Author Topic: Does anyone else dislike the clans?  (Read 65535 times)

Elmoth

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #30 on: 15 December 2018, 18:15:05 »
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.

Jellico

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #31 on: 15 December 2018, 18:44:48 »
This. I find it incredibly irritating that somehow they manage to still produce these things so well, *without* drawbacks in any way.

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Clantech is essentially buffed 3025 tech. As a tech base it largely missed out on the revolution caused by supporting tech like C3 or Semi Guided LRMs. Compared to even 3060 tech Clantech is a club in a world of rapiers.

Kitsune413

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #32 on: 15 December 2018, 18:54:26 »
I hate the clans. They're the worst.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #33 on: 15 December 2018, 18:54:34 »
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.

Yeah, I can see that. I see that mostly as a fault in the Ultra AC & special ammo rules rather than DHS themselves, though.

The_Caveman

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #34 on: 15 December 2018, 19:53:51 »
Clan tech was a catch-22.

If they had introduced the Clans with gear no better than what the IS had, they would make no sense because they'd have to stagnate while the IS had been going backward for 300 years.

Introduce the Clans with a 300-year tech advantage, battles would be as one-sided as the Boxer Rebellion.

As it is, giving the Clans tech equal to 100 years over the height of the Star League was probably the least insane compromise, but it required handing Clan scientists the idiot ball for 200 years (a situation that had to be "patched" decades later by trotting out the Society).

I enjoy the hell out of the Clans as a roleplaying setting. Their weird tribal culture, the honor system, the strange vocabulary, all of it. They're so fundamentally alien, yet as human as can be. Anyone who manages to boil all that down to a reductive "might makes right" doesn't grasp how honor works--or only has experience dealing with Clan Wolf.
And then you consider the intersection of those values with invading the Inner Sphere, which has completely different cultural values....it's beautiful. It's like the Aztecs invading Europe, only they're the ones with the guns.

Personally, I think the Helm core and subsequent Inner Sphere tech renaissance was a mistake. The scrappy, postapocalyptic Mad Max feel of the LosTech era is what makes the setting interesting. Without it, it's just another generic high-tech space opera universe which inexplicably ties its own hands (vanishing WarShips) to facilitate largely pointless ground battles. I rapidly lose interest in the timeline as it progresses past 3060.

Rather than building the Inner Sphere up to match the Clans, the writers should have gradually dragged the Clans down to the IS level through attrition and made them play in the mud.

Dark Age could have been great if it hadn't been so mismanaged. It was supposed to be a return to the Mad Max days but what we got was Beyond Thunderdome. With 'Mechs walking around in fetishwear and combine harvesters being used as battlefield weapons it degraded into self-parody. It didn't help that it all happened during the demise of FASA and on the heels of a Jihad storyline that made no sense whatsoever.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

The_Caveman

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #35 on: 15 December 2018, 20:08:10 »
Yeah, I can see that. I see that mostly as a fault in the Ultra AC & special ammo rules rather than DHS themselves, though.
DHS leaves all non-energy weaponry as subpar. That is a loss from.my POV.

IMO the real problem is the heat scale. The mechanics of the heat scale don't match the way overheating is portrayed in the fiction. In the fiction, running your 'Mech to the redline and riding the heat curve is how you win. On the table, playing like that just makes you miss all your shots and shut down or explode.
As it has stood since BattleDroids, the heat scale aggressively punishes any kind of risk-taking and encourages players to run their 'Mechs very conservatively by hobbling their firepower--which just stretches out a game that already takes forever to resolve because the odds of successfully dealing damage are so poor. As designed, the heat scale also makes DHS massively overpowered because they flat-out double the amount of weaponry you can fire, usually with a minimal or nonexistent construction cost penalty. And DHS working this way in turn makes energy weapons overpowered, by removing their only real drawback.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Maingunnery

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #36 on: 15 December 2018, 20:18:19 »

I think that if the universe only had SHS, then the Clan Mechs would be relative less powerful.
Sure their tech is great and in-universe a logical development, but their energy weapons are also very hot...


