Customs vs Stock Variants

[Cannonshop]

     Hi, I am fairly new to the game and since starting to play at the local store we have been using a lot of customs.  We stick to tournament legal tech and just run BV based games.  A few issues have arisen such as pulse boats with targeting computers and I'll need to say something if one of the newest players brings his list of mechs that only have pulse weapons and targeting computers.  This is one of the problems with customs obviously.  (I only have one or two pulse weapons in a force at most for example, so I can recognize and dont want to be part of the problem)

My question to everyone is how do they play?  Customs or stocks? 

     As I mentioned we use a lot of a customs and I nearly always have break even heat dissipation, sacrificing an extra gun or two for max armor and maneuverability.  because after having played all the computer games thats mostly what I did with my mechs there.

     I am still only a few months into playing the game but I am looking at stock designs from solaris skunk werks and some of them look horrendous.  One example is a Battlemaster variant that has its left arm's MG ammo in its right torso next to the right arm's PPC.  If the mech survives the hit to the ammo the PPC is gone and the left arm is useless.  It seems logical to CASE the left torso and keep the ammo there.  Then you lose the SRM which may or may not do its full damage rather than losing a longer range and consistent damage weapon like the PPC.

     Another thing I see is that some mechs like Atlas variants dont even have enough heat sinks to fire off even just two of their main weapons before going over their heat sinks.  One variant I saw, if alpha striking went up to 28 heat over their heat sinks (may have been another mech).  I get that heat issues make the game a bit more tactical, but with a +1 and +2 mod right there in the starting overheat I fear that I wouldnt hit anything the entire game with my typical rolls.

     Finally, one other thing I noticed is how many empty critical slots are open.  The empty slot in the head is often left open on stocks and same with the center torso.  On my customs I always put either a small energy weapon, heat sinks, or jump jets in the center torso/head (not jump jets in the head of course haha).  I tend to lose a mech once a game to a head shot, often in the 60-85 ton range so I try as hard as I can to give a little buffer.

     These are just things I am seeing that don't make sense to me and maybe its because I still fairly new they dont make sense; so if you guys could offer me any insight into how you run your own games, how you handle stock variants, or any other tips that might be useful, I'd appreciate it.

it's alll in your audience or gaming group.  when I was playing regularly we often ran a lot of customs on one side or the other, or both, but balanced them off by restricting them to the lower tech base.  (You couldn't run, say, an all-custom clanner design unless everyone was running all custom clanner, if you ran Inner Sphere no Clan equipment on your customs unless the clanner players were allowed to run all custom configs.)

basically, restrictions should fit with your gaming group's dynamic, whether that's campaign play or just one-off matches, or even scenario runs.


why? because every group's different.  One of the main reasons to have a good catalog of stock designs is that an all-stock game is good for demonstration games at cons and gamestores, and for tourney runs, anywhere where you have strangers mixing with beginners.  more developed gaming groups, roleplayers and groups with running campaigns will by default need to allow customization, and depending on the group, that can be tightly restricted, or it can be as loose as 'run what you will'.

for regular groups running disconnected scenarios, a preset BV limit (minus FSM) can be very useful.  I remember a game where one guy sank everything into one optimized clanner into an iceboxed clanner assault 'mech in an all-energy config, and another player whose force for the same BV wound up fielding a mob of conventional 'trash' units...and in terms of raw bv, it was an even fight, on the table, it was Przno River all over again and the mob player wound up losing the first match, then coming back in the second match with only slightly better rolls to curb stomp the optimized ultra-elite Clanner on a different map. (They both lost to the guy with a flexible and balanced force that included a more generalized layout-of purely stock units.)

what customs you allow are really determined by what rules and rulesets you choose to allow.  (this has a massive impact on what works, what is 'optimal' and where.)

[Col Toda]

