Poll

Who wins?

Flamberge A- large advantage
8 (57.1%)
Flamberge A- small advantage
5 (35.7%)
Too close to call
0 (0%)
Thor II Prime- large advantage
1 (7.1%)
Thor II Prime- small advantage
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime  (Read 3264 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25627
  • It's just my goth phase
Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« on: 13 April 2020, 22:24:58 »
Two omnimechs, both built by the Jade Falcons, with identical weight, identical jumping ability, and near dead on even BV.

They have a few differences in ground movement, armor, and armament.  Will the Flamberge's ER PPC and Large pulse give it an edge due to bigger damage clusters followed by a whole lot of close-range crit seeking?  Or does the Thor II's superior mid-range game and ground speed make the difference?

I'm interested in what people have to say.
« Last Edit: 14 April 2020, 09:32:15 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #1 on: 14 April 2020, 09:11:57 »
If I could suggest, lay out the stats for these sorts of things?  Flamberge A has X speed, Y weapons, and Z armor . . . Grand Summoner has A speed, B weapons and C armor.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25627
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #2 on: 14 April 2020, 09:40:06 »
All right.

Both mechs are 70 ton omnimechs built by Clan Jade Falcon.

The Flamberge A moves 4/6/5 and is protected by 13.5 tons of standard armor, giving it the maximum the chassis can hold.  It possesses a Clan ER PPC and Large Pulse laser tied to a targeting computer for long range, backed up by four SRM 6 pods once it gets close.

The Thor II moves 5/8/5 and is protected by 10 tons of Ferro Fibrous armor, with near maximum protection in most places but the legs, which are rather thin.  It mounts two Ultra 5 ACs, an LRM-15, and 4 Clan ER Medium Lasers.  Outside of SRM range it outguns the Flamberge, but the Flamberge has larger cluster hits (including the only headcapper) and is more accurate.  If the Flamberge manages to get into 6 hexes or so, it has significant crit-seeking ability.

For the sake of the exercise, let's assume 4/5 for the pilot/gunnery scores of both mechs.  Lower than what you'd probably see in a game but makes it more about the strengths and weaknesses of each mech.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28957
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2020, 09:50:51 »
I would also say outside of 15 hexes the Flamberge is going to outgun the Grand.  I actually think the Grand benefits if the map is relatively open for movement- one it can close, but it can also run vs jumping the Flamberge has to do to get the +3 TH mod.  The Flamberge jumping gets it that +3 TH but the TC offsets the jumping penalty . . . so its a bit of a wash in that regard but its the only way to match up with the +3 TH the Grand gets running.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2020, 09:57:12 »
First off I need to confess a bias:  I don't like the Flamberge.  Never have.   I'm not entirely sure why.  I think part of it is the inefficiency of 5 IJJs on a 4/6 mech.  That's a lot of extra weight to jump one extra hex.  Part of it may be the fixed SRMs.  Fixed guns on an omni?  Fine I guess for the First Generation IS Omnis, when they were still figuring the concept out.  But a clan omni in the 3080s?  That's silly.  But even so I think the Flamberge takes it here.  The ERPPC and LPL are two of the best weapons in the game, and that's a lot of crit-seeking once it closes.  And it has more armor.  And it has a TC.  The Thor does have a higher groundspeed, and can put out more midsized clusters, but I think the Flamberge takes it.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4983
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #5 on: 14 April 2020, 10:59:39 »
Because it has enough SRM ammo to devote a ton to infernos, I'll go Flamberge more often than not. The Thor can just barely remain heat neutral on a walking alpha strike so long as it single rates the cannons. So one SRM 6 firing infernos will average 12 extra heat, enough to seriously inconvenience the Thor.

The Thor also doesn't have enough AC ammo to really make effective use of the ultras anyway.
I have spoken.


GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #6 on: 14 April 2020, 11:13:42 »
The Flimflam, 100%, no contest, especially with 4/5 pilots. In a jumpy battle of heavy cav, the TargComp'd LPL is king.

The Thor doesn't really have a range it can fight at to eek out an advantage. Its main guns have less of a punch and less accuracy than the Flam. Its back-up array has better range, but like others said, carrying some Infernos for the SRMs can force the Thor II player to make some choices about bringing them into play. It's the Flam's game to lose.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #7 on: 14 April 2020, 11:29:08 »
Because it has enough SRM ammo to devote a ton to infernos, I'll go Flamberge more often than not. The Thor can just barely remain heat neutral on a walking alpha strike so long as it single rates the cannons. So one SRM 6 firing infernos will average 12 extra heat, enough to seriously inconvenience the Thor.

The Thor also doesn't have enough AC ammo to really make effective use of the ultras anyway.
If the Thor II pilot is good, Infernos are a non-issue.  The Thor II is 5/8/5, the Flamberge is 4/6/5.  The Thor II is just too quick, so the only way the Flamberge is going to get into SRM range is if the Thor II lets him.

