Does anyone else dislike the clans?

[Colt Ward]

What would have been interesting for me is if the big 5 players broke up to have way more factions in the universe. The clan invasion would have been s great moment to do that, instituting IS-eide chaos. The clans could be beaten and become part of those smaller hodge-podge factions. Right now this is not really the case. For me the best map was the one we got when the fwl imploded. I like d that and thought that it was a lost opportunity when a similar implosion did not happen in other factions and the fwl recovered instantly to be able to cope with the othe rbig guys.

Well . . . it was not instantly, it was 60+ years and the band is not all back together yet.  The last PTB decided to shrink the faction numbers down- they even were shrinking them beyond pre-Jihad levels.  We lost half dozen Clans, the Home Worlds dropped out of the narrative, Warden Wolves and Nova Cats were wiped out, all the little factions around the Republic/Fortress disappeared, Filtevelt is shrinking, and they probably putting the path of the Taurian re-unification in place.

[Kovax]

What would you think if the factions that got wiped out rose up against the clans in a later iteration of the fiction? Do you have any feeling that it's like being a Cubs fan or something, where excitement about your faction requires some "down times"?

Nah, being a FWL fan is a lot closer than the Clans are to the Cubs.  The FWL has had practically nothing except "down time" since the beginning of the franchise, while he Clans have remained a relevant and constantly covered part of the setting since their arrival.

[Daryk]

The FWL is easily the most likely to have internal fighting at the company and lance level throughout the timeline.

[rebs]

I AM saying everyone needs to hate the Clans...
The Clans have no documented proof that they love baked treats... savages...
Any society without at least ONE day a year devoted to the conspicuous consumption of baked sweets (or other culturally appropriate foods <--- literalist insurance!!) is a barbaric travesty of subhuman social degeneracy!!  :D
LONG LIVE THE FRITTERS!!


_{I've been on my diet too long....please send cookies...}

You mean the Clans don't have Paczki Day?  Bunch of Philistines!

[codigo]

The Clans have a process for discontinuing the use of certain bloodlines in the trueborn genepool.  It’s called a Trial of Reaving.  It’s normally done for some reasonable justification, like the bloodline is grossly underperforming.  It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns.  It’s not an example of genocide.

Ok. Underperforming how? Are they lacking scientifically? they don't repair the mechs prompt enough? No. They underperform as WARRIORS, the only caste that matters. So, a specific sector of the population, defined by its genetics, is killed by a perceived lack of usefulness.

A judgment Performed by a minority in control of the government.

And it doesn't matter if you are a warrior of not. If your bloodname is determined to be "tainted", you are going to die independently of what you did, or which caste you are a part of.

No, that's not a textbook definition of genocide. Oh, wait! It is!!!!

And before you tell me they have to go to trial first, remember: The ones defending themselves are the ones who ARE ALREADY found wanting. So, what do you think is going to happen?

That said, Clans have undertaken genocidal campaigns in the distant (Wolverines) and recent past (Blood Spirits).  And in fact, Trials of Reaving were abused in the most recent examples during the Wars of Reaving.  But these are inter-Clan wars, not examples of Khans abusing their power internally.

So, trials of genocide are a tool of conformity control in the clans. Whether a Clan (Wolverines, Steel Vipers) is to be wiped or a gene sequence (reaving) And the reason is merely political.

And thanks for bringing the Wolverines up. Remember how, after they were annihilated, all sibkos that contained Wolverine genes were... reaved? Children were told of what happened and encouraged to take their own lives. Which they did. Whole fields of youngsters dead at the feet of their elders, Dead by their own hands.

Way to commit two atrocities, Nick! Brainwash effectivity at 100% and genocide too! (And don't come and tell me that a child taking his own life for perceived genetic taints is not the consequence of brainwashing.

Most major factions in the BT universe have committed atrocities in their history.  For every annihilated Clan, there’s dozens of nuked Spheroid worlds and Kentares Massacres.  It’s the nature of war, and this is a wargame.

Of course they did!. But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.

It’s not.  The Wars of Reaving was an inter-Clan conflict.  Your example was of a Khan abusing his power within his Clan.

