Poll

Which of these is your favored mech for a medium fire lance?

CPLT-C1 Catapult
13 (21.7%)
CPLT-C4 Catapult
1 (1.7%)
DV-6M Dervish
11 (18.3%)
LCT-1M Locust
0 (0%)
TBT-5J Trebuchet
3 (5%)
TBT-5N Trebuchet
11 (18.3%)
VLK-QA Valkyrie
0 (0%)
WTH-1 Whitworth
4 (6.7%)
HBK-4J Hunchback
5 (8.3%)
BMB-10D Bombardier
0 (0%)
CRD-3R Crusader
5 (8.3%)
I want to be an observer [No vote]
5 (8.3%)
JM6-A Jagermech
0 (0%)
CPLT-A1 Catapult
1 (1.7%)
CRD-3L Crusader
1 (1.7%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Voting closed: 30 April 2020, 19:10:23

Author Topic: Medium Fire Lance poll  (Read 7739 times)

Minemech

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Medium Fire Lance poll
« on: 16 April 2020, 19:10:23 »
Which of these is your favored mech for a fire lance in a medium company? Why?
 Feel free to throw in factors such as long term costs vs battlefield effectiveness, or whatever else interests you.
 I intentionally left out some choices like the Archer. This was not to denigrate them.

 EDIT: If there is a mech I overlooked, that you really want to vote for, I am reading the comments, and can modify the poll. I cannot guarantee that I will do it within an ideal timeframe. The mechs above show that the emphasis is on what is currently called introtech, but was formerly known as tech 1.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2020, 19:58:42 by Minemech »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #1 on: 17 April 2020, 00:11:40 »
5N Treb.  It's not great, but something about it just feels right for a medium fire support mech.
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #2 on: 17 April 2020, 00:15:03 »
Of the ones listed, I'd agree. I'd probably take the Hunchback 4J over the Treb, or the 4H - yes, I know 'fire lance' does not 100% mean 'indirect fire", but LRM-20 beats AC-10, and 5ML on a heavily armoured shell ain't too shabby bracket fire.
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Crimson Dawn

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #3 on: 17 April 2020, 00:27:37 »
I voted for a C1 catapult because it is just great.  Granted it does not carry a lot of ammo but it does some good work at range and then can get up close and be very effective.

Honorable mention goes to the Dervish which is also a great all rounder and could make for a decent scout for the lance if needed.  It also can carry infernos with its SRMs which is very versatile.  Only reason I did not choose it was because if this was the direct fire lance I first want a unit with a little bit more firepower at range.

Oddly in my Succession War merc unit I made up the fire lance includes both a C1 catapult and the dervish.  The other two units are a vindicator and a whitworth.

Sartris

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #4 on: 17 April 2020, 00:29:38 »
Contenders
CPLT-C1 - sentimental pick. it really is one of my favorite mechs. not enough ammo though
CPLT-C4 - better, but i generally don't put a fire support heavy in a medium lance
TBT-5N - boring, but both mobile and effective.
WTH-1 - i have a deep-seeded hatred for this guy. it's probably unwarranted
HBK-4J - it bugs me that both launchers are in the same torso. it's good otherwise.

Nah
DV-6M - lost too many to ammo explosions
LCT-1M - lol?
TBT-5J - only if i need fire support that can jump 5. i'd probably rather have a dervish in that case.
VLK-QA - not enough tubes
BMB-10D - even worse ammo issues
CRD-3R - ammo bomb

i'd probably go with the treb or hunchback

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worktroll

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #5 on: 17 April 2020, 00:50:41 »
Lance of Trebuchets - 120 LRM tubes, 15 medium lasers, 30 tons of armour.

Lance of Hunchbacks - 80 LRM tubes, 25 medium lasers, 40 tons of armour.

Of course, you can make your fire lance 2 Hunchies and 2 Trebs!
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Vonshroom

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #6 on: 17 April 2020, 03:05:28 »
Easy one. Picked the 5N Trebuchet because I have had good luck with them. Boringly reliable comes to mind. Nothing fancy, but they get the job done. In universe I imagine them to be very similar to this description as well. Ran one for a while in a mercenary lance I put together for TT and its proved its worth.

Honorable mention to the Dervish. The ammo situation makes me a little nervous but there is just something fun about the mech. If I am putting together a more mobile lance (all Jumpers) the Dervish wins out over the 5J Trebuchet in my book.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #7 on: 17 April 2020, 03:52:50 »
LCT-1M - lol?
Honestly, I like the Locust 1M. But putting it in a Medium Fire Lance seems like a waste.

