Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[DOC_Agren]

tagging in to follow

[truetanker]

tagging in to follow

Never on time... sigh.

Always late, 8).

TT

[Jellico]

Just taking time to think about it.

Given a standard DCMS regiment of 108 Mech, 36 ASF, 36 tanks, and a regiment of infantry (756 PBIs with transport. Less with BA).

Would a 3rd line, regular skill, Phalanx of 90 tanks (3 Trinaries) and a Trinary of conventional infantry attached to a 2nd line Cluster be enough for survival in a defensive operation?

[nova_dew]

Just taking time to think about it.

Given a standard DCMS regiment of 108 Mech, 36 ASF, 36 tanks, and a regiment of infantry (756 PBIs with transport. Less with BA).

Would a 3rd line, regular skill, Phalanx of 90 tanks (3 Trinaries) and a Trinary of conventional infantry attached to a 2nd line Cluster be enough for survival in a defensive operation?

I think that needs taking to MM, that's a lot of tanks, since as you said the 2nd line clusters kept a lot of their tank trinaries from the DA's, one at least claiming an extra, but the DCMS has a lot of Mechs and well this is BT, also the DCMS maybe outnumber us in the air depending on ASF Binary or Trinary, we do have more clan tech, and the Axel IIC either has a LPL or a TC.

I would go with the cop-out answer of what serves the plot for 70 points? but it could be a believable loss for either side with little in the way of hand waving, inexperience in the 3rd line forces leaving things exposed, rushed defense's, vs dug in defenses, home ground advantage, dirty fighting picked up from the RasRep side, ect.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Probably not. Obviously it depends on the skill parity and the composition of the two groups: an Elite Assault Tank Cluster will flatten a green light regiment.

But Aerospace and twice the amount of infantry PLUS mechs and tanks is a hard thing to fight with just three + regular rated Trinaries. Not impossible but definitely a tripwire force IMO. If communications were up it might buy enough time to delay for reinforcements. The type of defensive options (terrain, fortifications, preparations, etc) also matter but it’s a lopsided fight.

EDIT: Era matters too: tech level in 3050 favors the Clans with a big advantage (plot too lol)

[Foxx Ital]

Sounds like the hueys are gonna be putting in the work!

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Our regular tanks are now back to regular regular, so 4/5. So 90 vees there plus 45 mechs, another 30 vees, maybe 25-50BA (with limited mechanized options or heavier weight units) and 20-30 fighters? Let’s discount the non-BA infantry on both sides.

We are now roughly equal in tank size, and in universe have had time to build a doctrine. Fighters at best could almost even out. Mechs are outdone at greater than 2-1. Clan tech in all these cases can hide a lot of sins, idk about that many. The majority of the BA could be stranded by knocking out transport vehicles, or would be slower and/or more specialized as seen in our DD second line RAT. Not enough omnis to mechanize fully, although a doctrinal shift (that almost had to have happened) would help here as well. Maybe the IS would have a company or battalion of BA. Even still we win here with how much better our BA is.

In universe it would come down to skill of the mechwarriors. On the table top unless you can play the range game for a long time IS has too much more armor to go through.

[Jellico]

To be clear what I am thinking.

The Dominion touman is already too big to handle. You can't just add Clusters willy-nilly. Certainly not Mech Clusters.

The DC is full of Clantech now. You can't rely on that 20% extra capability. Numbers have to be closer.

The Ashigaru Initiatives pretty much guarantee this war is going to get democratised. We have out own conscription option so why not codify that a bit?

I miss the Valkyries, Phalanxes, and Claws. While the Valkyries pretty much have to be point defense for major worlds like Rasalhague and Alshain (codifying assets on naval assets is always a bad idea and should be kept vague). But the Phalanxes and Claws can be reimagined as 3rd line units to beef up other Clusters.

So that is why I am thinking tanks and conventional infantry.

A Claw would be 2 Trinaries of BA (150), a Trinary of conventional (375), and enough APCs/IFs to move them.

The Phalanx is mentioned above.

Pure speculation of course. I genuinely have no clue of what is coming in the future.

[Foxx Ital]

I wouldnt mind seeing something kind of like the raven Triad.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I wouldnt mind seeing something kind of like the raven Triad.

