What would you bid to take this planet?

[Liam's Ghost]

(Note for the Mods: I'm pretty sure I put this in the right place. This one doesn't go into the nitty gritty tabletop details like the last one did, so it seems more appropriate for the clan discussion rather than one of the game discussion board. Apologies if you feel the need to move it.)

Backstory: The Ice Hellions have invaded the Inner Sphere in the year 3001. (Note: Not up for discussion. Kinda a campaign point which was previously discussed in detail elsewhere).

The planet of Somerset was attacked once already, however the previous attackers botched the job. The prior commander arranged after a few days of frustration and miscommunication for a single small scale battle to decide things, and got wrecked, falling after only twenty seconds of battle against a lance of spheroids. (also a campaign point, though only half of that was skill. The final shot that downed him was luck).

Since the Hellions are badly overextended, it's taken two months to pull together a second strike. There will be no formal challenge issued to the spheroids, since that went so badly last time. However, rival commanders must bid for the right to lead the second attack.

(CLARIFICATION: I'm not asking for volunteers to join the game. The winning bid will be used by me as the attacking force in the next stage of the campaign).

The known defenders include a battalion of battlemechs, believed to be operated primarily by cadets. In addition, there is a regiment of vehicle units and three to five  of conventional infantry. The defenders also have artillery, however they are not believed to have aerospace forces still available to them.

The forces available for the attack include the following:
9 stars of front line battlemechs
6 stars of second line battlemechs
2 stars of front line aerofighters
5 stars of elementals
3 stars of conventional vehicles
3 stars of conventional infantry

No warships are available to provide fire support, so no, you don't get to bombard the planet and call it good.

Lowest bid will be the force I'll use for the second battle, unless it's a joke bid of course.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

A Mech battalion and a division's worth of supporting troops is enough numbers that the golden BB principle is no joke.  Furthermore I'm presuming that since no batchall is being offered there's no expectation of a setpiece Trial of Position and this is going to be an "unClanlike" ground out conquest.  So while there's hordes of sphereoids, the majority of the conventional forces would be assorted groups defending sites across the planet and therefore needn't be engaged and would presumably surrender after the bulk of the defenders have been engaged and defeated.

2 Stars of Omnimechs should be sufficient to defeat even a massed battalion of 3025 mechs, especially ones believed to be piloted and maintained by cadets.  And of course Omnis can be reconfigured for whatever kind of battle is met by the defenders.  2 stars of Elementals would be enough to hold any objective long enough for "non bid" forces to come in and secure.  And would also presumably serve admirably as terror weapons vs Sphereoids of 3001.  Even if not, that many elementals is what I consider a viable force multiplication to help 10 Omnis face off against large numbers of supporting conventionals.  This being an "UnClanlike" conquest, some supporting recon is going to be necessary to find sphereoid defenders and to warn of their movements.  And again with this many defending conventional forces, some aerial recon/ground support forces will probably be prudent.

I'd propose a Binary Nova augmented by 2 points of Recon tanks (or VTOLs) and 1 point of Aerospace fighters.

[truetanker]

I'll agree with your intel trothkin Tai, but your looking for a sweep attack to fail.

I Bid:
A Binary Nova of Frontline Omni and Elementals, a supporting Star of Secondline 'Mechs and a single Nova of Tanks with Infantry. Also includes a Carrier dropship worth of Aerospace fighters for CAP.

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Eh, you've got me second guessing.  I suppose for round numbers' sake, I'd revise my bid to be the Binary Nova plus a Mixed Star of Tanks/ASFs.  (Call it 4 points of tanks, 1 of ASFs)

of course my bid is going with the understanding that a bid isn't attrited over the course of a campaign.  E.G. If there's battle losses the bid strength gets replenished back to full force as logistics allow.  If you're doing it where the force is not allowed to replenish attrition prior to the conclusion of the campaign, it'd make for a completely different bid...

[truetanker]

OOC: You issue a batchall to see who would win with the lowest amount, but calling in the rest to replenish is consider a sign of weakness... classic CIH history, famous Tantrums and all!