No, my example did not depend on the Khan. The council could do genocide too. And the point was to demonstrate that genocide is not exceptional behavior in the clans, but a normal tool of social control of the clans.

Bad leadership is bad leadership.  It’s not unique to the Clans or even to the BT universe.  For every Malvina Hazen, there’s a Stefan Amaris.  For every Stefan Amaris, there’s any number of real-world leaders who abused (or are abusing) their powers against their own people.  One only has to read history to understand that laws, checks and balances, divisions of power, etc. are no guarantee against determined, unscrupulous, and power-mad individuals, especially in times of crisis.  (I’m not going to identify any specific real-world examples to avoid a Rule #4 warning.)  Personalities matter in the end.

Of course. But checks and balances make excess more difficult to accomplish. Bad leaders have first to overcome that for them to do real evil. Ie: Malvina Hazen had to make a trial of possession for her clan, eschewing clan tradition, before embarking in her worst violations.

Something like 90% of sibkin never become warriors.  They move to lower castes.  So they’re already throwing off tons of scientists (or pick your favorite caste).  I don’t see the Scientist Caste in any Clan needing to ask for more scientists out of the sibkos.

Quite possible. I concede.

The Clans live in a constant state of raiding (just like the Successor States).  There’s a huge difference between, say, Operation Revival or the Wars of Reaving and some trinary-sized Trials of Possession.
Moreover, my point was that Khans are the ultimate decision makers on matters military, from raids to wars.  But that doesn’t mean that they’re suddenly going to take an interest in say, a lower-caste labor dispute, when there’s a big Trial of Absorption going on.  Just the opposite, actually.  (What field general has time for a labor dispute when they have a war to prosecute?)

Khans are the ultimate authority for their clan. If a Khan doesn't want any more trade with another clan, no merchant council is going to overrule him. An even though an economic war is too sly for a regular clan, the more devious could easily decide to do this to weaken a military post before attacking.

And they live from "trial" to "trial". Absorbing, annihilating, grieving (?, that's the word? English is not my native tongue). Their economy is driven by conflict. As you say, this is a wargame. They either are in a constant state of war to make things interesting, or they aren't.

I’d also note that some, maybe most, Clan raiding is driven by lower caste input.  A Khan doesn’t magically know that he needs bloodline A, design B, or resource C.  His lower caste leadership is going to inform him of these opportunities, needs, and shortfalls.

Of course, because clanners are not enamored of particular bloodnames, and want to incorporate in their clans. How many trials have been conducted for the Kerensky bloodname? How many more are going to be fought? The wolves keep it in their ranks thanks to resilience, skill, and grit. And no scientist is advising anyone to acquire it.

Objectively and obviously wrong.  See The Remembrance.

Heh. No, I'm not. Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown, save The Remembrance and the works mentioned in this thread. So, I'm clearly correct in a surreptitious way? Well, the contrary of what you said!

So imagine. A whole 31st-century civilization without literature. And while it is not mandatory for a civilization to have literature, it sure is telling of their level of culture.

An Orwellian society insists on conformance.  The fact that the Clans have such diversity — Bear artistic works, Coyote scientific research, Scorpion archeology/history, Falcon bankers, Shark/Fox traders, Raven politics, Mandrill divisiveness, Spirit inclusiveness — indicates that it is not an Orwellian society.

The fact that each of the clans has different traditions doesn't mean that each clan doesn't conduct its own version of indoctrination. Or that they don't spy on their citizens in their own way. What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.

There are Orwellian aspects of Clan society — most especially the whole Not-Named Clan thing — but it’s not Orwellian on the whole.

So, if the Spirits do Orwellian things, and so do the Wolves, the green canaries, the smoked Jaguars, etc, it doesn't mean the clans, as a whole, are Orwellian?. Well, if it walks like a duck, look like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, can i call it a duck?

It was the Blakists, not the Republic, that proved out superheavy tech.

Yes. The crazy guys did it before the clans. The ones 200 years behind them on the technology curve. Good point!

Moreover, I’d take a standard Stone Rhino over any of the mediocre to just plain awful published superheavies to date.