That is nominally what our keshiks are; Mech binary, ba binary, and a star of fighters and one of artillery.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I wouldn’t mind a general support cluster of
2 Trinary Vee, 1 Binary aero, 1 binary artillery, 2 trinary BA, 1 mixed trinary of 20 transports and 5 dasher. Slightly oversized but when supporting a naked front line cluster it really adds some ballast and the numbers can add up.

Front line: 60 mechs, 75 BA (if we have room to supernova directly), 30 fighters.
Adds in 60 vees, 20 more fighters (shores up the vehicle disparity still there), 20 artillery (roughly equal to the battalion of artillery common in RCTs), enough BA to supernova 2 mech trinaries, and some transports/infantry support.

[Natasha Kerensky]

The old Ice Hellion Flurry Clusters are another potential model/precedent.

[nova_dew]

(warning this post is a train of thought and random rambling post, grammar went on holiday and sentence structure went out behind the privy with a gun and never returned)

I really don't think we're as over strength as people think, we have what amounts to about 11 Regiments of Mechs, the same number of Vehicles Regiments, ASF Regiments, and half as many BA Regiments, if you took out the tech advantage, a Cluster is just a reinforced Battalion of Mechs, (45 vs Battalions 36 or 40 with a command lance), a short Battalion of Vehicles (30 to a battalions 36) and short Wing of ASF (again 30 vs 36) and a short company of BA (50 vs 64) or a short company plus a battalion if it's a Trinary of BA (75 vs 80),

The only way we should be fighting Regiments is with Galaxies, and we have as many of those in total as the Combine has (in 3145) just on our boarder, granted Clan forces are more organized along an RCT model just more SLDF Independent Regiment like, so SLDF RCTs... and the DCMS should be bringing support units to bump up their standard Regiments (Ashigaru units), let us have a proper war before we replay the 3rd SW again for the third or fourth time, I've forgotten how many times TPTB have tried to reset it to the constant boring stalemate of military actions doing and meaning next to nothing, ok it might not be that, but the last time we did this, it was oh the RotS era and all but what 5 worlds we took in a war we had to give back?, which does raise a point with DD, the people of Combine decent, they didn't go back to the Combine when given the chance, it's canonical that the RasDom is better than the Combine :P (to some people, in universe) and gives more weight to their arguments in the Vote, "What I have is better than there, but it's not perfect, maybe they (the 3rd SL) can make it better", just wish we had more info before hand about stuff going on, yeah i know faction books don't sell well, but they can add so much to a faction that wont fit a conflict based book, and really useful for the TTRPG side, that seems to have been forgotten about.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/ask-the-lead-developers/rasdom-omega-galaxy/msg1909717/#new

Omega is leaving the old paint scheme behind.

[Zeruel]

I really don't think we're as over strength as people think

The only way we should be fighting Regiments is with Galaxies

part of the problem with the advance of time is that IS tech catches up to Clan tech, and Clan tech also expands to IS factions
where before a Clan Cluster did in fact equal an IS regiment due to tech and skill levels, there is more parity, but Clan toumans don't expand to make up for the tech parity coming closer

but I don't think we've necessarily reached a Galaxy = a regiment just yet

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Did we actually take Tomans? I can’t see what else establish a bridgehead, ‘encountering a defending battalion, and securing what seems like the capital city could mean.

P88

[Jellico]

Did we actually take Tomans? I can’t see what else establish a bridgehead, ‘encountering a defending battalion, and securing what seems like the capital city could mean.

P88

It is intentionally vague. You can't really start taking worlds off a faction that barely exists yet. For all I know we made contact and retreated.

Personally I would like to start selling them weapons to resist the Lyrans and build a nice little friendly buffer state. I don't want two Great Houses on the borders.

[BrianDavion]

It is intentionally vague. You can't really start taking worlds off a faction that barely exists yet. For all I know we made contact and retreated.

Personally I would like to start selling them weapons to resist the Lyrans and build a nice little friendly buffer state. I don't want two Great Houses on the borders.

