Author Topic: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?  (Read 5458 times)

Jellico

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What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« on: 09 April 2020, 01:46:40 »
As the title says.

Rather than just slathering on every non weapon in the game what does an EW Mech need? Note, EW, not spotter or scout.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #1 on: 09 April 2020, 01:57:04 »
Well, only 'electronic warfare' tool in Battletech universe is ECM and Viral Jammer(or some other equipment that can do the same of either of them), nothing more. So you don't need anything else for 'electronic warfare' purpose, and you can't.

Improved Narc's ECM and Nemesis pod may do something interesting, but I don't think that it is what you want. Other than that, there is really nothing and you better check something for the other roles.

Colt Ward

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #2 on: 09 April 2020, 02:41:04 »
Its not all you need . . .

IMO . . .
ECM- first, its where it starts, Guardian is the minimum, Angel is better, Nova CEWS would be best IMO
iNARC- have ammo options for ECM, Haywire & Nemesis, which means you are devoting 8 tons to the system if you want 1 ton of each
MASC or Supercharger- gives you more options to place that ECM bubble where you need it
MML racks- load with Smoke LRM to help gain position & concealment, or load with ARAD munitions to take advantage of putting ECM pods out or enemy electronics networks
Active Probes- helps you defeat enemy ECM measures, especially if you are playing with more TacOps rules.
AMS-  You want to keep that EW machine alive longer, its going to be a bullet magnet
Blue Shield?  Same reasoning as AMS

Remote Sensors to me do not qualify b/c that is for scouts.  I want my EWar mech to be a force multiplier breaking up enemy networks . . . throwing their cohesion into disarray while my shooters are at work.

I think the Men Shen omni might be a optimal platform (leaving off the Blue Shield) for the IS, the Tufana (iNARC) hovercraft is another very good option since it can use terrain for cover easier.  Clan side I would say the Viper might be for mobility but its EW payload would be limited- Watchdog & iNARC w/2t ammo is it.  Black Lanner is better since it already comes with MASC, but that engine takes up a lot of space.  A Shadow Cat might be better for a more common chassis.

The main thing is . . . your EW is not a shooter and it has to be fast enough to get to the right position, so it should be able to avoid what might kill it.  So I do not care about it mounting much more than some missile racks (if) and a med laser or two- it SHOULD be considered very lightly armed.  It should also NEVER be alone, it exists to make your killers more effective.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #3 on: 09 April 2020, 02:45:11 »
Thats only the extra equipments. Electronic Warfare system in Battletech universe is no more than using ECM. There is nothing more about electronic warfare unless you make a homebrew one.

Iceweb

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #4 on: 09 April 2020, 02:51:43 »
The cyberpunk in me, wonders about (given enough tonnage) adding the Centurion Weapons System and/or the TSEMP Cannons.  Then fluff those as advanced hacking tools to take over and shut down enemy gear.   

On the other end of the spectrum, there is adding C3, Satellite Up-links, and Com gear, ect... to get more information into your data driven mech. 

Empyrus

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #5 on: 09 April 2020, 07:27:31 »
An ECM suite, Guardian or Angel depending on the era. Speed and armor to keep up with intended team mates, or to run next to an enemy if it is an interdictor type EWAR 'Mech.

For a support ECM unit, missiles with alternate munitions (that is, SRMs, LRMs, or MMLs) are a good idea.
For an interdictor, large pulse laser or snub-nose PPC as those have easy time hitting enemies and the range allows either standing beyond enemy ECM or being useful within ECM bubble.
For either type, TSEMP is a good idea once available, though 'Mechs with this need to be run in pairs probably, as firing the TSEMP disables ECM equipment for the next turn. Narc, especially iNarc, is also a good tool, and needs more love in general.

Stealth armor works provided the 'Mech makes it clear to a player that the stealth is not "100% on" thing. Better with Angel ECM obviously, due to ability to run dual modes with TacOps rules.