Your choice. A superheavy with the movement profile of the Atlas is not something to be taken lightly

All this proves is that the Blakists and Republic were stupid enough to expend lots of resources on underperforming technology and designs when they should have just been replicating a lighter Clantech assault.  Just like the Clans did.  200 (or however many) years ago.

Say WHAT? A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer. (Don't go over that limit, is not worth it). Don't diss it until you try it.

[Renard]

Hey Codigo,

I don't think anyone would argue against the proposition: "The clans are a civilization organized around violence."

Here's the difference between totalitarianism and the clans: In a totalitarian society, the government reserves a monopoly on violence, and that is the essence of why it must become evil. Eventually, someone directs the totalitarian nature of the government/civilization towards an ends that is destructive, and they use the (legal) legitimacy of state violence to impose their program against opposition. Fear is the main tool of domestic policy.

The clans are not quite that. Every society organizes itself around some notion of status and power: physical, economic, intellectual, religious, whatever.  The clans picked status based on physical ability to impose one's will. If you're Khan, you can direct the clan the way you want, unless you anger enough people that they send a champion to end your rule. You don't see people in totalitarian regimes "standing up" to their rulers.  You do see it in liberal democratic states, through elections, because the organizing principles of society are different. The Khan can't just execute you because you question their leadership, they will call you out as a coward and instigate a duel.

I think this distinction is why people are more willing to defend the clans. It's a dumb organizing principle for society at large, but if you have no moral values you think are uniquely sacred, it makes as much sense as economic, political, or religious states.  I mean, I've had bosses that I would like to challenge to a Trial of Position. It has a kind of appeal to it.

[Maingunnery]

And it doesn't matter if you are a warrior of not. If your bloodname is determined to be "tainted", you are going to die independently of what you did, or which caste you are a part of.

If you want to debate then you might want to provide a source that refutes "It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns", without it people can just disregard whatever you say.   

But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.

And promptly ignored by the Houses when the Ares Conventions became inconvenient.

Heh. No, I'm not. Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown, save The Remembrance and the works mentioned in this thread.

That page also states that their stories are mostly oral instead of written.

What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.

That is stretching the meaning of Orwellian to near uselessness.

So, if the Spirits do Orwellian things, and so do the Wolves, the green canaries, the smoked Jaguars, etc, it doesn't mean the clans, as a whole, are Orwellian?. Well, if it walks like a duck, look like a duck and swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, can i call that bird a duck?

Except that it walks like a bear, look like a cat and swims like a shark and sounds like a zoo. In other words there are vast differences between the Clans, so we can't treat it as a single entity except in the most broadest sense.

Say WHAT? A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer. (Don't go over that limit, is not worth it). Don't diss it until you try it.

Not without the infrastructure to service and deploy it, lowering the weight was the most practical solution.

[Mecha82]

Ares Convention only become thing for practical reasons. As in Great Houses were about to lose means to wage war so they chose too limit warfare instead of ending it. This was made very clear in fiction. In that sense it's no different to Trials that Clans have as both were meant to limit warfare for practical reasons. Different practical reasons yes but still. Except Trial system that Clans have was made so that lower casts don't suffer from it while with Ares Convention civilians still suffer from warfare even if it's limited. 

[codigo]

If you want to debate then you might want to provide a source that refutes "It never extends to living trueborn members of that bloodline or related freeborns", without it people can just disregard whatever you say.   

That's a tall order. Let's see what i can do. The lore is extensive, but you are correct.

And promptly ignored by the Houses when the Ares Conventions became inconvenient.

Yes. I'm not saying they don't. But at least it gives you the possibility of finding a conscientious officer who will disobey the order. The clans have no equivalent of that.

That page also states that their stories are mostly oral instead of written.

Much like the Illiad and the Odyssey were to the greeks. It doesn't mean you don't have a culture, you can. But the greeks at the time didn't have a system practical of writing. The Mycenaeans, who were the subjects of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, had developed a system of writing that today's scholars call “Linear B”. Let's just say it didn't lend itself to elaborate narratives.

That is stretching the meaning of Orwellian to near uselessness.