IC: Your final answer trothkin? < Raises eyebrow >

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

[Tai Dai Cultist]

OOC: You issue a batchall to see who would win with the lowest amount, but calling in the rest to replenish is consider a sign of weakness... classic CIH history, famous Tantrums and all!

Well, the way the Clans' bids worked at the macro scale in the case of REVIVAL was that battle losses absolutely could be replenished... none of the Clans were expecting or expected to conquer the Inner Sphere with exactly the mechs and mechwarriors with which they initially struck in 3049.  They even got to bring in PGCs to hold territory so that their bid forces didn't have to get diluted by holding territory.  I'm presuming that's all working the same way at this smaller granularity of a single planet... the forces included in the bid neither have to hold territory nor have to suffer being whittled down in number over the course of several battles.  If those assumptions aren't how Liam is doing it.. yeah then my bid is way off.

However if both of those assumptions jive with how the campaign would be run ICly... then yep.  I'm confident that a reinforced Trinary is sufficient to smash anything and everything the sphereoids could put together at once on anywhere on the planet.  It'd probably be overkill, even.  The only risks are in being forced into multiple, simultaneous battles/fronts... and in being underbid :D

[Liam's Ghost]

Well, I should point out that in the event the attackers find themselves in over their head, they can call in forces equal to previous (which we will assume any larger bids are) bids, up to the largest, with increasing losses of honor.

To be perfectly honest, though, the Ice Hellions are still figuring out this whole "conquer an entire planet of a quarter billion people" thing.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Heh.  To be fair, neither FASA, WizKids, nor CGL ever figured out how Clanners managed to conquer massive IS populations either.

While I don't intend to derail the thread into another "size of planetary militias" argument, I am curious if in your example the Hellions brought Solahma infantry and Paramilitaries and if so, how much is available for holding territory during (and presumably after) the conquest.

[truetanker]

In that case, I'll reduce my Bid of support Star of Secondline to three Points and a Rouge Element of Huey, I'll further reduce my single Star of Aero to just to three Points as well.

Final Bid is:

A Binary Nova of Frontline Omni and Elementals, a supporting understrength Star of three Points of Secondline 'Mechs with an additional Rouge Point of Huey along with a single Nova of Tanks with attached Infantry. Including my modified bid of three Points of Aero for Ground support.

Your counterbid, if you dare? < Crosses arms with flair >

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

( I too am curious, wich is why I stated a Nova of Tanks with Infantry as supporting role. TT )

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I think I'm still under your bid, Tanker.  If a Nova counts as two stars, and a Nova Binary counts as 4 stars, then:

My bid (Nova Binary + Mixed Star of tanks/ASFs) is 5 stars.
Your bid is 7 stars.

Even if the evaluation isn't by number of stars (or points), our bids both match the Binary Nova.  I'm adding a lot less supporting forces than you are, so either way I think I'm under :D  Still, I suppose there's room to debate which Binary Nova underbids which, if we were to go down into the nitty gritty of dictating specific chassis to be used.  But not only is it easier OOCly, I'd imagine ICly the commanders wouldn't want to hamstring themselves by forgoing the option to swap out which 10 omnimechs they're using for this battle or that one...

[GermanSumo]

*another officer steps forward*

Brothers Tanker and Tai Dai,

this is madness and a waste of ressources. i doubt, either of you will be able to take the planet with these forces. i wish, you would be THAT good. But this is the eagerness to revenge the first invasion getting the better of you two. i am not willing to let you jeopardize our whole operation. you two made it so there is no more honor to be gained in this bid. so i will put the clans interest before my personal honor.

i bid:
1 Star OmniMechs
all 3 Stars of Secondliners
2 Stars of Battle Armor
3 Stars of Conventional Vehicels
3 Stars of Infantry
and i a single Star of Aerospace Fighters

and i immediatly reduce it to

1 Star of OmniMechs
1 Star of Battle Armor
and the single Star of Aerospace Fighters

I know this will make you angry. And after my forces of the first bid defeated the spheroid-surats AND i am still alive, i shall face you ambitious ristars in a circle of equals. even at the same time. i will not see the clan loose to the spheroids because of the personal honor of you young.
dare to underbid this.

