BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: igycrctl on 15 December 2018, 09:37:07
-
I’m a returning player. I played the IS stuff with my friends in high school. Got out just as the clans were arriving. Then I didn’t play Battletech for 30+ years. Not because of anything related to the game, just life took over. Now I’m back, but most games I see are clan invasion. I don’t think I like the clans. From a lore perspective, they don’t make sense to me. From a game perspective, they seem to have amazing ‘mechs that can do everything: running, shooting, and managing their heat well. They don’t seem to force players to make decisions: shoot or run, heat management, like the older less efficient designs do. I guess as a positive, with the super deadly weapons and the better gunnery skill the game does move more quickly.
Maybe I need to give them more time. Would love for someone to convince me that the clans are awesome. Thanks for listening. I await all the responses.
-
Standard "Its your game, play the way you like." response.
I was surprised by the introduction of the clans myself, but I think the shock was highly mitigated by the fact I was mainly collecting TROs at the time, and just saw it as new toys and tech to play with mentally, having already been primed by tro:2750.
I wasn't heavily into the lore at the time, nor did I have any favored factions so there was no real broken feelings for me once way or the other.
-
There are a few around here who avoid the clans like the plague (me among them), so even if you don't come to like them, you won't be alone. As a long time poster here once said, "BattleTech is a huge house" (I forget which one). Luciora is spot on with "play the way you like".
EDIT: I saw it in ColBosch's signature line (who's sadly no longer active), quoting nckestrel (who is still around).
-
I only dislike them as EVERYTHING they have has to be better than the Inner Sphere:
Lower Tonnage on most weapons
Lower Crit Slots on most Weapons
Better Range on most weapons
Better Damage on Most weapons
Better Double Heat Sinks across the board
All of the above leads to a Ton-for-Ton better armed/armored/heat efficient mech for the Clans compared to the inner sphere.
-
From a lore perspective, they don’t make sense to me.
It is a game about giant robots fighting space feudal wars. The entire setting does not make sense if you think about it
-
I’m actually going to be playing them again tomorrow, so I guess I don’t dislike them that much. :) My personal feeling is that I will play what others are playing, because it is better to have played than not. Just glad I’m not alone in my general distaste for the clans. I even watched the entire Battletech animated series to see if I could get into the story. I liked the show, but not the clans too much. Of course, they are the villains, and I don’t think we are supposed to like them.
-
From a lore perspective, I find all of the factions mostly ridiculous. The Jihad-era breakup of the free worlds league is really one of the only outcomes I actually buy in the whole timeline. I accept the rest because the game is fun and I’m not going to paint myself into a corner that avoids 80% of published materials after 1992. In a universe rebuild I think a lot of us would probably be like “yeah let’s not do that” but until then this is what we’ve got
Post 3050 is where the game itself actually becomes interesting for me. I have little love for the good ole days before then and without the early 90s shift I would have moved on long ago. IS tech catches up and differentiates enough by 3060 to counter the big bad clans. If anything, fighting against the clans improved my tactical awareness subatially because making bad moves will be severely punished. It’s also where I learned to use combined arms effectively since vehicles and infantry fall outside of the clan honor system and can be exploited for good advantage
Also there’s battle value balancing. The clans’ gunnery advantage becomes less appealing when they have to pay a 38% fee on top of their already more expensive machines. Playing the clans requires a bit of RP buy in. Bidding also reduces the clan advantage by intentionally holding part of your force back to prove to your brethren your prowess.
Ultimately you should play what you like to play. It’s all pointless if you’re not having fun.
-
It's far to say MechWarrior 2 played a big part of why I became a fan of the BTU and I can't imagine the game without the TimberWolf.
Also been playing allot of 3rd SW games, plenty of room for both.
-
They are ok, Given my preferences, I like the clans as antagonists, and the Nova Cats/Sprint Cats for obvious reasons, but their tech does grate on me at times, as Neon Knight mentioned above.
You might look at the Empires Aflame one shot. It proposes a universe where Kerensky got a sniper round to the head pre-Exodus, and the SLDF didn't go away. It's a rough outline on a Time of War adventure, but it is interesting.
-
I've always felt that the Clans as a theme are a "Villain of the Week" schtick that's loooooong overplayed its welcome and as a rules-aspect are munchkin magnets. So, yeah pretty much nothing but negative feelings about the Clans.
However, even as a staunch Clan-hater, I have to admit that FASA did a better job portraying a fictional society than they did with the Inner Sphere itself. The chronic questions of "why do populations have such ridiculously tiny armies" and "I get why there's such a hodge-podge of units available in the game, but why would formations be that way in-universe.. the logistics is sheer insanity" and especially "Why are sheeple willing to just let some offworld warriors fight some battle like a sporting event to decide their family's fates" are better answered by the descriptions of Clan society than by the descriptions of how things work in the Great Houses. Hell, aside from House Kurita, the Inner Sphere doesn't even have any made-up lexicon of words and phrases so that fans can talk 'in character'.
It's very much like FASA invented a second BattleTech universe and then mashed the new one into the old one.
-
I would also point out that by 3140s the IS produces some Clan lasers, and due to the fluff of the draw-down the Clans quit producing as much of their gear and so had to take in IS stuff to beef up their forces.
Plenty of timeframes to play in as someone mentioned . . . and since I have played that way, its fun to fight the Clans as they invade though its really hard to get that 'shock' impact of the unknown invaders. I also had fun at our local Con when folks moved from the grinder to one of the RP events, "You guys are space samurai and we are Mongol invaders with a dueling code. If you accept challenges we will fight as declared until its resolved." Despite the recommendation of the veteran players on their side, the rookies decided to accept some of the challenges to let the duels play out while using what was not involved in the melee on the other side of the map they were defending. Of course, we were RP'ing the Smoke Jaguars so the cocky challenges were rolled out and they were actually fair-ish fights, we fought up 1 weight class IIRC.
Part of the problem with the 3025 hate is that the Clans were new (WERE, its been over 25 years . . . ), were introduced without a easy balance mechanism, and b/c of the power creep attracted certain types of players. Those players moved on . . . for the most part, and now most of your Clan players you will find are folks who came to the game b/c of MW2 (and are Clan adherents the same reason the grognards hold to the 5 Houses) or came in through later games like MW4 and so are set for 3060 era.
If you are getting back into the game you may want to look at MegaMek, its a computer version of the table top that is shareware and lets you play people from across the globe.
TDC, citizens/residents were for the most part sheeple as described before the Napoleonic era. Since they houses are supposed to be lifted, depending on opinions, from eras prior to that point it makes some sense. Its just a lack of historical perspective.
-
TDC, citizens/residents were for the most part sheeple as described before the Napoleonic era. Since they houses are supposed to be lifted, depending on opinions, from eras prior to that point it makes some sense. Its just a lack of historical perspective.
I was just saying that FASA's efforts to flesh out Clan Society were actually better done than their efforts to do the same for the Inner Sphere. Something they invented whole is inherently more consistent than mashing together contexts from before and after invention of Westphalian sovereignty :D
-
as a dedicated clan player, most of the time it feels like a good 60% of the vocal fanbase dislikes the clans. I would probably have never gotten into the game to the depth I have without them though.
I like their technology. the clans, and the things innovated by the inner sphere in response to the arrival of the clans make games go faster. I have more fun and get more options by way of their inclusion. it is markedly not the same game as one plays in 3025, and whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is personal opinion. It's not even a munchkin thing really, I don't mind if everyone has access to the technology. I think the inner sphere should have been replicating invasion era clantech by the start of the jihad really.
I like warrior cultures. the clans are bands of Warriors and not Soldiers, and I find it far more enjoyable to play an exceptional warrior character, out for personal strength and glory as much as the success of his tribe, than I do an unremarkable soldier, whose strength is entirely a function of the whole. I also like the "High Tech, High Skilled, Highly Outnumbered" aspect of the clans. I like it in the clans, I like it in other media too. the clans have nothing on most gundam shows' tech/numbers gap, for example.
I like that the Clans have an unusual culture, that their norms and values are rearranged by the experiment that bore them. The clan system being what it is, means an individual warrior need not fear death so much, knowing that his legacy continuing is not wholly dependent on his survival. I love their system of Trials, it's a great way to facilitate small unit actions without stunting the growth of the world around them. You're fighting five on five because that's all the objective in question is worth, not because five mechs is all you could get ahold of.
Battletech is also a game about fighting. Warrior Cultures and their obsession with points of honor and conduct are WONDERFUL for providing excuses to fight, and with the Trials in the clans, you are never lacking for a reason to have a battle. You are having this duel because of this unforgivable slight to your honor. or to refuse the outcome of a political decision, or for possession of that mcguffin over there. You can constantly fight, but do not have to do so at the fever pitch of all-out-war.
Really, there's very little functional difference between the way of the clans and the way of the succession wars when you really look at it. You say objective raid, I say trial of possession. You say retalliation strike, I say trial of grievance. You might find the trappings a little goofy if you're not into them the way I am, but they're tracing the same path.
I like the clan rank system, it's very straightforward.
I like the clan organizational systems. With the different definitions of what constitutes a "Point" in a star, you can do some very interesting things in playing around with unit composition. If by the fluff I'm going to be forced to adopt combined arms, I may as well get something out of that.
-
The problem is CLAN tech is (rules wise) Different from IS Tech. They just can't (without special rules) be used on opposing tech chassis. In other words, an existing Atlas AS7-D cannot just take it's IS AC20 and swap it out for the Clan tech AC20, because "your filbert flange won't mesh with their grapple grommets". All Clan tech is Proprietary :(
Below are a couple of examples of CLAN superiority
IS ER Large Laser
Heat: 12
Damage: 8
Short: 1-7
Med: 8-14
Long: 15-19
Tons: 5
Slots: 2
CLAN ER Large Laser
Heat: 12 same
Damage: 10 2 better
Short: 1-8 1 better
Med: 9-15 1 better
Long: 16-25 6 better
Tons: 4 -1 ton
Slots: 1 -1 slot
So the CLAN ER Large is better than the IS on Damage, Range, Tonnage and Slots. But HEY! What is saves on weight it can make up for on a double heat sink, so, win-win!
Or one of the BIGGEST offenders
INNER SPHERE Large Pulse Laser
Heat: 10
Damage: 9
Short: 1-3
Med: 4-7
Long: 8-10
Tons: 7
Slots: 2
CLAN Large Pulse Laser
Heat: 10 same
Damage: 10 +2 damage
Short: 1-6 x2 IS range
Med: 7-14 surpasses IS long range
Long: 15-20 x2 IS long range
Tons: 6 1 ton light
Slots: 2 same
So again, every aspect is better than IS! Stay outside IS long range and you are effectively at medium range for the Clan weapon, and because it's a Pulse, you are effectively looking at Short range To Hit numbers thanx to the -2 modifier for Pulse Weapons.
I honestly think if the game moves past 3150, there needs to be a 'reboot' of sorts and just go through the weapon charts and say...OK we took the 'best weapons' from both Tech Bases and they are now the default going forward. Both IS and Clan have access to them.
It's why in the real world, no-one wages ware with muskets and flint-lockes any more ;)
-
Really, there's very little functional difference between the way of the clans and the way of the succession wars when you really look at it. You say objective raid, I say trial of possession. You say retalliation strike, I say trial of grievance. You might find the trappings a little goofy if you're not into them the way I am, but they're tracing the same path.
This is another dimension of what I was saying FASA did better with the Clans than with the Inner Sphere.
Give things goofy made up names... you don't get (as prone to being) stuck extrapolating real-world military science into the fictional game. How much grief has been, in the entirety of BattleTech fandom, trying to rationalize the logic in a lance or company sized Recon Raid across interstellar space? And c'mon, the entire (pre-Clan) setting is basically predicated on such military actions. However hard (or impossible) it is to explain that logic grounded in real-life military science, the Clans doing the exact same thing makes sense because "reasons". They're crazy to begin with. They're too proud to spy, so obviously they just send warriors to go violently look at things. And what they're looking at isn't an entire planet anyway; it'd just be a highly finite enclave on that planet. Etc.
-
Um . . . the only thing that prevents a Clan weapon from being mounted on a battlemech is the normal customization rolls with maybe a difficulty modifier. Its not done except in old L3 rules b/c its mixed tech which can get more abusive but that is not something you are worrying about for campaign play. But its along the same lines as taking that old AC/20 and replacing it with a LB-20X- still going to have those difficulty rolls. Except for Omni-mechs, IIRC the Dragon Roars fluff they came up with those configurations b/c the universal nature of Omnipods made it easy to reconfigure the IS Omnis if you captured enough Clan weapons.
By 3130s, a lot of the chassis are mixed tech (Wulfen uses CC developed armor for example) and you do have a few cases where the IS weapon is superior- for instance I prefer Plasma Rifles over Plasma Cannon b/c I want to be able to damage that mech besides just heating it. Snub PPCs have the longest short range for more than 2 damage, wresting that mark away from the Clan ERLL.
And the Clans pay in BV for the superior tech- especially since most IS players I have run across are quite happy to play in a phone booth of 2x2. Without more room, the more numerous (with correspondingly more armor to shoot through) IS will be able to pin the Clan player against the edge. With BV balance, the Clans are not a 'I Win' button, more like 'You Lose' due to the way games are normally set up.
They may not take muskets but folks do and can take M1s against modern semi-automatic rifles. Clan vs IS dynamic has often been quantity vs quality- as the future of the 80s, it always strikes me as NATO vs Pact.
-
So, as I said, 'special rules' to allow mixed tech.
From the TECH MANUAL page 19, TECHNOLOGY BASE
The technology base (tech base) of a given unit determines
its access to components and its general level of
sophistication. Most units in standard rules (as presented in
Total Warfare) game play fall into two broad technological
categories: Clan and Inner Sphere. Clan technology is more
advanced, lighter, more powerful and generally more compact
than Inner Sphere technology. The broader industrial
capacity of the Inner Sphere and Periphery, however, means
that such equipment is generally more varied, less expensive
and easier to obtain and maintain.
Equipment and components are generally assigned a Clan
or Inner Sphere technology base in the core construction rules,
as well as in the Equipment section (starting on p. 200) and the
Equipment Tables (starting on p. 341). Units built with a Clan
Technology Base may only use equipment and components
available to the Clans, while units built with an Inner Sphere
Technology Base may only use equipment and components
available to the Inner Sphere.
-
Yeah . . . 'Core' construction rules which means 3050/3060 setting and explicitly for OOC use. You were talking about modifying a existing chassis as a 1 off, which in the customization rules is not too much harder than the swap I mentioned- if you have the parts. You are citing a OOC/Meta/rules complaint from 3050s/60s (fluff I can find in TM says '67) and trying to address it to 'in universe' concerns when its done OOC for simplification based on the time frame. Also IIRC there are the prototype & experimental designs from that era (Invasion & Civil War) that are mixed tech- designed and built in universe that way, but for OOC rules purposes are considered advanced (thus optional) tech.
A unit built/designed for 3120 does not have that segregated tech base problem since Clan, IS or Mixed are all equal options at that time frame
-
Which is all still optional rules. That entire chapter in STRATEGIC OPERATIONS is optional rules.
And show me ONE person who utilizes those rules to routinely swap out CLAN tech for their Inner Sphere counterparts ;)
-
Pendantic arguing about the rules makes every thread better
-
Pendantic arguing about the rules makes every thread better
It does, doesn't it ;)
-
TPTB used IS Stealth Armor on the Wulfen as cited.
You are swinging back & forth between customization and construction rules- they are two different things and neither is a BTU setting. Customization rules are also optional, and if you are not using them then you are going to replace that AC/20 with another AC/20. But Joe Bob Tech is not going to walk over to his mechwarrior and tell him the shiny new Clan UAC/20 they pulled off a wrecked Stormcrow cannot be put on his Atlas b/c only a bog standard AC/20 can be put in that space because rules. He will tell him its going to take longer, be harder, and might cause damage to the cannon or the mech if they screw up adapting it into the chassis.
MMLs for SRMs, Plasma Rifle for Plasma Cannon as already mentioned
And for 3130s as mentioned, the Wulfen and Clan laser armed Black Knights are considered 'normal' units w/o special rules since the 'Advanced' rules are default for that timeframe.
-
Ive always liked the Clans, but I know many people don't. I think many of the clan rules and tactics make the superior tech on a even footing. I don't know of a Battletech with out the Clans. For a while the Word of Blake were getting all the new tech hell even changed a huge part of the rules for them. Just as much as the clans.
-
Equipment Compatability rules always read to me like someone who thinks of mechs as being like computers in the 90s, and I doubt they were written by someone who actually wrenches on shit or wires it up for a living.
There's nothing stopping someone from dropping a Chevy engine into a Ford Chassis, or using a Bosch sensor with a DMP Security system. Heck, said DMP security system can happily use their main competitor's wireless sensors because they manufacture a wireless receiver designed to do exactly that. I can mount a picatinny rail on a SKS and use modern gun accessories on a rifle from the end of world war II. Analog cameras with a digital recorder? I can offer a very nice 4, 8 or 16 channel converter. Wherever there's a mismatch in technologies, you'll usually find something to span that gap.
It would take all of no time flat for someone to start manufacturing intermediary controllers to handle the weapon's databus, power converters to step down voltage/amperage issues, connectors to mate IS harnesses and cooling lines to clan recievers.
Wrong flange? weld the right one in. Can't join lego bricks to duplo blocks? Get me some sandpaper and epoxy. Software incompatability? Bridges and Emulators.
"Tech Base" is a silly game mechanic at this scale. It's not like we have Faction A using Nanobots, Faction B using Enchanted Meat, and Faction C using Steampunk.
-
I only dislike them as EVERYTHING they have has to be better than the Inner Sphere:
Lower Tonnage on most weapons
Lower Crit Slots on most Weapons
Better Range on most weapons
Better Damage on Most weapons
Better Double Heat Sinks across the board
All of the above leads to a Ton-for-Ton better armed/armored/heat efficient mech for the Clans compared to the inner sphere.
This. I find it incredibly irritating that somehow they manage to still produce these things so well, *without* drawbacks in any way.
-
Responding to the OP, I find the Clans fine lorewise. The SLDF disappearing was a major point of the setting since the beginning, IIRC, so having them return makes perfect sense. Gameplay wise, I am a bit disgruntled with how overtuned their weapons are. With their starting advantages in 3050, they don't really have any way to improve the way that the IS has over the decades without being even more broken. I mean, just look at the ERML. The ERML is better being a Large Laser than the actual Large Laser aside from an irrelevant decrease in damage (neither 7 nor 8 damage cross any important breakpoints). A 1 ton laser being better in nearly every category than a weapon 5 times its tonnage is just insane. There's no way to evolve from that.
Snub PPCs have the longest short range for more than 2 damage, wresting that mark away from the Clan ERLL.
Eh, Snubbies are good for the techbase, but its competition on the Clan side isn't the ERLL, it's the LPL. Construction-wise they're effectively identical, but the LPL is obviously so much more better.
-
I really dislike "The Clans" as originally introduced - overpowered tech, a thin cultural veneer laid over the basest might makes right power structure, an utterly implausible social structure, & a military advance by brute force utterly devoid of guile. There rivalries seemed more meaningless than those of professional sports teams, & their equipment attracted the worst power gamers.
Now though? I'm much more mellow. Despite my distaste for how they began, I've found the way various Clans have been forced to adapt to life in the Inner Sphere & evolve & integrate culturally relatively interesting. That War of Reaving seemed like the inevitable end game of Clan culture albeit delayed by around a century didn't hurt either. I still dislike their tech-base. Not because it is inherently better than Inner Sphere tech - technological advancements are inevitable, & the Inner Sphere has begun to catch up as of the 3140s - but because nearly all of its advancements are offensive in nature, which I feel damages the game experience by minimizing the benefits gained by defensive movement & positioning & maximizing the benefits of rushing to range & praying for lucky hits. In a Clantech engagement, terrain & positioning matter much less than just putting as many guns on target as possible & praying for a headcap or TAC. That there are a handful of Clantech weapons that are significantly better than all the others doesn't really endear me to their equipment either. IS options are just so much more varied & interesting.
-
The thing that I dislike the most is not he clans (that I just find laughable) but double heat sinks. And thanks thot reintroduced by the helm memory core.
That thing breaks the whole setting of "heat matters". This was a cornerstone of differenciation between BT and other Mecha universes. Now it is just a generic Mecha universe like the other dozens of Mecha settings.
In any case the setting seems to be designed as to only allow itself to advance through melodrama that breaks everything. Clans. Then Blake. Then the next tantrum of the Fortress. All drama queens. A more organic setting that evolves without breaking itself would be welcome for a change. This is why I prefer the periphery: the supporting cast works much more consistently than the main actors.
-
Good riddance. Another annoying micromanaging aspect in a game full of them
In any case the setting seems to be designed as to only allow itself to advance through melodrama that breaks everything. Clans. Then Blake. Then the next tantrum of the Fortress. All drama queens. A more organic setting that evolves without breaking itself would be welcome for a change. This is why I prefer the periphery: the supporting cast works much more consistently than the main actors.
Sounds like world history 1870-1950 to me. Ymmv
-
Good riddance. Another annoying micromanaging aspect in a game full of them
I like the heat rules, but I like them better with double heat sinks. Damage output on single heat sink designs is just so paltry that it drastically slows game resolution without meaningfully changing game outcomes. I can design a 'Mech around overheating whether or not I use single heat sinks, & with both I still end up paying in penalties later on for damage up front, but when players play conservatively with their heat - and most of the players I've met do - it takes players twice as many turns to chew through the same amount of armor with no appreciable difference in whether or not the 'Mech is destroyed. Essentially, double heat sinks allow you to halve the number of turns of play without changing how your tactics on the map will decide victory. Having to spend an additional turn firing only two medium lasers while you cool down doesn't really add to the overall game experience, it just detracts from it.
-
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.
-
This. I find it incredibly irritating that somehow they manage to still produce these things so well, *without* drawbacks in any way.
🤨
Clantech is essentially buffed 3025 tech. As a tech base it largely missed out on the revolution caused by supporting tech like C3 or Semi Guided LRMs. Compared to even 3060 tech Clantech is a club in a world of rapiers.
-
I hate the clans. They're the worst.
-
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.
Yeah, I can see that. I see that mostly as a fault in the Ultra AC & special ammo rules rather than DHS themselves, though.
-
Clan tech was a catch-22.
If they had introduced the Clans with gear no better than what the IS had, they would make no sense because they'd have to stagnate while the IS had been going backward for 300 years.
Introduce the Clans with a 300-year tech advantage, battles would be as one-sided as the Boxer Rebellion.
As it is, giving the Clans tech equal to 100 years over the height of the Star League was probably the least insane compromise, but it required handing Clan scientists the idiot ball for 200 years (a situation that had to be "patched" decades later by trotting out the Society).
I enjoy the hell out of the Clans as a roleplaying setting. Their weird tribal culture, the honor system, the strange vocabulary, all of it. They're so fundamentally alien, yet as human as can be. Anyone who manages to boil all that down to a reductive "might makes right" doesn't grasp how honor works--or only has experience dealing with Clan Wolf.
And then you consider the intersection of those values with invading the Inner Sphere, which has completely different cultural values....it's beautiful. It's like the Aztecs invading Europe, only they're the ones with the guns.
Personally, I think the Helm core and subsequent Inner Sphere tech renaissance was a mistake. The scrappy, postapocalyptic Mad Max feel of the LosTech era is what makes the setting interesting. Without it, it's just another generic high-tech space opera universe which inexplicably ties its own hands (vanishing WarShips) to facilitate largely pointless ground battles. I rapidly lose interest in the timeline as it progresses past 3060.
Rather than building the Inner Sphere up to match the Clans, the writers should have gradually dragged the Clans down to the IS level through attrition and made them play in the mud.
Dark Age could have been great if it hadn't been so mismanaged. It was supposed to be a return to the Mad Max days but what we got was Beyond Thunderdome. With 'Mechs walking around in fetishwear (https://52f4e29a8321344e30ae-0f55c9129972ac85d6b1f4e703468e6b.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/products/pictures/106207.jpg) and combine harvesters being used as battlefield weapons it degraded into self-parody. It didn't help that it all happened during the demise of FASA and on the heels of a Jihad storyline that made no sense whatsoever.
-
Yeah, I can see that. I see that mostly as a fault in the Ultra AC & special ammo rules rather than DHS themselves, though.
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.
IMO the real problem is the heat scale. The mechanics of the heat scale don't match the way overheating is portrayed in the fiction. In the fiction, running your 'Mech to the redline and riding the heat curve is how you win. On the table, playing like that just makes you miss all your shots and shut down or explode.
As it has stood since BattleDroids, the heat scale aggressively punishes any kind of risk-taking and encourages players to run their 'Mechs very conservatively by hobbling their firepower--which just stretches out a game that already takes forever to resolve because the odds of successfully dealing damage are so poor. As designed, the heat scale also makes DHS massively overpowered because they flat-out double the amount of weaponry you can fire, usually with a minimal or nonexistent construction cost penalty. And DHS working this way in turn makes energy weapons overpowered, by removing their only real drawback.
-
I think that if the universe only had SHS, then the Clan Mechs would be relative less powerful.
Sure their tech is great and in-universe a logical development, but their energy weapons are also very hot...
And there is another matter.... Clan designs generally look better then InnerSphere designs, and looks also generate fans.
-
Clan tech was a catch-22.
If they had introduced the Clans with gear no better than what the IS had, they would make no sense because they'd have to stagnate while the IS had been going backward for 300 years.
They should have stagnated if not declined worse than the IS given their societal structure.
Why should a society that values meatheads over scientists make more scientific progress than a larger society that worships technology and recruits the brightest minds from a vastly larger population and was unaffected by the succession wars or Holy Shroud? I speak, of course, of Earth.
-
They should have stagnated if not declined worse than the IS given their societal structure.
Why should a society that values meatheads over scientists make more scientific progress than a larger society that worships technology and recruits the brightest minds from a vastly larger population and was unaffected by the succession wars or Holy Shroud? I speak, of course, of Earth.
The Clans did stagnate, almost all of their advancements were made very early and were based upon SLDF research data and scientists (that the Earth didn't have anymore).
As for Earth, they weren't really motivated, nor did they have the resources of the old SL.
-
a society that values meatheads over scientists
This is a very bad misreading of how Clan society works and also a common misconception.
A trueborn warrior has to be a Nietzschean übermensch in every sense. The castes are hierarchical, yes, but that in turn means a warrior has to be strong enough to be a laborer, smart enough to be a scientist, cunning enough to be a merchant, skilled enough to be a technician, and deadly enough to be a warrior. Anyone who fails this at any level washes out into a lower caste. "Meatheads" don't make it into the warrior caste, they wash out and become laborers. Dumb but tough isn't enough to cut it.
The freeborn populations have breeding programs too (conducted the old-fashioned way through arranged marriages), and a similar level of rigor in job selection, they just don't get the resources that are dumped into the warrior gene selection and breeding program (except for what the Society was tinkering with).
Now this does create a problem of a "brain drain" of the best and brightest from warrior sibkos passing over the scientist caste because they qualified for a better job, but I'd argue it's no worse than the brain drain effect Wall Street and law schools impose on science in our society.
Where the Clans run into a problem is their systemic gerontophobia. It's a society that is by-and-large run by people under 30, with a handful of "old-timers" kept around because of exceptional ability. Anyone who has seen a college dorm knows this is a disastrously bad way to run a society, but it also makes the Clans a lot of fun. It's like a vapid reality show, but with lots of guns.
There are areas where Clan science should obviously have stagnated through lack of resources, but weapons development is not one of them.
ComStar, on the other hand is a fantastic example of shooting oneself in the foot. They literally worship technology, at least in the post-Toyamist era through to the WoB schism. Everything the Star League came up with is holy to them. Technical manuals are actually read with reverence like they were scripture. ComStar's entire thing was believing that the people of the Star League were somehow enlightened and they were carrying out a sacred duty of keeping the flame alive until the Second Coming Star League returned.
You don't go rewriting your holy books because you think they could be improved, that's called heresy and people fight (very silly, but no less brutal) wars over it. ROM had a whole division dedicated to enforcing correct thought among the faithful.
Developing new technology would mean acknowledging the old technology had room for improvement, which means it isn't perfect, which means it isn't holy, which means--Oh, crap (https://redeeminggod.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/burn-at-stake.jpg).
This is one of my biggest gripes about the WoB jihad, all that über-tech the Master pulled out of his ass should have been considered heresy and punished as such. It doesn't comport with what was established about old ComStar or the WoB in the several decades of prior lore.
-
Maybe I need to give them more time. Would love for someone to convince me that the clans are awesome. Thanks for listening. I await all the responses.
I'm definitely in the "I loathe the Clans with a passion" camp, mainly because I find them boring in the extreme as characters. But, since "it's your game", I'd say make your own campaign however you like it. We had a guy out here in the Detroit who for years ran his own campaign where the Clans never existed and he and his players enjoyed it. You've essentially got tons of resource material that runs from the late 2000's to 3050 and you can pick up the game universe at any point, diverge from the main "canon" universe, and advance the timeline of your personal game universe however you choose. And if you find Clan tech that you like, introduce it into your campaign setting as Inner Sphere technological advances. Maybe a MegaCorp figured out how to make "Clan" ER PPCs as the logical progression of the Star League ER PPC found described in the Helm Memory Core. And if you look at the books, if you want the added granularity, there are rules for prototype ER PPCs (for example). The BattleTech Universe, is really your oyster if you want it to be.
And as you catch up on the source material, don't stop at the Clans. If you don't like the Feddies and want to run a game where they were devoured by the Capellans, Taurians, and Dracs during the Succession Wars? Do it! Hate the Star League and want to see them lose the Reunification Wars to the Periphery? Run a campaign in a universe where that happened. There are no BattleTech gestapo that are going to force you to run a home campaign exactly to the specs of what takes place in BattleTech canon. ;)
However, before you launch into your own campaign, may I suggest the following:
On the Catalyst Game Labs website, they have a free PDF called "Empires Aflame". It's basically a 55 page adventure in a parallel universe where the Star League Defense Force never left the Inner Sphere -- hence, the Clans and ComStar were never founded.
https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/battletech-adventures-empires-aflame-pdf
The adventure is interesting enough, however, where the book really shines is on pages 21 thru 48 where the GM Section details out this really cool look into a "what if" universe that could provide you with lots of hooks for campaigning using the full set of BattleTech products (Total War, Alpha Strike, Strategic Ops, Campaign Ops, etc.).
Again, it's totally FREE!! So if, like me, you think that the Clans are not worth playing, download this free resource and go to town. It's YOUR game, play it however you like and have fun. :thumbsup:
Oh, and welcome back! :)
-
Did anyone mention the Ultra Auto Cannon 20 yet? Most dakka dakka for your c-bill or kerensky.
Ultra autocannons in general are one of the great weapon advances the Clans utilize. But the U A/C 20 was and is over the top.
More bang than you can shake a Stick 2C at... Until the Spheroids invented the rotary auto cannon, that is. So I don't see the arguments against the clans as being spot-on. There's some spheroid tech that readily surpases clan tech.
It's all in what you as a gamer like. Personally I love the lore, so there's where my take comes from. I more or less liked the clans before TRO 3050 was published, because I was one of the few who pondered all the hints and clues about Kerensky's Exodus in the original Periphery book.
-
Personally, I think the Helm core and subsequent Inner Sphere tech renaissance was a mistake. The scrappy, postapocalyptic Mad Max feel of the LosTech era is what makes the setting interesting. Without it, it's just another generic high-tech space opera universe which inexplicably ties its own hands (vanishing WarShips) to facilitate largely pointless ground battles. I rapidly lose interest in the timeline as it progresses past 3060.
Without advancing tech Battletech would have been a trivia question.
This isn't a miniature company like 40K. It sells fluff. And the fluff that sells is TROs. Advancing tech adds the variety that makes new TRO sales possible.
That ignores that 3025 play is boring. Some meaningless fire at long range. Close and kick wildly at each other. Then you ammo explodes.
-
Without advancing tech Battletech would have been a trivia question.
This isn't a miniature company like 40K. It sells fluff. And the fluff that sells is TROs. Advancing tech adds the variety that makes new TRO sales possible.
That ignores that 3025 play is boring. Some meaningless fire at long range. Close and kick wildly at each other. Then you ammo explodes.
I didn't say "no new tech" I said "no tech renaissance". Allowing the IS to rebuild its society and have high tech everywhere was the mistake.
The high tech stuff doesn't make the game any more fun, it just makes everything die a lot quicker. Or it would, if you weren't constantly pausing play to look up the rules for the new equipment.
-
I enjoy the hell out of the Clans as a roleplaying setting. Their weird tribal culture, the honor system, the strange vocabulary, all of it. They're so fundamentally alien, yet as human as can be. Anyone who manages to boil all that down to a reductive "might makes right" doesn't grasp how honor works--or only has experience dealing with Clan Wolf.
Clan fan via MW2 here.
I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".
-
I care very little about the rules, but I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thinks the Clans have overstayed their welcome in terms of plot. I might have much preferred the Clans to be, well, like the Word of Blake: villain of the week turn up, they have overpowered tech, there are lots of desperate battles, eventually the Inner Sphere gets its act together and defeats them, and that's the end of it.
I don't mind people playing or enjoying the Clans, just as I don't mind people playing or enjoying Blakists, but I do feel like making the Clans a permanent fixture of the setting was a mistake. Ultimately I'm here for the neofeudal space drama with occasional giant stompy robots for flavour - I neither want nor need the Space Mongols shoehorned into everything.
(To be clear, Space Mongols is not in itself a bad thing. Not when they're fighting Space Samurai, Space Germans, Space Knights, and Space Communists. But the Clans do have a very different cultural flavour to the feudal stylings of the great houses, and frankly it's a flavour I'd rather keep separate.)
-
Clan fan via MW2 here.
I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".
Ditto. For me, without the Clans Battletech would lose a lot of its uniqueness as a setting and instead become something like just another Dune-knockoff that happens to have giant robots.
The adolescent-me playing Mechwarrior 2 and then reading novels found the Clans a fascinating and in some ways laudable culture. Twenty years later that viewpoint's only been tempered, not lost. It's a bit of a mystery to me as well why the Clans are considered 'alien' and 'evil' but not the Combine or Capellans who also have caste-based societies and totalitarian regimes. The Clan system - of single combat and limited warfare deliberately designed to minimize loss of civilian life - certainly might appeal to Succession War-era Spheroids who might get nuked or blown up simply because they happened to live near some useful target or other.
As to game balance and rules, true, the Clans can come across as overpowered. Tactics-wise, consider it a real challenge, kind of like playing on 'Hard' difficulty. Roleplay-wise, now you know how your poor Spheroid soldiers feel ;D
-
Ditto. For me, without the Clans Battletech would lose a lot of its uniqueness as a setting and instead become something like just another Dune-knockoff that happens to have giant robots.
The adolescent-me playing Mechwarrior 2 and then reading novels found the Clans a fascinating and in some ways laudable culture. Twenty years later that viewpoint's only been tempered, not lost. It's a bit of a mystery to me as well why the Clans are considered 'alien' and 'evil' but not the Combine or Capellans who also have caste-based societies and totalitarian regimes. The Clan system - of single combat and limited warfare deliberately designed to minimize loss of civilian life - certainly might appeal to Succession War-era Spheroids who might get nuked or blown up simply because they happened to live near some useful target or other.
For me, based on the background of their society, I dislike the Clans on purely RP reasons and find them to be an abomination. Why? Because all of the Inner Sphere societies, even if totalitarian or caste based, at least pays lip service to the idea that there is more to human life than purely war, and that even in a militarized feudal society, there is still a civilian government that nominally still holds authority. Sun-tzu Liao demonstrated for example by not being particularly good in Mech but a competent ruler. By contrast, the Clans elevate war to be the purpose of human existence, as the ends rather than the means, to the point where their laws are effectively might makes right. Society becomes subordinate to the military.
I also find the Clans worship of youth and denigration of age to be distasteful. Someone who has lived a full life should be respected, not treated as past their expiry date and better off dead asap.
-
Never really liked the Clans myself. Just didn't seem to fit in, and as mentioned earlier it seemed like it was two different Battletech universes smashed together. I suppose if you just play a strictly Clan game, staying in the Clan worlds there might be something to that. Never tried it though.
I think the best description I've seen of the Clans smashing with the Inner Sphere was a fan fiction, called Seven, done by a Valles -
“So, let me get this straight. You claim to follow the ideals of the Star League by subjugating every civil authority under a completely alien warrior caste that exists in a perpetual state of rivalry and ritual bloodletting and whose highest ‘honor’ is a tournament of death duels for the privilege of knowing that a clone batch will use your genes to become still more accomplished at bringing pain? At murdering people who have their own friends, loves, and dreams?”
“And when you decide to rampage through the Inner Sphere like a pack of pre-space Mongols, you have the unmitigated gall to not only call us barbarians, but to expect me to sign on with your little murder-party, abandoning my family and my loyalties, because I lost one fight?
Probably the biggest reason I don't like the Clans though is Kerensky and the fact that he bailed out. And why I liked the "Empires Aflame" AU
-
Plot wise I'm fine with clans. Their tech on the other hand is ridiculous. I get how it happened. Almost every time you see a war game add a whole new faction they're over powered. The developers just get too excited creating new toys. Thing is that pretty much every war game out there eventually releases a new edition which fixes balance issues.
CBT has tried instead to balance things out by giving the IS new toys. This has worked to some degree(I do love me some MMLs!), but not entirely. This approach would have worked better if the clans had some special toys that made them more powerful, but that's not the case. The clans core game weapons are all better, PPC, lasers, LRMS, SRMs, etc, and that's on top of better engines and heat sinks. I don't care how finely crafted your bronze sword and padded armor is, my steel hammer and plate armor is going to come out on top.
My take on how clan tech should have been handled.
- Longer ranges but also longer min ranges. Clanners abhor melee combat in mechs. Why would they waste time developing tech that lets them get in closer? Obviously, this wouldn't apply to lasers, but it could totally apply to SRMs.
- More powerful -OR- long range lasers, not both. In either case, the heat should be increased accordingly. Actually, a gimmick that let them sacrifice power for more range would have been kinda cool too.
- Unique equipment. Nothing pops into my head right now for this one, unique stuff is always better than more powerful when introducing a new faction.
-
I care very little about the rules, but I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thinks the Clans have overstayed their welcome in terms of plot. I might have much preferred the Clans to be, well, like the Word of Blake: villain of the week turn up, they have overpowered tech, there are lots of desperate battles, eventually the Inner Sphere gets its act together and defeats them, and that's the end of it.
I don't mind people playing or enjoying the Clans, just as I don't mind people playing or enjoying Blakists, but I do feel like making the Clans a permanent fixture of the setting was a mistake. Ultimately I'm here for the neofeudal space drama with occasional giant stompy robots for flavour - I neither want nor need the Space Mongols shoehorned into everything.
(To be clear, Space Mongols is not in itself a bad thing. Not when they're fighting Space Samurai, Space Germans, Space Knights, and Space Communists. But the Clans do have a very different cultural flavour to the feudal stylings of the great houses, and frankly it's a flavour I'd rather keep separate.)
But the Mongols/Huns/Migrating Nomads of very different cultural flavour crashing into an established feudal society IS part of feudal flavour, helped giving birth to it via the "Barbarians" taking over the Roman Empire even.
Also, unlike in the West here in Eastern Europe the history with the Mongols is a lot less transient, with the Empire and it's regional successor the Golden Horde ruling the area with a lot of influence on neighbors for nearly two centuries before their own infighting and the invading Timurids spelled their doom, which is why I don't see the Clans surviving this long as anything unusual.
-
Clan fan via MW2 here.
I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".
Yeah, it really isn't any more ridiculous than some of the things in IS lore. Like the book where the GDL's Davion landhold gets attacked and everyone important insists that the troops won't follow anyone but Cadet Carlyle because he is Grayson's son.
-
For me, based on the background of their society, I dislike the Clans on purely RP reasons and find them to be an abomination. Why? Because all of the Inner Sphere societies, even if totalitarian or caste based, at least pays lip service to the idea that there is more to human life than purely war, and that even in a militarized feudal society, there is still a civilian government that nominally still holds authority.
Look at it another way: The Clans do what everybody else in BT does, but they don't lie to you about it.
This is a setting where there are no good factions, only a few (mostly) good characters. All the white hats are just black hats with good PR.
-
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly accepts
the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;)
-
I like the IS Neo-Feudalism, and I like the Clan's Caste system (Class Based is just another way to decribe Feudalism, Upper Class Rules over Lower Class, Caste is Warrior Caste, Religious Caste, Merchant Caste, etc.).
It's the huge Tech Disparity that is way out of whack that bothers me.
-
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly excepts the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;)
Not everyone.
I realized it was ridiculous from the get-go -- well, sort of. My intro to the franchise was Mechwarrior 2 the computer game and the books Bloodname and I am Jade Falcon for story fiction, so I thought the Clans were the good guys. It was years before I realized the IS was the bigger, more important part of the setting but the moment I heard about barons and dukes in space, it raised an eyebrow. Then I got the background that the Great Houses had been around for hundreds of years and I simply willfully chose to ignore how ridiculous that is.
-
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly accepts
the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;)
The first absurdity one is taught can be presented as the truth
-
I was half joking guys. Every faction is messed up in their own way which is why the IS is in constant war.
It's too early for me to take any of this seriously.
-
Fake space empires are S E R I O U S B U S I N E S S
-
It not the Clan society I dislike, though that is some of it. It is them being able to turn their honour on and off. You ether have it or you don't. Then there is the genocidal, sociopathic idiocy.
I played a scenario called Bloodright. Basically you were a clan player hunting down descendents from the Wolverine families that did not even go on the exodus. It was this that soured me on the Clans as a whole.
When the Clans first came out, I read the novels and loved the Wolves, and still like them as well as the Wolves in exile, Hell's Horses, Nova Cats, and Wolverines, I suppose they are not clan anymore.
As has been said all the factions in BT are shades of gray. Mostly I use them as OPFOR.
-
For me, based on the background of their society, I dislike the Clans on purely RP reasons and find them to be an abomination. Why? Because all of the Inner Sphere societies, even if totalitarian or caste based, at least pays lip service to the idea that there is more to human life than purely war, and that even in a militarized feudal society, there is still a civilian government that nominally still holds authority. Sun-tzu Liao demonstrated for example by not being particularly good in Mech but a competent ruler. By contrast, the Clans elevate war to be the purpose of human existence, as the ends rather than the means, to the point where their laws are effectively might makes right. Society becomes subordinate to the military.
I also find the Clans worship of youth and denigration of age to be distasteful. Someone who has lived a full life should be respected, not treated as past their expiry date and better off dead asap.
Well, this isn't entirely true. It's buried really deep and the clans themselves have mostly forgotten it, but in a way they both venerate war as you say, but also protect civilian life better than any of the houses.
We get this impression of the clans because the Warrior Caste is our primary interface with them, and because they really rather run the show in the clans. But the concept, at the beginning, had something worthwhile in it there. Figuring that there was no way to do away with armed conflict entirely they aimed to divorce civilians ("lower castes") from war entirely, by literally manufacturing people to do war for them and re-framing conflict into a series of orderly rituals instead of all-out-war.
If you're manufacturing a caste of people whose entire purpose is to fight so that others do not have to, then you're going to have to turn a few things on their head. If you can divorce a warrior's ability to procreate from their need to survive, as the eugenics program and bloodname system do, then you make it easier for that warrior to fight in battle. They do not have to preserve their life in order to perpetuate their legacy, they can resolutely accept the reality of death in battle. Stigmatizing age, in addition to coming from their belief that each generation of warriors is an improvement over the last, encourages boldness in battle. Is it a sound position to hold? Not really, but I can see where it comes from.
I'll be really interested to see what things are like in the Third League, with a Star League centered on a Clan Hegemony, if that is the way we're going. It looks for all the world like a Wolf absorbtion of the Republic may be coming, and we might see a more well-rounded implementation of the clan way if that is the case, a faction that is Clan militarily, but is different on the civilian side.
I also think that much of the austere and authoritarian aspects of the clans come from what crapsack worlds the clan homeworlds are. They had to scrape by on some less than accomodating planets, far from any sort of real support, and this necessitated some drastic measures and stark discipline to ensure survival. To maintain the same standard in the bounty of the inner sphere is infeasible and unnecessary.
-
What bothers me most about the Clans is that there has not been a real reckoning of the Clan way of life with reality. The Wars of Reaving touched upon this idea, but went the opposite way with a more conservative tack. What I essentially mean is this: once you get beyond the Elemental phenotype, how much better are Clan warriors than Inner Sphere warriors? You have a society that venerates the warrior caste and the mechwarrior in specific. But look at the reality.
1. Genetic engineering is only going to push humanity so far until examples are no longer human: as in they cannot produce viable offspring with other. The Clans have probably removed most if not all congenital diseases through their genetics programs, but things like reactions are governed by the speed of nerve impulses. Billions of years of evolution have already made nerves go just about as fast as they can. As such, you can't have reactions faster than that unless you somehow rewire the nervous system to shorten pathways... which is either not going to happen because you wouldn't have humans anymore because you'd be a genetic mess or any improvement would be negligible.
2. Access to military training is one thing, but the Clans have such a high dropout rate from their sibkos (particularly the Steel Vipers) that you have to wonder if genetic superiority is really at play. It is probably just the high requirements to graduation. The size of Inner Sphere realms means you can't be that picky or you wouldn't have a sufficiently large military even with FASAnomics. The trial-based system of combat for the Clans allows such a luxury. But if the Inner Sphere was just as selective from their academies, it would probably look similar (ie. a regular Inner Sphere pilot would have gunnery/piloting of 3/4 like the Clans instead of 4/5).
3. Just the insanely stupid technological edge. It's hard to lose when your LRMs weigh have as much as your opponent's and doesn't have a minimum range.
That's the one thing missing from all this fiction. Where is that scene of an Inner Sphere mechwarrior putting a Clan warrior in his place describing how bullshit the whole Clan mentality is. "Oh, you think you're so superior? Oh, must be nice when all your stuff weighs half as much and has greater damage output. Superior, my ass!"
But we haven't had that happen yet, which is a shame. The idea that Clans would have a mindset, but be forced to deal with reality and change in a sort of Reformation would make them much more interesting.
-
I think I take a contrarian view to many of the points here. Perhaps because I came in with MW2 and the Refusal War, and didn't experience the 3025 era. I guess I might have had different views if that were so.
Plotwise the Clans made sense. SciFi universes have had "alienlike invaders from outer space who are really humans who left long ago", it's not a terribly unique, out of left field twist. (Dune as well btw). As befits one of the most engineering-fantasy games on the market, the BT version of the tale is relatively logical and grounded in technological projections of very human antagonists.
Techwise the Clans are the result of a society geared wholly towards war. I notice a lot of complaints about their "overpoweredness" but that is really quite surprising to me considering the other threads here in the forum which concluded that there's no way the Clans can beat the IS. And the tech gap narrows even further post-Bulldog and Jihad. Somebody said Clantech is better "ton for ton"; well duh, if you're playing Clans vs IS ton for ton, you're doing it wrong. The Clans have always been ounumbered and the battle has always been one of quantity vs quality. Playing it any other way is obviously unbalanced.
Characterwise the Clans make sense in the sense that they don't. They wish to bring peace to the galaxy, but by means of war. They abhor waste and politics, but needlessly expend huge resources for war and practice realpolitik more than the IS does. They envision a utopian law-abiding society with rules for limiting the damage from conflict resolution, but created a police state where Might is right and war is the ultimate objrctive of most ends. They even basically built the ultimate hippie-idealist's society of completely free love but destroyed the meaning of the word in the process. The fact that their espoused ideals are completely at odds with their real nature is hardly surprising, and makes them very human.
The real issue is I think BT's lack of emphasis on the inherent paradoxes of the Clan Way - BT has been trying to sell the initial idea, but neglected the follow-up. The only way to play the Clans as a protagonist is to embrace the contrariness and Machiavellianly manipulate it to one's self-serving ends, or to struggle idealistically (and perhaps futilely) against the inherent conflict.
But it's rare to see much of such depth of discussion in BT, which tends to get caught up in lovingly admiring the cerulean beams of coruscating destruction celebrating the forcible imposition of one's own will over the lesser beings... Which says something about BT fans and the Clan way dunnit?
-
Jeez, Abou. We JUST talked about this last night. I had no idea that this thread existed.
I got into BattleTech because of the Clans, no shame. The reason wasn't actually because of their technological advantage, but because of Enhanced Imaging (thanks cartoon) and their approach to combat. I liked the idea of honorable combat, I thought it put some flavor into the game, and I felt that ProtoMechs were going to be their future. It was teased with the Skinwalker, but man I was wrong...
However...
I literally cannot stand the popular fan base for the Clans. It's what ultimately drove me away from them. I also did not like how they were "humanized" over the years, if that makes any sense. So help me god, I love Wars of Reaving, it's a good book, but it felt so out of character for them and the book felt like it was killing them off for the sake of just doing that. Operation: Klondike felt like the last pure Clan book. I've had a huge debate about this in the past with some of you current(?) members and it got pretty heated.
I mean, in summary, they're a warrior society that doesn't fear death. Play them that way. It's unfortunate that most of the Clan games I played were with people who were using their tricked out MechWarrior Online style meta builds, with some excuse for it.
-
2. Access to military training is one thing, but the Clans have such a high dropout rate from their sibkos (particularly the Steel Vipers) that you have to wonder if genetic superiority is really at play. It is probably just the high requirements to graduation. The size of Inner Sphere realms means you can't be that picky or you wouldn't have a sufficiently large military even with FASAnomics. The trial-based system of combat for the Clans allows such a luxury. But if the Inner Sphere was just as selective from their academies, it would probably look similar (ie. a regular Inner Sphere pilot would have gunnery/piloting of 3/4 like the Clans instead of 4/5).
FWIW, even clan trueborn mechwarriors get advantages that clan freeborn mechwarriors do not in the RPGs, in spite of their comparable training. You can say that is just crunch and not fluff, but well... even in fluff no one acts as if the Clan eugenics is just an extraneous factor atop of their training regime. Not even Natasha Kerensky. She just thinks her skills and experience are enough to make up the difference; which is to say one of the greatest mechwarriors in the IS can overcome them, not Sergeant Joe Average in a random Outreach-based merc crew.
As for the IS, they can definitely afford to be picky. They have less than what? 15,000 mechwarriors, even in the largest state, compared to a population of billions or trillions of people. But even then, the idea of mechwarriors being a genetic elite rears its head because you have the heads of state, nobility and their progeny being more or less consistently excellent mechwarriors (Katrina Steiner, Ian Davion, the Kell family, Takashi and Theodore Kurita, Candace Liao, Justin Allard and their son, etc.) which points the way to say, yeah, a lot these skills are innate and most of the population don't have the right stuff. It is certainly an uncomfortable direction to lean in, but the authors do lean that direction, rather than having the nobility adopting command positions while the truly stellar mechwarriors under them come from a grab-bag of "literally who? from where?" backgrounds, which you would expect if they were actually drawing upon their full populations for the best in a meritocratic system of recruiting and training mechwarriors.
Of course, that would be somewhat at odds with the whole neo-feudal, Mad Max with robots aesthetic as well...
-
Clan philosophy (for lack of a better term) seems to me to be simply taking the Ares Conventions to an extreme. Bidding reduces collateral damage (especially to civilians), Isorla allows the absorption of facilities and population without the possibility of ongoing guerilla activity - or a scorched earth policy. Orbital bombardment and WMD's are considered to be at least distasteful and only used as a last resort (and probably reflect poorly on the commander who had to order it).
As to the Clans being alien, I'm not sure. Their culture certainly is to inner-sphere normals. An argument could certainly be made that Elementals are no longer entirely human (or are more than human, depending on your point of view).
I suppose I like them more than I don't. You can look at warfare in the inner-sphere prior to the Clan Invasion as being the equivalent of WW1 trench warfare. Little changes to borders. Few, if any decisive battles until 4th Succession War when strategic mobility (and surprise) allowed the conquest of a substantial part of a state. Trying the same thing in 3039 showed 2 could play that game.
Then the Clans arrived. Blitzkrieg beyond what the I.S states could imagine. This should have forced the I.S. to adopt more mobile tactics ,and did to some extent. Ultimately though, Clan Blitzkrieg tactics were based on lack of resources - they had to win quickly because of small numbers. When they were forced to fight what amounted to an attrition battle by Focht they lost miserably.
-
As for the IS, they can definitely afford to be picky. They have less than what? 15,000 mechwarriors, even in the largest state, compared to a population of billions or trillions of people. But even then, the idea of mechwarriors being a genetic elite rears its head because you have the heads of state, nobility and their progeny being more or less consistently excellent mechwarriors (Katrina Steiner, Ian Davion, the Kell family, Takashi and Theodore Kurita, Candace Liao, Justin Allard and their son, etc.) which points the way to say, yeah, a lot these skills are innate and most of the population don't have the right stuff. It is certainly an uncomfortable direction to lean in, but the authors do lean that direction, rather than having the nobility adopting command positions while the truly stellar mechwarriors under them come from a grab-bag of "literally who? from where?" backgrounds, which you would expect if they were actually drawing upon their full populations for the best in a meritocratic system of recruiting and training mechwarriors.
Shhhhh. Don't mention the War.
The Clans are pretty much every IS archetype, quirk, and concept turned up to 11 and pushed to the forefront.
Animal avatar fetishism? Wolves and Dragons?
Weird costumes? At one point it was fashionable to tattoo the FWL Crest on your forehead.
Limited Trials? Someone mentioned objective raids.
Messed up twisted cultural traditions? Do I have to point at the CC and DC?
Ironically the Clans are closer to the Mad Max roots of Battletech than the IS, which was cleaned up, industrialized, modernized, democratized, and generally made a more North American in the mid 90s kind of place.
As usual I blame Hanse for all of it.
-
What bothers me most about the Clans is that there has not been a real reckoning of the Clan way of life with reality. The Wars of Reaving touched upon this idea, but went the opposite way with a more conservative tack. What I essentially mean is this: once you get beyond the Elemental phenotype, how much better are Clan warriors than Inner Sphere warriors? You have a society that venerates the warrior caste and the mechwarrior in specific. But look at the reality.
1. Genetic engineering is only going to push humanity so far until examples are no longer human: as in they cannot produce viable offspring with other. The Clans have probably removed most if not all congenital diseases through their genetics programs, but things like reactions are governed by the speed of nerve impulses. Billions of years of evolution have already made nerves go just about as fast as they can. As such, you can't have reactions faster than that unless you somehow rewire the nervous system to shorten pathways... which is either not going to happen because you wouldn't have humans anymore because you'd be a genetic mess or any improvement would be negligible.
2. Access to military training is one thing, but the Clans have such a high dropout rate from their sibkos (particularly the Steel Vipers) that you have to wonder if genetic superiority is really at play. It is probably just the high requirements to graduation. The size of Inner Sphere realms means you can't be that picky or you wouldn't have a sufficiently large military even with FASAnomics. The trial-based system of combat for the Clans allows such a luxury. But if the Inner Sphere was just as selective from their academies, it would probably look similar (ie. a regular Inner Sphere pilot would have gunnery/piloting of 3/4 like the Clans instead of 4/5).
3. Just the insanely stupid technological edge. It's hard to lose when your LRMs weigh have as much as your opponent's and doesn't have a minimum range.