I got that from Wikipedia. Should have known better and used Merrian.

Except that it walks like a bear, looks like a cat, and swims like a shark and sounds like a zoo. In other words, there are vast differences between the Clans, so we can't treat it as a single entity except in the most broadest sense.

You can have variations of Vanilla, but you still get vanilla in the end.

Not without the infrastructure to service and deploy it, lowering the weight was the most practical solution.

You can produce thousands of mech through the centuries, and repair them too, but you can't manage to make one prototype?

I would concede that if they made one and didn't make it anymore because it was too costly. But they even didn't try. That's different and what I'm talking about.

[codigo]

Hey Codigo,

I don't think anyone would argue against the proposition: "The clans are a civilization organized around violence."

That's not the point. The point is why you find the clans hateful. I found many reasons, their casual use of genocide and brainwashing amongs the foremost.

Here's the difference between totalitarianism and the clans: In a totalitarian society, the government reserves a monopoly on violence, and that is the essence of why it must become evil. Eventually, someone directs the totalitarian nature of the government/civilization towards an ends that is destructive, and they use the (legal) legitimacy of state violence to impose their program against opposition. Fear is the main tool of domestic policy.

Nope: All modern systems of governance reserve violence, Clans included. What makes a state totalitarian is the fact that it seeks to subordinate all aspects of individual life to the authority of the state. Clans control its citizens before birth and after death. There's no individual freedom at all.

I think this distinction is why people are more willing to defend the clans. It's a dumb organizing principle for society at large, but if you have no moral values you think are uniquely sacred, it makes as much sense as economic, political, or religious states.  I mean, I've had bosses that I would like to challenge to a Trial of Position. It has a kind of appeal to it.

Dare I say it? Well, lets. My gripe is not in a trial by combat. You want that in your society? Fine. it isn't fair, but fine.
My gripe is the total subordination imposed on the society by a minority.

[rebs]

Haters gonna hate,
Clanners gonna clan.

I hope people aren't too worked up.  All Codigo is really doing is pointing out reasons why the Clans make good villains.  Even if all of what he is saying can be thrown down at the feet of the House lords and ladies, too. 

Select minorities rule BattleTech,  from the First Prince and his lords, to the Cappies being ruled by insane Liaos, from a God-like Coordinator, to a Pirate captain with dreams of being a despot.

[codigo]

Nah, being a FWL fan is a lot closer than the Clans are to the Cubs.  The FWL has had practically nothing except "down time" since the beginning of the franchise, while he Clans have remained a relevant and constantly covered part of the setting since their arrival.

Agreed. To the point i regularly choose characters from this background. Being in limited stasis allows me to craft their story to my liking.

[codigo]

Haters gonna hate,
Clanners gonna clan.

I hope people aren't too worked up.  All Codigo is really doing is pointing out reasons why the Clans make good villains.  Even if all of what he is saying can be thrown down at the feet of the House lords and ladies, too. 

Select minorities rule BattleTech,  from the First Prince and his lords, to the Cappies being ruled by insane Liaos, from a God-like Coordinator, to a Pirate captain with dreams of being a despot.

[StopHate]
One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.

Clans can be classified as villains depending on the timeline. 3049? they all are clear cut villains. In 3145? Diversification makes it more difficult to say. The bears? not at all. Scorpions? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Jade Falcons? Clearly. Wolf? Most likely, but they are trying to misdirect. Spirit cats and Diamond Sharks? Not at all.
[/StopHate]

Of course. Good villains make a story interesting. But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know. And pretending that Alaric is anything but a villain is.... disingenuous.

[rebs]

[StopHate]
One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.

Clans can be classified as villains depending on the timeline. 3049? they all are clear cut villains. In 3145? Diversification makes it more difficult to say. The bears? not at all. Scorpions? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Jade Falcons? Clearly. Wolf? Most likely, but they are trying to misdirect. Spirit cats and Diamond Sharks? Not at all.
[/StopHate]

Of course. Good villains make a story interesting. But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know. And pretending that Alaric is anything but a villain is.... disingenuous.

