Author Topic: Aviation Pictures Part Trois  (Read 194915 times)

Elmoth

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1350 on: 27 September 2018, 07:39:37 »
So, a Ferret

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1351 on: 27 September 2018, 07:50:44 »
Sticking with the Vietnam-era CAS/mini-guns theme . . .

I had just read about the Bushranger, nice to see a pic of one

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1352 on: 27 September 2018, 17:03:16 »
So, a Ferret
Indeed!  They're very close to 5 tons.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1353 on: 27 September 2018, 17:07:55 »
Indeed!  They're very close to 5 tons.
Ferret with half the infantry bay replaced with an RL10, perhaps?

Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1354 on: 27 September 2018, 17:26:52 »
Sure... a 5-trooper squad could still have two machine guns as support weapons... :)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1355 on: 27 September 2018, 18:49:25 »
Ferret with half the infantry bay replaced with an RL10, perhaps?

Tactical operations VTOL bomber rule, just hang an RL10 off the bottom.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1356 on: 27 September 2018, 20:33:22 »

and now, presenting an aircraft that came in under-budget, with less than a decade of development, that worked exceedingly well in every role and conflict it was brought into without needing special provisions in the testing or special deployment rules above and beyond those of aircraft of a similar vintage.



and the Skyraider's cute too.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1357 on: 28 September 2018, 03:23:36 »
It still amazes me that, for as modern in design as that airframe was, it first flew in 1959.  And the G.91Y, my favorite light-attack plane (fantastic little thing) uses the same engine pack; you can make a whole airforce off a single source supplier! 
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1358 on: 28 September 2018, 09:03:47 »

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1359 on: 28 September 2018, 15:58:35 »
Here is the Boeing/Saab T-X Trainer that will replace the T-38 Talon. Contract just rewarded to Boeing.

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Sharpnel

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1360 on: 29 September 2018, 01:08:25 »
F-35B crashed in South Carolina on Friday. Pilot ejected safely.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1361 on: 29 September 2018, 01:43:26 »
F-35B crashed in South Carolina on Friday. Pilot ejected safely.

that's inevitable with mass-produced high performance aircraft.  it's not that the design is unsafe, but that the role is going to statistically have a crash rate no matter how well produced or designed it is.  Issues like pilot error, maintenance error, undetected manufacturing errors will happen to any airframe in the first few years of employment.

for example, the F-104

and the early F-16


both had, in their first decade, a reputation as "Lawn Darts" because of a seemingly high crash rate as organizations got training ironed out regading their actual, versus planned, capabilities, maintenance requirements, and training requirements.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1362 on: 29 September 2018, 04:20:24 »
Big difference, though, is that the F-35 hasn't even started serious mass production.  They're coming out in dribs and drabs from the factory; there's only about 300 of them across the board - far short of the 2600 for the Americans (let alone ROW), while production has been around 7 per month.  That's expected to double soon, as the program pushes into higher build numbers with all the upgrades learned over the first batch of aircraft...but those first batches are going back to the factory for rebuilds up to the current standard soon.

It's the first full crash, but there've been a number of aircraft that suffered severe accidents (Class A Mishaps) with expensive rebuilds, most recently one that collapsed its nose gear on landing and tore up the nose of the aircraft.  Granted, later aircraft shouldn't have these problems and overall numbers will go down, but the incident rate is concerning for as few aircraft as there are currently.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1363 on: 29 September 2018, 04:37:05 »
The incident rate is better than many other modern aircraft. The F-35 is being scrutinised much closer by media and critics (with all the ramifications that entails), that's all.

Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1364 on: 29 September 2018, 08:16:22 »
Big difference, though, is that the F-35 hasn't even started serious mass production.  They're coming out in dribs and drabs from the factory; there's only about 300 of them across the board - far short of the 2600 for the Americans (let alone ROW), while production has been around 7 per month.  That's expected to double soon, as the program pushes into higher build numbers with all the upgrades learned over the first batch of aircraft...but those first batches are going back to the factory for rebuilds up to the current standard soon.

It's the first full crash, but there've been a number of aircraft that suffered severe accidents (Class A Mishaps) with expensive rebuilds, most recently one that collapsed its nose gear on landing and tore up the nose of the aircraft.  Granted, later aircraft shouldn't have these problems and overall numbers will go down, but the incident rate is concerning for as few aircraft as there are currently.

You ever work in manufacturing? your error rate on production goes down with quantity.  On the 777F (Freighter) the first two had to be sold at a drastic mark-down to Air France, because of how many mistakes were made during the post-certification phase of the program (that is, stuff we had to rebuild or re-work when they pulled the flight test gear out). That's with an established airframe using established technologies.