And there is another matter.... Clan designs generally look better then InnerSphere designs, and looks also generate fans.
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Atarlost

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #37 on: 15 December 2018, 20:43:26 »
Clan tech was a catch-22.

If they had introduced the Clans with gear no better than what the IS had, they would make no sense because they'd have to stagnate while the IS had been going backward for 300 years.

They should have stagnated if not declined worse than the IS given their societal structure. 

Why should a society that values meatheads over scientists make more scientific progress than a larger society that worships technology and recruits the brightest minds from a vastly larger population and was unaffected by the succession wars or Holy Shroud?  I speak, of course, of Earth. 

Maingunnery

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #38 on: 15 December 2018, 20:49:30 »
They should have stagnated if not declined worse than the IS given their societal structure. 

Why should a society that values meatheads over scientists make more scientific progress than a larger society that worships technology and recruits the brightest minds from a vastly larger population and was unaffected by the succession wars or Holy Shroud?  I speak, of course, of Earth.
The Clans did stagnate, almost all of their advancements were made very early and were based upon SLDF research data and scientists (that the Earth didn't have anymore).
As for Earth, they weren't really motivated, nor did they have the resources of the old SL.
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The_Caveman

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #39 on: 15 December 2018, 21:26:34 »
a society that values meatheads over scientists

This is a very bad misreading of how Clan society works and also a common misconception.

A trueborn warrior has to be a Nietzschean übermensch in every sense. The castes are hierarchical, yes, but that in turn means a warrior has to be strong enough to be a laborer, smart enough to be a scientist, cunning enough to be a merchant, skilled enough to be a technician, and deadly enough to be a warrior. Anyone who fails this at any level washes out into a lower caste. "Meatheads" don't make it into the warrior caste, they wash out and become laborers. Dumb but tough isn't enough to cut it.

The freeborn populations have breeding programs too (conducted the old-fashioned way through arranged marriages), and a similar level of rigor in job selection, they just don't get the resources that are dumped into the warrior gene selection and breeding program (except for what the Society was tinkering with).

Now this does create a problem of a "brain drain" of the best and brightest from warrior sibkos passing over the scientist caste because they qualified for a better job, but I'd argue it's no worse than the brain drain effect Wall Street and law schools impose on science in our society.

Where the Clans run into a problem is their systemic gerontophobia. It's a society that is by-and-large run by people under 30, with a handful of "old-timers" kept around because of exceptional ability. Anyone who has seen a college dorm knows this is a disastrously bad way to run a society, but it also makes the Clans a lot of fun. It's like a vapid reality show, but with lots of guns.

There are areas where Clan science should obviously have stagnated through lack of resources, but weapons development is not one of them.

ComStar, on the other hand is a fantastic example of shooting oneself in the foot. They literally worship technology, at least in the post-Toyamist era through to the WoB schism. Everything the Star League came up with is holy to them. Technical manuals are actually read with reverence like they were scripture. ComStar's entire thing was believing that the people of the Star League were somehow enlightened and they were carrying out a sacred duty of keeping the flame alive until the Second Coming Star League returned.

You don't go rewriting your holy books because you think they could be improved, that's called heresy and people fight (very silly, but no less brutal) wars over it. ROM had a whole division dedicated to enforcing correct thought among the faithful.

Developing new technology would mean acknowledging the old technology had room for improvement, which means it isn't perfect, which means it isn't holy, which means--Oh, crap.

This is one of my biggest gripes about the WoB jihad, all that über-tech the Master pulled out of his ass should have been considered heresy and punished as such. It doesn't comport with what was established about old ComStar or the WoB in the several decades of prior lore.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

IronSphinx

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #40 on: 15 December 2018, 23:42:30 »
Maybe I need to give them more time. Would love for someone to convince me that the clans are awesome. Thanks for listening. I await all the responses.