Daryk

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #8 on: 17 April 2020, 04:33:54 »
The Hunchback wins on versatility, I think.

Ruger

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #9 on: 17 April 2020, 06:23:35 »
Dervish, no holds barred. To me, for a medium Fire (support) unit, it has to be there. It has the speed (for its size), mobility, and firepower to contribute in any battle.

And to the naysayers worried about ammo, I had one last 22 rounds in a 24 round game, and only lost it after a leg had been blown off, and it did not die to ammo explosion IIRC. I still had ammo for both LRM launchers too, and had made alpha strikes with it at least twice in the game (and that is with the introtech 6M model).

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #10 on: 17 April 2020, 07:07:26 »
Trebuchet 5N.

Good long range. Decent short range. Mobile. Heat isn't too bad if you bracket fire, and the armor doesn't completely suck.

One giant collection of compromises, but it works.
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #11 on: 17 April 2020, 07:45:27 »
Honestly, I like the Locust 1M. But putting it in a Medium Fire Lance seems like a waste.

That’s what I mean. The 1M is not a good fit for a situation where it’s going to die in one or two hits

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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #12 on: 17 April 2020, 07:53:09 »
I still take the CRD.  For everyone that complains about ammo boomminess I have never had a problem with that.  Usually I am out of LRMs before that really becomes an issue.  The only thing I hate about it is the designers intent on putting MGs on it instead of extra HS.  Why oh why did everything in the original box set have to include 2 wasted tons of MGs?

Simon Landmine

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #13 on: 17 April 2020, 10:42:13 »
The only thing I hate about it is the designers intent on putting MGs on it instead of extra HS.  Why oh why did everything in the original box set have to include 2 wasted tons of MGs?

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #14 on: 17 April 2020, 10:58:55 »
A rational fear of infantry. >:D
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #15 on: 17 April 2020, 11:21:48 »
CPLT-C1 Catapult - Twin LRM-20s with limited ammo and effectively no defense?  Not ideal, in my opinion, AND it's a Heavy. 

CPLT-C4 Catapult - Twin LRM-15s make this rather effective at LRM spam while the limited ammo lasts, and then it's a Heavy in-fighter to be feared.  I'd gladly put one or two in a HEAVY Fire Lance, but not a Medium.

DV-6M Dervish - Reasonable firepower, good mobility, and adequate armor.  Nothing spectacular, but adequate all around.  There are better choices, but it would do.

LCT-1M Locust - This unit is excellent for raiding and harassing, in the right hands, but totally under-gunned for a Fire Support role except possibly for a fast Light formation.  It's likely to survive a battle due to its speed, but that won't save your front line.  Pass, quickly.

TBT-5J Trebuchet - Adequate LRM capability and good maneuverability make this a viable choice for a "cavalry" type force, but the jump capability takes away too much from its intended role compared to the -5N model.  Depending on the force I'm using it with, it's either a reasonable choice or a mediocre one.

TBT-5N Trebuchet - Twin LRM-15s provide excellent LRM spam while the limited ammo lasts, but the shallow bins are a "feature" rather than a flaw, because the thin torso side armor won't last more than a couple of hits.  I've seen far too many of these 'Mechs blow up when the unpadded ammo bins take a hit.  You MUST use up the ammo before losing the side torso armor, but then it turns into a semi-decent brawler with 3 MLs and reasonable 5/8 mobility.  It's not perfect, but probably my #2 choice for the role.

VLK-QA Valkyrie - The single LRM-10 rack just isn't adequate for the tonnage, and the single backup weapon offers little defense.  The 5/8/5 speed isn't quite enough to protect it against the fast units that would typically be used to attack a fire support unit, and it can't out-fight them.  Quite simply, there is no reason to take this 'Mech unless it's all you have.

WTH-1 Whitworth - The WTH delivers the same twin LRM-10 barrage as a DV and packs similar short range firepower, as well as similar armor, in a package that's 15 tons lighter and costs far less.  The difference is primarily in speed: 4/6/4 instead of 5/8/5, which is fine for supporting a Medium front line of HBK, CN, ENF, and VND units, but a bit slow for backing up a more mobile formation of 5/8/x movers.  If cost or tonnage are a constraint, then the WTH offers the best "bang for the buck", but it's not the best unit out there overall.  Once the ammo bins run dry, the triple MLs come into play, and it's generally more than adequate as an in-fighter against the already hammered units remaining on the front line.  With no tonnage or cost constraints to make it preferable, it's simply less 'Mech than the heavier options, but will hold its own surprisingly well against most of them.