At what point do you declare it is truly custom ? For you does a unit have to have a C3 Slave out of the factory to not be custom .  Does swapping a medium laser for a C3 Slave count for you ? As stated before sometimes customization is done to apply a tactical doctrine such as a C3 network . So where is your line ?  For you does it have to have a c3 slave out of the factory or it counts ?  Does reducing a full ton of machine gun ammo to a half ton plus CASE when it becomes available again too much of an alteration to be considered a custom job ?  For me a Unit varient is any alteration or change that can be done in a mech bay . A unit model is something that requires a factory like facility .  All combat vehicles come in either scratch kit build in a garage or limited edituon model out of a factory . Most of the aforementioned OMG custom jobs have there day in the sun then get replaced or maginalized when the oppostiion compensate for the hardware or tactics used .  For instance TC and pulse lasers combo is delt with any number of ways . Puttng fuel cell engines and Heavy Fibrous armor a lance of Saladin hovertanks have better armor some exchange the AC 20. With an Ultra AC 20 and the other half LB 20 Xs.  The first puts 20 pt holes in TC pulse laser unit the other puts crit seeking cluster in . the lance cost about as much a heavy mech w an XL fusion engine . Or go up against a different militia or house units 3 Wights that exchange 1 med laser for a slave and the other with TAG. . Master unit a Shiltron Prime 1 Wight goes to range 5 or 6 depending on enemy ECM between 3 heavy ppcs and 2 Homing Arrow IV . In either case the loss of the 10 + Million C bill  pulse laser monster is exchanged with the loss of 2-6 million C bills of hardware if that . And then they abandon that tactical monster for another until the Opposition Force Adapts . Yes I see the pulse laser Targeting computer monster very briefly in every game cheap quantity and very high throw weight weapons tend to solve expensive  flash pan toys . Given years of play I have gone to the combined arms route 16 mechs 8 combat vehicles on offense 8 mechs and 16 combat vehicles gaurding the LZ of a single modified Overlord replacing 1 company of mechs with a lot of light vehicle bays +  .  Customization is important because as soon as you move to a quantity doctrine you icrease speed of play by having heat neutral mechs . You can move and carefully operate a company of combat vehicles in the time it takes for someone to us3 a lance of TSM equipped mechs trying to stay in the magic 9 heat sweet spot . The counter to customization is customization or just numbers with a solid tactical doctrine . Most players do not need a buch of fast combat vehicles with laser reflective armor to drive home that it is not always the best tool to get the job done.  Normally players catch on reasonbly fast and work up a force that works better on a wider range of targets . During the Jihad and after combined arms becomes the new normal : having any targeting computer laser boat negatively impacts both long / out of range exchanges but hidden unit battle armor or infantry exchanges as well .

[Sartris]

i mean it's not that complicated. stock is the canon sheet. any deviations are customizations. it's the easiest, most universally agreeable definition.

arguing that people should be more accepting of minor changes is a separate conversation

[Weirdo]

If it's not a published sheet(or a homemade one that matches it exactly for every single  mechanic), then it's a custom. You swap out even a single piece of equipment, shift even one crit or armor dot around, then it's a custom. It's that simple.

[Col Toda]

Most of the games I have seen dicounts using a field kit to swap out a medium laser for C3 slave almost every game that I ever played that encourages stock only makes that exception or it would never be used . The master unit normally has to be stock.  Still some tech would nearly Never get used if it was no customization . I cannot think of single canon unit thar is equipped with a C3 Remote launcher . And less than a handful of iNARC . The Naganata is a Canon 3058 TRO mech but it was first field on Solaris VII years earlier . Their is absolutely no difference between the 2 except one is a ti be field tested prototype and the other a production model . Is it considered a custom job until 3058 when it becomes a production model ? All the published Solaris VII mechs are Both Canon And Custom jobs : some like the Great Turtle are crafted Unique mech  .   Alot of players enjoy tweeking designs to better operate in an ERA or Theater . Trends like an over abundance of canon units field ECM suites even to their detriment at 3062 . Between 3062 and 3075 so many units carry it that it just about pointless to carry the Artemis IV FCS . Before say 3058 and after 3085 ECM becomes gradually less common.  Most custom units are not fielded for much longer than 5 - 10 years or less depending on when it is fielded ; because the tech paradigm changes just enough that it is no longer a good thing to field. Neither the benifits or detriments last prolonged contact . With the exception of the Naganata MOST SOLARIS VII say they are unique or custom job in  their descriprion along with the Canon printed sheets and TRO .

[Weirdo]

You're putting too much thought into it. Published sheets are canon, all others are custom. It's that simple. If your group wants to allow light customization, then do whatever you think is fun. That doesn't change the fact that lightly customized units are still customs.

[RifleMech]

If it's not a published sheet(or a homemade one that matches it exactly for every single  mechanic), then it's a custom. You swap out even a single piece of equipment, shift even one crit or armor dot around, then it's a custom. It's that simple.

How do you make a handmade record sheet that matches a published sheet exactly without having a published sheet? Why make a homemade sheet if you have a published one? Why allow a handmade sheet at all?

I'm sorry but it's that kind of attitude that drives people away.  :( Blank Record Sheets are Canon. They existed before published sheets. They still exist not solely for customs but so players can play the game. Published sheets exist to speed the gaming process up. They shouldn't be used to exclude players.


It's a custom if the it doesn't match the stats page. However, not carrying full ammo loads doesn't make it a custom. Changing how much ammo can be carried does. So does shifting structural items around. Those items should be considered fixed. They shouldn't be moving about between variants. At least not those directly from a factory. Even then that's iffy. Fixed items on OMNIs also shouldn't shift about between configurations. If they do then its a custom.

[Weirdo]

Excluding players is NOT cool. A group that prefers to play without customs can be expected to accommodate a player who wants to play but does not own record sheet pdfs, either by allowing the kind of minor customs that result when you make a hand-written sheet from TRO data but have no idea where the heat sinks go, or offer to print out sheets for that player.

It's not hard at all for a group to play canon only, even if only one player has the official sheets. Megamek makes it even easier.

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

[Colt Ward]

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

In fact, its in quite a few canon scenarios along with pre-damaged mechs.  And I want to say we have rules in TacOps or CampOps so that people can randomly get that condition in scenarios they create.