That's the one thing missing from all this fiction. Where is that scene of an Inner Sphere mechwarrior putting a Clan warrior in his place describing how bullshit the whole Clan mentality is. "Oh, you think you're so superior? Oh, must be nice when all your stuff weighs half as much and has greater damage output. Superior, my ass!"
But we haven't had that happen yet, which is a shame. The idea that Clans would have a mindset, but be forced to deal with reality and change in a sort of Reformation would make them much more interesting.
The novels do mention this sort of sideways. I recall in the Blood of Kerensky books it would seem that unlike the mech battles the Aerospace fights seemed much more even. Later in the Twilight of the Clans Victor is invading Strahna Mechty and the Khan of the Ice Hellions as I recall said they should fight in the skies as the drop ships aproach and another Khan (I think it was the Ghost Bears) said that in the air they did not seem to have much of an advantage. So it seems at the very least the genetics angle did not seem to offer much of an advantage at least in the air.
I definitely feel that the genetics was not as big as an advantage as they think. IN addition to these instances in the book when you see in the Jade Falcons what Freebirths have to do to become warriors compared to the Trueborns the freeborns are treated worse, are trained worse (or at least in many cases the trainers do not care about how they do because they should not matter), are given inferior equipment, and often are put in situations where they can die but the trueborns they are facing are not. And with all that they still have the gall to say that it is the genetics that make them better.
That being said I have liked the clans but I have not enjoyed many of the newer story ideas using them. To be fair I find that to be true with the Inner Sphere too. Essentially I have sadly not liked most story elements from the FedCom Civil War onwards.
-
I hate the clans. They're the worst.
Notice me sempai's! I practically role play a Sea Fox out of character on these forums. I obviously like them.
I was totally a 3025 grognard for awhile though. My first battletech item was citytech boxed set.
Then I read the stack pole books and got into Clan Wolf.... then I focused on 3025 for a long time...
And now post 3050 I'm selling stuff and piloting some OP mechs.
With luck we'll see a post Ilclan reset of tech to fix the balance issues.
-
I was thrilled with the Clans when they first came out, they were the revolutionary Return of Kerensky that had been foreshadowed since the game started. But I was also in my early teens and settling matters by manly trial-by-combat seemed totally reasonable for interstellar nations. By about 2000, I was seriously underwhelmed by their culture, way of life, way of war and many other facets about the Clans. They even seemed like very disappointing heirs of Kerensky.
That said, I find their culture and even their economy quite plausible, moreso than some aspects of the Inner Sphere. A military junta with a very communist civilian economy, planned labor system, and vast under-employment is exactly something humans would create out of the deprivations of the Exodus civil war. I just wouldn't want to live in such a culture.
-
FASA did allow the Clans to get stale after the Falcon and Wolf Refusal War (still one of my favorite stories by the way) the IS became the center of the Meta again with laying the foundation for the FedCom Civil War, the Com Star schism, Sun-Tzu Liao's shenanigans, the Thomas Marik soap opera and Teddy Kurita vs the Black Dragon. We all those sub plots going on, I can't blame FASA for pushing the Clan onto the back burner until the new Star League kicked their teeth in but we got so many stories after FASA for that same time period, it does almost feel like a wasted opportunity but that's hey, that's already history.
Wars of the Reaving was great and it's been a ride watching the IS Clans in the Dark age *press F for Clan Nova Cat*
-
It's no secret that I dislike the Clans pretty intensely, and I think Kidd and Iracundus summarized a lot of the reasons why further upthread, but I do have one issue to take with the whole "Clans were unbalanced!" topic. Yes they have better tech, but the balancing factor was there from the beginning.
Zellbriggen
The idea that the Clans would argue for the right to attack with the least amount of forces possible to do the job has been in the fluff since the beginning of their appearance in the fiction and has been codified in the rules since at least the Battletech Compendium in 1989.
The problem was (and is in a lot of cases) that the Clan players back in the day ignored that rule. It also wasn't pushed/emphasized as hard by FASA as I feel it should have been, and so players either didn't know it existed or ignored it because they didn't like it or understand it. I still feel this is the generating point for a lot of the "Clans ruined Battletech" mindset that exists out there amongst players-from-back-in-the-day. Clan tech without the balancing mechanism in place can rapidly become un-fun to play against, and I think this is a lot of what happened to create that mindset
-
The problem was (and is in a lot of cases) that the Clan players back in the day ignored that rule. It also wasn't pushed/emphasized as hard by FASA as I feel it should have been, and so players either didn't know it existed or ignored it because they didn't like it or understand it. I still feel this is the generating point for a lot of the "Clans ruined Battletech" mindset that exists out there amongst players-from-back-in-the-day. Clan tech without the balancing mechanism in place can rapidly become un-fun to play against, and I think this is a lot of what happened to create that mindset
Well said.
You know, my first group actually disbanded when I wanted to run a MechWarrior 2 Mercs inspired campaign using introductory tech. They didn't want to part with their Clan 'Mechs.
-
Well said.
You know, my first group actually disbanded when I wanted to run a MechWarrior 2 Mercs inspired campaign using introductory tech. They didn't want to part with their Clan 'Mechs.
Kinda says it all right there. Power gamers are the enemy.
-
It's no secret that I dislike the Clans pretty intensely, and I think Kidd and Iracundus summarized a lot of the reasons why further upthread, but I do have one issue to take with the whole "Clans were unbalanced!" topic. Yes they have better tech, but the balancing factor was there from the beginning.
Zellbriggen
The idea that the Clans would argue for the right to attack with the least amount of forces possible to do the job has been in the fluff since the beginning of their appearance in the fiction and has been codified in the rules since at least the Battletech Manual in 1989.
The problem was (and is in a lot of cases) that the Clan players back in the day ignored that rule. It also wasn't pushed/emphasized as hard by FASA as I feel it should have been, and so players either didn't know it existed or ignored it because they didn't like it or understand it. I still feel this is the generating point for a lot of the "Clans ruined Battletech" mindset that exists out there amongst players-from-back-in-the-day. Clan tech without the balancing mechanism in place can rapidly become un-fun to play against, and I think this is a lot of what happened to create that mindset
I do think this is pretty spot on. I got into the game only a few years after the Clans were introduced. I had my typical early power gamer phase but Liam's Ghost managed to put up with me long enough to break most of my habits.
I'll admit I'm still not entirely sold on the idea that descendants of the SLDF would evolve into the Clan military junta we see but I've also learned enough real world history since getting into the game that I could accept that it isn't entirely unreasonable either.
I also admit one of my biggest problems with a lot of the various tech progressions has been that so much of it relies heavily on special case rules rather than being outright better and some weapons have become rather subpar so I'm not bothered by clan tech being outright better in most cases. I can see that maybe it was perhaps too much in certain cases and thus ripe for abuse but no amount of rules is going to stop power gamers.
-
Very good points pro and con made by many. Certainly they do come off as self-righteous hypocrites, particularly when even supposedly die-hard warrior traditionalists like the Falcons and Jaguars are shown playing politics and self-justifying it to themselves. In that way they're no different from the Houses, ComStar or various real-life societies.
The impression one gets from reading various sourcebooks is that aspects of Clan culture like bidding and zellbriggen started off with the genuine intention of limiting war's destruction and saving noncombatant's lives, a logical response given their first-hand memories of total warfare. The caste system and Trials of Position were meant to give equal opportunity based on skills and aptitudes, not accident of birth, as well as ensuring an optimal amount of people doing each job. All of that spurred on by the harshness and resource scarcity of the Clan homeworlds.
And then, as with any long-lasting society, the opposite occurs: the caste system becomes entrenched, bloodlines are judged en masse rather than by individual merit, factional differences arise over interpretations of 'holy writ' with more personal animosities thrown into the mix.
Perhaps not a society one would enjoy living in but an interesting one to play with and read about.
-
The Clans are just another opposition force . They have a qualitative edge the Inner Sphere have a quantitative edge if it becomes a war of attrition the Clans Lose .
-
Count me as another who came to the boardgame from MW2.
I can definitely see a certain agreeable simplicity to the game in its pre-Clan state. Fewer rules, fewer equipment, and fewer factions. In a game that is as rules dense as Battletech, that is definitely attractive. I also don't think there was ever really a need for as many Clans as we ended up with. You could have easily stopped at the original invading four plus three and called it good. The Homeworld Clans make a neat boogeyman, but they haven't ever really done anything of significant value to the overall narrative.
On the whole, though, the game just wouldn't be as interesting without them. What would the alternative have been to keep the setting fresh? Leaving the Inner Sphere in a stagnate state with the same Great Houses occasionally pushing their neighbors around? An unlikely invasion from a known Periphery State to shake things up? A Comstar uprising?
I think a better tactic would have been to give the Inner Sphere armies access to Clan tech shortly after the invasion. Or have the Clans invade with the same Star League tech that they left with and let the Inner Sphere eventually catch up naturally with the Helm Memory Core. That way, they would have been a significant threat for a while, but eventually everything would have evened out AND we could have moved forward without two different-but-only-just equipment lists.
-
On the whole, though, the game just wouldn't be as interesting without them. What would the alternative have been to keep the setting fresh? Leaving the Inner Sphere in a stagnate state with the same Great Houses occasionally pushing their neighbors around? An unlikely invasion from a known Periphery State to shake things up? A Comstar uprising?
The Inner Sphere would have been a lot more dynamic if they hadn't stuck to the idea of four or five super-states that run everything. Breaking things up into many small factions vying for power (which is how a FEUDAL society should be organized) would make small wars actually mean something and we'd see borders change on a generational basis, as this duke's or that count's loyalties shifted.
You can keep the five basic empires, but allow their vassal sub-factions much more autonomy, their own house armies, and their own unit lists. And give them major characters to follow.
Entire mini-empires could be formed out of various border principalities, whose populations have more in common with one another than they do with the empires from which they separated. And then those states could just as quickly fall apart. The only nod we get to that in the entire timeline is Rasalhague, which came and went, inconsequentially, during a time-jump in the fiction.
Look at the way maps of Europe changed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M90C7FA4FYU) between 1066 and 1870, and then compare that to the map of the Inner Sphere. The IS does not behave like a feudal society.
It's really one of the long-running problems. The writers never let the feudal culture sink deep enough into the identity of the factions--they are for the most part entirely too contemporary, Western (in a post-Westphalian sense), and downright familiar relative to what the setting is supposed to be. Feudal titles are treated more or less as aliases for local government offices in modern nation-states.
BattleTech was Game of Thrones before there was a Game of Thrones, and so much of that soap opera potential has been allowed to evaporate with stagnant borders.
-
Clan philosophy (for lack of a better term) seems to me to be simply taking the Ares Conventions to an extreme. Bidding reduces collateral damage (especially to civilians), Isorla allows the absorption of facilities and population without the possibility of ongoing guerilla activity - or a scorched earth policy. Orbital bombardment and WMD's are considered to be at least distasteful and only used as a last resort (and probably reflect poorly on the commander who had to order it).
As to the Clans being alien, I'm not sure. Their culture certainly is to inner-sphere normals. An argument could certainly be made that Elementals are no longer entirely human (or are more than human, depending on your point of view).
I suppose I like them more than I don't. You can look at warfare in the inner-sphere prior to the Clan Invasion as being the equivalent of WW1 trench warfare. Little changes to borders. Few, if any decisive battles until 4th Succession War when strategic mobility (and surprise) allowed the conquest of a substantial part of a state. Trying the same thing in 3039 showed 2 could play that game.
Then the Clans arrived. Blitzkrieg beyond what the I.S states could imagine. This should have forced the I.S. to adopt more mobile tactics ,and did to some extent. Ultimately though, Clan Blitzkrieg tactics were based on lack of resources - they had to win quickly because of small numbers. When they were forced to fight what amounted to an attrition battle by Focht they lost miserably.
The Clans originally aren't supposed to make war as "war", they actually fight as ritualised jousts. (Contradiction; the Clans build peace by making war, but make war in the most peaceful manner...)
There's no blitzkrieg or manoeuvre warfare; they don't win by destroying the enemy's supplies or commanders or will to fight - they simply agree to abide by the results (another contradiction; their society revolves totally around war, but doesn't practice total war...)
(I don't know if the original writers knew this, but again, it's not something new to the history of mankind. The Greek city-states practiced this kind of warfare for a while amongst themselves. They came to an agreed-upon battlefield, had a phalanx-pushing contest, then the losing city abided by the results and paid compensation and/or surrendered whatever it was they were fighting over.) This ended with the Greco-Persian war.
Similarly with the Clans, what ended up happening is that they threw the warbook out with Tukayyid and the Refusal, when they encountered the IS who do practice total war, especially in the face of such radical disruption to their way of life.
The Clans had to adopt the IS version of total war, because they found their enemies had no intention of sticking to combat by Trial and were just gaming the system. We first see that in I think the Coventry campaign, led by the Jade Falcons. As such their tactics must have changed to become manoeuvre warfare in the way you mention. The other IS Clans soon followed suit.
This of course gave rise to accusations of departure from "da Clan Wae" from the Homeworlders. Who proceeded to declare, logically, ironically, paradoxically and incidentally self-beneficially, that if you want to play it that way all bets are off, and Total War-ed the living crap out of everyone.
Which "Reaving method" although foregone by the IS Clans, has been adopted by Malvina Hazen again. Whereas Alaric and the other IS Clans practice a slightly more restrained form, basically adopting the Ares Conventions (or the common IS interpretation thereof...)
So much for Clan grand strategy. But something which I haven't seen yet is the IS Clans making full advantage of the vast comparative amount of resources available in the IS compared to the Kerensky Cluster. With their advanced manufacturing techniques and iron wombs, they should have much larger army sizes as well.
Which is what I'd like to see actually now that the Clan/IS technology gap has narrowed. Oh, and a general Clan hegemony in the IS post-ilClan (whether they still retain Terra or not), rather than staying strictly split in subfactions.
-
Charlie Tango summed it up reasonably well. I don't dislike Clan Tech by itself (the "free" Clan double heat-sinks inside the engine are certainly pushing it, however), but the way it was introduced left too much leeway for blatant "muchkinism", and it's STILL problematical to balance a 3050's era Clan versus Inner Sphere battle because the terrain and map size have such a pronounced effect on the outcome. If the IS can close to where it's got decent to-hit odds, its tonnage advantage will usually carry the fight just because of the greater number of armor and structure circles; if the map is large and relatively open, the Clans can use their speed and range advantages to pick the IS units apart with near-impunity. Granted, luck plays a factor, but on average using BV2, the IS will win in a wooded phone booth, while the Clans will win on a wide open plain. Clan versus Clan can be fun, and was never a problem, although it takes the game in a direction that I personally don't care as much for.
Before BV2, trying to come up with some workable balance mechanism was even harder, and there were no official guidelines. FASA clearly dropped the ball on that. That meant the rules lawyers and power-mongers would try to press every advantage, and many of them seriously expected you to gladly play IS against their Clan force of equal tonnage (NO, I will NOT run my 200 ton IS lance against your two 100 ton Clan 'Mechs with super-elite 1/1 pilots. What!!! You seriously expect me to let you run a 500 ton Clan STAR against my IS lance?????). My old BT gaming group self-destructed over it, since half of the players would ONLY play Clan, and the rest wouldn't play against Clan and/or were unhappy about having to play Clan. The zellbringen rules weren't spelled out in detail as a proper way of balancing a game, so they were usually ignored by the Clanners of the time, and "rules of honor" were usually out the window from the start, or used in such a way that they did nothing to constrain the Clan player ("I'm calling a duel between your Locust and my Ice Ferret"), or were instantly dropped in favor of concentrated fire from massed cERPPCs, cLPLs, and GRs on turn 1.
My biggest gripe wasn't with the tech, it was the players it tended to attract, which I considered to be bad for the game in the long run. Of course, many of them have since grown up and become far more reasonable, learning the value of a fair challenge, and most of the rest have left.
-
The Inner Sphere would have been a lot more dynamic if they hadn't stuck to the idea of four or five super-states that run everything. Breaking things up into many small factions vying for power (which is how a FEUDAL society should be organized) would make small wars actually mean something and we'd see borders change on a generational basis, as this duke's or that count's loyalties shifted.
You can keep the five basic empires, but allow their vassal sub-factions much more autonomy, their own house armies, and their own unit lists. And give them major characters to follow.
Entire mini-empires could be formed out of various border principalities, whose populations have more in common with one another than they do with the empires from which they separated. And then those states could just as quickly fall apart. The only nod we get to that in the entire timeline is Rasalhague, which came and went, inconsequentially, during a time-jump in the fiction.
Yeah. MWDA had too many factions and it killed their game. They were literally trying to reduce the amount of battletech factions a little while ago. That's not gonna work from a making fans perspective.
-
That's the one thing missing from all this fiction. Where is that scene of an Inner Sphere mechwarrior putting a Clan warrior in his place describing how bullshit the whole Clan mentality is. "Oh, you think you're so superior? Oh, must be nice when all your stuff weighs half as much and has greater damage output. Superior, my ass!"
But we haven't had that happen yet, which is a shame. The idea that Clans would have a mindset, but be forced to deal with reality and change in a sort of Reformation would make them much more interesting.
You know that happened at the end of Revival. Phelan's speech in support of Ulric and the proxy of Tukayyid, he talks about how Kai repeatedly defeated IS warriors and Victor's saving Hohiro on a Jag held world. How he rose in the ranks as a IS warrior.
-
I was hoping for a greater cultural upheaval though. Instead we got business as usual. The Jags paid a price for their behavior during the invasion, but it isn't as though Clan society as a whole grew. Instead accomplished mechwarriors like Horse still held status as second-class citizens and Diana Pryde's accomplishments didn't have reverberations far beyond the Falcons. Things changed slowly with the Ghost Bears, but there wasn't a crisis of faith in trueborns that I feel there should have been.
-
To compare:
The Clans are supposed to be meritocratic, but are full of hypocrisy. So being faced with reality, there would be major consequences.
In the 1st SW, the DCMS was incredibly successful until Kentares. The behavior of fellow troops and the Coordinator destroyed the morale of the military and left stains on some units for centuries.
-
I was hoping for a greater cultural upheaval though. Instead we got business as usual. The Jags paid a price for their behavior during the invasion, but it isn't as though Clan society as a whole grew. Instead accomplished mechwarriors like Horse still held status as second-class citizens and Diana Pryde's accomplishments didn't have reverberations far beyond the Falcons. Things changed slowly with the Ghost Bears, but there wasn't a crisis of faith in trueborns that I feel there should have been.
I suppose it technically remains to be seen if the Wolves become ilClan, but I think everyone knows they're going to be ilClan despite having to "turn native" and allow Sphereoids to fill out their lower castes AND their warrior caste following Melissa's betrayal. Hell there's probably more Clanners in the Combine (sterilized and put in labor camps) than in the whole of the Wolf Empire...
-
I think it was someone here who said this some years ago and I've always used it for why I love the
Clans Jade Falcons...
Clan is a culture, not a Tech base.
If you're just using Clantech then you're not really playing the Clans. And since the first introduction of the Clans, the IS has severely eroded the Tech gap to the point where the IS can actually produce Clantech in the DA time period, it's just usually cheaper to buy it from the Sea Foxes. The IS tool kit by that time has evolved into a complex array of fantastic equipment that is essentially a series of force modifiers that require finesse to use, but that will easily dominate a game far more than a Clan ERML or Clan LRM.
The Clans have just been given a bigger bag of hammers as time has gone on.
I love the Clans Jade Falcons. I love the casual Warrior arrogance, the funny costumes, the ritual way of acting/thinking/speaking simply because everything you say and do could end up with you fighting someone in an honor duel. And I love that, despite their "alien" nature, they're still obviously human and produce their share of sinners and saints, lovable screw-ups and anti-heroes. In the hands of some of the writers, those who understand that they are still people despite their weird customs and bizarre moral codes, they shine in particular. In the hands of others they become the sort of Snidely Whiplash villains that make you wince at how evil they are in their evilness.
The treatment of the Clans (especially the Jade Falcons) is one of the largest turn-offs for me in DA/AoD honestly, which is one of the major reasons that I've been so "Meh" about BT for the past couple of years. I still enjoy aspects of the post-Blackout period (including becoming a fan of the Republic of the Sphere much to my own surprise), but seeing my beloved Jade Falcons obviously being set up to take the same fall that the Smoke Jaguars were set up for really rankles.
TL; DR It's your game, play it how you want. But just because you're using a Timber Wolf and saying 'Aff' and 'Neg' doesn't mean that you're playing the Clans. ;)
-
I began playing with the 3rd edition boxed set, and it was probably 1991 or so. The Clans had just been introduced. I was 13 or 14, and didn't have the money to buy any extra stuff, so the Clans remained a mystery to me. The Jade Falcon and Wolf sourcebooks sat on the shelf at the local hobby shop, but I had no idea what they were about. So my friends and I played 3025 Battletech because that's all that existed, as far as we knew. Eventually one of my friends bought the 2nd edition Battletech Compendium (with the gray MadCat and Elemental on the cover), and that's when I was introduced to advanced tech and the Clans.
This was amazing. Clan weapons were awesome! Who are these guys? I dunno! It doesn't say anything about their background in the Compendium. Certainly not enough to figure out who they are or where they come from. We had zero context at all for these new weapons. So we just started building our own mechs, using Clan weapons, and still having our Inner Sphere vs Inner Sphere fights. Then somebody bought the 3055 Tech Readout. Ah, so these guys are invading the Inner Sphere. You mean I'm not playing Clan Davion? What kinda crap is this? It still didn't have enough background for us to figure out what the story was. Eventually I saved up enough lunch money to buy TRO 3050. Holy crap, these guys are the descendants of Kerensky!
My first year and a half or so of Battletech was an interesting experience. None of my friends read any of the novels (or even knew the novels existed and fit in with the story line). We didn't buy the sourcebooks in the order they were published. But we were young and we had great imaginations, and I don't think the real background will ever quite match up to what my half-informed early teenage self imagined it to be. "The guy on the cover of the ComStar book looks like a wizard. Dude, I bet they have magic."
So I can't really say that the Clans ruined Battletech for me or anything, because my early experience was so muddled. I had my teenage desire to power-game, but as I started to figure out that the Clans were the bad guys, and they were attacking my beloved Federated Suns (I just thought the sword and sunburst symbol was awesome -- my background knowledge was still super-limited), I started to see Clantech as almost cheating. It's the easy button, like a cheat code in a video game. We of course knew nothing about Clan honor, and honestly we weren't even very good players. We would walk up to our opponent, stand still, and shoot until one side fell down. "This is a great game!" But their technology was so much better that a lot of the classic designs that I loved (Battlemaster, Marauder, etc) just looked pathetic by comparison. That made me sad in a way I didn't really understand.
The original game has a great balance. Everything is a compromise between maneuverability, firepower, armor, and heat. A skilled player can defeat an unskilled player most of the time, but there's still a component of luck that allows the new guy to get in a lucky shot sometimes and win the game. With Clan technology, a lot of the compromises go away. You can be fast and heavily armed and well armored and have no heat problems. This is wonderful from a fictional warfighting perspective, but it's not great for a beer and pretzels board game. I think game balance suffered tremendously, and I don't know that it's ever really recovered. On the occasions were my friends and I get together to play today, it's almost always 3025.
Background-wise, the Clans clearly take a lot of inspiration from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. Once I read that book in college, the Clans got a lot creepier. That works pretty well for villains, but it also made it harder for me to accept them as just another faction that people would want to play. As far as their genetic engineering goes, I have no problem with them getting bonuses that make them better in combat. Remember that what they're really doing is churning out hundreds of sibkos, each with potentially hundreds of children, and whittling them down to produce a handful of warriors. I think the Jade Phoenix trilogy mentions that Aidan Pryde's sibko started at a few hundred kids, and by the time they were 14 or so it was down to like 30. Then it only produces like two or three mechwarriors from that entire group. I'd say that method of selection is enough to get a +1 bonus or something, given they've artificially increased their effective population to select from.
-
To compare:
The Clans are supposed to be meritocratic, but are full of hypocrisy. So being faced with reality, there would be major consequences.
In the 1st SW, the DCMS was incredibly successful until Kentares. The behavior of fellow troops and the Coordinator destroyed the morale of the military and left stains on some units for centuries.
How so? 'Death to Mercenaries!' and they still execute prisoners.
And what in the history of human behavior ever shows that a group of people confronted by the reality of their hypocrisy even resulted in major consequences that resulted in a self-change? Usually the results is they ignore the evidence and full speed to their destruction.
-
I guess you got me there. But it makes for a boring story unless there is pay-off.
Maybe the Wobbies were right.
-
Maybe the Wobbies were right.
The Wobbies are ALWAYS right ;)
-
I do like the clans and even their tech but that is due to how I tend to view the stories I like with them.
1. Clan vs clan which is fun or
2. Clans are the overall antagonists and your group of plucky IS pilots needs to fight against the nastier clan forces. That too is fun in an under dog sort of way.
While I do enjoy clan culture and I could see how it could be fun trying to use that to restrict yourself to make for a challenge against "inferior" forces to me that probably is not going to be a game I will be using that often.
I will say that I do not care for how some of the clans got used. I agree that there are too many of them and as evidence I would say that many do hardly anything at all and some become hard to distinguish from each other. It is sad that you could probably take away half of them and not notice especially if you give another clan the few things that they are known for. Probably would have worked better if those eliminated clans existed but were destroyed/absorbed during the time leading up to the invasion (yes this did happen already but I think they could have done that more).
While mismanagement is not just a clan thing I do think that the clans have the more unique problem of their being too many of them.
-
I like the Clans for One reason only, you can farm some sweet sweet salvage.
And the contracts to raid them pay Really Really well.
-
I guess you got me there. But it makes for a boring story unless there is pay-off.
Maybe the Wobbies were right.
Payoff? A stern lecture from a white hat ends in a payoff?
Perhaps we are getting a payoff now with IlClan? "Who is hypocritical and on the fast road to destruction now Surat? "
-
Payoff? A stern lecture from a white hat ends in a payoff?
Perhaps we are getting a payoff now with IlClan? "Who is hypocritical and on the fast road to destruction now Surat? "
Well, no. It is that characters have wants and needs, but favoring their wants tends to have consequences.
Peter Parker wants to use his new powers for personal gain. He needs to use his new powers responsibly.
-
I have mixed feelings.
There are things about the Clans I like, and things that drive me crazy.
First of all, for me, I have to remind myself that developing this vast IP with so many cooks in the kitchen over 30 plus years is a difficult thing. Conniving things so that the lore works well with a table top game geared to be fun rather than realistic (fusion powered energy weapons with ranges in the hundreds of meters rather than hundreds of kilometers because nobody can play on a 100 meter table) is hard...
I bet that if the game was developed today, the ease of getting feedback over e-mails, forums, Discord, IM, etc. Would have led to way more play testing and better/balanced Clan factions and equipment.
With that in mind, these are my likes and dislikes:
Likes:
- The Blood of Kerensky trilogy. I was a wee lad when it came out and loved it. The Clans made for an epic addition to the universe, and frankly one that was inevitable in some fashion from the moment the Universe was fluffed with a mass exodus of SLDF units.
- Some cool characters like Ulric Kerensky and a compelling plot device in the Warden cause to protect the Inner Sphere from within the Clans
- Some really evocative units like the Timber Wolf and Gladiator. They really represented FASA hitting its stride in the design department after the rocky start with the unseen.
- Later on the Wars of Reaving made for a compelling story line and while maybe a bit too blood thirsty in parts, a satisfying outcome to an over rigid, war focused, low productivity society, designed by a warped N. Kerensky.
- WoR gave us the Imperio del Escorpión which I find to be an incredibly fun faction which can field some cool and varied forces. You want a Primitive Archer with semi-guided LRMs with a Perseus and Purifier squad providing TAG? You got it. A star with a Star League mech, A Marauder IIC, a Thug with Wolverine Era improved PPCs, a Summoner with improved Heavy lasers, and an Araña militia mech? You got it. Your Seekers found a RWR cache with Dragoons and Rampages? Perfectly plausible.
Dislikes:
- I always figured that Clan forces could be balanced with numbers and things like Arty by IS forces. But playing Megamek has given me an appreciation for how overpowered the clans are, and how much work a GM would have to do to keep things balanced. I don’t play MWO, but balancing that without blowing up the Clan flavor must be a nightmare for the studio.
- The 3025, Clan Invasion up to Tukayiad, and to an extent the Jihad periods are really fun (even with their flaws), but the late Invasion period and Fedcom Civil war were a let down, and depressing. I lost interest in BT for a time in part because of it. Particularly with the Clans, I feel the plot armor and conniving to keep the Wolves and Falcons safe and growing stronger is hard to swallow. They tear each other to pieces, while massively out numbered, thousands of light years from their base of support, facing the Industrial and R&D might of the FC, with supplies streaming in from the FWL, all while trying to subjugate a hostile populous, with little experience in the free wheeling planetary economies they are taking over? The Ghosts Bears won over the populous, the Nova Cats reached an accommodation with the DC…but the Wolves and Falcons? The answer seems to be: Well, the Lyrans, and the FC before that have been too busy crotch punching themselves, from 3052 to 3145 to leverage their industrial, work force, financial, and scientific might (not to mention the tech of the Wolves in Exile) to rid themselves of this horrible threat occupying scores of their planets and subjugating billions of their countrymen…..that’s hard to take. I feel like the Wolves and Falcons should have been slowly pushed back, and while still holding some of their planets in the Inner Sphere, would have revived and set up shop in many of the old RWR, Periphery Kingdom territories.
- WoR was pretty good, but the penchant for mass sterilization is a bit much, it’s a recipe for a Demographic nightmare. What are the Cloud Cobras going to do on Roche? Stuck in an Economic system that is low surplus by design, with a rapidly aging population with zero natural population growth? Use scarce transportation resources to ship in millions of people from other hard hit planets that need all the labor they have? Spend a huge amount of resources to build a huge Iron womb system for the civilian castes, and then have to mothball it all in 20 years after the population situation stabilizes? If I had to take up the storyline for the Homies, it would include some quiet sterilization reversals using clan advanced medicine.
I really hope that when the Home Clans get reintroduced into the story line, their power is reflective of an extremely difficult recovery process, social change reflective of the value of labor after mass death (see what happened in Europe after the Black Death) and they don’t come out steamrolling like in Ben Rome’s April Fools timeline.
-
I don’t play MWO, but balancing that without blowing up the Clan flavor must be a nightmare for the studio
Nah, they just rob the clans of most of their effectiveness.
I've got a Marauder 5D with 2 Heavy PPCs, 3 Medium Pulse, Streak 4, and I have a Timber Wolf A config, and the only differences I can really tell between them are the different narrators and cockpit art, and relatively superficial differences in range. Well, the HPPC min range smarts a little. But they're roughly the same effectiveness.
-
Posting via a phone, so don't mind the typos, please...
What the Clans did during the Wars of Reaving bothers me too. They essentially bottlenecked their selves - again.
For a society obsessed with genetics, the clans make dumb decissions from a genetically-inclined point of view. Yes, it's only a game, but it's science fiction that prides itself on being a somewhat harder brand of science fiction whenever possible, so I feel free to complain. In this instance, the Home Clans have done a lot of hard work to eliminate genetic diversity whenever possible throughout the Wars of Reaving. Mass sterilization, orbital obliteration of population groups who hold different values and ideas, on top of their "gene puddle" of a warrior caste.
The warrior caste is effectively a population on a self-imposed island. After a few hundred years, we're already getting to see what happens to populations like that, through bloodhouses that have exhausted their selves (like often with the Mandrills), to individuals who exhibit insanity. Insanity is said in canon to be "rare among the Clans", yet an instance of it led to the wars of reaving, in the person of the Bloody IlKhan. The signs of the clans' "great experiment" coming to an end are there to be discerned. One doesn't even have to look hard for them, the major plot points are rife with them.
Makes one wonder what the Home Clans will bring to the game table next. Perhap they'll break through their own self imposed limits on the genetic engineering techniques they use. They may have to, considering the damage they have done to their selves through the centuries.
-
It is not just genetics that are heading towards a dead end. The Home Clans have crippled their Science caste, destroyed factories, cities, and worlds. I think their ability to recover, let alone to advance, is questionable.
-
I think their ability to recover, let alone to advance, is questionable.
Here's hoping... ;)
-
It is not just genetics that are heading towards a dead end. The Home Clans have crippled their Science caste, destroyed factories, cities, and worlds.
Orbital yards too. Lots of man hours and resources in all of these things you mentioned.
The Clans threw aside all of the values instilled in them by the Founder. They might as well throw them out forever, since the founders were tainted spheroids anyway.
-
Orbital yards too. Lots of man hours and resources in all of these things you mentioned.
The Clans threw aside all of the values instilled in them by the Founder. They might as well throw them out forever, since the founders were tainted spheroids anyway.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/un1u5EN4iCGaY/giphy.gif)
-
(https://media.giphy.com/media/un1u5EN4iCGaY/giphy.gif)
I might as well have a sense of humor about it.
-
Nicholas Kerensky was just as tainted as Phelan Kell. Phelan was at least born under the care and supervision of Wolf's Dragoons scientist caste. Nicholas was a straight up freebirth without even an asterisk.
Believe it or not, quirks and conundrums like this are part of what I like about the Clans. They are just as hypocritical and self serving as any faction of human beings can possibly be.
-
My favorite thing about the clans is the hypocrisy. Sure if sunny backstabs you it's par for the course, if the clans do it then it's shocking!! Most of the hate seems to stem from the clan invasion,which makes sense. But things have changed in the real time to where its more even.
Personally I've seen more min maxing from inner sphere players than clan, just how many medium lasers can I stuff in here and Make it heat neutral!!!
One of the reasons I like the current era is because you see some really awesome mechs that close the tech gap, looking at you lament.
I'm also the weirdo who thinks it's fun to take on battlemechs with infantry so I'm kinda used to facing weird odds.
I've said it before but the great thing about battletech is there's something for everyone and if you're playing a campaign you should hopefully be having it run by someone who will make challenging but fun. There's a little more leeway for pick up battles but mainly your experience will be based on how your game is being run and played. If restless was a munchkin freebirth or a clan player who constantly just picks them for their mechs and didn't adhear to their flavor, I wouldn't play him. No one's forcing a ppc to your head ^_^.
So in the end relax,order a pizza and pop open a beverage of your choice because the game is smashing robots and war...war never changes.
-
Best thread in the forums since I started coming here. Lots of info on the class, but also the game, the universe in general and the broad timeline. Kudos to all of you. I am sending links to this to the other players in my RPG group. It might prompt a revision of what we do in our tabletop, universe and RPG games.
-
Equipment Compatability rules always read to me like someone who thinks of mechs as being like computers in the 90s, and I doubt they were written by someone who actually wrenches on shit or wires it up for a living.
There's nothing stopping someone from dropping a Chevy engine into a Ford Chassis
Anyone who's ever swapped a 390 out for a 402 would know that it takes a hell of a lot more work than just putting in a 428.
-
Mechs being ultra-reconfigurable is a let down for me. It makes mechs lose a lot of personality.
-
Honestly, it depends on your interpretations and what you want to do . . . if you are replacing a AC-10 with a IS/Clan UAC/10 or LB-10X then most folks are not going to bat an eye of at that sort of thing . . . replacing it with a light gauss rifle or plasma rifle will get a few people to balk. More will balk at a 20 class or a Gauss Rifle because the larger size.
History of the mech also matters . . . Clan machines are way more plug & play. New built IS machines should be easier to modify than centuries old mechs that are patched together from pieces over the decades- that 200 year old Griffin my have had its left arm blown off at one point and the only replacement available was a shoulder actuator designed from a Wolverine. So the tech who did the repair had to find the right patch for the software (maybe a different cycle rate for the electricity run through the myomer), shave off some of the myomer around the contact points, and in fact create a few new contact points to graft onto the frame. Its a lot easier to work on a blank canvas than to have to dig through a pile of patches, tack ons, substitutes, and conversions to try to add a new one with the HOPE it does not break something else.
Makes you wonder when the tech/production recovery happened if some of the elite units had their mechs refurbished to the production standard.
-
Mechs being ultra-reconfigurable is a let down for me. It makes mechs lose a lot of personality.
Same. The omnis that have more limited capabilities have so much more character. The Executioner may be objectively a bad 'Mech, the performance of which can't justify its prevalence in Clan toumans, but it has a lot more flavor than the more generic bag-o-guns designs like the Nova Cat.
MWO I think really took the lazy way out by allowing unrestricted customization and opened the game to being dominated by a very shallow meta. Not to mention shooting themselves in the foot with a business model focused on selling new chassis (or, more cynically, exploiting fan nostalgia for old TRO favorites) that would directly benefit from each chassis being unique.
They could have come up with so much more creative customizing systems by abandoning the TT construction rules and leaving stock configs as-is. The skill tree, as it was finally delivered (not the pointless, grindy placeholder they launched with) showed a lot of promise. If customizing had been centered around taking an existing build and tweaking it (meaningfully, not a 2% bonus here and there) to suit a play style, there would've been room for a wider variety of styles to flourish.
-
Mechs being ultra-reconfigurable is a let down for me. It makes mechs lose a lot of personality.
gain you mean
as it stands each Mech is basically a hand-crafted war machine reflecting the tastes of its pilot
from a military POV it's more individually customised than a Starbucks frappe
-
No, I'm pretty sure he means to say lose. When any 65-80 ton 'Mech can be configured to carry the exact same warload, what makes any given model of 'Mech more interesting than another? What's to like about a Mad Cat if every 5/8 heavy can carry the same pair of energy guns & missile racks, give or take a few tubes? Individual Omni chassis lack character - they're essentially mannequins you slap your gun(s) of choice on. Realistically, they're extremely sensible as combat vehicles, but as space opera mechanical death gods they are rather boring.
-
from a military POV it's more individually customised than a Starbucks frappe
Probably a very apt phrase. For some players, it's a work of finesse to create their machine of choice, pronounced in a cultured French accent as "frap-PAY". For others, it's just another big hammer, stuffed with as many energy weapons as the heatsinking will allow, pronounced in a rude urban American accent as "Frap".
The problem is that the degree of configurability would probably be militarily VERY useful, but the inevitable result on the game table is everything being tailored to the overly optimized 'Mech-versus-'Mech meta-game, rather than "normal" combat engagements.
I would have preferred to see mostly stock designs, but with some having a small amount of "swap space" for mission-specific equipment.
-
Probably a very apt phrase. For some players, it's a work of finesse to create their machine of choice, pronounced in a cultured French accent as "frap-PAY". For others, it's just another big hammer, stuffed with as many energy weapons as the heatsinking will allow, pronounced in a rude urban American accent as "Frap".
The problem is that the degree of configurability would probably be militarily VERY useful, but the inevitable result on the game table is everything being tailored to the overly optimized 'Mech-versus-'Mech meta-game, rather than "normal" combat engagements.
I would have preferred to see mostly stock designs, but with some having a small amount of "swap space" for mission-specific equipment.
I'd "like" this post 5 times if they'd let us.
Particularly the frap part. :)
-
See, I like facing someone who expects to face a mech-killing force where they brought a bunch of 3/5 and 4/6 Gauss/ERPPC toting heavies & assaults leaving everything else off. Because I play combined arms with multi-purpose weapon systems and electronics as much as possible- I prefer a LB-10X over a Gauss Rifle b/c I can chose single damage or crit-seeking, it works against vehicles and extremely well knocking out for air support. While I love the reach of ER ATMs, I like taking a design with cLRMs & cSRMs so I can configure my munitions load with things like smoke and infernos- you can fire 22/23 hexes at me, but good luck getting the LOS when I start tossing out smoke & moving behind it. Getting Elementals and later types of suits to swarm that slow moving death blob.
And if I really want to crack your Gauss blob open, on board Thunder & Snipers are a good way to convince the opposition to spread out and keep out of firing positions.
I DO have to admit I am having a hard time 3070+ for campaign customization for fast units not to strip out standard PPCs, Large Pulse Lasers, and even ERPPCs for Snub PPCs. The Wraith . . . Light Ray . . . Nightsky . . . Uziel . . . even something slower like the Enfield with its Large Pulse Laser would benefit from the Snub.
From my experience, the folks who do not want to play against (which is not the same as those who do not use) a combined arms approach is b/c they only want to plan to have to face a force of mechs.
-
I don't really care that much what other people do with rules that have literally existed for the entire life of the game. go nuts. Most people seem to eventually mellow out after a while and not try to min/max every mech in the hanger. In the campaigns I've run, I take a different tact and allow almost no customization outside of switching omni configs with modified units used as rewards for performance because i want omnis to be valuable assets.
I agree that wide open customization robs units of personality but I know it's been a huge draw for people over the years. Any restrictive customization rules would require a much more complicated set of guidelines not suitable for the intro box - and i'd rather have the custom rules in the intro box than not.
-
To steer back on topic, I have found the justification for Clan warriors not being able to totally customize their Omnis having to do with status. You have to be a certain status to get assigned to a frontline unit- which usually means you have a Omni, even for the standard mechwarrior. You have to have a certain status to get a Omni as a officer in a secondline/garrison unit- usually bloodnamed/ristar who got sent their from a frontline unit for seasoning at command. You want your personal loadout on your Omni? You need to be of a status that justifies the Clan 'wasting' time to plan the layout, reprogram the gyro settings, load the software for those weapon systems, save that as a data dump to make it easier to load in the future, and then actually load it on the mech.
Instead of master tech Ginger telling go-fer tech Kilroy, "Go switch the load on that Gargoyle from a Prime to a C, we are not facing Hell's Horses this time. And no graffiti stravag!"
-
To steer back on topic, I have found the justification for Clan warriors not being able to totally customize their Omnis having to do with status. You have to be a certain status to get assigned to a frontline unit- which usually means you have a Omni, even for the standard mechwarrior. You have to have a certain status to get a Omni as a officer in a secondline/garrison unit- usually bloodnamed/ristar who got sent their from a frontline unit for seasoning at command. You want your personal loadout on your Omni? You need to be of a status that justifies the Clan 'wasting' time to plan the layout, reprogram the gyro settings, load the software for those weapon systems, save that as a data dump to make it easier to load in the future, and then actually load it on the mech.
Instead of master tech Ginger telling go-fer tech Kilroy, "Go switch the load on that Gargoyle from a Prime to a C, we are not facing Hell's Horses this time. And no graffiti stravag!"
This, as it turns out, is what Clan scientists were busy doing for the 200 years after the OmniMech was invented.
Designing new and better Omni configs.
You want a personalized loadout and you're not some big-shot Ristar or a Khan? Better bribe the local scientist caste with some warrior-quality hooch and smokes. Or, do the design work as a pet project in your spare time.*
*Offer only valid for Clan Coyote warriors.
-
You need to be of a status that justifies the Clan 'wasting' time to plan the layout, reprogram the gyro settings, load the software for those weapon systems, save that as a data dump to make it easier to load in the future, and then actually load it on the mech.
In Path of Glory, the (very cash-strapped) Mecharrior Zane of the (very cash-strapped) Dragoncat Cluster of the (very cash-strapped) Nova Cat Touman, just about manages to persuade his tech to replace his Pack Hunter's standard armour plates with ferro-fibrous.
I feel we have to separate game and universe considerations here. A lot of the justifications I see here is "because we don't want power-gaming munchkins messing up our sessions". That may be so IRL, but in-universe that's not so much of a problem. So I'm comfortable with the idea of nearly every Clan warrior with an OmniMech using it as intended, within resource limitations, and swapping out some weapon or other.
Particularly since a lot of the original configs are... less than efficient...
-
In Path of Glory, the (very cash-strapped) Mecharrior Zane of the (very cash-strapped) Dragoncat Cluster of the (very cash-strapped) Nova Cat Touman, just about manages to persuade his tech to replace his Pack Hunter's standard armour plates with ferro-fibrous.
I feel we have to separate game and universe considerations here. A lot of the justifications I see here is "because we don't want power-gaming munchkins messing up our sessions". That may be so IRL, but in-universe that's not so much of a problem. So I'm comfortable with the idea of nearly every Clan warrior with an OmniMech using it as intended, within resource limitations, and swapping out some weapon or other.
Particularly since a lot of the original configs are... less than efficient...
Or even something like . . . the Summoner A? Which has two tons of SRM ammo and a single ton of Gauss rifles . . . I would imagine plenty of Falcon mechwarriors browbeat (or maybe literally) their techs into switching out what class ammo was in the 2nd ton.
-
I'd have given omnitech performance penalties instead of being equal or better at everything but cost. You have to leave space in the structure to feed everything from Arrow IVs to machinegun ammo and have a cooling system that can handle shoving an ERPPC in any location except the head.
A non-omni battlemech only needs to leave openings for ammo feeds where it actually has ammo feeds and only needs high capacity cooling loops where it has high heat weapons.
If you want a modular weapons mount on a BA it costs you in mass and space. I think omni on mechs should work similarly. This would also mean an omnimech isn't necessarily omni everywhere. It might only have omni mounts in the arms or even just in one arm with fixed backup weapons in the torso.
-
I feel we have to separate game and universe considerations here. A lot of the justifications I see here is "because we don't want power-gaming munchkins messing up our sessions". That may be so IRL, but in-universe that's not so much of a problem. So I'm comfortable with the idea of nearly every Clan warrior with an OmniMech using it as intended, within resource limitations, and swapping out some weapon or other.
But that just raises the question of why those weird and troublesome configs are the commonplace ones. The nature of the Clans is such that if Mechwarrior Ted dreams up a brilliant loadout and makes it public by using it in a batchall, it will be aped across the entirety of the Clans in six months.
Obviously cooking these things up in-universe is a lot harder than the grade-school math we have to do to get them on the table.
But doing these complicated mental gymnastics to make a fictional universe behave according to arbitrary real-life game rules and aesthetic values without breaking the consistency of its internal logic is half the fun.
Or even something like . . . the Summoner A? Which has two tons of SRM ammo and a single ton of Gauss rifles . . . I would imagine plenty of Falcon mechwarriors browbeat (or maybe literally) their techs into switching out what class ammo was in the 2nd ton.
Having just finished building a Summoner model the other day: I had to completely re-design the left arm pod in order to get just 10 shots of autocannon ammo to fit inside it. There was barely enough room for the gun barrel and breech. The Summoner's shoulder missile drum, OTOH, will easily support two tons of BT's tiny-ass missiles. It's going to get even screwier when you stick a bloody great honking Gauss rifle in the arm.
How they crammed two tons in there for the C model with that ginormous cannon probably required a TARDIS.
-
But that just raises the question of why those weird and troublesome configs are the commonplace ones. The nature of the Clans is such that if Mechwarrior Ted dreams up a brilliant loadout and makes it public by using it in a batchall, it will be aped across the entirety of the Clans in six months.
almost every clan omni from the nova up has a dual erppc and/or a dual LPL variant so they already pretty much do that :))
-
All those dual ERPPC loadouts save certain omnis from the great suck.
Take the Gargoyle for example. One of the old jokes used to go "what's so great about Ulric Kerensky? He does it in a standard config Gargoyle". Dual LB 5 X... Who's next?
-
On fire . . . you forgot ON FIRE!
-
But that just raises the question of why those weird and troublesome configs are the commonplace ones. The nature of the Clans is such that if Mechwarrior Ted dreams up a brilliant loadout and makes it public by using it in a batchall, it will be aped across the entirety of the Clans in six months.
Obviously cooking these things up in-universe is a lot harder than the grade-school math we have to do to get them on the table.
Search me. When have the Clans ever made any sense anyway.
But doing these complicated mental gymnastics to make a fictional universe behave according to arbitrary real-life game rules and aesthetic values without breaking the consistency of its internal logic is half the fun.
You're out of your mind and asking for disapp... (thinks about my never-ending quest to reconcile FASAnomics) ...fair enough.
Or even something like . . . the Summoner A? Which has two tons of SRM ammo and a single ton of Gauss rifles . . . I would imagine plenty of Falcon mechwarriors browbeat (or maybe literally) their techs into switching out what class ammo was in the 2nd ton.
Nah, consumables are probably lots easier to fiddle.
-
Search me. When have the Clans ever made any sense anyway.
The answer is simple . . . inertia and bureaucratic BS, the reason most things stay around in human endeavors.
As far as the arms on Omnimechs . . . when it can go between a cERLL/ERML in that arm up to a Gauss Rifle or big missile rack, then the housing we see in the art for a 'Prime' is not the dimensions its limited to for that arm.
-
As far as the arms on Omnimechs . . . when it can go between a cERLL/ERML in that arm up to a Gauss Rifle or big missile rack, then the housing we see in the art for a 'Prime' is not the dimensions its limited to for that arm.
Maybe not, but who's to say they didn't try a big ol' external drum magazine for the Gauss rifle (because of the need to go outside that original size envelope) and found out pilots kept bumping it into the side of the chassis and causing the feed system to jam?
-
Anyone who's ever swapped a 390 out for a 402 would know that it takes a hell of a lot more work than just putting in a 428.
Sure. But people do it. and if it's worth the pay off, people will put in the hard work to make it happen.
-
On fire . . . you forgot ON FIRE!
You are correct. I could have plugged that in omni-style. Should have. Dual LB 5X. Ulric Kerensky. ON FIRE 🔥
-
To steer back on topic, I have found the justification for Clan warriors not being able to totally customize their Omnis having to do with status. You have to be a certain status to get assigned to a frontline unit- which usually means you have a Omni, even for the standard mechwarrior. You have to have a certain status to get a Omni as a officer in a secondline/garrison unit- usually bloodnamed/ristar who got sent their from a frontline unit for seasoning at command. You want your personal loadout on your Omni? You need to be of a status that justifies the Clan 'wasting' time to plan the layout, reprogram the gyro settings, load the software for those weapon systems, save that as a data dump to make it easier to load in the future, and then actually load it on the mech.
Instead of master tech Ginger telling go-fer tech Kilroy, "Go switch the load on that Gargoyle from a Prime to a C, we are not facing Hell's Horses this time. And no graffiti stravag!"
Aidan Pryde was allowed to customize his mech before his first trial. We all know what the clans think of old people, but elderly Natasha Kerensky was allowed to customize her mech before her trial of position to even be allowed to continue as a mechwarrior in Clan Wolf. I think there was one other example, but I'm hazy on it.
Same. The omnis that have more limited capabilities have so much more character. The Executioner may be objectively a bad 'Mech, the performance of which can't justify its prevalence in Clan toumans, but it has a lot more flavor than the more generic bag-o-guns designs like the Nova Cat.
The IS mechs are gun-bags as well. There is nothing in the construction/customization rules that stops me from making a Hunchback-4G into a 6/9/6 mover with a heavy Gauss in the left shoulder or twelve machine guns spread across the torsos. A bad refit roll just means it takes longer which might not matter at all, rather than doing anything spectacularly bad.
For just pick-up games, there isn't even that much except the same gentlemen's agreements that dictate people don't field nothing but Hellstars.
MWO I think really took the lazy way out by allowing unrestricted customization and opened the game to being dominated by a very shallow meta. Not to mention shooting themselves in the foot with a business model focused on selling new chassis (or, more cynically, exploiting fan nostalgia for old TRO favorites) that would directly benefit from each chassis being unique.
They could have come up with so much more creative customizing systems by abandoning the TT construction rules and leaving stock configs as-is. The skill tree, as it was finally delivered (not the pointless, grindy placeholder they launched with) showed a lot of promise. If customizing had been centered around taking an existing build and tweaking it (meaningfully, not a 2% bonus here and there) to suit a play style, there would've been room for a wider variety of styles to flourish.
There isn't unlimited customization in MWO. You can't swap out engines on clan mechs while all mechs are limited by hardpoints and hardpoint configuration. Omnis kinda get around the last two since you can run a different variant's arm or torso to get a different set of hardpoints but they have to actually exist in one lore config.
When MWO had their "stock-only" championship, one of the first rules they had to implement was "no duplicate units." Otherwise, teams would have all dropped with nearly-100% all the same stock mechs. As it was, even with the no-duplicate rule, it was like this:
(https://i.redd.it/gpkn5dzix5p11.png)
Every drop, teams had identical (or at least extremely similar) composition because there were only a few decent stock configs for mechs at the highest level of competition.
Anyway, the TT and online competitive gaming aren't really comparable because dudes who play online are absolutely ruthless about finding the best, the fastest, the most damage, etc. They never hold back and what might be a 7.5% cumulative bonus might seem not worth much, but when you reach a breakpoint that (for one example) allows your Deathstrike to fire two full alphas back to back without shutting down, well, that's a helluva bonus.
-
Sure. But people do it. and if it's worth the pay off, people will put in the hard work to make it happen.
And luckily in BattleTech you can do that. Its just sometimes a harder roll to make than others.
-
Every drop, teams had identical (or at least extremely similar) composition because there were only a few decent stock configs for mechs at the highest level of competition.
Like I said, shallow meta. Most players would rather win than have an interesting match, so the onus is on the game designer to make variety happen.
-
Like I said, shallow meta. Most players would rather win than have an interesting match, so the onus is on the game designer to make variety happen.
I was just saying it wasn't customization that caused it, because even without meaningful customization, people see what works and what doesn't. Personally, I prefer the TT system of leaving mechs as raw gun-bags (except for quirks).
Anyway, the Clans are pretty cool to me because their society is actually different and because it is different, it helps with my suspension of disbelief.
-
The pros and cons of MWO is a totally different topic and one I rather skip as it's the leading cause of the MWO Forum being a near constant dumpster fire.
I obviously like the Clans but it will totally be in their nature to one day implode and stop existing. Likewise, how the hell did the Great Houses last so long? Oh, and poor, poor Com Star *snicker* Everybody in the IS is totally self destructive which is great as long as you don't take it too seriously. It would be really boring if the galactic leaders didn't act like idiots running around with scissors. ;)
-
Even though I was introduced to the battletech universe through mechwarrior 2 and the novel Exodus Road, I tend to favor the Great Houses more. I do not dislike the clans but I do believe that the clans have overstayed their welcome in the inner sphere.
They could have gone back to clan space after the great refusal. So the clans could have their own separate section of space while the inner sphere has theirs. I prefer clan vs clan and inner sphere vs inner sphere, for stories and on the table top. With the exception of the clan invasion and great refusal.
-
yeah pretty much...
-
The Great Refusal did nothing to quench the individual clans lust for Terra, it just disbanded the coordinated effort (as much as you can call it that) to push for it.
-
I see the same strange (to me, YMMV) assumption being made in this thread that I’ve seen in every discussion thread regarding the Clans (and this can be applied to every faction, really): people seem to expect that these factions and societies should think and act in the most logical and beneficial ways possible, and that the principles and ideas that they claim to hold are absolutely sacrosanct, and can’t seem to conceive that they can and do fall prey to their own hubris, and change in ways even they couldn’t have predicted when violently thrown into constant contact with other factions and societies that don’t hold their values or play by their rules. Every faction in this game has its own set of ideals that, to varying degrees, are just a veneer over their own naked self-interest. In that respect, BattleTech is no different than the real world: all the players on the board are, on some level, hypocrites, and it’s all just an excuse to kill each other and acquire their stuff.
YMMV.
-
I always thought it would have been more interesting if the invaders made it to Terra, then a refusal war happened between all of them. The Clans basically would beat each other up enough that the Inner Sphere could push them out back to the homeworlds. Imagine being a bunch of failed invaders going back home? It would set up a Wars of Reaving scenario a lot better.
-
I always thought it would have been more interesting if the invaders made it to Terra, then a refusal war happened between all of them. The Clans basically would beat each other up enough that the Inner Sphere could push them out back to the homeworlds. Imagine being a bunch of failed invaders going back home? It would set up a Wars of Reaving scenario a lot better.