F-35 uses protoype-level technologies and a novel airframe utterly unlike anything else in production before hand, of course low numbered airframes are going to have problems.  and not just machine problems, but man problems too-there's really not enough for maintainers to have a best practices in keeping the planes running properly-because they're new, they're low-number airframes, and the institutional and organizational culture and knowledge to get the best out of them doesn't exist yet.

and "Yet" is the operative word.

Consider this; the F-111 A



was a death-trap with a 25% operational rate when USAF adopted it.  Not 25% downtime, but 25% operational until around 1973.

by the time it was retired by the USAF, it was a reliable airplane with advanced avionics and a reasonably effective role.  By the time the Australians retired theirs (F models) they were actually fairly good airplanes.

Aviation mechanics can get damn near anything to fly-if they have a body of knowledge on that anything of sufficient depth-even planes that shouldn't, like an airframe with a 35% built in instability...



sure, there's been an accident, and anyone who's frequented this forum knows my opinion on the decision to continue with the JSF programme as it's been executed.  But the planes are built, they're flying, so now? Now it's a matter of volume times time, building up the knowledge-warehouse and organizational cultures necessary to keep the F-35 from being an expensive hangar queen.

and that only happens with Lessons Learned in service.  no matter how sadistic your testing programme is, only operation in the field can find the real flaws and provide the real data to provide real solutions.  Reality is different from fiction, because reality doesn't have to warn you ahead of time.

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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1365 on: 29 September 2018, 08:23:25 »
The incident rate is better than many other modern aircraft. The F-35 is being scrutinised much closer by media and critics (with all the ramifications that entails), that's all.

Don't kid yourself, Kidd, there are serious issues w/ the F-35 program, if there weren't, we'd have had operational squadrons by 2005, both Britain and Canada wouldn't be fighting domestic challenges to de-adopt it, etc. etc.

but you're also right-any program can become a success if it's worked on hard enough by intelligent people.  think of the scrutiny as 'holding the contractor's feet to the fire' instead of letting them bury test results (which has happened in the past with military procurements.  See: F-111, M-2 Bradley, Sgt. York DIVAD gun system, etc.)

one crash is not a trend, and this one looks pretty much 'pilot error' which happens with new systems.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1366 on: 29 September 2018, 08:32:58 »
What concerns me the most about the program was the concurrency idea; start churning out planes that legitimately aren't ready, and use the first production runs that are in-service as your prototypes to work out the kinks, then go back and retroactively upgrade all those once you finally do.  This also means that designs are changing not just from technical feedback but mission creep, meanwhile you're actively producing aircraft that will need to be remanufactured soon.  In the past, it was a case of 'a few prototypes, then once all the bugs are worked out start mass production and don't worry about the prototypes' but...that's more a debate about manufacturing processes than aircraft in particular.

Glad the pilot survived, though.  That's the number one thing.

I'll still agree the F-35 is probably the greatest strike aircraft on the planet, and I'd LOVE to see the EOTS applied to other aircraft as well, it's a magnificent system for situational awareness.  Talk about playing dirty in a dogfight, now you have nowhere to hide...
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1367 on: 29 September 2018, 08:44:11 »
Don't kid yourself, Kidd, there are serious issues w/ the F-35 program, if there weren't, we'd have had operational squadrons by 2005, both Britain and Canada wouldn't be fighting domestic challenges to de-adopt it, etc. etc.

but you're also right-any program can become a success if it's worked on hard enough by intelligent people.  think of the scrutiny as 'holding the contractor's feet to the fire' instead of letting them bury test results
I quite agree with almost all of the above :thumbsup:

The important thing though is to recognise what is right and what is wrong, targeting the proper parts of the program which require corrective action, and not going at it willy-nilly with half-truths or exaggerations

The latter however is the way it goes nowadays. More interest in "shaping the narrative" for personal purposes than the absolute truth

What concerns me the most about the program was the concurrency idea; start churning out planes that legitimately aren't ready, and use the first production runs that are in-service as your prototypes to work out the kinks, then go back and retroactively upgrade all those once you finally do.  This also means that designs are changing not just from technical feedback but mission creep, meanwhile you're actively producing aircraft that will need to be remanufactured soon.  In the past, it was a case of 'a few prototypes, then once all the bugs are worked out start mass production and don't worry about the prototypes' but...that's more a debate about manufacturing processes than aircraft in particular.
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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1368 on: 29 September 2018, 14:14:43 »
Here is the Boeing/Saab T-X Trainer that will replace the T-38 Talon. Contract just rewarded to Boeing.