HBK-4J Hunchback - This thing is remarkable.  It delivers the same LRM firepower as a DV or WTH, and then converts into a powerful brawler once the ammo runs out.  It shares the depressingly thin rear side armor of its HBK siblings, but that ceases to be a problem when the bins are empty.  It also shares their decent heat sinking, as well as their decent armor, and packs 5 MLs, making it nearly as fearsome in close as a -4P.  It makes the perfect bodyguard for a Fire Lance, and is my FIRST choice overall, but I wouldn't want a full lance of them because I'd rather have a couple of TBTs and GRFs providing the bulk of the ranged support, with one or two of this thing to protect them while contributing to the main mission.

BMB-10D Bombardier - Again, it's not a Medium, and is poorly protected.  The right tool for some other job, not this one.  Pass.

CRD-3R Crusader - The twin LRM-15s deliver effective long-range support, but the heat sinking is rather marginal, forcing occasional firing of only one rack, which leaves it only slightly more effective at sustained fire than with twin LRM-10s.  The secondary weaponry is rather impressive on paper, until you realize how little you can fire in a sustained engagement.  Then there's the issue of LRM ammo, SRM ammo, and MG ammo, and a tendency to go up in a blaze of something that I would not consider "glory".  Worse, the SRMs cannot be fired into the side arcs, as they are leg mounted, leaving the 'Mech somewhat under-gunned against anything that gets around it and out of its front arc of fire.  Basically, it's a dangerous opponent, but with major weaknesses which can be exploited.  As with the CPLT and BMB, it's also a Heavy, so that's another strike against it in this role.

The GRF isn't mentioned, but it's quite capable of providing fire support, both direct and indirect.  Perhaps not my first pick, but I'd probably add one to the lance.

Sartris

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #16 on: 17 April 2020, 12:06:29 »
point of order: a medium lance does not have to contain all medium units. the old battleforce designations were total tonnage ranges and more recently CampOps defined a medium lance as one that is at least half mediums and no assaults. a heavy, two mediums and a light constitute a medium battle lance

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #17 on: 17 April 2020, 12:48:27 »
The Whitworth wins it for me on efficiency.  40 tons, fast enough for a firesupport platform, more than adequate close-in defense for its size, and it brings as many LRM tubes as a Dervish, Hunchback-4J, or two Valkyries?  Sign me up.




I will say, that if “firesupport” includes more than LRMs (and it should), then the Griffin deserves to be here.  Also the Rifleman and JagerMech.  And really, the JM6-A should be on this list regardless.  The Dragon/Grand Dragon probably ought to be on here as well, honestly.
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Brakiel

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #18 on: 17 April 2020, 12:58:37 »
For the typical game, I go with the Catapult-C4C1 . Short bins are a feature, not a bug. If there were 2 tons per launcher, I doubt I would be able to burn through both. Even without intentionally being rushed, the flow of combat usually ends up with people getting fairly close anyways. So lob missiles until empty, then close in for the laser array and kicks.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2020, 15:42:27 by Brakiel »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #19 on: 17 April 2020, 13:01:23 »
For the typical game, I go with the Catapult-C4. Short bins are a feature, not a bug. If there were 2 tons per launcher, I doubt I would be able to burn through both. Even without intentionally being rushed, the flow of combat usually ends up with people getting fairly close anyways. So lob missiles until empty, then close in for the laser array and kicks.
I think you’re thinking of the C1.
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Brakiel

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #20 on: 17 April 2020, 13:07:20 »
I think you’re thinking of the C1.

No, I mean C4. I typically aim for 10-12 volleys for my ammo using weapons (a bit more in eras when CASE is available). That's enough for a solid engagement if you want to spam consistently, or be chary with your shots in case you have sequential battles (in campaigns). A CPLT-C4's 1 ton per launcher is a bit short, IMO.

