FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The fight should be over well before the Jagermech has a chance to unload everything, even if using Precision rounds.

[Minemech]

The fight should be over well before the Jagermech has a chance to unload everything, even if using Precision rounds.

Thats a bit optomistic for the Wolfhound, this is not a 1 mapsheet game. I will give you that it might merely be low on ammo, but it starts out with few rounds to begin with using that ammunition.

[House Davie Merc]

Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.

When the ammo on the Jagermech is empty it will no longer have a means to
respond to weapons fire past 9 hexes .

At that point unless the Wolfhound has lost it's Large Laser all it has to do is
WALK to keep out of range of the Jagermech's medium lasers on the turns it looses
initiative ,and WALK to 10 hexes away to fire it's Large Laser at medium range when it
wins initiative . The same thing is what makes the Phoenix Hawk so good against
mechs that can't reach past 9 hexes .

On the standard maps there are only a few places the Jagermech could hide to try to force
a close range fight , but all the Wolfhound has to do is run out away from these spots
and torso twist to fire the Large at ranges the Jagermech can't hit it . The hills just aren't
long enough to prevent the Wolfhound from running around them faster then the Jagermech
can limb them .

Once the Jagermech is out of ammo ,it's DEAD if it hasn't taken out the Wolfhounds Large Laser
or done something to severely effect it's mobility .
( Unless the person playing  the Wolfhound is either a newb or REALLY bad at this game)

If an undamaged  mech moving at 6/9 doesn't want to get caught by a 4/6 on the standard maps then
it won't be .

[Fear Factory]

Yeah... because we can also assume the JagerMech pilot is a n00b.

Thats a bit optomistic for the Wolfhound, this is not a 1 mapsheet game. I will give you that it might merely be low on ammo, but it starts out with few rounds to begin with using that ammunition.

Plus that's 14 damage without heat with a better range bracket.  Still more than the 8 the Wolfhound puts out plus you can gain special abilities with special ammo (chance for critical hit with armor piercing or a better chance to hit with precision), plus with one engine hit, that +5 heat per round is going to really hurt it.  The Wolfhound is going to want to close in fast and it can do that no problem.

I'm rooting for the JagerMech simply because I hate the Wolfhound.  It's a safety net for people who rarely play light 'Mechs.  Great 'Mech, but I would assume the n00b is in that thing because of how good it is.  Wolfhound:  The AWS-8Q of light 'Mechs.

[Jim1701]

When the ammo on the Jagermech is empty it will no longer have a means to
respond to weapons fire past 9 hexes .

The Jagermech can fire continuously for 20 rounds before the AC/5's run dry.  22 1/2 rounds for the AC/2's.  If the fight isn't over by then I'd shoot myself just to get it over with. 

[House Davie Merc]

The Jagermech can fire continuously for 20 rounds before the AC/5's run dry.  22 1/2 rounds for the AC/2's.  If the fight isn't over by then I'd shoot myself just to get it over with.

The previous posters were talking about using precision ammo to both attempt to run out of ammo
before taking an ammo crit and to increase their chances of hitting the Wolfhound .
As per Total Warfare page 142 :   
 " A ton of precision ammo contains half as many shots as a ton of standard ammo (rounded down) .

That means that if it carried all precision ammo it would have 10 rounds before the AC/5s ran dry
and 11 rounds for the AC/2s .
The -2 to hit would be a great improvement for the Jagermech that would improve it's chances of inflicting damage
before the Wolfhound could close but it would also make it empty a lot quicker .

This also brings up the thought of chosing a YEAR for the versus contests from now on .

IMHO most of these  versus were in the spirit of earlier era mechs and a lower tech level .

Precision ammo wasn't developed until 3062 and by that time both of these mechs would be replaced by newer versions
in the vast majority of front line units .

[willydstyle]

To be fair, I've done a few versus. posts that are later-era mechs, because I find them to be more interesting with generally fewer glaring flaws, but they don't get as much traction as the "old tech" versus posts.

[Guitardian]

specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.

[willydstyle]

specialty ammunition wouldn't be found on the stock level 1 versions of the mechs. If the Jager had specialty ammo, the wolfhound would probably have better lasers, double heat sinks, and so on too as befits the time period when all that special ammo was introduced.

The "stock" mechs still exist in 3062, albeit most likely in garrisons rather than more well-equipped units, and I'm guessing that specialty ammo would be a cheap, but relatively effective upgrade that such a formation would be likely to get.

[Fear Factory]

The "stock" mechs still exist in 3062, albeit most likely in garrisons rather than more well-equipped units, and I'm guessing that specialty ammo would be a cheap, but relatively effective upgrade that such a formation would be likely to get.

Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

[willydstyle]

Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

I think Precision ammo is good enough that it's fair, especially for guns like an AC10 where one ton is slightly too few shots, and two tons is two many, you can pick up one ton regular and one ton specialty.

Armor Piercing, however, is just crap.  If it had the half-ammo *OR* the +1 to hit it might be useable, though still not really good.  As it is it's just worthless.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.

Given how basic the arms are, no hands and lower arm actuators, a punch for a Jagermech is at a plus 3 and are at half strength.  So you need an eight if neither mech moves, and only do three points per hit.  Kicks or charges are you only effective physicals, and hard to land given the relative speed differences between the Jager and a 'Hound.

