Author Topic: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era  (Read 7627 times)

Niopsian

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I thought it might be fun to take another look at the epilogue to Surrender Your Dreams now that Hour of the Wolf is out and the ilClan era is upon us. For the longest time, it seemed like the events of the epilogue might be rendered non-canon. I was sure that such a ruling had been made, but as the Sarna note for the novel explains, Herb's statement regarding SYD did not explicitly declare it apocryphal, and so it remains canon.

So how well does it fit now in a post-Republic universe? And what clues might we be able to uncover using our newly updated factbase?

Let's find out.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Contaminated Zone A1 (Previously Breezewood)
Kwamashu
Former Duchy of Andurien
Fortress Republic +21 years

Right off the bat, we're told Kwamashu is in the Former Duchy of Andurien. Meaning the Duchy of Andurien is gone. Given that Ari Humphreys married Ilsa Centrella a few years back, is it too much to assume that Andurien is now a part of the Magistracy?

Well, perhaps, yes, because of this passage:

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Flagpoles marked one end of the plaza, though the flags that fluttered in the breeze were different than those that had flown over Kwamashu two decades earlier; different than any then known.
The Duchy of Andurien, then, is no more, but whatever it is a part of is new, as its flag is new as well. Is this the flag of a new Centrella dominated Capellan Empire? Signs are inconclusive but I am hoping yes.

There are also multiple flagpoles. Are they all flying the same flag, or are there multiple flags present? There doesn't seem to be a strong implication either way, in my opinion. If the latter, does it suggest that Kwamashu is a part of the Third League?

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Each year knights who had never made the pilgrimage came for the first time; every year time thinned the ranks of those who had come since the beginning."
This is where the timeline starts to get wonky, IMO. Kwamashu happened in 3138. Redburn and his Remnant forces are stuck defending Callison and the surrounding worlds up until 3149 when Levin is dispatched to bring them home to Terra. Fortress Republic was activated in 3135, meaning the gathering in the epilogue (FR+21) has to take place in 3156 - after the events of Hour of the Wolf, but only by 5 years. Not very long a time to be holding a gathering, honestly. It seems odd to be lamenting "how few remain" when you've only done something four times before.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Damien Redburn had died years ago in the way he deserved to die - in an epic battle that had strained their friendship nearly to the breaking point.
Er, okay. Seemed kind of beyond strained after Rock of the Republic, but your mileage may vary.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Jonah Levin had ensured that his friend had enjoyed a formal state funeral on Terra, after Fortress Republic had been broken and the great Liberation accomplished.
The man who ran a false flag operation, broke every rule of zellbrigen and came within an inch of murdering the future ilKhan/First Lord got a state funeral on Terra?

Great Liberation always seemed like a tell that The Republic won in the end, but the phrase has a certain Clan-like ring to it, so that tracks, still.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
This year's speech was being given by Vergessen, a strapping young man untouched by the chaotic years of Fortress Republic.
This is written to make it appear that the bad old days are long gone, but again, only five years have passed since the ilClannening.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Lady Synd, Vergessen's mother, had not attended the last three reunions.
So other than the first one, this is her only one.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
The older members of this gathering were fond of pointing to Vergessen and commenting that "back in the day, he would have made knight, or even paladin."
Back in the day, which was only half a decade ago. (Am I harping on this one point too much? It kind of feels like I am. Almost done, I promise.)

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
Hunter Mannheim's children had played important roles after Fortress Republic. Ron was known for his prowess as a MechWarrior and Judith Mannheim was an up-and-coming politician on Terra.
There are some interesting ways to parse this. The fact that Terra still has politicians who are not Warrior Caste members is somewhat surprising. (Taking 'politician' here to mean someone who achieves elected office rather than 'administrator' or 'functionary' who gets appointed by the Clan Council. Also, the fact that Ron is mentioned without his surname could be construed as meaning that he has been inducted into the Wolf Clan warrior caste.

Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe
"There are other memorials, like Fortress Wall in Geneve, where the Inner Sphere honors those who fell in service to The Republic."
Really? A monument to soldiers of The Republic on Alaric "I will tear down all symbols of your state and make it as if it never existed" Ward's Terra?

Something seemingly changes between what we see in Children of Kerensky/Hour of the Wolf and this point five years into the future. And if we look at the snippets from 3250 spread out in earlier products mentioning the office of Exarch as being a potentially ongoing thing then it points to Alaric having something of a change or heart. Or at least being forced to concede to the realities of his situation.

That's all, really, except for the thing about Paul Moon's age not lining up for Epilogue 2 to also be in 3156. I don't know what you can do about that but hand wave it away - Moon forgot how old he was, maybe?  ;D


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FaithBomb

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #1 on: 04 March 2021, 16:00:12 »
I believe it can all be explained by this: "Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe"
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Niopsian

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #2 on: 04 March 2021, 17:55:49 »
I believe it can all be explained by this: "Quote from: Surrender Your Dreams, Blaine Pardoe"

They're the ones that chose to die on the "it's still canon, it's still good!" hill. I'm just trying to make it make sense.   ;)


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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #3 on: 05 March 2021, 00:14:24 »
It’s canon until it’s not. We’ll see if the sourcebook and it later FM and fiction say anything.
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Frabby

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #4 on: 05 March 2021, 01:36:21 »
Nice analysis Niopsian.

The whole ilClan idea is a stillborn concept, created by a psychopath/sociopath and further shaped by Clan politics from there. I can totally see the entire thing failing reality check and crashing down around Alaric's ears in no time, to be replaced by an unrecognizable amalgam of ilClan, Fidelis trans-Clan, and Republic structures styling themselves as an ilClan.

