Fight Night: BNC-3M vs GHR-5H

[Arkansas Warrior]

I haven't played MegaMek in forever, the version I have is probably terribly out of date, but I kind of want to fire it up to run this one a few times.

[worktroll]

That's about how I see it - the Banshee needs to be lucky to win, the Grasshopper needs to be competent.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Exactly... superior maneuverability (which jump jets grant in spades) turns terrain to the advantage of the 'mech with it.

That depends hugely on the terrain in question.  If you were jumping into woods, or behind even a level 1 hill, I'd agree.

Woods are concealment, they don't stop fire, but the do make it harder to hit.
Intervening elevations are cover.  They stop, partially or in full, oncoming fire at the expense of blocking similar outgoing fire.

Rough terrain, rivers, or elevation changes that are not cover are neither.  They do zilch to stop or complicate the to hit roll for an incoming PPC bolt.  Jumping just for the sake of distance does little if you are still standing in the open to be fired upon, which seems to be the argument here.

The Banshee here has two modes it wants to fight in.  One is "In your face", toe to toe, using it's lasers, maybe a PPC if the TN's and heat aren't too bad, and two 10 point punches.  But that isn't the only mode.

The Grasshopper wants to fight close, in the 2 to 3 hex range band, 2 by preference, and in this mode the Banshee wants to make the Grasshopper pay to close, generally with the PPCs.  Jumping away when initiative is lost requires the Grasshopper to start closing again.  Jumping away to someplace without cover or concealment on the assumption the Banshee must chase after the Grasshopper?  That is offering him a free shot before the dance starts again.

I'm doubting how much the extra mobility is effective in keeping the fight constantly in such a narrow range band, barring very terrain heavy maps the already heavily favor jump jets and close range combat.

It is extra mobility, but is it enough to be decisive is what I'm contesting.  That is before you get into the Banshee's extra weight and armor being able to tank more damage.

[Daryk]

My original response was answering the question of how to defeat the punching tactic.  Yes, the Banshee has other options, but that wasn't what I was addressing.  Dealing with the PPCs DOES require more terrain than rough, rubble or water.

[Retry]

You can doubt all you want.  Recently finished game #8.  Score's currently 7 Grasshopper, 1 Banshee.

[Greatclub]

You can doubt all you want.  Recently finished game #8.  Score's currently 7 Grasshopper, 1 Banshee.

What maps?

[Retry]

What maps?

We've played most of them on the 25x25 map Hel Hasard in MM, currently.  There's a bit of everything, but not a ridiculous amount of everything.

[Daryk]

You can doubt all you want.  Recently finished game #8.  Score's currently 7 Grasshopper, 1 Banshee.

Sounds about right to me!  8)

[Vonshroom]

As I said up thread, terrain is the determining factor here, and the vast majority of maps will favor the Grasshopper.

Exactly, barring very open terrain with no cover, level changes etc. Grasshopper has the advantage assuming it plays correctly.

[Vonshroom]

The Banshee here has two modes it wants to fight in.  One is "In your face", toe to toe, using it's lasers, maybe a PPC if the TN's and heat aren't too bad, and two 10 point punches.  But that isn't the only mode.

I personally think the grasshopper has a substanital edge. To really evaluate this you need to think of how you play both mechs.

As a Banshee pilot I am going to want the Grasshopper to be 9+ hexes away with low to hit numbers, or 0-4 hexes away and hope I can either smack him with my fists or my PPC's every turn. Heat is going to become an issue very fast though, while the Grasshopper has no worries there. My big concern is getting overheated and watching the Grasshopper take me apart, or have it backstab me. Honestly the Hopper will be able to take a few PPC's in close and eventually is going to win initiative and get behind me. It can fall back most of the time out of Melee distance if it wants to. If it stays at longer ranges it can smack me with an LRM-5 and I likely won't be able to answer with PPC's due to high THN.  Even if I do land a PPC or two I am going to be running a high heat curve.

I'm not saying the Banshee cannot win, but it definitely has a disadvantage. At every range the Banshee has to be nervous, whereas the Grasshopper only has to be really nervous when there is no cover & it loses its initiative at extremely close ranges or at ranges 9-18 with low THN for the Banshee. Barring those two scenarios the Grasshopper has the advantage.

[Crimson Dawn]

Yea that heat is a problem.  The banshee will hit the point where it loses speed if it uses both PPCs and moves if I recall its specs correctly. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yup.  Both PPCs and walking puts it at +5 heat.

[Weirdo]

That's not a problem. Nothing wrong with a 2/1 firing pattern, especially since if you're firing both PPCs, odds are the Hopper is outside the minimums and thus probably at a range disadvantage. You can still maneuver decently at 3/5. If it fired them and dropped to 2/3, that'd be a problem.