[Wotan]

While that sounds like a true Hellion bid GermanSumo, it will fail.

Per the given story the defenders are already warned. So the intel is weak at best. More defenders are likely in the meanwhile. And they will most likely have build fortifications - an expected battlefield the Hellions are ill prepared.
Most of your bids seem to assume that you have average tonnage on your own mechs. But for my understanding Hellions stars are lighter than usual - while the defenders on Somerset do have possession of heavy and most likely also some assault equipment (at least on the tanks).
So it is not only a question of numbers, but also to consider weight.

To compensate that and to have enough units to attack all the targets, i would go with two supernova binaries of omnimechs and a star of omnifighters. Tanks and conventional infantry are not worth to take part on that mission - same for secondline mech units.

[snewsom2997]

I don't know, which gets you more points in the Clans, wining or winning honorably? Against Dirty Spheroids, I expect winning is enough.

I bid 1 Trinary of Omnimechs, 1 Trinary of 2ndLine mechs, 1 Trinary of Combat Vehicles, with a fair number of Huey's, all the Elementals, and a Star of ASF, with several Kirghiz Elemental Transports for Headhunter Squads.

Also will on planet transport via drop ship be available and does Clan IH have ASF Superiority?

Combat Drop, Hit, load up the dropper move to next target, wash rinse repeat. String the Lyrans out all over the planet, destroy them lance by lance as they are sent to defend far flung targets, using Zeus and Banshee Mechs as flankers.

[GermanSumo]

well spoken, warrior wotan. i agree with most of your assessment. but i disagree with your conclusion. i bid all our conventional forces to give at least THEM a bit of glory defeating the spheroid surats. AND to let our young, ambitious brothers a chance to see and learn from our sacrifice. ultimatly i am convinced, our elders are enough to defeat the spheroids. it will cost them. but they are still clan. but you are welcome to go ahead with your bid. i would be honoured to fight by your side. and show the young ones AND the house lord lackeys how strong real clan warriors are. without totally wasting our forces in ambition.

[Wotan]

I'm not a specialist for Hellion doctrin, but what i understand from FM Crusader Clans the Hellions didn't field that much tanks in the given time. Flurry units are new unit. Before that i don't see any tanks or conventional infantry mentioned.
And Flurries are little more than cannon fodder - nothing a commander willingly share the pride to win a trial of possession of Somerset.

Hellions are proud of their frontline units, proud of their trueborns. Freeborns, secondline units and all the rest are considered crap. We haven't seen any clan so far using crap for an important task. Thats not the philosophy.

So while any IS commander would use the opportunity for tanks and infantry, a clan commander will not. So i stay with my bid limited to frontline units. We don't share that glory with any disgraced old or freeborn warriors.

[Liam's Ghost]

Clarification: The hellions brought everything they could load up and carry with them, and are also stretched terribly thin. They've formed something not too dissimilar to flurries to help them deal with the expected occupation and add extra bodies.

Of course, they're also a new concept, with all that implies to how traditional units might see them.

What I'm saying is there's not really a "wrong" answer over whether or not they would be included, so I added them for the sake of completeness and left it up to the bidders over whether they would be included in the assault. 

[truetanker]

Brother GermanSumo, your cutdown speaks volumes, for an aged canister such as yourself, aff?

Let brothers Wotan and Snewsom eat shells, and become Ristars themselves or suffer hegira here and now, quiaff? Has this kurultai become broken that a rese must be used to bond us over petty squabble like the stravag dezgra surats themselves? Neg I say, neg! Or else I'll see to it that Nathaculor is called for!

( Huh?... http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dictionary )

So in the spirit of things, I'll lower my bid to:

A Binary of Frontline Omni with a single attached Star of  Elemental, along with a single Strong Star of three Tank Points and three attached Infantry Points. A single Point of Huey is included with the unit, not separate. As well a my previous bid of three Points of Aero for Ground support.