I'm definitely in the "I loathe the Clans with a passion" camp, mainly because I find them boring in the extreme as characters. But, since "it's your game", I'd say make your own campaign however you like it. We had a guy out here in the Detroit who for years ran his own campaign where the Clans never existed and he and his players enjoyed it. You've essentially got tons of resource material that runs from the late 2000's to 3050 and you can pick up the game universe at any point, diverge from the main "canon" universe, and advance the timeline of your personal game universe however you choose. And if you find Clan tech that you like, introduce it into your campaign setting as Inner Sphere technological advances. Maybe a MegaCorp figured out how to make "Clan" ER PPCs as the logical progression of the Star League ER PPC found described in the Helm Memory Core. And if you look at the books, if you want the added granularity, there are rules for prototype ER PPCs (for example). The BattleTech Universe, is really your oyster if you want it to be.

And as you catch up on the source material, don't stop at the Clans. If you don't like the Feddies and want to run a game where they were devoured by the Capellans, Taurians, and Dracs during the Succession Wars? Do it! Hate the Star League and want to see them lose the Reunification Wars to the Periphery? Run a campaign in a universe where that happened. There are no BattleTech gestapo that are going to force you to run a home campaign exactly to the specs of what takes place in BattleTech canon.  ;)

However, before you launch into your own campaign, may I suggest the following:

On the Catalyst Game Labs website, they have a free PDF called "Empires Aflame". It's basically a 55 page adventure in a parallel universe where the Star League Defense Force never left the Inner Sphere -- hence, the Clans and ComStar were never founded.

https://store.catalystgamelabs.com/products/battletech-adventures-empires-aflame-pdf

The adventure is interesting enough, however, where the book really shines is on pages 21 thru 48 where the GM Section details out this really cool look into a "what if" universe that could provide you with lots of hooks for campaigning using the full set of BattleTech products (Total War, Alpha Strike, Strategic Ops, Campaign Ops, etc.).

Again, it's totally FREE!! So if, like me, you think that the Clans are not worth playing, download this free resource and go to town. It's YOUR game, play it however you like and have fun.  :thumbsup:

Oh, and welcome back!  :)
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rebs

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #41 on: 15 December 2018, 23:59:46 »
Did anyone mention the Ultra Auto Cannon 20 yet?  Most dakka dakka for your c-bill or kerensky. 

Ultra autocannons in general are one of the great weapon advances the Clans utilize.  But the U A/C 20 was and is over the top.

More bang than you can shake a Stick 2C at...   Until the Spheroids invented the rotary auto cannon, that is.  So I don't see the arguments against the clans as being spot-on.  There's some spheroid tech that readily surpases clan tech. 

It's all in what you as a gamer like.  Personally I love the lore, so there's where my take comes from.  I more or less liked the clans before TRO 3050 was published, because I was one of the few who pondered all the hints and clues about Kerensky's Exodus in the original Periphery book. 
« Last Edit: 16 December 2018, 00:06:35 by rebs »
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Jellico

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #42 on: 16 December 2018, 01:18:48 »
Personally, I think the Helm core and subsequent Inner Sphere tech renaissance was a mistake. The scrappy, postapocalyptic Mad Max feel of the LosTech era is what makes the setting interesting. Without it, it's just another generic high-tech space opera universe which inexplicably ties its own hands (vanishing WarShips) to facilitate largely pointless ground battles. I rapidly lose interest in the timeline as it progresses past 3060.

Without advancing tech Battletech would have been a trivia question.

This isn't a miniature company like 40K. It sells fluff. And the fluff that sells is TROs. Advancing tech adds the variety that makes new TRO sales possible.

That ignores that 3025 play is boring. Some meaningless fire at long range. Close and kick wildly at each other. Then you ammo explodes.

The_Caveman

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #43 on: 16 December 2018, 01:45:32 »
Without advancing tech Battletech would have been a trivia question.

This isn't a miniature company like 40K. It sells fluff. And the fluff that sells is TROs. Advancing tech adds the variety that makes new TRO sales possible.