[Sartris]

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

i'm guessing this is about as rampant an issue as people being turned away for using hand-filled sheets.

[RifleMech]

Excluding players is NOT cool. A group that prefers to play without customs can be expected to accommodate a player who wants to play but does not own record sheet pdfs, either by allowing the kind of minor customs that result when you make a hand-written sheet from TRO data but have no idea where the heat sinks go, or offer to print out sheets for that player.

It's not hard at all for a group to play canon only, even if only one player has the official sheets. Megamek makes it even easier.

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

I agree. It's not cool. Ignoring minor differences for hand made using TROs and them having to match a production sheet exactly are different things. Not everyone has production sheets or megamek, or a printer or a copier. If those who do are willing to share that's great. If they're not capable for whatever reason being tolerant is also great. Saying "No you can't use hand made" isn't cool.


And no you didn't. There was a question above about reducing machine gun ammo. That's what I was referring to there. Sorry about the confusion. 

Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.

[Weirdo]

Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.

Agreed.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

In fact, its in quite a few canon scenarios along with pre-damaged mechs.  And I want to say we have rules in TacOps or CampOps so that people can randomly get that condition in scenarios they create.

  Back in the "Mad Max" era of BT, there were canon units with damaged 'mechs, because at the time, they just could not be repaired. Source: Cranston Snord's Irregulars (FASA 1614)

  As for shorting ammo bins, I often dump MG ammo prior to some scenarios, where I won't ever use the weapons and don't want to be a walking bomb. That isn't a customization, IMO.

[grimlock1]

  Back in the "Mad Max" era of BT, there were canon units with damaged 'mechs, because at the time, they just could not be repaired. Source: Cranston Snord's Irregulars (FASA 1614)

  As for shorting ammo bins, I often dump MG ammo prior to some scenarios, where I won't ever use the weapons and don't want to be a walking bomb. That isn't a customization, IMO.

The current Start Books also have mechs with permanent damage or glitches.

[RifleMech]

Tales of the Black Widow has the only scenario that I can remember that permitted the use of "Customs" in a scenario. The defender could put 20 Double Strength Heat Sinks on their mechs.

[Col Toda]

Made very few mechs from scratch . Mostly custom varients for ease of getting parts . Have made for Solaris VII complete custom jobs . What you get by taking a successful mech and playing with a few tons to make it better reduces the playtesting time to determine if the whole idea works or not . By making a custom variant on a successful mech you can quickly compare if it is a better design or not . Brand new mechs playtesting eats much more time but may be very much worth it . I normally do not have that kind of time .

[bluedragon7]

I actually like the engineering challenge* of custom Mechs but apart from a few test drive matches, most of the time we played stock tabletop. In RPG customs were quite common, sometimes out of necessity, but mostly this was custom variants not complete new builds.

*e. g. say you get a stockpile of Vlar 300 XL, which battlefield roles can you cover, try to make as many different Mechs that cover as many different roles as possible.

[Daryk]

So... when are you posting that challenge to the design forums?  ;D

[dgorsman]

So... when are you posting that challenge to the design forums?  ;D

Aha!  Iron Chef: Mech builder version.  Given a box of mystery ingredients (components), create a meal (Mechs) to be judged by the panel.

[Apocal]

Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.

What about swapping 1 ton of ammo for 1 ton of different ammo?

edit: To be clear, ammo for a different weapon, not just swapping regular SRMs for Infernos.

[bluedragon7]

As that would, ingame, require rerouting of ammo feed, I would consider that a custom, one of the mildest forms.

[Alsadius]

Weirdly, by the official rules (see SO page 188), it's a class-C refit, which is middling difficulty - it's as complex as changing armour types, for example. Class A-B refits are replacing weapons(including their ammo) with other weapons that don't take up any more slots, but since the weapon gaining ammo will take up more slots, it's a class C. (This may be a good opportunity to think about house rules, mind you.)

[grimlock1]

Weirdly, by the official rules (see SO page 188), it's a class-C refit, which is middling difficulty - it's as complex as changing armour types, for example. Class A-B refits are replacing weapons(including their ammo) with other weapons that don't take up any more slots, but since the weapon gaining ammo will take up more slots, it's a class C. (This may be a good opportunity to think about house rules, mind you.)

While maybe not a full "house rule," it warrants a discussion at the table. Take an Archer -5S with LRM-15's in the side torsos, Streak 2's in the arms and both side torsos have ammo for both systems.   There are ammo feeds to get SRMs from the right torso to the right arm. I would accept the argument that swapping a ton of LRM ammo for an additional ton of Streak 2 ammo is little more than a Class A or B refit.  If you wanted to put an extra ton of ammo in a leg, that would mean running all new ammo feeds and trigger a class C.

Why you would want a 3rd ton of Streak 2 ammo... :screw_loose:  That would trigger an automatic 2 point reduction in your PC's INT score. :screw_loose:

[Alsadius]

Yeah, that's basically what I'd do in practice. Not all house rules need to be the size of a Fan Designs & Rules thread.