I'd slap an Active Probe and TAG there too if possible, expanding tool set for scouting doesn't hurt but this depends on available mass. The Raven is an excellent support 'Mech but its "does everything" nature hurts its durability and/or speed.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #6 on: 09 April 2020, 08:59:52 »
An ECM suite, Guardian or Angel depending on the era. Speed and armor to keep up with intended team mates, or to run next to an enemy if it is an interdictor type EWAR 'Mech.

For a support ECM unit, missiles with alternate munitions (that is, SRMs, LRMs, or MMLs) are a good idea.
For an interdictor, large pulse laser or snub-nose PPC as those have easy time hitting enemies and the range allows either standing beyond enemy ECM or being useful within ECM bubble.
For either type, TSEMP is a good idea once available, though 'Mechs with this need to be run in pairs probably, as firing the TSEMP disables ECM equipment for the next turn. Narc, especially iNarc, is also a good tool, and needs more love in general.

Stealth armor works provided the 'Mech makes it clear to a player that the stealth is not "100% on" thing. Better with Angel ECM obviously, due to ability to run dual modes with TacOps rules.

I'd slap an Active Probe and TAG there too if possible, expanding tool set for scouting doesn't hurt but this depends on available mass. The Raven is an excellent support 'Mech but its "does everything" nature hurts its durability and/or speed.

I don't recommend Stealth Armor at all for 'Electronic Warfare' unit, or it never acts as 'Electronic Warfare' unit. Remember that using Stealth Armor means your ECM cannot make any ECM or ECCM bubble.

Empyrus

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #7 on: 09 April 2020, 09:35:31 »
I don't recommend Stealth Armor at all for 'Electronic Warfare' unit, or it never acts as 'Electronic Warfare' unit. Remember that using Stealth Armor means your ECM cannot make any ECM or ECCM bubble.
I did say Angel is better (because it allows having both ECM bubble AND stealth armor on), and that the 'Mechs design should make it clear one isn't intended to enable stealth always. Stealth armor doesn't necessarily even cost BV, depending on 'Mech's heat output, so having stealth but leaving it disabled doesn't hurt. At distance when ECM doesn't necessarily matter? Stealth on and approach enemy. At close, disengage stealth and use ECM bubble.
This is more useful for an interdictor type to be sure, but workable for a support type as well.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #8 on: 09 April 2020, 09:41:18 »
I did say Angel is better (because it allows having both ECM bubble AND stealth armor on), and that the 'Mechs design should make it clear one isn't intended to enable stealth always. Stealth armor doesn't necessarily even cost BV, depending on 'Mech's heat output, so having stealth but leaving it disabled doesn't hurt. At distance when ECM doesn't necessarily matter? Stealth on and approach enemy. At close, disengage stealth and use ECM bubble.
This is more useful for an interdictor type to be sure, but workable for a support type as well.

Not really. While stealth armor is online, it prevents to activate ECM and ECCM bubble. Angel ECM is no exception, and all it can do is also making ghost target(but it also hampers the unit's accuracy as well even if it is successful).

If you want something compatible with ECM, then what you want is Chameleon LPS and/or Null Signature System. But no, Stealth Armor prevents ECM to works as its original purpose.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2020, 09:45:53 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

GreekFire

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #9 on: 09 April 2020, 09:46:15 »
Rather than just slathering on every non weapon in the game what does an EW Mech need? Note, EW, not spotter or scout.

For non-gear attributes, I'd say:
a) Good maneuverability, to ensure that you EW is where you need it, when you need it.
b) Some defensive systems to make the 'Mech less attractive as a primary target.
c) Relatively good survivability, since ECM tends to have limited range that forces its user to close with its target(s).
d) I'd also support the call for iNarc, just because of how much of a force multiplier it is.

Not really. While stealth armor is online, it prevents to activate ECM and ECCM bubble. Angel ECM is no exception, and all it can do is also making ghost target(but it also hampers the unit's accuracy as well even if it is successful).

