Repost: Mech of the Week redux: Gargoyle / Man O' War (9/12/2008) - by jymset

[Terrace]

The Prime is almost perfectly suited for anti-vehicle operations. I just put a single one with an elite pilot up against two full lances of Light SRM Carriers. Walked away with eight kills, though things got a little hairy once I got a little too close and TACs gave me a couple engine hits and a bit of gyro damage. On the other hand, by the end they were exploding just from me bathing them in salvos of Inferno SRMs (having run out of ammo for the LB 5-Xs by this point).

[ManicMaestro]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I think this is pertinent to a discussion about the Gargoyle.

I was going through the Wolf Clan phone-book the other day and I had a thought about why clan Wolf would build both the Gargoyle and the Timber Wolf. Even in the clans, where economics takes back seat to butt-kicking, endo steel requires orbital factories. With the clan home-worlds being so resource poor, I think the Gargoyle serves as a "budget" alternative to the T-Wolf. Yes you lose some capability, but it is no doubt an effective mech and with the number of heavy cav designs the Wolves field, the Garg could just be a case of needing more mechs than the factories can keep up with.

This is especially true when you think about the other Wolf-produced omnis, the Adder and Ice Ferret. Maybe even a powerful clan does not have enough endo steel production to support three full mech lines, and the Gargoyle is closer in power to the T-wolf than any similar alternative would be to the ferret and adder.

I also like to think of this as the other reason that so many of the original 16 omnis didn't use endo. There just may not have been sufficient resources to build the number of mechs the clans needed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem with that hypothesis is that the Man O' War is more expensive than the Mad Cat, thanks to packing a 400 XL Engine.

[ManicMaestro]

I agree the engine is very expensive. However, my thought was more to a potential scarcity of Endo steel. "Money" may not have been the primary constraint on mech production and so potentially the increased costs of the engine to get the same movement profile were worth it. Whether the same effect could have been more efficient at another weight class I'll leave to the folks that know the engineering better than I do.

[Caedis Animus]

I'd assume a 375 and 400 XL Engine both require similar materials to make, as there's no reason why they'd be all that different. I'd say that theory holds water for the resource-tight Clans, considering money is less of a concern for them than raw materials.

[Empyrus]

Endo-steel requires orbital factories, unlike ferro-fibrous, XL engines and double heat sinks. Endo-steel repairs are more problematic because we're dealing with internal structure. And since it is rarer than standard structure due to its manufacturing requirements, endo-steel is a logistical problem.
One of the Wolves' better points has always been their good logistics. Consider their Inner Sphere conquest and Tukayyid campaign. (This is also presumably the reason why they thought they could keep Homeworlds-Inner Sphere supply lines working rather than starting manufacturing in local factories, naturally this plan put all eggs in one basket...) But even with good logistics, there are limits. So, they make a superb 'Mech for their own purposes but also make a bit different 'Mech for their own purposes and for trading.

So, yeah, in a sense the Gargoyle feels like an "export version". Though this feels as if they were selling F/A-18 (medium-weight multirole plane) to customers who really want/need F-16 (light-weight air superiority fighter).

The Gargoyle does supplement the Timber Wolf in some ways: Namely carrying battle armor and if we look at the Gargoyle Prime, anti-air/anti-vehicle support (hence my F/A-18 comparison); whereas the Timber Wolf is not a great BA taxi without sacrificing some attack capability, and Timber Wolf configurations are often seemingly dedicated for killing 'Mechs.

I'm going to assume the Wolves figured that other Clans would be interested in the Gargoyle because it descents from the Woodsman, which must've been highly regarded given how good it is. Figure bidding tactics might be in play here too: Anytime the Timber Wolf manufacturing rights are sought, they'd be defended with elite forces, while the Gargoyle wouldn't be controlled as tightly, further deflecting attention from Timber Wolves and keeping them to the Wolves themselves.


EDIT The major flaw here is that you could squeeze what the Gargoyle does to a smaller and cheaper chassis without losing anything really...

[Colt Ward]

Except for the DHS in the engine . . . you make it smaller and you lose IS points and start taking up criticals to get the same number.

[Sabelkatten]

Except for the DHS in the engine . . . you make it smaller and you lose IS points and start taking up criticals to get the same number.

IIRC it has so much space and so little tonnage you can't fill it up even if you spend the entire tonnage on DHS... ::)

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but when you start talking about crit-intensive gear then it starts to matter.  Its part of the reason the Timberwolf is better with energy/missiles rather than big guns b/c of the crit spaces available.

[Empyrus]

I mocked up a 65/70-ton Gargoyle with the same number of heat sinks (ie bunch ended up fixed elsewher). No problems whatsoever. Basically all configurations could be retained as they were, AND there was extra tonnage left to boot.

EDIT I see non-engine heat sinks as a bonus anyway, means i got critical hit sinks to draw fire away from weapons and ammo...
EDIT The Gargoyle does not have enough free tonnage that large weapon sizes would ever become a problem anyhow, even with extra tonnage from lighter chassis.