That's what coulda (maybe even shoulda) happened after the failure to take Terra by proxy at Tukayyid. Of course TPTB of that time decided they wanted to keep the Clans around instead.
But how cool would it have been for the IS to deal with the fallout of the Clans' invasion after having kicked them out? Sure the Clans are ripe for their existential Wars of Reaving... You'd have the victorious F-C and Combine rushing to reclaim the former OZ, each naturally trying to end up with more than they lost. The two factions are fighting over who first replicates Clan technology, with Marik and Liao trying to steal the same ala Steiner's stealing BattleMech technology in the first place from the Hegemony. And of course Blakists trying to prevent anyone from reverse-engineering Clan tech. With no Operation SCORPION there's no schism in ComStar, so they're still 'good old' ComStar pushing their own agenda that we know ultimately involves nuking the IS to save the IS.
-
From my experience, the folks who do not want to play against (which is not the same as those who do not use) a combined arms approach is b/c they only want to plan to have to face a force of mechs.
I can second this, lucky for my group we all love combined arms
-
That's what coulda (maybe even shoulda) happened after the failure to take Terra by proxy at Tukayyid. Of course TPTB of that time decided they wanted to keep the Clans around instead.
But how cool would it have been for the IS to deal with the fallout of the Clans' invasion after having kicked them out? Sure the Clans are ripe for their existential Wars of Reaving... You'd have the victorious F-C and Combine rushing to reclaim the former OZ, each naturally trying to end up with more than they lost. The two factions are fighting over who first replicates Clan technology, with Marik and Liao trying to steal the same ala Steiner's stealing BattleMech technology in the first place from the Hegemony. And of course Blakists trying to prevent anyone from reverse-engineering Clan tech. With no Operation SCORPION there's no schism in ComStar, so they're still 'good old' ComStar pushing their own agenda that we know ultimately involves nuking the IS to save the IS.
You could even go an alternate route and give them a short lived victory. Have the Clans set up a Star League for a bit... have the Sharks/Foxes handing out tech everywhere. Maybe a few years go by, tensions arise, then a big refusal war happens because they can't agree on how the Star League should be run. The invaders are crippled, the Inner Sphere factions declare a trial of absorption and uses their new Clan tech, showing the invaders just where their superiority truly was. It would be the biggest middle finger to the Clans and Kerensky. You could have the Bears still merge with the FRR, Cats with the DC, still set up the two Wolf factions, send the Falcons packing, and have the Jaguars be killed off as the final blow. The sharks would still be salesman, maybe merge them with Comstar? So yeah, have the Crusader Wolves, Falcons, and Vipers, go back to the homeworlds like... oops, our bad guys.
Like I said, I did like Wars of Reaving, but it felt like it was just there to kill off factions.
-
Clans as a concept are fine unless they do un-clan like things. You almost universally need to have a 3/4 pilot in order for Clans with their tech to stand out. Besides, once we're hitting 3067 the tech bloat leans towards the IS and you're up against a Fafnir with Dual Heavy Gauss.
-
The Clans worked fine as a story element to shake things up. The problem is that after Tukkayid, FASA didn't know what to do with them.
I think the biggest problem with the timeline post-3058 or so is that everyone should have been crapping their pants about the possibility of a renewed invasion. They had a 15 year truce, and there was nothing to indicate that the Clans were getting less dangerous in that time frame. FedCom civil war? Makes no sense. The Lyrans should have been pushing for closer ties, because they need the Davion military machine to help defend themselves against what will surely be a Jade Falcon rampage once the truce expires. Operation Serpent was a secret.
-
One aspect of the Clans that did bug me in a vague sense was the Warden/Crusader divide. For the longest time, something about it didn't quite sit right with me, but I couldn't articulate exactly what until someone else pointed out that the Wardens were sworn to protect the IS from... apparently nothing at all. There were no threats to the IS, except the IS itself. It would have been one thing if they were committed to protecting the IS from the internecine warfare of Great Houses but the Dragoon Compromise and Wolf's Dragoons' actions in the IS were anything but that.
-
One aspect of the Clans that did bug me in a vague sense was the Warden/Crusader divide. For the longest time, something about it didn't quite sit right with me, but I couldn't articulate exactly what until someone else pointed out that the Wardens were sworn to protect the IS from... apparently nothing at all. There were no threats to the IS, except the IS itself. It would have been one thing if they were committed to protecting the IS from the internecine warfare of Great Houses but the Dragoon Compromise and Wolf's Dragoons' actions in the IS were anything but that.
I always assumed that it was an unspoken bit of Warden view that the most likely of hypothetical enemies to IS were the Clans themselves in general and the Crusaders in particular.
-
I always assumed that it was an unspoken bit of Warden view that the most likely of hypothetical enemies to IS were the Clans themselves in general and the Crusaders in particular.
Bingo
-
Do I dislike the Clan's? Not for a very long time.
-
I always assumed that it was an unspoken bit of Warden view that the most likely of hypothetical enemies to IS were the Clans themselves in general and the Crusaders in particular.
My problem with that explanation: a single JumpShip (of which Wardens had plenty) of all the LosTech goodies that the Wardens knew had been lost to the IS would have put them on-par and effectively checkmated any Clan invasion more effectively than anything the Warden clans actually did. Even more so since the Clan Wolf khan (at the point Wolf's Dragoons were still checking in) could have simply told the Dragoons to get cracking on producing improved mechs and tech, along with revealing what they knew of the Clans. Giving the IS a thirty year head's up rather than only starting after Operation Revival would have done better.
-
There's a difference between "Protect the Inner Sphere" and "Help the Inner Sphere protect itself". The Warden Clans were still proud warrior societies who saw the Inner Sphere's inhabitants as fitful children - they wouldn't want to give them tools to further destroy each other, & if & when the time came to defend them, they wanted to do it, not watch the Inner Sphere arise in its own defense, at least not initially.
-
My problem with that explanation: a single JumpShip (of which Wardens had plenty) of all the LosTech goodies that the Wardens knew had been lost to the IS would have put them on-par and effectively checkmated any Clan invasion more effectively than anything the Warden clans actually did. Even more so since the Clan Wolf khan (at the point Wolf's Dragoons were still checking in) could have simply told the Dragoons to get cracking on producing improved mechs and tech, along with revealing what they knew of the Clans. Giving the IS a thirty year head's up rather than only starting after Operation Revival would have done better.
Forgetting the a good chunk of the IS still rather kill each other than unit to fight a common enemy. Better weapons would mean little if the IS faction only pointed them at each other (in fact, that's what what ended up happening anyway)
Honestly, my first hiatus from BT was during the FedCom Civil War when the story was "Forget the Clans, we should be killing each other!"
*actually my hiatus was because I moved, there was no BT players in my area and there was little BT community online at the time but it took me awhile to warm up to Civil War era for multiple reasons. Thank you MW4: Mercs for putting it into prospective for me*
-
On what level?
On the way their tech is better than the sphere's? Not really. They pay for it (Now)
Playing them? I lose a lot, but they can be fun.
Against them my recent record is about par, so meh.
On their culture, as written? Kinda, in a WTF way. Nice place to visit or be boss in, crappy place to live.
For what they did to the game in the early 90's? Yep. Giving power-gamers an easy-button without explicit controls was a bad idea. Giving them default 3/4 pilots was at least as bad.
-
Everyone keeps saying Clan and power gamer like Clan vs Clan games never happen. Sorry you ran into so many jerks back in the day but I personally avoided Clan vs IS game unless it was set up by a third party GM to avoid any regarding fairness.
-
My old group decided to even give bidding a try. We set two Clan players bidding against each other to be the leader of clan vs IS battles. The main thing I took away from it was bidding itself was the equalizer. The IS won more often than not when we did that, mostly due to bidding being fierce.
-
My old group decided to even give bidding a try. We set two Clan players bidding against each other to be the leader of clan vs IS battles. The main thing I took away from it was bidding itself was the equalizer. The IS won more often than not when we did that, mostly due to bidding being fierce.
That's when your doing it right :thumbsup:
-
Sorry I'm late to this party.
It not the Clan society I dislike, though that is some of it. It is them being able to turn their honour on and off. You ether have it or you don't. Then there is the genocidal, sociopathic idiocy.
I think this sums up what I dislike about the Clans. Or, rather, their depiction. MechWarrior 2 dealt with the refusal war. But, instead of keeping things honorable, one of the other leaders decides to take cheap shots at his opponent to ensure a win. Is that how Chistu got into power?
And, he's not the only one. A lot of honor duels, trials of position, and what-not usually have the losing side taking a cheap shot, and the winner not having any qualms about it, though you see other depictions of clans deriding Inner Sphere MechWarriors for similar tactics. I recall something about a warrior going ape about a guy hiding behind a hospital full of people, and he had to blow the building down in order to meet the coward head-on.
I don't dislike the Clans. I find them morbidly fascinating in the same way as Kuritan culture. Wouldn't want to live there, but it's interesting to see how they succeeded in breeding out the vast majority of dissent to the system to the point very, very few people question how things are done. So much so that many warriors took their mentality and projected it on Inner Sphere populations only to be surprised by the strange results.
I also like using them as an equipment upgrade to a star mercenary unit or two. :thumbsup:
But, they did fall prey to the 'villain of the week' treatment, and it shows in the psychotic decisions any of their leaders are making. Something the scientists should have bee breeding out from the get-go. Something adherence to a true honor system would have punished instead of being allowed to fester and grow in an individual.
Just think about where they came from: The Star League Defense Force. If there was any military that would fit an extrapolation of modern Western Military Logic and Science, it was them. I don't know that the source book actually backs it up, but I envision them as being US Marines in robots in space. That's where they came from, a society built from people of that kind of training and, hopefully, gung-ho mentality. Everything for the unit translates to everything for the Clan. No unnecessary Casualties is definitely from the older military doctrine. Precision Strikes and mobility are a big thing in their force decisions.
Then, you add to that a meritocracy where only the best at a job are allowed into it, or it's supposed to be. Free-borns are actually allowed to test into the military ranks, after all. So, in a lot of ways, a person's natural talents don't get wasted, or they're not supposed to.
I'm actually surprised that Warriors, especially Clan Leaders, aren't more involved in the affairs of other castes. If they truly are ubermensh, then they'd get bored with constant drilling, training, and what-not. I'd imagine they'd be drawn to subjects which fascinate them, making for more well-rounded individuals. Aidan Pryde should not have been a rare outlier.
The Clans seem alien because the characters we've seen depicted don't fit their society. The motivations for every clanner I've seen has been too self-centered and doesn't suggest the forward thinking that a true perfect human specimen would be using for people that are, in many respects, geniuses. Even the Elemental soldiers.
They deify Kerensky, who by all indications, was a very well-rounded individual. I'm surprised they don't try to emulate him more, becoming history buffs so that they don't get caught by surprise when someone uses a tactic out of the older books. The fact that they manage to let the scientist and engineering castes continue weapons and tech upgrades does show some foresight.
But, you get well-considered people that are skilled fighters, and they might actually be like-able.
But, when you have to have them as villain-of-the-arc, you can't have that and thus we get Chistu, Vlad Ward, or Lincoln Osis, or Brett Andrews.
So, it's easy to see the Clans as self-absorbed meat-heads. I hate that aspect of them. Otherwise, I find the notions behind their society fascinating, and kinda long for what should have been.
-
Unfortunately it makes all too much sense that the Clans don't follow their own supposed ideals.
There are plenty of cultures that had something resembling a standardized honor code but still had plenty of incidents where what was considered honorable and acceptable was up to individual interpretation and was thus rife with corruption in real life history.
-
It not the Clan society I dislike, though that is some of it. It is them being able to turn their honour on and off. You ether have it or you don't. Then there is the genocidal, sociopathic idiocy.
I think this sums up what I dislike about the Clans. Or, rather, their depiction.
... You guys are familiar with House Kurita, right?
-
... You guys are familiar with House Kurita, right?
That's actually a part of the thematic problem of "The Clans".
We've already got House Kurita. There's no need for House Kurita, But MoreSo.
-
*sigh*
Yeah, lets just have two factions, good guys and bad guys. xp
My point was everybody has bad history in the BTU, war like factions don't tend to be ran by the most well adjusted people. I'm not saying you have to like every faction, just saying that at the end, it comes down to personal preference. Yes, the Clans are nuts, so are every one of the Great House. Oh, and lets not forget about ComStar and their special brand of Koolaid.
-
... You guys are familiar with House Kurita, right?
Oh, I am. FM: Kurita was one of my first source books. The space samurai and shogunate thing was an equally morbid curiosity for me.
Quite frankly, I never really paid much attention to the clans as a faction until more recently, when working on writing fiction for submission to BattleCorps. It's then that I noticed the potential behind their society, and what we were given in fiction.
While some people may not have seen the bad guys in the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, I noticed how Aidan was treated, and what that meant for their society, as depicted, and that spoke 'villains' to me, regardless.
At least with house Kurita, you see a moment of reform and potential change with Theo, generally for the better, even if short-lived.
I honestly can't say I saw that for the Clans as a whole. Maybe a couple of darling favorites, because they stood out.
And, while it would be fun to explore the hows and whys behind such a cultural demise, and if somebody saw it coming, I also yearn to have seen an encounter with the ideal realized and prosperous. After all, you'd be surprised what indoctrination can do to ways of thinking.
And, if you think the Clans don't have a religion, you'd be mistaken. Their god happens to be Kerensky. Actually, both Father Alex and the favored begotten son, Nick. You would think that would have more of an effect on a Clanner's motivation than a fun story and a name to throw around.
So, yeah. That's what I hate about the Clans. Not their number. Not their advanced Tech. Just their depiction in the dramas compared to what they were supposed to be like from the texts.
I'll also throw in my distaste for their under-utilization after Tukkayid, too.
But, I would be remiss if I didn't lament a lot of the insanity pills which got handed out all around. Not just in the clans.
-
And, while it would be fun to explore the hows and whys behind such a cultural demise, and if somebody saw it coming, I also yearn to have seen an encounter with the ideal realized and prosperous. After all, you'd be surprised what indoctrination can do to ways of thinking.
Then either look to set your fics sometime pre-Wolverine, because the Clan "ideal" was not from nearly day one, or in the Jihad, when the Wars of Reaving so tore apart the Clan psyche that the IS Clans willingly helped the IS
-
... You guys are familiar with House Kurita, right?
Oh yes, but this thread is about the clans. Personally most, please note that word, of what I said I could apply to House Kurita.
I just think the Clans are worse. They come back to reestablish the Star League, and, I think, the most that many of them could tell you about it is that Kerensky came from it. No, they came to save the IS from itself by imposing the Clan way for all.
Yes the Houses are trying to do the same, but at least they are honest about it.
-
Just think about where they came from: The Star League Defense Force. If there was any military that would fit an extrapolation of modern Western Military Logic and Science, it was them. I don't know that the source book actually backs it up, but I envision them as being US Marines in robots in space. That's where they came from, a society built from people of that kind of training and, hopefully, gung-ho mentality. Everything for the unit translates to everything for the Clan. No unnecessary Casualties is definitely from the older military doctrine. Precision Strikes and mobility are a big thing in their force decisions.
Then, you add to that a meritocracy where only the best at a job are allowed into it, or it's supposed to be. Free-borns are actually allowed to test into the military ranks, after all. So, in a lot of ways, a person's natural talents don't get wasted, or they're not supposed to.
Interesting point
The Clans might be said to be toxic extrapolations of military culture. Gung-ho mentality taken to its idiotic extreme. A society where Might makes right, with a contempt for the weak and the laws that enable them. Coupled with the "obvious" fact that a Trueborn, the ultimate product of cutting-edge military engineering and science, must be superior to random genetic chance.
-
The Clans were my introduction to Battletech with MW2 and without them (and robot jox) i'd not have gotten into the game. Sure their culture makes no sense and would have collapsed, and there all stuff about them that makes you go 'bwuh!?' but I still like 'em.
-
Forgetting the a good chunk of the IS still rather kill each other than unit to fight a common enemy. Better weapons would mean little if the IS faction only pointed them at each other (in fact, that's what what ended up happening anyway)
It didn't take a united IS to stop the Clan invasion though. It just took roughly a hundred regiments, equipped with decentish mechs and weapons on Tukkayid. They had to turn to ComStar to get a force that large, but the FedCom alone could have managed it, given a multi-decade head start, yes?
There's a difference between "Protect the Inner Sphere" and "Help the Inner Sphere protect itself". The Warden Clans were still proud warrior societies who saw the Inner Sphere's inhabitants as fitful children - they wouldn't want to give them tools to further destroy each other, & if & when the time came to defend them, they wanted to do it, not watch the Inner Sphere arise in its own defense, at least not initially.
Khan Kerlin Ward explicitly tasked the Wolf's Dragoons with the latter. The fiction was just written so they did so at what was nearly the eleventh hour.
Interesting point
The Clans might be said to be toxic extrapolations of military culture. Gung-ho mentality taken to its idiotic extreme. A society where Might makes right, with a contempt for the weak and the laws that enable them. Coupled with the "obvious" fact that a Trueborn, the ultimate product of cutting-edge military engineering and science, must be superior to random genetic chance.
The way of the Clans is completely antithetical to a functioning fighting force in general, let alone a modern military. It's like... I would say a stereotype, but I guess if you had a society of nothing but barracks sailors/Marines then cranked it up to eleven with no adult supervision, it would wind up a lot like the Clans. Having victory in battle being the highest accolade is incompatible with a strict adherence to an honor code. In societies with a strict martial honor code, you find a lot of respect and rewards for a well-fought defeat, more than a tainted victory, which isn't really how the Clans are written.
Nobody gets a bloodname if they lose after owning 20 dudes in the grand melee. Nobody becomes a warrior if, through no fault of their own, they fail their Trial of Position.
I like the Clans because they are silly in a different way than having dukes and barons in space, not because I think it all checks out.
-
The way of the Clans is completely antithetical to a functioning fighting force in general, let alone a modern military. It's like... I would say a stereotype, but I guess if you had a society of nothing but barracks sailors/Marines then cranked it up to eleven with no adult supervision, it would wind up a lot like the Clans. Having victory in battle being the highest accolade is incompatible with a strict adherence to an honor code. In societies with a strict martial honor code, you find a lot of respect and rewards for a well-fought defeat, more than a tainted victory, which isn't really how the Clans are written.
Nobody gets a bloodname if they lose after owning 20 dudes in the grand melee. Nobody becomes a warrior if, through no fault of their own, they fail their Trial of Position.
I like the Clans because they are silly in a different way than having dukes and barons in space, not because I think it all checks out.
Perhaps a better description would be "a toxic extrapolation of *warrior* culture".
The Clans are optimized to produce the finest warriors, not soldiers. The best individual warrior will beat the best individual soldier, but a military unit will beat an equal number of warriors. Which, incidentally, is what happened.Operations Bulldog and Serpent, in particular, were designed from the start to show the epitomes of warrior culture how inferior their culture is to a large, organized military.
-
Khan Kerlin Ward explicitly tasked the Wolf's Dragoons with the latter. The fiction was just written so they did so at what was nearly the eleventh hour.
I doubt Khan Ward's actions were wholly in step with the larger Warden philosophy. If it was, there'd have been no need for the Helm Core: The Wardens would have just handed the IS powers the specs for Clantech equipment!
-
My problem with that explanation: a single JumpShip (of which Wardens had plenty) of all the LosTech goodies that the Wardens knew had been lost to the IS would have put them on-par and effectively checkmated any Clan invasion more effectively than anything the Warden clans actually did. Even more so since the Clan Wolf khan (at the point Wolf's Dragoons were still checking in) could have simply told the Dragoons to get cracking on producing improved mechs and tech, along with revealing what they knew of the Clans. Giving the IS a thirty year head's up rather than only starting after Operation Revival would have done better.
I saw others replied, but I wanted to add my two c-bills to this.
I can see the Warden Philosphy specifically NOT allowing this. It's one thing to Warden by keeping the Crusaders from burning their way to Terra all like Falcons in the Dark Age by trials, clan v clan machinations etc. It's something else entirely to arm the people they're trying to protect to shoot back. The Wolf Dragoon mission likely confirmed the worst fears of the Wardens, that the IS had blown entire worlds away. The last thing they'd want to do is give the kids more matches and gasoline.
Plus, IIRC, the Clans wouldn't know (until the Explorer Corps got captured) about the Fed Com. Even if the Wardens felt that the FC was a sign of the sphere recovering and a new Star League on the horizion I can't picture them shipping weapons to them to defend themselves
-
Even more so since the Clan Wolf khan (at the point Wolf's Dragoons were still checking in) could have simply told the Dragoons to get cracking on producing improved mechs and tech, along with revealing what they knew of the Clans. Giving the IS a thirty year head's up rather than only starting after Operation Revival would have done better.
There are multiple issues I find with this set of ideas. First is the fact that if they were to reveal the existence of the Clans or their advanced technology it gives a solid reason for any interstellar power seize any and all assets of the Dragoons by force. This in turn causes a potential refugee problem from the fallout where small pockets of WD forces could retreat to the home worlds that were ignorant of Kerlin Ward's orders to Jamie Wolf to cease reporting back at all. A mauled returning caravan of WD survivors very likely causes an earlier invasion vote. The only likely outcome of the Wolf Dragoon's voluntarily exposing their own mystique is trouble.
-
Oh, I am. FM: Kurita was one of my first source books. The space samurai and shogunate thing was an equally morbid curiosity for me.
Quite frankly, I never really paid much attention to the clans as a faction until more recently, when working on writing fiction for submission to BattleCorps. It's then that I noticed the potential behind their society, and what we were given in fiction.
While some people may not have seen the bad guys in the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, I noticed how Aidan was treated, and what that meant for their society, as depicted, and that spoke 'villains' to me, regardless.
At least with house Kurita, you see a moment of reform and potential change with Theo, generally for the better, even if short-lived.
I honestly can't say I saw that for the Clans as a whole. Maybe a couple of darling favorites, because they stood out.
And, while it would be fun to explore the hows and whys behind such a cultural demise, and if somebody saw it coming, I also yearn to have seen an encounter with the ideal realized and prosperous. After all, you'd be surprised what indoctrination can do to ways of thinking.
And, if you think the Clans don't have a religion, you'd be mistaken. Their god happens to be Kerensky. Actually, both Father Alex and the favored begotten son, Nick. You would think that would have more of an effect on a Clanner's motivation than a fun story and a name to throw around.
So, yeah. That's what I hate about the Clans. Not their number. Not their advanced Tech. Just their depiction in the dramas compared to what they were supposed to be like from the texts.
I'll also throw in my distaste for their under-utilization after Tukkayid, too.
But, I would be remiss if I didn't lament a lot of the insanity pills which got handed out all around. Not just in the clans.
The cloud cobras various cloisters look at you with disdain for not mentioning they practice various religions 😉
-
There are multiple issues I find with this set of ideas. First is the fact that if they were to reveal the existence of the Clans or their advanced technology it gives a solid reason for any interstellar power seize any and all assets of the Dragoons by force. This in turn causes a potential refugee problem from the fallout where small pockets of WD forces could retreat to the home worlds that were ignorant of Kerlin Ward's orders to Jamie Wolf to cease reporting back at all. A mauled returning caravan of WD survivors very likely causes an earlier invasion vote. The only likely outcome of the Wolf Dragoon's voluntarily exposing their own mystique is trouble.
All the information on how to return to the Clan homeworlds (and even their rendezvous) was wiped from the WD jumpships when they returned to the IS after being given their final orders by Khan Kerlin Ward.
-
All the information on how to return to the Clan homeworlds (and even their rendezvous) was wiped from the WD jumpships when they returned to the IS after being given their final orders by Khan Kerlin Ward.
Surely they´d have at least a general idea of where to go - "forty-ish jumps in *that* general direction" or such, which would get them close enough to the Clan homeworlds to run into Clan patrols.
-
Yeah, just keep heading North till you see a big neon sign ;D
-
Yeah, just keep heading North till you see a big neon sign ;D
No... until the Clan warship blasts you out of space, so that the scientist caste can determine from examining your remains that you´re a survivor of the Dragoons.
-
The way of the Clans is completely antithetical to a functioning fighting force in general, let alone a modern military. It's like... I would say a stereotype, but I guess if you had a society of nothing but barracks sailors/Marines then cranked it up to eleven with no adult supervision, it would wind up a lot like the Clans. Having victory in battle being the highest accolade is incompatible with a strict adherence to an honor code. In societies with a strict martial honor code, you find a lot of respect and rewards for a well-fought defeat, more than a tainted victory, which isn't really how the Clans are written.
Perhaps . . . but since hypocrisy is a human constant, after 200+ years I would easily expect the ideal to be corrupted- since as you point out winning is everything. I can only think of a few societies (or sub-sets) that had a strict martial honor code, and winning was still what was expected though they gave lip service to the honorable defeat. A few examples that spring to mind also dealt with where their system was manipulated to force someone to be defeated by their strict adherence to the rules. We are biologically programmed to favor winning- its how your genes get passed on.
Further, we also have the old aphorism of 'if your not cheating, your not trying.' We are told from the beginning that the Clans are hypocritical just like every other human society. During Phelan's final bloodname trial Conner switched the coins trying to give the advantage to Vlad. Natasha and Ulric caught it, but so did Phelan since she discussed it with him right after the announcement. His position was simple, it did not matter what Vlad or his supporters did to manipulate the trial- Phelan would still win because he was superior. So while you may try to manipulate as many factors in your favor, when it came down to the combat you are expected to win.
Which is a large part of the way to play the Clans against the IS . . . it does not matter if you outnumber me. It does not matter if you outweigh me. It does not matter if you choose the ground. I will still win because I am better than you.
-
Whats to dislike? Their a psychological horror show, a sociological mess, state they exist to protect a society while destroying everything of human value in that society, and somehow manage to successfully conduct a war-as-game at the end of a six month supply line against a 1000-1 numerical disadvantage against a society that at leat likes to pretend their fighting to win, all because their captain-lazor-awesome superposthumans with magic toys, somehow justifying their repulsive inhumanity?
The clans should not be hated, they should be pitied, in much the same way a good guard dog, with a good heart, great training, a loyal spirit, and advanced rabies should be pitied.
And having been pitied, they should have been handled similarly - but the authors and player base were far too enamoured of their magical posthuman rabid dogs for that to happen.
Unfortunately.
-
It's like... I would say a stereotype, but I guess if you had a society of nothing but barracks sailors/Marines then cranked it up to eleven with no adult supervision, it would wind up a lot like the Clans. Having victory in battle being the highest accolade is incompatible with a strict adherence to an honor code.
Yes, that's what I was getting at.
In societies with a strict martial honor code, you find a lot of respect and rewards for a well-fought defeat, more than a tainted victory, which isn't really how the Clans are written.
I can think of at least one similar to the Clans, where a good and honourable death in battle is about the best epitaph available for one on the losing end.
-
I like the Clans and their society for their originality and uniqueness. Unlike most of the Houses and certain Periphery states, the Clans are not another nation or legend from Earth history transposed to the stars. They're not King-Arthur-in-Space (Davion/FedRats). They're not Samurai-in-Space (Kurita/Snakes). They're not the Roman-Empire-in-Space (Marians). They're not a Chinese-Dynasty-in-Space (Liao/Cappies). They're not the Hanseatic-League-in-Space (Steiner/Elsies _and_ the actual BT Hanseatic League!). Etc., etc. Although relatable, I've always thought these BT states and cultures were kind of creatively lazy (probably due to the original game's focus on beer-and-pretzels mechanics) and highly unrealistic.
The Clans, however, are unique to the BT universe and their society has evolved in reaction to their history as written in that universe. I like that originality -- that there is little or nothing of any specific Earth culture in the Clans. And I like that internal consistency between their history and culture. It's not certain, but it is certainly possible that something like the Clans could evolve out of a military society with access to certain futuristic technologies that had undergone the extreme deprivations of two major wars and years of exile in deep space and on foreign worlds. Although the Clans play the role of barbarian invaders in the BT universe, the fact that they have very little in common with the Goths, Mongols, Vikings, or other "barbarian" cultures in Earth's history is a testament to the writers who conceived of and developed the Clans.
Folks say BT is GoT in space. But most of the GoT houses are unique creations with internal histories and logic that borrow only lightly from Earth's various medieval cultures. The Clans (and arguably the Society, Manei Domini, and certain Periphery states) are the only BT societies that achieve the same level of originality as seen in GoT.
I think it is regretful that, since sometime after WoK trilogy and other early Clan novels and sourcebooks, that Clan characters have become ever more extreme, "evil", and cartoonish. But I think this is a symptom of an illness that has affected most BT writing since that time. It's not limited to the Clans. Just as Malvina is a ridiculous black hat compared to the much more nuanced Ulric, Victor was a ridiculous white hat compared to his much more nuanced father Hanse. The BT universe was supposed to be a grey one, with perceptions of good and evil depending on your point-of-view. But the BT universe started to lose that greyness in the FCCW (good Victor versus evil Katherine/Katrina), and it's only accelerated with the Jihad and Dark Ages. The Manei Domini were Machiavellian madmen full of bloodlust. Is it surprising that many Clanners have become the same? I hope someday this trend reverses in the BT universe, but until it does, it won't be limited to the Clans. We should remember that when judging Clan writing going forward.
As for the game and technology levels, careful balancing is still required for tournament play involving Clan versus non-Clan forces. But outside of tournament play, it's not that hard to cripple Clan forces, often with very low-tech means. WoR and the Society showed the way. Infernos and other thermal attacks to reduce their firepower advantage, smoke and fluid guns to reduce their accuracy advantage, and mines and cheap blocking units to reduce their mobility advantage. After that, Clanners are often average but outnumbered units with average to poor armor.
My 2 cents... YMMV.
-
I am a Clan fan. The Clans, love or hate them, were concieved for one reason, and that reason was to fit this game universe.
The Clans are not bred for war. They are bred for a war game.
That's why their society reflects this, they treat war as a game. BattleTech is a war game, and the Clans are a perfect fit for it. The Clans have many fans, and they have those who don't care for them. They elicit a strong reaction either way one takes their existence. TPTB, or were, or have been have done a good job. The Clans have been here a long time now and are not going anywhere anytime soon.
Seyla
-
Perhaps . . . but since hypocrisy is a human constant, after 200+ years I would easily expect the ideal to be corrupted- since as you point out winning is everything. I can only think of a few societies (or sub-sets) that had a strict martial honor code, and winning was still what was expected though they gave lip service to the honorable defeat. A few examples that spring to mind also dealt with where their system was manipulated to force someone to be defeated by their strict adherence to the rules. We are biologically programmed to favor winning- its how your genes get passed on.
I'd disagree here; plenty of historical societies gave a lot more than mere lip service to honorable defeat while aggressively punishing a dishonorable victory, no matter how good it was for them. There were certainly exceptions that flipped those societies on their heads; and once that happened, those rules were gone and no one followed them. But until that point, losing well in those places was imminently more favorable than winning ugly.
I think it is regretful that, since sometime after WoK trilogy and other early Clan novels and sourcebooks, that Clan characters have become ever more extreme, "evil", and cartoonish. But I think this is a symptom of an illness that has affected most BT writing since that time. It's not limited to the Clans. Just as Malvina is a ridiculous black hat compared to the much more nuanced Ulric, Victor was a ridiculous white hat compared to his much more nuanced father Hanse. The BT universe was supposed to be a grey one, with perceptions of good and evil depending on your point-of-view. But the BT universe started to lose that greyness in the FCCW (good Victor versus evil Katherine/Katrina), and it's only accelerated with the Jihad and Dark Ages. The Manei Domini were Machiavellian madmen full of bloodlust. Is it surprising that many Clanners have become the same? I hope someday this trend reverses in the BT universe, but until it does, it won't be limited to the Clans. We should remember that when judging Clan writing going forward.
Alright, this is something of a digression, but I keep seeing people express this sentiment and wonder where it comes from, because it certainly isn't something that is in the books.
The writing in the first few books was entirely upstanding white hats (almost invariably FedCom-aligned or allied) going up against bad guys about as subtle as Snidely Whiplash. It wasn't enough to depict Maximilian Liao as slightly off-kilter or covetous in The Sword and the Dagger -- he also had to be Saturday morning cartoon villain levels of evil, dumb, a terrible boss and bad parent to boot. Oh and the horrible rumors about Hanse that caused Ardan Sortek to break? All those were lies, complete and utter lies, concocted by Liao in a bid to isolate Hanse from his best friend and most trusted advisor.
In the second GDL book, Mercenary's Star, the Kuritans involved weren't just occupying a planet. They were also conducting a brutal counter-insurgency that had to include one of the evil lieutenants picking a kid up with his mech, dropping him afterwards to break his and then stomping on him. Just to drive the point home further, they were also packing women off to 'joyhouses' in the Draconis Combine. You can guess what that's a euphemism for and you can also probably guess the GDL manage to rescue them just in time to prevent such a fate.
How about the Warrior series? The racist guy in Justin Allard's unit? He couldn't just have a lingering hate for Capellans, oh no, he also had to be a false hero who escaped justice only because of reasons. Probably to set him up as the intermediate heel of the series, a man who goes and trains his fellow FedSuns Solaris mechwarriors to disable their ejection seats, so Justin Allard winds up killing all of them. Wow, the good guy actually killed other good guys? What's this? Nuance?
Nah. In the second or third book, when Hanse is informed of Justin Allard going on a FedSuns killing spree in Solaris, it is hastily explained that all of the men he killed were actually scumbags that the Federated Suns "were well rid of." Including aforementioned false hero racist guy.
I could go on (and on and on and on) but I won't. Suffice to say, the early books were raw pulp, all of them.
-
Ah, back in the 80s and early 90s, when it was the Russians, or the Cubans who would shoot up the school (REd Dawn), for they were evil. Now, its different. However, fiction is that, fiction. Many may decry Lord of the Rings becuase the main characters did not die, but it still sells. Why, becuase despite everything else, the good guys won. HArd Work and perseverance won the day. Good triumphed over evil. The fiction takes us away from the everyday when despite everything else, we may not live to see our love ones becuase someone ran a redlight. Or see a loved one die hours after she was working hard in rehab from a broken hip.
-
I like the concept of the Clans. I like that they were introduced to shake up the storyline in a stagnant Inner Sphere trapped in a slow grind to oblivion. But I've never liked the way they were presented or portrayed in the fluff. I haven't read a single Clan novel or fluff piece that didn't portray the Clans as some silly cartoon characters. Stereotyped heroes and villains. Grandstand monologuing and stereotypical behavior. Eyeroll.....
I also don't like the smashed together "noble savages" traditions and tribal schtick. I think it cheapens them as characters.
I'll play with Clan tech and Clan mechs, but I wont waste my hobby or recreational reading time with Clan lore.
-
It's funny how many of the criticisms of the clans in this thread, rephrased, are things that draw me to them.
-
To each their own.
I personally try to dump on anyone's faction after a made a joke at the CapCom expenses that a Confederation fan took it personally and a moderator had to step in after a somewhat heated response to a dumb joke.
Likewise, think everyone here has been critical of every faction in one way or another. Think Hansen's Roughrider is the only mercenary group I can talk about on this forum with someone posting 'marry sue' or 'dirty scoundrels' in response.
-
Are you missing a few negatives in there? ???
-
I don't mind the Clans thematically and there are some I prefer over others. The tech disparity did not seemed to be play tested very well. I have a feeling if you cornered the game designers there are a number of weapons that they would like to give a do-over if given the chance. Some because of the crazy disparity of a 2d6 bell curve (Pulse lasers). Others because of no game viable explanation (ER PPCs).
As for the fiction, its like much of everything else. Some of it's really good, some of it's pretty schlocky. But I'm cool with the Clans as a whole. I would like to see the fiction have a consistent shade of gray however. I felt like it was best in the 3050-3060 era. There were characters in every faction I liked and many I disliked, and that is how it should be.
-
I don't mind the Clans thematically and there are some I prefer over others. The tech disparity did not seemed to be play tested very well. I have a feeling if you cornered the game designers there are a number of weapons that they would like to give a do-over if given the chance. Some because of the crazy disparity of a 2d6 bell curve (Pulse lasers). Others because of no game viable explanation (ER PPCs, Clan LRMs). The crazy thing is with a few tweaks it would be significantly better.
As for the fiction, its like much of everything else. Some of it's really good, some of it's pretty schlocky. But I'm cool with the Clans as a whole. I would like to see the fiction have a consistent shade of gray however. I felt like it was best in the 3050-3060 era. There were characters in every faction I liked and many I disliked, and that is how it should be.
-
Did you like your post so much you had to quote yerself ;) :P
-
Did you like your post so much you had to quote yerself ;) :P
-
Did you like your post so much you had to quote yerself ;) :P
The hallmark of a good author.
-
The way they draw responses, the Clans must be doing it right.
If anything, the Clans were not supposed to have so many fans...
-
Nether was the Word of Blake yet...
The Wobbies are ALWAYS right ;)
::)
-
Nether was the Word of Blake yet...
::)
The WoBlies too. Like the Clans, the same reasons are cited by fans and by detractors for their stance.
Both Clan and WoB factions are over the top at certain points, and both are loved and hated for it.
-
It is fine to dislike a faction or factions in the game. Although when someone flips out and doesn't allow someone to play the game with their gaming group because of a faction they like or dislike it gets a bit absurd.
That has happened to me a few times with battletech and other miniature games.
Just by saying I had a certain faction painted, or that I got into the game from mechwarrior 2, set the neck beards into a rage. Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
Getting upset that a fictional universe has an advancing timeline and plot is silly.
-
It is fine to dislike a faction or factions in the game. Although when someone flips out and doesn't allow someone to play the game with their gaming group because of a faction they like or dislike it gets a bit absurd.
That has happened to me a few times with battletech and other miniature games.
Just by saying I had a certain faction painted, or that I got into the game from mechwarrior 2, set the neck beards into a rage. Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
Getting upset that a fictional universe has an advancing timeline and plot is silly.
Yeah, thats a bit sully.
-
Yeah, keep hearing stories like that and it bothers me.
-
It is fine to dislike a faction or factions in the game. Although when someone flips out and doesn't allow someone to play the game with their gaming group because of a faction they like or dislike it gets a bit absurd.
That has happened to me a few times with battletech and other miniature games.
Just by saying I had a certain faction painted, or that I got into the game from mechwarrior 2, set the neck beards into a rage. Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
Getting upset that a fictional universe has an advancing timeline and plot is silly.
Its incredibly silly.
-
We find the crusade silly and are just designing it as 5th SW (wob vs comstar scism as an excuse for the houses to blast each other to bits, with the clans jumping in for the extra fun), and we are removing the wob extra equipment since we find it silly and went down the drain afterwards anyway. For the clans we dislike them, but when you see them stopped, it is easy to integrate them more in the inner sphere. Just make the Jade Dalton girl marry a Liao Scion and other stuff like that and there you go, with extra houses for the IS.
We play in the preclan period not because we dislike the fiction, but because the extra tech makes our grognard heads spin. And we like the old mechs designs better than most new ones.
-
I think another factor that gives the clans a bad rep is that they're introduction coincided with the first time jump (20 Year Update). I think the number of people that actually like time skips is relatively small.
-
Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
lol You're not a true fan unless you only play less than a 3rd for the game?
You're also not a true fan of oreos unless you only eat the cream and not a true fan of a console unless you only play the game that came bundled with it. ;D
-
lol You're not a true fan unless you only play less than a 3rd for the game?
You're also not a true fan of oreos unless you only eat the cream and not a true fan of a console unless you only play the game that came bundled with it. ;D
You're not a true fan of Gone With The Wind unless you stopped reading when Scarlett marries Hamilton.
You're not a true fan of Microsoft/Apple unless you only use DOS/Apple 1
etc
-
You're not a true fan of Microsoft/Apple unless you only use DOS/Apple 1
etc
Well some of my best memories are of playing the first 3 computer games on a DOS 286 computer in my parents basement.
-
The WoBlies too. Like the Clans, the same reasons are cited by fans and by detractors for their stance.
Both Clan and WoB factions are over the top at certain points, and both are loved and hated for it.
I like the Wobbies, and yet, their Tech base is Inner Sphere, so...easier access to folks to swap things around ;)
-
Did you like your post so much you had to quote yerself.
Apparently. I was on heavy Cold medicine so I blame the drugs.
-
Apparently. I was on heavy Cold medicine so I blame the drugs.
All good...thought it was quite funny myself ;)
-
You're not a true fan of Gone With The Wind unless you stopped reading when Scarlett marries Hamilton.
You're not a true fan of Microsoft/Apple unless you only use DOS/Apple 1
etc
You're not a true pokemon fan unless you only play Red.
-
Hot take: 'No'
-
It is fine to dislike a faction or factions in the game. Although when someone flips out and doesn't allow someone to play the game with their gaming group because of a faction they like or dislike it gets a bit absurd.
That has happened to me a few times with battletech and other miniature games.
Just by saying I had a certain faction painted, or that I got into the game from mechwarrior 2, set the neck beards into a rage. Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
Getting upset that a fictional universe has an advancing timeline and plot is silly.
@Valerius
What rules do they play with? Total warfare, or something older?
Just curious, it would be interesting to know if they're grognards, or full on dinosaur grognards
-
It is fine to dislike a faction or factions in the game. Although when someone flips out and doesn't allow someone to play the game with their gaming group because of a faction they like or dislike it gets a bit absurd.
That has happened to me a few times with battletech and other miniature games.
Just by saying I had a certain faction painted, or that I got into the game from mechwarrior 2, set the neck beards into a rage. Also that I am not a "true fan" because I have interest in anything past 3025.
Getting upset that a fictional universe has an advancing timeline and plot is silly.
It's not having an advancing plot that people object to. I've never heard anyone complain about the fourth succession war or war of 3039. It's the Clans being both a bad story element and a bad game design element that people object to. Star League tech is supposed to be reasonably in balance with succession wars tech with different drawbacks, though people do complain about DHS. Clantech is not. Everyone who played mixed games before BV has horror stories about Clan balance. The honor rules were more honored in the breach than in the upholding, and bidding never worked because you had to have several Clan players, only one of whom got to play Battletech at any given session.
Worse, the way they're depicted romanticizes caste systems, eugenics, and slavery. Under the glitz they make the darkest gray Inner Sphere factions after Amaris and before the Jihad look like shiny examples of goodness and light, but the writers treat them like they're just another gray and not a particularly dark shade.
-
It's not having an advancing plot that people object to. I've never heard anyone complain about the fourth succession war or war of 3039. It's the Clans being both a bad story element and a bad game design element that people object to. Star League tech is supposed to be reasonably in balance with succession wars tech with different drawbacks, though people do complain about DHS. Clantech is not. Everyone who played mixed games before BV has horror stories about Clan balance. The honor rules were more honored in the breach than in the upholding, and bidding never worked because you had to have several Clan players, only one of whom got to play Battletech at any given session.
Worse, the way they're depicted romanticizes caste systems, eugenics, and slavery. Under the glitz they make the darkest gray Inner Sphere factions after Amaris and before the Jihad look like shiny examples of goodness and light, but the writers treat them like they're just another gray and not a particularly dark shade.
The clans added much to this game, they just don't happen to be to everyone's taste. They are a dystopic society taken to differing extremes by different Clans. They were tailored to this game and game universe and fit it well.
Bidding worked for my group because everyone got to play, just that one clan player got to be the leader. Orders were easy to follow because most players would do just about the same thing anyway. Clan attacks are pretty straightforward like that. There's never a need to tell anyone they can't play.
-
@Valerius
What rules do they play with? Total warfare, or something older?
Just curious, it would be interesting to know if they're grognards, or full on dinosaur grognards
I mean, if that’s all it takes, my friends and I still play 3rd ed box set rules. Not too much has changed.
-
Bidding worked for my group because everyone got to play, just that one clan player got to be the leader. Orders were easy to follow because most players would do just about the same thing anyway. Clan attacks are pretty straightforward like that. There's never a need to tell anyone they can't play.
Actually, that worked well....for about 2 weeks, and then the Clan players started collaborating and placing high bids, since they knew they'd get to play anyway. One of them tended to be the leader anyway, and always put in the lowest Clan bid, and two of the others wouldn't play IS at all after the Clans were added, so it was either let them play Clan and deal with the Clans getting nearly equal tonnage to the IS, or have them sit it out and probably quit the group. CV and BV hadn't been created yet, so in desperation we put an absolute limit on Clan bids that they HAD to at least underbid the IS tonnage, but that just meant that they bid 5-10 tons under the IS, and they refused a limit of 2/3 or even 3/4 of IS tonnage, or tonnage discounts for IS vehicles. Since there was no published official guideline, and no willingness NOT to exploit the rules, there was no consensus between the "win at all costs" and the "fair fight" players. It didn't end well in the medium run, and there was no long run when the group broke up over it.
As said, I don't hate the Clans themselves, but the way they were introduced without suitable balance mechanisms created a lot of unnecessary problems. Add a borked game mechanic and some players will inevitably insist on abusing it to the hilt. It was both a good and a terrible move on FASA's part, and the sad part is that the down side could have been heavily reduced or eliminated with a bit more forethought about how this would affect game balance.
-
Worse, the way they're depicted romanticizes caste systems, eugenics, and slavery.
We're playing a game that across all the fiction and the crunch outwardly romanticizes war. You can argue war might not be worse than some of what you pointed to in a few very specific cases, but overall, it's the undisputed champion of human misery and suffering. I certainly don't mind that Battletech does this (it's a game, c'mon) but I personally can't disregard that elephant in the room and then muster up offense at the chimpanzee being a bit feral around the hors d'oeuvres.
-
Actually, that worked well....for about 2 weeks, and then the Clan players started collaborating and placing high bids, since they knew they'd get to play anyway. One of them tended to be the leader anyway, and always put in the lowest Clan bid, and two of the others wouldn't play IS at all after the Clans were added, so it was either let them play Clan and deal with the Clans getting nearly equal tonnage to the IS, or have them sit it out and probably quit the group. CV and BV hadn't been created yet, so in desperation we put an absolute limit on Clan bids that they HAD to at least underbid the IS tonnage, but that just meant that they bid 5-10 tons under the IS, and they refused a limit of 2/3 or even 3/4 of IS tonnage, or tonnage discounts for IS vehicles. Since there was no published official guideline, and no willingness NOT to exploit the rules, there was no consensus between the "win at all costs" and the "fair fight" players. It didn't end well in the medium run, and there was no long run when the group broke up over it.
As said, I don't hate the Clans themselves, but the way they were introduced without suitable balance mechanisms created a lot of unnecessary problems. Add a borked game mechanic and some players will inevitably insist on abusing it to the hilt. It was both a good and a terrible move on FASA's part, and the sad part is that the down side could have been heavily reduced or eliminated with a bit more forethought about how this would affect game balance.
But the bidding is not done by tonnage- the balance of the Tukayyid SB bidding system is pretty solid it just lacks BA for points and Clan vehicles (latter b/c they had not been introduced yet) yet I know tonnage had been the balancing aspect for 3025 though you still had problems like a TBolt was not the equivalent of a JagerMech even if they weighted the same.
Atarlost, dug into the Servitor caste any?
-
But the bidding is not done by tonnage- the balance of the Tukayyid SB bidding system is pretty solid it just lacks BA for
Tukayyid was released in '94, four years after the fact, and not everyone got it - the fact that it contained a balancing system is actually news to me.
I mean, if that’s all it takes, my friends and I still play 3rd ed box set rules. Not too much has changed.
I agree, mostly. I'm still amused for some weird reason.
-
Yeah, I have used it for online groups so the Clan players can make competitive bids between them though it required putting in values for BA & Clan vehs. It worked pretty well for that, the competing bids between Star Colonels met the eyeball test.
As for the timeframe, I was not sure what time frame Kovax was discussing . . . to be honest, I am glad I came to BT through MW2 which means I missed all the problematic time. Does anyone who played the Clans regularly when they came out still play the Clans?
-
To me disliking the clans is sort of like disliking the Orks, eldar, or chaos in Warhammer 40K.
It’s okay to dislike them, but they are foundational to the story of Battletech. 20 years ago they gave the IP the kick in the butt needed to be more then a static raiding game. We were given stakes that gave us every meaningful story since then. With no clans there would be no fed com civil war, no word of blake and jihad, no republic etc.
Just five self important jerkwads trying to kill each other over an empty and meaningless throne
-
@Valerius
What rules do they play with? Total warfare, or something older?
Just curious, it would be interesting to know if they're grognards, or full on dinosaur grognards
I don't remember the ruleset they used. It was around the time that the 25th anniversary box set was released. It's strange because they were talking about how they needed new players then act like that. Now if they actually explained why they don't like the clans, as Atarlost and others on this thread has explained, I would understand that.
At the time I only had access to mechwarrior 2, a few novels,some dark age minis and the cartoon, so I didn't know much about the universe.
-
I'll play against Clan using BV2 and I'll graciously lose to them! I even have a Clan Star or 3 in my collection. It's not the tech I have an issue with, we have house rules balancing tricks to cover that anyway. It's the Clan identity that makes me laugh. I just can't take them seriously (I particularly blame the old cartoon for that low-bar first impression!!)
My friend who plays Clan a lot, portrays his Clans more like martial religious orders (I cough "space marines" around him when he has his Clanners speak with "thees" and "thous"...)
It's the very nature of the Clans that they will be melodramatic and unrealistic to our eyes, and I'm pretty sure that was an intentional design feature in the beginning, I just wish the writers might have given them some depth and nuance in the past 20+ years instead of just jumping whole-hog into the stereotype. Its lazy.
-
I disagree with the need for the clans idea.
The whole IS storyline does not require the clans at all besides as a source for some of the tech (and not much given the helm memory core). They could disappear and the stories could unfold equally well. They are unneeded since their storylines are extremely disconnected from those of the rest of the inner sphere, really. They are parallel elements, not really intertwined with the rest of the big faction storylines. Even the lyrans, the faction more heavily affected by them has heir whole storyline disconnected from the clans except in tangential ways. The southern powers have not even considered them relevant at all for the last century.
The clans were a great idea. The execution for the past 30 real world years... Well, I think we would be better served with them being pushed back and becoming the Oberon confederation #2 at most.
-
And that first time jump left a lot of those IS storylines on the table. Hence the desire for more historical products among the grognards.
-
I'm sure the Clan fans would deny it, but I'm convinced that had there been an Alien invasion instead of a Clan invasion they'd be arguing about how introducing Aliens to the BTU was exactly what BattleTech needed to survive/improved the setting/that's the reason I became a BTech fan etc.
And that's why I can't buy into the argument that introducing the Clans were necessary for BattleTech to grow/survive/etc.
-
Man. I'm sorry you guys played with some douches. Really early on we came to the conclusion that 100 tons Clan / 125 tons new tech inner Sphere / 150 tons 3025 IS was the way to go. The guys I knew that liked the clans had no complaints.
-
I don't know whether or not the Clans were absolutely needed for the game to survive. I just know that Kerensky's exiles were going to return in some form or other, and they have been back for over 25 years of real time. They are here and not going back any time soon. Like their dystopic antics or hate them for it, the Clans are here to stay.
-
I'm grateful for the Clans for shaking things up, and ushering in an era of new tech that ended the stagnant tech and pace of 3025 play. Long live double heat sinks. They don't take away heat management skills, any more than earning more money takes away money management skills. I'm perfectly ok with every facet of clam military tech outpacing the Inner Sphere--it would be hardly believable otherwise. As of 3145, the reality is that Clantech is the baseline, and 'old' Inner Sphere tech is the cheap stuff second raters use, sort of like trotting out a standard AC/5 autocannon in 3050 or later play. (or in 3025 play where any customization was allowed, and an AC/5 was pretty much a deliberate handicap).
Hindsight is 20/20, and is easy to, decades, later, to announce "well, obviously this could have been done better". We could go back and point out flaws in the classic, beloved start to the game that in hindsight we may wish we could make now. But wishful thinking is best saved for its proper use as a Rifleman 3N's rear torso armor.
After a few decades, the most relevant problem (in my personal, very biased opinion) has been taken care of. The number of Clans has been pruned to a more manageable number. I'm hoping we never hear or find out what become of the Clan homeworlds, and I'd be ok if they wiped each other out. I'd be happy with the posy IlClan timeline eventually reducing the Clans jut to that--one IlClan, with two big internal divisions of Warden and Crusader. And maybe make their society a bit more sustainable and less of a horrifically evil military caste society. But outright abusive, freedom crushing government systems have been a staple of many houses since the game started, the Clans aren't really all that shocking in that regard.
-
TRO 3025 came out in 1986. TRO 3050 in 1990. In those four years, we got the 4th Succession War. Not sure how that qualifies as "stagnant", honestly.
-
TRO 3025 came out in 1986. TRO 3050 in 1990. In those four years, we got the 4th Succession War. Not sure how that qualifies as "stagnant", honestly.
Later we got the War of 3039, as well. Plenty of novels too are placed between 3025 and 3050, as well. The only way a "lapse" during that period could even be is if someone bought TRO3025 or the house handbooks, ignored the rest, then later bought 3050 and some clan-centered novels. It's not the publisher's fault.
-
I just double checked... the 20 Year Update was published in 1989. So really, we only had 3 years of pure grognard BattleTech, and the House Books were released in that time (e.g., House Davion in 1988). It seems FASA was in some kind of hurry.
-
I wouldn't say the Clans were absolutely necessary. I could imagine an alternate universe where the Clans never existed or stayed out of the IS.
The big issue of where to carry forward the timeline at that point would be how to prevent the FedCom from total victory and ending the setting by conquering everyone else (or making everyone surrender to a new Star League).
I could see a combination of the FedCom civil war storyline, combined with maybe a more coordinated Concord of Kapteyn equivalent nibbling the FedCom while it is riven by internal conflict. New tech can be introduced on all sides during this time as a product of tech recovery that dribbles out despite Comstar's best efforts (can't expect them to succeed forever). The NAIS can be slowed down by maybe the CC having some luck in technology espionage and sabotage.
So maybe it is Succession War business as usual but I could have lived with that.
-
Just a quick follow up and expansion of what I posted above:
1986: TRO 3025
1987: Kurita, Liao and Steiner House Books
1988: Davion, Marik, Periphery and Star League Books
1989: 20 Year Update
So we got a metric ton of (pretty cool) background material, and were pretty much immediately thrown into the 3050 era with very little time to explore that background. Heck, BattleTechnology magazine was active at the time trying to do some of that exploration.
-
I didn't start playing until 1994. Closes compilation for me was WK's Dark Age and I was perfectly fine with it considering I though the BTU was dead and buried until I started seeing Dark Age stuff everywhere (My apologies to those who supported Fan Pro I had a hell of time finding any of their products at the time)
-
Just a quick follow up and expansion of what I posted above:
1986: TRO 3025
1987: Kurita, Liao and Steiner House Books
1988: Davion, Marik, Periphery and Star League Books
1989: 20 Year Update
So we got a metric ton of (pretty cool) background material, and were pretty much immediately thrown into the 3050 era with very little time to explore that background. Heck, BattleTechnology magazine was active at the time trying to do some of that exploration.
So we got enough stuff to run games as though the Clans never existed.
Coincidentally, we have players in our midsts who run games as though the Clans never existed.
Meanwhile, the Clans exist and plenty of other players enjoy running games as though they do exist. We enjoy the lore and what the Clans bring to the game. As insane as the Clans may seem, they're not any worse than the spheroids. To each their own. This game has something for everyone.
-
If anything, I'd say FASA underestimated the appeal of their original setting.
And I'll echo your point about the game having something for everyone, though I'd add I think it had that before the clans too.
-
There was not Clan Sea Fox, the warrior merchants and wanderers of the star lanes. House Kurita can be compared to some Clans but not all of them.