That ignores that 3025 play is boring. Some meaningless fire at long range. Close and kick wildly at each other. Then you ammo explodes.

I didn't say "no new tech" I said "no tech renaissance". Allowing the IS to rebuild its society and have high tech everywhere was the mistake.

The high tech stuff doesn't make the game any more fun, it just makes everything die a lot quicker. Or it would, if you weren't constantly pausing play to look up the rules for the new equipment.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

shinr

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #44 on: 16 December 2018, 03:45:23 »
I enjoy the hell out of the Clans as a roleplaying setting. Their weird tribal culture, the honor system, the strange vocabulary, all of it. They're so fundamentally alien, yet as human as can be. Anyone who manages to boil all that down to a reductive "might makes right" doesn't grasp how honor works--or only has experience dealing with Clan Wolf.

Clan fan via MW2 here.

I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #45 on: 16 December 2018, 04:51:31 »
I care very little about the rules, but I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thinks the Clans have overstayed their welcome in terms of plot. I might have much preferred the Clans to be, well, like the Word of Blake: villain of the week turn up, they have overpowered tech, there are lots of desperate battles, eventually the Inner Sphere gets its act together and defeats them, and that's the end of it.

I don't mind people playing or enjoying the Clans, just as I don't mind people playing or enjoying Blakists, but I do feel like making the Clans a permanent fixture of the setting was a mistake. Ultimately I'm here for the neofeudal space drama with occasional giant stompy robots for flavour - I neither want nor need the Space Mongols shoehorned into everything.

(To be clear, Space Mongols is not in itself a bad thing. Not when they're fighting Space Samurai, Space Germans, Space Knights, and Space Communists. But the Clans do have a very different cultural flavour to the feudal stylings of the great houses, and frankly it's a flavour I'd rather keep separate.)

Orwell84

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #46 on: 16 December 2018, 05:31:32 »
Clan fan via MW2 here.

I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".

Ditto. For me, without the Clans Battletech would lose a lot of its uniqueness as a setting and instead become something like just another Dune-knockoff that happens to have giant robots.

The adolescent-me playing Mechwarrior 2 and then reading novels found the Clans a fascinating and in some ways laudable culture. Twenty years later that viewpoint's only been tempered, not lost. It's a bit of a mystery to me as well why the Clans are considered 'alien' and 'evil' but not the Combine or Capellans who also have caste-based societies and totalitarian regimes. The Clan system - of single combat and limited warfare deliberately designed to minimize loss of civilian life - certainly might appeal to Succession War-era Spheroids who might get nuked or blown up simply because they happened to live near some useful target or other.

As to game balance and rules, true, the Clans can come across as overpowered. Tactics-wise, consider it a real challenge, kind of like playing on 'Hard' difficulty. Roleplay-wise, now you know how your poor Spheroid soldiers feel  ;D
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Iracundus

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #47 on: 16 December 2018, 07:37:49 »
Ditto. For me, without the Clans Battletech would lose a lot of its uniqueness as a setting and instead become something like just another Dune-knockoff that happens to have giant robots.

The adolescent-me playing Mechwarrior 2 and then reading novels found the Clans a fascinating and in some ways laudable culture. Twenty years later that viewpoint's only been tempered, not lost. It's a bit of a mystery to me as well why the Clans are considered 'alien' and 'evil' but not the Combine or Capellans who also have caste-based societies and totalitarian regimes. The Clan system - of single combat and limited warfare deliberately designed to minimize loss of civilian life - certainly might appeal to Succession War-era Spheroids who might get nuked or blown up simply because they happened to live near some useful target or other.

For me, based on the background of their society, I dislike the Clans on purely RP reasons and find them to be an abomination.  Why?  Because all of the Inner Sphere societies, even if totalitarian or caste based, at least pays lip service to the idea that there is more to human life than purely war, and that even in a militarized feudal society, there is still a civilian government that nominally still holds authority.  Sun-tzu Liao demonstrated for example by not being particularly good in Mech but a competent ruler.  By contrast, the Clans elevate war to be the purpose of human existence, as the ends rather than the means, to the point where their laws are effectively might makes right.  Society becomes subordinate to the military.

