Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after

[cmerwin]

There have been a few, but most of them were originally Inner Sphere civilians who were caught in the Invasion.

But part of my point was when the warriors ignored the lower castes and treated them as not being worth paying attention to, it meant that they would likely speak freely in front of them.

Ahh, gotcha. I thought you meant within the Clans. And in terms of speaking freely, I think you're probably right, Clan depending. That said, I think the Diamond Shark Warriors may have treated their Merchant Caste more carefully with what information they divulged.

[Sjhernan3060]

Just to provide the reference for anyone w/o WoK--p. 61 "Free speech is discouraged, and nonessential communications are tightly controlled.  Most apartments come with communications equipment, but sophisticated computer systems monitor its use and note any "inappropriate" communications.  The precise definition of "inappropriate" is somewhat nebulous."  It then goes on to describe that the Smoke Jaguars might penalize a laborer for using the Chatterweb to arrange for babysitting while they attended some nonmandatory event, but that the Diamond Sharks prefer seeing what benefits unencumbered communication brings (not that they aren't severely limiting speech thought of as subversive.)  The weakness of their spies aside, the Clans are masters at information control within their own.

This is off topic but I am curious: if the jags did have such a police state then wouldn’t they have had a huge Watch?

[Alan Grant]

I'm not sure if police state is the best term for it.

They allowed their lower castes very little. Communication time constrained, quality of life restricted, food restricted (at times at least).

If the Clan gives you everything you are allowed to have, and they limit what you do have, is that a police state? Or just a restrictive one?

And btw they weren't afraid to use public, open face violence and brutality to crush any misbehavior.

That's not quite the same thing as traditional police state in my mind. It's more like a military occupation. Just one of your own people. And since the Jags were quite open about it, they could use obvious public warriors to do some of this. But they could even enforce this through their lower castes. If the technicians control the chatterweb, then the jags are telling the technicians who manage the chatterweb how much time to allocate. If the Jags are limiting consumer items, then they'd be telling the Clan's lower castes how much of such things to make and distribute.

It wouldn't just be a function of a Watch, or the warrior caste, it would be a bunch of Clan-wide policies, enforced in part by the lower castes themselves.

All that being said, you could be right, they could have had a large Watch. Or maybe a larger than average police force as a percentage of their population. I'm not sure anything tells us from canon sources. So, it's an area of pure speculation, unless there's a source I'm unaware of that addresses this.

[cmerwin]

This is off topic but I am curious: if the jags did have such a police state then wouldn’t they have had a huge Watch?

I agree with Alan, I don't think that any of the Clans would be considered a police state under the usual sense of the term, or if the term is taken very broadly, then Clan society generally would be a less oppressive form of historical police state (with clans like the Jags being more oppressive along the spectrum).

Probably the better analog would be a state under indefinite military occupation and martial law. In this case, neither the Jags nor the Clans in general need a large secret police because there is little ideological monitoring. I imagine it is similar to modern day militaries where conformity is maintained through norms of behavior and enforced through military code and social shaming.

Also, now thinking through it, I don't know of any Clan units responsible for "internal" security (what most secret police are classified), probably because the entire touman is responsible for security.

[Rekkon]

Agreed, plus leaders from other Clans like the Ghost Bears and Steel Vipers would have reasons for not covering it up either. "We outperformed the rest of you Crusaders!" or "ComStar's perfidy means that maybe the Spheroids are in fact tainted!"

The Vipers did not achieve either objective, so they did not outperform the Falcons or Bears.  They just got out while the getting was good and withdrew with fewer casualties than most Clans.

[tassa_kay]

The Vipers did not achieve either objective, so they did not outperform the Falcons or Bears.  They just got out while the getting was good and withdrew with fewer casualties than most Clans.

He didn't say the Vipers outperformed the Falcons/Bears. The "Comstar's perfidy means that maybe the Spheroids are in fact tainted" was a reference to the Vipers' reasons.

[Sjhernan3060]

It's safe to say that Warden Clans would have had the news on full blast and that both their warriors and civilians would make it conversational topic of any meeting with folks from the other Clans

Could battlerom footage be “ smuggled out”? I have to think keeping a lid on any kind of battle footage would be very high on the clan’s security lists

[Mendrugo]

Per the original ask of the thread:

Ulric Kerensky, as ilKhan, made sure that information about the loss and the Truce of Tukayyid was disseminated back in the Homeworlds.  He even had the entertainment subcaste teams that made Clan Spaniel do a special series on it, showing the Crusader Spaniels having to ask for help from the Warden Rock Swine to avoid destruction at the hands of the White Monkeys.