-
I can't imagine the game without the Timber Wolf and such. Keep in mind I've been playing 3025 games almost exclusively for the past year or so I like to think I can speak without a bias but the Clan machine are some of the most recognizable mechs of the genre.
I should also add, it appears the divide is between those who stated playing in the 80's and those post 89. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like 80's kids arguing with 90's kids and music, we are talking about the same thing but coming from two different places.
-
I started playing a couple before the Clans were introduced. While several players I gamed with didn't like the Clans, I was fascinated by them right away. Over all the years I patiently waited for their devrlpment. I remember well before the unvailing of their home worlds, or waiting to read more about the other Clans aside from the list of names in the WCSB. The developers could have used them even more for my tastes.
-
I can't imagine the game without the Timber Wolf and such. Keep in mind I've been playing 3025 games almost exclusively for the past year or so I like to think I can speak without a bias but the Clan machine are some of the most recognizable mechs of the genre.
I should also add, it appears the divide is between those who stated playing in the 80's and those post 89. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's almost like 80's kids arguing with 90's kids and music, we are talking about the same thing but coming from two different places.
Not necessarily. I'm an 80's kid, played from the first box set, and glad that the game expanded and grew as it did by moving forward, adding new tech and story elements. There may be preferences, but no need to see it as a divide by the majority.
-
TRO 3025 came out in 1986. TRO 3050 in 1990. In those four years, we got the 4th Succession War. Not sure how that qualifies as "stagnant", honestly.
Stagnant was not speaking of the timing of product release. Was speaking more of pace of play, and eventually the story line that would have resulted if we were just stuck with 3025 era tech and units, and just variations of yet another succession war with the same players. Some form of change, some expansion, and increase in the types of tech in the game was needed, and I do not believe the game would have flourished or survived without a game changer coming--and the seeds of that development seem planted from the start.
In any case, we're here now, the Cans are indelibly a part of the game, and a part of its core now, nothing is ever being retconned or written out. Even if there was some hypothetical big time jump forward, a whole new edition of the game, and all of the tech was brought to the same level surpassing even clan tech now, the influence of the Clans on the game will remain.
-
Without the Clans, you could have had a storyline that basically went:
--4th Succession War
--War of 3039
--Gradual tech reintroduction & FedCom
--Hanse preps for grand 5th Succession War to end all wars before he and Melissa are assassinated (ComStar, or evil daughter?)
leading up to...
--3050 ComGuards attack!
Myndo Waterly makes her grab for power and reveals ComStar's treachery. The FedCom is split in two as ComStar forces strike out from Earth and surrounding worlds. The FWL welcomes their new ComStar overlords, with Thomas Marik talking about what a great day this is for the Inner Sphere, and letting ComGuard armies take planets unopposed. This causes strife within the League, as not every nobleman feels the same way. The FWL stands on the brink of civil war.
The Capellans take this opportunity to lash out at the Suns half of the FedCom, while the Kuritans find themselves in an uneasy truce with the Suns and their new First Prince, Victor Steiner Davion. Victor grew up on Tharkad, and it is only chance that left him in Davion space when ComStar attacked. The people of the Suns don't really know their new Prince, but they are left with little choice but to trust him.
The Steiner half is then under the control of Katherine, now calling herself Katrina, Steiner. Her skills as a military commander leave much to be desired, but she calls forward some of the great mercenary units of the Inner Sphere to strike back against ComStar. The Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons, the Gray Death Legion, the Eridani Light Horse, and many others flock to her banner to break the ComStar advance.
Eventually a schism erupts within the Order, with many of the idealists becoming disgusted with the power grab, and breaking off to form a new organization -- the Word of Blake. The WOB seizes control of many HPG stations throughout the Inner Sphere and restore communications to the Great Houses. They vow to return to the old ways of noninterference and secrecy (and spying and quiet assassinations, but they don't say that part very loudly). The rest of Comstar retains control of Terra and everything within 150 light years.
--
There. That's my proposed alternative to the Clan Invasion. You still get an advanced tech enemy striking from surprise. You still get a sudden change in the status quo. You still get somebody to stop the FedCom from dominating everyone else. And you do it with technology that's not that far out of line with what came before.
And still, nobody knows where Wolf's Dragoons got their stuff.
-
Had the Star League in Exile shown up THEN, that'd have been an interesting fun time.
Point to consider, while it may have only been four years between 3025 and 3050, in 1986-88 as they were planning out the future of the game...who had any inkling it would live this long? Games back then came and died, and they were not at all a good way to make long-term cash. Some games did well, most failed; if they were going to get anything to change in the lifespan of the game they might as well do it quick so that the game doesn't simply die on the vine before they get a chance.
Granted, we've got three decades of hindsight to sit back and analyze a "better way" to run the timeline, but at the time they didn't know how long they had or how popular it would be. And that's hardly a failing of theirs; look how many people - including the creator himself - thought that some shlocky movie back in '77 was going to be a one-and-done affair...
-
And that's hardly a failing of theirs; look how many people - including the creator himself - thought that some shlocky movie back in '77 was going to be a one-and-done affair...
And yet here we are today, still living in the shadow of Smokey and the Bandit.
-
And yet here we are today, still living in the shadow of Smokey and the Bandit.
Got a long way to go and a short time to get there.
-
I'm glad for the Clans continued existence, involvement, and evolution. We now have a Wolf Empire, we have the Bears fused with Rasalhague in harmony. We have a Raven Alliance, and the Sharkfoxes swimming everywhere. The Falcons own a sprawling swath of worlds, and Terra corrupts their soul still as it corrupts every clan with greed and need to dominate. And those quiet Homies, just sitting out there in the dark reforging the Unity. (Sorry, reading Revival Trials again.)
The game needed these elements. What did we have before? Davion beats on Liao. Then Davion beats on Kurita. Then Davion beats on Liao again. The Steiners decide to marry Davion.
Not a lot of excitement there, though what do I know? I just think the Clans were a good addition to this game.
-
Without the Clans, you could have had a storyline that basically went:
--4th Succession War
--War of 3039
--Gradual tech reintroduction & FedCom
--Hanse preps for grand 5th Succession War to end all wars before he and Melissa are assassinated (ComStar, or evil daughter?)
leading up to...
--3050 ComGuards attack!
Myndo Waterly makes her grab for power and reveals ComStar's treachery. The FedCom is split in two as ComStar forces strike out from Earth and surrounding worlds. The FWL welcomes their new ComStar overlords, with Thomas Marik talking about what a great day this is for the Inner Sphere, and letting ComGuard armies take planets unopposed. This causes strife within the League, as not every nobleman feels the same way. The FWL stands on the brink of civil war.
The Capellans take this opportunity to lash out at the Suns half of the FedCom, while the Kuritans find themselves in an uneasy truce with the Suns and their new First Prince, Victor Steiner Davion. Victor grew up on Tharkad, and it is only chance that left him in Davion space when ComStar attacked. The people of the Suns don't really know their new Prince, but they are left with little choice but to trust him.
The Steiner half is then under the control of Katherine, now calling herself Katrina, Steiner. Her skills as a military commander leave much to be desired, but she calls forward some of the great mercenary units of the Inner Sphere to strike back against ComStar. The Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons, the Gray Death Legion, the Eridani Light Horse, and many others flock to her banner to break the ComStar advance.
Eventually a schism erupts within the Order, with many of the idealists becoming disgusted with the power grab, and breaking off to form a new organization -- the Word of Blake. The WOB seizes control of many HPG stations throughout the Inner Sphere and restore communications to the Great Houses. They vow to return to the old ways of noninterference and secrecy (and spying and quiet assassinations, but they don't say that part very loudly). The rest of Comstar retains control of Terra and everything within 150 light years.
--
There. That's my proposed alternative to the Clan Invasion. You still get an advanced tech enemy striking from surprise. You still get a sudden change in the status quo. You still get somebody to stop the FedCom from dominating everyone else. And you do it with technology that's not that far out of line with what came before.
And still, nobody knows where Wolf's Dragoons got their stuff.
Cool AU. :thumbsup:
Mine has Hanse sending Kathrine off to marry Hohiro to secure a nonaggression treaty to recreate the Star League. Then in 3050 he moves to finish off the Capellans. Comstar tries to stop them by giving the remaining Capellans and FWL their recovered lost tech and in 3060 unleashing the ComGuards. With the tide turning against the FedCom and Kuritans the SL in Exile returns. But on who's side?
Had the Star League in Exile shown up THEN, that'd have been an interesting fun time.
With Wolf's Dragoons working for the Star Leage in Exile?
I didn't mind the Clans as they brought more tech to play with and answered, "What happened to the SLDF?". Tech aside, some Clans I liked and some I didn't. Just like the rest of the Inner Sphere. I liked some more than others. Even among individual Clans/Houses there were things I liked and things I didn't. As far as things to dislike, its what came after the clans that I don't like. I like the tech but not the FedCom Civil War, Jihad, Republic and Dark Age.
I also think the Clans comeing back to the Inner Sphere would have happened eventually. Even if its just survivors from their own Civil War/Reavings some would have come back.
-
Wistful repost ...
I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.
Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along… really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.
-- Randall
-
I wasn't a big fan of the WofB and the Jihad and all their improvements it seemed like they were getting all the cool stuff.
Im sure people had that same issue when the Clans were released.
-
I wished that all of the houses got invaded (All the Clans surround the IS, and then invade).
-
I wished that all of the houses got invaded (All the Clans surround the IS, and then invade).
That as well
-
I wished that all of the houses got invaded (All the Clans surround the IS, and then invade).
I wonder if they would of made it to Terra if they came in form the other way/??
-
I'm sure the Clan fans would deny it, but I'm convinced that had there been an Alien invasion instead of a Clan invasion they'd be arguing about how introducing Aliens to the BTU was exactly what BattleTech needed to survive/improved the setting/that's the reason I became a BTech fan etc.
And that's why I can't buy into the argument that introducing the Clans were necessary for BattleTech to grow/survive/etc.
For my money, no. I hate aliens and their portrayal in almost all scifi works. Bit of a speciesist really. If the clans were the same as we know them, but aliens rather than descended of humanity, for all the things I love about the clans, i'd outright refuse to touch them. The fact that we finally get a warrior culture ripe with unusual customs that aren't some rubber forehead, tentacle monster, or evil robot, is a big part of why I love the Clans.
-
Besides, the Clans are close enough to being aliens. If players wanted aliens, we have the Clans.
-
I wonder if they would of made it to Terra if they came in form the other way/??
Don't know, however if the IS was surrounded then there would be more Clans into play and the previous House frontlines won't get reinforcements/support from the other side of the IS.
-
For my money, no. I hate aliens and their portrayal in almost all scifi works. Bit of a speciesist really. If the clans were the same as we know them, but aliens rather than descended of humanity, for all the things I love about the clans, i'd outright refuse to touch them. The fact that we finally get a warrior culture ripe with unusual customs that aren't some rubber forehead, tentacle monster, or evil robot, is a big part of why I love the Clans.
We already had a warrior culture ripe with unusual customs that weren't aliens. We had a bunch, actually: Space Neo-Samurai, Warrior Houses, Lyran Mercenary Idealism, hell that's all before the class of Mechwarrior Families (many of which are descending from the SLDF) that were integral to all 5 empires of the Inner Sphere.
Mashing up Spartans and Mongolians with Communism didn't give us anything but exactly that. Which, granted, is a pretty unique thing for the BTU to have contributed to sci-fi fandom, but they were hardly the first non-alien warrior culture with flavorful hooks.
Besides, the Clans are close enough to being aliens. If players wanted aliens, we have the Clans.
Largely my point. Every damage or danger of introducing Aliens to the setting has already been done by adding the Clans. Because we have introduced the Clans, there's really no reason to avoid jumping the shark. We've already jumped the shark.
-
@TDC - the above post is kinda self-contradictory. On the one hand, the Clans are described as a human warrior culture (albeit with unusual customs) similar to pre-existing factions. On the other, they are said to already be "shark jumping" enough to be BT's aliens. This cannot be; they are either unusual enough to be "shark jumpingly" alien, or they are gussied up riffs off a familiar theme already present in the universe.
IMO I think the Clans are nowhere near contrasting enough to be really alien; a really BT alien would have (lorewise) utterly inhuman origins, form, language, etc and have totally different technology eg nanotech, hyperdrives, bio-organic tech, etc rather than just more advanced forms of human tech; and (ruleswise) might employ totally different weapons, movement and damage profile and indeed some other kind of primary unit other than a Mech.
IMO what someone posted above is right; the Clans are one of the most unique contributions of BT to science fiction (such as it is) and grew relatively organically out of a planned plot development to push the game out of Level 1 tech. They deserve recognition for that at least.
-
I wasn't saying "the Clans are as alien as aliens, hence why don't we just also have aliens since we already have the Clans."
I was saying that we've already taken a workable setting (the Succession Wars wracked Inner Sphere), and instead of developing new units/tech/factions out of that existing foundation we pulled new stuff quite literally out of nowhere. FASA didn't just add tech and factions, the particular tech and factions (doesn't matter that it was the Clans as the platform) they added altered the character of the setting. And since it was done once already; doing it again wouldn't be as bad as doing it the first time.
-
And I'm saying, nuh uh, the Clans weren't hardly alien enough for that. Doing aliens for reals would be totally off kilter in a quite unprecedented manner
(Though an argument might be made for Clix...)
-
And I'm saying, nuh uh, the Clans weren't hardly alien enough for that. Doing aliens for reals would be totally off kilter in a quite unprecedented manner
(Though an argument might be made for Clix...)
Fair enough. Since we're discussing something that's fundamentally opinion, we'll ultimately agree to disagree.
-
Fair enough. Since we're discussing something that's fundamentally opinion, we'll ultimately agree to disagree.
Well the basis for my saying so is as above; the Clans are still human rather than eg tentacle beasties and use LRMs lasers and autocannon rather than eg phasers, quantum torpedoes and technorganic acid-aphid projectiles, sort of fing...
-
I wished that all of the houses got invaded (All the Clans surround the IS, and then invade).
It's be interesting but a lot harder to coordinate, especially since some clans would have to fight their way through the Periphery Realms before getting to the Inner Sphere.
For my money, no. I hate aliens and their portrayal in almost all scifi works. Bit of a speciesist really. If the clans were the same as we know them, but aliens rather than descended of humanity, for all the things I love about the clans, i'd outright refuse to touch them. The fact that we finally get a warrior culture ripe with unusual customs that aren't some rubber forehead, tentacle monster, or evil robot, is a big part of why I love the Clans.
I'm still waiting for the Tetatae invasion. ;D
IMO I think the Clans are nowhere near contrasting enough to be really alien; a really BT alien would have (lorewise) utterly inhuman origins, form, language, etc and have totally different technology eg nanotech, hyperdrives, bio-organic tech, etc rather than just more advanced forms of human tech; and (ruleswise) might employ totally different weapons, movement and damage profile and indeed some other kind of primary unit other than a Mech.
I also don't think Alien tech should be too different from normal. More efficient, less efficient, different, but not universe breaking. If the universe doesn't have hyperdrives Aliens wouldn't either. The better, worse, or equivalent to KF Drives, yes, but not Hyperdrives. That doesn't mean they can't be bizzare though. Like Mech scale autoloading crossbows or mountable catipults, or Mechs with better lifting capacity or fully functioning heavy and Quad LAMs or they made the boondoggle vehicles actually work. But drivable trees, firing explosive pinecones, and acid squiting flowers. Don't think so. Might be fun but not Battletech.
-
Meant to post this last night but champagne proved a distraction :beer:
The return of the SLDF has been part of the background story at least since the first novels. It's referenced in virtually all of them. Each of the Great House governments were curious(& suspicious) about the origins of Wolf's Dragoons. It could even be argued that only Successor lord who treated them intelligently was Max Liao (hire them, then make them your contribution to the forces of a rebel in one of your neighbour's realms). The graphic novel involving the Black Widows on New Delos (Spider & the Wolf???) has Primus Julian Tiepolo being disturbed by Natasha Kerensky,s surname. And really, from the point of view of the Clan's sending a covert intelligence gathering mission sending someone with that name seems...counter-intuitive.
In spite of things like this, the return of the SLDF had become mythology among the people of the Successor States. They looked back on the Star League as a Golden Age, like Camelot, and the SLDF as Knights in shining armor (the Periphery nations have a different view of course).
So when the Clans arrived there were not a lot of people saying `Aha - this must be the SLDf returning.' Anastasius Focht thought they might be aliens who had consumed the SLDF somewhere out in deep space. It took a direct statement from Jaime Wolf to convince Romano Liao that the Clans were indeed the descendants of the SLDF - and that they felt they had the right to resume ruling the Inner Sphere.
So as story lines go the Clans sort of fit a classic mold.
I don't really dislike the Clans. I do think they were overpowering when first introduced, but there was a balancing mechanism in the bidding process. The problem is with the way players reacted. I found that it was difficult, or impossible, to get most players to adopt the necessary role playing into what is after all a table top game. Players fell in love with the tech, not so much with the culture. It was a major failing that the novels & TPTB at the time didn't expend more effort to make clear what the balancing requirement for playing Clan had to be.
-
We already had a warrior culture ripe with unusual customs that weren't aliens. We had a bunch, actually: Space Neo-Samurai, Warrior Houses, Lyran Mercenary Idealism, hell that's all before the class of Mechwarrior Families (many of which are descending from the SLDF) that were integral to all 5 empires of the Inner Sphere.
Well, it's a wargame, everybody's going to have some degree. But none of these quite take it to the extreme the clans do. And in that difference of measure, lies all of the importance to me. If I think my Star Captain is a dingus, and I have had enough of his surat excrement, I can throw down and demand he face me in the circle. I may even walk out of it with his command. I doubt I'd get away with that in the Combine. The combine also hasn't loopholed death the way the clans have. Nor do they manufacture warriors.
Mashing up Spartans and Mongolians with Communism didn't give us anything but exactly that. Which, granted, is a pretty unique thing for the BTU to have contributed to sci-fi fandom, but they were hardly the first non-alien warrior culture with flavorful hooks.
Well, I'm unaware of any of these other non-alien warrior cultures with similar flavor to the clans. I'd be interested in some examples, I feel as if I'm missing out.
Wait, no. "Non-Alien" isn't right. I want Human scifi warrior cultures.
Largely my point. Every damage or danger of introducing Aliens to the setting has already been done by adding the Clans. Because we have introduced the Clans, there's really no reason to avoid jumping the shark. We've already jumped the shark.
Not ALL of them. There remains, at the very least, those of us who simply have a distaste for scifi that involves and or focuses on Alien races. The clans, for how strange they are, remain human beings.
I've long believed though, that there should be more than one continuity for battletech, and that there ought to be one with aliens for people who long for that.
-
Well, I'm unaware of any of these other non-alien warrior cultures with similar flavor to the clans. I'd be interested in some examples, I feel as if I'm missing out.
Robot Jox (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102800/?ref_=nv_sr_1). The plot revolves around genetically bred mecha pilots conducting a Trial of Possession (for Alaska). And they even have Greek naming conventions.
It's inadvertently a perfect Clan-centric BattleTech movie. And that speaks volumes for how not-original the Clans really are, when it comes down to brass tacks :)
-
Ya can't win. Depending who you ask the Clans are either too unrealistic or too unoriginal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat).
-
Ya can't win. Depending who you ask the Clans are either too unrealistic or too unoriginal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_combat).
It's not that they're unoriginal. Hell, there aren't any original ideas in the IS, either.
I was saying the Clans' unoriginality clashes with the established unoriginality of the Inner Sphere. Jumping the Shark was going from Game of Thrones in Space to Inner Sphere Aflame. (Hell, the Jihad would have been jumping the shark, even if the Clans never were introduced)
-
Well, I'm unaware of any of these other non-alien warrior cultures with similar flavor to the clans. I'd be interested in some examples, I feel as if I'm missing out.
I'm pretty sure Ancient Sparta and Greece was a strong influence on the Clan writers.
(Crude) genetic breeding? check
Youth military training cohorts? check
The eponymous "Spartan" frugal lifestyle? check
Weird sexual hangups? check
including intra-unit fraternisation as esprit de corps builder? check
Society headed by professional warriors over an indentured worker caste? check
Killing a member of the lower caste as a completion of training ritual? check
Culture of honour above all, even to the point(lessness) of death? check
Sacred meeting ground where all tribes may gather regardless of ongoing conflict? check
It's not very un-obvious where the writers were aiming at, I think...
And this is possibly a lucky hit, being relatively obscure knowledge, but the classical Greek way of battle? Agreed-upon Trials where two bands of hoplites have a tug push-of-war on some agreed-upon battlefield, and the loser submitted to the winner rather than go through all that besieging-city-total-war hoopla. Check.
p.s. nominally democratic leadership by a council of voting elders? check
nomination by vote of a general-king to lead the nation in times of war? check
eligibility of entry to warrior caste restricted by ancestral heritage? check
-
a few more off the top of my head:
Sparta's Diarchy: Khan and saKhan.
Agoge: Sibko
Syssitia: Bloodhouse
-
I found that it was difficult, or impossible, to get most players to adopt the necessary role playing into what is after all a table top game. Players fell in love with the tech, not so much with the culture.
That's the sort of thing that frustrated me most about the Clans. The 'straight upgrade' everything they use is the sort of thing that, straight-up, attracts power gamers. Having a unit that you can take in abundance (When not using balancing rules that work) that is just straight-up better on a one-to-one basis is just asking for issues. Especially when you have Clantech as high-tier as Ultra AC/20s when the IS is running around with Ultra AC/5s; 7 damage ER Medium Lasers compared to your 8 Damage Large Lasers. Oh, and everything they have has either the same or more range than anything the IS fields.
I *hate* the fact there is literally no negative tradeoff for anything Clans use, in terms of raw gameplay, except for on the RAC-2 and RAC-5. And even then, it's a crit slot drawback-they still have massive range compared to the IS versions. I feel like they should've made the tech base an actual 'new' techbase instead of just have it being a techbase where literally every last thing is better.
I've long believed though, that there should be more than one continuity for battletech, and that there ought to be one with aliens for people who long for that.
I agree with that, to a point.
-
Well the basis for my saying so is as above; the Clans are still human rather than eg tentacle beasties and use LRMs lasers and autocannon rather than eg phasers, quantum torpedoes and technorganic acid-aphid projectiles, sort of fing...
Nobody said aliens have to be tentacle beasts. They might just have blue skin and be defeated by the power of music.
-
Nobody said aliens have to be tentacle beasts. They might just have blue skin and be defeated by the power of music.
Fits with some of the unseen mechs 😉
-
Nobody said aliens have to be tentacle beasts. They might just have blue skin and be defeated by the power of music culture
Anyway I was referring to this:
...rubber forehead, tentacle monster, or evil robot...
Which kind of sums up the usual alien tropes pretty well.
-
Which kind of sums up the usual alien tropes pretty well.
How about alien birds with rocket launchers?
-
How about alien birds with rocket launchers?
They do not exist and hence we do not talk about them. Stay where you are, Mr Anderson. We will be visiting you shortly.
Filed under "rubber forehead", for being bipedal, having 2 manipulatory limbs, and employing humanoid-configured weapons
-
Eh, form follows function . . . if you are going to be a tool user you need something to grab the tool which means bi-pedal or a quadruped like a centaur. A missile launcher that a biped can carry will look like a . . . missile launcher a biped can carry.
But this has gone rather far afield.
-
Well, the problem with visualizing alien weapons is that we're not aliens, and we've never met aliens, so we don't really know what's practical for them. So you're left with just human style technology with some stylistic variation. It's tough to create something the reader will recognize as technology, that is also different from anything humans have ever created.
So the Clans just took Inner Sphere tech and bumped it up a couple notches. I don't have a problem with that aspect of the Clans. I don't even have a problem with the woefully unbalanced technology (everybody I knew just decided to do Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS fights). My beef with how they were handled is that they were introduced as an apocalyptic force, and then later nerfed so badly in the fiction (emphasizing their lack of numbers and inability to ever really conquer the Inner Sphere) that the original threat no longer made any sense. Why would the Wardens care if the Crusaders wanted to run off and attack the Inner Sphere if they were just going to splatter like Wile E. Coyote running into the side of a mountain? Makes no sense.
-
Yeah, the 26 PGCs the Wolves whistled up for a garrison force (and a minor note) and the other Invaders copied DOES tend to make one think that five or six galaxies of garrison troops were not a significant force.
-
So the Clans just took Inner Sphere tech and bumped it up a couple notches. I don't have a problem with that aspect of the Clans. I don't even have a problem with the woefully unbalanced technology (everybody I knew just decided to do Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS fights). My beef with how they were handled is that they were introduced as an apocalyptic force, and then later nerfed so badly in the fiction (emphasizing their lack of numbers and inability to ever really conquer the Inner Sphere) that the original threat no longer made any sense. Why would the Wardens care if the Crusaders wanted to run off and attack the Inner Sphere if they were just going to splatter like Wile E. Coyote running into the side of a mountain? Makes no sense.
The Wardens knew that the Crusaders could do a ****** ton of damage before they failed, and they actually were looking to save the lives of spheroids and clanners alike. Not to mention the staying hidden part. If the Crusaders run off to invade, it's only a matter of time before the Spheroids figure out where they came from.
-
The Wardens knew that the Crusaders could do a ****** ton of damage before they failed, and they actually were looking to save the lives of spheroids and clanners alike. Not to mention the staying hidden part. If the Crusaders run off to invade, it's only a matter of time before the Spheroids figure out where they came from.
1) You’re missing the point. Taking the Clans from an existential threat and turning them into dummies who never had a chance is a 180 degree turn, and it is bad storytelling.
2) Your explanation is not what the Wardens themselves said or thought. The entire reason for the Wolves joining in the Invasion was because they didn’t want the Falcons or the Jaguars to be the ones to take Terra. There was no thought in their minds that the Crusaders might fail.
-
1) You’re missing the point. Taking the Clans from an existential threat and turning them into dummies who never had a chance is a 180 degree turn, and it is bad storytelling.
2) Your explanation is not what the Wardens themselves said or thought. The entire reason for the Wolves joining in the Invasion was because they didn’t want the Falcons or the Jaguars to be the ones to take Terra. There was no thought in their minds that the Crusaders might fail.
I don't see how the Clans were turned into dummies who never had a chance. They may have been that right from the start without realizing it.
Except the Wardens knew. I was just reading Revival Trials, and that indicated the Star Adders also knew. It was going to take a lot more than Crusader gung-hoedness. The Adders knew the invasion was doomed to failure, and the text indicates they would make sure it failed. So who are the dummies?
And as for what the Wardens said... The Wardens may not have directly said they were saving lives, but if they had their way, thats exactly what would have happened. The Wardens wanted to protect the IS, and that's what they were doing.
The Wolves joined the invasion because they were made to. They were nominated and no other Clan balked at the Wolves being present. Because the Kerensky blood heritage alone that was decided and multiple sources confirm that. I'm sure being there to stymie the Falcons was on their mind, but the Wolves were not given a choice. Everyone else had to fight to secure their place in the invasion.
-
I don't see how the Clans were turned into dummies who never had a chance. They may have been that right from the start without realizing it.
Except the Wardens knew. I was just reading Revival Trials, and that indicated the Star Adders also knew. It was going to take a lot more than Crusader gung-hoedness. The Adders knew the invasion was doomed to failure, and the text indicates they would make sure it failed. So who are the dummies?
Some star adders knew. The majority of the various factions that identified as warden probably expected the sphere to collapse like a wet cardboard box.
I'm unaware they did anything to actively sabotage the invasion while it was happening, just that they took steps to ensure they were top of the heap after everything shook out.
-
Some star adders knew. The majority of the various factions that identified as warden probably expected the sphere to collapse like a wet cardboard box.
I'm unaware they did anything to actively sabotage the invasion while it was happening, just that they took steps to ensure they were top of the heap after everything shook out.
Cassius N'Buta thought it right at the end of the fiction section. It's an interesting thought that he and his allies may have manipulated events in the homeworlds to make things harder on the invaders. Perhaps he stirred the pot of the lesser crusaders, for example, setting them against the invaders and further explaining their antics as described in the novels.
-
I'm glad for the Clans continued existence, involvement, and evolution. We now have a Wolf Empire, we have the Bears fused with Rasalhague in harmony. We have a Raven Alliance, and the Sharkfoxes swimming everywhere. The Falcons own a sprawling swath of worlds, and Terra corrupts their soul still as it corrupts every clan with greed and need to dominate. And those quiet Homies, just sitting out there in the dark reforging the Unity. (Sorry, reading Revival Trials again.)
Makes the great houses seem positively static in comparison.
-
I don't see how the Clans were turned into dummies who never had a chance. They may have been that right from the start without realizing it.
Except the Wardens knew. I was just reading Revival Trials, and that indicated the Star Adders also knew. It was going to take a lot more than Crusader gung-hoedness. The Adders knew the invasion was doomed to failure, and the text indicates they would make sure it failed. So who are the dummies
You’re talking about something written almost 25 years after the fact. This is exactly what I mean when I say they were handled badly. 1990: Clan Invasion is a terrifying attack that the Inner Sphere only stops because a Star League army appears out of nowhere. 2014: Invasion was doomed before it ever began. Crap writing.
-
Some star adders knew. The majority of the various factions that identified as warden probably expected the sphere to collapse like a wet cardboard box.
Well, that is pretty much what happened until they took the 1 year vacation when Gengis Khan died, right? those massive swathes of penetration tell you something. They do not make any sense when you look at the travel times of the BT universe, but it is there: The IS *did* collapse in front of them. For a time. Once you lose your tempo and allow your opponents to reorganize, well, things get trickier.
-
You’re talking about something written almost 25 years after the fact. This is exactly what I mean when I say they were handled badly. 1990: Clan Invasion is a terrifying attack that the Inner Sphere only stops because a Star League army appears out of nowhere. 2014: Invasion was doomed before it ever began. Crap writing.
The Clan invasion was doomed before it started because of numbers. They never had the numbers to keep the whole IS tamped down. Maybe if all the Clans were employed, as the Star Adder Khan suggests in Revival Trials. But that didn't happen.
Sure. The Clans were scary for a year or two, no one in the IS had seen anything like them. What they didn't know was how few the Clans actually are. They don't have the numbers.
Say what you want about the writing, we're all still here discussing it all these years later...
-
There are parallels between Operation Revival and Operation Barbarossa, shock and awe only gets you so far.
-
There are parallels between Operation Revival and Operation Barbarossa, shock and awe only gets you so far.
There's something to be said for this logic. :thumbsup:
-
You’re talking about something written almost 25 years after the fact. This is exactly what I mean when I say they were handled badly. 1990: Clan Invasion is a terrifying attack that the Inner Sphere only stops because a Star League army appears out of nowhere. 2014: Invasion was doomed before it ever began. Crap writing.
Yeah, all this chortling at the Clans/Crusaders is most definitely something that morphed into being over time.
Back in the day, at a convention (I think) someone had asked Stackpole if the Clans hadn't lost at Tukayyid, would they have taken Terra ... and his answer was an emphatic 'Oh yeah'.
-
But could they hold Terra? Or subdue the rest of the Inner Sphere? Think of the numbers of galaxies in FM Warden Clans and FM Crusader Clans. Even with the vipers and cats added, there's too much real estate to cover.
-
You’re talking about something written almost 25 years after the fact. This is exactly what I mean when I say they were handled badly. 1990: Clan Invasion is a terrifying attack that the Inner Sphere only stops because a Star League army appears out of nowhere. 2014: Invasion was doomed before it ever began. Crap writing.
The Clans (and lots of other things) were handled badly I agree. But in this particular case we know the Clans have always been the fall guy and "doomed before it ever began".
Just like right now. Does anyone think the ilClan is going to be the ilClan for long? Yeah, I don't.
-
Except for the US and URSS entering the war, the Nazis would like to disagree a lot about the fact that they had lost before it began. Just have the FWL and Capellans reach an agreement with them and there we go with the Lyran and FRR absorption (and a weird Davion-Kurita alliance).
There weren't many Mongols either, around 250.000 at most (most strengths for campaigns I can find in a 3 minute search say 100-150k per campaign). they conquered a lot of larger and more populous territories, including China.
Wars of attrition are horrible for this kind of forces, but lightning wars? Go for it. It would have been nice to see the Lyrans or DC disappear to be substituted by an ilKhanate power and the other IS powers accommodating the new faction. that, or the Clans being beaten back to the periphery. Either option would be better than the current situation IMO.
Cheers,
Xavi
-
Yeah, all this chortling at the Clans/Crusaders is most definitely something that morphed into being over time.
Back in the day, at a convention (I think) someone had asked Stackpole if the Clans hadn't lost at Tukayyid, would they have taken Terra ... and his answer was an emphatic 'Oh yeah'.
Well, one thing that likely changed over the intervening years is that more and more of the player base and staff came to be aware of a branch of military science called ‘logistics’. Or for that matter, strategy. Or maybe math.
The Clan Invasion amounts (in terms of scale and distance) to using an upteched, militarized Spokane, Washington - with only Spokane’s population and resources - to launch an invasion-and-conquest of 1944 Europe.
Things that seemed like a cool story twenty years ago when the setting was very pewpewlazors/rockstar/rule of cool seem less so twenty years later as the game has become more ‘Combined Arms and military realism’ and less ‘Samurai duels Knight for Planet in ruins of Space Rome’.
The Clan Invasion, ironically, fits better in the Hanse Davion/Natasha Kerensky Rule-of -Cool era that it killed than it does in the somewhat more grounded setting that followed.
-
There's also been a couple real-world cultural shifts over the course of battletech's lifespan.
Began as a simulation of "real robot" anime in the 80s
Went into the 'end of history' era of the '90s
Around the same time it changed publishers, the change of the sudden 'war on terror' era hit.
I'd say that there were different expectations, markets, and suspension of disbelief cutoffs in each period.
-
Well, one thing that likely changed over the intervening years is that more and more of the player base and staff came to be aware of a branch of military science called ‘logistics’. Or for that matter, strategy. Or maybe math.
The Clan Invasion amounts (in terms of scale and distance) to using an upteched, militarized Spokane, Washington - with only Spokane’s population and resources - to launch an invasion-and-conquest of 1944 Europe.
Things that seemed like a cool story twenty years ago when the setting was very pewpewlazors/rockstar/rule of cool seem less so twenty years later as the game has become more ‘Combined Arms and military realism’ and less ‘Samurai duels Knight for Planet in ruins of Space Rome’.
The Clan Invasion, ironically, fits better in the Hanse Davion/Natasha Kerensky Rule-of -Cool era that it killed than it does in the somewhat more grounded setting that followed.
While that's true, there's a lot of Battletech that doesn't hold up to intense scrutiny. The term "FASAnomics" was created for a reason. It's one thing to be aware of it, and entirely another to the writers to completely embrace the Villain Decay.
-
The Clan invasion was doomed before it started because of numbers. They never had the numbers to keep the whole IS tamped down. Maybe if all the Clans were employed, as the Star Adder Khan suggests in Revival Trials. But that didn't happen.
Sure. The Clans were scary for a year or two, no one in the IS had seen anything like them. What they didn't know was how few the Clans actually are. They don't have the numbers.
Say what you want about the writing, we're all still here discussing it all these years later...
Except you are overlooking what massey has said about the difference between current sources and sources at the time of the Clan debut.
Number one, what I mentioned before about 26 PGCs has several implications for the setting as written at the time. The Wolves moved 26 PGCs out of the Homeworlds down the Exodus Road to take over garrison duties as soon as the ilKhan let it pass. First, the Wolves pulling 26 PGCs off of various worlds was not noticeable enough to be mentioned to the ilKhan when he was monitoring the Wolves and Clan rivalry was at a all time high. Second, the fact that shifting 5 or 6 galaxies of garrison troops was such a minor matter it got only a sentence or two at the time- a afterthought. Third, while the Wolves were first the three other invading Clans were able to assemble comparable numbers at the drop of a hat and send them off to the Inner Sphere. Finally, if you look at the spread of the Bloodnames in the phone books vs what you get now in scenarios/ficition/FMs. For WCSB the three frontline elite galaxies have Star Commanders without Bloodnames though they maybe ristars. I THINK we get Star Captains without Bloodnames because the ratio of bloodnamed to unblooded & freeborn is that high in that material. WCSB also has Bloodnamed who are abathka or shared names, and we are also told some of their Bloodnames originate from the Widowmakers- as well as the Wolves expanding the count for some that had lain dormant, a first hint at Reavings. The Wolves had 42 Bloodnames before the Absorption of the Widowmakers, say they used a quarter of those Bloodnames . . . so between shared names, reavings, and abathka they probably had 1000-1100 Bloodnamed, not all of which were on active duty (IE, Cyrilla). At most they had 1300 using a quarter of Widowmaker names and every Bloodname at 25 without abathka. New Clan materials has drastically increased the ratio of Bloodnamed in frontline units, to the point where regular mechwarriors in some stars are Bloodnamed.
Second, logistics was not something discovered post-Clan; it was a fault built into them from the beginning. The Jaguars are cited for bad planning in that regard. The Wolves took special care with their logistics as was cited in several instances. Forward supply caches were set up between waves where Wolf JS would move beyond the forward edge of territory claimed to drop off containers of supplies. The JS, both Wolf and any impressed, where kept constantly busy shifting supplies forward in the IS or to move supplies from the Homeworlds. While it might have impacted the Wolves ability to move supplies forward when they quietly moved the PGCs (honestly, probably the job of their Potemkin) they were still able to move the troops and mission critical supplies from the Homeworlds without slowing their tempo. Part of how I think they managed that is they were 'foraging' on the captured worlds- rounding up whatever supplies they could locally that would be able to support the Wolf touman. Food, medicine, medical supplies like bandages, clothing, building supplies, and anything else that meant DS space from the homeworlds could be devoted to Clan spec gear rather than general/standard gear. They also used captured machines refit with Clan weapons for replacements in those PGCs or to change more infantry into mechwarriors (I am not super familiar with the text, but it was a field expedient IIRC). Ulric realized Focht's strategy and prepared the Wolves to meet it by requiring energy loadouts for the Omnis on Tukayyid's battlefield. Ulric pointed it out in the debate after the loss at Tukayyid. Part of the strategy for the Refusal War was to take/use up the Falcon's forward supply dumps in their OZ, which had been established even as TPTB shrunk the Clan's 'hidden' strength since no early material ever said it outright.
Finally, we never get actual Clan touman strength until after two Clans were wrecked by the Refusal War where clusters disappeared from the invasion and the Second Star League needed to defeat one of the remaining Invaders. So . . . new Star League members could commit X regiments and warships which gives a cap on that one of the premier Clans could field in military strength. Only once the Star League mustered there forces were numbers ever actually published for the full strength of each Clan. We also never had the Homeworlds or population ever spelled out until they got into the OpBulldog/Serpent story arcs.
-
Where an Inner Sphere Great House has the numbers necessary to import enough paramilitaries/occupation troops to forcibly pacify a multi-billion population world like Rasalhague (should it ever be necessary in the first place), the entire Clan population of the homeworlds wouldn't have been enough to do so for a single planet the size of Rasalhague.
Pacification of worlds, pre-Clan, was a relatively simple neo-feudalistic affair. New oaths of fealty are taken from the local nobility, and job done. No need to forcibly pacify a world, no need to revolt and so no need to suppress rebellion. We have a whole new ball game when the Clans start to forcibly impose an entirely new social order on occupied worlds. A game that makes no sense at all.
-
Except for the US and URSS entering the war, the Nazis would like to disagree a lot about the fact that they had lost before it began. Just have the FWL and Capellans reach an agreement with them and there we go with the Lyran and FRR absorption (and a weird Davion-Kurita alliance).
There weren't many Mongols either, around 250.000 at most (most strengths for campaigns I can find in a 3 minute search say 100-150k per campaign). they conquered a lot of larger and more populous territories, including China.
Wars of attrition are horrible for this kind of forces, but lightning wars? Go for it. It would have been nice to see the Lyrans or DC disappear to be substituted by an ilKhanate power and the other IS powers accommodating the new faction. that, or the Clans being beaten back to the periphery. Either option would be better than the current situation IMO.
This is not a good example: the historical Mongols themselves had very limited numbers but as a policy, they actively and aggressively sought to bulk out their numbers by integrating other Central Asian and Turkic steppe people. One of Ghengis Khan's big proclamations was claiming overlordship over "all people in felt tents." In essence, he was claiming that every pastoralist from Mongolia to what is now known as Turkey could and would be accepted into his empire -- and his fielded armies, natch. It wasn't lip service, although there were a few groups who disputed this with enough fervor or in poor enough circumstances they were largely annihilated, and was handled successfully enough that people outside of the Mongol Empire generally failed to notice that actual Mongols were a minority.
As way of analogy, imagine if Phelan Kell was by no means exceptional, when the Clan invasion hit the IS itself, any and all gaps in their forces were filled by abaktha from the Periphery and very few in the Clans thought this was unusual or dishonorable. Once their intentions are known, the il-Khan asserts that the MRBC is a fraud, that all mercenaries work for him and the ones who cross over get landholds and titles as soon as they start another wave of conquests.
Secondly, while the Mongols did conquer what we consider modern China, it was anything but a lightning campaign. It was in fact long years of waiting after their initial takedown of the Jin before they followed-up against the Song, and that required years of fighting before being completed. But the Mongols did fine at the task, it just took time for them to gobble each bit they took. Of course, they were already in a situation where they had their il-Clan and il-Khan, no need to touch home base for that accolade.
-
First- as stated when the Clans occupied a planet we did not have any idea of the size, number or population of the Clan worlds.
Second- has the Hellions found to their disgust the Clans never imposed their new social order to the degree you are talking about. Sure they organized the castes and had representatives of each caste for each world to interact with warriors & Homeworld lower caste. Please tell me how that is really different than the Capellans dumping everyone into the Servitors when they started capturing worlds again- I know it was not a problem when BT originally came out but . . . Actually, if you look at the material when it came out, all the Clans did was disarm the world of mech-scale weaponry. Police & government were co-opted to run the world for the Clan. How much they interfered depended on the Clan.
-
First- as stated when the Clans occupied a planet we did not have any idea of the size, number or population of the Clan worlds.
It got even more clashing the more they published on the subject of the Clans. Maybe it's heresy, but I think the Clans would have worked better as an alternate setting for BattleTech rather than mashing them into the existing Inner Sphere setting. I'm convinced the developers even kinda realized it themselves after the fact, what with the Homeworlds being in effect another, alternate setting for the game with extremely limited relevance to the Inner Sphere setting.
Second- has the Hellions found to their disgust the Clans never imposed their new social order to the degree you are talking about. Sure they organized the castes and had representatives of each caste for each world to interact with warriors & Homeworld lower caste. Please tell me how that is really different than the Capellans dumping everyone into the Servitors when they started capturing worlds again- I know it was not a problem when BT originally came out but . . . Actually, if you look at the material when it came out, all the Clans did was disarm the world of mech-scale weaponry. Police & government were co-opted to run the world for the Clan. How much they interfered depended on the Clan.
I like to think you're right. It has to be that way, simply as a predicate for any plausible explanation for holding the OZ. I like to imagine that a OZ world of a few million native spheroids and a few thousand occupying Clanners is a world of a handful of enclaves run in true Clan style surrounded by an ocean of Dark Caste native sphereoids, less however many turn collaborationist and 'enlist' with the Clan by testing in to a caste.
Thing is, not a lot of people express agreement with that vision. And some of them are writers. The "Capellans convert everyone into Servitors" is explainable as in-universe propaganda: It's simply not factual despite being presented as fact in the pro-Capellan HB. Hell it's not logically possible as being objectively factual.
Such misinformation goes way back. Example: the House Kurita sourcebook says that their mechwarriors will never retreat, never surrender, and never give back POWs per the rules of the Dictum Honorium. We know all three claims are simply false. I say the same is true about statements regarding Cappellan social re-engineering.
-
I like to think you're right. It has to be that way, simply as a predicate for any plausible explanation for holding the OZ. I like to imagine that a OZ world of a few million native spheroids and a few thousand occupying Clanners is a world of a handful of enclaves run in true Clan style surrounded by an ocean of Dark Caste native sphereoids, less however many turn collaborationist and 'enlist' with the Clan by testing in to a caste.
I could agreee with that vision easily enough. Happened before on Earth after all.
Refering to the COmbine and Capellan social orders, for me these *are* a problem because they are so different from the other powers that be in the IS that the peaceful transfer of sovereignty between border worlds make no sense at all. Conquering ONE Suns or ONE Capellan would would require a massive garrison, and decades of worldwide terrorism and insurrections. This is why I dislike the DC and CC descriptions. If that was reserved to the upper classes, no problem, but they are depicted as having too much of a change socially to the large population for them to make much sense to me.
-
Well, the problem with visualizing alien weapons is that we're not aliens, and we've never met aliens, so we don't really know what's practical for them. So you're left with just human style technology with some stylistic variation. It's tough to create something the reader will recognize as technology, that is also different from anything humans have ever created.
This is the science-fiction writer's burden, not the game rules designer's.
(For instance, this artifact reaches out to 23 hexes and does 10 damage, whether it's soft-serve ice cream or nano-nuclear grenades. Roll for initiative. Off you go.)
The hard part is trying a proof of an existence of intelligent xenos in a universe of gagillions of worlds of wildly variable gravity, chemistry, geology and atmosphere and a sample size of exactly ONE.
Here there be space kraken.
-
I also don't think Alien tech should be too different from normal. ... But drivable trees, firing explosive pinecones, and acid squiting flowers. Don't think so. Might be fun but not Battletech.
It was fun. Also found a more plausible way to have a hive mind, and 'battle structures' seemed really neat with a plant theme. Just imagine the Zerg hive structures, with leaves.
Actually concocted a scenario, played it out, and it deserved a write-up.
My friends liked it enough that they wanted to see what would come after the 'first encounter' set-up - since first encounter was how I designed the engagement. Neither side knew what the other was capable of, and had to up the ante every turn.
After a first encounter, the alien plant mind would be aware of what didn't work, and any other encounter would be starting off higher. Things that worked on warding off biological predators (herbivores) would be discarded when dealing with armored units like Mechs or Battle Armor.
But, at some point, I think BattleTechnology would be the common ground for something like this. A plant-based organism can only grow stuff so fast and so strong. Eventually, it would have to adapt by taking over and learning to use destroyed or captured equipment. Imagine real zombie Mechs motivated by plant constructs, or plant pilots that can take hits that human pilots can't.
Compared to that, the Clans aren't really that alien.
-
...
Refering to the COmbine and Capellan social orders, for me these *are* a problem because they are so different from the other powers that be in the IS that the peaceful transfer of sovereignty between border worlds make no sense at all. Conquering ONE Suns or ONE Capellan would would require a massive garrison, and decades of worldwide terrorism and insurrections. This is why I dislike the DC and CC descriptions. If that was reserved to the upper classes, no problem, but they are depicted as having too much of a change socially to the large population for them to make much sense to me.
Oh I envision the IS as being in effect one society run by one class of nobility that's compatible with whatever Great House currently controls a given world. (the old "nothing changes for civilians when a world changes hands except the flag they have to fly at government compounds and maybe the notes that are accepted in the world's banks" paradigm)
The DC and CC make wild claims otherwise, but they're just that: claims. A world like Annapolis as described in the RPG materials is actually notable because it sticks so close to the House Kurita party line of what a Combine world is 'supposed' to be like. Worlds from New Samarkand to Dieron are very much described as varying immensely from the Annapolis-style Combine conformity. Sure the DC and CC have all kinds of trappings that are particular to their state, but think about what happens when you conquer a world. You put it under martial law, you don't go upending the social order and putting millions (or billions) of people in re-education camps. Even if it COULD logistically work (and while pretending let's not ultimately lose sight that it's impossible), it'd be ridiculously expensive. Say you have a successful campaign and have a dozen worlds to absorb... it's ridiculous. No, you keep the world under martial law rather than turn everyone into a servitor or rebuilding the world as an Annapolis. If it's retaken, you haven't wasted resources converting it. If you hold it for a few generations, THEN you consider rolling back martial law and turning everyone into Servitors or rebuilding it as an Annapolis. Incrementally and slowly, and you'd surely have to do it over the course of a few MORE generations. Most worlds probably never become 'model' Combine or Capellan worlds. Even worlds that have never, ever, been owned by any other great house.
-
And, this is why the Republic ended up having issues after the blackout. The whole Assyrian cultural rearrangement program didn't work once the ruling powers enforcing it couldn't keep a constant eye on affairs.
A side note: If we're going to bandy about clan terms, let's check to make sure we're spelling them right. It's Abtakha (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dictionary#Abtakha). I like to think of it as 'I-take-a', though it's all short(?) a's.
On to Clan Tech Weapons and their stats: you do realize that the formula for the clan weapons was pretty straight forward when comparing it to intro-tech, right? A simple 1.5 benefit in range, damage, weight reduction, and crit-space, to a minimum of one slot, compared to the weapon of the same name. That's why the Clan ER Medium Laser outclasses the intro Large Laser so handily. There might be some discrepancies in the final values, like the ER Large versus the ER PPC. Not sure what the logic was there, but generally, it was easy to break down. I don't think they noticed that the ER Medium outclassed the intro Large Laser until way too late.
As for the pulse lasers, I'm not sure about that one, since the two seemed to come out about the same time. When did the TRo 2750 hit shelves?
Yes, I find it really rediculous that the primary weapon of protomechs works as well as it does, and a star of protos works like a Black Hawk/Nova watching its heat output.
But, that was their solution at the time. I remember reading somewhere that one of the things they tried doing at first was giving Clan weapons modern levels of line-of-sight reach versus standard Inner Sphere stuff. Proved way too powerful, even with no damage changes. I can't say for sure where I read this, since it's been a long while. But, it sounds like they'd gotten enough feedback about ranges being 'unrealistic' that they were looking at advancing technology by restoring realistic ranges.
I've played that style of game, once, and it's completely different than what we have, even now. Indirect fire and big-hitting guns are the name of the game. (And you wonder why the AC/20 is the go-to gun in a lot of novels? That's what the game looks like when you adhere to the notion the ranges are trunkated, too.)
-
As far as Clan populations go, I don't think we ever saw those numbers until really late. I flipped through the original Jade Falcon book but couldn't find any info on how many people lived on the homeworlds. I thought I read somewhere (later) that they had about 300 million people, but Sarna says they've got like 115 million. (checks again) It appears that number comes from The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, published in 1999. And yeah, that matches with what Colt Ward was saying earlier. That's when FASA wanted the Clans to be defeated, and so their strength was limited so that they could lose. Before that, nobody really had any idea how big the Clans were.
Ultimately, the numbers FASA gave made the Clan Invasion really hard to swallow. But its afterwards that other writers decided to take those criticisms and voice them in the fiction itself. Nobody else has ever had to worry about population size, why is it suddenly important with the Clans?
That's my biggest gripe with how they were handled. They are introduced as an apocalyptic threat to the Inner Sphere, and then you've gotta hit them with the Nerf bat because you're tired of that story and you want to focus on your new bad guy.
-
This is the science-fiction writer's burden, not the game rules designer's.
(For instance, this artifact reaches out to 23 hexes and does 10 damage, whether it's soft-serve ice cream or nano-nuclear grenades. Roll for initiative. Off you go.)
The hard part is trying a proof of an existence of intelligent xenos in a universe of gagillions of worlds of wildly variable gravity, chemistry, geology and atmosphere and a sample size of exactly ONE.
Here there be space kraken.
Well said.
Besides the balance issue, this is the main failing of the Clan concept I think. Though I still think it was a good attempt. (Or is that just my BT fan bias showing...)
-
That's my biggest gripe with how they were handled. They are introduced as an apocalyptic threat to the Inner Sphere, and then you've gotta hit them with the Nerf bat because you're tired of that story and you want to focus on your new bad guy.
And, with the Jihad books, we find that Terra has enough tech and population that WoB and Comstar could have outfitted more than enough to really stop the Clan Invasion cold. I'm sure 'the Clans are invading! Protect your home!' would have been more than enough impetus for a massive volunteer army from the complacent population.
In fact, with that in retrospect, I'm kinda wondering if the Clans were thinking that the wealth of Terra would have been very worth the effort. I kinda suspect they weren't really planning on holding planets for the long-term. Their goal was Earth. It wasn't until Tukkayid that they had to turn around and look at what they had gained and start implementing occupation to get something out of it.
-
And, with the Jihad books, we find that Terra has enough tech and population that WoB and Comstar could have outfitted more than enough to really stop the Clan Invasion cold. I'm sure 'the Clans are invading! Protect your home!' would have been more than enough impetus for a massive volunteer army from the complacent population.
In fact, with that in retrospect, I'm kinda wondering if the Clans were thinking that the wealth of Terra would have been very worth the effort. I kinda suspect they weren't really planning on holding planets for the long-term. Their goal was Earth. It wasn't until Tukkayid that they had to turn around and look at what they had gained and start implementing occupation to get something out of it.
Well, the BTU, like any long-running SciFi franchise, has a bad habit of randomly kicking over rocks only to find Bolthole/The Clans/The Yuzzhan Vong/The Mesan Alliance/The Word of Blake/Starkiller Base lying under those rocks.
Its no doubt much easier to write when you can just randomly discover setting-shattering military powers, totally invisible before now, than trying make something interesting out of the actually existing setting.
-
And, with the Jihad books, we find that Terra has enough tech and population that WoB and Comstar could have outfitted more than enough to really stop the Clan Invasion cold. I'm sure 'the Clans are invading! Protect your home!' would have been more than enough impetus for a massive volunteer army from the complacent population.
At the time most of the tech wouldn't be ready and the population would be untrained.
-
Lets not forget a good chunk of Com Star wanted to rule the IS themselves, why they started off friendly with the Clans until they realized they both wanted the same job. Besides: what made Com Star-> Word of Blake scary wasn't their tech base, it was their brutality. Scientist rediscovering tech you don't trust in the hands of the Great Houses? Assassinate the scientist (operation Holy Shroud) Mercenaries uncovering buried secret? Kill the witnesses and frame the mercenaries (The Price of Glory) Have a insurgency? Start executing collaborators (Ideal War) Facing force of Superior numbers? Nukes are a great equalizer if you don't care about casualties. Got reports that a enemy Com Guard unit has infiltrated your defenses and have dug in within the city of St. Louis. Take no chances, nuke St. Louis and blame it on the Com Guard (the Shaded Light)
-
This is the science-fiction writer's burden, not the game rules designer's.
(For instance, this artifact reaches out to 23 hexes and does 10 damage, whether it's soft-serve ice cream or nano-nuclear grenades. Roll for initiative. Off you go.)
The hard part is trying a proof of an existence of intelligent xenos in a universe of gagillions of worlds of wildly variable gravity, chemistry, geology and atmosphere and a sample size of exactly ONE.
Here there be space kraken.
The other issue is that slight differences in time, starting resources, or lucky innovations result in huge disparities in technology and weaponry when societies separated by distance meet in war. A difference in technological development of maybe only a few hundred years gave the Spanish conquistadors steel armor and gunpowder firearms versus the leather/cotton armor and arrows/atlatls of native Mesoamericans.
Even in the 31st and 32nd century, technological humanity will only be a thousand or so years old. Almost any alien culture will be much older. It's unrealistic to expect the technology and weaponry of an alien society that is thousands or millions (maybe even billions) of years older to be on par with humanity's technological base. Alien technology will almost always outstrip humanity's weaponry like an M-1 Abrams outstrips Neanderthal clubs. Or ants.