[Vonshroom]

Yea that heat is a problem.  The banshee will hit the point where it loses speed if it uses both PPCs and moves if I recall its specs correctly.

And now there is no question who has the mobility advantage.....

[Retry]

It's kinda been a problem in the duels.  That 1 extra MP is often the difference between reaching a position with an extra 1 TH bonus in your favor.  Or sometimes, being able to reach an advantageous position at all.

(Duel #10 done yesterday.  Hopper 8, Banshee 1, Tie 1.  On hiatus.)

[worktroll]

I admit I thought things were in the 'Hopper's favour, but more like 65%/35%. But yes, the Banshee has to be lucky, the 'Hopper just needs to be competent. And with the two bots fighting with the same competence, the numbers show.

[Retry]

I admit I thought things were in the 'Hopper's favour, but more like 65%/35%. But yes, the Banshee has to be lucky, the 'Hopper just needs to be competent. And with the two bots fighting with the same competence, the numbers show.

Oh no, these results are human v human.  I already posted the AI-AI results earlier in the thread.

[worktroll]

Would you say the luck vs competence hypothesis is valid?

[Arkansas Warrior]

I personally think the grasshopper has a substanital edge. To really evaluate this you need to think of how you play both mechs.

As a Banshee pilot I am going to want the Grasshopper to be 9+ hexes away with low to hit numbers, or 0-4 hexes away and hope I can either smack him with my fists or my PPC's every turn. Heat is going to become an issue very fast though, while the Grasshopper has no worries there. My big concern is getting overheated and watching the Grasshopper take me apart, or have it backstab me. Honestly the Hopper will be able to take a few PPC's in close and eventually is going to win initiative and get behind me. It can fall back most of the time out of Melee distance if it wants to. If it stays at longer ranges it can smack me with an LRM-5 and I likely won't be able to answer with PPC's due to high THN.  Even if I do land a PPC or two I am going to be running a high heat curve.

I'm not saying the Banshee cannot win, but it definitely has a disadvantage. At every range the Banshee has to be nervous, whereas the Grasshopper only has to be really nervous when there is no cover & it loses its initiative at extremely close ranges or at ranges 9-18 with low THN for the Banshee. Barring those two scenarios the Grasshopper has the advantage.

I don' think saying that the Banshee want to be 0-4 hexes away is quite right.  The Banshee would be happy to be in punch range, certainly.  Nut it gains almost nothing from range 2-3.  Its small laser comes into play I guess, but rane 2 also gives the PPCs a minimum range penalty, and range 3 still leaves the GHR in short range for its MLs.  Much better to be at 4+ where the 'Hopper is getting worse TNs while the Bansheeg cycles its PPCs.  It doesn't want to be at 0-4, it wants to either be at contact range, or 4+.  On the high end, it probably prefers 11-12 hexes over 9, since that puts the Grasshopper's Large Laser in long range while the PPCs remain in medium.


Honestly, I don't think a competently-run Banshee is really going to have heat issues or get backstabbed, failing a tremendous run of bad luck.  Heat is easy to manage.  The only way the BNC should have real heat worries is if it gets a chance to blast the Grasshopper on good TNs, but then rolls badly.  ie, for some reason they get at range one and the BNC rolls the dice on ending it *now* with an alpha strike; then the next turn is going to be bad, heat wise.  Likewise, it's going to take losing init several turns in a row, or really really unfavorable terrain, for the Banshee to let the Grasshopper behind it.  Really, I think the two are rarely going to be less than 2 hexes apart.  If the BNC loses init, it pulls back.  If the GHR loses init, it pulls back.  Neither has enough speed advantage to dictate rang on any one turn.  Even if they start in contact range, the GHR isn't going to be able to jump behind the BNC unless the Banshee backed into a wall or something.  The GHR is going to have to win init for multiple turns in a row to get behind the Banshee in most situations.  Both units should be nervous most of the time, because both have advantages in different situations.  Either one has to know that single slip-up at the wrong time can give the other guy the opening he needs to flip the odds.

[Retry]

Would you say the luck vs competence hypothesis is valid?

I'd say it's valid.  The way I'd put it is that the Grasshopper "feels" like it's setting the tempo of the match, even in terms where it loses initiative, if that makes sense.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Anybody want to meet me in MegaMek somewhere and play this out?  The other polls have been interesting theoretical discussions, but this is one I actually want to try.

[Vonshroom]

Would you say the luck vs competence hypothesis is valid?

Totally valid, and well said.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

You can doubt all you want.  Recently finished game #8.  Score's currently 7 Grasshopper, 1 Banshee.

   Pretty much this. Once the Grasshopper gets into knife fighting range, the PPCs become a liability and the chance of back shots and landing punches increase. I was even tempted to dump the LRM ammo, as I never used them.