On the other hand, if the Thor II pilot is smart, he's going to use his speed to avoid engaging with the Flamberge anyways.  An ERPPC and LPL with a targeting computer on both is not my idea of a fun time.  The only winning move here is not to play.

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #8 on: 14 April 2020, 12:26:17 »
Yeah forget even trying to call shots with the Targeting Computer and lay into a total of -3 all day for the LPL and it is just a matter of time before the ER-PPC either gets lucky or the damage starts adding up.  Absolutely the Flam's fight to lose with both being 4/5s.

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10397
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #9 on: 14 April 2020, 13:53:43 »
Part of it may be the fixed SRMs.  Fixed guns on an omni?  Fine I guess for the First Generation IS Omnis, when they were still figuring the concept out.  But a clan omni in the 3080s?  That's silly. 

Herb made me. I'm not sure why.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

HABeas2

  • Grand Vizier
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #10 on: 15 April 2020, 00:56:42 »
Herb made me. I'm not sure why.

I made you what?

- Herb

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #11 on: 15 April 2020, 01:14:09 »
The Flimflam, 100%, no contest, especially with 4/5 pilots. In a jumpy battle of heavy cav, the TargComp'd LPL is king.

The Thor doesn't really have a range it can fight at to eek out an advantage.

Except for the ranges of 10-15, inclusive, where the Thor II is responding with every single gun it has but the Flamberge has ER PPC and LPL only, and exactly 21 hexes where the Flamberge has the ER PPC only and the Thor II has two Ultra/5s and two LRM launchers for some reason I mixed up which Thor II had the LRM-5.  Fortunately, it's damage doesn't meaningfully affect any of the numbers later.

At skill 4/5, it's still the Flamberge assuming both jumped 5 hexes to get where they're going, leaving it at 11 and 9 versus 12s across the board.  Every point of skill improvement applied to both 'Mechs pushes things further from the end of the bell curve, and the Thor II starts to come out on top of expected damage trades right around 1/2 between 1/2 and 0/1 (huh, the LRM-5 did change things a bit), but the gap closes very quickly from the extreme.

Expected damage at 4/5: Flamberge ~4.03, Thor II ~1.31
Expected damage at 3/4: Flamberge ~6.67, Thor II ~3.92
Expected damage at 2/3: Flamberge = 10, Thor II ~7.83
Expected damage at 1/2: Flamberge ~13.47, Thor II ~13.06
Expected damage at 0/1: Flamberge ~17.08, Thor II ~19.58

With 4/5 pilot it's still the Flamberge's fight to lose, but literally any reduction in to-hit numbers that applies to both units will close the gap.  Which is really just bell_curve.jpg.  And I think I'd still take the Thor II against all comers or an unknown enemy.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2020, 01:20:32 by Scotty »
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19826
  • Kid in the puddle eating mud of CGL contributors
    • Master Unit List
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #12 on: 15 April 2020, 01:16:42 »
i enjoy the fact that the SRM ammo feed is the most ridiculous of all ridiculous ammo feeds. i love this mech. it's what i'd run if i were a clan pilot


You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10397
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #13 on: 15 April 2020, 07:20:56 »
I made you what?

- Herb

Keep the SRMs hard-mounted instead of pod mounted.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #14 on: 15 April 2020, 09:25:55 »
i enjoy the fact that the SRM ammo feed is the most ridiculous of all ridiculous ammo feeds. i love this mech. it's what i'd run if i were a clan pilot


How so?  Isn’t that them in the torsos? ???
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4983
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #15 on: 15 April 2020, 09:50:24 »
How so?  Isn’t that them in the torsos? ???

I believe so. I think he's confusing them with the ATM launchers mounted atop the wings.

Good luck getting reloads into those.   ???
I have spoken.


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25627
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #16 on: 15 April 2020, 10:00:27 »
It's actually easy using Clan Jade Falcon's patented short-range ammunition teleportation system.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #17 on: 15 April 2020, 10:02:46 »
Except for the ranges of 10-15, inclusive, where the Thor II is responding with every single gun it has but the Flamberge has ER PPC and LPL only, and exactly 21 hexes where the Flamberge has the ER PPC only and the Thor II has two Ultra/5s and two LRM launchers for some reason I mixed up which Thor II had the LRM-5.  Fortunately, it's damage doesn't meaningfully affect any of the numbers later.

Scotty, your numbers are a bit off. For your example, it should be ranges 8-10 - the ER Mediums literally can't hit the Flamberge at ranges 11+ with 4/5 pilots if both 'Mechs jump. It's a 14 to-hit. And the LRMs/Ultra-5 can't hit at ranges 15+; once again, it's a 14 to-hit.