That's a long-winded way of saying that there is something realistic and right about Clan technology versus Spheroid technology. The differences are about what you would expect if Star League weaponry was allowed to develop somewhere isolated for a century or two while the technology base of the rest of the Inner Sphere became static or backslid. It may not have been balanced the best for gameplay, but compared to the wildly unrealistic alien technology parity of Star Trek/Star Wars-type universes, the advantages of Clan technology feel about right.
YMMV...
-
As far as Clan populations go, I don't think we ever saw those numbers until really late... Nobody else has ever had to worry about population size, why is it suddenly important with the Clans?
I agree. For whatever reason -- sheeple comprise 99.9% of the BTech population, BTech's grand interstellar empires are thin overlays on planetary governments that make no difference in the life of most citizens, mech unit TO&Es are the tip of the iceberg masking huge numbers of pacification troops in every realm, etc. -- the vast majority of major planetary invasions in the BTech universe involve a massive disparity in the number of invaders versus the invaded population. It's one thing to conquer some border, outback or Periphery world of thousands. It's another thing to bring a significant world of millions or a major world of billions to heel. With a few notable exceptions (Kentares, the formation of the FRR, Zhanzheng de Guang, etc.), the back-and-forth exchanges of worlds with substantial populations in the BTech universe have never made sense, pre- or post-Operation Revival.
That said, if you accept this quirk of the Btech universe and assume that planetary populations never matter -- that like nearly all BTech engagements, the Clan invasion was only a military versus military war -- then I think it would have been possible for the Clans to conquer the Inner Sphere given the numbers in the 20-Year Update. There are a little under 540 battlemech regiments listed in that product (including AFFC, DCMS, FRR, FWLM, CCAF, and ComGuard). Assuming 100 or so mechs in each regiment, the Inner Sphere fielded something on the order of 55,000 battlemechs circa 3050.
We don't have similar figures for all the Clans. But assuming that each of the 17 Clans that existed before the trials for Operation Revival could field 25 frontline clusters (five galaxies of five clusters) of 50 omnimechs each, then the Clans had something on the order of 21,000 frontline omnimechs.
If we assume that one frontline Clan omnimech can eliminate two Spheroid battlemechs, then theoretically, had they all attacked like the Adders wanted, the Clans could have nearly wiped out every Spheroid mech before dipping into their secondline and garrison forces.
If we assume that one frontline Clan omnimech can eliminate three Spheroid battlemechs, then theoretically, had they all attacked like the Adders wanted, the Clans could have wiped out every Spheroid mech and many more before dipping into their secondline and garrison forces.
Of course, these numbers are rough. Assumptions about Spheroid command lances and companies, ComGuard tech level, effectiveness of combat vehicles, aerospace advantages, etc. may shift things towards the Spheroid militaries. But assumptions about exact frontline touman figures, secondline forces, keshik sizes, prevalence of cluster command stars, elemental effectiveness, and the role of warships may shift things towards the Clans.
But surprisingly, as long as we ignore populations as most of BTech history has, had the Clans fought as a whole during Operation Revival (and maybe worked on their logistics), their forces were probably in the ballpark for what was needed to practically wipe out or certainly bring all of the Inner Sphere's militaries to their knees.
If only the Crusaders had listened to the Adders...
-
If we're going there we might as well rewrite all of BT in order to make logistical sense.
Start with scaling down populations and scaling up militaries, each by an order of magnitude. That just about closes the difference into the realm of sensibility.
(But on second thought, let's not go to Camelot...)
-
... wait, are we getting into Fasanomics again?
*gets up, jumps out nearest widow*
-
One order of magnitude isn't even remotely enough. One of the original PTB back in BattleTechnology days statted out a world (Mira) logically.
-
Thing is, not a lot of people express agreement with that vision. And some of them are writers. The "Capellans convert everyone into Servitors" is explainable as in-universe propaganda: It's simply not factual despite being presented as fact in the pro-Capellan HB. Hell it's not logically possible as being objectively factual.
Point of Order: All a Servitor is is someone is someone who is not a Capellan Citizen; i.e. a person without legal rights. Their socio-economic status is completely distinct from Citizenship & in a world where everyone is a Servitor, it would be largely meaningless in the short-term. Indeed, the Federated Suns places all newly conquered planets under a Military Governorship, & descriptions of similar arrangements can be found for all of Battletech's leading factions. While I disagree with the mostly fan-postulated "sheeple" theory of Inner Sphere political stability, the truth is there's nothing mechanically distinct about Servitorship beyond assigning it to an individual rather than to a geographic area.
-
What I learned from all these posts:
...I never knew how much I wanted a mech that fires giant scoops of icecream....
???
-
Note to self, loading the Fluid Dispenser with froyo is not funny.
It's hilarious.
-
One order of magnitude isn't even remotely enough. One of the original PTB back in BattleTechnology days statted out a world (Mira) logically.
Actually, the trade fleet there is consistent with the number of ships Mira and the trade partners listed with it would be using if the Inner Sphere had 2000 jumpships total.
Also, if we measure a faction's ability to support their military by the natural resources and technological infrastructure available to them (with number of worlds and number of jumpships being the most direct proxies), I actually find the Clans to be a fairly even match for the Inner Sphere.
-
The jumpship numbers might have been in line, but the available military manpower of over 200,000,000 and hundreds of regiments of conventional troops (and 9 battalions of 'mechs) didn't really mesh with the "single lance seizing a planet" aesthetic.
-
I could agreee with that vision easily enough. Happened before on Earth after all.
Refering to the COmbine and Capellan social orders, for me these *are* a problem because they are so different from the other powers that be in the IS that the peaceful transfer of sovereignty between border worlds make no sense at all. Conquering ONE Suns or ONE Capellan would would require a massive garrison, and decades of worldwide terrorism and insurrections. This is why I dislike the DC and CC descriptions. If that was reserved to the upper classes, no problem, but they are depicted as having too much of a change socially to the large population for them to make much sense to me.
People are pretty flexible. My parents both came from countries that underwent multiple political and cultural upheavals last century, and those periods were terrible but also suggested that you don’t need massive resources to force the transition. There’s always a significant minority that prefers the new situation to the old and is willing to help - not just those who become collaborators for personal gain, but those who genuinely support the change or those who think they can co-opt it. They get some military and media support against the serious resistance while most of the population keeps their head down.
To put it another way: if Capellans could all be expected to resist regime change, there wouldn’t need to be a Maskirovka.
Granted, that won’t really win people over to the new nation. They’ll keep their old identities, religion, language, etc. in private (if you clamp down on those, which tends to be counterproductive), but it gets harder to pass them down with every generation.
-
The jumpship numbers might have been in line, but the available military manpower of over 200,000,000 and hundreds of regiments of conventional troops (and 9 battalions of 'mechs) didn't really mesh with the "single lance seizing a planet" aesthetic.
Mira is where the Crucis Lancers were massing for the strike on Tikonov, and the "single lance seizing a planet" has always been more meme than truth.
-
The Crucis Lancers don't have 529 battalions of infantry...
-
Mira is where the Crucis Lancers were massing for the strike on Tikonov, and the "single lance seizing a planet" has always been more meme than truth.
A single lance of mechs plus some attached infantry took over Trellwan in the very first book of the Grey Death trilogy...
-
The Crucis Lancers don't have 529 battalions of infantry...
...do they need to? The Crucis Lancers need more than their own 120 infantry battalions to match what awaits them on Tikonov, and infantry destined for later waves need to be gathered somewhere too.
All of which is to say that, in OG Fasanomics (whose Inner Sphere really is only a single order of magnitude less populous than FanPro's/CGL's), infantry forces seem to be scaled to be realistic against the smallish "typical" worlds rather than for the population of the relatively rarer gigapop worlds.
Which would be why, while the invading Clans did have problems with revolts and otherwise noncompliant populations, they could mostly handle them - most worlds are small, like Trellwan.
A single lance of mechs plus some attached infantry took over Trellwan in the very first book of the Grey Death trilogy...
Trellwan is quite pointedly a nothing planet on the quiet edge of nowhere behind the front lines. Mira is an exceptionally populous world in a valuable stretch of space on a hotly contested border - there's no comparison. ;)
-
The article seems clear those battalions were part of the planet's military, not Federal. I don't buy the Crucis Lancer argument.
Apocal offered a canon counter example to "more meme than truth", not that Trellwan was directly comparable to Mira.
-
It was fun. Also found a more plausible way to have a hive mind, and 'battle structures' seemed really neat with a plant theme. Just imagine the Zerg hive structures, with leaves.
Actually concocted a scenario, played it out, and it deserved a write-up.
My friends liked it enough that they wanted to see what would come after the 'first encounter' set-up - since first encounter was how I designed the engagement. Neither side knew what the other was capable of, and had to up the ante every turn.
After a first encounter, the alien plant mind would be aware of what didn't work, and any other encounter would be starting off higher. Things that worked on warding off biological predators (herbivores) would be discarded when dealing with armored units like Mechs or Battle Armor.
But, at some point, I think BattleTechnology would be the common ground for something like this. A plant-based organism can only grow stuff so fast and so strong. Eventually, it would have to adapt by taking over and learning to use destroyed or captured equipment. Imagine real zombie Mechs motivated by plant constructs, or plant pilots that can take hits that human pilots can't.
Compared to that, the Clans aren't really that alien.
Sounds fun :)
We don't have similar figures for all the Clans. But assuming that each of the 17 Clans that existed before the trials for Operation Revival could field 25 frontline clusters (five galaxies of five clusters) of 50 omnimechs each, then the Clans had something on the order of 21,000 frontline omnimechs.
Not all the Clans had 5 Galaxies with 50 mechs each. Some clans just had over 5 Galaxies including aerospace, vehicle, Battle Armor, and Infantry. Maybe if the poorer clans barrowed from the richer ones but the clans don't always work that way. Even if they did, there's also the Mech forces of the Periphery, Mercenaries, Security Forces, Militia and Bandits. That's going to add to the Inner Sphere numbers. How much is unknown though. Granted most won't be worth much but they'll be taking hits others won't. And none of this considers the conventional units on both sides. All those tanks, infantry/BA, and fighters would also be contributing to the war effort. The biggest advantage the Clans have is warships but I don't think it'd be too long before the Inner Sphere started throwing nukes. Although I think the Turians will start right away. Overall, I think it'd be a toss up over who wins and mutual annihlation.
-
Yeah. MWDA had too many factions and it killed their game. They were literally trying to reduce the amount of battletech factions a little while ago. That's not gonna work from a making fans perspective.
I respectfully disagree. Even though I've been playing since before the Clans were revealed, setting-wise I found the successor states to be unrealistic and the Clans not to my liking. I always played as small mercenary companies because that appealed to me.
Then Dark Ages clix came out and I loved the initial new factions. They were well thought out, full of character, had clear goals, and best of all were small scale. I much preferred the idea of local conflicts that have a big impact over galaxy-spanning empires fighting over a planet full of mud that logistically they are too far away to govern effectively. It was also nice to have a fresh start to the setting without all of the baggage.
Of course, it didn't last. I didn't keep up with the clix game because it suddenly had a million more factions, and the old baggage came back, and then those new factions I had fallen in love with were all systematically destroyed by future fiction... sigh.
-
Robot Jox (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102800/?ref_=nv_sr_1). The plot revolves around genetically bred mecha pilots conducting a Trial of Possession (for Alaska). And they even have Greek naming conventions.
It's inadvertently a perfect Clan-centric BattleTech movie. And that speaks volumes for how not-original the Clans really are, when it comes down to brass tacks :)
Oh, I know Robot Jox. Damn near wore out a VHS tape of it. And yes while the Robot Jox world has come around to what is essentially a trial of possession, culturally things are pretty normal if crapsack. The tubies in there aren't populous enough to even fill a sibko. And the weird thing about them is that they're gene engineered (and it turns the prejudice around from how BT does it) not that they've got the warrior rites.
and I mean, that's really it. It's not a RITUAL in Robot Jox. Strange, but that makes a difference for me. And it's just their proxy for conflict with other nations. You don't see the warriors declaring trials against each other, or holding anything like a bloodname competition.
It's the whole world too, or atleast the American and Soviet blocs. It's lacking the "higher tech, highly skilled but outnumbered" aspect that the clans give one.
-
In my view, most worlds of the Inner Sphere have very little in the way of excess production. Planet Dirtball VII may have 100 million people living on it, but most of them live at a basic subsistence level. Not pioneer settler subsistence, but still a relatively simple existence. Think the 1950s where a family would have one car, and "modern conveniences" meant a refrigerator and a washing machine (clothes were still hung up to dry). Most of them can support mid-20th century technology with their local industrial base, with a sprinkling of more advanced stuff, but they probably import most things more advanced than that. A local weapons manufacturer might sell good quality laser rifles the same way Remington sells shotguns today. Or a car manufacturer might make something like Luke's landspeeder. But these are really just stylistic changes to suit a sci-fi universe. Most of the advanced tech that they produce is going to be focused on making their planet livable, like water filters or some kind of air purifiers in the cities, or giant greenhouses to grow food for the people.
The local noble, of course, has all he needs, and he's got private security forces in place, mainly to protect himself and keep watch over the populace. Even on relatively "free" worlds, nobles would have a lot of protection. Systems are in place to keep an eye on possible troublemakers, and the noble has several layers of protection so that he can retain control of the planet.
What that means is that if you show up with battlemechs and you chase off the ruling noble, it's pretty easy to step into his shoes and keep running the joint. The Inner Sphere may have vast populations, but most of them are spending their time just surviving. The systems to keep them from rebelling are already in place, and most of the time you're just leaving the farmers alone anyway. The Clans could come in and seize the capital city, seize the spaceport, and take the one factory on the planet that produces something worth shipping offworld, and they control the planet. As much as they care to, anyway.
-
... wait, are we getting into Fasanomics again?
*gets up, jumps out nearest widow*
You can't talk about the plausibility of the Clan Invasion without getting into FASAnomics. Nor can you talk about the relative military strength of the Clans, or about how occupation works, or anything like that, without getting into FASAnomics.
The solution here is to just not try to think about it. Do not read any BattleTech product as containing actual numbers. Read numbers as "a lot" or "a little", and then imagine specific numbers that make sense.
For the most part I think this works fine when dealing with wars between peers - Clan-on-Clan duels, or great house versus great house - and it's only when you introduce faction mismatches (i.e. Clan versus great house, ComStar/WoB versus anyone) that it really starts to get nonsensical. Clan Invasion logistics may arguably not be worse than great house logistics, but the Clan Invasion makes it much harder to gloss over.
Which is a useful piece of writing advice: avoid stories that draw attention to the weakest part of the setting, which in this case is indeed economics and logistics and anything that involves mathematics. Instead, focus on stories that draw attention to the strongest parts of the setting.
-
Mira is where the Crucis Lancers were massing for the strike on Tikonov, and the "single lance seizing a planet" has always been more meme than truth.
Even if it is a regimental combat team it would be just as silly.
Without touching population, you need to hike force numbers in Battletech past a division combat team or brigade combat team and into army group territory, just to reach (barely) the army-population ratio of today, in the post-Cold War conscription world.
-
Lance taking a planet makes sense if Battlemechs are unstoppable killing machine that can only be counter by another mech. Unfortunately, the BTU has always been bipolar regarding the power of mechs, first talking Battlemechs up like the man made gods of war then having those same mechs defeated by some scrappy infantry.
We also should also acknowledge when BT talks about a 'entire planet,' they are usually referring to that planet's largest city, if not it's only city.
-
That is unfortunately very true. The BTU very much adheres to the Planetville and Single-Biome Planet tropes.
With regards to the Clans, as I mentioned upthread a few times now the Clans are a bit better designed than the Inner Sphere in several regards, and this is another one of them. Planetville and Single-Biome planets are actually quite naturally explained by marginal worlds populated by a few enclaves, or even a single enclave. All the rest of the space of the planet and the rest of its biomes are irrelevant when uninhabited (or only inhabited by catgirls...)
The same is of course possible for IS worlds, but we rarely see worlds described that way in the Inner Sphere.
-
That is unfortunately very true. The BTU very much adheres to the Planetville and Single-Biome Planet tropes.
With regards to the Clans, as I mentioned upthread a few times now the Clans are a bit better designed than the Inner Sphere in several regards, and this is another one of them. Planetville and Single-Biome planets are actually quite naturally explained by marginal worlds populated by a few enclaves, or even a single enclave. All the rest of the space of the planet and the rest of its biomes are irrelevant when uninhabited (or only inhabited by catgirls...)
The same is of course possible for IS worlds, but we rarely see worlds described that way in the Inner Sphere.
Then we hit the flip of that, when the single biome planetville marginal world is supporting many, many galaxies of supertech mechs at the end of a 6 month plus supply line. And supporting the droppers, jumpers, and warships for spacelift.
I suppose you have a lot more industrial capacity for warmaking when you turn everyone too old, too injured, or too expensive to match their value to the glorious clan war effort into soylent green.
-
Well, so long as the industry responsible for sustaining all that is still located all in one neat little geographically-compact space, it doesn't stress the paradigm at all. A single enclave of a few million lowercastemen can still just be one enclave and therefore result in the planetville/single biome outcome.
Change "enclave" to "city" and the same is true for the IS worlds as well... but as I said it works a little better for the Clan context because they're deliberately meant to be that way for the most part.
-
I'm definitely not a clan fan but they did help the game but after after the smoke Jaguars got wiped a lot of their personal fanbase literally left battletech and were all pissy about it. I think the nova kitties were next on the hit list but can't think of why they were. They were a clan I had no problems with.
But play the game you want it's your universe
-
The article seems clear those battalions were part of the planet's military, not Federal. I don't buy the Crucis Lancer argument.
??? The article puts the data in a textbox with absolutely nothing to support them being planetary instead of federal, and when you actually look at that issue of the magazine, there's a whole story and scenario about those forces being the Crucis Lancers. There's really zero ambiguity here.
Apocal offered a canon counter example to "more meme than truth", not that Trellwan was directly comparable to Mira.
And my "more meme than truth" remark a) allows for exceptions which are outside the norm, and b) was responding to you setting up Mira as the norm.
The solution here is to just not try to think about it.
But that results in not having any discussions, which is antithetical to the purpose of a "discussion board." ;)
Even if it is a regimental combat team it would be just as silly.
Well that depends. How small does a "typical" world need to get before an RCT looks like a "realistic" garrison, and how big a population do you need at WW2 level industrial base to support a fleet of 22nd century space shuttles?
Planetville and Single-Biome planets are actually quite naturally explained by marginal worlds populated by a few enclaves, or even a single enclave. All the rest of the space of the planet and the rest of its biomes are irrelevant when uninhabited (or only inhabited by catgirls...)
The same is of course possible for IS worlds, but we rarely see worlds described that way in the Inner Sphere.
Hilariously, when I read through the Clan and Great House atlases, the average Clan worlds actually come off as more habitable on average. ;D
-
??? The article puts the data in a textbox with absolutely nothing to support them being planetary instead of federal, and when you actually look at that issue of the magazine, there's a whole story and scenario about those forces being the Crucis Lancers. There's really zero ambiguity here.
*snip*
??? I'm looking at page 10 of BattleTechnology 0203, and the only text box on the page is the "About WorldBook" blurb. Everything in those first two columns looks to be specific to the planet to me. On page 11, the sentence before the mention of the Crucis Lancers states "Most of the planetary armed forces [emphasis mine] are employed far from Mira as both extra strength on other frontiers and hostages for the planet's continued good behavior."
At worst, we're reading it differently, and I'm pretty sure neither of us will convince the other.
-
There really are a whole story and scenario later in the magazine. Read them.
-
I have, and they don't change my opinion of the Worldbook entry.
Two specific examples, one from page 35:
"I picked out the colors of five different Crucis Lancer regiments before I stopped counting."
and page 39:
"No one in the Capellan High Command believed that the entire Crucis Lancers could really be on Mira."
Both of those say to me that the Lancers are separate from the planetary forces.
The write ups for the various scenarios simply seem to have been written by someone else, and I can see how they'd give an impression that the Lancers were the only ones on planet (which I still maintain they weren't).
-
Planetville and Single-Biome planets are actually quite naturally explained by marginal worlds populated by a few enclaves, or even a single enclave. All the rest of the space of the planet and the rest of its biomes are irrelevant when uninhabited (or only inhabited by catgirls...)
I support that, BUT the problem is that the "1 trillion humans" figure has been upheld and double-downed by TTS products with populations in the billions
This includes worlds recorded as being conquered by a single regiment or Cluster of Mechs or even less in some cases
Mira is where the Crucis Lancers were massing for the strike on Tikonov, and the "single lance seizing a planet" has always been more meme than truth.
up until we had Trinaries of 15 Mechs completely crushing whole regiments of troops and subjugating populations of hundreds of millions.
and thus the circle is complete and we are now back on topic.
-
I support that, BUT the problem is that the "1 trillion humans" figure has been upheld and double-downed by TTS products with populations in the billions
This includes worlds recorded as being conquered by a single regiment or Cluster of Mechs or even less in some cases
up until we had Trinaries of 15 Mechs completely crushing whole regiments of troops and subjugating populations of hundreds of millions.
and thus the circle is complete and we are now back on topic.
the increased populations are backfill and retcon. While it makes sense from one point of view, it breaks the setting from another. I recommend that anyone who wants the flavor of the universe intact ignore it.
-
I support that, BUT the problem is that the "1 trillion humans" figure has been upheld and double-downed by TTS products with populations in the billions
This includes worlds recorded as being conquered by a single regiment or Cluster of Mechs or even less in some cases
up until we had Trinaries of 15 Mechs completely crushing whole regiments of troops and subjugating populations of hundreds of millions.
Most populations are smart enough not to escalate the situation.
-
Massive populations don't mean all that much as long as there is 1) a transportation bottleneck, and 2) a willingness to commit war crimes.
Earth has 7 1/2 billion people right now, but if aliens wanted to invade the moon, there's not much we can do about it. Inner Sphere planets can't move anything approaching a significant portion of their population anywhere. 99% of people die on the planet they were born on. There could be a planet of 40 billion people right next door, but there are still only a handful of jumpships that regularly service it. You can probably invade their neighbor without worry that those 40 billion people will ever come into play.
-
Massive populations don't mean all that much as long as there is 1) a transportation bottleneck, and 2) a willingness to commit war crimes.
The Ares Conventions only restricted the behavior of uniformed military forces combating one another, not the treatment of a nation's internal populace, or un-enlisted rebel fighters after all........ ^-^
-
And the only real penalty for violating the Ares conventions was reciprocation. In the First Succession War the Inner Sphere burned the paper the Ares conventions were written on and pissed on the ashes. By the Clan Invasion they followed a less formal set of rules.
-
Technically, I think it was Amaris who broke the rules first... everyone else is claiming simple retaliation.
-
And now back to flinging poo at the Clans....
-
And now back to flinging poo at the Clans....
So, Fire Mandrill?
-
Plenty of poo being flung without breaking bid to bring in the Mandrills. Besides, Fire Mandrill poo burns.
-
Most populations are smart enough not to escalate the situation.
Which indicates that some time before the development of KF drives, mankind was replaced enmass by people bot MK 1.4, because (not breaking the rules so you'll have to find the historic examples) there have been numerous cases of massive resistance movements even when the response was to round up everyone in the city where the action occured and kill them.
-
Which indicates that some time before the development of KF drives, mankind was replaced enmass by people bot MK 1.4, because (not breaking the rules so you'll have to find the historic examples) there have been numerous cases of massive resistance movements even when the response was to round up everyone in the city where the action occured and kill them.
All the dead planets from the succession wars are a good reminder/lesson. Also meet new boss, not that different from old boss.
-
As long as the new boss only wants you to pay similar taxes to a new fiscal organization, and do busiess as usual, it is unlikely to be resistance. However, the moment he touches culture, education, language or somesuch, things are unlikely to be that peaceful.
-
Unfortunately, both the DC and Capellens have been explicitly stated to do exactly that, which should see half of their worlds on fire with the Davions accidentally losing the odd shipment of bombs--and there's a hard limit on how many of your *own* worlds you can blow up.
The problem is, what battletech really needs is a full on, complete from the ground up rewrite. A huge chunk of the world setting is based on the original fasa works which are mish mashes of bad writing, authors sticking in stuff, "just because" and other authors showing they have absolutely no idea of scale, in either direciton, whether it's sticking billion+ worlds with heavy industry all over the map, or then turning around and saying a world with several major corporations has a population of under a million, while in one paragraph talking about how nobody can build jumpships and in another paragraph talking about BULK GRAIN shipments to a world that can feed millions of people.
Burn it down, build it from the ground up.
The problem is, of course, is that there's no way the IP owners could afford doing that, and since so many bad canon issues have been allowed to slip in, you can't do a soft, gentle retcon.
-
The problem is, what battletech really needs is a full on, complete from the ground up rewrite. A huge chunk of the world setting is based on the original fasa works which are mish mashes of bad writing, authors sticking in stuff, "just because" and other authors showing they have absolutely no idea of scale, in either direciton, whether it's sticking billion+ worlds with heavy industry all over the map, or then turning around and saying a world with several major corporations has a population of under a million, while in one paragraph talking about how nobody can build jumpships and in another paragraph talking about BULK GRAIN shipments to a world that can feed millions of people.
Burn it down, build it from the ground up.
The problem is, of course, is that there's no way the IP owners could afford doing that, and since so many bad canon issues have been allowed to slip in, you can't do a soft, gentle retcon.
My problem is that I don't like hardly anything that the current writers are producing. If they rebuilt it from the ground up, I'd check out.
The truth of the matter is that most of the details we obsess upon (population figures, interstellar shipping details, etc) are so obscure that 99.99% of the fanbase don't know or care about them. "Oh my god, a source book in 1991 listed this planet's chief export as cereal grain! How can I enjoy my game of giant robots fighting each other when there's such a glaring error?!? If you look at this book from 1987 you'll see the number of ships required to carry that much... (blah blah blah)"
The easiest solution for me is to just add a zero to the cargo capacity of all dropships, and increase the weight of the ship to match. That would mean a Mule dropship could carry 81,000 tons, which is putting it in the range of a smaller container ship. A Mammoth dropship would then carry about 370,000 tons, which would mean the ship would be about 50% bigger than the largest supertankers today (based on a quick Google search). That little change takes care of a lot of problems with shipping numbers.
Then when somebody in universe says there are only 2000 jumpships in the Inner Sphere, I just assume whoever wrote that paper didn't do their research. It's some 25 year old ComStar adept who used the Holy Order's equivalent of Wikipedia and put it in his report. But that wouldn't count any number of jumpships that run dedicated routes and aren't available for hire. The Pork-Chop Express is a Merchant class jumpship that regularly makes a border run between the FWL and the Capellan Confederation. Its two Mammoth dropships, Jack and Gracie, deliver over 700,000 tons of cornmeal every month. But it's made that run, back and forth every month, for the last 70 years. It isn't listed on any hiring service and doesn't show up on any of the databases that our lazy ComStar adept bothered to search. There are probably just as many jumpships running routes like that as there are listed in his official report.
I would much, much rather the writers do a little hand-waving like that than try to rewrite the whole setting. But personally I don't think they should get specific with numbers at all -- leave that to the fans to come up with their own head-canons.
-
I really hate the 'delete everything new' vs 'delete everything old' argument.
-
...I would much, much rather the writers do a little hand-waving like that than try to rewrite the whole setting. But personally I don't think they should get specific with numbers at all -- leave that to the fans to come up with their own head-canons.
CGL becoming officially agnostic about C-Bill costs for mechs and components is an example of them seeing it your way as well.
-
I really hate the 'delete everything new' vs 'delete everything old' argument.
ditto
-
CGL becoming officially agnostic about C-Bill costs for mechs and components is an example of them seeing it your way as well.
. . . except, that robs some of the (for those who look at it that way) fun of a c-bill pinching merc group who finds a cheaper work around that is nearly good enough. I understand the RP/SP set up for Chaos tracks but how somethings are handled to me are problematic.
Now . . . 15 Clan Omnis can easily defeat a IS 3050 mech regiment of the type that would be sent to the periphery edge . . . as long as it was not a single regiment all at once.
-
Now . . . 15 Clan Omnis can easily defeat a IS 3050 mech regiment of the type that would be sent to the periphery edge . . . as long as it was not a single regiment all at once.
That's true. Generally regiments aren't going to bunch up in one big group and march around together. They'll have scout units moving ahead, looking for enemies. They'll have companies that move to important locations to hold them. They may have an entire battalion that acts as their big hammer to smash into enemy forces once they find it. But generally a regiment will be spread out over an area.
As I've always pictured it, Clan forces will just chew these groups up one at a time. They'd move from unit to unit, annihilating companies one at a time. If they needed to repair or reload, they'd do it pretty quickly. By Inner Sphere standards, the modular replacement of Omnis would be lightning fast. When it came time to hit the main battalion, only then would the IS forces have kind of a fighting chance. Even then, though, unfamiliarity with Clan weapons and machines would lead to mistakes.
-
That's true. Generally regiments aren't going to bunch up in one big group and march around together. They'll have scout units moving ahead, looking for enemies. They'll have companies that move to important locations to hold them. They may have an entire battalion that acts as their big hammer to smash into enemy forces once they find it. But generally a regiment will be spread out over an area.
As I've always pictured it, Clan forces will just chew these groups up one at a time. They'd move from unit to unit, annihilating companies one at a time. If they needed to repair or reload, they'd do it pretty quickly. By Inner Sphere standards, the modular replacement of Omnis would be lightning fast. When it came time to hit the main battalion, only then would the IS forces have kind of a fighting chance. Even then, though, unfamiliarity with Clan weapons and machines would lead to mistakes.
Absolutely.
Keep in mind that Clan ´Mechs during the initial invasion tended to be faster than IS mechs (probably introtech, out at the periphery border regions) in similar roles, and longer-ranged. That star Ice Ferret Primes and Bs and Viper Bs and Ds may well be able to drop most of a company of IS scouts before any of them can shoot back. And once they do shoot back, they find that, unlike the IS mech of that speed, those Clan machines actually have worthwhile armor protection.
Heck, I´ll take that star against *any* company of introtech machines. Clan ER PPC and ER large lasers at long range against AC/2s and LRMs? Clan pilots with gunnery 2 or 3 generating TMMs of 3 or 4, against IS pilots with gunnery 4 or 5 generating TMMs of 1 or 2? It´ll take a while, but if you give me enough space, it won´t even be a real contest.
-
The solution to the clans is and has always been artillery.
-
I think the Clan Invasion was such a paradigm shift because it got rid of the "gentleman's rules" where if a mech took internal damage it withdrew and attacks were not pressed home to destruction b/c the machines were difficult to replace and a symbol of your status. The Clans brought home what the Rangers have been touting for a while- 'Speed, Surprise and Violence of Action.' Your upteen-th ancestor's Marauder had a shot breech the RT and now you are trying to withdraw without taking more damage . . . but you cannot back up faster than these things shooting at you- in fact they can run for twice what you can walk. So now any initial defense force in a large enough size spreads themselves apart trying to follow standard conventions and when the CO tries to talk to the attackers they are speaking gibberish! Star League English mostly, but what they say makes no sense! And HOLY CRAP, Jenkins Archer just blew apart and he was behind me!
The Clans moved faster tactically, strategically on planet and strategically on interstellar scale. Again, looking at early worlds like Icar the phrasing was not that the defenders were wiped out, it was that resistance was wiped out when the Clan forces captured the defenders DS/HQ or the planetary capital. So you are the merc forces, you power down b/c your CO announces that you surrender . . . thinking you are going to get back your DS and lift offworld. Everyone who survives in a mech, lines them up on the spaceport apron, powers down and climbs out. Just in time to be marched off to a prisoner area by these huge armored infantry. Only then do you find you are now Dispossessed and chattel.
The Pause Year did more than keep the IS from being attacked for that time & talking on Outreach. They were able to offset their own strategic limitations- the AFFS & DCMS had a much easier time shuffling troops from the interior to the front. Information from survivors/escapees was able to be disseminated to the units on the 'frontlines' -things like if you surrender you will be dispossess, there is no ransom. Do not fight at long ranges. Do not fight from fixed positions, mount a mobile defense. Units posted to the combat theater were able to undergo exercises simulating the threat they expected to face, rather than against say Leaguers or Dracs/AFFS. Munitions and parts were placed in dispersed dumps on the worlds as well as creating supply lines from sources to the new periphery fronts.
-
How stupid have you got to be to not realise that you have to dogpile Clans at least 2-on-1 in order to win, and let yourself be picked off in detail? Horror movie "lets split up and search for the serial killer in this dark place full of convenient ambush points" stupid?
-
The first wave? Not stupid, ignorant. It's hard to tell the difference at first glance, but it's there.
After that, comstar is playing silly buggers, so the intel isn't getting out. More ignorance, plus the months long OODA loop imposed by communications times even when they're working.
After the election? That's when the sphere started to win.
-
Lance taking a planet makes sense if Battlemechs are unstoppable killing machine that can only be counter by another mech. Unfortunately, the BTU has always been bipolar regarding the power of mechs, first talking Battlemechs up like the man made gods of war then having those same mechs defeated by some scrappy infantry.
We also should also acknowledge when BT talks about a 'entire planet,' they are usually referring to that planet's largest city, if not it's only city.
Yup. And, much of it comes from the very novels a lot of people tout as great BT fiction. Grey Death series? A locust pilot is cowed by a guy with inferno missiles. Novels with Cassie Suthorn. Even Far Country had a DEST team out-do the Mech Mercs to save the birds.
Some of the very authors who were supposed to help expand the universe took a look at the major combat unit, laughed, and carried their derision into the fiction they wrote.
-
The first wave? Not stupid, ignorant. It's hard to tell the difference at first glance, but it's there.
After that, comstar is playing silly buggers, so the intel isn't getting out. More ignorance, plus the months long OODA loop imposed by communications times even when they're working.
After the election? That's when the sphere started to win.
Even the original TR 3050 was written with the general ignorance in mind. Numbers were unknown, but certain clans seemed to field a certain design with more variety or frequency than others.
-
The Pork-Chop Express is a Merchant class jumpship that regularly makes a border run between the FWL and the Capellan Confederation. Its two Mammoth dropships, Jack and Gracie, deliver over 700,000 tons of cornmeal every month. But it's made that run, back and forth every month, for the last 70 years.
and that how the owner David Lo Pan likes it off the Comstar's books
-
The solution to the clans is and has always been artillery.
Smaller forces than what the IS fields, generally faster and more mobile. Better electronics, better hero, better anything. Artillery is a tool, but not a magic wand, and not by any means anti-clan magic., or or off the tabletop. If it were that much of a game changer, the Clans that are now in the IS, and not encumbered by silly honor codes, could employ Artillery, which is more damaging to the type of defensive situations the IS would employ.
-
Smaller forces than what the IS fields, generally faster and more mobile. Better electronics, better hero, better anything. Artillery is a tool, but not a magic wand, and not by any means anti-clan magic., or or off the tabletop. If it were that much of a game changer, the Clans that are now in the IS, and not encumbered by silly honor codes, could employ Artillery, which is more damaging to the type of defensive situations the IS would employ.
In the fluff, they do employ it. The Jade Falcons on Tukkayid were trying to use it to effect a crossing before Aidan Pryde came up with the idea of forming a break with the Falcon Guards' mechs. There is nothing preventing players from using it on the table, so far as I'm aware.
-
Smaller forces than what the IS fields, generally faster and more mobile. Better electronics, better hero, better anything. Artillery is a tool, but not a magic wand, and not by any means anti-clan magic., or or off the tabletop. If it were that much of a game changer, the Clans that are now in the IS, and not encumbered by silly honor codes, could employ Artillery, which is more damaging to the type of defensive situations the IS would employ.
Yes, but it responds very, very well to simply ‘adding more numbers’, is the definition of low tech, cheap, and mass produceable. It doesnt care that the clans have more range, and better pilots, and better weapons, and magical ponies and I-win-buttons.
Its also absolute murder on toads.
Now, given the Clans other qualities, its no doubt that if the authors of the time had cared to remember Artillery existed, the Clans would have 10x better super-artillery that cant be counter-batteried and has twice the range and 3x the ammo... but they missed that, so its one area, the only area, where the bastard offspring of the Mongol Hordes (without the hordes - this is Rhode Island invades Europe) and Lord if the Flies (If the kids on the island had suddenly designed and built tech a century ahead of Great Britain) dont get to win by mindlessly banging their head against the walls to trigger an ‘I Win’ button surgically implanted on their forehead by an authorial crew who manifestly either did not know or did not care about, among many, many other disciplines, logistics, or tactics, or combined arms, or...
I think the Clans likely made more sense in their beer and pretzels era, the yehaaaw watch this era, the ‘Phantom Mech Matters Noone Can Fight Kell and win’ era. Its ‘mine is better lazor awesome’ and the morality your favourite high school bully writ large (and packaged instead as wish fullfillment I’m-superior LazorAwesome Super Hard Warrior).
The fact they were let loose on people just trying to play battletech, witb their 23 ranges and 15 damage PPCs and no balancing mechanism but a Zebringen which would be ignored whenever convenient, in the hands of an endless succession of lookie-what-I-can-do 15 year old cheeseweasels, is... pretty much appropriate to them.
Between then and now we all kinda grew up, and learned about silly little things like Economics and Logistics and what happens when glory-hounding individually focused warrior cultures fight soldiers and we look back at the clans and... they just feel like something from the power fantasies of a frustrated teenager - likely one who just lost a game of Battletech. They reek of ‘I can kick ass and your not the boss of me’ with their super-everything and their blood houses and their furry cosplay tribal thing.
Now, the authors have tried, I think, to mature the Clans away from that, and to patch over the massive holes they blew in anything like suspension of disbelief - but IMNSHO, thats really wasted effort that could be better spent consigning an error to the grave and moving on to something less terrible.
Ranty, but its a ranty sort of thread, I suppose.
-
Except you are still backwards applying what has been written of the Clans NOW to then. They were originally written to be much larger- 23 clusters worth of troops & material gets a single mention as if it was insignificant. They also were originally written, in BOK!, to deal with logistics- its part of why the Wolves were performing better than the other three Clans. Its why we get a scene on Tukayyid where Ulric is chewing out Conal for his galaxy/cluster's profligate use of munitions when facing ComStar as well as IIRC not responding to a thrust against a supply base as quickly as Ulric wanted. Artillery for the Clans DID come out during the invasion, WCSB is the source of the Naga.
The Clans never had their touman size spelled out until it was time for the Jaguars to die. THEN we find out the population of the homeworlds is so small, that what the IS can spare can defeat a single top tier Clan . . . all of which was WHY the Clans were never detailed to the public so that authors could hammer them into the narrative as needed. Over half the Wolf touman fell into a black hole in the Refusal War, probably chasing a Falcon galaxy or two that disappeared.
The only point I can agree on is that while the Invasion was supposed to have the Clans winning most the fights, developers might have been expecting too much from players behavior when they sat down to play a game.
-
Except you are still backwards applying what has been written of the Clans NOW to then. They were originally written to be much larger- 23 clusters worth of troops & material gets a single mention as if it was insignificant. They also were originally written, in BOK!, to deal with logistics- its part of why the Wolves were performing better than the other three Clans. Its why we get a scene on Tukayyid where Ulric is chewing out Conal for his galaxy/cluster's profligate use of munitions when facing ComStar as well as IIRC not responding to a thrust against a supply base as quickly as Ulric wanted. Artillery for the Clans DID come out during the invasion, WCSB is the source of the Naga.
The Clans never had their touman size spelled out until it was time for the Jaguars to die. THEN we find out the population of the homeworlds is so small, that what the IS can spare can defeat a single top tier Clan . . . all of which was WHY the Clans were never detailed to the public so that authors could hammer them into the narrative as needed. Over half the Wolf touman fell into a black hole in the Refusal War, probably chasing a Falcon galaxy or two that disappeared.
The only point I can agree on is that while the Invasion was supposed to have the Clans winning most the fights, developers might have been expecting too much from players behavior when they sat down to play a game.
Ill admit that if the authors of the invasion had hung a bigger lampshade on their population numbers and backstory, perhaps having Kerensky’s exiles land on top of a very high population but technologically regressed deep space state with mich older origins (to allow for its massive population) and then ‘turned them clan’ - bringing their population up to the size of a march or a minor house... and then poured their star league tech down onto that, say, late 20tb century techbase and bootstrapping HARD - and not had to spend time nuking themselves or scrabbling on low quality worlds.
It would have made it a lot better for me, on the ‘Rhode Island Invades Europe’ side of things. I get that they were written to deal with logistics, I read BoK when it was new... but what I never got is why Bob Clansman can feed x1000 times as many guns with his labor as Jack Spheroid. Even if you care about logistics, someone has to build the guns and powerplants, and everything costs man-hours. Either clan man hours are thousands of times more efficient, or all but a tiny tiny handful of the inner sphere worlds are basically stuck so far behind the tech curve that they are insignificant, militarily - the real strength of any house being maybe 10 worlds, with the rest agrarian feifdoms that do not contribute - which I assume is possible.
You are correct in that in some ways the more we found out about the clans, the more head scratchy it got. For my zero-value headcannon, I just (as above) have them find the Pentagon Worlds with large (billions) pre-existing populations, and take over with their guns to turn those worlds populations into slave factories for their coming return.
-
Its not Rhode Island . . . its more Spain a la Cortez invades Aztec Mexico, the hardware and doctrine tech curve was that steep. You know that one factory on New Avalon that produces hundreds of Valkyries (IIRC) a year but is mostly automated the IS does not understand? THAT is what the Clans still have and understand along with the capital surplus (warships, jumpships & dropships) they took with them from the collapse of the Star League. Heck, they started off with a capital surplus in regards to mechs & armor but that got used up over time though its a matter of the differences between the Clans as to how much of that they ended up banking. Poorer Clans? Not so much, top tier Clans put old Star League and Clan battlemechs into storage- like Wolf Highlanders, or the Adders having enough Lupus to refit as Hellfires before building more.
-
Spoiler alert: neither tactical doctrine nor technological advantages were what allowed the conquistadores' conquests.
What did make the conquests possible was very definitely not described as being done in the Clan OZs.
Granted, it's not hard to explain why the Clans were victorious 99 times out of 100 in pitched battles with the House Armies. But that's not the same thing as explaining how control was exercised over conquered populaces. That question has no satisfactory answer. Especially since the conquistadores' approach doesn't have any canonical support.
Of course the problems of FASAnomics are not limited to the Clans... but the rationales that explain how a small number of troops from a rival House exercise control over a conquered world don't carry over to small numbers of troops from an alien* civilization.
*= usage of the word "alien" is referring to a degree of dissimilarity that the word "foreign" doesn't quite rise to. Rival Houses may be foreign to each other, but they're still part of the same sphereoid "civilization" characterized by the same socio-economic models irrespective of which House happens to control the world.
-
Spoiler alert: neither tactical doctrine nor technological advantages were what allowed the conquistadores' conquests.
Yes, it was tech advantages as long as you allow that politics is another area that benefits from technology. Besides the horse, wheel for transport, metullurgy (steel), firearms and horses Cortez also had a larger experience base.
Cortez came from a more politically advanced culture; Spain had been divided within recent history, Cortez was involved with court politics (as seen by how he controlled the expedition), the political infighting and wars in Italy that created the experiences to produce The Prince, and that Europe was a chaotic changing environment that encouraged adaptability.
He used the hardware to awe the locals as his first slip into the political sphere. Cortez men defeated the initial attacks which proved their strength and then let him try diplomacy to blow the sparks into a bonfire of rebellion. With his European, Cuban natives and some Africans as the steel tip of the spear the natives who hated the Aztec formed the bulk- when he could not get his goals by diplomacy he had a pretty good hammer.
But the point was that Cortez came with a smaller number from a more advanced society and conquered a more numerous foe who were native to their lands (or planets in the IS case).
-
Ill admit that if the authors of the invasion had hung a bigger lampshade on their population numbers and backstory, perhaps having Kerensky’s exiles land on top of a very high population but technologically regressed deep space state with mich older origins (to allow for its massive population) and then ‘turned them clan’ - bringing their population up to the size of a march or a minor house... and then poured their star league tech down onto that, say, late 20tb century techbase and bootstrapping HARD - and not had to spend time nuking themselves or scrabbling on low quality worlds.
It would have made it a lot better for me, on the ‘Rhode Island Invades Europe’ side of things. I get that they were written to deal with logistics, I read BoK when it was new... but what I never got is why Bob Clansman can feed x1000 times as many guns with his labor as Jack Spheroid. Even if you care about logistics, someone has to build the guns and powerplants, and everything costs man-hours. Either clan man hours are thousands of times more efficient, or all but a tiny tiny handful of the inner sphere worlds are basically stuck so far behind the tech curve that they are insignificant, militarily - the real strength of any house being maybe 10 worlds, with the rest agrarian feifdoms that do not contribute - which I assume is possible.
You are correct in that in some ways the more we found out about the clans, the more head scratchy it got. For my zero-value headcannon, I just (as above) have them find the Pentagon Worlds with large (billions) pre-existing populations, and take over with their guns to turn those worlds populations into slave factories for their coming return.
When you've got a couple hundred years of churning out however many sibkos you want, you can grow your population pretty quickly.
-
When you've got a couple hundred years of churning out however many sibkos you want, you can grow your population pretty quickly.
Depends how much corn you can grow.
-
Spoiler alert: neither tactical doctrine nor technological advantages were what allowed the conquistadores' conquests.
What did make the conquests possible was very definitely not described as being done in the Clan OZs.
Granted, it's not hard to explain why the Clans were victorious 99 times out of 100 in pitched battles with the House Armies. But that's not the same thing as explaining how control was exercised over conquered populaces. That question has no satisfactory answer. Especially since the conquistadores' approach doesn't have any canonical support.
Of course the problems of FASAnomics are not limited to the Clans... but the rationales that explain how a small number of troops from a rival House exercise control over a conquered world don't carry over to small numbers of troops from an alien* civilization.
*= usage of the word "alien" is referring to a degree of dissimilarity that the word "foreign" doesn't quite rise to. Rival Houses may be foreign to each other, but they're still part of the same sphereoid "civilization" characterized by the same socio-economic models irrespective of which House happens to control the world.
Until the population numbers were given (in 1999, I believe), there was no reason to think that the Clans didn't have enough troops to occupy the worlds they seized. They literally have clone soldier tech.
Now that I think about it, the average Clan civilian should be a pretty big dude. Clans seem to go through Elementals like crazy, but they'll probably have similar washout rates as Mechwarriors. As I recall, about 80% or so of kids wash out before they get to warrior training. With Mechwarriors that just means you've got a bunch of people with natural athletic ability running around (we have a similar thing today with professional athletes and groupies). But with Elementals you'd probably be creating a lot more sibkos to fill your needs, and they're all gonna grow up to be 8 feet tall. I bet the labor caste are pretty darn huge.
-
Yup, and we know the Elemental size genes breed true since we have freebirths that are just as large. BUT IIRC, Elementals also have a shorter life expectancy irregardless of combat.
-
Its not Rhode Island . . . its more Spain a la Cortez invades Aztec Mexico, the hardware and doctrine tech curve was that steep. You know that one factory on New Avalon that produces hundreds of Valkyries (IIRC) a year but is mostly automated the IS does not understand? THAT is what the Clans still have and understand along with the capital surplus (warships, jumpships & dropships) they took with them from the collapse of the Star League. Heck, they started off with a capital surplus in regards to mechs & armor but that got used up over time though its a matter of the differences between the Clans as to how much of that they ended up banking. Poorer Clans? Not so much, top tier Clans put old Star League and Clan battlemechs into storage- like Wolf Highlanders, or the Adders having enough Lupus to refit as Hellfires before building more.
I respect your willingness to walk into a thread titled ‘Does anyone else dislike My Faction of Choice’ and defend them to the hilt on all fronts. I anticipate that I cannot change your mind on this topic, and will not take any more of your time. I appreciate your point of view, even if I disagree entirely with your priors and your outcomes.
You may take this as a concession if it pleases you to do so.
-
My apologies that it seems that way, you are right that I view what was put down in BoK as representing something different than we got post Refusal War when they started to actually flesh things out. I will readily admit that the implementation of the Clans as a play-able faction seems botched by TPTB, to the point of the facts actually fitting a trope. I was not playing at that time, and nearly every single player from that time frame relates stories about how they could not reconcile disagreements led to the break up of playing groups- and that the Clans attracted the 'flavor of the month' type players. I do wonder how some of those feelings continue to
Outside of the philosophical problems with how the faction is set up- and as a person with 'modern' blinkers I find most the BT political systems objectionable. What was done with the FM series and after is more logically consistent in universe than if you included anything pre-'57 into the same consideration. In fact, post '57 you could say that you are right since the Wolves were hammered during the Jihad when Tamar was burned b/c they did not build other factories (or lost them when they did). The Falcons were better off b/c they did have factories and then the three other Clans that came to the IS they did so as migrations.
-
Spoiler alert: neither tactical doctrine nor technological advantages were what allowed the conquistadores' conquests.
What did make the conquests possible was very definitely not described as being done in the Clan OZs.
Oh. You mean massive casualties to unintentionally introduced European diseases.
-
Oh. You mean massive casualties to unintentionally introduced European diseases.
Andrew Steiner died of clan-pox!
-
Oh. You mean massive casualties to unintentionally introduced European diseases.
Yes... depopulation is one of the biggest single factors that allowed a tiny occupying population to control a much more massive one.
But there were other deliberate factors too which are really quite un-fun to incorporate into what's supposed to be a game.
All in all, it's very much not what was presented in the OZ, so there's no viable historical precedent in the Spanish conquest of the Americas to explain why so few Clanners can control so many sphereoids.
-
Yes... depopulation is one of the biggest single factors that allowed a tiny occupying population to control a much more massive one.
But there were other deliberate factors too which are really quite un-fun to incorporate into what's supposed to be a game.
All in all, it's very much not what was presented in the OZ, so there's no viable historical precedent in the Spanish conquest of the Americas to explain why so few Clanners can control so many sphereoids.
You mean besides a Clan warship removing a city from the face of a planet?
Granted most Clans would not do that, and after the Jags do it most Clans think it was going to far. But how many Sphereoids would know that?
-
You mean besides a Clan warship removing a city from the face of a planet?
Granted most Clans would not do that, and after the Jags do it most Clans think it was going to far. But how many Sphereoids would know that?
In all fairness, that was one of the things I thought the Clan Invasion got ‘right’. Orbitally removing a city violates the entire clan limited war ideal. And if it hadnt stopped there, it would be table flipping time.
Out of universe that would never happen, cause again - flip table, no game.
-
Clans also took a few planets without firing a shot.
-
Clan numbers don't work in more ways than just logistics. In a game already suffering from FASAnomics the Clans are at least 1 order of magnitude smaller again than what they should be compared to the IS, which is itself already 2 orders below anything sensible.
1 of the ways I headcanon it is to inflate Clan population, create a Police subcaste which is not Warrior and therefore off the books, and allow training washouts to enter Solahma in infantry and tank crew roles, again off the books. That gives Clan Mech Clusters enough conventional forces to actually face IS units and hold ground.
-
Spoiler Alert! : almost non of the fluff number in the game are anywhere close to realistic
-
Yes... depopulation is one of the biggest single factors that allowed a tiny occupying population to control a much more massive one.
But there were other deliberate factors too which are really quite un-fun to incorporate into what's supposed to be a game.
All in all, it's very much not what was presented in the OZ, so there's no viable historical precedent in the Spanish conquest of the Americas to explain why so few Clanners can control so many sphereoids.
I said conquer which was the original RI-Europe comparison, not discussing any occupation. The BT Sheeple principle handles that situation.
-
I said conquer which was the original RI-Europe comparison, not discussing any occupation. The BT Sheeple principle handles that situation.
The British took that tactic in New Zealand by populating with actual sheep.
-
Spoiler Alert! : almost non of the fluff number in the game are anywhere close to realistic
Yeah well, the Clans double down that effect even further
-
Yeah well, the Clans double down that effect even further
Only post-Twilight of the Clans. Before that, Clan population numbers were completely undefined. They could have had a population larger than the Inner Sphere for all we knew.
-
Only post-Twilight of the Clans. Before that, Clan population numbers were completely undefined. They could have had a population larger than the Inner Sphere for all we knew.
The tale of how the USN in 1980 picked up the US Army and sailed to an uninhabited version if Greenland where, 300 years later, 10 Billion of them launch an invasion of a world regressed to 1960s technology, while using the weapons they had brought up to around 1990 standards, would be an interesting one.
-
The tale of how the USN in 1980 picked up the US Army and sailed to an uninhabited version if Greenland where, 300 years later, 10 Billion of them launch an invasion of a world regressed to 1960s technology, while using the weapons they had brought up to around 1990 standards, would be an interesting one.
The Clan homeworlds were of an undefined size. And the Clans use industrial scale cloning.
The truth is with Twilight of the Clans, FASA wanted to make them less of a threat so they could move on from that storyline. And then they overdid it.
-
The Clan homeworlds were of an undefined size. And the Clans use industrial scale cloning.
The truth is with Twilight of the Clans, FASA wanted to make them less of a threat so they could move on from that storyline. And then they overdid it.
Im wondering if it costs less (food, energy, man-hours) to grow a person in a machine rather than do it in another person.
Its why I always liked having them find a well populated but not much past late agrarian set of rich earthlike planets. Bootstrap a late agrarian population base to SL tech levels ASAP, and youll get a population that in 3 centuries left alone on rich worlds that would be impressive as all heck. If the original colony ships left very early in the colonization period, you could have I think a large enough base population for compound growth to get you there - and suddenly youve got the invading mongol hordes of the BoK era.
Its a dead certainty that we have now thought longer and at greater depth on the matter than did the writers - and inevitably so, professional time costs money, needy fans will spend time, sometimes well educated and otherwise expensive time, freely and withiut limit.
-
lol, that last bit is true- look at the math related topics! Or Cray's post before he started contributing.
The Star League DID involuntarily relocate some farmers (hey we lack the skillset to survive!) and then for the Cobras you later had the Tanith worlds, but afaik that population never moved off that planet in any sort of numbers. Never addressed afaik would be the Clans raiding the Jarnfolk or Hanseatic League worlds . . . since the Hanseatic were without mechs for quite a while it would have been a great training opportunity for Clan BA and vehicles forces- which should have appealed to the Horses IMO.
-
The clan warrior breeding program has the side benefit of adding the washed-out sibs to the civilian population. With more being decanted every five years, that gives population numbers a major boost. Clan enclaves are like hives in a lot of ways.
-
Only post-Twilight of the Clans. Before that, Clan population numbers were completely undefined. They could have had a population larger than the Inner Sphere for all we knew.
The invasion itself was pretty stupid, with Trinaries of 15 Mechs taking over whole planets
The tale of how the USN in 1980 picked up the US Army and sailed to an uninhabited version if Greenland where, 300 years later, 10 Billion of them launch an invasion of a world regressed to 1960s technology, while using the weapons they had brought up to around 1990 standards, would be an interesting one.
The army of today would frankly massacre the army of WW2/Korea like aliens from outer space
"Sir, my entire army has been wiped out by a regiment of these invaders. Their infantry can see in the dark, all have radios and some kind of electric map, and are all armed with scoped personal automatic rifles as accurate as our snipers. They each carry a one-man mini-bazooka that's more powerful and more accurate, and wear torso armour that means it takes us 3 or 4 direct hits to kill each one. Their bazooka teams could destroy our heaviest tanks from nearly 2 miles out, in pitch black night.