I think more likely the bears provoke the tamar pact rejoining the LC. Tamar rising notes that the news of the ghost bear attack comes right as Roderik Steiner comes to discuss things with the Tamar pact. if I was running the tamar pact I'd suddenly be panicing and wanting to reinforce my defences to prevent a ghost bear conquest

[CJC070]

part of the problem with the advance of time is that IS tech catches up to Clan tech, and Clan tech also expands to IS factions
where before a Clan Cluster did in fact equal an IS regiment due to tech and skill levels, there is more parity, but Clan toumans don't expand to make up for the tech parity coming closer

but I don't think we've necessarily reached a Galaxy = a regiment just yet

Also remember one point of armour is two tanks.  If you have a trinary of tanks that ups the number of “bodies” on the ground.  Realistically to even out the two forces if given the same tech level all you really need to face a regiment of 120 mechs is two clusters of 60 points of mechs each.  Yes armour and aerospace shifts your math a bit but I imagine that the Clans will adapt to where one cluster will still equal one regiment.

[BrianDavion]

The big problem with mech numbers that I see is, despite the fact that every year the comparison gets sillier and sillier, a cluster is still being treated as equal to a regiment. We saw it on Terra. ignoring the fact that the tech levels between forces where proably pretty damn close to equal.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Also remember one point of armour is two tanks.  If you have a trinary of tanks that ups the number of “bodies” on the ground.  Realistically to even out the two forces if given the same tech level all you really need to face a regiment of 120 mechs is two clusters of 60 points of mechs each.  Yes armour and aerospace shifts your math a bit but I imagine that the Clans will adapt to where one cluster will still equal one regiment.

No one has forgotten the 2-1 on vees and planes.

as of now we don’t use 4 mech trinaries. We stupidly run 45 with an elemental trinary, plus some planes. To reach 60 we’d need to supernova that elemental trinary, and preferably a mech trianry or too as well.

Look at the regiments in each of the new books;Mech regiment plus they have a wing or two of planes, 1-4 regiments of vees (the Davion ones have mostly been restored to full RCTs), 2-3 battalions of BA, 1-3 regiments of CI, and an arty battalion.

And also if we bump up our clusters, our neighbors need to too, as they are also clan(ish).

[Church14]

The big problem with mech numbers that I see is, despite the fact that every year the comparison gets sillier and sillier, a cluster is still being treated as equal to a regiment. We saw it on Terra. ignoring the fact that the tech levels between forces where proably pretty damn close to equal.

Yeah… the era hasn’t managed stability on this.
Mogyorod: a cluster or Horses gets a bloody nose from a Marches battalion, falls back

New Olympia: 2 clusters and a sibko are stalemated against 5 battalions mechs, regiment tanks, regiment infantry

Geinah: goons drop one assault battalion and break a cluster and Keshik

Terra we saw a large cluster (8 trinaries, so basically 2 clusters) take on 2 regiments mechs and 7 of tanks and curb stomp them. But Terra was the sound of the author mashing forces together with zero ****** about actual numbers and then screaming “the RAF loses!” more than an actual respectable story.


The setting right now swings wildly on clan cluster vs regiment efficacy depending on the faction’s level of protag status.

[Jellico]

Back in Endless 67 I took what we got in FM WC. Generally the front line Clusters were all over the place. But we mostly have Invading Clans for that. There are some 60 Mech Clusters. There are some 30 Mech Clusters. There are some Aero and BA Trinaries. There are some Aero and BA Binaries. There was an assault Cluster or two with no ASF at all.
Short version for second line. 45 Mechs, 25 ASF (20 or 30), 40-60ish BA split across Novas and a Trinary/Binary.

Invading Clans screwed us here as our touman was built to a 3050 aesthetic. Whoever built the Adders or Horses just piled on the hardware to use as much as possible while staying within the standard 5 Trinaries.

I  walked away feeling you couldn't look at the touman as single independent Clusters. Rather they were mix and match. Intended to combine two or three Clusters  as a custom force. Unfortunately the briefness of following Field Manuals didn't really allow that to be explored. Especially as too many fell into the Cluster =Regiment trap.

As of 3145
Theta is 45 Mechs with Novas, a Trinary of tanks, a Supernova of BA with transport, and the usual ASF.
Kappa is 45 Mechs,  20/30 ASF (check FMWC), but the BA Novas use shuttles.
Tau is 45, 20/30 ASF, 20 tanks and the usual BA. The Bear Regulars don't use tanks cause they think they are frontline.
Tundra, Taiga, and Polar are basically the same as Theta with prefered fighting styles.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

We just saw Taiga cluster, the 3 Freemen. They have a single trinary of mechs.