I would say you have been largely successful in your endeavor.  But I am one voice alone.  Others may judge differently and if you continue to pay attention to this thread, you will read all about those who doubt your point.

But success is limited.  That's what I meant by "Haters gonna hate, Clanners gonna clan."  Ignoring the in-built bias, it just means you will never convince a Clan fan that their faction of choice is worse somehow than certain Kuritas, Liaos, or Davions.  Or Camerons.  Or Blakists. 

That said, I know you aren't trying to push anyone off of their fandom.  You aren't even making them question it.  But you have stirred up the critical thinkers, and that's a joy to see.  The last two or three pages have a lot of life.  And if you read back to the beginning, you'll see there are lots who believe as you do.

[Mecha82]

But you have to pair them with good protagonists. I think Victor was one, but Julian... nah. I don't know.

I disagree with you. Victor was no means good protagonist. At least he wasn't well written one. He was too much of gary stu and Deus Ex Machina for my taste to be interesting protagonist. To me that is big strike among others against VSD and why I dislike him as character. Julian seems like better character of two but I am not sure if I ccan think him as protagonist. Then again I am not Davion fan so I won't see any Davion house lord as protagonist just because they are Davion. 

[SteelRaven]

One of the rules of critical thinking is that before making a judgment you have to recognize your biases. "Hate" is one of those. I left that at the door when I started to argue, with the idea of making things fun. I don't really hate a pretend culture. I assumed that as my bias and have tried to base my reasoning around it. To the success or failure you have witnessed.

No wait! I LOVE hating the clans!

Pick a lane. 

[Natasha Kerensky]

No, that's not a textbook definition of genocide. Oh, wait! It is!!!!

No, it’s not.  Genocide is defined as killing a large number of people belonging to a nation or ethnic group because of their nationality or ethnicity.

No one is killed when a bloodline is reaved.  That bloodline is just removed from the trueborn eugenics program.

And a bloodline is not a nation or ethnicity.

So, trials of genocide are a tool of conformity control in the clans. Whether a Clan (Wolverines, Steel Vipers) is to be wiped or a gene sequence (reaving)

You’re confusing Trials of Annihilation (sanctioned genocide) with Trials of Reaving (eugenics program management).  They’re not the same thing.

And thanks for bringing the Wolverines up. Remember how, after they were annihilated, all sibkos that contained Wolverine genes were... reaved? Children... take their own lives.

Again, that’s Annihilation, not Reaving.

And don't come and tell me that a child taking his own life for perceived genetic taints is not the consequence of brainwashing.

If you’re referring to the passage about a Ghost Bear sibko with Wolverine bloodlines, we don’t have to resort to brainwashing.

Again, Clan society is about the community, not the individual.  Your value and worth are based on what you can contribute to the community, not on a set of individual rights and liberties.

In that context, Wolverine bloodlines posed a major threat to any Clan that harbored them after the Wolverine Annihilation.  Not only could those children no longer contribute to their beloved Ghost Bear Clan, they posed an existential threat to its continued existence.  That’s why those sibkin killed themselves — not because of brainwashing but for the greater good.  It’s little different from Spock’s suicidal speech about the “needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few” at the end of Wrath of Khan.

It may be alien to our modern liberties, bills of rights, sense of justice, etc., but this kind of society where the group is more important than the individual actually dominates most of human history.  I’m not saying that this alternate set of values is right in any absolute sense.  But it’s definitely not brainwashing, either.

This is also why the Bears were so keen on joining Stone’s coalition and fighting Blakists.   The Bears did not in fact remove all trueborns with Wolverine bloodlines from their eugenics program, and needed to eliminate any Blakist Wolverines/Blood before the other Clans found out.  So although the incident with that Bear sibko is shocking, the Bears did not actually act uniformly to protect their Clan.

Of course they did!. But at least they had the good taste to show remorse. That's why the Ares Conventions came about.

No.  The Ares Conventions predate the Spheroid atrocities that I cited.  Ares Conventions were Age of War, Amaris’s atrocities were end of the Star League, and Kentares was Succession Wars.  The first did nothing to stop the other two.

the point was to demonstrate that genocide is not exceptional behavior in the clans, but a normal tool of social control of the clans.