[Guitardian]

I think Precision ammo is good enough that it's fair, especially for guns like an AC10 where one ton is slightly too few shots, and two tons is two many, you can pick up one ton regular and one ton specialty.

Armor Piercing, however, is just crap.  If it had the half-ammo *OR* the +1 to hit it might be useable, though still not really good.  As it is it's just worthless.

I do agree with all of this, it would make it more "fair", but that's changing the parameters. I thought the parameters of these FIGHT NIGHT matchups were.. basic mech.. basic pilots... basic maps...basic fight. I Figured that would imply basic ammunition load too. If one has access to variations of choices (like if I'm fighting against a heat-heavy mech, take inferno rounds for my SRMs would be countered by saying "well I take double heat sinks for the extra heat" and so on).

 If one mech gets customized beyond the absolute standard (yes believe it or not, regular SRMs do exist! just like I have a hard time convincing some people that 1/1 pilots aren't really a common occurence to consider when evaluating a mech's performance - the failure of BV-style matchups versus scenario styled matchups)

... so.. if one gets customed, then the other would too and it no longer becomes a matchup of simple, stripped down basic mech designs, but of decision-making and cleverness in tricking your mech out best... which is not an adequate determination of a mech's capability. regular old autocannon rounds on the regular old jagermech, just like wolfhound doesnt get the double sinks that befit its energy weapon focus.

 The point is in the poll about this matchup was that it isn't a fair fight as introduced, which many most voters agreed. We can ask "what about an atlas versus a banshee?" and then the banshee guy can say "yes but its a banshee-S" and suddenly the matchup changes. Ammo load is just as much a game changer as variant model weapon changes, imbalanced pilots, inclusion of higher technology than the other guy, and other such variables.

[willydstyle]

The difference is that a JM-6S with specialty ammo is still a JM-6S.  If you were to perform any of the other changes you mentioned, then you're actually talking about a new variant.

[Kit deSummersville]

Pretty much.  I like using special ammo in introtech level games and it adds some edge without breaking the game.  I wish the 1/2 ammo thing would go away though...  why don't missiles suffer the same fate?

Some missile loads do, such as Thunder Augmented.

[willydstyle]

Some missile loads do, such as Thunder Augmented.

But you can stick to TW specialty ammo without having to worry about that.

[iamfanboy]

The Wolfhound wins.

I've DONE this fight before - several times - and the WLF-1 wins every time.

Hell, I've taken Commandos , stock models, against a JM6-S and won. Keep up your movement rate, circle around so the MLs can't target you, and Bob's your uncle.

The JM6-S is just too weak, thanks to those crippling AC/5s. The JM6-A, however, is a very worthwhile 'Mech - so much so that I wonder why the -S was ever even produced after it was discovered.

Oh, wait. Because the game devs were obsessed with the AC/5.

Hell, the Jagermech doesn't even have the excuse that it was one of the original combat book Mechs!

Gods, the AC/5 just pisses me off so much. It's so bad, so very bad, and yet on so many stock designs.

[willydstyle]

Eh, I still think the AC/5 is better than the AC/2 in a mech fight, and it has two of those as well.

[Kit deSummersville]

But you can stick to TW specialty ammo without having to worry about that.

I'm just saying that some missile-loads do cut the number of salvos in half.

[willydstyle]

Ah, I read it as saying that T-aug breaks the game.  Honestly, I don't even know what they do :D

[Fear Factory]

In all honesty I prefer the JM6-A to the JM6-S.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

As a member of the JM6 Hater club, I am contractually obligated to say the Wolfhound will win. Because it will.

[Hanse Davion61]

I have taken a lance of WLF-1 up against a Dashi prime and guess what happened for loss of one Wolfhound the Dashi dropped dead due to the constant pecking of the Wolfhounds small fast and well armed the Wolfhounds ran and hit from the rear and as the Dashi is slow at moving its rear was shredded easily, oh the Wolfhound lose was due to lucky double six and took the head of the Wolfhound.

[CJKeys]

The Wolfhound could eat the JagerMech for breakfast and be ready for another one by lunch time with little to no problem.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wow, thread necromancy.

[Kovax]

Would someone like to post a better balanced match, like a basic 3025 Locust or Stinger against the sad but rightly maligned Jaegermech?

[Spartan117]

As a member of the JM6 Hater club, I am contractually obligated to say the Wolfhound will win. Because it will.

+1

[Minemech]

 Don't you guys think you are pushing it with the pro-Wolfhound and nasty anti-Jagermech remarks? They both have their uses, for example if a Stuka is headed towards my mobile HQ, I will take the Jagermech over 3 Wolfhounds.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Don't you guys think you are pushing it with the pro-Wolfhound and nasty anti-Jagermech remarks? They both have their uses, for example if a Stuka is headed towards my mobile HQ, I will take the Jagermech over 3 Wolfhounds.

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about a 1 on 1 fight between a Wolfhound and a Jagermech.  And the Hound is just that much better at 1 on 1 fights than the Jager is.

[Minemech]

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about a 1 on 1 fight between a Wolfhound and a Jagermech.  And the Hound is just that much better at 1 on 1 fights than the Jager is.

When people call it one of the worst mechs ever, it becomes fair to add context. The post saying it would be a fair match to have the Jager go up against the Stinger may have been using hyperbole, but it fit in context by calling it one of the worst mechs in 3025. Mech v mech is not the only thing in Battletech afterall.