Author Topic: Aviation Pictures Part Trois  (Read 192384 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1410 on: 17 October 2018, 00:44:57 »
Considering those aircraft were downchecked for a host of various parts requirements, everything from engines to avionics.  They weren't flying, and it's not like there was a hell of a lot of warning - you get a few days at most for any kind of major storm.  If parts won't be here in time, guess what?
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1411 on: 17 October 2018, 09:23:35 »
Considering those aircraft were downchecked for a host of various parts requirements, everything from engines to avionics.  They weren't flying, and it's not like there was a hell of a lot of warning - you get a few days at most for any kind of major storm.  If parts won't be here in time, guess what?

As I recall, that was the reason for the F-16s destroyed when Mt. Pinatubo erupted many years ago. If they can't fly away from the pyroclastic cloud and mountains of ash and mud heading their way, well, they're write-offs.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1412 on: 17 October 2018, 18:51:08 »
They're also saying that the hangars the aircraft were stored in held up to the storm, so the 17 aircraft in question aren't completely destroyed.  Very likely they're in various states of damage and disrepair, but LockMart engineers are already assessing the damage to figure out what to do with them.
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1413 on: 17 October 2018, 19:01:52 »
Having been involved in the recovery of an airfield following a tropical cyclone and reading between the lines of the news report. Generally, the hangars will take the brunt of the damage but it depends on whether any of the cladding of the hangars got peeled off by the wind. If you lose cladding then expect significant damage to the aircraft inside. If you did not lose cladding then you still get individual bits of debris that get punched through the cladding by the wind which can still result in damage to the aircraft inside.

I would be surprised if all 17 aircraft are a complete write-off. More likely there would be a few economic write-offs (ie can be fixed but at huge expense) and the rest will have varying levels of damage that may keep some out of action for extended time periods.

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1414 on: 17 October 2018, 22:19:57 »
And let's not forget that of those writeoffs, there's going to be previous "damage" to them that led to their being left behind.  A Raptor that gets a hell of a hole through the wing might not be a writeoff, but if its avionics aren't installed and the engines were already pulled for replacement?  At that point it might be easier to call it destroyed since it was halfway there before the hurricane hit, rather than repair both the hurricane damage AND all the previous wear, tear, and replacements.

Granted I have no idea what state those birds were in prior to the hurricane, so I'm just rolling off the top here.



Meanwhile, I'm bummed that Japan nixed the idea of YF-23 variants for their indig stealth fighter.  The better stealth characteristics and focus of an interceptor would have made a wonderful niche for the Black Widow II.  I guess they couldn't make it transform into a giant robot properly, so they're gonna make their own.
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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1415 on: 18 October 2018, 07:29:23 »
Heck I'm STILL bummed that the YF-23 was never adopted as the Gen 5 fighter.  That's what a proper 21st century interceptor needs to look like.

Ruger

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1416 on: 18 October 2018, 08:10:35 »
Heck I'm STILL bummed that the YF-23 was never adopted as the Gen 5 fighter.  That's what a proper 21st century interceptor needs to look like.

This...so much this...

Just because the team for that fighter didn't take it to the same extreme as the YF-22's team in a test or two, perception became it wasn't as capable...

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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1417 on: 18 October 2018, 08:15:45 »
Well, in fairness it showed LockMart was definitely playing with some matured technology rather than a true testbed, and the -22 did have the TV engines that the -23 didn't.  The Air Force was looking for a fighter, and wanted the best furball performance, so it went with the better dogfighting capability.  The -23 was always more of an interceptor; faster and stealthier but not as apt in the turning fight.  (Granted, some of these 'better' statistics are very fine differences between them, but still)

Were it a perfect world we'd have adapted both platforms and given any threat axis a hi-hi approach to dealing with air combat, because you want different threat envelopes to cover things - otherwise, if someone comes up with a way to reliably defeat your single-frame air combat unit, you've got nothing else in the tool shed. (See also: the Zero problem)

I wonder how the Widow IIs would have handled ground attack?
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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1418 on: 18 October 2018, 09:54:05 »
I wonder how the Widow IIs would have handled ground attack?


Bigger weapon bays than the 22, so probably quite well.


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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1419 on: 18 October 2018, 10:49:15 »
Was the namer a fan of Batman: The Animated Series?
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1420 on: 18 October 2018, 13:49:08 »
Some angles views of the F-23 is one of the best looking aircraft ever.
The other angles of the F-23 is one of the ugliest planes ever, looking form the back and below is one of them to me.

Example attachhed
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1421 on: 18 October 2018, 17:25:55 »
Meanwhile, I'm bummed that Japan nixed the idea of YF-23 variants for their indig stealth fighter.  The better stealth characteristics and focus of an interceptor would have made a wonderful niche for the Black Widow II.  I guess they couldn't make it transform into a giant robot properly, so they're gonna make their own.
sure they could. they just couldn't get the DNI system working right.

grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1422 on: 30 October 2018, 12:43:31 »
Well, in fairness it showed LockMart was definitely playing with some matured technology rather than a true testbed, and the -22 did have the TV engines that the -23 didn't.  The Air Force was looking for a fighter, and wanted the best furball performance, so it went with the better dogfighting capability.  The -23 was always more of an interceptor; faster and stealthier but not as apt in the turning fight.  (Granted, some of these 'better' statistics are very fine differences between them, but still)

Were it a perfect world we'd have adapted both platforms and given any threat axis a hi-hi approach to dealing with air combat, because you want different threat envelopes to cover things - otherwise, if someone comes up with a way to reliably defeat your single-frame air combat unit, you've got nothing else in the tool shed. (See also: the Zero problem)

I wonder how the Widow IIs would have handled ground attack?
I imagine a lot of the folks who made the decision were trained up by folks who flew F-4s in Vietnam.  They were told from the beginning of their careers that a pure interceptor that  can't get into dust up with what ever it catches is a Bad Ideatm.  That said, a pair of Raptors with a Widow flying high cover is a kinda scary idea.  Especially in 10 years when all the interconnected doodads from F-35 get back ported.
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DaveMac

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1423 on: 12 November 2018, 03:33:51 »
Go to red alert!
Are you sure sir?  It does mean changing the lightbulb.

Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1424 on: 12 November 2018, 05:47:12 »
Wallpaper worthy


Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1425 on: 12 November 2018, 06:42:05 »
Indeed, very nice!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1426 on: 12 November 2018, 07:58:07 »
So very nice to see.
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worktroll

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1427 on: 12 November 2018, 08:45:12 »
Notice the leading edge slats out? Hard to fly that slow.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1428 on: 12 November 2018, 10:20:46 »
Shot of the Chengdu J-20A's full missile load.




Interestingly, it seems that the doors for the cheek weapons bays can seemingly be opened, the weapons extended, and the doors closed again.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1429 on: 12 November 2018, 10:50:32 »
They're working on a 6-missile bay.

grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1430 on: 12 November 2018, 12:22:07 »
Shot of the Chengdu J-20A's full missile load.




Interestingly, it seems that the doors for the cheek weapons bays can seemingly be opened, the weapons extended, and the doors closed again.
I'm a bit curious what that buys them.  The first thought is keeping the RCS low, but once you do something that breaks up your stealth, you're not stealthy anymore. 

Plus they need tracks to hold the missile when it's external and doors to cover those tracks.  All those seams add up to degrade the RCS even when the bird is in a "clean" configuration.
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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1431 on: 12 November 2018, 12:32:10 »
I'm a bit curious what that buys them.  The first thought is keeping the RCS low, but once you do something that breaks up your stealth, you're not stealthy anymore. 

Plus they need tracks to hold the missile when it's external and doors to cover those tracks.  All those seams add up to degrade the RCS even when the bird is in a "clean" configuration.
I presume you mean the two side bays. This gif demonstrates how it works:



Why is it important to have those 3 yellow bits outside even with bay doors shut? Cause that's where the tracking sensors are - it allows the missile to acquire lock while still inside the bay with doors unopened, something the F-22 can't do for its AIM-9Xs. An F-22 would have to open its bay, THEN wait for the missile seeker to acquire lock.

This requirement only applies to short-ranged IR homing missiles like the PL-10 here, or US AIM-9X. That's why the main bay doesn't have a similar setup.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 12:34:12 by Kidd »

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1432 on: 12 November 2018, 12:36:12 »
I'd seen something suggesting that the original plan for the configuration was to set up four 'deep' inside, and two more on each door in a setup similar to the Hellfire carriage on the RAH-66 Comanche lemon helicopter from about 20 years ago. Not sure if that was ever really feasible or not, but it's intriguing anyway.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1433 on: 12 November 2018, 13:50:45 »
I'm a bit curious what that buys them.  The first thought is keeping the RCS low, but once you do something that breaks up your stealth, you're not stealthy anymore. 

Plus they need tracks to hold the missile when it's external and doors to cover those tracks.  All those seams add up to degrade the RCS even when the bird is in a "clean" configuration.
An external missile in that position is still a stealthier than a big open bay. Since it isn't the most stealthy to start, it needs all the help it can get.

It also gives it better aerodynamics than an open bay, useful in a dogfight.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 13:52:39 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1434 on: 12 November 2018, 19:32:45 »
If you've got the heat seekers out, odds are good, you're expecting to enter a knife fight. Having the doors closed keeps the aerodynamics a lot cleaner. Probably easier on the bay door mechanisms too if you aren't keeping them open while pulling 7 g's at 400 kts

Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1435 on: 12 November 2018, 21:59:57 »
I assume that when the stealthy fighters are in visual dogfighting range, being at full stealth is probably less of a consideration than being able to out manoeuvre the enemy aircraft they are dogfighting with, being able to achieve a target lock and shoot them down. This appears on the surface (pun intended) to be a reasonable engineering solution to assist in achieving that result.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1436 on: 12 November 2018, 22:02:21 »
the F-22 was supposed to deal with the issue by being equipped with a version of the AIM-9 that could be fed targeting data before launch and didn't require being deployed out of the doors to lock on. then the IRST got cut from the design, forcing it to rely on radar for the initial lock (which greatly reduces the performance, not to mention the stealth)
and then AIM-9X proved too expensive to manufacture in sufficient quantities anyway, and stockpiles only just started to catch up.

i suspect there were some engineers at Lockheed that on learning of the Chinese solution, went "why the hell didn't we think of that?"
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 22:04:32 by glitterboy2098 »

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1437 on: 12 November 2018, 22:20:21 »
Technically it's an IRST of sorts, just...side-looking rather than nose-mounted.  And more integrated into just the missile, I suppose, than a full system for the pilot.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1438 on: 13 November 2018, 04:21:41 »
I guess it's like the A-10 solution to the low light vision requirement, use the missile seeker


I wonder if the IRIS-T could be retrofitted to the F-22 if they wanted...


Also, missiles other than the AIM-9 do exist, for example the ASRAAM
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grimlock1

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #1439 on: 13 November 2018, 12:06:02 »
Technically it's an IRST of sorts, just...side-looking rather than nose-mounted.  And more integrated into just the missile, I suppose, than a full system for the pilot.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was 30-40 degrees of off boresight capability for those heat seekers.  Otherwise feeding them data from a side looking sensor doesn't seem logical.
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