< Crosses arms, but strokes his chin >

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Well I'll undo my hemming and hawing and go back to my bid of a Binary Nova supported by an understrength star of 2 points of recon tanks and a single point of ASFs.  I think that makes it the low bid by three points.

[GermanSumo]

(thanks for the dictionary. i never came across the word nathaculor)

the pubs shows their teeth then...

*with a broad smile the older, surprisingly fat warrior leans down over the holotank, leaning on his two fists*

spoken like true hellions, pubs. agressive and easier enraged than a falcon. well, brothers... you underbid me. show me whats in our young ones. grab the honour you so desperatly look for. lead your forces to victory. but fail... and brother tanker will face me in a circle for calling me an aged canister. and after i beat the snot out of you there, i will take what remains of our forces... the old ones you so abhorr... to victory somewhere else.

*his eyes close a bit and look threatenly at the two young warriors* or you prefer the circle here and now... before you waste our best warriors?

(this is actually awesome, tai dai and especially truetanker. i really like this conversation. i hope, the liam´s ghost learns something)

[truetanker]

Neg, by four Points by my count.

Ten of Mechs, five of Battle Armor, three more of Tanks, another three of Infantry with a final of three Points of Aero. Verses your ten Mechs, five of Battle Armor, paired Recon Tanks and single Aero Point.

Bargained well and done Star Captain Tai! You may have master the bid, but not the battle, a wager is at stake. I wager your time for a year as isola and for you to be my Bondsman, if I the winner at the task at hand, quiaff? And I your Bondsman for a year in reverse, aff? What say you, Neg or Aff?

< Looks at GermanSumo >

Old one, your words fall true but I shalt not be Abtakha today! Circle of Equals, you and I after this debacle is over...

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

[GermanSumo]

seyla, warrior. so be it.

*nods grimly and smiles then*

let this old beast show you some tricks then

[truetanker]

< Nods curtly and turns to study holotank taking notes on his wrist comp >

Star Captain Pi
180th Attack Cluster
Clan Ice Hellion

( PM sent GS )

[GermanSumo]

OOC: so... what do you think, liams ghost?

[Liam's Ghost]

It's been an entertaining discussion. I'm not sure if a person could bid lower than what we've got and have any hope.

Though I won't have to formally declare a winner until Saturday. The friends and I are supposed to meet up to continue gaming on Sunday.

Of course, my friends and I have had to postpone three times for weather, twice because of my health, and once because some jerk SHOT UP the neighbor's car the night before and I was up all night either talking to the police, waiting to talk to the police, or stressing over the fact that bullets were flying next door to where half my nieces live. So either the game continues Sunday or the fates are going to have to get serious about stopping me.

Either way... I don't have to declare a winner before Saturday.  ;D

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Neg, by four Points by my count.

Ten of Mechs, five of Battle Armor, three more of Tanks, another three of Infantry with a final of three Points of Aero. Verses your ten Mechs, five of Battle Armor, paired Recon Tanks and single Aero Point.

My bid is 10 points of mechs and 10 points of BA (two full novas). 23 points total. BARELY under your 24 points.  Drop down to 1 point of ASFs and you'll underbid me ;)

[GermanSumo]

OOC: dont forget to declare a winner for the circle of equal between the two warriors. and remember its 3001. circles back then usually didnt end in fatalities over the matter of "bids".

It's been an entertaining discussion. I'm not sure if a person could bid lower than what we've got and have any hope.

Though I won't have to formally declare a winner until Saturday. The friends and I are supposed to meet up to continue gaming on Sunday.

Of course, my friends and I have had to postpone three times for weather, twice because of my health, and once because some jerk SHOT UP the neighbor's car the night before and I was up all night either talking to the police, waiting to talk to the police, or stressing over the fact that bullets were flying next door to where half my nieces live. So either the game continues Sunday or the fates are going to have to get serious about stopping me.