Stealth is good for scouts and spotters, since you can turn it on to help you disengage and hide from faster scout hunters.
For what Jellico is looking for, though, Stealth is non-ideal.
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Empyrus

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #10 on: 09 April 2020, 09:49:09 »
Not really. While stealth armor is online, it prevents to activate ECM and ECCM bubble. Angel ECM is no exception, and all it can do is also making ghost target(but it also hampers the unit's accuracy as well even if it is successful).
Per TacOps Errata, with optional ECM rules in play, Angel ECM can be run as two standard ECM suites. I'm pretty sure there was a ruling one can elect to run one part as powering the stealth armor, and the other as ECCM, ECM or ghost targets depending on what you fancy.
Can't find the rule question at the moment though.


EDIT Duhh, of course it was in the errata. Can't create ECM or ECCM, can use ghost targets. Still, having stealth is useful, even you are not using it all the time.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2020, 09:50:51 by Empyrus »

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #11 on: 09 April 2020, 10:11:13 »
Yes. So while Angel ECM can be a choice for stealth armor, but since the topic is electronic warfare(and not scout/spotter) stealth armor is not suited for that.

Empyrus

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #12 on: 09 April 2020, 10:15:37 »
Still disagree. You don't run stealth 100% of time, only when ECM doesn't benefit things as much or at all. Stealth is excellent survival tool, and dead EWAR is useless EWAR, and finally a stealth 'Mech needs that ECM anyway.

Of canon 'Mechs, the Raven II is a good example of an EWAR 'Mech with stealth. Angel, stealth armor, TSEMP, MMLs.
If it has weakness, it is that Bloodhound Probe that takes weight away from Narc or additional MML munitions.

Colt Ward

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #13 on: 09 April 2020, 11:39:03 »
Thats only the extra equipments. Electronic Warfare system in Battletech universe is no more than using ECM. There is nothing more about electronic warfare unless you make a homebrew one.

The Marauder 9S is a good mech . . . its not a electronic warfare mech.  A E-War mech is going to do some of the same things IRL EW platforms like the EA-6B & EF-111A and their follow on systems.  For BTU, I think it would also include some aspects of what is considered a Wild Weasel mission.  IMO for BTU when discussing E-War you want to-

Jam sensors
Break telemetry
Degrade weapons performance remotely
Force the decision about keeping electronics active
Defeat enemy jamming

ECM systems will jam enemy sensors (Active Probes, hidden units, DB rules or hidden RS) and break up telemetry links (NARC, Artemis IV, ATM, C3, C3i and Nova CEWS).  ECM pods from iNARC puts out the ECM bubbles remotely and is a great complicating factor when fighting against C3 or C3i- hit that C3 Master with a ECM pod and its got a LOT of problems.  The ECM pod can be brushed off but that will cause other complications- or it is removed when that location is destroyed.

iNARC, besides ECM, also offers the Haywire and Nemesis options which fall under degrading weapons performance remotely.  Haywire is a variation on ECM (maybe makes that hex ECM, I cannot remember) where it focuses that effort into the chassis where it is attached.  Haywires hinder spotting for indirect (aka not possible) and makes it harder to hit targets (adds to +1 TH)- I love putting that on fire support designs.

TSEMP, which I had thought of when making the list but forgot as I was testing current chassis, offers to degrade enemy performance but I am not sure it makes a good E-War weapon since it stands a chance of degrading the platform's abilities and cycles every other turn.  Even when it does not shut down enemy equipment, it still causes penalties to their operations.

iNARC Nemesis pods and ARAD munitions can both force a enemy to decide about the risk of operating their own systems.  Nemesis pods can divert NARC, Semi-Guided and Homing A4 missiles onto the target with the pod if it is in LOS of the firing unit- this I am going to throw a question up to the Devs about the munition.  Either switch to ammo without bonuses, of if not equipped with standard ammo a commander has to consider not firing that weapon.  ARAD LRM & SRM munitions track on any electronic emissions on a target- NARC or iNARC beacon (even ignores enemy ECM bubbles), ECM suite, any AP type, C3 slave or master, Artemis IV/V, Apollo, Blue Shield, or Coms Equipment (3.5 or more)- which turns the gear into a penalty.  ARAD missiles get a -1 TH and a +1 on cluster roll when fired at such a equipped target, though flips & doubles those as penalties (+2/-2) when fired at targets that are not equipped.  ARAD missile loads also offer a synergy for EW- hit a target with a ECM pod and it can disrupt it the listed electronics and attracts ARAD missiles from any equipped launcher.