That said, your expected damage is correct - for ranges 8-10 - but at ranges 11+, it's pretty severely in the Flam's favor.
And you can't really say "except for these ranges"...when you then show that at those ranges, the Flam is dishing out more damage on average for almost every pilot.
« Last Edit: 15 April 2020, 10:04:19 by GreekFire »
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #18 on: 15 April 2020, 10:07:12 »
I believe so. I think he's confusing them with the ATM launchers mounted atop the wings.

Good luck getting reloads into those.   ???

Pretty sure the wing launchers are the SRMs, quoting from Sarna:
"After removing much of the internal components of the wings, retaining the inbuilt Pattern J7 SRM-6 launchers in the shoulders to avoid further delays,"

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13687
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #19 on: 15 April 2020, 10:10:36 »
Sure I can since I also took the time to explain why the numbers are what they are; assuming both are jumping 5 every turn is the worst case scenario for the Thor II.  A single turn where it can manage a +3 TMM on a run to exactly 10 hexes (not particularly likely, but absolutely a goal to aim for) and suddenly we're comparing the Flamberge's top row with the Thor II's second row.  Walk 5 into range 10, and we're just as suddenly on Flamberge second  vs. Thor II third, and that's a genuine advantage breakpoint for the Thor.

The point of my post was that there are ranges where the Thor can eke out marginal advantage as a direct rebuttal to your assertion that there is no such range.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19826
  • Kid in the puddle eating mud of CGL contributors
    • Master Unit List
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #20 on: 15 April 2020, 10:10:45 »
yeah whatever the wing launchers are.

this is further evidence toward my theory that all internal cargo in the battletech universe is actually liquid until exposed to the outside atmosphere

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9203
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #21 on: 15 April 2020, 10:15:09 »
I thought those things on the wings were part of the jump jet system, in the same way that planes’ engines are often mounted in/on the wings.
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 19826
  • Kid in the puddle eating mud of CGL contributors
    • Master Unit List
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #22 on: 15 April 2020, 10:28:12 »
could be. but then there are no visible ATMs. when in doubt, assume the ridiculous option is the real one.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Interviewer: Since you’ve stopped making art, how do you spend your time?
Paul Chan Breathers: Oh, I’m a breather. I’m a respirateur. Isn’t that enough?

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #23 on: 15 April 2020, 10:54:55 »
Sure I can since I also took the time to explain why the numbers are what they are; assuming both are jumping 5 every turn is the worst case scenario for the Thor II.  A single turn where it can manage a +3 TMM on a run to exactly 10 hexes (not particularly likely, but absolutely a goal to aim for) and suddenly we're comparing the Flamberge's top row with the Thor II's second row.  Walk 5 into range 10, and we're just as suddenly on Flamberge second  vs. Thor II third, and that's a genuine advantage breakpoint for the Thor.

The point of my post was that there are ranges where the Thor can eke out marginal advantage as a direct rebuttal to your assertion that there is no such range.

Good point. I'll take that into consideration.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Fat Guy

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4983
  • I make beer disappear. What's your superpower?
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #24 on: 15 April 2020, 10:59:39 »
Pretty sure the wing launchers are the SRMs, quoting from Sarna:
"After removing much of the internal components of the wings, retaining the inbuilt Pattern J7 SRM-6 launchers in the shoulders to avoid further delays,"

Art of ATM launchers almost always shows them with with the square covers over the tubes like the wing launchers.

But whatever. I don't feel like getting into an art vs. rules vs. fluff argument.

Back on topic. Flamberge wins most of the time.
I have spoken.


HABeas2

  • Grand Vizier
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #25 on: 15 April 2020, 13:59:23 »
Keep the SRMs hard-mounted instead of pod mounted.

Sounds weird. Wonder why I would have done that?

- Herb

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9102
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #26 on: 15 April 2020, 14:08:37 »
Sounds weird. Wonder why I would have done that?

- Herb
Probably to push the "this thing is somewhat rushed" angle?

monbvol

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13267
  • I said don't look!
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #27 on: 15 April 2020, 14:13:29 »
And it was better than the alternatives for what you could give Kit money for that would amuse you?

HABeas2

  • Grand Vizier
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #28 on: 16 April 2020, 01:12:55 »
I'm trying to remember; there were an awful lot of casualties that day...

- Herb

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #29 on: 16 April 2020, 09:10:06 »
I'm trying to remember; there were an awful lot of casualties that day...

- Herb
Invert the polarities!
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 25627
  • It's just my goth phase
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #30 on: 16 April 2020, 09:45:37 »
It was probably a decision that was made by Herb's cat.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

HABeas2

  • Grand Vizier
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6202
Re: Fight Night: Flamberge A Vs Thor II Prime
« Reply #31 on: 16 April 2020, 10:01:05 »
It was probably a decision that was made by Herb's cat.

Anything's possible.

Or WAS possible, anyway.

- Herb

 

Register