Good article here: https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2018/09/27/boeing-wins-t-x-trainer-competition/



No surprise as to the winner though. As I predicted earlier in the thread, Lockheed and Boeing were the only legitimate contenders once Northrop pulled out. Lockheed will be in the fast jet business for decades to come with the Lightning. Boeing wont be building Eagles and Hornets forever. This will keep them in the fast jet business 'till it's time for our 6th generation fighter.
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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1369 on: 29 September 2018, 15:06:18 »
The Marines have taken the F-35B into combat for the first time.

https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2018/09/28/marine-corps-marks-combat-debut-for-f-35b/
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Charlie 6

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1370 on: 29 September 2018, 15:13:13 »
The Marines have taken the F-35B into combat for the first time.

https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2018/09/28/marine-corps-marks-combat-debut-for-f-35b/

The VMFA-211 Squadron Commander mentioned in the article was a fraternity brother of mine at Carnegie Mellon.  His funeral was well attended by a number of folks that thought very highly of him.  Nice touch VMFA-211.

https://taskandpurpose.com/marine-corps-camp-bastion-jsf/

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1371 on: 29 September 2018, 17:31:10 »
Boeing wont be building Eagles and Hornets forever. This will keep them in the fast jet business 'till it's time for our 6th generation fighter.
Hilariously, it looks like a little baby F-18, it's so cute!

I wonder what Northrop's gonna do with their design; they're keeping it remarkably under wraps.  Are they repurposing it for foreign sale, or gonna play it into the drone market perhaps?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1372 on: 29 September 2018, 18:41:26 »

Good article here: https://combataircraft.keypublishing.com/2018/09/27/boeing-wins-t-x-trainer-competition/



No surprise as to the winner though. As I predicted earlier in the thread, Lockheed and Boeing were the only legitimate contenders once Northrop pulled out. Lockheed will be in the fast jet business for decades to come with the Lightning. Boeing wont be building Eagles and Hornets forever. This will keep them in the fast jet business 'till it's time for our 6th generation fighter.

wonder how long it will be before the T-X gets a version meant for frontline use, to make up for how expensive the F-35 has become.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1373 on: 29 September 2018, 18:56:45 »
I doubt it; it's a little on the small side for any serious strike mission.  Not that it wouldn't work, I just don't see the Americans using it.  Export market, totally; compare it to the Hawk, Jaguar, and other stuff and it'd probably set a nice new modern bar.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1374 on: 30 September 2018, 00:17:27 »
wonder how long it will be before the T-X gets a version meant for frontline use, to make up for how expensive the F-35 has become.
In US/NATO service? Not ever. Frontline requirements are beyond what it can offer. I can think of some 3rd-world countries which might consider it, but its competitor the FA-50 has actually scored some sales and China is of course heavily promoting the JF-17 Thunder.

I'd love to see the specs of the Boeing T-X though, just to fantasise what could be done to turn it into a "light fighter" (or really, armed trainer).

Then there's also this from China, which flew its maiden official flight yesterday - the FTC-2000G, a purpose-built light fighter with touted specs similar to the FA-50. The marketing for this is the direct opposite of the FA-50, Hawk, et al. - a light fighter that can also be a trainer, rather than a trainer that can also be a light fighter.


glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1375 on: 30 September 2018, 00:37:47 »
looking at the wikipedia article and assuming the specs listed there are at least reasonably close to accurate..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_T-X

a light fighter version would be pretty close to a JAS-39 Gripen.. it is darn near the same size and weight, it just uses a less powerful engine. but the F414 on the Gripen is basically a souped up F404, which is what the Boeing-SAAB T-X is using.. and the early Gripens were using a F404 as well, it is just the JAS-39E/F "Gripen NG" that uses the F414..

« Last Edit: 30 September 2018, 00:41:14 by glitterboy2098 »

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1376 on: 30 September 2018, 01:17:48 »
I'm not certain if those specs are correct. If they are, it's way lighter than the JAS-39C Gripen which clocks in at 14000kg fully loaded.

Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1377 on: 30 September 2018, 05:26:01 »
From the latest shiny new toy to old faithful and reliable:

Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1378 on: 30 September 2018, 11:05:35 »
I'm not certain if those specs are correct. If they are, it's way lighter than the JAS-39C Gripen which clocks in at 14000kg fully loaded.
Dryweight is pretty close. The T-X being lighter fully loaded is only logical due the fact the T-X lacks all the weapons hardpoints and such. Something that would be added for a light fighter version.
Especially since a light fighter would probably be using a more power version of the engine, like the F414.
« Last Edit: 30 September 2018, 11:07:43 by glitterboy2098 »

Dragon Cat

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1379 on: 30 September 2018, 11:30:25 »
AH64 Apache winter certification 
My three main Alternate Timeline with Thanks fan-fiction threads are in the links below. I'm always open to suggestions or additions to be incorporated so if you feel you wish to add something feel free. There's non-canon units, equipment, people, events, erm... Solar Systems spread throughout so please enjoy

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,20515.0.html - Part 1

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,52013.0.html - Part 2

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,79196.0.html - Part 3