EDIT: Derp.
« Last Edit: 17 April 2020, 15:42:03 by Brakiel »

Minemech

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #21 on: 17 April 2020, 13:09:09 »
I will say, that if “firesupport” includes more than LRMs (and it should), then the Griffin deserves to be here.  Also the Rifleman and JagerMech.  And really, the JM6-A should be on this list regardless.  The Dragon/Grand Dragon probably ought to be on here as well, honestly.
The principle reason that I did not list the Griffin, is that it tends to be many a player's 3rd, or 4th lance member of choice. Despite being focused on long range combat, it works in a wide assortment of lances. For that reason, it will often end up in a fire lance. Players not experienced in building company formations may overestimate its role, or value to them in such a lance.

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #22 on: 17 April 2020, 13:44:15 »
No, I mean C4. I typically aim for 10-12 volleys for my ammo using weapons (a bit more in eras when CASE is available). That's enough for a solid engagement if you want to spam consistently, or be chary with your shots in case you have sequential battles (in campaigns). A CPLT-C4's 1 ton per launcher is a bit short, IMO.
The C4 has two tons per launcher.  2 LRM20s, 2 tons of ammo apiece (12 rounds/launcher), and 2 SLs.
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #23 on: 17 April 2020, 14:13:09 »
HBK-4J Swayback for me plz! Though it's practically underweight heavy 'Mech, I have found it (and other Hunchbacks/Swaybacks) to be very effective in BV balanced games. Derv, Trenchbucket, and Worthless are better mediums due to their speed and jump capabilities. TBT-5N is often paired up with TBT-5S. Something to consider if you care about fluff.
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #24 on: 17 April 2020, 14:13:17 »
CPLT-A1 is my choice, but it's not even listed, so HBK-4J.

Hunchie all the way, hands for physicals, indirect and direct weapons, two bins to load different ammos.

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #25 on: 17 April 2020, 15:07:38 »
That’s what I mean. The 1M is not a good fit for a situation where it’s going to die in one or two hits

The Locust 1M is alright for a light fire support mech. It's a waste in a medium lance.

For a light mech in a fire support lance I would way rather have something more survivable that can spot for indirect. Trying to add enough LRM tubes to matter on a light mech just doesnt add up. I have done alright with Valkyries backing heavier units, but are too slow to be of much use as a scout.

A Jenner JR-7F, would be ideal, Javelin (Maybe the 10A with a single LRM-15) or an Assassin would be ideal but now we are into light-medium weight territory. The lights role in a medium fire support lance is establishing LOS for indirect fire,scouting and potentially harassment. Period.
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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #26 on: 17 April 2020, 15:38:35 »
Which of these is your favored mech for a fire lance in a medium company? Why?
 Feel free to throw in factors such as long term costs vs battlefield effectiveness, or whatever else interests you.
 I intentionally left out some choices like the Archer. This was not to denigrate them.

When I think "fire lance in a medium company I figure we are talking about a unit that probably has 7+ medium mechs and no more than 3 heavies. Obviously with the choices given we are limited to 3025 era mechs. In a company sized force a "fire lance" does not connotate strictly "indirect fire support". But with all the LRM boats you posted clearly your line of thinking leans towards the LRM / Indirect side of the house. Also I'd be inclined to save my heavy mechs for a separate lance.

My ideal "medium fire support lance" would look something like this:

1. Centurion / Griffin / Wolverine / Shad /  :   This is your lineholder / direct fire mech / bodyguard role
2. Trebuchet 5N : Fire Support - LRM spam
3. Trebuchet 5N : Fire Support - LRM spam
4. Assassin / Jenner : Scout for indirect fire / harasser

This lance would in theory be a supplement to a heavier command / main assault element (Command lance) as well as a lighter / faster lance to scout and harass. Your fire support needs to be able to be responsive and pummel things your command lance pins in place, or quickly respond to your scout lances contact.
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Brakiel

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #27 on: 17 April 2020, 15:41:32 »
The C4 has two tons per launcher.  2 LRM20s, 2 tons of ammo apiece (12 rounds/launcher), and 2 SLs.

Well, that's egg on my face...  :D :D :D

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #28 on: 17 April 2020, 15:53:33 »
Well, that's egg on my face...  :D :D :D

Yeah I am not letting you lead me into battle.

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Re: Medium Fire Lance poll
« Reply #29 on: 17 April 2020, 16:08:14 »
Yeah I am not letting you lead me into battle.

"yeah he's fired 8 shots boys.  Means he's out!  CHARGE!"

Was that a C1 Catapult or a C4? you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
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