Active Probes of various types can offer information, though as noted the benefit depends on the rules in play.

Some sources consider target painting (TAG & NARC Homing Beacon) as part of EW but I think that is more for spotters in the scope of this discussion though good spotters include some EW capabilities.

One thing to note, a lot of the EW capabilities become more important if you are playing with hidden RS.  Then the Electronic Warfare Support with such things as active probes, or in this specific instance using remote sensors, comes into play as you are using your equipment to identify specifics about the enemy mechs to help with target prioritization- like detecting a mech with enough com gear to utilize a satellite uplink or give a Init bonus.  EWS has both tactical and strategic implications for campaigns- FREX while setting up target prioritization on your current battlefield you would also be able to start listing enemy assets in use to compare to intel on enemy Order of Battles.
Colt Ward
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Scotty

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #14 on: 09 April 2020, 11:55:06 »
Required: ECM of any kind.  That's it, that's the list.

Optional/specialist equipment: iNarc (Haywire, Nemesis Pods), TSEMP, and if you care about fluff that has no rules impact at least one PPC (even a light one).  An Active Probe can be useful for counter-EWAR (a hidden unit with ECM in ECM mode will jam a probe and you'll know the probe has been jammed).
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Colt Ward

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #15 on: 09 April 2020, 12:25:12 »
Scotty, is the Marauder 9S a E-War mech?

Definition-
"Electronic warfare (EW) is any action involving the use of the electromagnetic spectrum (EM spectrum) or directed energy to control the spectrum, attack an enemy, or impede enemy assaults. The purpose of electronic warfare is to deny the opponent the advantage of, and ensure friendly unimpeded access to, the EM spectrum."

As you cannot have 2 ECMs operating on the same machine- one in ECM and the other in ECCM- then I would suggest the baseline should be ECM so that it can be set in ECCM mode to 'ensure friendly unimpeded access' and iNARC with ECM pods to 'deny the opponent the advantage of . . . the EM spectrum.'
Colt Ward
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dgorsman

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #16 on: 09 April 2020, 13:01:46 »
As the title says.

Rather than just slathering on every non weapon in the game what does an EW Mech need? Note, EW, not spotter or scout.

What do you consider electronic warfare?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #17 on: 09 April 2020, 14:39:24 »
taking 3+ tons of communications equipment (2+ tons if a mech, due to the built in 1 ton) would be useful for the ECCM field. as well as the bonuses in double blind rules (where EWar plays a bigger role)

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #18 on: 09 April 2020, 17:12:58 »
Without a narrower definition of EW, Remote Sensor Dispensers would be useful, as they can deploy up to 30 Radar Sensors...

Jellico

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #19 on: 09 April 2020, 17:37:36 »
What do you consider electronic warfare?

Remarkably close to what is being discussed.

Because ECM, Active Probe, NARC, and TAG, all came out in one big hit people tend to stuff them into a single unit lile the Raven or Hellbringer.  However some of these like TAG suit scouts better.

I don't play with the ECCM rules very often so it is interesting to see things like iNARC be used defensively.


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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #20 on: 09 April 2020, 17:53:29 »
TAG is an ECCM device...   ^-^

RifleMech

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #21 on: 09 April 2020, 17:55:27 »
ECM equipment of some kind (Guardian, Angel, EW Equipment, Nova) to block enemy sensors.

Com. Equipment for ECCM equipment and ghost targets.