No doubt, genocide is wrong.

But this is a fictional universe at war, created to support a war game.  And certain Clans hardly have a monopoly on genocidal acts in this universe.  For every Wolverine or Spirit annihilation, there’s a dozen worlds depopulated by nukes, poisoning, and abandonment in the First Succession War alone.

There’s no black-and-white here.  All the major factions have committed major atrocities and genocidal acts.  (The guys wearing white have even committed some of the most recent and worst ones!)  Arguments that any one faction is worse in this regard are silly.  They’re all warlords.

If this is really an issue for you, then your problem isn’t with any particular faction.  It’s with the game.  Nothing wrong with that, but you should probably find a different game universe that’s not about large-scale warfare.

But checks and balances make excess more difficult to accomplish.

Looking at today’s world and recent/modern history, I think the jury is still out on that.  Personalities ultimately matter.  But Rule #4 forbids any substantive discussion so we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Khans are the ultimate authority for their clan. If a Khan doesn't want any more trade with another clan, no merchant council is going to overrule him. An even though an economic war is too sly for a regular clan, the more devious could easily decide to do this to weaken a military post before attacking.

This is not unique to the Clans.  It’s just the normal course of events in the lead-up to any war.  This is another complaint about the nature of war, not about a faction.  If you don’t like large-scale warfare, then this is the wrong universe for you.

And they live from "trial" to "trial". Absorbing, annihilating, grieving (?, that's the word? English is not my native tongue). Their economy is driven by conflict. As you say, this is a wargame. They either are in a constant state of war to make things interesting, or they aren't.

It doesn’t matter.  The point is that Khans are not predisposed to meddling in the minutiae of their lower castes.  They delegate those decisions to the lower-caste councils.  Clans couldn’t run otherwise, whether they’re just conductung a few cattle raids or undertaking a major war (and especially when the Khan is distracted by a major war).

Of course, because clanners are not enamored of particular bloodnames, and want to incorporate in their clans. How many trials have been conducted for the Kerensky bloodname?

I don’t think it has ever been stated or indicated, so we don’t know whether the Wolves are always fending off trials for Kerensky bloodlines or whether other Clans don’t declare such trials out of deference to the Founders.  Probably somewhere in between.

Page 49 of the Warriors of Kerensky. Literature is almost unknown

Yep, I missed or forgot that passage.

I question it, though.  I get that the Clans would control access to certain works like the books Aidan had.  But the existence of up to 20 versions of The Remembrance, stories like The Legend of Turkina, and Ghost Bear Great Works would seem to indicate that the Clans do have their own literature.  It’s also weird that the Clans create every other kind media except the printed word.  (There are no novelizations or script mass printings?)  Lastly, and most importantly, there are other canon references to Clan literature like this one:

“Clan literature is filled with stories of malcontents who fled to the bandit caste...” (Clan Wolf SB, p. 16)

Based on all that, I think Clan: WoK, p. 49 is in error.  If/when the topic is revisited in a future product, it should be made clear that the Clans have and produce literature, but access to certain works is restricted.

And while it is not mandatory for a civilization to have literature, it sure is telling of their level of culture.

It’s really not.  Again, with no paper or books, the Norse (Vikings) and their predecessors still had an oral tradition that created some of history’s most elaborate poetry, Western tradition’s second most important mythology, and the oldest surviving story written in English.

The fact that each of the clans has different traditions doesn't mean that each clan doesn't conduct its own version of indoctrination.

All societies “indoctrinate”.  Just because you disagree with the values or norms of a society does not mean that its members have been indoctrinated into their society any more than you have been indoctrinated into yours.

Or that they don't spy on their citizens in their own way.

Most (maybe all) major BT factions spy on their citizens.  The Clans have their Watch, the Snakes their ISF/O5P, the FedRats their MIIO, the Elsies their LIC, etc.  They all watch and report on their own citizens.

You’re not complaining about the Clans.  You’re complaining about the BT universe.  If you’re uncomfortable with it, you should find another.

What you need to be Orwellian is to be destructive to the welfare of your society.

