Author Topic: What would you want in a dedicated CV?  (Read 8418 times)

Daryk

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #60 on: 13 January 2023, 15:29:12 »
I think 18 ASF and 2 SC fit a jeep carrier perfectly.

Minemech

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #61 on: 13 January 2023, 22:29:45 »
 The 4/6 curve seems to have been largely recognized both in and out of universe as the ideal base speed line for carrier dropships. A 5/8 curve is acceptable within certain circumstances but is not ideal as a carrier on its own. A key challenge with building carriers in universe is that you want to be economical but not skimpy.

 It is a poorly conceived idea to have a force larger than a regiment in a dropship carrier, and in fact the largest formation one ought to have in one is ideally a wing. The value of aerospace fighters in the Inner Sphere is strikingly high, thus prompting the Successor States to be willing to use more collars. The Vengeance itself has limited use because it is simply too valuable for anything but the most critical of strategic operations.   

Daryk

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #62 on: 13 January 2023, 22:38:38 »
An Overlord converted to a CV wouldn't be bad at all.  18 ASFs and 2 SCs would leave it with about 500 extra tons for support crew, ammo, and gas...  8)

Cannonshop

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #63 on: 13 January 2023, 23:22:30 »
I think 18 ASF and 2 SC fit a jeep carrier perfectly.

TWO??

what roles are your smallcraft filling that you only need two of them?  I'd humbly suggest there are LOTS of roles for a 150-200 ton small craft that would be advantageous for a carrier's operations-enough that you might wanna have more than two of 'em.

Jobs like:

In-flight refueling to extend your fighters in their patrol or strike range (to avoid exposing mr. carrier to return fire from the enemy)
ECM
ECCM
SAR (Pilots still need to be rescued if they eject, and a group of shuttles can do this a lot easier than hauling your whole airbase to peek at every beacon)
Personnel transport/transfer (so you don't have to land just to replace Bobby whose enlistment is up or pick up the FNG's to replace losses)

"Heave To" Health-and-welfare inspections in peacetime
casualty transfer

etc. etc. etc.

Fighters are your PRIMARY weapons, but a working Naval force is working even in peacetime, and having a decent number of utility shuttles is an asset for a Carrier even in wartime.

at minimum you'll, I suspect want to have at least two small craft for every six fighters just to handle the scutwork jobs that the whole dropship is overkill for and the fighters aren't equipped properly to do.
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Giovanni Blasini

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #64 on: 14 January 2023, 06:30:29 »
Y'now, one thing being missed is that, while, the title of the post is more general, the OP's initial question was to ask "What could you use to replace the Leopard CV?" which is way more specific.  I mean, he'd even specified a squadron-sized ship.

Yes, absolutely, due to economies of scale, bigger is better, including for our CV DropShips.  And perhaps the answer really is "squadron-sized carrier DropShips are purely non-viable", but I'd really be interested in exploring that question a bit more, too.
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Daryk

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #65 on: 14 January 2023, 08:03:09 »
200 tons is really enough to pack all those miscellaneous missions in.   But I see your point about more is better.  :)

To Gio's point, 6 ASF and 2 SC would be a definite improvement for a Leopard-alike.

Minemech

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #66 on: 14 January 2023, 09:14:40 »
Y'now, one thing being missed is that, while, the title of the post is more general, the OP's initial question was to ask "What could you use to replace the Leopard CV?" which is way more specific.  I mean, he'd even specified a squadron-sized ship.

Yes, absolutely, due to economies of scale, bigger is better, including for our CV DropShips.  And perhaps the answer really is "squadron-sized carrier DropShips are purely non-viable", but I'd really be interested in exploring that question a bit more, too.
Squadron sized dropships are viable because regiment sized are not all that useful. Wing and squad are viable mixes.

Cannonshop

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #67 on: 14 January 2023, 10:13:18 »
200 tons is really enough to pack all those miscellaneous missions in.   But I see your point about more is better.  :)

To Gio's point, 6 ASF and 2 SC would be a definite improvement for a Leopard-alike.

I could actually see that as having some value...not a LOT of value, but some value, especially as a raiding support platform backing, maybe a company sized pirate element or low-intensity operations mission, or as a training vessel for a functioning Naval Academy Program.

The  proportion, at least, makes some sense.
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Minemech

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #68 on: 14 January 2023, 11:04:54 »
 When the new warships were introduced to the Inner Sphere, only the Mjolnir and Thera initially carried more than a wing. The former was a million ton warship, the latter a dedicated supercarrier. The Feng Huang was later upgraded to carry more, but that was a visible response to the Thera, and one quite demanding upon that particular Successor State. Assault ships like the Overlord A-3 were designed because the Federated Suns became desperate for warship escorts. It was not paranoia.