CGL have already hinted that the whole shebang is facing interesting times right off the bat. Alaric is so spent as a character that he might have a date with an ilBar of ilSoap IIC soon, to hasten the transformation.
« Last Edit: 05 March 2021, 01:38:50 by Frabby »
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Ruger

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #5 on: 05 March 2021, 05:22:34 »
Sure that “Fortress Republic+21 years” doesn’t mean from the LAST year of the Fortress + 21 years instead of the first year of it? So, either from 3151 (last year of the actual RotS) or from whenever the Wolves allow the system to stop functioning?

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hf22

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #6 on: 05 March 2021, 06:41:04 »
My take is it pretty much still works as canon, but the Kwamashu chapter has been pushed out further into the timeline, so "+21 years" likely now has to be read as "more than 21 years" after Fortress Republic (given the rest of the book chapters are dated from something to do with when the wall went up).

The dating of the Custos "Finis 2" chapter is also a bit difficult, given it notes that the "custos had met Levin after the Great Liberation" etc, but it now presumably has to be understood to refer to the events immediately prior to the taking of Terra (i.e. Levin on Callison and Alaric on New Earth).


Wrangler

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #7 on: 05 March 2021, 07:26:22 »
This would been different future.  New kind Republic exists in this timeline.

Someone should write up their own fan source book as alternate timeline like Empires Aflame.

That totally thrown into the garbage now.   Frankly i do find it hard to believe that ilClan would be honoring Republic veterans.  Due to the dishonorable actions they did during the Trials of Terra.  Had they been honorable, maybe...i doubt it now unless some Fiat crashes into the plot.
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Niopsian

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #8 on: 05 March 2021, 08:42:17 »
Sure that “Fortress Republic+21 years” doesn’t mean from the LAST year of the Fortress + 21 years instead of the first year of it? So, either from 3151 (last year of the actual RotS) or from whenever the Wolves allow the system to stop functioning?

Ruger

I don't think so - ALL of the dates in SYD are based around the Fortress wall going up. The aftermath of Kwamashu in Chapter One is denoted as Fortress Republic (+866 days). And that certainly wasn't after 3151.

For the sake of canon, I suppose it's possible that we say JUST the two epilogues' time stamps have a different meaning from the rest, but then you create an issue by having Paul Moon's epilogue contradict Forever Faithful. If you're REALLY willing to give benefit of the doubt and leave Finis 2 where it's at and bump Finis 1 into the 3170s then maybe it all works out, but that's an awful lot of bending to do.  ;D


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FaithBomb

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #9 on: 05 March 2021, 16:37:04 »
This would been different future.  New kind Republic exists in this timeline.

Someone should write up their own fan source book as alternate timeline like Empires Aflame.

That totally thrown into the garbage now.   Frankly i do find it hard to believe that ilClan would be honoring Republic veterans.  Due to the dishonorable actions they did during the Trials of Terra.  Had they been honorable, maybe...i doubt it now unless some Fiat crashes into the plot.

Honor might have to take a back seat to expediency. The ilClan will need everything it can to keep itself alive, and making more enemies than it has to doesn't make sense (well, other than the Dragoon's nonsense, but whatever)
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Marveryn

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #10 on: 06 March 2021, 03:26:05 »
This would been different future.  New kind Republic exists in this timeline.

Someone should write up their own fan source book as alternate timeline like Empires Aflame.

That totally thrown into the garbage now.   Frankly i do find it hard to believe that ilClan would be honoring Republic veterans.  Due to the dishonorable actions they did during the Trials of Terra.  Had they been honorable, maybe...i doubt it now unless some Fiat crashes into the plot.

Yet they had no problem with using those same vets against the falcons.  In fact plan on it.  It would not be that far fetch that while they think stone was an a hole they perhaps dont' feel the same way as the line troops

Marveryn

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #11 on: 06 March 2021, 03:27:59 »
Honor might have to take a back seat to expediency. The ilClan will need everything it can to keep itself alive, and making more enemies than it has to doesn't make sense (well, other than the Dragoon's nonsense, but whatever)

Plus we already know of one enemy that is knock house Liao and possible a clan enemy with Hell Horse in a trial of refusal.

jimdigris

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #12 on: 21 March 2021, 15:58:54 »
Frankly i do find it hard to believe that ilClan would be honoring Republic veterans.  Due to the dishonorable actions they did during the Trials of Terra.  Had they been honorable, maybe...i doubt it now unless some Fiat crashes into the plot.
If memory serves correctly, Alaric made note that the Republic troops fought well in Hour of the Wolf.  There was no mention of him regarding them as dishonorable.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #13 on: 21 March 2021, 21:50:33 »
Well the head hunter attacks seemed to upset him quite a bit, along with the rest of his command staff.
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FaithBomb

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #14 on: 21 March 2021, 22:21:05 »
Well the head hunter attacks seemed to upset him quite a bit, along with the rest of his command staff.

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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #15 on: 21 March 2021, 23:44:45 »
Wouldn't you be?

I mean yes, but it wasn’t unexpected. It’s probably dishonorable do do that but this was war, not some trial bullsh*t.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #16 on: 22 March 2021, 00:29:15 »
I mean yes, but it wasn’t unexpected. It’s probably dishonorable do do that but this was war, not some trial bullsh*t.

Headhunting attacks were standard operating procedure for the clans during the invasion. The Wolves even made a specialized elemental suit for the job. Clan headhunting attacks were a plot point on multiple occasions.
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Re: Rereading the Surrender Your Dreams Epilogue in the ilClan Era
« Reply #17 on: 22 March 2021, 04:00:05 »
Headhunting attacks were standard operating procedure for the clans during the invasion. The Wolves even made a specialized elemental suit for the job. Clan headhunting attacks were a plot point on multiple occasions.

The headhunting wasn't the dishonorable part. That it was a false flag operation, that was what made it dishonorable.
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