An Orwellian state is one that controls all aspects of its citizen’s lives.  Like most BT factions, the Clans have Orwellian aspects.  But the diversity of Clan life shows that the Clans are not, in fact, Orwellian.  Not every aspect of Clan life is controlled by its Khan or Clan Council.  Quite the opposite.

The crazy guys did it before the clans. The ones 200 years behind...

No, they did not.  The Matar did not work.  A non-working invention is not an invention.  It’s a failed experiment.

A superheavy with the movement profile of the Atlas is not something to be taken lightly

Even if it had worked, a Matar only moves 2/3.  An Atlas moves 3/5.

A properly configured 150 tonner is a game-changer.

With mixed-tech and unlimited BV/C-bills, an intelligently designed 3/5, 130-ton superheavy can beat any possible 100-tonner.  No canon superheavies are in that league.

Don't diss it until you try it.

I have.  From both sides.  Multiple times.  The canon superheavies are just not efficiently designed and they suffer against many canon assaults.

[The Fool]

No, it’s not.  Genocide is defined as killing a large number of people belonging to a nation or ethnic group because of their nationality or ethnicity.

No one is killed when a bloodline is reaved.  That bloodline is just removed from the trueborn eugenics program.

And a bloodline is not a nation or ethnicity.

"Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

[Natasha Kerensky]

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Reavings only remove the possibility of further _trueborn_ births in the eugenics program.  Freeborn births involving relatives of that bloodline are still going to happen.

And again, a bloodline doesn’t qualify as a “national, ethnical, racial, or religious group” in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong.  It’s a slippery slope.  Eugenics and genocide have gone hand-in-hand historically.  But this narrow eugenics tool of the Clans — reavings — is not the same thing as genocide.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as

  In legal terms you have two states: 1) De jure (Lawful) and 2) De facto (In fact/reality). Under Clan jurisdiction (where Clan laws are in effect and enforced) external Conventions and laws mean nothing. If genocide, murder, slavery, etc., are legal, then no crimes have been committed and the entire point moot.
  Legalisms aside, the "Might makes Right" law of the jungle only lasts for so long. Sparta collapsed because they refused to change their inflexible society and military standards. Sparta could field a terrifying army only due to the huge number of Helots (slaves) that did all the work and literally made up over 90% of the population. After decades of campaigns, Sparta was forced to field Helot units and promise them their freedom, eventually Sparta needed to hire Helot mercenaries. Writers of the time commented that the Spartans feared no foreign army more than they feared their population of Helots, who would occasionally rebel and inflict serious damage to the stability of the state.

  Claiming the Clans aren't as murderous as the IS factions isn't much of an argument. If I don't like the Clans, it isn't because I love the IS factions, as they are all the same thing, with minor window dressing so you could tell them apart. I don't like them, either.

  Given a clean slate to make a better society, the Clans opted to see how far they could get by adopting the worse practices of the IS, as if "Imagine how great our lives would be if there was somebody to force us, under pain of death, to get stuff done," was a new or even acceptable plan. No sale.

  BTW, killing by government is also called democide, and not limited to ethnic groups or even specific groups of people, it includes all humans, regardless of justification. Some people may find the practice appalling but de facto applies until you have the ability to stop it.

[Charistoph]

I disagree with you. Victor was no means good protagonist. At least he wasn't well written one. He was too much of gary stu and Deus Ex Machina for my taste to be interesting protagonist.

Really?  It seems to me that he was often the luckiest Prince who faced the Clans.  There wasn't a time he faced Jade Falcon in battle of possession where his butt was not handed to him, and only getting out due to the efforts of his immediate friends.  Most of the "Gary Stu" was mostly in his own head.  The only success he personally had against the Clans was when he rescued Hohiro Kurita and in the Great Refusal, so pretty much Smoke Jaguar.  Even at Coventry, he was lucky when a recon company managed a win to give Martha Pryde the option to pull out with honor to face Vlad Ward's invasion.  His sister out-maneuvered him, politically, which lead to the break up of his realm.

So, I don't see him much of a Gary Stu, just lucky to have good friends.

[Bosefius]

Locked pending review