"Each squad of infantry rode into battle in a tank that could burst-fire 3 tank shells at once that penetrated even our heaviest-armoured tanks. They also fired airburst shells that exploded above our trenches or inside a room. They had rockets that were 100% accurate and could destroy an entire house in a single hit. They could sense where our infantry were hiding even behind walls.
"Worse, they had bigger tanks that couldn't be stopped by anything we shot at it. Entire companies of tank destroyers fired at one tank and merely disabled its tracks. It had a cannon which destroyed even our heaviest tanks from 2 miles away; once it even shot through one tank and exploded the tank behind it as well. All of them had automatic machine-guns on top; some of them had a mini-cannon that could destroy our medium tanks. Each tank could generate a smoke-screen that appeared in seconds.
"Their ground forces were supported by vertical flying aircraft that could hover in one spot at treetop height or fly sideways and backwards. They were armed with smart rockets that almost never missed, each one could destroy a tank. A single flying machine carried enough rockets to destroy whole battalions of armoured vehicles, and also carried a cannon just as powerful as any of our tank guns.
"Their artillery had 3 times the range of ours and were so accurate they sometimes destroyed a moving tank with a single shot. A single one of their batteries could sometimes drop 30 to 40 shells on a single target, all at once. The moment my artillery fired, they immediately counter-batteried us accurately within minutes. They have a shell that scatter a dozen bombs or mines strong enough to destroy a tank. They have missiles that can scatter these bombs from 200 miles and wipe out an entire armoured battalion. They even have machine-guns and rockets that can destroy an artillery shell in mid-air.
"Every single one of their aircraft were jets and could fly at night, we couldn't reach them at all with our AA or fighters. Their fighters each had a dozen smart rockets and destroyed us before we even saw them, even from 100 miles away. A single jet could destroy a whole squadron of our best fighters with these missiles that never missed. Their bombers are jet-powered as well, just as fast and invincible. Their smallest fighter-bomber could fire or drop 20 missiles or bombs, each one of which can guide itself to destroy a tank, house, or howitzer. A single bomber can accurately destroy a bridge. Their heavy bombers fly out of reach of our fighters and drop 3 times as many bombs as ours. Their bombing raids hardly ever miss a target.
"They can fight at night as well as in the day. They intercept and triangulate all our radio signals, and crack our codes within hours. Nearly every electric radio or radar we use is jammed. They see through camouflage and walls. They know where our units are better than our own commanders, and even their infantry run rings around us. I lost 3 divisions of troops and barely killed more than a few infantry and a handful of tanks.
"We can't fight against this. We have to surrender."
-
almost non of the fluff number in the game are anywhere close to realistic
What gets me is worlds like Tabayama which employ "most" of its two billion people in running that prefecture's bureaucracy, or Atreus which employs over two billion people supporting imperial ceremonies and another billion supporting bureaucratic operations.
I've heard that bureaucracies get less efficient the bigger they get, but man, I am a little curious what that curve would actually look like.
Its a dead certainty that we have now thought longer and at greater depth on the matter than did the writers
That's not a safe assumption. If nothing else, remember that life was slower before the internet, and the original developers had a number of years to think this over. It's also by no means certain that the depiction is actually unrealistic - there's an awful lot of X factors in this.
-
The invasion itself was pretty stupid, with Trinaries of 15 Mechs taking over whole planets
Circular argument considering someone already brought up 3rd SW fights where a lance of mechs could determine the fate of a planet
If Battlemech are unstoppable war machine that can only be counter by other Battlemechs as in a good chunk of intro fluff, it makes sense. Unfortunately this kills combined arms so we get these bi-polar stories of a hand full of mechs holding a planet until somehow a scrappy infantry unit shows up.
Fasa already screwed up the numbers so unless you are in the 'Retcon everything!' camp (I'm not) just hand wave it and ask nicely for CGL to do a better job with the next era.
-
someone already brought up 3rd SW fights where a lance of mechs could determine the fate of a planet
Dunno about 3rd, but going by 4th SW, I thought battalion and regiment sized planetary assaults were more common.
-
Dunno about 3rd, but going by 4th SW, I thought battalion and regiment sized planetary assaults were more common.
..and how many Battledroid old hats on this forum posted they hated the 4th SW for the same reason they hate Clan Invasion?
I'm acknowledging the numbers are all over the place but that was Fasa and the number never made sense when you compared different number of different writers. It's right up there with AC bore size and the BT map vs actual star charts.
-
When the writers and devs needed the Clans to be an unstoppable juggernaut, they were. When that needed to change, it did. I read the whole story novel by novel growing up. I wondered at a lot of things, but accepted it all as a good yarn that I was glad to have read.
-
cleanup
-
..and how many Battledroid old hats on this forum posted they hated the 4th SW for the same reason they hate Clan Invasion?
I'm acknowledging the numbers are all over the place but that was Fasa and the number never made sense when you compared different number of different writers. It's right up there with AC bore size and the BT map vs actual star charts.
That does raise an interesting point. It seems at times the authors couldnt decide if the Clans were invading the 3025 inner sphere (Knights in Ancestral Mechs mustered to call of feudal lord, Knight and Knight Companions fighting for fate of world!) or a 4SW inner sphere, with soldiers and leaders and logistics and combined arms and an actual military.
Stylistically, the Mongol Hordes vs Knights makes more sense - and the IS getting rolled hard there makes thematic sense. But Egomanical individualist gloryhound warriors roll over professional military teamwork soldiers is a sentence that makes people go “Thats not how this works, thats not how any of this works!” - cause face it, if you decide who your general is by who can win a fist fight, odds of getting the best leadership is poor - you get the best fist fighters...
So since the writers couldnt decide which inner sphere they were invading, we got completely incoherent versions of the Clans so every reader can find data to support their own prejudices, whether they think of the Clans as the perfect genetic ubermensch supersoliders with flawless logistics and operational art, or a collection of bad caricatures of the worst of bully-bro culture who are unqualified to form a pickup football league, much less a military, and who succeed only by regular and brutal author favoritism and fiat. Because of the writing we got, both sides are arguably right.
-
The Clan homeworlds were of an undefined size. And the Clans use industrial scale cloning.
The truth is with Twilight of the Clans, FASA wanted to make them less of a threat so they could move on from that storyline. And then they overdid it.
They wanted to have them wiped out entirely in the original outline, did they not?
-
I hav always hated the clans especially the smoke Jaguars. They got what they had coming to them. The fact that every thing that they have is better or more advanced really just set them over the top. Now I don't mind using their stuff and I don't mind fighting against them as much as I hate them
-
The tale of how the USN in 1980 picked up the US Army and sailed to an uninhabited version if Greenland where, 300 years later, 10 Billion of them launch an invasion of a world regressed to 1960s technology, while using the weapons they had brought up to around 1990 standards, would be an interesting one.
Running that thought down, 2,050,000 people would take that trip if you include the Air Force and USMC; 1,304,000 just USN/Army. Planetary population growth has been on a decline the last 50 years, from a peak of around 2.2% at the end of the 1960s down to under 1.1% today. Split the difference, I suppose, and take 1.65% annual...that gets you to 278 million starting with the whole military and 177 million with the lower number.
Now, we boost that with the mass-production of population above and beyond doing it the fun way, what numbers do we need to hit ten billion? ...The answer is not very much. At 2,050,000 starting population, we only need a minor bump over the peak human production in the '60s - 2.87% net population growth over 300 years brings you to your ten billion figure. For the smaller figure, 3.03% net growth.
So, there it is. An increase in population growth rates only about 25-35% over human peak efforts is all you need; that means your vat-grown trueborns would be a minority of folks in the Homeworlds. The numbers are adjustable, of course; the general attitude toward freeborn folks would plunge natural birth rates...but again, you're barely breaking 3% in a low-end estimate for total growth. I can't see an iron-womb operation NOT hitting those numbers, especially after the first hundred years of mass production.
On that note, just how many people did the Clans start off with, anyway? Granted most of the population was gutted in the Pentagon, and you'd really be starting off with post-Klondike levels as a low point, but still.
-
I don't mind the Clans anymore then I minded the Word of Blake, the Society, or the silliness that became the Republic of the Sphere under "I'm King Arthur" Devlin Stone and his amazing appearance out of nowhere to save the day. They're part of the story and tech that makes Battletech into an ever rotating wheel of disruption, as that's was history is: Change.
Clan tech by 3150 is either in production or available to the IS, (or even many realms in the Periphery) from Clan enclaves, Sea Fox traders, salvage from dead clans like the Nova Cats, or the melding of cultures such as the Rasalhauge Dominion or the Raven Alliance. So if you need to get a Mad Cat II or a Savage Wolf to fight off whatever insane animal lord built from questionable genetic combinations has taken over your space, you can do that. When 3250 comes along, we'll see even more of it in the IS, unless everyone has a panic attack and starts using 3025 tech again for a whiff of unneeded nostalgia.
The Clans and the Helm Core allowed Battletech to lift itself out of the stasis the game was in circa 1990, adding in lots of new options to move us away from the same AC/5 we had been shooting each other with since 1984. I've played since Battledroids, and I don't find any fault with the current or previous timelines. Of course, I have bad luck in picking factions, since I always choose the ones that have fake House Lords duplicates (Marik) social generals (Steiner), or get killed off in fratricidal wars like my poor Clan Blood Spirit or Comstar. Man I liked Comstar.
-
Running that thought down, 2,050,000 people would take that trip if you include the Air Force and USMC; 1,304,000 just USN/Army. Planetary population growth has been on a decline the last 50 years, from a peak of around 2.2% at the end of the 1960s down to under 1.1% today. Split the difference, I suppose, and take 1.65% annual...that gets you to 278 million starting with the whole military and 177 million with the lower number.
Now, we boost that with the mass-production of population above and beyond doing it the fun way, what numbers do we need to hit ten billion? ...The answer is not very much. At 2,050,000 starting population, we only need a minor bump over the peak human production in the '60s - 2.87% net population growth over 300 years brings you to your ten billion figure. For the smaller figure, 3.03% net growth.
So, there it is. An increase in population growth rates only about 25-35% over human peak efforts is all you need; that means your vat-grown trueborns would be a minority of folks in the Homeworlds. The numbers are adjustable, of course; the general attitude toward freeborn folks would plunge natural birth rates...but again, you're barely breaking 3% in a low-end estimate for total growth. I can't see an iron-womb operation NOT hitting those numbers, especially after the first hundred years of mass production.
On that note, just how many people did the Clans start off with, anyway? Granted most of the population was gutted in the Pentagon, and you'd really be starting off with post-Klondike levels as a low point, but still.
IIRC Klondike said 3.5 million, after all the fighting. But the general bias against freeborn is a warrior thing as is the iron wombs. The general population had to do it the old fashion way. So in order to double the population in a generation, generally 20 years, every couple needs to produce 4 kids.
The warrior's iron wombs would not add much to the population. Again it has been awhile since I read the clan source books, so if IIRC one of them said that sibcos run about 12-100 warriors, with a generation being 5 years. So compared to a normal 20 year generation that is 48-400 x 20 clans= 96-8000 x how ever many sibcos each clan has, compared to the millions of civilians.
Personally, I think the first century should have been just focused on building infrastructure and population with most clan tech coming about a hundred years later than it is listed. I think it is Cray who has said how important population is to tech development. At doubling their population every generation, it would have taken about a hundred years to hit 100 million.
-
Personally the clan mech design is part of what is attracting me to come to battletech. My first MechWarrior experiance was MechWarrior 3 and I loved the puma, daishi, and madcat. Being able to use those on the tabletop and paint them is awesome.... plus the names and logos are sooooo much cooler than the is stuff to me (except House Kurita/the draconis combine)
-
.
Personally, I think the first century should have been just focused on building infrastructure and population with most clan tech coming about a hundred years later than it is listed. I think it is Cray who has said how important population is to tech development. At doubling their population every generation, it would have taken about a hundred years to hit 100 million.
I would have liked that too. The progression of tech just seems way to fast. It's like the Star League going from prototype Star League tech at the beginning of the Reunification War and finishing with Clan Tech. At that pace the SLDF Regulars should have Third League Tech should have spread to all the houses and the periphery long before the league collapsed.
-
The warrior's iron wombs would not add much to the population. Again it has been awhile since I read the clan source books, so if IIRC one of them said that sibcos run about 12-100 warriors, with a generation being 5 years. So compared to a normal 20 year generation that is 48-400 x 20 clans= 96-8000 x how ever many sibcos each clan has, compared to the millions of civilians.
Okay, this seems to be a frequent misconception . . . the Clans do not crank the iron wombs up every five years- they cram one of our 'freebirth' generations into 5 years. And sibko size depends on the Clan, 100 is a typical number to be decanted but I want to say BoK talked about one of 200 that mixed bloodnames- Vlad, Evantha, Ranna and Carew all came out of the same sibko/facility. Though that is a early bit of material and likely could be interpreted that they all came out of a primary facility at the same time and interacted with each other. Other material state that Nic started it to beef out the toumans as part of preparation for Klondike, and so the Founder's biological children soon found themselves competing with what would come to be called trueborns. Which means he devoted a LOT of effort to pushing that program (and probably started the seeds of their superiority complex, another way to re-organize society by mad Nicky) to get the iron wombs that wide spread and pumping out kids.
Take that 100 . . . its often down to 20 as it gets into the advanced mech training, so you have washed out or killed 80% by that point. Still more of that final cut will wash out. Lets just say that half of the original sibko survives to wash out. That is still 50 new bodies added to the civilian castes for each sibko and say they just crank them once a year. So by the time the Golden Century rolls around you should be able to say the breeding programs are in full swing- ignore the weirdos like the Vipers, Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills- and you are going to get 50 new civilians from each sibko at a training facility . . . I think minor facilities were 3 sibkos & under while major could get into the teens? Honestly you would expect the premier Clans like the Jaguars (though maybe not since they IMO would kill more in training), Bears, Wolves, Falcons, Adders, Sharks and Coyotes to the the most/largest training facilities probably dropping 1000 new civies for each premier Clan into the system a year just using that 50 survive to washout number, assuming each pumps 20 sibkos a year. Using those numbers means that their trueborn replacement numbers between 20-80 warriors a year, which I am not sure really works. Additionally, the Scientists mandate certain pairings among the civilian castes to keep the gene pool churning and so the civilians have mandated breeding kids but also have kids that are not arranged by the scientists- and the population is set for growth. So that means at least 3 children (since replacement rate is 2.6 children) so either the scientists plan 2 kids for each couple and expect 1 'free association' mating or they plan for each adult to reproduce 3 times. The 'free association' kids are then just a bonus, are a sociological pressure vent, and encourage compliance b/c they are children the adult may be more likely to care about.
As pointed out, Cray has demonstrated several times that the tech level and sophistication you can achieve is dependent on population (I remember the microchip example) because it functions like a pyramid. Part of why those premier Clans are premier is that in their drive to field large toumans they also bred the supporting population they needed via iron womb.
-
The invasion itself was pretty stupid, with Trinaries of 15 Mechs taking over whole planets.
Huh. I remember some defenders actually abiding by the bidding process. To the point that one world was ceded with a Football game.
-
I figured that the five year warrior generation is partly so you do not end up with your entire clan touman raising kids.
The reason for the five year misconception probably comes from it being mentioned in the novels, not sure about the source books.
-
The five year generation is stupid and nonsensical. Those five year olds aren't making a new generation. They don't even know which ones of those kindergartners is going to win a bloodname and pass on their genes, let alone actually mixing the genes and birthing Generation X from the Baby Boomers.
-
As pointed out, Cray has demonstrated several times that the tech level and sophistication you can achieve is dependent on population (I remember the microchip example) because it functions like a pyramid. Part of why those premier Clans are premier is that in their drive to field large toumans they also bred the supporting population they needed via iron womb.
I know the Scientist Cast assigned pairings to "enhance" the clans population but I can't recall anywhere where it says that Ironwombs were used for civilians. It always seemed like Ironwombs were strictly used to create warriors. It would also have taken time to create enough Ironwombs to depend upon them to create their frontline troops. They also wouldn't build to many so as to exceed their poor resources. That would keep their numbers small even if they are in the thousands.
-
I figure the generation is a misnomer they are using for 'new gene shuffle where the scientists shook the beaker in a different way.' To be honest, I am not sure if its something I am extrapolating or understanding b/c of family farm experience managing the line breeding on livestock & dogs. Its more like what you can do with a 'generation' of tech.
Depending on the livestock you are not going to know how effective your breeding is for 3-7 years depending on species. BUT you can learn some of what does not work based on juvenile traits, and you are going to use that to know if you are going to repeat the breeding or shift to a different genetic donor. So they can learn things about 3, 4 and 5 year olds based on demeanor, reflexes, and a few other developmental things that allow them to decided if the pairing should be repeated- but its honestly going to be a lot of guess work.
Best example I can think of-
Maternal donor is Kerensky 1 and paternal donor is Ward 2. The scientists plan to use that pairing for 25% of each Kerensky sibko for the 5 years. The other 75% is made up of 3 other Kerensky pairings with other paternal donors. From 2 y/o & up the sibkos are tested on senses and reflexes every year to compare their developmental progress. They would be tested on the ability to complete puzzles- in fact, IMO the sibkos would look a LOT like Kurt Russell's old movie Soldier during the beginning. So now you have some metrics on how the child is developing. Twenty-five prospective future Kerenskys from that pairing and 100 over all, and I think they start washing out at this point. IMO they would send any child whose reflexes were slowing . . . would they cull the bottom 5% of reflex testing? would you have to be in the bottom 5% of sensory, reflex and puzzle testing? But that is for that sibko's warrior selection, what we are looking at is 'generation' planning.
The scientists would take the result of having 4 Kerensky pairings and would rank them on results- Kerensky/Ward had no children in that bottom 5% (in fact, none of them were in the bottom 10%!), Kerensky/Kufahl's results nearly matched Kerensky/Ward, and Kerensky/Vickers was clearly in 3rd with gaps between 2nd & 4th test results. While Kerensky/Carns was a disaster- 4 of the bottom 5 were from that pairing and only a few children broke the 60th percentile. Obviously repeating the Kerensky 4/Carns 18 breeding is not a good idea and the note will be amended to the Carns 18 profile to avoid crossing with Kerensky in general and Kerensky 4 specifically. Validation of the speculation will be determined with further testing and if any of the remaining 21 Kerensky/Carns children test out as a warrior.
After those 5 years, kick over to the next breeding plan . . . with the results of the testing on the previous generation, the scientists decide to comb their records and plan for this new generation to go to thirds for this next Kerensky sibko generation (at least for Alpha Super Training Site). They are taking Kerensky A (ancestor of Kerensky 1 & a Kafuhl) to be paired to Ward B (same Ward ancestor as Ward 2 but crossed with Mehta which showed high reflex scores). The goal here is to build on the reflex results of the previous generation by bringing in the high reflex testing Mehta line while hopefully having the Kerensky/Ward/Kufahl's high problem solving scores overcome that Mehta weakness.
I honestly wonder if the 5 year generations was pulled from the communist 5 year plan methods.
But yeah, Soldier's orphan training program is pretty much what you would get from the sibko IMO.
RifleMech- No the scientist assigned pairings carried things out the old fashioned way. Just like the early Clan warriors did since the iron wombs were supposed to supplement the natural birth rate increase of the touman. Instead it came to supplant the natural birth warriors, and like I said I think it would make IC sense for Nicky to be sneaky to push that program as a way further re-organize his society.
Edited for some clarity
-
Well let's take a look at the size of Clan forces, and reason from there as to how many sibkos you'd need. I'm doing the math as I type this out, so we'll all be surprised as to what the results are.
The Jade Falcon sourcebook lists their touman as having 3 Galaxies, pre-Tukayyid. This seems pretty small, but these are their elite, front-line warriors. As I recall, the Smoke Jaguars had 5 Galaxies. I think it's probably safer to say that these are the forces that fought on Tukayyid. It can't be all of their military, because those units can't be fighting Comstar for the right to be ilClan at the same time that they're occupying a massive chunk of Inner Sphere worlds. So instead let's say that those 3 Galaxies represent the tip of the spear. They're the prestige units, the best of the best.
As a side note: Sarna states that after the Refusal War, the Falcons were heavily depleted, being reduced to only ten Galaxies. So obviously there are some disagreements as far as numbers go.
So let's say that your average invading Clan at full strength has 3-4 Galaxies of front line units, twice that in secondary forces, and then that second group again for homeworld armies. So the Falcons would have had 3 Galaxies at the front, 6-8 for second line forces that occupy the planets they've taken, and then another 6-8 Galaxies back on the homeworlds. As I recall from... somewhere (?), part of the Invasion was the institution of a rule that the homeworld Clans couldn't attack the invading Clans while they were off fighting their holy crusade. But I don't know where that is and maybe I just made it up. Still I don't think any of the invading Clans would trust that enough to leave their homeworlds unoccupied.
So with those assumptions in place, that means the Falcons would have had about 18 Galaxies worth of material when they began the Invasion. 3 front line, 6-8 backup, and 6-8 at home. That means the Falcons probably would have had between 3000 and 4000 mechwarriors, and probably two to three times that amount in Elementals. We won't worry about unarmored infantry or vehicle crews for now, as I don't think we're told enough about them to really know where they come from. I assume they're mostly made up of dirty freebirths. Aerospace pilots would be a smaller number than mechwarriors, so let's say there are about 1000 of them. So that's roughly... 15,000 trueborn warriors, give or take.
Now the average Clan warrior has a career of maybe 10 years before he's considered "old". And let's say that after 20 years, you're either high up in the Clan leadership or you're on your way to a solahma unit. Plus they seem to have pretty high casualty rates (especially among Elementals). And fighting over Bloodnames tends to be pretty ruthless as well, with a lot of hotshot pilots keen on murdering each other during these competitions. It's a very violent society. So let's assume that their breeding program is set up to replace their entire army every ten years.
If Aidan's sibko is representative of the norm, then you start with 100 kids and you expect to get roughly 2 warriors out of it. Most of the kids get shuffled off to other castes before real warrior training begins. So you go from 100 down to about 20, with any kid who is too slow or clumsy, or just too nice and easygoing sent off to be something else (supposedly there's no shame in being sent away at this stage -- you're just better suited to serve the Clan in another role). With the last 20 kids, you get maybe a 50% survival rate as things turn lethal in a hurry. So let's say that about 80 kids from each sibko are expected to enter civilian society. That leaves some room for error.
If you're going to replace 15,000 people, and you expect 2 successes per sibko, that means you'll be cranking out about 750,000 vat babies every 10 years. Just for your Clan. So if 80% of them are joining civilian life, that's an extra 600,000 people every ten years. Now, that's not a huge amount, but it's a constant addition to your population. And we know they are in the habit of having frequent and irresponsible sex, so it can be expected that they'll cause their own little population booms as they enter society.
--
Are there problems with this analysis? Of course. For one, we know the Clans use freeborn warriors, even in Battlemechs. We don't know what percentage that is, but we know it happens. Horse was a mechwarrior even before the Invasion. So they don't have to replace everybody with a vat baby. For another, some of my estimates are wild-ass guesses, and the Falcons are supposed to be one of the strongest Clans, so maybe my estimates are too high there too.
But in my favor, I think, is the fact that the Invasion was unexpected. The Clans didn't ramp up production, the Outbound Light appeared and the Clans were like "we have to attack NOW". This means that whatever strength the Clans attacked with, they were probably maintaining the entire time. Aidan's sibko wasn't grown specially for the Invasion, that was just regular day to day operations. It's also something that seems pretty easy to "scale up" for higher birth rates, which is something the Clans would have been doing a lot in the early days.
The numbers are easy enough to fudge one way or another. If you assume they expect one warrior per sibko instead of two, then you double the number of people you're adding to the civilian population. If you shoot for replacement every five years instead of every ten (which allows for high casualties in inter-Clan fighting and various trials) then you double it again.
The two biggest advantages it gives the Clans though, are 1) it adds a large number of people very early on. The early Clans would have had fairly small populations and you're basically able to fake "immigration" gains by popping out a bunch of test tube kids. Adding an extra half-million people every ten years is going to be huge when you've only got about 5 million people total in your Clan (and it'll be an enormous difference in your population 300 years later). The second is you're able to support a larger military because you've somewhat divorced your fighting forces from the population in general. Your civilian population doesn't have to be as large, because most of your warriors aren't coming from them. You just grow however many you need.
-
They would be tested on the ability to complete puzzles- in fact, IMO the sibkos would look a LOT like Kurt Russell's old movie Soldier during the beginning.
I agree with you, but it pains me to hear somebody call that movie old. That movie was made in (looks it up) 1998. That's only like 5 years ago, right?
Great movie, by the way.
-
Lol, the ONLY reason I called it old was I looked for a picture of young 'Todd' sitting at a desk putting a puzzle together or I think it was re-assembling a pistol. Because let's be honest, THAT is the type puzzle you would give a young Clan warrior. So while I was looking for a picture (and laughing at Snake Plisken pictures) I kept seeing '1998' so yeah . . .
-
RifleMech- No the scientist assigned pairings carried things out the old fashioned way. Just like the early Clan warriors did since the iron wombs were supposed to supplement the natural birth rate increase of the touman. Instead it came to supplant the natural birth warriors, and like I said I think it would make IC sense for Nicky to be sneaky to push that program as a way further re-organize his society.
Edited for some clarity
Thanks. That's what I thought. I can also see Nicky pushing the Ironwombs to re=organize his society. I think it'd take time before trueborns could take over like they have. I don't think it'd be an overnight or even a one generation thing.
-
If I recall rightly, either in the Field Manuals or in the Wolf or Falcon source book, something was mentioned about provisional garrison clusters being assigned to each world. My impression is that they pulled those from the population of a planet or holding as needed. I'll have to look it up.
Here's what Sarna says about them. (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Provisional_Garrison_Cluster)
-
Provisional Garrison Clusters are made up of clan troops, old trueborns and freebirths.
-
I think some of the confusion of the clan force size is that originally it was just front line, then they included second line and PGCs. So some of the early stuff that says 3-5 galaxy's that is just front line, while the stuff in the teens is probably everything.
-
It doesn't help that Field Manuals Warden and Crusader Clans refer to some clusters in frontline galaxies as police clusters.
-
The invasion itself was pretty stupid, with Trinaries of 15 Mechs taking over whole planets
The army of today would frankly massacre the army of WW2/Korea like aliens from outer space
"Sir, my entire army has been wiped out by a regiment of these invaders. Their infantry can see in the dark, all have radios and some kind of electric map, and are all armed with scoped personal automatic rifles as accurate as our snipers. They each carry a one-man mini-bazooka that's more powerful and more accurate, and wear torso armour that means it takes us 3 or 4 direct hits to kill each one. Their bazooka teams could destroy our heaviest tanks from nearly 2 miles out, in pitch black night.
"Each squad of infantry rode into battle in a tank that could burst-fire 3 tank shells at once that penetrated even our heaviest-armoured tanks. They also fired airburst shells that exploded above our trenches or inside a room. They had rockets that were 100% accurate and could destroy an entire house in a single hit. They could sense where our infantry were hiding even behind walls.
"Worse, they had bigger tanks that couldn't be stopped by anything we shot at it. Entire companies of tank destroyers fired at one tank and merely disabled its tracks. It had a cannon which destroyed even our heaviest tanks from 2 miles away; once it even shot through one tank and exploded the tank behind it as well. All of them had automatic machine-guns on top; some of them had a mini-cannon that could destroy our medium tanks. Each tank could generate a smoke-screen that appeared in seconds.
"Their ground forces were supported by vertical flying aircraft that could hover in one spot at treetop height or fly sideways and backwards. They were armed with smart rockets that almost never missed, each one could destroy a tank. A single flying machine carried enough rockets to destroy whole battalions of armoured vehicles, and also carried a cannon just as powerful as any of our tank guns.
"Their artillery had 3 times the range of ours and were so accurate they sometimes destroyed a moving tank with a single shot. A single one of their batteries could sometimes drop 30 to 40 shells on a single target, all at once. The moment my artillery fired, they immediately counter-batteried us accurately within minutes. They have a shell that scatter a dozen bombs or mines strong enough to destroy a tank. They have missiles that can scatter these bombs from 200 miles and wipe out an entire armoured battalion. They even have machine-guns and rockets that can destroy an artillery shell in mid-air.
"Every single one of their aircraft were jets and could fly at night, we couldn't reach them at all with our AA or fighters. Their fighters each had a dozen smart rockets and destroyed us before we even saw them, even from 100 miles away. A single jet could destroy a whole squadron of our best fighters with these missiles that never missed. Their bombers are jet-powered as well, just as fast and invincible. Their smallest fighter-bomber could fire or drop 20 missiles or bombs, each one of which can guide itself to destroy a tank, house, or howitzer. A single bomber can accurately destroy a bridge. Their heavy bombers fly out of reach of our fighters and drop 3 times as many bombs as ours. Their bombing raids hardly ever miss a target.
"They can fight at night as well as in the day. They intercept and triangulate all our radio signals, and crack our codes within hours. Nearly every electric radio or radar we use is jammed. They see through camouflage and walls. They know where our units are better than our own commanders, and even their infantry run rings around us. I lost 3 divisions of troops and barely killed more than a few infantry and a handful of tanks.
"We can't fight against this. We have to surrender."
This is one of the greatest posts in the history of this forum.
-
So if 80% of them are joining civilian life, that's an extra 600,000 people every ten years. Now, that's not a huge amount, but it's a constant addition to your population. And we know they are in the habit of having frequent and irresponsible sex, so it can be expected that they'll cause their own little population booms as they enter society.
Not necessarily. The females are largely kept natively infertile, and have to be treated to be fertile. The males apparently are not, but having to deal with freebirth can be somewhat traumatic to a significant proportion of them who were raised denigrating the entire concept. This could lead to a lot of them being a bit more careful of timing their actions.
-
When the writers and devs needed the Clans to be an unstoppable juggernaut, they were.
This is very true, basically the Clans suffer from the same 'dying race' issue that most Elves/Space Elves have.
With Elves/Space Elves its often written that the death of a single one of them is a great tragedy and helps bring their people that one step closer to extinction. Eight pages later, you've got several million of them being offed in a terrible war and they just go "Meh!" How many of these ancient people are there? Always enough.
Same with the Clans, sure its just massive handwavium but how many Clan people are there to make REVIVAL even seem remotely viable. Just enough.
-
The invasion itself was pretty stupid, with Trinaries of 15 Mechs taking over whole planets
The army of today would frankly massacre the army of WW2/Korea like aliens from outer space
"Sir, my entire army has been wiped out by a regiment of these invaders. Their infantry can see in the dark, all have radios and some kind of electric map, and are all armed with scoped personal automatic rifles as accurate as our snipers. They each carry a one-man mini-bazooka that's more powerful and more accurate, and wear torso armour that means it takes us 3 or 4 direct hits to kill each one. Their bazooka teams could destroy our heaviest tanks from nearly 2 miles out, in pitch black night.
"Each squad of infantry rode into battle in a tank that could burst-fire 3 tank shells at once that penetrated even our heaviest-armoured tanks. They also fired airburst shells that exploded above our trenches or inside a room. They had rockets that were 100% accurate and could destroy an entire house in a single hit. They could sense where our infantry were hiding even behind walls.
"Worse, they had bigger tanks that couldn't be stopped by anything we shot at it. Entire companies of tank destroyers fired at one tank and merely disabled its tracks. It had a cannon which destroyed even our heaviest tanks from 2 miles away; once it even shot through one tank and exploded the tank behind it as well. All of them had automatic machine-guns on top; some of them had a mini-cannon that could destroy our medium tanks. Each tank could generate a smoke-screen that appeared in seconds.
"Their ground forces were supported by vertical flying aircraft that could hover in one spot at treetop height or fly sideways and backwards. They were armed with smart rockets that almost never missed, each one could destroy a tank. A single flying machine carried enough rockets to destroy whole battalions of armoured vehicles, and also carried a cannon just as powerful as any of our tank guns.
"Their artillery had 3 times the range of ours and were so accurate they sometimes destroyed a moving tank with a single shot. A single one of their batteries could sometimes drop 30 to 40 shells on a single target, all at once. The moment my artillery fired, they immediately counter-batteried us accurately within minutes. They have a shell that scatter a dozen bombs or mines strong enough to destroy a tank. They have missiles that can scatter these bombs from 200 miles and wipe out an entire armoured battalion. They even have machine-guns and rockets that can destroy an artillery shell in mid-air.
"Every single one of their aircraft were jets and could fly at night, we couldn't reach them at all with our AA or fighters. Their fighters each had a dozen smart rockets and destroyed us before we even saw them, even from 100 miles away. A single jet could destroy a whole squadron of our best fighters with these missiles that never missed. Their bombers are jet-powered as well, just as fast and invincible. Their smallest fighter-bomber could fire or drop 20 missiles or bombs, each one of which can guide itself to destroy a tank, house, or howitzer. A single bomber can accurately destroy a bridge. Their heavy bombers fly out of reach of our fighters and drop 3 times as many bombs as ours. Their bombing raids hardly ever miss a target.
"They can fight at night as well as in the day. They intercept and triangulate all our radio signals, and crack our codes within hours. Nearly every electric radio or radar we use is jammed. They see through camouflage and walls. They know where our units are better than our own commanders, and even their infantry run rings around us. I lost 3 divisions of troops and barely killed more than a few infantry and a handful of tanks.
"We can't fight against this. We have to surrender."
Yes, great post but the answer is asymmetric warfare. Low tech guerilla forces have out lasted a lot of high tech in the real world.
I have a degree in history and have been accused of wanting too much verisimilitude in my BT. Guilty as charged. But the clans are an abomination in my opinon. Just my opinion, to each their own.
-
Yes, great post but the answer is asymmetric warfare. Low tech guerilla forces have out lasted a lot of high tech in the real world.
I beg to differ. High-tech forces have inflicted an enormous toll on low-tech guerillas. There are a few cases around the world of successfully suppressed insurgencies. The cases of successful insurgencies that I think we all know of, IMO are a result of lack of political will and therefore lack of resources to properly prosecute the battle.
But I'm don't think BT's ruleset is capable of modelling such a conflict, so it's a good thing we don't have that in the BTverse.
-
And insurgency's only work when a large enough section of the populace wants to fight back. Battletech has established that the average citizen does not care about whose flag they are flying, until the Capellan's gain guerrilla movements as part of their factional flavour in the 3060's. While their were resistance movements, and the Ghost Bears are still dealing with them. most citizens in the Commonwealth, Republic, and Combine simply preferred to keep on living life as normally as they could instead of fighting back with irregular warfare and die. Which makes sense when the conquering army disappeared fairly quickly after destroying your garrison in a few minutes, and the new system often involved lifting cultural restrictions that citizens would have chafed against.
-
I beg to differ. High-tech forces have inflicted an enormous toll on low-tech guerillas. There are a few cases around the world of successfully suppressed insurgencies. The cases of successful insurgencies that I think we all know of, IMO are a result of lack of political will and therefore lack of resources to properly prosecute the battle.
But I'm don't think BT's ruleset is capable of modelling such a conflict, so it's a good thing we don't have that in the BTverse.
Precisely. I didn't mean to imply it was the tech, it's political will, or lack there of and the clans don't, or rather wouldn't have the will, in my opinion, if they were forces to confront a serious insurgency.
And insurgency's only work when a large enough section of the populace wants to fight back. Battletech has established that the average citizen does not care about whose flag they are flying, until the Capellan's gain guerrilla movements as part of their factional flavour in the 3060's. While their were resistance movements, and the Ghost Bears are still dealing with them. most citizens in the Commonwealth, Republic, and Combine simply preferred to keep on living life as normally as they could instead of fighting back with irregular warfare and die. Which makes sense when the conquering army disappeared fairly quickly after destroying your garrison in a few minutes, and the new system often involved lifting cultural restrictions that citizens would have chafed against.
And counter insurgencies only work when there are large enough number of troops to police the people even when the insurgents are far outnumbered by the soldiers. The generally accepted ratio in the real world is something like 1 soldier per 2000 people. All the clans couldn't muster enough solders to garrison most any world in the Inner Sphere.
Just my opinion on a fictional world.
-
Insurgencies work when there is someone on the outside footing the bill.
-
And counter insurgencies only work when there are large enough number of troops to police the people even when the insurgents are far outnumbered by the soldiers.
Sure, if insurgencies were common. They explicitly aren't in the Battletech universe. If companies could take worlds in the Third Succession War, and the Fourth Succession War could capture worlds from the Capellan Confederation, which is stated to have fanatical insurgent groups, then the Clans taking worlds is not unrealistic. Disliking the Clans is a valid opinion, one I absolutely don't share but valid none the less, but disliking them for being unrealistically successful at capturing planets in Battletech is kind of silly.
-
Yes, great post but the answer is asymmetric warfare. Low tech guerilla forces have out lasted a lot of high tech in the real world.
I have a degree in history and have been accused of wanting too much verisimilitude in my BT. Guilty as charged. But the clans are an abomination in my opinon. Just my opinion, to each their own.
Trying to avoid a Rule 4 violation here, but in the real world, insurgencies succeed because of other factors. The most important condition is that the more powerful side isn't willing to commit genocide on the less advanced side. Then couple that with the less advanced side is often defending resource poor countries that don't really have anything worth taking. Or the less advanced side is getting equipment from a more powerful backer. Or the more advanced side can't act fully without bringing other parties into the war.
-
Sure, if insurgencies were common. They explicitly aren't in the Battletech universe. If companies could take worlds in the Third Succession War, and the Fourth Succession War could capture worlds from the Capellan Confederation, which is stated to have fanatical insurgent groups, then the Clans taking worlds is not unrealistic. Disliking the Clans is a valid opinion, one I absolutely don't share but valid none the less, but disliking them for being unrealistically successful at capturing planets in Battletech is kind of silly.
Indeed. It was only a few decades before the Clan invasion where Lances were considered sufficient to capture many worlds, and deploying whole regiments was absolutely unheard of for the longest time. In fact, I believe this is commented on by Victor in one of books, the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy, in fact.
If a Lance can take a world, a Trinary would have an easy time. At the start of the Invasion, a Trinary was the equivalent of the average Spheroid Battalion. Upgrade kits were slowly dribbling out, and were often limited by national boundaries as much as finances.
-
...but disliking them for being unrealistically successful at capturing planets in Battletech is kind of silly.
Granted, but they do turn it up to levels of silly over and above the established universe norm.
Trying to avoid a Rule 4 violation here, but in the real world, insurgencies succeed because of other factors. The most important condition is that the more powerful side isn't willing to commit genocide on the less advanced side. Then couple that with the less advanced side is often defending resource poor countries that don't really have anything worth taking. Or the less advanced side is getting equipment from a more powerful backer. Or the more advanced side can't act fully without bringing other parties into the war.
We can leave genocide aside, since there are other successful population access and control methods, e.g. resettlement camps and villes.
The second point, what is "worth taking" or not is subjective. More often, the "advanced side" aka official authority decides the insurgency/asymmetric war is not worth the resources - political as well as material - needed to finish it. But it's usually considered worth it when it's a matter of national survival.
Insurgents getting equipment from external backers muddies up the water a bit. Some insurgents get so much equipment the war is practically a conventional war, as opposed to an asymmetric war, which is not what we originally meant. Which begs the question, where is the line? Against a garrison force of say, 15 Mechs, what is threshold before the balance is no longer considered asymmetrical? 5 Mechs? 3? 1?
The last point basically goes back to the second, that of resources, in this case political capital or the notion of war with another enemy.
In short, it's rare for asymmetric wars or insurgencies to be won on military strength. It's usually politics that has the most influence. And that's not something the BT system can model, so it's not something that features much in the BT universe.
Indeed. It was only a few decades before the Clan invasion where Lances were considered sufficient to capture many worlds, and deploying whole regiments was absolutely unheard of for the longest time. In fact, I believe this is commented on by Victor in one of books, the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy, in fact.
Not really. The 4th Succession War usually had at least 2/3rds of an RCT involved in planetary battles.
-
I really dont like the clans at all. there are several reasons why. the first and simplist, is that i got my first mechs and TRO before the invasion (good ol 3025). then in 1990 the clan invasion happened. we got new tech which was cool, sure... but the invasion busted up the map, right into the FRR who really got crushed. i think the only reason the invasion stopped where it did, was to prevent that faction from being removed entirely.
the second problem with the clan, is that their arrival moves the game from one set of technology, to three. and on their arrival, tonnage was the only way to balance games, with no clear guide on how much clan tonnage was 'fair' against inner sphere defenders. so in practical terms a lot of jerks played clan simply to get better mechs and pilots to crush their enemy with, who didnt care about honor or lore at all. we got CV later, but the damage had been done. and after 3067 came out, i stopped playing for a number of years, didnt bother getting any new mechs or books. missed 3075 entirely, it was out of print by the time i realized it would have been nice to have.
the third problem with the clan, is simply the lore. the clan were poorly thought out, and poorly explained. mostly it was the warrior culture, claiming honor while showing none. the wolf scouts had been in the IS for a decades, had helped restore a lot of old tech to the houses... and yet, when the clan arrived they treated the warriors they fought with no respect, as if the great houses of the inner sphere were only pirates. and in the end, they only survived because once again, you simply cannot remove a faction once it has been added to the game. so their homeworlds became isolationist, and we get stuck with them on one side of the map.
and finally... the clans killed FASA. the entire mess with the unseen? it happened because of a TV show that kinda ripped off the clan invasion, and a lawsuit (and you have to sue to keep your IP). then palladium sued (again, because they had to), then harmony gold started the endless lawsuits (because they are lawsuit trolls who hate fun).
but mostly, its because the people who i met back in the 90's who played clan were jerks.
-
The second point, what is "worth taking" or not is subjective. More often, the "advanced side" aka official authority decides the insurgency/asymmetric war is not worth the resources - political as well as material - needed to finish it. But it's usually considered worth it when it's a matter of national survival.
Let's say we have a fictional third world country. We'll call it... Val Verde (thank you, 80s action movies). And let's say it's in a volatile part of the world (so Powerful Nations are likely to get dragged into a conflict there), and the people are fiercely independent, but there's really no natural resources that you want to grab. No oil, no uranium, no nothing. It's extremely underdeveloped and the people live in super poverty. No roads, no electricity. The only reason you get dragged into it is because it's a volatile part of the world.
So it's either in your own backyard (and you want to make sure it stays quiet), or it's in that other superpower's backyard (and you want to make sure it doesn't stay quiet). It's not worth conquering (you don't want to own it, there's nothing there and nobody wants to visit), but global politics requires that you have some troops there for the time being. Killing a bunch of inbred mountain boys who use homemade AK-47s isn't that hard, but with enough of them it'll eventually take its toll on your forces. People get mad if you wipe out whole cities, and the other side is constantly slipping in advisers and equipment for the rebels to use, because whatever you're trying to do there, they oppose it. So you basically get involved in this long, drawn out conflict that doesn't really seem to ever end. Eventually it comes to a close when the outside political forces that have kept you there change, and you happily leave the place you never really wanted to be.
That's how insurgencies survive in the real world. In Battletech, I think the difficulties in long distance travel prevent a lot of outside assistance, unless it's on a national border. Kurita isn't sending dropships full of supplies to a world in the Davion outback, because it would take 6 months to get there through inhabited space. You also have a lot of Planetvilles, where you only need to control a few cities, and who cares what happens out in the countryside.
-
The only reason you get dragged into it is because it's a volatile part of the world.
Your Val Verde is actually Battletech in some ways, and unlike in other ways, so it's a good example to look at and compare with BT battles.
There are some planets (many?) with little economic value, but some intrinsic value - individually insignificant, but lose enough of them and you lose something more strategic. Maybe it's a world in the Chaos March, which could link either the Fed Com or the Kapteyn powers or heck serve as a base for Word of Blake... Point is, it's important enough to warrant some troops and resources being invested in it. To dismiss it as just simply "volatile" is to underestimate the problem. Remember there are agendas at play here some consider worth killing and dying for.
Anyway... Unfortunately, someone got there first. Either those stinkin' Dracs or those stupid Fedrats. And the worth of the planet is low enough that a serious effort at annexation, with the threat of sparking a 5th Succession War, is not on. The side which doesn't own the planet can choose to drop it and move on, or make trouble... the low-level kind of trouble that hopefully doesn't spark a 5th War. Here's where some asymmetrical proxy warring comes in.
And no, you don't just send in ragtag mountain boys with TK autorifles. You send in Chain Gangs - people you can afford to lose, but trained well enough and in real Mechs which can do real damage. Any mercs you can find, too. They think they'll take over the planet against the odds, but you know better - they're there to tie down resources asymmetrically, so you might take a stab at a juicier target nearby - Quentin, perhaps. If they succeed, it's a win; if they never make it back out, "look on the bright side; you get to keep all the money".
Seemingly-endless war? Conflict is constantly happening. These are the "savage wars of peace". Just because no formal Succession War has been declared doesn't mean shooting isn't going on. Human nature.
The rest you're describing is simply one side being demoralised and losing the will to continue fighting - which IS the ultimate goal of any military strategy BTW. The politicians and generals will come up with any number of reasons why they're pulling back, some of which might even be valid, but in military terms it simply means: the plan succeeded, the enemy is in retreat. Exploit and pursue.
On to the next battlefield.
-
Not really. The 4th Succession War usually had at least 2/3rds of an RCT involved in planetary battles.
It was actually the 4th Succession War that really started seeing Regiments to capture more than the most key worlds. Minor worlds, of which there were more of and most often hit, could be taken by a Company or a Lance, depending on how low on the priority level it was at.
-
It was actually the 4th Succession War that really started seeing Regiments to capture more than the most key worlds. Minor worlds, of which there were more of and most often hit, could be taken by a Company or a Lance, depending on how low on the priority level it was at.
Indeed. It was only a few decades before the Clan invasion where Lances were considered sufficient to capture many worlds, and deploying whole regiments was absolutely unheard of for the longest time. In fact, I believe this is commented on by Victor in one of books, the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy, in fact.
You may be thinking of... Precentor Ulthan Everson? ...who was hyperbolizing to the First Circuit. ("All those regiments gathering on Alyina make the invasion of Tikonov look like a picnic," or something along those lines.) Offhand, I can't think of any good references to units much smaller than a regiment capturing worlds; if you know of some, please share.
To the best of my knowledge, regiments have been the standard since BattleDroids. They're the standard force size in the old BattleForce game, and when the House histories talk about conquests it always seems to be regimental forces, regardless of the world. Even Decision at Thunder Rift didn't consider a lance sufficient to capture Successor State worlds.
The first RPG mentions that raids are sometimes as small as a player's unit (which generally means a company or more), but we can presume such actions face relatively quick reactions from the larger regional garrisons. You don't hit a world with a lance or company and expect to actually hold it.
I think FanPro's boxed sets did say that regimental actions were unheard of in the Succession Wars, but those boxed sets weren't overly interested in getting the history right.
-
It was actually the 4th Succession War that really started seeing Regiments to capture more than the most key worlds. Minor worlds, of which there were more of and most often hit, could be taken by a Company or a Lance, depending on how low on the priority level it was at.
You see raids of that size, but not planetary invasions, not even in the halcyon days of TRO 3025.
-
*nod*
The whole Lance up to even a Battalion actually conquering a world thing is something I know that was established just to give player sized units more agency but really when it comes down to it it doesn't actually seem to happen that often in Battletech and most of the examples I can think are all too easily dismissed as fictionalized tall tales of events.
-
most of the examples I can think are all too easily dismissed as fictionalized tall tales of events.
Well, I can't even think of any tall tales, but my knowledge isn't perfect. What examples were you thinking of?
-
*nod*
The whole Lance up to even a Battalion actually conquering a world thing is something I know that was established just to give player sized units more agency but really when it comes down to it it doesn't actually seem to happen that often in Battletech and most of the examples I can think are all too easily dismissed as fictionalized tall tales of events.
See, it really depends on the world in question. When there is a world of note, considerable military pressure will be applied because a considerable military presence exists, but when there is little military presence, then a large military presence is not required.
Now, keep in mind, that I'm just talking about a Lance of Mechs, I wasn't really talking about other supporting forces that came along as well.
-
Well, I can't even think of any tall tales, but my knowledge isn't perfect. What examples were you thinking of?
Early Grey Death Legion novels had some pretty small forces taking worlds. Having trouble remembering any other examples myself.
See, it really depends on the world in question. When there is a world of note, considerable military pressure will be applied because a considerable military presence exists, but when there is little military presence, then a large military presence is not required.
Now, keep in mind, that I'm just talking about a Lance of Mechs, I wasn't really talking about other supporting forces that came along as well.
If transportation is really as short as Battletech makes it out to be it does raise some significant questions about if a world is even worth taking in the first place if all you're sending is a lance of mechs and assorted support forces.
Personally I do head canon a lot of this one Trinary routs an entire RCT/conquers a world as Comstar propaganda though. Have to remember at the time these incidents were happening Comstar was working with the Clans, so planting news stories that significantly smaller Clan forces were taking on and defeating the Inner Sphere to demoralize the Inner Sphere isn't something to discount.
Meshes well with how the Clans were depicted to be larger originally and much more of a real threat but ran out of steam and now have fewer numbers. It's even easy to explain why the Clans don't mention this, by in large they actively try to keep actual loses in victory or defeat under wraps to preserve both the ego of the Warrior caste and to keep the Warrior caste's position in the political hierarchy secure. They don't even order increased production to make up the loses to keep the other Clans from thinking them weak and ripe for absorption.
-
i wonder if there was really any considerable will in the populous of the worlds captured y the clan willing to resist? i mean, if you've been getting traded every generation by uncaring rulers who do nothing but show up to crack the ol' whip...does it really matter to you much if there's a new boss in a funny hat that wants to bark orders and stomp around so long as they don't mess with your work and home?
-
Well the only way the survival of the Clan OZs makes any sense is that the tiny Clan populations don't intermix much with the natives.
If the natives just go about their daily routines, most importantly paying their taxes/tributes to the planetary governor just like they've always done... it literally won't matter to them if that governor is a Duke or a locally elected public servant or a Clan Merchantcasteman.
It only gets stupid if one tries to imagine the Clans imposing their way of life on billions of people.
-
The lore does actually have an answer for the Clans at least. For a while anyway.
Part of the deal that Comstar made was they'd help administrate the worlds to effectively serve as a buffer. It still wasn't perfect and we can see the locals did actually resist to extents they never did against the other House Lords. Ask Turtle Bay about the consequences of doing so though.
-
i wonder if there was really any considerable will in the populous of the worlds captured y the clan willing to resist? i mean, if you've been getting traded every generation by uncaring rulers who do nothing but show up to crack the ol' whip...does it really matter to you much if there's a new boss in a funny hat that wants to bark orders and stomp around so long as they don't mess with your work and home?
We've been through this a lot
Yes, for the Clans it matters because their philosophy explicitly messes with society significantly.
No, you cannot be a soldier no more, you are freebirth scum so you are now a paramilitary policeman at best. No deployments, you are on garrison duty till you die. Hail Kerensky. You, you are from a Worker family right, what are you doing signing up for Biotechnology 101 in community college? You are not going to have the brains for Scientist caste. Take these application forms for Bricklaying. Hail Kerensky. Dear Hazen, what is this surat pulp you people watch on TV?! "Sparkle Vampire Saga 3-D Part 36"?! No, I do not care, that is neither a Kerensky Clan (I would know) nor a Kurultai-approved educational parable; Point Commander, go to Studio Alphabet and remand these deviants for industrial retraining. Take these Sanitation Worker forms with you. Hail Kerensky.
-
Which is not what happened, and explains why some like the Ice Hellions were confused upon arrival in the Inner Sphere.
-
The ghost bears were significantly noted as letting civilian government continue, but the military was disbanded. This eventually led to the ghost bear dominion, which had a lot of frr influence.
The falcons are mentioned to not care about the inner sphere population other than being supported. They consider it below them.
The smoke jaguars believed that the population should act like clanners and capitulate. Turtle Bay proved that wrong. But their scorched earth policy and ridgidity led to them being the target for destruction.
-
Which is not what happened, and explains why some like the Ice Hellions were confused upon arrival in the Inner Sphere.
The Rasalhague military mutinied over exactly this. Life in the Jade Falcon OZ, when it bothers looking at Spheroids, is depicted as exactly this.
What the Ice Hellions were confused about was exactly how much pacification work it took for the Bears and Falcons to pull it off to the (arguably limited) extent they did.
-
Early Grey Death Legion novels had some pretty small forces taking worlds. Having trouble remembering any other examples myself.
Yeah, I think most people go off vague memories of Decision at Thunder Rift, but neither it nor Mercenary's Star actually works that way.
The conquest of Sirius might count, though I think they were bigger then.
-
One should also remember that the farther away from a border, the easier it was to be nationalistic, with Rasalhague being a fresh new exception. Also, for those border worlds, there was a consideration that was rather Clannish, of, "oh, new overlord, okay." It was often those who were military or whose populations received reprisals because of military actions who fomented any active resistance.
Going by that, Turtle Bay was far from the border, not having changed hands in "forever", and they had Hohiro to consider, and the Yakuza held a certain level of gratitude for Hohiro's father.
-
What the Ice Hellions were confused about was exactly how much pacification work it took for the Bears and Falcons to pull it off to the (arguably limited) extent they did.
No, its really no worse than the Cappies or Dracs forcing their culture. Three books give us a good look at life inside a Clan OZ under one of the most traditional Clans, which would be the Operation Icestorm set and Rending of Falcons. Icestorm has the Hellions having to interface with the OZ population. saKhan Conner Rood meets with the Factors for a planet- Labor, Merchant, Tech and Scientist- who oversee those 'castes' efforts for the Clan. The OZ populations were never forced into 'enclaves' or even relocated by the planetary administrations or warrior caste military governors which was something some of the Hellion commanders could not grasp. When the Hellions blasted Borealtown on Wotan, a freebirth Falcon abathka of the Hellions knew it was a disaster and walked away. The Falcons took responsibility for those civilians- in a city that was not set in the mold of the Homeworlds- to the point they declared the Hellions dezgra and sought to annihilate them.
In Rending of Falcons we have a Lyran noble and former covert ops agent as an ambassador to the Falcon leadership. You see the Falcons have maintained the cities and kept them similar to what existed before. The book also demonstrated some of the typical problems of bureaucracy and especially of authoritarian systems for the traveling Lyrans. For the Sea Fox warrior-merchant, its a port town not unlike others in the OZs or IS that she has visited.
We also get a look at the Smoke Jaguars on HUNTRESS in the latest novel, one of the most repressive and brutal Clans to ever exist. But the civilian castes had recreational facilities provided for all the castes. While WoK talks about that stupid Clan cartoon show, it was to be demonstrated as a form of propaganda- like IRL cartoons of the time (if you cannot figure out a big one, IM me).
The short story involving the Crusader Wolves Omega Galaxy's deployment to the periphery edge of the Wolf OZ before the Horses came discussed their bandit hunting among the lower castes. IIRC it involves some interaction with planetary paramilitaries and a dive bar. Life for those on that periphery world had not changed all the much from what it had been 50 years before. In fact, in Touring the Stars Butte Hold the Wolf Clan actually improve the situation on the world when they invaded the IS b/c they stabilized the planet which was something the Houses had never sought to accomplish. The Wolves put down SL-tech hydroponics to feed the world's population and the planet's workforce were able to go from being forced to be salt prospectors/miners to become treasure hunters! Definitely something that does not fit your characterization of forcing jobs in a caste system. The Wolves assigned a point of solahma Elementals to guard a source of water on the dry planet- they were forgotten about when the Wolves lost control of the planet and ignored by the Horses to the point they went native.