I also find the Clans worship of youth and denigration of age to be distasteful.  Someone who has lived a full life should be respected, not treated as past their expiry date and better off dead asap. 
« Last Edit: 16 December 2018, 08:13:14 by Iracundus »

Iron Grenadier

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #48 on: 16 December 2018, 08:18:18 »
Never really liked the Clans myself. Just didn't seem to fit in, and as mentioned earlier it seemed like it was two different Battletech universes smashed together. I suppose if you just play a strictly Clan game, staying in the Clan worlds there might be something to that. Never tried it though.

I think the best description I've seen of the Clans smashing with the Inner Sphere was a fan fiction, called Seven, done by a Valles -

“So, let me get this straight. You claim to follow the ideals of the Star League by subjugating every civil authority under a completely alien warrior caste that exists in a perpetual state of rivalry and ritual bloodletting and whose highest ‘honor’ is a tournament of death duels for the privilege of knowing that a clone batch will use your genes to become still more accomplished at bringing pain? At murdering people who have their own friends, loves, and dreams?”

“And when you decide to rampage through the Inner Sphere like a pack of pre-space Mongols, you have the unmitigated gall to not only call us barbarians, but to expect me to sign on with your little murder-party, abandoning my family and my loyalties, because I lost one fight?



Probably the biggest reason I don't like the Clans though is Kerensky and the fact that he bailed out. And why I liked the "Empires Aflame" AU

DarkSpade

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #49 on: 16 December 2018, 08:30:35 »
Plot wise I'm fine with clans.  Their tech on the other hand is ridiculous.  I get how it happened.  Almost every time you see a war game add a whole new faction they're over powered.  The developers just get too excited creating new toys.  Thing is that pretty much every war game out there eventually releases a new edition which fixes balance issues. 

CBT has tried instead to balance things out by giving the IS new toys.  This has worked to some degree(I do love me some MMLs!), but not entirely.   This approach would have worked better if the clans had some special toys that made them more powerful, but that's not the case.  The clans core game weapons are all better, PPC, lasers, LRMS, SRMs, etc, and that's on top of better engines and heat sinks.   I don't care how finely crafted your bronze sword and padded armor is, my steel hammer and plate armor is going to come out on top.

My take on how clan tech should have been handled.

- Longer ranges but also longer min ranges.  Clanners abhor melee combat in mechs.  Why would they waste time developing tech that lets them get in closer?  Obviously, this wouldn't apply to lasers, but it could totally apply to SRMs.

- More powerful -OR- long range lasers, not both.  In either case, the heat should be increased accordingly.  Actually, a gimmick that let them sacrifice power for more range would have been kinda cool too.

- Unique equipment.  Nothing pops into my head right now for this one, unique stuff is always better than more powerful when introducing a new faction.
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shinr

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #50 on: 16 December 2018, 09:00:06 »
I care very little about the rules, but I'm afraid I'm in the camp that thinks the Clans have overstayed their welcome in terms of plot. I might have much preferred the Clans to be, well, like the Word of Blake: villain of the week turn up, they have overpowered tech, there are lots of desperate battles, eventually the Inner Sphere gets its act together and defeats them, and that's the end of it.

I don't mind people playing or enjoying the Clans, just as I don't mind people playing or enjoying Blakists, but I do feel like making the Clans a permanent fixture of the setting was a mistake. Ultimately I'm here for the neofeudal space drama with occasional giant stompy robots for flavour - I neither want nor need the Space Mongols shoehorned into everything.

(To be clear, Space Mongols is not in itself a bad thing. Not when they're fighting Space Samurai, Space Germans, Space Knights, and Space Communists. But the Clans do have a very different cultural flavour to the feudal stylings of the great houses, and frankly it's a flavour I'd rather keep separate.)