I think we are more or less stuck in the cluster to regiment dynamic. Every novel has made it that way, along with plenty of sourcebooks. I agree that clusters should be deployed in pairs or work together against regiments.

 But the expansion of RCT type formations to most IS factions, clans look down on vees (less so anymore but still, they aren’t in front line clusters for a couple different reasons), near tech parity, and that we can no longer Blitzkriege and rely on moronic commanders to accept duels or limited trials even paired/tripled up clusters don’t have the ballast.

I maintain the command nova should be rolled out across the toumen; mech, BA, support element as a single star/nova. At least in front/second line units. Add in some of the third line formations put forth by Jellico this would be competitive.

75 mechs, 375 BA, 90 tank, 30 arty, 30 planes.

[nova_dew]

Back in Endless 67 I took what we got in FM WC. Generally the front line Clusters were all over the place. But we mostly have Invading Clans for that. There are some 60 Mech Clusters. There are some 30 Mech Clusters. There are some Aero and BA Trinaries. There are some Aero and BA Binaries. There was an assault Cluster or two with no ASF at all.
Short version for second line. 45 Mechs, 25 ASF (20 or 30), 40-60ish BA split across Novas and a Trinary/Binary.

Invading Clans screwed us here as our touman was built to a 3050 aesthetic. Whoever built the Adders or Horses just piled on the hardware to use as much as possible while staying within the standard 5 Trinaries.

I  walked away feeling you couldn't look at the touman as single independent Clusters. Rather they were mix and match. Intended to combine two or three Clusters  as a custom force. Unfortunately the briefness of following Field Manuals didn't really allow that to be explored. Especially as too many fell into the Cluster =Regiment trap.

As of 3145
Theta is 45 Mechs with Novas, a Trinary of tanks, a Supernova of BA with transport, and the usual ASF.
Kappa is 45 Mechs,  20/30 ASF (check FMWC), but the BA Novas use shuttles.
Tau is 45, 20/30 ASF, 20 tanks and the usual BA. The Bear Regulars don't use tanks cause they think they are frontline.
Tundra, Taiga, and Polar are basically the same as Theta with prefered fighting styles.

Hopefully what ever happens with the DC allows TPTB to sort things out, we haven't really fought since the second Combine-Dominion war, so this one could be used as a wake up call for reforms, maybe fold clusters together to double up, one front line and one second line.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity.  Make elstars a thing and give them advantages.  Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos.  Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis.  Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.

There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all.  It would probably balloon BV per unit.  But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.

[nova_dew]

Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity.  Make elstars a thing and give them advantages.  Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos.  Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis.  Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.

There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all.  It would probably balloon BV per unit.  But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.

I think we could be seeing that set up with the likes of the Alpha Wolf and other mech's with newer tech, poor Horses getting hand me downs it seems, everyone else getting new construction tech, now excuse me a sec I need to see what a ROtter would be like with Ferro-lamellar would be like...

[Church14]

Another way to go would be to substantively improve the quality of Clan forces, rather then the quantity.  Make elstars a thing and give them advantages.  Mainstream interface cockpits and EI tattoos.  Normalize stealth layers on frontline omnis.  Make use of ferro-lamellor and ballistic-reinforced armors, reinforced structure, and AES and TSM widespread.

There’s a lot of tech that’s underutilized or used little at all.  It would probably balloon BV per unit.  But it would give the Clans a distinct technical advantage once again.

I’d rather see a more unified tech base with the clan/IS mech divide being doctrinal choices. That the IS is still behind technologically (to me) feels contrived already. A big surge forward for clan tech that leaves IS behind again just sounds… boring.

The ideas put out here, where clusters change in size and composition to match an IS regiment, feels better. It leaves room for IS to have crack units that punch above their weight instead of just “tough, your mechs are worse, you gotta bring more.”

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot

Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,

For a gain of about 10 armor points (in 5 damage groupings) among other things, for a lot of esoteric and extra rules. Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all. And in universe it’s a lot of work to justify that large shift.

Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).

[tassa_kay]

‘unity’

 ;D