The Clans have mobility in their caste system, and children are not locked into what their parents do as a job. Children are tested and assigned, which is part of how they find the freebirths who would be warriors and how they decide what trueborn children will do when they wash out of the sibkos. Not every Elemental becomes a laborer.
-
The Clans have mobility in their caste system, and children are not locked into what their parents do as a job. Children are tested and assigned, which is part of how they find the freebirths who would be warriors and how they decide what trueborn children will do when they wash out of the sibkos. Not every Elemental becomes a laborer.
I was always under the impression that anyone can test into any caste when they become eligible, & if they win or meet the required achievements, they're in. Yes, someone from the laborer caste is going to have a very hard time testing into the warrior caste, but its a possibility at least, & probably the way most Clans get their conventional "leg" infantry, since testing into the very lowest rung in the Warrior caste is probably fairly achievable, & would be a big jump in status for anyone that does so.
Damon.
-
I think some of the confusion of the clan force size is that originally it was just front line, then they included second line and PGCs. So some of the early stuff that says 3-5 galaxy's that is just front line, while the stuff in the teens is probably everything.
Stepping back in time to tackle something else that didn't help: Front Line Galaxies filled out in dedicated roles. You go back to the two Clan Phone Books of Wolf and Falcon, you have an entire galaxy dedicated to aerospace, a few more dedicated to Elemental infantry. And, then they're given a specific port of call where they're the only unit there in the Field Manuals.
Galaxies like that strike me as being a unit that works in conjunction with others. Or that there should be Clusters set up as such in each Front Line Galaxy, giving that Galaxy effective role versatility for when they are the only unit at a port of call in their Inner Sphere holdings.
-
The other thing you have to remember is who got invaded. The Draconis Combine and the Lyran Commonwealth are not exactly bastions of freedom. They’re both a great deal more authoritarian than the Fed Suns or the FWL. The Lyrans have a secret police force that disappears political dissidents. It’s basically a fascist state, even though they’ve been made into protagonists post-3025. Yeah it’s a pretty nice place to live as long as you toe the line and never speak out. And we all know about the Combine.
So it’s not like the Clans were imposing their systems on exceptionally free societies.
-
I was always under the impression that anyone can test into any caste when they become eligible, & if they win or meet the required achievements, they're in. Yes, someone from the laborer caste is going to have a very hard time testing into the warrior caste, but its a possibility at least, & probably the way most Clans get their conventional "leg" infantry, since testing into the very lowest rung in the Warrior caste is probably fairly achievable, & would be a big jump in status for anyone that does so.
Damon.
In theory, yes. Early clans, yes. Invasion era clans, depends on the clan. On average, not so easy.
I got the impression they get their infantry from warriors on the 'out' portion of 'up or out'
-
In theory, yes. Early clans, yes. Invasion era clans, depends on the clan. On average, not so easy.
I got the impression they get their infantry from warriors on the 'out' portion of 'up or out'
Well, some were harder than others and Smoke Jaguars would deny Freeborns even the chance at being a Warrior, but from Scientist and Tech on down, one could move out of their parents' caste according to their capabilities.
-
I really dont like the clans at all. there are several reasons why. the first and simplist, is that i got my first mechs and TRO before the invasion (good ol 3025). then in 1990 the clan invasion happened. we got new tech which was cool, sure... but the invasion busted up the map, right into the FRR who really got crushed. i think the only reason the invasion stopped where it did, was to prevent that faction from being removed entirely.
the second problem with the clan, is that their arrival moves the game from one set of technology, to three. and on their arrival, tonnage was the only way to balance games, with no clear guide on how much clan tonnage was 'fair' against inner sphere defenders. so in practical terms a lot of jerks played clan simply to get better mechs and pilots to crush their enemy with, who didnt care about honor or lore at all. we got CV later, but the damage had been done. and after 3067 came out, i stopped playing for a number of years, didnt bother getting any new mechs or books. missed 3075 entirely, it was out of print by the time i realized it would have been nice to have.
the third problem with the clan, is simply the lore. the clan were poorly thought out, and poorly explained. mostly it was the warrior culture, claiming honor while showing none. the wolf scouts had been in the IS for a decades, had helped restore a lot of old tech to the houses... and yet, when the clan arrived they treated the warriors they fought with no respect, as if the great houses of the inner sphere were only pirates. and in the end, they only survived because once again, you simply cannot remove a faction once it has been added to the game. so their homeworlds became isolationist, and we get stuck with them on one side of the map.
and finally... the clans killed FASA. the entire mess with the unseen? it happened because of a TV show that kinda ripped off the clan invasion, and a lawsuit (and you have to sue to keep your IP). then palladium sued (again, because they had to), then harmony gold started the endless lawsuits (because they are lawsuit trolls who hate fun).
but mostly, its because the people who i met back in the 90's who played clan were jerks.
I have to say that is one reason I only touch 3050 or younger. The Clans changed the rules to much and a good game (my opinion) should have few rules as possible and there should be balance. It also made assumptions that anyone who decides to play clan has to play by these rules without any way to enforce it.
I also found it disheartening when they decided to wipe out a ton of mercenary groups when I find them to be the greatest source fun (both in source books and novels)
-
I also found it disheartening when they decided to wipe out a ton of mercenary groups when I find them to be the greatest source fun (both in source books and novels)
Yeah. That's what's made it hard for me to be interested in the Jihad and later. All the Mercs I liked were either killed off or changed so much that I don't recognize them. :(
-
I've always been kind of conflicted. I do like the Clans as a concept (though certainly with hindsight there'd be some necessary tweaking) and I even kinda like the initial invasion, but I don't like the effect their arrival had on the setting. There's the world before their arrival and the world after their arrival, and for me just it just hasn't been as good after. But it could be nostalgia as I came to the game before their arrival, so it's kind of natural to hearken to the old days.
-
I've always been kind of conflicted. I do like the Clans as a concept (though certainly with hindsight there'd be some necessary tweaking) and I even kinda like the initial invasion, but I don't like the effect their arrival had on the setting. There's the world before their arrival and the world after their arrival, and for me just it just hasn't been as good after. But it could be nostalgia as I came to the game before their arrival, so it's kind of natural to hearken to the old days.
I agree depending how much role-playing you do the main problem is the background of your character. Especially for a mobile force you need to a born trueborn or a freeborn clanner unless you are a captured IS warrior there is little freedom of movement in your characters back story. And if you are born in the OZ after the invasion it seems that you still have little movement into the warrior caste (outside the police) no matter what Clan dominates the planet.
I find only mercenary factions give the role-playing members the flexibility to create interesting scenarios outside a sourcebook. There are exceptions (the seekers in Goliath Scorpion), but the opportunity for stories (outside of literature) is limiting. Thus the I find the Clans advanced the tech rules in Battletech, not so much with roleplaying.
-
The Austerity of clan culture is a product of the homeworlds. Colonizing such hostile barren worlds requires that sort of discipline and sacrifice.it is fine and natural for the clans to adapt to the relative plenty of the Eden that is the inner sphere with different standards for the lower castes. The homeworlds were hard places with no room for soft people. The inner sphere is a different story.
-
Going back to the OP: Some people dislike the clan, some people dislike FedCom, some people dislike the RotS some dislike Cappies. Worst case: you have someone to shoot at.
-
I know I´m late to this particular party, but man do I hate the clans. They represent everything I abhor: An oligarchy at best, autocratic at worst, totalitarian regime that controls its population literally from birth (iron wombs, genetic selection) to how their remains are to be handled after death.
They brainwash their population and strictly control them. They separate them in castes without any way for a "lower" caste to gain access to a higher one. Just imagine what the life of a freeborn waste management caste member should be. Worst than any serf in any feudal system anywhere.
What I don't get is how they are still alive. Even with the hit of the succession wars, the production capabilities and human resources of the IS should considerably dwarf those of the clans. After the initial shock, a protracted war should not have gone the way of the clans. I understand that the narrative required it, but it is so counterintuitive that it jarred my sensibilities.
In WWII a BIG factor of the allied win was the fact that they outproduced the germans. By a LOT. In our case, if the IS took total war seriously not only the Smoke Jaguars would have been eliminated. But they didn't and now we have an encroaching ilClan waiting to pound on Terra itself.
Wells, that's just my two cents. And don't even get me started on Comstar and the Wobbies. The Clans and they deserve each other.
-
Well Codigo, the cause of the Clans continued survival is partly due to the fact that the Houses are not really better.
They are highly feudal and most of their populations are often poor or don't contribute much to the system.
-
I know I´m late to this particular party, but man do I hate the clans. They represent everything I abhor: An oligarchy at best, autocratic at worst, totalitarian regime that controls its population literally from birth (iron wombs, genetic selection) to how their remains are to be handled after death.
That really only applies to the warrior caste. And even there, treatment can differ. How a liberal clan like Wolf or Ghost Bear rears their young is going to be different from a Smoke Jaguar or Star Adder.
They brainwash their population and strictly control them. They separate them in castes without any way for a "lower" caste to gain access to a higher one. Just imagine what the life of a freeborn waste management caste member should be. Worst than any serf in any feudal system anywhere.
In most Clans, if you got the skills you can test up. Jaime and Joshua Wolf, for example, were adopted into the Warrior caste. The Clans are all about challenging themselves at all levels. If you can prove you can contribute more as a technician than a laborer (for example), then it benefits the Clan to move you up.
And let’s be fair, the Inner Sphere isn’t any better. The FedSuns might preach a good game about individual rights and whatnot, but it’s also home to staggering inequality to the point that there are de facto castes and a worship of the warrior-nobility that would be right at home with the Clans. The Combine is incredibly authoritarian, indoctrinates their population into the supremacy of the Dragon, and has its own rigid caste structure. And I can go on and on. All the factions have major flaws.
-
As some one who wouldn't had discovered BT without Clans being thing (Mechwarrior 2) I actually like Clans. They are so different from IS Houses that it gives setting interesting contrast between two groups. My only problem with them is that I can't seem to choose what Clan I like most to be my faction among them and I end up going between Jade Falcon and Wolf without really being able to settle to one or other. But I should before I repaint my Clan mechs as I won't be stripping paint from those after that.
-
In most Clans, if you got the skills you can test up. Jaime and Joshua Wolf, for example, were adopted into the Warrior caste. The Clans are all about challenging themselves at all levels. If you can prove you can contribute more as a technician than a laborer (for example), then it benefits the Clan to move you up.
You fail to mention the par excellence example of clan mobility: Aidan Pryde. But even in his case, it was not real mobility, but recognition of his trueborn status. As for the rest of the freeborns of his galaxy? What happened to horse? He ended up as a star captain, nothing else. No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship position, or ilKhanship, or Loremaster, or earned a bloodname, or anything really. (Yes, i know about Diana Pryde. but she was Aidan daughter and is a special case for that fact).
And do you think a scientist would be allowed to test as a warrior? He already failed at it, he won't be retested. Remember, the fact that Pryde took two tests was an anomaly, not a rule.
Nope. A lower caste member won't get into a higher one.
And of course, every other faction has its own trouble. Davions pretend to be democrats while having a feudal society. Make-believe Japan is an autocratic regime. Space Balkan is, well, balkanized. And don't even get me started on the confederation. They are more clan-like than anyone else. Space Germany has its own issues too.
But, none has gone to the straits the clans went. None has such control over their population. None brainwash them as thoroughly. The Kerenskys were not only deserters and thieves but madmen with control issues.
Even their technology was not innovative, but derivative. (At the moment of their introduction) I thought they squashed creativity for conformity. The revolution came after contact with the IS. It was then that they were forced to think outside the little boxes.
I hate those guys with a vengeance.
Man, do I love Battletech. :D
-
Based on comments in the recen rec guides, the caste system has gotten more flexable, and the lower castes have had an increase in status. It only took a century of 'sphere influence.
Mind you, the clans are paper thin klingon expys (with a side of mongol hordes,) from the early ST:TNG era. I try not to get worked up about them.
-
No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship position, or ilKhanship, or Loremaster, or earned a bloodname, or anything really. (Yes, i know about Diana Pryde. but she was Aidan daughter and is a special case for that fact).
Phelan Kell?
-
Phelan Kell?
I think he was only talking about Clans similar to the Jade Falcons where freeborn aren’t given the same privileges as trueborn.
-
I think he was only talking about Clans similar to the Jade Falcons where freeborn aren’t given the same privileges as trueborn.
Clans like the Steel Vipers, the Jade Falcons, the Smoke Jaguars, and even the Coyotes.
-
An oligarchy at best, autocratic at worst, totalitarian regime
With the exception of the old Free Rasalhague Republic and some other minor states, this is true of all major states in the BT universe. They are all ultimately ruled by singular despots who have very few checks on their power. The difference between the Houses and the Clans is that the Houses inherit their despots while the Clans choose their despots through meritocracy (albeit a meritocracy of insane trials by combat) and very limited democracy (voting by trueborn or bloodnamed warriors only).
In fact, one could argue that the government of the Rasalhague Dominion, with powers shared between the Khan and the Prince and both checked by a legislature representing spheroids, freeborn, and trueborn alike, is arguably more like a modern, real-world, western liberal democracy than any other major BT state. (That doesn’t mean it is, just that it’s closer to.) Even when governing as a coherent whole, the most democratic Spheroid body, the FWL parliament, ultimately defers to the Captain-General through a long-standing emergency order.
that controls its population literally from birth (iron wombs, genetic selection) to how their remains are to be handled after death.
This is mainly the trueborns, which represent less than 1% of total Clan population. The vast majority of the freeborn population has normal reproductive freedoms.
Yeah, the eugenics program is weird and alien and it’s the center and ultimate work of Clan civilization, but it’s practices remain the exception, not the norm.
They brainwash their population and strictly control them. They separate them in castes without any way for a "lower" caste to gain access to a higher one. Just imagine what the life of a freeborn waste management caste member should be. Worst than any serf in any feudal system anywhere.
Yes, a more systemic difference between the Clans and Houses is the tightly held command economies of the Clans' where vocations and tasks are assigned, not chosen, by the workforce. There are shades of this in the Cappie and Snake societies, but the Clans take it to an extreme. In the end, it doesn’t really matter as all general BT populations are sheeple. Otherwise, it would be impossible to take and hold worlds of millions and billions with a regiment or cluster of mechs.
What I don't get is how they are still alive. Even with the hit of the succession wars, the production capabilities and human resources of the IS should considerably dwarf those of the clans. After the initial shock, a protracted war should not have gone the way of the clans. I understand that the narrative required it, but it is so counterintuitive that it jarred my sensibilities.
In WWII a BIG factor of the allied win was the fact that they outproduced the germans. By a LOT. In our case, if the IS took total war seriously not only the Smoke Jaguars would have been eliminated. But they didn't and now we have an encroaching ilClan waiting to pound on Terra itself.
The Clans are modeled, more or less, on the Migration Period peoples (Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Lombards, Vandals, Huns, etc.) and later “barbarians” (Vikings, Mongols, etc.). If you just looked at overall numbers, production, organization, or even technology, those peoples should not have been capable of doing things like sacking Rome, threatening Byzantium, bringing down any number of empires and kingdoms, or creating some of the world’s largest empires. But unlike their “civilized” counterparts, those entire societies were geared for war, and they had practiced endemic warfare for centuries. They were still the underdogs, but when it came to warfare, they also had certain advantages that the “civilized” world lacked. Like their “barbarian” forbears, what the Clans lack in sheer numbers or economic production, they potentially make up for with singularity of purpose, practice, efficiency, determination, and ferocity.
Moreover, even the best-run “civilized” empire will fall on hard times. And that’s when the “barbarians” most often sweep in and take over. And that’s arguably what’s happened to four of the major Spheroid powers (Elsies, Republic, Leaguers, and FedRats). The historical precedent you want to look towards is the fall of the Roman Empire, not WWII.
Lastly, it’s important to mention FASanomics. Factory production, military size, etc. is driven by plot, not investment and demographics, in BT. For all we know, the Clans actually do outproduce the Inner Sphere militarily despite their smaller population and presumably smaller economic base. Given the number of mechs they destroy in Trials of Position, Trials of Bloodright, and Grand Melees alone, they might have to!
Don’t get wrong, there’s a lot to dislike about the Clans. But like everything in BT, it’s not all that cut-and-dried or black-and-white.
-
No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship position, or ilKhanship, or Loremaster, or earned a bloodname, or anything really. (Yes, i know about Diana Pryde. but she was Aidan daughter and is a special case for that fact).
Actually . . . the Warden Wolves founded a Bloodhouse named Brahe, the Ghost Bears one named Magnusson, implication is all the IS Clans had adopted the Trial of Propagation, in '67 the Warden Wolves had a freeborn Star Colonel with a bloodname (won sometime between 62 & 67), the Nova Cats integrated Minoru Kurita's genes into their warrior caste as part of a sub-caste (Mystics), Minoru also became the Nova Cat's Loremaster IIRC, the Crusader Wolves mixed VSD & KSD genes in a test tube sometime in the 3100s, Vlad re-tested members of other castes to replace losses after the Refusal War, the Ghost Bears have given failures retraining- they can earn bloodnames and one became Khan (Bjorn), the Falcons made . . . eh, some bondsman off Blackjack a Star Colonel?- or maybe just a Star Captain but he had reputation . . .
. . . and unBlooded warriors do get mixed into sibkos as paternal donors (see Zane Nova Cat).
-
No freeborn ever made it into a Khanship.
Strictly speaking, this is not true of the first Khans (maybe even the second or third Khans for some Clans) or of Phelan Kell, although his were extraordinary circumstances.
It also kind of misses the point. The Clans are the most thoroughly militarized culture in a militarized universe for a military game. Expecting a technician to rise to a Khanship is kind of like expecting a non-noble nobody to rise to rule one of the Great Houses. Folks don’t play Warhammer expecting the Emperor of Mankind to be overthrown from within. Etc. These universes are designed to create exciting stories and compelling characters. Folks play D&D to step into the shoes of a Conan or a Gandalf, not a farmer or a shopkeeper.
Nope. A lower caste member won't get into a higher one.
This isn’t true, either. See Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 34, which explains that Clan children are not born into their caste. They test to determine their caste and can and do move higher. There are also examples of Clanners changing castes later in life. Some of these are even formalized and unique to certain Clans, like the Shark/Fox merchant-warrior reserves.
I’m not saying there’s a lot of upward mobility in Clan society, but there’s arguably even less among the large populations of the Houses or in most real-world societies.
None has such control over their population. None brainwash them as thoroughly.
I think this is true of vocation, but not much else. There is a cult of Kerensky, but within that context, there is a remarkable range of cultural differentiation and expression, from Cobra religiosity to Scorpion archeology to Shark/Fox commercialism to Bear great works to Mandrill divisiveness to Spirit unity.
The Kerenskys were not only deserters and thieves
This contrarian view has been debated here ad nauseum. If you want to take it up, visit these threads:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66079.0)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68905.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68905.0)
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45637.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45637.0)
but madmen with control issues.
Nick almost certainly was. No such evidence in the canon for Alex.
Even their technology was not innovative, but derivative.
All BT technology is derivative of 80s military technology. It’s no fault of the Clans that they lack UAVs, precision munitions, nanotech, etc.
(At the moment of their introduction) I thought they squashed creativity for conformity.
Nick certainly squashed Wolverine creativity. But that didn’t stop the innovations that followed after his death in the Golden Century.
The revolution came after contact with the IS.
Their most revolutionary military innovations — the omnimech and battle armor — came long before and had nothing to do with Spheroid contact.
-
Phelan Kell?
I must confess you almost got me there. But I believe I can argue he was a special case. He is one of the first spheroids caught by the wolves, and absurdly taken with their culture he incorporated into it easily. Also, even though as clan culture was depreciative of the IS in general, it could be argued that at the moment of the invasion they were not against taking bondsman from the IS and incorporating into their military.
Later he was fundamental in Ulric Kerensky's plan of moving Clan Wolf to the IS, where he would serve as the liaison between them and the local governments.
The exact same argument can be made in regards to Ragnar Magnusson, who became saKhan of the Bears. An abduction, brainwashing, and indoctrination into clan culture was the method used to place such a valuable asset into the clan fold. And was used to congratiate the clan with the local population.
-
Kinda curious who your favorite faction is.
-
The Warden Wolves going into exile was never part of Ulric's plan- it was just the best bad option when Vlad showed his cards.
But if you look at what has happened to the Bears and the Dominion, you really have to ask which way the Overton Window moved in that partnership. The Bears saw him as so important to their future they traded a Leviathan's worth of factory cargo to gain him.
Further, while Alaric Ward was a test-tube baby, he was at best indirectly (CC's Steiner Bloodhouse) related to Clan bloodlines.
-
An abduction, brainwashing, and indoctrination into clan culture was the method used to place such a valuable asset into the clan fold.
Wartime capture of enemy troops is not abduction. Magnusson was not a kidnapped child or civilian.
There’s no evidence of brainwashing or forced indoctrination in the canon. Like all bondsmen, Magnusson chose between remaining a bondsman or making the effort necessary to earn warrior status (or commit bondsref in the extreme). He chose the latter.
Some Clans will return bondsmen who fail to earn their way into their new Clan, although we don’t know if the Wolves and Bears practiced this.
And was used to congratiate the clan with the local population.
Not really. He was voted Prince of the Dominion without running and on a write-in vote. But because he had served in and was committed to the military side, he turned the office down.
-
the Ghost Bears one named Magnusson
There’s quite a few seemingly new Scandinavian bloodnames besides Magnusson and Jorgensson on the Bear rolls in FM: 3145. Either the Bears are letting the Rasalhagians keep their last names, or they’ve created more new bloodnames than Magnusson using Rasalhagian stock.
-
With the exception of the old Free Rasalhague Republic and some other minor states, this is true of all major states in the BT universe. They are all ultimately ruled by singular despots who have very few checks on their power. The difference between the Houses and the Clans is that the Houses inherit their despots while the Clans choose their despots through meritocracy (albeit a meritocracy of insane trials by combat) and very limited democracy (voting by trueborn or bloodnamed warriors only).
I wonder: after the fall of the Star League and until the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic, was there any larger democratic exercise than the Diamond Shark open referendum of 2985?
The Free Worlds League and Federated Suns tend to limit such things to individual worlds at best. Maybe the FWL Parliament can point to some significant votes even after Resolution 288, but not all of its members are democratically selected.
The Battletech universe offers slim pickings for fans of democracy and self-determination.
-
There’s quite a few seemingly new Scandinavian bloodnames besides Magnusson and Jorgensson on the Bear rolls in FM: 3145. Either the Bears are letting the Rasalhagians keep their last names, or they’ve created more new bloodnames than Magnusson using Rasalhagian stock.
All of the other non-Clan surnames in the 3145 list are in the Rasalhague part of the Dominion TOE. My assumption is that they're keeping their last names and that propagation is rare.
-
In answer to the OP.
Short answer - No
Long Answer - The Clans are an interesting attempt to make an alien race without actual aliens. And because their culture is so very different from our norms, i'd say it generally succeeds in that regard.
Yes the Clans society would fall apart and makes little sense if you start tugging at threads, REVIVAL never would have stood a farts chance in a hurricane because of the simply insane number disparity. There's more people on single worlds than there are in the homeworlds (and that in itself is a mystery, why is their population so damn low?) and a lot more other flaws. But they're still a very good attempt at making an alien civilisation without little green men/betentacled horrors.
Yes the Tech is wonky, yes the Clan pulse weapons should have the ranges of standard IS lasers rather than the insane range they do have, or, if they'd existed in the fluff when they came out the Clans should have had heavy lasers from the get go. But it being advanced again can be argued to make sense. They never really suffered the immense brain drain the IS did. They started from a more advanced tech base than the 'norm' of 3025. The IS bombed itself back not to the stone age but made a good 'ol college try at it. Whereas they had cities with towers reaching miles into the sky and had a level of technology that is FAR beyond us and a fully developed world would look more like Earth in the Expanse than anything. They managed to destroy all that technology, and then Comstar went around murdering and destroying even more. Its like us suddenly going back to the Victorian period, its that massive a jump back in some worlds cases.
Whereas the Clans had a tech base they could work on as well as all the notes etc and design documents and whilst they were conservative, they did what we're doing now. We've not really invented any new earth shaking tech that stands out and start off a new tech race. What we're doing is making things smaller, lighter, more efficient. Its what the Scientist Caste did. They made things smaller, lighter, more efficient.
Would I want to LIVE in a Clan? Unless its the Ghost Bears or Diamond Sharks. NO. Its a horrific Plurocratic Jockocracy where the ultimate decider in anything is force and strength.
-
Kinda curious who your favorite faction is.
Mercenaries. Then I can get my character disillusioned with whatever faction he was born into ;). Next? FWL amounts pretty much to the exact same thing.
-
Strictly speaking, this is not true of the first Khans (maybe even the second or third Khans for some Clans) or of Phelan Kell, although his were extraordinary circumstances.
It also kind of misses the point. The Clans are the most thoroughly militarized culture in a militarized universe for a military game. Expecting a technician to rise to a Khanship is kind of like expecting a non-noble nobody to rise to rule one of the Great Houses. Folks don’t play Warhammer expecting the Emperor of Mankind to be overthrown from within. Etc. These universes are designed to create exciting stories and compelling characters. Folks play D&D to step into the shoes of a Conan or a Gandalf, not a farmer or a shopkeeper.
This isn’t true, either. See Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 34, which explains that Clan children are not born into their caste. They test to determine their caste and can and do move higher. There are also examples of Clanners changing castes later in life. Some of these are even formalized and unique to certain Clans, like the Shark/Fox merchant-warrior reserves.
First, you can quote the novellas by page? :o Holy mother of God!
I remember that. In "Lethal Heritage" on the page "I have no idea" even though Aidan and Marthe advanced in their sibko training, most of their "siblings" got tested away before the trial of position.
But you miss the point and strike at it at the same time. Even though none is born into his caste, once cast, caste mobility is impossible. A lower caste member has no voice in the clan council, and the destiny of their clan is decided without their input. Even a warrior won't be cast down. A dezgra warrior eventually becomes solahmna, not an artificer or technician. And no tech is going to test into the warrior caste.
Yes, they are militarized, to the point that no other caste than the warrior has any input in its own destiny or its clan. They are less than serfs, who could at least try to escape their lord. And no, the black caste doesn't count. That's the same that escaping into a black hole. They have no society to speak of.
And they are brainwashed from BIRTH. Remember: Trashborn conforms the majority of their "ruling council". And they are educated in a system where beatings are mandatory, among other "education" techniques. If that's what the best can expect, what do you think happens in the lower castes?
This contrarian view has been debated here ad nauseum. If you want to take it up, visit these threads:
Fun times! Thank you for those links. I´m going to read them all.
All BT technology is derivative of 80s military technology. It’s no fault of the Clans that they lack UAVs, precision munitions, nanotech, etc.
Of course. But that's not the point. They improved what they already got at hand, but provided no new technologies to speak of. They ran away with a Matar, and instead of figuring out how to make it work, they simply belched the Stone Rhino. One of the real innovative technologies of their time, that pushed an envelope none was able to surpass before, that WAS surpassable as time proved, and they simply left it as it was. (And yes, I know that superheavys were not canon at the time of publication, but that's not the point. Hating the clans is ;D)
Their most revolutionary military innovations — the omnimech and battle armor — came long before and had nothing to do with Spheroid contact.
Really? They already had PAL suits in the SLDF. And the Mercury battlemech was the precursor of the Omnimech. That's no innovation. That's taking what you have, already tested, and perfecting it. Not innovation per se, but progression.
And thank you, and everyone else, for their answers to my post. They have been thorough, informative, and fun to read.
-
Yes the Clans society would fall apart and makes little sense if you start tugging at threads, REVIVAL never would have stood a farts chance in a hurricane because of the simply insane number disparity. There's more people on single worlds than there are in the homeworlds (and that in itself is a mystery, why is their population so damn low?) and a lot more other flaws. But they're still a very good attempt at making an alien civilisation without little green men/betentacled horrors.
A lot of that disconnect comes about when you take the early Clan source material- WCSB, JFSB, ICSB, & scenario books- hit the revision point (hint, its F&W scenario book), and they have to explain why the reformed Star League can destroy a Clan. Before that, we have BoK as the best source and the widely traveled Phelan Kell as our POV on the Clans. When visint Strana Mechty it never gets remarked about the city being 'so small' or a lack of population when on the street. Compare what people from the East Coast or better yet Europe where everything is jammed together say and talk about when they visit the eastern Rockies & their foothills- Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Utah . . . basically anywhere in those states outside Denver. When you go from urban sprawl to rural sparsity- and used to urban sprawl- it gets noticed and frequently commented on.
Culturally the Clans were also different- the Jaguars and Vipers were interested in adopting Phelan into their warrior caste if the Wolves did not! Post-Refusal War those two Clans would NEVER have even thought about it let alone tell a rival such a thing. It suggests a social mobility among Clan culture that we do not see reflected today- along with the 'harvesting' of the best on each world the Wolves conquered, it shows a far greater appreciation for talent from the freebirths even with the Wolves being of the more liberal bent.
Finally, the original implied Clan strength in BoK is greater than what we ended up with post-Refusal War. During that conflict FASA forgot about a galaxy of frontline troops and at best 21 clusters of garrison troops for the Wolves! And even that strength would not be enough to place the Wolves among the leaders of the Clan sizes we get with FMCC & WC- Refusal War involved around 20 attacking clusters (15 frontline & 5 pseudo-secondline) and saw another 5 garrison clusters re-positioned with 21 garrison clusters remaining in the OZ along with a most of a frontline galaxy (Red Keshik & some Delta clusters). If they had 49 clusters, it the Invasion Wolves roughly in the middle of the strength range. But the implication was that all four initial Invading Clans and then the two activated reserve were the best/strongest of the Clans as a whole and that they intentionally only brought a small portion of their best to make it a contest. Twenty-six garrison clusters were moved out of the Homeworlds without notice by the other Clans and had such a little impact on the Homeworlds so as to be a minor mention. If you can casually move 26 formations around your territory un-noticed it implies you have several times that formations available . . . to me that suggests 100+ plus clusters for the Wolves alone, more likely in the 200s.
But how would the Second Star League have taken out the Jaguars if- even with the material problems, which first started being reported at the same time they got downsized- they had 150-200 clusters? When a cluster during the Invasion could be expected to defeat a mech regiment, they would have been able to bury any House . . . which is why they bid down to the small number of clusters, to use the least force as a challenge.
-
I'm gonna chime in here and piss a lot of people off now;
The Clans are meant to be interesting.
yes, some of their society simply doesn't work but that doesn't mean that someone wouldn't try it, even educated someones. They fill that role correctly in tht they provide that useful 'dynamic element' at a point where things were going entirely too far in one direction, and they served their purpose.
They continue to serve their purpose by providing more gedankenlab for what a hyper-idealized culture can be and become, while still providing enough flaws and failings to make them interesting instead of an all out fanwank.
Have there been some disappointments in the canon portrayal? Oh, you betcha. I won't go over mine except to cite that when things were less painstakingly defined, the Crusader/Warden split was a lot more interesting because Crusaders could actually be intelligent and be doing it for reasons OTHER than being dicks.
hate to say it, but villain decay hits every property that's ever been, including Battletech, but thankfully it's still relatively mild in comparison with some other popular franchises.
but in general, the whole thing is heroic fiction, and presents as such, and in their proper role as plot-factors, the Clans do a good job...except Malvina's Mongols.
That was...ech. too black-and-white and in the context of too black and white, too stupidly black.
and by stupidly, I mean exactly that-actually hitting the point of 'too stupid to live', which is something you NEVER want your villains to be in heroic fiction. The rule is that 'if it's too stupid to work but it works..." doesn't apply when the success is so obviously forced by the author's hand. (I eally can't hate on Malvina's Mongol era enough, honestly, really can't.)
but in general terms, from 3049 to 30-seventies-ish the Clans do a good job of being a dynamic factor that enriches the setting, which is what you WANT with a fictional nation that could never exist in a more realistic setting.
There were a lot of missed opportunities with the Clans, but in general, they're still a good fountain for story material, plot material, opposition, allies, and flavour.
because in the final exam, sometimes you NEED that Munchkin-bait, if for no other reason than to make it so when the Heroes win, it's got heft and meaning.
-
Kind of curious why you think Malvina is too much? Her actions are absolutely ripped from history with a bit of a technological twist- a lot literally from the historical example and their successor she claims as a model. I also think that her Mongol position is the logical conclusion of the Crusader viewpoint in the Clans 'might makes right' society- breaking the rules & customs to 'win' is also part of the break down of a society, which the Falcons are exhibiting.
As far as someone not trying to replicate parts of Clan society? Again, similar lower-tech things have happened history and without getting into too much Rule #4 detail, the inability to successfully function is not & has never stopped people from trying to implement structurally flawed (IE, its a feature not a bug) bad ideas.
-
I'm gonna chime in here and piss a lot of people off now;
The Clans are meant to be interesting.
I´m gonna stop you right there with a strategy you don't expect: Of course i agree with you!. And they ARE interesting. And of course, i can imagine a ton of things I would have done differently. That's why "What ifs" are so fun. But why do YOU hate them?
And I think not hating them is not an option. Much like their model, the Mongols, you can say you admire their determination, etc. but not that you love them. In the end, they are the villain of the series. Or another one. Maybe i don't anymore what i'm talking about?
And Alaric has been built as to be an interesting villain, one with a "moral" code?. Much more than Malvina, who seems to clear cut as a madwoman.
-
First, you can quote the novellas by page?
Clans: Warriors of Kerensky is a sourcebook and a good/best source on Clan society in general. (And I had to look up the page number.)
most of their "siblings" got tested away before the trial of position.
It varies by Clan. Some have huge sibkos with ~100 sibkin from different lineages. In these Clans, nearly all of the sibkin wash out or die during the training and testing in the lead up to the Trial of Position. Other Clans have small sibkos of ~20 sibkin, often from a single geneparent pairing. These Clans have lower washout rates during training, but their Trials of Position are considerably more demanding. Either way, only a relative few sibkin join the warrior caste.
Even though none is born into his caste, once cast, caste mobility is impossible.
Again, strictly speaking, that’s not true. Freeborns from other castes can earn entry into the warrior caste in many/most Clans. The Sharks/Foxes have a reserve of warrior-merchants that move between those two castes as needed. The Wolves and other Clans have recruited and retested warriors from lower castes to fill gaps in their toumans. Etc.
That doesn’t mean that Clan society is a model of upward social mobility. But it’s not frozen in stasis, either.
A lower caste member has no voice in the clan council, and the destiny of their clan is decided without their input... to the point that no caste other than the warrior has any input in its own destiny or that of its Clan. They are less than serfs...
Again, this is not true. Each caste in each Clan has its own council, responsible for the affairs of its caste, and the leaders of these caste councils (Merchant Factors, Scientists General, etc.) advise the warrior caste leadership.
I’m not saying that the Clans are a shining example of egalitarian democracy and self-determination. The Khan always has the final say unless he loses a Trial of Refusal. But neither are the lower castes indentured servants or serfs with no say in the affairs of their Clan.
A dezgra warrior eventually becomes solahmna, not an artificer or technician.
It depends on the nature of the disgrace. Was the warrior a coward in battle? He can still serve his Clan in a lower caste. Was the warrior shipping weapons and slaves to the Bandit Caste? He’s a danger to the Clan. Put him on the frontlines to die ASAP. Or maybe execute him right away.
Like their real-world “barbarian” forbears, status in the Clans is based on your utility to your Clan. Your Clan will go to great length to find a place where you can be useful, but there are few inherent rights. If you have no utility or are a danger to the Clan, then you will have little or no status.
And no tech is going to test into the warrior caste.
No, we know that freeborns from any caste can and do test into the warrior caste in many/most Clans.
And they are brainwashed from BIRTH.
There’s no evidence of brainwashing in the Clans like what the Blakists engaged in during the Jihad. What you’re calling brainwashing is just socialization and education. Just because you disagree with the norms of a culture doesn’t mean that its members are brainwashed.
They ran away with a Matar, and instead of figuring out how to make it work, they simply belched the Stone Rhino.
The Stone Rhino _is_ making the Matar work. Lowering the mass of a robot or vehicle so its structure and motive system can handle its weight is a legitimate technical solution.
Really? They already had PAL suits in the SLDF. And the Mercury battlemech was the precursor of the Omnimech. That's no innovation. That's taking what you have, already tested, and perfecting it. Not innovation per se, but progression.
The leaps from the Nighthawk to the Elemental and from the Mercury to the Coyotl were not linear. They are fundamentally different war machines and those differences go to the heart of the game’s mechanics and require new rules. There are no comparable innovations (or much innovation at all) anywhere else during the Golden Century/Succession Wars.
-
The Clans are meant to be interesting
Then the effort largely failed for me at least. It's usually a bad sign when you decide that your "Interesting" villains must be so much better than your heroes that nothing can be done to defeat them. And doubling down on that by having so many clans that your players lose track of them(to the degree you need to get rid of a bunch of them down the line) doesn't make the group more interesting, it just makes each individual clan need to work harder to be interesting.
I don't like the clans and while some of that is from their society(which is pretty repugnant), and the way the fiction treats them(which is often obnoxiously positively), most of my reasons for disliking the clans is due to how unbalanced they are in game (and that they have advanced tech at all). It'll always bother me that a Caste-based culture run via Fight Club not only manages to preserve it's high tech base but actually invent tech that is so much better than that baseline that more than 100 years after the Clan Invasion, the Inner Sphere standard still lags behind it.
Luckily the Clans have very little actual effect on the Inner Sphere after the Invasion and are very ignorable. At least until the Dark Ages.
-
The Germans in WW2 had the nicest toys and uniforms, I could even understand their language. In a lot of other areas I was not so impressed.
As a tabletop wargamer, German equipment was for the beginners, I would rather play Allied and let the opponents have double the normal forces.
Anybody could field superior equipment.
The Clans are similar, except for their uniforms which were designed by some bored kid in high school...
-
*snip*
...a fictional nation that could never exist in a more realistic setting.
*snip*
I think you just summarized my dislike of the clan thing in fewer words than I ever could...
-
Thing is, BTU isn't really that realistic. We are talking about setting were most powerful warmachines are realistically inpractically giant robots and there are heroic pilots for those that survive anything is thrown at them. So really having way Clan society function way it does is small thing in comparison. And just like BattleMechs bring people around this game and it's setting so do Clans. So conclusion is that something being realistically inpractical isn't bad thing.
-
To me, at least, the clans are the EXTREME expression of the physical impossibility. BT 3025, or so, in general hits the sweet spot for me.
-
I like the clan factions on some level but dislike what it does to the politics of the Inner Sphere and possible future storylines. I don't want to get rid of them and their mechs entirely, but I'd prefer they weren't genocidal maniacs that unbalance everything with super advanced tech and bizarre ideas about mech combat, like the aversion to melee and the weird fixation on duels and honor and Trials of X.
Here's the alternate universe I usually live in:
1. Instead of leaving the inner sphere, Kerensky's SLDF forces stayed in the IS and became a UN peacekeeping force that only intervened to reduce civilian casualties and enforce norms to reduce crimes against humanity. The techs, diplomats, and merchants who become part of the SLDF forces keep the manufacturing and technological heights of the SLDF alive within the peacekeeping force, but it is forbidden to trade military tech to the successor states. Tech continues to advance in these enclaves. Because of the widespread prevalance of war, the forces are divided and scattered about the inner sphere to ensure fast response times. The peacekeeping forces rarely intervene, as the point is deterrence: no successor state wants to see a bunch of warships appear above a planet they are trying to conquer, dropping regiments of pristine battlemechs to completely annihilate the aggressor's forces.
2. Over time, the different peacekeeping commands (Wolf [Davion], Jade Falcon [Liao], Ghost Bear [DCMS], etc) develop their own cultures, which is unavoidably influenced by the state they are embedded in, even if strict neutrality and separation is the ideal. (Pick how crazy you want the clans to end up.) For example, if Wolf is stationed in Davion space, they will end up largely protecting Davion worlds from aggression, and will eventually sympathize with Davion.
3. At some point, an internal conflict over which side to take just before or just after some particularly egregious atrocity fractured the neutral SLDF forces, splintering it into a bunch of different groups with different Warden/Crusader philosophies.
4. Warden clans essentially became white hat mercenary groups, like the Wolf's Dragoons. Crusader clans became black hat mercenary groups, either mounting a military campaign to take over territory and start their own states, or nihilistic war-mongerers selling their services to the successor states for the highest bid. At this point, clan tech begins diffusing back into successor state militaries. They have similar philosophies to the clans due to the insularity that the embargo created, but are not quite as cartoonish or fascist. The Warden vs Crusader conflicts all carry over, because the Wolf Command is not going to tolerate the Jade Falcon Command's aggression and violence. The Crusader philosophy makes even more sense, because the neutral post-SLDF forces would see it as a betrayal for their comrades to turn advanced tech towards the goal of subjugating the civilians they were supposed to be protecting from the excesses of war; you would see Wolf deploy to counter Jade Falcon directly, even if it advanced the interests of a successor state that Wolf generally disapproved of.
Compatible with all the TROs, but no one is born from iron wombs, no bloodlines and eugenics, no Trials of X goofballery (I mean, not unless you are really into any of that), and you still get a "Clan Invasion" around 3050 when Operations Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar decide they have had enough of hanging back while violence tears the Inner Sphere apart, and Jade Falcon begins conquering worlds, Ghost Bear allies with DCMS, and Smoke Jaguar begins taking Merc contracts from the highest bidder to do the dirtiest deeds with impunity, or whatever you like.
This just makes more sense to me, and I get to field the Timberwolf. The Warden faction never made any particular sense unless you just wanted to give people someone to root for. The answer that clans are "aliens without being aliens" seems spot on. The way the clans fight one another and fail to unify to conquer the inner sphere is bonkers. It's all madness. If, instead, the different peace-keeping commands drift apart over time and develop different philosophies, it creates interesting tensions. How far does Operation Wolf go to protect its Davion "allies"? Is it willing to sacrifice its neutrality to step in and stop a ruinous defeat? If Jade Falcon is subjugating worlds outside its jurisdiction, does Wolf deploy troops to intervene? How does a people who have a strong anti-nationalism philosophy balance their ideals and perceived duty, once people as powerful as they are have abandoned the mission in favor of personal interests? Does Ghost Bear just dissolve into DCMS, or how does it stay independent? Does Smoke Jaguar destroy itself as an evil version of Wolf's Dragoons, or become even more influential and powerful?
-
Clans: Warriors of Kerensky is a sourcebook and a good/best source on Clan society in general. (And I had to look up the page number.)
It varies by Clan. Some have huge sibkos with ~100 sibkin from different lineages. In these Clans, nearly all of the sibkin wash out or die during the training and testing in the lead up to the Trial of Position. Other Clans have small sibkos of ~20 sibkin, often from a single geneparent pairing. These Clans have lower washout rates during training, but their Trials of Position are considerably more demanding. Either way, only a relative few sibkin join the warrior caste.
Again, strictly speaking, that’s not true. Freeborn's from other castes can earn entry into the warrior caste in many/most Clans. The Sharks/Foxes have a reserve of warrior-merchants that move between those two castes as needed. The Wolves and other Clans have recruited and retested warriors from lower castes to fill gaps in their toumans. Etc.
Perhaps it could be argued that, among the Sharks, the Warrior-Merchant is a caste itself? I remember reading a novel where that seemed to be the case. A merchant until you have to fight. Most likely I'm misremembering and, regrettably, I don't have access to the "Clans: Warriors of Kerensky sourcebook".
And as for their refilling of their ranks. The words "Cannon fodder" comes to mind. Do you really believe that in a society that much stratified they will use them for anything else? Remember the Falcon Guard and Aidan Pryde. Prestige missions will not be their bread and butter, but missions where death or victory are the only options.
Again, this is not true. Each caste in each Clan has its own council, responsible for the affairs of its caste, and the leaders of these caste councils (Merchant Factors, Scientists General, etc.) advise the warrior caste leadership.
I’m not saying that the Clans are a shining example of egalitarian democracy and self-determination. The Khan always has the final say unless he loses a Trial of Refusal. But neither are the lower castes indentured servants or serfs with no say in the affairs of their Clan.
Yup, Thank you for making my point. They advise. But their advice is NOT binding. Not even as a joke. All the other councils could vote against a decision of the warrior caste council and it would avail to nothing. And any mild disagreement would be met in force.
Do you imagine a protest in Clan space? How would it be met? how about a riot? Can you imagine a sec-agent trying to deescalate? In a culture where personal confrontation is ingrained since birth at every level?
It depends on the nature of the disgrace. Was the warrior a coward in battle? He can still serve his Clan in a lower caste. Was the warrior shipping weapons and slaves to the Bandit Caste? He’s a danger to the Clan. Put him on the frontlines to die ASAP. Or maybe execute him right away.
Like their real-world “barbarian” forbears, status in the Clans is based on your utility to your Clan. Your Clan will go to great length to find a place where you can be useful, but there are few inherent rights. If you have no utility or are a danger to the Clan, then you will have little or no status.
Won't fight you there. First, you are Natasha Kerensky. My bones would be dust in any real confrontation. And second, my gripe is precisely that. Usefulness to the Clan.
And who decides what is useful in a militaristic, Oligarchyc, totalitarian regime? They could be relegating to nothingness the next Shakespeare, or an unconventionally brilliant scientist, etc.
There’s no evidence of brainwashing in the Clans like what the Blakists engaged in during the Jihad. What you’re calling brainwashing is just socialization and education. Just because you disagree with the norms of a culture doesn’t mean that its members are brainwashed.
Sure. How is disagreement met in a sibko? With explanations and hugs? Or with a myomer whip to the throat? to a 5-year-old. How do think a hyper-aggressive parental figure behave when they, themselves were abused? Can you imagine Joana Jade Falcon as a caring sib-parent? Or as the vicious, sadistic, evil b...c she was all her life? No. Lessons are taught through pain, and blood.
How is recompense met?
What are they taught about their clan, the IS, the SLDF. What do you think would happen to a kid if he arrives at a conclusion different from the one supplied by the clan in regards to Kerensky? Would his opinion be respected? or removed with extreme prejudice?
I agree with something. You don't see aggressive short term brainwashing. But when you do it at an Orwellian level it's hardly necessary.
The Stone Rhino _is_ making the Matar work. Lowering the mass of a robot or vehicle so its structure and motive system can handle its weight is a legitimate technical solution.
Agree to disagree. The Stone Rhino is the defeat of ingenuity. It could work, eventually, but they didn't want to figure out how. It didn't fit the clan mold.
The leaps from the Nighthawk to the Elemental and from the Mercury to the Coyotl were not linear. They are fundamentally different war machines and those differences go to the heart of the game’s mechanics and require new rules. There are no comparable innovations (or much innovation at all) anywhere else during the Golden Century/Succession Wars.
Perhaps? I should concede because arguing against that would require intimate knowledge of inexistent technology. But you know, what? I concede. You are correct. Not because I'm convinced, but because if I can't make a valid argument against yours, and your interpretation is the only one viable, I must accept it as valid until more evidence presents itself.
-
See IMO, its not the caste, treatment of children, bondsmen, trial by combat, or even lip service eugenics that make the Clans 'alien' even if that is what people cite- all of those were recent historical common use- in the 80s they would have been even more recent but are subliminal ques to 'modern' sensibility for being 'evil.' Its the overlay of animal totems, specific loan word use, alternative unit structure (not NATO & Warsaw Pact), and disgust for contractions that overlays what would be considered alien practices to modern Western psyche.
Look back over 100 years and the attitude towards children is very different, to the point of being considered uncaring by modern standards. Depending on the society, they were often considered adults within a few years of turning 10- which was the roughly the point they were expected to survive. Numerous societies through history separated and trained children to be future soldiers- Sparta, Ottomon's janissaries, squires to knights, Czar Nicholas's Jewish & Karaite conscripts (1821), and more.
-
Look back over 100 years and the attitude towards children is very different, to the point of being considered uncaring by modern standards. Depending on the society, they were often considered adults within a few years of turning 10- which was the roughly the point they were expected to survive. Numerous societies through history separated and trained children to be future soldiers- Sparta, Ottomon's janissaries, squires to knights, Czar Nicholas's Jewish & Karaite conscripts (1821), and more.
The Janissaries and the spartans are two great examples, IMO. I can't comment on the Karaites, as I don't know their history.
And the greek, curiously the Athenians, admired the Spartans. But they made a horrible system based on human denigration. Ie. the killing of helots as part of their "training". They would have made a good Clan. Perhaps there's an idea there? Nah. Wolf clan is already taken.
Finally, i'm NOT applying societal-current cultural values to a 2000 years old culture. When you study history, as with any science, you leave your prejudices behind. That being said, some of their customs would find a good warm home on clan worlds.
-
I really hate this debate because it burns me out.
It comes across as "Your faction is bad and this is why is bad, stop being a fan."
I could take apart almost any other faction in BT the same way but the back and forth is just self destructive.
I enjoy the Clan because of Mechwarrior 2, I sometime have problems with the Inner Sphere because of the Neo Feudalism (which is not a problem in it self other than people romanticize it) but that's why the Clans are what I call a dark reflection of the IS; the Clans represent all of the IS war mongering striped of pretext.
-
I really hate this debate because it burns me out.
It comes across as "Your faction is bad and this is why is bad, stop being a fan."
I could take apart almost any other faction in BT the same way but the back and forth is just self destructive.
I enjoy the Clan because of Mechwarrior 2, I sometime have problems with the Inner Sphere because of the Neo Feudalism (which is not a problem in it self other than people romanticize it) but that's why the Clans are what I call a dark reflection of the IS; the Clans represent all of the IS war mongering striped of pretext.
No wait! I LOVE hating the clans! That's the whole point of this exercise! They are all terrible! Both the clans and the IS
At the beggining, when the setting was still in its infancy, you had clear cut factions: Davions convoluted-Good. Kuritan: Opposition. Not real baddies per se, and honorable. Capellans: Bad, period. Steiner: Stupid-good. FWL: everybody else punchbag.
When the setting matured, so did its factions. That's both good and bad. You lost your undisputed characteristic and all became a little more grey.
And the clans were supossed to be the new villains. But more advancement of the setting diluted that too. To the point they had to introduce new types of villains: Mary sue Wolf (Alaric) and Crazy B...c Jade Falcon (Malvina). (And Katherine and Vlad before that)
In a couple more of years, the dilemmas those guys bring about will also dilute, and new threats must present themselves to keel the franchise alive.
But that doesn't mean we can't have fun directing our hatred to our actual / former rivals.
-
Double post. Sorry
-
I really hate this debate because it burns me out.
It comes across as "Your faction is bad and this is why is bad, stop being a fan."
I could take apart almost any other faction in BT the same way but the back and forth is just self destructive.
I enjoy the Clan because of Mechwarrior 2, I sometime have problems with the Inner Sphere because of the Neo Feudalism (which is not a problem in it self other than people romanticize it) but that's why the Clans are what I call a dark reflection of the IS; the Clans represent all of the IS war mongering striped of pretext.
That was well said. I mean this kind of debates are pretty much pointless and no one generally gains anything from them but possible malice towards other people in community which is defenetly bad thing. I don't want to see BT fandom turn into same that SW fandom has turned into. We should be better than that and not forget that is our love for this franchise that unites us.
-
That was well said. I mean this kind of debates are pretty much pointless and no one generally gains anything from them but possible malice towards other people in community which is defenetly bad thing. I don't want to see BT fandom turn into same that SW fandom has turned into. We should be better than that and not forget that is our love for this franchise that unites us.
First, I´ll like to drop this quote. “We think the other side is blind to truth, reason, science, and common sense, but in fact, everyone goes blind when talking about their sacred objects.” – Jonathan Haidt
That being said, I disagree. This kind of debate if pretty much the idea. When a kid, my brother forced me into selecting a favorite baseball team, so we could play a TT baseball game. I did, and almost 45 years later, is still my team. And it is better than yours. And i chose it, as a child, purely on the reason for the neatness of their logo. My brother and i extracted enjoyment from our rivalry for years, until he passed away. Those are most of my best memories of him.
This is not about discrediting anyone's ideas, but enjoying yourself AND your friends over a pretend rivalry. I don't play as clan. I do hate them, but clan players? Those are my pals! and I'll do anything in my power to bring to dust the futility of their even imagining their stupid clan as a shadow of a chance of ever meeting my mercenaries on the field of battle. ;D
-
And as for their refilling of their ranks. The words "Cannon fodder" comes to mind. Do you really believe that in a society that much stratified they will use them for anything else?
You’re confusing solahma units with freeborn units. Not the same thing. Former is often cannon fodder. Latter forms the bulk of the garrison and some secondline clusters in many/most Clans.
They advise. But their advice is NOT binding. Not even as a joke... Any mild disagreement will be met with force.
This is utter hyperbole. As we’ve seen with the errant Society and unsupervised Scientist Caste, most Khans rubber stamp the decisions of their caste leaders and let the lower castes govern themselves by and large. Few Khans have the expertise, time, and interest to take a strong hand in the affairs of their lower castes.
For those that do, although the inputs may not be legally binding, no Khan with half a brain will ignore the advice of his caste leaders. A Khan may have to set that advice aside from time to time due to circumstances, but a Khan who repeatedly misrules his lower castes is only hurting his Clan and himself.
The Clans are tightly-knit, communal societies. They’re not modern, liberal democracies. They don’t need inches and inches of legal texts to partition governance and rights down to the last iota. They are unified in their purpose and work together for the betterment of their Clan. That’s why councils and expert advice has worked for a couple centuries for them to do the same things we get done under constitutions, competing branches of government, checks and balances, huge representative bodies, judicial review, and reams and reams of codified law.
Just because lower caste counsel is not legally binding does not mean that Khans don’t defer to it the vast majority of the time.
Do you imagine a protest in Clan space? How would it be met?
It has happened and the outcomes have depended on the circumstances. Lower caste revolts have been the death of some Clans (see Widowmakers) and the defining feature of others (Falcon Culling). The latest, the Scientist Caste/Society uprising in the middle of the Wars of Reaving, was arguably a factor in the destruction of several Homeworlds Clans.
Clan leaders who mistreat or ignore their lower castes do so at their own peril. It’s not a democracy, but the top of the pyramid can’t stand without the layers supporting it from below.
And who decides what is useful in a militaristic, Oligarchyc, totalitarian regime?
It depends on the individual and the circumstances.
In the canon, we often see old, unaccomplished, trueborn, solahma warriors choosing to end their lives in a last kamikaze charge in battle. This isn’t terribly different from stories of elderly members of certain tribal societies wandering into the wilderness to end their lives without adding burden to their communities. In these cases, the individual decides to sacrifice themself for the greater good.
If you’re accused of criminal acts, various caste councils act as juries to determine your fate. If guilty of extreme crimes, you will be exiled or executed, no different than any number of ancient and modern cultures.
Outside of these dramatic extremes, Clan society works to find a way to make everyone useful. People get reassigned all the time in the Clans. If you don’t test well as a warrior, you get reassigned as a scientist (Peri and others in the Falcon novels), merchant (Shark/Foxes), etc. In these cases, a trial of combat combined with other aptitude evaluations administered by the Scientist Caste are making the decision.
For the wartime decisions that drive the fiction in the BT universe, Clan Khans are essentially despots. But for everyday decision making, power is pretty widely and informally distributed in the Clans. Day-to-day Clan governance has more in common with your local school board, city council, and jury duty than a feudal oligarchy or totalitarian regime.
They could be relegating to nothingness the next Shakespeare, or an unconventionally brilliant scientist, etc.