But the Mongols/Huns/Migrating Nomads of very different cultural flavour crashing into an established feudal society IS part of feudal flavour, helped giving birth to it via the "Barbarians" taking over the Roman Empire even.

Also, unlike in the West here in Eastern Europe the history with the Mongols is a lot less transient, with the Empire and it's regional successor the Golden Horde ruling the area with a lot of influence on neighbors for nearly two centuries before their own infighting and the invading Timurids spelled their doom, which is why I don't see the Clans surviving this long as anything unusual.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #51 on: 16 December 2018, 09:22:31 »
Clan fan via MW2 here.

I really don't get why people consider the pseudo-Steppe Tribals IN SPACE to be "Alien".

Yeah, it really isn't any more ridiculous than some of the things in IS lore. Like the book where the GDL's Davion landhold gets attacked and everyone important insists that the troops won't follow anyone but Cadet Carlyle because he is Grayson's son.

The_Caveman

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #52 on: 16 December 2018, 09:29:52 »
For me, based on the background of their society, I dislike the Clans on purely RP reasons and find them to be an abomination.  Why?  Because all of the Inner Sphere societies, even if totalitarian or caste based, at least pays lip service to the idea that there is more to human life than purely war, and that even in a militarized feudal society, there is still a civilian government that nominally still holds authority.

Look at it another way: The Clans do what everybody else in BT does, but they don't lie to you about it.

This is a setting where there are no good factions, only a few (mostly) good characters. All the white hats are just black hats with good PR.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

SteelRaven

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #53 on: 16 December 2018, 09:32:38 »
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly accepts
 the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;) 
« Last Edit: 16 December 2018, 10:25:03 by SteelRaven »
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NeonKnight

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #54 on: 16 December 2018, 09:38:58 »
I like the IS Neo-Feudalism, and I like the Clan's Caste system (Class Based is just another way to decribe Feudalism, Upper Class Rules over Lower Class, Caste is Warrior Caste, Religious Caste, Merchant Caste, etc.).

It's the huge Tech Disparity that is way out of whack that bothers me.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #55 on: 16 December 2018, 09:54:17 »
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly excepts the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;)

Not everyone.

I realized it was ridiculous from the get-go -- well, sort of. My intro to the franchise was Mechwarrior 2 the computer game and the books Bloodname and I am Jade Falcon for story fiction, so I thought the Clans were the good guys. It was years before I realized the IS was the bigger, more important part of the setting but the moment I heard about barons and dukes in space, it raised an eyebrow. Then I got the background that the Great Houses had been around for hundreds of years and I simply willfully chose to ignore how ridiculous that is.

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #56 on: 16 December 2018, 10:27:11 »
Just thought it was funny everyone blindly accepts
 the IS neo-feudalism yet it's the Clans class based society that's the weird one ;)

The first absurdity one is taught can be presented as the truth

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #57 on: 16 December 2018, 10:37:40 »
I was half joking guys. Every faction is messed up in their own way which is why the IS is in constant war.

It's too early for me to take any of this seriously.
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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #58 on: 16 December 2018, 10:43:44 »
Fake space empires are S E R I O U S B U S I N E S S

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Re: Does anyone else dislike the clans?
« Reply #59 on: 16 December 2018, 11:00:27 »
It not the Clan society I dislike, though that is some of it. It is them being able to turn their honour on and off. You ether have it or you don't. Then there is the genocidal, sociopathic idiocy.

I played a scenario called Bloodright. Basically you were a clan player hunting down descendents from the Wolverine families that did not even go on the exodus. It was this that soured me on the Clans as a whole.

When the Clans first came out, I read the novels and loved the Wolves, and still like them as well as the Wolves in exile, Hell's Horses, Nova Cats, and Wolverines, I suppose they are not clan anymore.

As has been said all the factions in BT are shades of gray. Mostly I use them as OPFOR.

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