Stealth Armor or Null Sig and Chameleon LPS to keep hidden.

iNarc would be useful to mess with specific units.

Viral Jammers to mess with everyone.

Probes to seek out specific enemy units or detect and avoid enemy sentries and scouts.

Fast Speed (XXL Engine?) MASC and Super Chargers to get in and out quickly.

LAM Conversion Equipment to move about even faster and disrupt more troops. Not compatible with Stealth Systems but being level 1 in AirMech Mode can help it hide visually.

QuadVee Conversion Equipment for reasons similar to above.

Cosmetics, if still available, to again help visually disguise the unit. Especially, if Stealth Systems aren't available.


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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #22 on: 09 April 2020, 17:56:51 »
Imo it absolutely requires an AECM the second you can get one. The ability to cancel any GECM is vital in an ECM vs ECCM situation. Multi-role functionality a plus as discussed as are survivability features 

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Minemech

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #23 on: 09 April 2020, 18:22:27 »
 The Owens is a canon sample of an electronic warfare omni. The added capability of deploying battle armor is invaluable. Adding ECM is optional, but the versatility of the design is awesome.
« Last Edit: 09 April 2020, 18:34:29 by Minemech »

Empyrus

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #24 on: 09 April 2020, 18:31:30 »
The Owens is a canon sample of an electronic warfare omni. The added capability of deploying battle armor is invaluable.
It doesn't carry an ECM except in maybe one configuration, it is actually pretty damn poor EWAR OmniMech.
It is a great reconnaissance and spotter OmniMech as it has fixed TAG, Beagle Active Probe, and C3 Slave.

Minemech

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #25 on: 09 April 2020, 18:38:08 »
It doesn't carry an ECM except in maybe one configuration, it is actually pretty damn poor EWAR OmniMech.
It is a great reconnaissance and spotter OmniMech as it has fixed TAG, Beagle Active Probe, and C3 Slave.
For its time period, it is the best in the game bar none.

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #26 on: 09 April 2020, 18:45:44 »
For its time period, it is the best in the game bar none.
With what? The Owens did not get an ECM config until the Jihad with the F config (EDIT And ECM grows on trees during the Jihad, not much need for a specialized ECM carrier since ECM variants are plentiful otherwise). Now i like the Owens, but i'm not gonna have it doing EWAR duties without suitable equipment. Hell, doesn't do much else than be a spotter and BA taxi with the configs as they are...

The Men Shen is better really. Good configs, ECM in the C, better overall design than the Owens.
A pity the Raptor has no ECM, it would be better than the Owens.

Minemech

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #27 on: 09 April 2020, 18:54:01 »
With what? The Owens did not get an ECM config until the Jihad with the F config (EDIT And ECM grows on trees during the Jihad, not much need for a specialized ECM carrier since ECM variants are plentiful otherwise). Now i like the Owens, but i'm not gonna have it doing EWAR duties without suitable equipment. Hell, doesn't do much else than be a spotter and BA taxi with the configs as they are...

The Men Shen is better really. Good configs, ECM in the C, better overall design than the Owens.
A pity the Raptor has no ECM, it would be better than the Owens.
Electronic Reconnaissance is a vital form of EW.

Minemech

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #28 on: 09 April 2020, 18:55:54 »
 One thing your going to have to sort out is if the EW is for a lance, which a Dragon Fire can handle, or if it is for the greater unit as an Owens, Scarabus, or Raven would enable.

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Re: What does an Electronic Warfare Mech need?
« Reply #29 on: 09 April 2020, 19:02:33 »
Electronic Reconnaissance is a vital form of EW.
Unfortunately ECM in BattleTech defeats probes ("something's jamming me" tends to be a very bad sign), so the Owens is helpless against foes who happen to have ECM. Since it, you know, lacks ECM of its own.

Probes are good, but can't rely on them alone.

A pity the Ostscout 9S is largely a Steiner 'Mech, seems to be a very good scout platform. Kurita could learn from it.

 

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