There’s no evidence that Clan society is culturally stunted. From the Bears’ artistic great works to the Coyotes’ (ultimately out of control) cutting-edge scientific research to the Falcon bankers and Shark/Fox traders to the Scorpion archeologists and historians to Raven politicians, all the facets of human expression and endeavor are on display and advancing in Clan Society. The Clan caste system has not stifled any of this.
How is disagreement met in a sibko? With explanations and hugs? Or with a myomer whip to the throat? to a 5-year-old.
More hyperbole. Supply the canon novel or sourcebook passage where a five-year old sibkin was whipped.
Sibkin are raised and trained to become warriors in a martial society. Of course, their discipline will be exacting, in the same way that today’s basic training is more exacting than a vocational school (or a military academy is more exacting than a liberal arts college). But that doesn’t mean sibkos, basic training programs, and military academies accept and practice systemic abuse of their students.
Where sibkos, and the Clan warrior caste in general, diverge is in the use of ritualized combat trials to decide disagreements. Per the canon, this, along with certain live-fire exercises, does injure and kill some sibkin. There are precedents for this in cultures in real-world history. But more importantly, it’s central to the game. Clan trials exist to give players a chance to set up interesting and compelling scenarios. Complaining about the dangers of Clan sibkin trials in a game about combat is like complaining about loud music when listening to metal rock.
Would his opinion be respected?
It depends on the value to the Clan.
Like most societies, the Clans do value and incorporate new ideas and opinions. An advantageous strategy or tactic, a better gene combination, a new resource to exploit, a better approach to a business deal, a new weapon invention... these will all be appreciated and rewarded.
Diatribes against your Clan screamed from your enclave’s center while wearing a tinfoil hat and when you’re supposed to be working... yeah, that’s gonna get squashed.
But when you do it at an Orwellian level it's hardly necessary.
The diversity of Clan culture demonstrates that it’s not Orwellian.
The Stone Rhino... could work, eventually, but they didn't want to figure out how.
It’s a legal (and quite effective) unit in the game. It works, by definition. Otherwise, it would have the illegal design quirk.
-
First, I´ll like to drop this quote. “We think the other side is blind to truth, reason, science, and common sense, but in fact, everyone goes blind when talking about their sacred objects.” – Jonathan Haidt
Fair enough, I appreciate these topics because of that. I know that my dislike isn't nuanced, and it helps me round out my understanding to see why others like the Clans. I think it helps people gain a greater appreciation of their faction's grey nature when they actually engage in these discussions.
Because nothing drags the discourse down like assuming your faction is existing in a Black and White morality universe rather than in the Battletech universe where your faction is both better and worse than you may suppose.
But just like the Clans, spirited discussion isn't for everyone and we shouldn't presume that it is.
-
See Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, p. 34,
WOK isn't available PDF, is it? It and solaris are among those books that didn't get hit by the scanners.
Really odd choice of things to leave out, now that I think about it.
-
You’re confusing solahma units with freeborn units. Not the same thing. Former is often cannon fodder. Latter forms the bulk of the garrison and some secondline clusters in many/most Clans.
Would you mind if I say something, Natasha? I'll go on a limb and say it anyway. You are so much fun! Your answers are nuanced and thoroughly researched. You make your positions clear without resorting to fallacies. And show eagerness into pointing out the ones I have left hanging there. I know I have made them, and you pursue them relentlessly.
This is utter hyperbole. As we’ve seen with the errant Society and unsupervised Scientist Caste, most Khans rubber-stamp the decisions of their caste leaders and let the lower castes govern themselves by and large. Few Khans have the expertise, time, and interest to take a strong hand in the affairs of their lower castes.
Not hyperbole, extrapolation of the rule of law inferred by an appeal to extremes, a valid logic strategy to reach a conclusion. Let's do a little thought experiment here.
Let's suppose, for a second, a Khan is determined to eliminate a certain genetic legacy. He had a bad experience with a blood named warrior and think that particular gene strain is tainted beyond redemption. No good warrior will ever come out of it, in his opinion. But it was an extensively used genome. 10% of the population is related to it. And many of the best scientists, techs, etc. belong to it.
The Khan convinces the council to remove it. Can any of the lower castes oppose this decision? We are talking about genocide here. This is about eliminating 10% of the population for genetic reasons.
Yes, this is the War or Reaving scenario. And the only logical response was a revolution, because the warriors would do something and the other castes had no way to stop it but to fight them.
And most Clans does not mean ALL clans. And it is perfectly legal a Khan will come that will not care about what the lower castes want. Or do you think Malvina Hazen gives a .... about the opinion of any lower caste? She would cleanse them away in nuclear fire, literally, before even bothering to hear them.
And it would be perfectly legal for her to do so. That's my point. There's no control, whatsoever, to the power of the warrior. No check, no balances. That's what makes them so abhorrent. That most of them won't, doesn't mean they LEGALLY CAN'T . And Malvina doesn't seem to care if her clan survives.
The Clans are tightly-knit, communal societies. They’re not modern, liberal democracies. They don’t need inches and inches of legal texts to partition governance and rights down to the last iota. They are unified in their purpose and work together for the betterment of their Clan. That’s why councils and expert advice has worked for a couple centuries for them to do the same things we get done under constitutions, competing branches of government, checks and balances, huge representative bodies, judicial review, and reams and reams of codified law.
Just because lower caste counsel is not legally binding does not mean that Khans don’t defer to it the vast majority of the time.
Thank you for this. Indeed. They accept their recommendations when they suit them. When it doesn't, they don't because they don't have to. The clan doesn't serve their communities. They serve their warriors and that's a whole world of difference. Just imagine: Could the scientist caste ask the Khan to stop graduating warrior in order to provide more people to other castes? Think about the Coyotes, their scientist caste was absolutely genocided. Wouldn't it be best for their society to produce as many of the missing caste as they could? But they would never do that. The warrior caste would not allow it.
Clan leaders who mistreat or ignore their lower castes do so at their own peril. It’s not a democracy, but the top of the pyramid can’t stand without the layers supporting it from below.
Suure. As there's no ample historical evidence of the leadership oppressing a debased population and getting away with it.
It depends on the individual and the circumstances.
In the canon, we often see old, unaccomplished, trueborn, solahma warriors choosing to end their lives in a last kamikaze charge in battle. This isn’t terribly different from stories of elderly members of certain tribal societies wandering into the wilderness to end their lives without adding burden to their communities. In these cases, the individual decides to sacrifice themself for the greater good.
This I concede.
Outside of these dramatic extremes, Clan society works to find a way to make everyone useful.
I'm a sucker for dramatic extremes. They illustrate points extraordinarily well.
People get reassigned all the time in the Clans. If you don’t test well as a warrior, you get reassigned as a scientist (Peri and others in the Falcon novels), merchant (Shark/Foxes), etc. In these cases, a trial of combat combined with other aptitude evaluations administered by the Scientist Caste are making the decision.
I submit to your superior knowledge of the lore on this. I grant that mobility is not in stasis. But insist that it should be nearly so.
For the wartime decisions that drive the fiction in the BT universe, Clan Khans are essentially despots.
Slipped on this, my friend. The setting, and the clans, in particular, live in a constant state of war. That means they are constant despots according to your argument.
There’s no evidence that Clan society is culturally stunted. From the Bears’ artistic great works to the Coyotes’ (ultimately out of control) cutting-edge scientific research to the Falcon bankers and Shark/Fox traders to the Scorpion archeologists and historians to Raven politicians, all the facets of human expression and endeavor are on display and advancing in Clan Society. The Clan caste system has not stifled any of this.
They have NO LITERATURE. Aidan Pryde had to have a secret stash of books, as having the rest of his caste learn about it would have destroyed him.
More hyperbole. Supply the canon novel or sourcebook passage where a five-year old sibkin was whipped.
I concede I won't find a specific example. But let's imagine something. If that happened, what would the consequence be? None i bet.
And Joana DID strangle Aidan once. But he was no longer a kid. I think that is on Lethal Heritage. Page "I have no idea"
Sibkin are raised and trained to become warriors in a martial society. Of course, their discipline will be exacting, in the same way, that today’s basic training is more exacting than a vocational school (or a military academy is more exacting than a liberal arts college). But that doesn’t mean sibkos, basic training programs, and military academies accept and practice systemic abuse of their students.
Ehh. You didn't go to military school, did you? Calling someone an "Oxygen Thief" or any other demeaning remarks is not out of line, today, in a democratic society. What would happen in a military centered one?
The diversity of Clan culture demonstrates that it’s not Orwellian.
What does diversity has to do with that? That's a non sequitur. You can be a different kinds of Orwellian and still be one totalitarian state.
It’s a legal (and quite effective) unit in the game. It works, by definition. Otherwise, it would have the illegal design quirk.
Of course it works! That's not the point. The point is that superheavies were possible. And that the clans had superior technology, but not enough ingenuity to make it work. Until the RoS proved it could be done, 200 (?) or so years the clanner sat on their hand with full plans of revolutionary technology, fully unwilling to make it work because it didn't conform to their thinking. And thinking outside the mold is severely punished.
-
Something to remember is that the clans aren't one society. The Jade Falcons have no literature, probably as a result of their early purge. The Scorpions probably require all sibkin to read the complete Shakespeare.
Several clans allow no freeborn mobility to the military caste. Others only cut off the top four ranks, star colonel and above.
Klan Kzinti, I mean Smoke Jaguar, disdain much above 'scream and leap.' The Scorpions trained the Dragoons to Star League standards, the Vipers have formal tactics they teach, Hells Horses and Star Adder are combined arms fanatics.
-
Fair enough, I appreciate these topics because of that. I know that my dislike isn't nuanced, and it helps me round out my understanding to see why others like the Clans. I think it helps people gain a greater appreciation of their faction's grey nature when they actually engage in these discussions.
Because nothing drags the discourse down like assuming your faction is existing in a Black and White morality universe rather than in the Battletech universe where your faction is both better and worse than you may suppose.
But just like the Clans, a spirited discussion isn't for everyone and we shouldn't presume that it is.
Indeed, my friend. I enjoy debating. And it seems good Natasha and some others do too. If she or someone else become bothered by my assertions I'll apologize and stop. I'm not here to be angry or to make anyone angry at me. I'm here to discuss a hobby i love.
-
I really hate this debate because it burns me out.
What is there to debate? Opinions concerning the Clans are subjective so why debate? You may as well debate preferences of ice cream flavors.
"I don't like the Clans."
"Their equipment is superior."
"The equipment would be superior without the Clans."
-
What is there to debate? Opinions concerning the Clans are subjective so why debate? You may as well debate preferences of ice cream flavors.
"I don't like the Clans."
"Their equipment is superior."
"The equipment would be superior without the Clans."
Hey!, no immersion-breaking here! ;D
Yes, we are discussing pretend nations, pretend technologies, and pretend everything else. We even have less of an excuse to get angry than football fans. And they are already on real thin ice.
-
Hey!, no immersion-breaking here! ;D
Umm.. this isn't a RP session.
What is there to debate? Opinions concerning the Clans are subjective so why debate? You may as well debate preferences of ice cream flavors.
"I don't like the Clans."
"Their equipment is superior."
"The equipment would be superior without the Clans."
I guess I'm not one for online debates, the internet is tone deaf and too often comes off as teeth gnashing,
I not saying you need to like the Clans, exclude them, shoot them, whatever but reading players hate the clans? I don't like the WoB but I don't hate them. It's a freak'n game and there is too much going on in the real world to be that emotionally invested in a fictional faction of a fictional universe.
-
If I started a "Does Anyone Else Hate The Davions?" thread, it would be locked and disappeared to only the mods know where in less than a day. Lol...
-
We are talking about genocide here. This is about eliminating 10% of the population for genetic reasons.
The Clans have a process for discontinuing the use of certain bloodlines in the trueborn genepool. It’s called a Trial of Reaving. It’s normally done for some reasonable justification, like the bloodline is grossly underperforming. It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns. It’s not an example of genocide.
That said, Clans have undertaken genocidal campaigns in the distant (Wolverines) and recent past (Blood Spirits). And in fact, Trials of Reaving were abused in the most recent examples during the Wars of Reaving. But these are inter-Clan wars, not examples of Khans abusing their power internally.
Most major factions in the BT universe have committed atrocities in their history. For every annihilated Clan, there’s dozens of nuked Spheroid worlds and Kentares Massacres. It’s the nature of war, and this is a wargame.
Yes, this is the War or Reaving scenario.
It’s not. The Wars of Reaving was an inter-Clan conflict. Your example was of a Khan abusing his power within his Clan.
Or do you think Malvina Hazen gives a .... about the opinion of any lower caste? She would cleanse them away in nuclear fire, literally, before even bothering to hear them.
And it would be perfectly legal for her to do so. That's my point. There's no control, whatsoever, to the power of the warrior. No check, no balances.
Bad leadership is bad leadership. It’s not unique to the Clans or even to the BT universe. For every Malvina Hazen, there’s a Stefan Amaris. For every Stefan Amaris, there’s any number of real-world leaders who abused (or are abusing) their powers against their own people. One only has to read history to understand that laws, checks and balances, divisions of power, etc. are no guarantee against determined, unscrupulous, and power-mad individuals, especially in times of crisis. (I’m not going to identify any specific real-world examples to avoid a Rule #4 warning.) Personalities matter in the end.
Could the scientist caste ask the Khan to stop graduating warrior in order to provide more people to other castes? Think about the Coyotes, their scientist caste was absolutely genocided. Wouldn't it be best for their society to produce as many of the missing caste as they could?
Something like 90% of sibkin never become warriors. They move to lower castes. So they’re already throwing off tons of scientists (or pick your favorite caste). I don’t see the Scientist Caste in any Clan needing to ask for more scientists out of the sibkos.
But they would never do that. The warrior caste would not allow it.
Honestly, the Coyote Khans have a darn good reason for placing heavy restrictions on their Scientist Caste after the WoR. After all, it was the Coyote Scientist Caste that started and harbored the bulk of the Society rebellion! It nearly led to complete destruction of their Clan. The surviving Clans are still watching the Coyotes for evidence of sedition. Expecting the Coyotes to let the leashes off their scientists post-WoR is totally unrealistic. It’s like giving gasoline and matches to a roommate or kid who nearly burned down the house last year.
Slipped on this, my friend. The setting, and the clans, in particular, live in a constant state of war. That means they are constant despots according to your argument.
The Clans live in a constant state of raiding (just like the Successor States). There’s a huge difference between, say, Operation Revival or the Wars of Reaving and some trinary-sized Trials of Possession.
Moreover, my point was that Khans are the ultimate decision makers on matters military, from raids to wars. But that doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly going to take an interest in say, a lower-caste labor dispute, when there’s a big Trial of Absorption going on. Just the opposite, actually. (What field general has time for a labor dispute when they have a war to prosecute?)
I’d also note that some, maybe most, Clan raiding is driven by lower caste input. A Khan doesn’t magically know that he needs bloodline A, design B, or resource C. His lower caste leadership is going to inform him of these opportunities, needs, and shortfalls.
Lower caste issues are even the casus belli for some major Clan wars. The Widowmakers were absorbed because their merchants complained to the Wolves. Anyone who thinks the lower castes are powerless has not read about Clan society and history carefully.
They have NO LITERATURE.
Objectively and obviously wrong. See The Rememberance.
Aidan Pryde had to have a secret stash of books, as having the rest of his caste learn about it would have destroyed him.
And the Scorpions go far out of their way to recover lost and ancient documents.
Individual Clans are different. Some are highly controlling of their populations (Falcons) and others are not (Wolves), just like in the real world.
If that happened, what would the consequence be?
Probably severe. That five-year old trueborn represents a major investment by that Clan in its future. Abusing trueborn potential future warriors is probably second only to abusing actual trueborn warriors.
Calling someone an "Oxygen Thief" or any other demeaning... What would happen in a military centered one?
Clanners use epithets like “surat” and “stravag” all the time.
What does diversity has to do with that? That's a non sequitur. You can be a different kinds of Orwellian and still be one totalitarian state.
An Orwellian society insists on conformance. The fact that the Clans have such diversity — Bear artistic works, Coyote scientific research, Scorpion archeology/history, Falcon bankers, Shark/Fox traders, Raven politics, Mandrill divisiveness, Spirit inclusiveness — indicates that it is not an Orwellian society.
There are Orwellian aspects of Clan society — most especially the whole Not-Named Clan thing — but it’s not Orwellian on the whole.
Of course it works! That's not the point. The point is that superheavies were possible. And that the clans had superior technology, but not enough ingenuity to make it work. Until the RoS proved it could be done, 200 (?) or so years the clanner sat on their hand with full plans of revolutionary technology, fully unwilling to make it work because it didn't conform to their thinking. And thinking outside the mold is severely punished.
It was the Blakists, not the Republic, that proved out superheavy tech.
Moreover, I’d take a standard Stone Rhino over any of the mediocre to just plain awful published superheavies to date.
All this proves is that the Blakists and Republic were stupid enough to expend lots of resources on underperforming technology and designs when they should have just been replicating a lighter Clantech assault. Just like the Clans did. 200 (or however many) years ago.
-
Objectively and obviously wrong. See The Remembrance.
Hey, Nathasha, this may sound strange, but would you please help me with this? I do remember that Aidan Pryde had to hide his stock of books, or risk its destruction as no literature was allowed. But I read that on the "Blood of Kerensky Trilogy" some 20 years ago. I also remember that, save for the Remembrance, some clans didn't have any literature, but for the life of me can't remember the source. Greatclub also mentioned it, so it reinforced my probably false memory.
You have demonstrated superior knowledge of the lore and access to the sourcebooks, at least one I don't own: WoK. Would you kindly confirm if such is the case? I do have all the classic novels and many of the sourcebooks, but the lore is so extensive that I can't possibly hope to find that specific reference to mount my counter-argument without help.
Thanks in any case.
-
some clans didn't have any literature, but for the life of me can't remember the source
I don’t know this source.
On the Falcons, I’m sure you’re remembering the novel passage about Aidan Pryde correctly, but that doesn’t mean the Falcons have no literature. Aidan may just have not been allowed access to books at that time by superiors or trainers, or he may have been avoiding a beatdown by peers for being the Clan equivalent of a nerd.
In addition to their Remembrance, the Falcons have The Legend of Turkina. These are lengthy (especially the Remembrance) and central to their founding and history. They must be written down.
Even societies without paper or printing can pass down an elaborate oral literature from generation to generation. For example, Norse mythology is second only to Greek/Roman in the Western tradition, and some Norse sagas have the most elaborate poetry ever devised. But the Norse had no books. They transmitted all that stuff from memory. Beowulf (which actually predates the Norse) is actually the oldest surviving story written in English, but it’s actually about Geats from today’s Sweden and Danes. And for centuries before some East Anglian descendent of the Geats had it put to paper in Old English, Beowulf was a story only told in Proto-Norse around fires in mead halls.
I don't own: WoK.
Sending a PM.
-
no, he found them in a hidden cache and only told Horse about them. After he died, Horse gave them to Diana.
IIRC, there is a bit in the second book in that series (Bloodname) there is a scene where he lies to his superior officer about where he found a book and its fate.
Aidan was also known to have a love for literature, something nearly unheard of among the Jade Falcon warriors. At some point he came into the possession of a collection of print-on-paper books taken from a Brian Cache in which he was assigned garrison duty. He transported this collection with him from duty to duty throughout the rest of his career, learning a great deal about ancient Terran culture from them, though the ideas contained on the pages often left him with more questions than answers.
-
Kael Pershaw also seemed to know about Aidan's book stash, too. Or at least he made a remark about it later in The Falcon Guard while Aidan was fighting on Tukayyid.
I had hope that that might change things with the Falcons, that humanities has a place in warrior education, but Malvina says it did not. Damn.
-
The Ghost Bears have the 'Great Work' which is a lifetime work of art in progress- Jake Kabrinski is painting a canvas, they actually do talk about someone writing for it IIRC.
-
I could see a Ghost Bear's Great Work being a novel or three. Probably rare. But not non-existant.
-
I still don’t see a clear statement in these references that the Falcons have no literature.
All this seems to prove is that Aidan came across a bunch of ancient texts with strange ideas (to him) which he chose to keep to himself (and Horse), that most Falcon warriors have no love of literature, and that Aidan feared his superiors finding out about his stash.
None of that rules out the Falcons creating their own literature, reprinting texts besides the ones Aidan found, or other castes taking a greater interest in books.
-
Right. In the novel Bloodname, where Aidan's book collection is first introduced, it mentioned that warriors do not read books outside of training manuals or the Remembrance. They could produce literature, but it has no place in a Jade Falcon warrior's life.
-
in regards to literature, WoK (p.49) actually says literature is practically unknown in the Clans aside from the Remembrance
but while this is true, this doesn't mean the Clans are culturally stunted, they have drama, music, dance, etc...there's even a cartoon for kids, a "super-caste" that is a combination of merchants and laborers has evolved to provide entertainment to civilians
heck, some Clanners practice religion (and there are several religions still practiced in the Clans, albeit most are Cloud Cobras)
-
I guess I'm not one for online debates, the internet is tone deaf and too often comes off as teeth gnashing,
I enjoy online debates but not over fiction, as it is subjective.
I not saying you need to like the Clans, exclude them, shoot them, whatever but reading players hate the clans? I don't like the WoB but I don't hate them. It's a freak'n game and there is too much going on in the real world to be that emotionally invested in a fictional faction of a fictional universe.
I don't hate anybody in the real world. I was a Cold War soldier with a lot of friends who escaped from Communism and I never bothered to hate Communists.
When people from the Socialist Party would show up at my door, I'd call my neighbor, Teodor and say, "My friend Teodor escaped from Prague in 1968, if you can convince him to support your party, I'll donate some money." They'd apologize and walk away, because you can't sell Socialism to somebody who lost everything to Socialism and had to start their life over in another country.
-
I AM saying everyone needs to hate the Clans...
The Clans have no documented proof that they love baked treats... savages...
Any society without at least ONE day a year devoted to the conspicuous consumption of baked sweets (or other culturally appropriate foods <--- literalist insurance!!) is a barbaric travesty of subhuman social degeneracy!! :D
LONG LIVE THE FRITTERS!!
I've been on my diet too long....please send cookies...
-
WOK isn't available PDF, is it? It and solaris are among those books that didn't get hit by the scanners.
Really odd choice of things to leave out, now that I think about it.
I also tend to be a bit skeptical of The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky. It's an IC report on the Clans by Phelan Kell, and Phelan is an enthusiastic Clan convert who was deliberately trying to put the Clans in a good light. He had a definite political agenda in that book. I don't think Phelan necessarily lies that much, but he has very visible biases. Some of those are obvious and factional, such as being strongly pro-Wolf, but some are more subtle. WoK is definitely a book that wants you to be sympathetic to the Clans. It is written against an assumed IS audience who think of the Clans as inhuman monsters.
I not saying you need to like the Clans, exclude them, shoot them, whatever but reading players hate the clans? I don't like the WoB but I don't hate them. It's a freak'n game and there is too much going on in the real world to be that emotionally invested in a fictional faction of a fictional universe.
I think in the context of this topic, you have to grant that "I hate the Clans" can mean several different things.
Often hating a faction in an IC sense can be a good thing - if it's motivating, if you love fighting against them, if you find them compelling enemies. On the other hand, you might hate fighting against them OOC, if you find them boring or un-fun or anything else.
That said, I'm mostly in the anti-Clan camp, and by that I mean primarily two things.
The first is that IC, I think the Clans are very clearly a villain faction. This goes even for the most sympathetic of them: in my judgement the Clans are approximately as villainous as the Word of Blake, and worse than any of the great houses. That doesn't mean that they don't have a place in the game or the setting, or that they're not fun. You need villains, and the Clans were scary, powerful, and much-needed shake-up to the setting when they invaded. I enjoy fighting against Clans and I enjoy fighting as the Clans. I just think the Clans are, for lack of a better term, the bad guys.
The second criticism I have of them is OOC, and that's that from a storytelling perspective, I think the Clans have stuck around too long. They were great villains during the Clan Invasion arc, but after that, they seemed to just stick around aimlessly for a while, as more interesting things happen elsewhere in the Sphere, and then by the Dark Age you have the Clans generally joining and modifying Inner Sphere societies to suit them. This makes me sad because I think it chokes off other, potentially more interesting stories and factions. For example, I feel like the Ghost Bear absorption of Rasalhague and the Snow Raven absorption of the Outworlds Alliance both served to effectively kill off interesting, vibrant factions that I would have been interested in playing, and instead they've replaced those factions with much less interesting Clan-ified versions. So my OOC feeling is that the Clans should have been handled more like the Word of Blake: giant invasion, entire plot arc around them, and then they're defeated and go away for a bit. That's not to say they couldn't come back again, or have some continuing relevance or even mechanical support (after all, the Blakists may well have evolved into something else and could come back in Dark Age). Rather, it's to say that they shouldn't have become a permanent mainstay of the setting. The Clans are a nice bit of sauce to put on top of my Inner Sphere pie - but that doesn't mean I want an entire slice of Clan pie.
Part of that criticism is also linked to my perception that BattleTech, well, probably has too many factions and is too bloated. Getting people into BattleTech is tricky enough as it is, and publishing support for the Clans gets to be too heavy a load. There are half a dozen or so significant Clans in the Inner Sphere now (Wolves, Falcons, Bears, Horses, Ravens, Sharkfoxes) plus some smaller spin-offs (Wolves-in-Exile, Spirit Cats, Wolf's Dragoons, etc.), which means that the Clans by themselves are as many factions as the great houses. I feel like the Dark Age needs six great houses as a baseline (counting the Republic as one), so the Clans by themselves double that. It might be a bit less in practice because often the Clans are rolled into a single TRO, while the great houses all get their own, but even so, the Clans are still taking up a hell of a lot of the quite limited supply of ink and page time. For me the Clans as a whole are approximately as interesting and valuable as one great house, so I find myself constantly feeling like the Clans are getting a truly disproportionate amount of focus, while the more important great houses are neglected. So I think there's a publishing issue there.
From an OOC perspective, then, my beef with the Clans is that they are firstly colonising and destroying factions that I liked and wanted to see more of, and secondly by their continued, disproportionate present in the metaplot, are excluding material for factions that I like and want to see more of.
-
no, he found them in a hidden cache and only told Horse about them. After he died, Horse gave them to Diana.
It was the Twilight series.
-
The second criticism I have of them is OOC, and that's that from a storytelling perspective, I think the Clans have stuck around too long. They were great villains during the Clan Invasion arc, but after that, they seemed to just stick around aimlessly for a while, as more interesting things happen elsewhere in the Sphere, and then by the Dark Age you have the Clans generally joining and modifying Inner Sphere societies to suit them. This makes me sad because I think it chokes off other, potentially more interesting stories and factions. For example, I feel like the Ghost Bear absorption of Rasalhague and the Snow Raven absorption of the Outworlds Alliance both served to effectively kill off interesting, vibrant factions that I would have been interested in playing, and instead they've replaced those factions with much less interesting Clan-ified versions. So my OOC feeling is that the Clans should have been handled more like the Word of Blake: giant invasion, entire plot arc around them, and then they're defeated and go away for a bit. That's not to say they couldn't come back again, or have some continuing relevance or even mechanical support (after all, the Blakists may well have evolved into something else and could come back in Dark Age). Rather, it's to say that they shouldn't have become a permanent mainstay of the setting. The Clans are a nice bit of sauce to put on top of my Inner Sphere pie - but that doesn't mean I want an entire slice of Clan pie.
Part of that criticism is also linked to my perception that BattleTech, well, probably has too many factions and is too bloated. Getting people into BattleTech is tricky enough as it is, and publishing support for the Clans gets to be too heavy a load. There are half a dozen or so significant Clans in the Inner Sphere now (Wolves, Falcons, Bears, Horses, Ravens, Sharkfoxes) plus some smaller spin-offs (Wolves-in-Exile, Spirit Cats, Wolf's Dragoons, etc.), which means that the Clans by themselves are as many factions as the great houses. I feel like the Dark Age needs six great houses as a baseline (counting the Republic as one), so the Clans by themselves double that. It might be a bit less in practice because often the Clans are rolled into a single TRO, while the great houses all get their own, but even so, the Clans are still taking up a hell of a lot of the quite limited supply of ink and page time. For me the Clans as a whole are approximately as interesting and valuable as one great house, so I find myself constantly feeling like the Clans are getting a truly disproportionate amount of focus, while the more important great houses are neglected. So I think there's a publishing issue there.
From an OOC perspective, then, my beef with the Clans is that they are firstly colonising and destroying factions that I liked and wanted to see more of, and secondly by their continued, disproportionate present in the metaplot, are excluding material for factions that I like and want to see more of.
What would you think if the factions that got wiped out rose up against the clans in a later iteration of the fiction? Do you have any feeling that it's like being a Cubs fan or something, where excitement about your faction requires some "down times"?
-
What would have been interesting for me is if the big 5 players broke up to have way more factions in the universe. The clan invasion would have been s great moment to do that, instituting IS-eide chaos. The clans could be beaten and become part of those smaller hodge-podge factions. Right now this is not really the case. For me the best map was the one we got when the fwl imploded. I like d that and thought that it was a lost opportunity when a similar implosion did not happen in other factions and the fwl recovered instantly to be able to cope with the othe rbig guys.
-
What would have been interesting for me is if the big 5 players broke up to have way more factions in the universe. The clan invasion would have been s great moment to do that, instituting IS-eide chaos. The clans could be beaten and become part of those smaller hodge-podge factions. Right now this is not really the case. For me the best map was the one we got when the fwl imploded. I like d that and thought that it was a lost opportunity when a similar implosion did not happen in other factions and the fwl recovered instantly to be able to cope with the othe rbig guys.
Well . . . it was not instantly, it was 60+ years and the band is not all back together yet. The last PTB decided to shrink the faction numbers down- they even were shrinking them beyond pre-Jihad levels. We lost half dozen Clans, the Home Worlds dropped out of the narrative, Warden Wolves and Nova Cats were wiped out, all the little factions around the Republic/Fortress disappeared, Filtevelt is shrinking, and they probably putting the path of the Taurian re-unification in place.
-
What would you think if the factions that got wiped out rose up against the clans in a later iteration of the fiction? Do you have any feeling that it's like being a Cubs fan or something, where excitement about your faction requires some "down times"?
Nah, being a FWL fan is a lot closer than the Clans are to the Cubs. The FWL has had practically nothing except "down time" since the beginning of the franchise, while he Clans have remained a relevant and constantly covered part of the setting since their arrival.
-
The FWL is easily the most likely to have internal fighting at the company and lance level throughout the timeline.
-
I AM saying everyone needs to hate the Clans...
The Clans have no documented proof that they love baked treats... savages...
Any society without at least ONE day a year devoted to the conspicuous consumption of baked sweets (or other culturally appropriate foods <--- literalist insurance!!) is a barbaric travesty of subhuman social degeneracy!! :D
LONG LIVE THE FRITTERS!!
I've been on my diet too long....please send cookies...
You mean the Clans don't have Paczki Day? Bunch of Philistines!
-
The Clans have a process for discontinuing the use of certain bloodlines in the trueborn genepool. It’s called a Trial of Reaving. It’s normally done for some reasonable justification, like the bloodline is grossly underperforming. It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns. It’s not an example of genocide.
Ok. Underperforming how? Are they lacking scientifically? they don't repair the mechs prompt enough? No. They underperform as WARRIORS, the only caste that matters. So, a specific sector of the population, defined by its genetics, is killed by a perceived lack of usefulness.
A judgment Performed by a minority in control of the government.
And it doesn't matter if you are a warrior of not. If your bloodname is determined to be "tainted", you are going to die independently of what you did, or which caste you are a part of.
No, that's not a textbook definition of genocide. Oh, wait! It is!!!!
And before you tell me they have to go to trial first, remember: The ones defending themselves are the ones who ARE ALREADY found wanting. So, what do you think is going to happen?
That said, Clans have undertaken genocidal campaigns in the distant (Wolverines) and recent past (Blood Spirits). And in fact, Trials of Reaving were abused in the most recent examples during the Wars of Reaving. But these are inter-Clan wars, not examples of Khans abusing their power internally.
So, trials of genocide are a tool of conformity control in the clans. Whether a Clan (Wolverines, Steel Vipers) is to be wiped or a gene sequence (reaving) And the reason is merely political.
And thanks for bringing the Wolverines up. Remember how, after they were annihilated, all sibkos that contained Wolverine genes were... reaved? Children were told of what happened and encouraged to take their own lives. Which they did. Whole fields of youngsters dead at the feet of their elders, Dead by their own hands.
Way to commit two atrocities, Nick! Brainwash effectivity at 100% and genocide too! (And don't come and tell me that a child taking his own life for perceived genetic taints is not the consequence of brainwashing.
Most major factions in the BT universe have committed atrocities in their history. For every annihilated Clan, there’s dozens of nuked Spheroid worlds and Kentares Massacres. It’s the nature of war, and this is a wargame.
Of course they did!. But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.
It’s not. The Wars of Reaving was an inter-Clan conflict. Your example was of a Khan abusing his power within his Clan.
No, my example did not depend on the Khan. The council could do genocide too. And the point was to demonstrate that genocide is not exceptional behavior in the clans, but a normal tool of social control of the clans.
Bad leadership is bad leadership. It’s not unique to the Clans or even to the BT universe. For every Malvina Hazen, there’s a Stefan Amaris. For every Stefan Amaris, there’s any number of real-world leaders who abused (or are abusing) their powers against their own people. One only has to read history to understand that laws, checks and balances, divisions of power, etc. are no guarantee against determined, unscrupulous, and power-mad individuals, especially in times of crisis. (I’m not going to identify any specific real-world examples to avoid a Rule #4 warning.) Personalities matter in the end.
Of course. But checks and balances make excess more difficult to accomplish. Bad leaders have first to overcome that for them to do real evil. Ie: Malvina Hazen had to make a trial of possession for her clan, eschewing clan tradition, before embarking in her worst violations.
Something like 90% of sibkin never become warriors. They move to lower castes. So they’re already throwing off tons of scientists (or pick your favorite caste). I don’t see the Scientist Caste in any Clan needing to ask for more scientists out of the sibkos.
Quite possible. I concede.
The Clans live in a constant state of raiding (just like the Successor States). There’s a huge difference between, say, Operation Revival or the Wars of Reaving and some trinary-sized Trials of Possession.
Moreover, my point was that Khans are the ultimate decision makers on matters military, from raids to wars. But that doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly going to take an interest in say, a lower-caste labor dispute, when there’s a big Trial of Absorption going on. Just the opposite, actually. (What field general has time for a labor dispute when they have a war to prosecute?)
Khans are the ultimate authority for their clan. If a Khan doesn't want any more trade with another clan, no merchant council is going to overrule him. An even though an economic war is too sly for a regular clan, the more devious could easily decide to do this to weaken a military post before attacking.
And they live from "trial" to "trial". Absorbing, annihilating, grieving (?, that's the word? English is not my native tongue). Their economy is driven by conflict. As you say, this is a wargame. They either are in a constant state of war to make things interesting, or they aren't.
I’d also note that some, maybe most, Clan raiding is driven by lower caste input. A Khan doesn’t magically know that he needs bloodline A, design B, or resource C. His lower caste leadership is going to inform him of these opportunities, needs, and shortfalls.
Of course, because clanners are not enamored of particular bloodnames, and want to incorporate in their clans. How many trials have been conducted for the Kerensky bloodname? How many more are going to be fought? The wolves keep it in their ranks thanks to resilience, skill, and grit. And no scientist is advising anyone to acquire it.
Objectively and obviously wrong. See The Remembrance.
Heh. No, I'm not. Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown, save The Remembrance and the works mentioned in this thread. So, I'm clearly correct in a surreptitious way? Well, the contrary of what you said!
So imagine. A whole 31st-century civilization without literature. And while it is not mandatory for a civilization to have literature, it sure is telling of their level of culture.
An Orwellian society insists on conformance. The fact that the Clans have such diversity — Bear artistic works, Coyote scientific research, Scorpion archeology/history, Falcon bankers, Shark/Fox traders, Raven politics, Mandrill divisiveness, Spirit inclusiveness — indicates that it is not an Orwellian society.
The fact that each of the clans has different traditions doesn't mean that each clan doesn't conduct its own version of indoctrination. Or that they don't spy on their citizens in their own way. What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.
There are Orwellian aspects of Clan society — most especially the whole Not-Named Clan thing — but it’s not Orwellian on the whole.
So, if the Spirits do Orwellian things, and so do the Wolves, the green canaries, the smoked Jaguars, etc, it doesn't mean the clans, as a whole, are Orwellian?. Well, if it walks like a duck, look like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, can i call it a duck?
It was the Blakists, not the Republic, that proved out superheavy tech.
Yes. The crazy guys did it before the clans. The ones 200 years behind them on the technology curve. Good point!
Moreover, I’d take a standard Stone Rhino over any of the mediocre to just plain awful published superheavies to date.
Your choice. A superheavy with the movement profile of the Atlas is not something to be taken lightly
All this proves is that the Blakists and Republic were stupid enough to expend lots of resources on underperforming technology and designs when they should have just been replicating a lighter Clantech assault. Just like the Clans did. 200 (or however many) years ago.
Say WHAT? A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer. (Don't go over that limit, is not worth it). Don't diss it until you try it.
-
Hey Codigo,
I don't think anyone would argue against the proposition: "The clans are a civilization organized around violence."
Here's the difference between totalitarianism and the clans: In a totalitarian society, the government reserves a monopoly on violence, and that is the essence of why it must become evil. Eventually, someone directs the totalitarian nature of the government/civilization towards an ends that is destructive, and they use the (legal) legitimacy of state violence to impose their program against opposition. Fear is the main tool of domestic policy.
The clans are not quite that. Every society organizes itself around some notion of status and power: physical, economic, intellectual, religious, whatever. The clans picked status based on physical ability to impose one's will. If you're Khan, you can direct the clan the way you want, unless you anger enough people that they send a champion to end your rule. You don't see people in totalitarian regimes "standing up" to their rulers. You do see it in liberal democratic states, through elections, because the organizing principles of society are different. The Khan can't just execute you because you question their leadership, they will call you out as a coward and instigate a duel.
I think this distinction is why people are more willing to defend the clans. It's a dumb organizing principle for society at large, but if you have no moral values you think are uniquely sacred, it makes as much sense as economic, political, or religious states. I mean, I've had bosses that I would like to challenge to a Trial of Position. It has a kind of appeal to it.
-
And it doesn't matter if you are a warrior of not. If your bloodname is determined to be "tainted", you are going to die independently of what you did, or which caste you are a part of.
If you want to debate then you might want to provide a source that refutes "It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns", without it people can just disregard whatever you say.
But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.
And promptly ignored by the Houses when the Ares Conventions became inconvenient.
Heh. No, I'm not. Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown, save The Remembrance and the works mentioned in this thread.
That page also states that their stories are mostly oral instead of written.
What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.
That is stretching the meaning of Orwellian to near uselessness.
So, if the Spirits do Orwellian things, and so do the Wolves, the green canaries, the smoked Jaguars, etc, it doesn't mean the clans, as a whole, are Orwellian?. Well, if it walks like a duck, look like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, can i call that bird a duck?
Except that it walks like a bear, look like a cat and swims like a shark and sounds like a zoo. In other words there are vast differences between the Clans, so we can't treat it as a single entity except in the most broadest sense.
Say WHAT? A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer. (Don't go over that limit, is not worth it). Don't diss it until you try it.
Not without the infrastructure to service and deploy it, lowering the weight was the most practical solution.
-
Ares Convention only become thing for practical reasons. As in Great Houses were about to lose means to wage war so they chose too limit warfare instead of ending it. This was made very clear in fiction. In that sense it's no different to Trials that Clans have as both were meant to limit warfare for practical reasons. Different practical reasons yes but still. Except Trial system that Clans have was made so that lower casts don't suffer from it while with Ares Convention civilians still suffer from warfare even if it's limited.
-
If you want to debate then you might want to provide a source that refutes "It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns", without it people can just disregard whatever you say.
That's a tall order. Let's see what i can do. The lore is extensive, but you are correct.
And promptly ignored by the Houses when the Ares Conventions became inconvenient.
Yes. I'm not saying they don't. But at least it gives you the possibility of finding a conscientious officer who will disobey the order. The clans have no equivalent of that.
That page also states that their stories are mostly oral instead of written.
Much like the Illiad and the Odyssey were to the greeks. It doesn't mean you don't have a culture, you can. But the greeks at the time didn't have a system practical of writing. The Mycenaeans, who were the subjects of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, had developed a system of writing that today's scholars call “Linear B”. Let's just say it didn't lend itself to elaborate narratives.
That is stretching the meaning of Orwellian to near uselessness.
I got that from Wikipedia. Should have known better and used Merrian.
Except that it walks like a bear, looks like a cat, and swims like a shark and sounds like a zoo. In other words, there are vast differences between the Clans, so we can't treat it as a single entity except in the most broadest sense.
You can have variations of Vanilla, but you still get vanilla in the end.
Not without the infrastructure to service and deploy it, lowering the weight was the most practical solution.
You can produce thousands of mech through the centuries, and repair them too, but you can't manage to make one prototype?
I would concede that if they made one and didn't make it anymore because it was too costly. But they even didn't try. That's different and what I'm talking about.
-
Hey Codigo,
I don't think anyone would argue against the proposition: "The clans are a civilization organized around violence."
That's not the point. The point is why you find the clans hateful. I found many reasons, their casual use of genocide and brainwashing amongs the foremost.
Here's the difference between totalitarianism and the clans: In a totalitarian society, the government reserves a monopoly on violence, and that is the essence of why it must become evil. Eventually, someone directs the totalitarian nature of the government/civilization towards an ends that is destructive, and they use the (legal) legitimacy of state violence to impose their program against opposition. Fear is the main tool of domestic policy.
Nope: All modern systems of governance reserve violence, Clans included. What makes a state totalitarian is the fact that it seeks to subordinate all aspects of individual life to the authority of the state. Clans control its citizens before birth and after death. There's no individual freedom at all.
I think this distinction is why people are more willing to defend the clans. It's a dumb organizing principle for society at large, but if you have no moral values you think are uniquely sacred, it makes as much sense as economic, political, or religious states. I mean, I've had bosses that I would like to challenge to a Trial of Position. It has a kind of appeal to it.
Dare I say it? Well, lets. My gripe is not in a trial by combat. You want that in your society? Fine. it isn't fair, but fine.
My gripe is the total subordination imposed on the society by a minority.
-
Haters gonna hate,
Clanners gonna clan.
I hope people aren't too worked up. All Codigo is really doing is pointing out reasons why the Clans make good villains. Even if all of what he is saying can be thrown down at the feet of the House lords and ladies, too.
Select minorities rule BattleTech, from the First Prince and his lords, to the Cappies being ruled by insane Liaos, from a God-like Coordinator, to a Pirate captain with dreams of being a despot.
-
Nah, being a FWL fan is a lot closer than the Clans are to the Cubs. The FWL has had practically nothing except "down time" since the beginning of the franchise, while he Clans have remained a relevant and constantly covered part of the setting since their arrival.
Agreed. To the point i regularly choose characters from this background. Being in limited stasis allows me to craft their story to my liking.
-
Haters gonna hate,
Clanners gonna clan.
I hope people aren't too worked up. All Codigo is really doing is pointing out reasons why the Clans make good villains. Even if all of what he is saying can be thrown down at the feet of the House lords and ladies, too.
Select minorities rule BattleTech, from the First Prince and his lords, to the Cappies being ruled by insane Liaos, from a God-like Coordinator, to a Pirate captain with dreams of being a despot.
[StopHate]
One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.
Clans can be classified as villains depending on the timeline. 3049? they all are clear cut villains. In 3145? Diversification makes it more difficult to say. The bears? not at all. Scorpions? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Jade Falcons? Clearly. Wolf? Most likely, but they are trying to misdirect. Spirit cats and Diamond Sharks? Not at all.
[/StopHate]
Of course. Good villains make a story interesting. But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know. And pretending that Alaric is anything but a villain is.... disingenuous.
-
[StopHate]
One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.
Clans can be classified as villains depending on the timeline. 3049? they all are clear cut villains. In 3145? Diversification makes it more difficult to say. The bears? not at all. Scorpions? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Jade Falcons? Clearly. Wolf? Most likely, but they are trying to misdirect. Spirit cats and Diamond Sharks? Not at all.
[/StopHate]
Of course. Good villains make a story interesting. But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know. And pretending that Alaric is anything but a villain is.... disingenuous.
I would say you have been largely successful in your endeavor. But I am one voice alone. Others may judge differently and if you continue to pay attention to this thread, you will read all about those who doubt your point.
But success is limited. That's what I meant by "Haters gonna hate, Clanners gonna clan." Ignoring the in-built bias, it just means you will never convince a Clan fan that their faction of choice is worse somehow than certain Kuritas, Liaos, or Davions. Or Camerons. Or Blakists.
That said, I know you aren't trying to push anyone off of their fandom. You aren't even making them question it. But you have stirred up the critical thinkers, and that's a joy to see. The last two or three pages have a lot of life. And if you read back to the beginning, you'll see there are lots who believe as you do.
-
But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know.
I disagree with you. Victor was no means good protagonist. At least he wasn't well written one. He was too much of gary stu and Deus Ex Machina for my taste to be interesting protagonist. To me that is big strike among others against VSD and why I dislike him as character. Julian seems like better character of two but I am not sure if I ccan think him as protagonist. Then again I am not Davion fan so I won't see any Davion house lord as protagonist just because they are Davion.
-
One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.
No wait! I LOVE hating the clans!
Pick a lane.
-
No, that's not a textbook definition of genocide. Oh, wait! It is!!!!
No, it’s not. Genocide is defined as killing a large number of people belonging to a nation or ethnic group because of their nationality or ethnicity.
No one is killed when a bloodline is reaved. That bloodline is just removed from the trueborn eugenics program.
And a bloodline is not a nation or ethnicity.
So, trials of genocide are a tool of conformity control in the clans. Whether a Clan (Wolverines, Steel Vipers) is to be wiped or a gene sequence (reaving)
You’re confusing Trials of Annihilation (sanctioned genocide) with Trials of Reaving (eugenics program management). They’re not the same thing.
And thanks for bringing the Wolverines up. Remember how, after they were annihilated, all sibkos that contained Wolverine genes were... reaved? Children... take their own lives.
Again, that’s Annihilation, not Reaving.
And don't come and tell me that a child taking his own life for perceived genetic taints is not the consequence of brainwashing.
If you’re referring to the passage about a Ghost Bear sibko with Wolverine bloodlines, we don’t have to resort to brainwashing.
Again, Clan society is about the community, not the individual. Your value and worth are based on what you can contribute to the community, not on a set of individual rights and liberties.
In that context, Wolverine bloodlines posed a major threat to any Clan that harbored them after the Wolverine Annihilation. Not only could those children no longer contribute to their beloved Ghost Bear Clan, they posed an existential threat to its continued existence. That’s why those sibkin killed themselves — not because of brainwashing but for the greater good. It’s little different from Spock’s suicidal speech about the “needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few” at the end of Wrath of Khan.
It may be alien to our modern liberties, bills of rights, sense of justice, etc., but this kind of society where the group is more important than the individual actually dominates most of human history. I’m not saying that this alternate set of values is right in any absolute sense. But it’s definitely not brainwashing, either.
This is also why the Bears were so keen on joining Stone’s coalition and fighting Blakists. The Bears did not in fact remove all trueborns with Wolverine bloodlines from their eugenics program, and needed to eliminate any Blakist Wolverines/Blood before the other Clans found out. So although the incident with that Bear sibko is shocking, the Bears did not actually act uniformly to protect their Clan.
Of course they did!. But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.
No. The Ares Conventions predate the Spheroid atrocities that I cited. Ares Conventions were Age of War, Amaris’s atrocities were end of the Star League, and Kentares was Succession Wars. The first did nothing to stop the other two.
the point was to demonstrate that genocide is not exceptional behavior in the clans, but a normal tool of social control of the clans.
No doubt, genocide is wrong.
But this is a fictional universe at war, created to support a war game. And certain Clans hardly have a monopoly on genocidal acts in this universe. For every Wolverine or Spirit annihilation, there’s a dozen worlds depopulated by nukes, poisoning, and abandonment in the First Succession War alone.
There’s no black-and-white here. All the major factions have committed major atrocities and genocidal acts. (The guys wearing white have even committed some of the most recent and worst ones!) Arguments that any one faction is worse in this regard are silly. They’re all warlords.
If this is really an issue for you, then your problem isn’t with any particular faction. It’s with the game. Nothing wrong with that, but you should probably find a different game universe that’s not about large-scale warfare.
But checks and balances make excess more difficult to accomplish.
Looking at today’s world and recent/modern history, I think the jury is still out on that. Personalities ultimately matter. But Rule #4 forbids any substantive discussion so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Khans are the ultimate authority for their clan. If a Khan doesn't want any more trade with another clan, no merchant council is going to overrule him. An even though an economic war is too sly for a regular clan, the more devious could easily decide to do this to weaken a military post before attacking.
This is not unique to the Clans. It’s just the normal course of events in the lead-up to any war. This is another complaint about the nature of war, not about a faction. If you don’t like large-scale warfare, then this is the wrong universe for you.
And they live from "trial" to "trial". Absorbing, annihilating, grieving (?, that's the word? English is not my native tongue). Their economy is driven by conflict. As you say, this is a wargame. They either are in a constant state of war to make things interesting, or they aren't.
It doesn’t matter. The point is that Khans are not predisposed to meddling in the minutiae of their lower castes. They delegate those decisions to the lower-caste councils. Clans couldn’t run otherwise, whether they’re just conductung a few cattle raids or undertaking a major war (and especially when the Khan is distracted by a major war).
Of course, because clanners are not enamored of particular bloodnames, and want to incorporate in their clans. How many trials have been conducted for the Kerensky bloodname?
I don’t think it has ever been stated or indicated, so we don’t know whether the Wolves are always fending off trials for Kerensky bloodlines or whether other Clans don’t declare such trials out of deference to the Founders. Probably somewhere in between.
Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown
Yep, I missed or forgot that passage.
I question it, though. I get that the Clans would control access to certain works like the books Aidan had. But the existence of up to 20 versions of The Remembrance, stories like The Legend of Turkina, and Ghost Bear Great Works would seem to indicate that the Clans do have their own literature. It’s also weird that the Clans create every other kind media except the printed word. (There are no novelizations or script mass printings?) Lastly, and most importantly, there are other canon references to Clan literature like this one:
“Clan literature is filled with stories of malcontents who fled to the bandit caste...” (Clan Wolf SB, p. 16)
Based on all that, I think Clan: WoK, p. 49 is in error. If/when the topic is revisited in a future product, it should be made clear that the Clans have and produce literature, but access to certain works is restricted.
And while it is not mandatory for a civilization to have literature, it sure is telling of their level of culture.
It’s really not. Again, with no paper or books, the Norse (Vikings) and their predecessors still had an oral tradition that created some of history’s most elaborate poetry, Western tradition’s second most important mythology, and the oldest surviving story written in English.
The fact that each of the clans has different traditions doesn't mean that each clan doesn't conduct its own version of indoctrination.
All societies “indoctrinate”. Just because you disagree with the values or norms of a society does not mean that its members have been indoctrinated into their society any more than you have been indoctrinated into yours.
Or that they don't spy on their citizens in their own way.
Most (maybe all) major BT factions spy on their citizens. The Clans have their Watch, the Snakes their ISF/O5P, the FedRats their MIIO, the Elsies their LIC, etc. They all watch and report on their own citizens.
You’re not complaining about the Clans. You’re complaining about the BT universe. If you’re uncomfortable with it, you should find another.
What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.
An Orwellian state is one that controls all aspects of its citizen’s lives. Like most BT factions, the Clans have Orwellian aspects. But the diversity of Clan life shows that the Clans are not, in fact, Orwellian. Not every aspect of Clan life is controlled by its Khan or Clan Council. Quite the opposite.
The crazy guys did it before the clans. The ones 200 years behind...
No, they did not. The Matar did not work. A non-working invention is not an invention. It’s a failed experiment.
A superheavy with the movement profile of the Atlas is not something to be taken lightly
Even if it had worked, a Matar only moves 2/3. An Atlas moves 3/5.
A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer.
With mixed-tech and unlimited BV/C-bills, an intelligently designed 3/5, 130-ton superheavy can beat any possible 100-tonner. No canon superheavies are in that league.
Don't diss it until you try it.
I have. From both sides. Multiple times. The canon superheavies are just not efficiently designed and they suffer against many canon assaults.
-
No, it’s not. Genocide is defined as killing a large number of people belonging to a nation or ethnic group because of their nationality or ethnicity.
No one is killed when a bloodline is reaved. That bloodline is just removed from the trueborn eugenics program.
And a bloodline is not a nation or ethnicity.
"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
-
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Reavings only remove the possibility of further _trueborn_ births in the eugenics program. Freeborn births involving relatives of that bloodline are still going to happen.
And again, a bloodline doesn’t qualify as a “national, ethnical, racial, or religious group” in the first place.
Don’t get me wrong. It’s a slippery slope. Eugenics and genocide have gone hand-in-hand historically. But this narrow eugenics tool of the Clans — reavings — is not the same thing as genocide.
-
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as
In legal terms you have two states: 1) De jure (Lawful) and 2) De facto (In fact/reality). Under Clan jurisdiction (where Clan laws are in effect and enforced) external Conventions and laws mean nothing. If genocide, murder, slavery, etc., are legal, then no crimes have been committed and the entire point moot.
Legalisms aside, the "Might makes Right" law of the jungle only lasts for so long. Sparta collapsed because they refused to change their inflexible society and military standards. Sparta could field a terrifying army only due to the huge number of Helots (slaves) that did all the work and literally made up over 90% of the population. After decades of campaigns, Sparta was forced to field Helot units and promise them their freedom, eventually Sparta needed to hire Helot mercenaries. Writers of the time commented that the Spartans feared no foreign army more than they feared their population of Helots, who would occasionally rebel and inflict serious damage to the stability of the state.
Claiming the Clans aren't as murderous as the IS factions isn't much of an argument. If I don't like the Clans, it isn't because I love the IS factions, as they are all the same thing, with minor window dressing so you could tell them apart. I don't like them, either.
Given a clean slate to make a better society, the Clans opted to see how far they could get by adopting the worse practices of the IS, as if "Imagine how great our lives would be if there was somebody to force us, under pain of death, to get stuff done," was a new or even acceptable plan. No sale.
BTW, killing by government is also called democide, and not limited to ethnic groups or even specific groups of people, it includes all humans, regardless of justification. Some people may find the practice appalling but de facto applies until you have the ability to stop it.
-
I disagree with you. Victor was no means good protagonist. At least he wasn't well written one. He was too much of gary stu and Deus Ex Machina for my taste to be interesting protagonist.
Really? It seems to me that he was often the luckiest Prince who faced the Clans. There wasn't a time he faced Jade Falcon in battle of possession where his butt was not handed to him, and only getting out due to the efforts of his immediate friends. Most of the "Gary Stu" was mostly in his own head. The only success he personally had against the Clans was when he rescued Hohiro Kurita and in the Great Refusal, so pretty much Smoke Jaguar. Even at Coventry, he was lucky when a recon company managed a win to give Martha Pryde the option to pull out with honor to face Vlad Ward's invasion. His sister out-maneuvered him, politically, which lead to the break up of his realm.
So, I don't see him much of a Gary Stu, just lucky to have good friends.
-
Locked pending review