Either way... I don't have to declare a winner before Saturday.  ;D

[truetanker]

My bid is 10 points of mechs and 10 points of BA (two full novas). 23 points total. BARELY under your 24 points.  Drop down to 1 point of ASFs and you'll underbid me ;)

OCC: Technically I could have gone with the Fortified Star of 7, Star of Toads ( 5 ), Reinforced Star ( 3 Tanks, 3 Infantry ) and a Understrength Star of Aero ( 3 ) for 21 total Points.  >:D

TT

[Vition2]

I kind of hate to say it Tai Dai, but if I were the commanding officer of the assault, I'd consider truetanker to currently have the lower bid.  His use of 6 points of (likely) second line troops I would consider to be much lesser than your front line troops, effectively this would put him at a point or 2 below your bid (6 points turning into an effective 3 or 4, depending).  The clans don't always follow a strict  number of points, but also consider the perceived combat strength of a unit (in the fluff, three stars of PBI would probably have a lot of difficulty against a single point of BA, and yes, that's 5 BA vs. 375 PBI).

Illogical, yes, but then perceptions are important in any culture. 

And just to toss my 2 cents into the actual consideration, I like Tai Dai's bid better.  It seems more Hellion to me, where the 'mechs can play to their strengths, while BA tear apart enemy vehicles and infantry.  truetankers seems to have a bunch of chaff that are expected to just get annihilated.

[Colt Ward]

Problem with the bidding is we are not getting weights, reference the earlier post that discussed bidding and again I point you towards the Tukayyid bidding system as a method to get a total.

For instance, if I am bidding I would rather take stars that have Kit Fox Prime/A/D and Adder A/B/D over things like Viper Primes, Nova Prime, or the 5/8 heavies they would not really like.  True to Ice Hellion mettle, they want the speedy lights and for that you need to keep ranged weapons when so outnumbered.

Also, where does the Clan forces expect to face the defending forces?  I understand they are not bidding and might be even skating close to declaring them dezgra in how they interact, which means that two starts of Kit Fox & Adder configurations I mentioned will be opening up on anything they see en masse.  The IS forces will not be able to close the range straight up, but COULD entrap the Hellions with proper strategic movement and use of terrain.

Anyway, I would bid two rogue stars of Omnis provided I had enough open terrain to conduct a proper running battle and a star of Elementals held in orbit.

Star 1
Ice Ferret B
Adder A
Adder B
Adder C
Adder D

Star 2
Battle Cobra Prime
Kit Fox Prime
Kit Fox A
Kit Fox D
Mist Lynx C

The Adder A & C and Kit Fox Prime should both be able to fall back to the DZ to reload their ammo bins when they run dry.  Mechs that get worn on armor can also fall back to the DZ to repair- while not often addressed it did happen during the invasion.  The only thing with range on the Clan forces will be LRMs and AC/2s which the Clan lights can survive the nicks to the armor.  Outnumbered more than 3-1 in mechs and like 4 or 5 to 1 in weight without getting into vehicles.

The Elementals (2L, 2F, 1MG) will be held in orbit until the battle has been in play for a time, the whole star will be orbital dropped on what is determined the enemy HQ or a repair point.  They will wreck what is being repaired, kill any mechwarriors, tankers or infantry they find at the repair site as well as destroying any stocks they can.  The survivors will pull out to be picked up to be rearmed with the SRMs.  If the mech defenders go to ground the Elementals can go into woods or other tight terrain to flush out the mechs.

But a lot of this is problematic since we cannot get a idea of the terrain.

[Liam's Ghost]

It's a planet. You don't know where the defenders will stand up and fight (or technically even if they will). I can't give you a specific terrain to fight on.

I avoided listing specific weight classes and such because I don't want to get so granular that we're arguing over which specific variant counts as what. In this case, all omnimechs are considered the same for the purposes of bidding.

At best, a front line mech star will count higher than a second line star, which will count higher than elementals, which counts higher than conventional infantry and vehicles (weighted the same). The front line omnifighters are nebulously between front line mechs and second line mechs. But that's only for tie breakers. If the lowest bids are tied in total numbers of points, then we can compare composition of units to determine the smaller bid.