 That said, this created an unfortunate paradigm where assault ships easily carried at least a Squadron.

Hellraiser

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #69 on: 14 January 2023, 23:38:44 »
To Gio's point, 6 ASF and 2 SC would be a definite improvement for a Leopard-alike.

That's what I was saying, if the Leo-CV & Intruder made a baby-DS it would make for a solid system interdiction patrol craft.

The Leo-CV much like the Mech-Droppers in TRO3025 was all about "fit in this formation" and not much else.
Its hard to picture a "real world" DS like a Leopard that wouldn't also sport a single platoon of infantry for security, scouting, boarding operations, MP Duty, heck just a few bunks for when a VIP visits or Journalists are attached, etc etc.

I wasn't in the Navy but I'd think that US ships aren't at 100% capacity just getting the basic crew on board.
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Cannonshop

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #70 on: 14 January 2023, 23:57:41 »
That's what I was saying, if the Leo-CV & Intruder made a baby-DS it would make for a solid system interdiction patrol craft.

The Leo-CV much like the Mech-Droppers in TRO3025 was all about "fit in this formation" and not much else.
Its hard to picture a "real world" DS like a Leopard that wouldn't also sport a single platoon of infantry for security, scouting, boarding operations, MP Duty, heck just a few bunks for when a VIP visits or Journalists are attached, etc etc.

I wasn't in the Navy but I'd think that US ships aren't at 100% capacity just getting the basic crew on board.

Actually wouldn't be a good interdiction or patrol craft, with a loadout like that, it's a precision strike craft and special operations boat.

six fighters aren't going to interdict anything that you'd need fighters to handle (or guns), but it's a decent setup for precision bombing raids or escorting a company or smaller scale 'mech panty-raid (Get in, get out at minimum risk because the target's too cheap/low value to risk something bigger, and you can therefore afford to lose it.)

See, Interdiction requires something called "Coverage".  six fighters, two smallcraft and a dropship isn't going to give you coverage on a defensive mission, but it'll do just fine for sneaking past coverage to chew up someone's poorly defended rear areas.
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Hellraiser

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #71 on: 15 January 2023, 00:05:58 »
Bog standard Union attempting to raid a planet by traveling in normal shipping lanes?
Seems like it could stop one of those.
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Cannonshop

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #72 on: 15 January 2023, 00:33:07 »
Bog standard Union attempting to raid a planet by traveling in normal shipping lanes?
Seems like it could stop one of those.

Interdiction on that means you need to have the capacity to search, which requires identification of the sort that says "Yeah, you know, that union looks more suspicious than the hundred or so others that go through every day."

(being as the Union IS the most common dropship in the Inner Sphere and periphery and many of them ARE hauling cargo instead of 'mechs).

If you're stopping EVERY ship that comes through, you STILL need more than a dropship with only six fighters and two smallcraft, unless you don't see a jumpship more than once or twice in a week (and then, it's STILL a good idea to have more than one of these, or something larger, just to handle the traffic overflow and the need for downtime.)

Customs interdiction needs either a ground base, or endurance, and if you're already building for endurance, you might as well build for coverage, which in turn means you don't go for minimums.  (a single fighter squadron IS the minimum here-less than that and you might as well leave a sign saying "Please don't steal my stuff, I can't defend it")

On the whole, a force the right size for a raid isn't going to be coming down the known shipping route unless their target is your shipping, or they've got a pretty good bet you can't stop-and-frisk (Health and welfare) every dropship moving through. (this is how the Blakists were able to make use of  their 'pocket warships'-they filtered into normal traffic and used obscurity to get into range.)

IOW it's a tactic of opportunity that relies on what? right, insufficient coverage.

A dedicated raider in a raid prone area is going to use pirate points and mobility to get close and try to duck under or around your patrol.  (thus, why you want both mobility, and coverage, and dropships, aren't good for mobility-it takes them DAYS to go from jump point to jump point under their own power-by the time even a quick dropship can react without a jumpship, the raid's already happened.)


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Daryk

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Re: What would you want in a dedicated CV?
« Reply #73 on: 15 January 2023, 05:57:03 »
*snip*
I wasn't in the Navy but I'd think that US ships aren't at 100% capacity just getting the basic crew on board.
It very much depends on the ship.