Is there any nation that gives aircraft pilots enlisted rank?

[kato]

The only one that comes to mind is the US but this was back in WW2.

NCOs as pilots for all aircraft including combat aircraft were common in many NATO air forces and armies until about the early to mid 70s.

The switch to officers only was arguably because at this point in time early "mass-produced" first-generation jet designs were being retired and, at the same time, a pinching in budgets meant to optimize the investment financially a pilot would have to stay on longer after being trained up. Which was more the case with officers. Oh, and in some places there were complaints about unequal earnings for the same job.

During WW1, WW2 and inbetween NCOs and enlisted as pilots were rather common, and in some countries - such as Japan - no officer would ever be a pilot himself.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

A zero-ranked officer is easy to cost.

But I see no reason to make such a NCO tank commander the full officer rank. There may some tank platoon leader, that is an O-1 grade officer, but there subordinals are just the NCOs, not the same officers.

If they graduate the academy, they should start the whole career as the commissioned officer. If the NCO proves themselves, they may promoted to the higher NCO rank or lower officer rank and also become the platoon leader. But, every single tank commander is an officer seems nothing but ridiculous, that makes no sense to me.

I know, the world does, but it does not also means I want it as well.

Also, it is only makes sense to me if there is no separated line of enlisted and officer, and it is just merged to one long road that have some shortcuts reserved for the best.

Honestly, I think that the different road of enlisted and officer is ridiculous and it must be integrated to one road, same as public official ranks(that is basically start to bottom but the able people are able to start with higher echelon, or able to rise faster). So it would be better to think about that instead. Ha, it would be an another victory of ComStar within myself, for I like six unit formation already.

[DOC_Agren]

  I've run enough campaigns where players take OCS, pump up their combat skills and become Min/Maxed gods of the battlefield, only to be utterly useless when sitting at a desk, which prompted me to model campaigns based on the "Archer" series, with corrupt, incompetents running rampant, with one character, Helmut von Wiener, appearing in several fanfic stories based on actual campaign plotlines: From "Rheinhardt's Corporate Raiders -First Mission"

Yep I had those players years ago in a campaign where they were worned ahead of time that roleplaying to be done not just roll playing.
It was amusing that 1 player could not figure out why his unit with high level P/G kept getting crap contracts vrs everyone else.  No Negations skill, nor hired a NPC to handle that for him, we had some available (best was roleplayed by players GF who had no interest in BT but loved to roleplay)

But my Merc, I used to treated most mechwarriors as Warrant Officers but most lance commanders were officers.

[Daryk]

Certainly... lance commanders should be Lieutenants.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Or high ranked NCO, such as master sergeant.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Certainly... lance commanders should be Lieutenants.

  Why? Rank doesn't make anybody any smarter, skilled or talented, it just means they earn more.
  The group I GMed last, nobody wanted to be in any form of command or responsibility, so left all that up to NPCs.
  On the field, they did what they wanted to do, which was kill things, so I came up with a rank structure that made them all the pay equivalent of privates and the rank of "Employee". No uniforms, no rank insignia, they wore what they wanted to wear, some wore clown suits based on House uniforms just to show contempt for the military (all the players were veterans) and there was no saluting, no parades, no military rubbish allowed. Briefings were very general and they were pointed at the enemy...who were slaughtered, because these guys were gods and their customized 'Mechs near unbeatable.

  I had to toss them at the Clans and the unit doubled in size due to the bondsmen they took (given the rank of "Temp"), even though they lost a couple of members due to random head capping. Eventually they bit off far more than they could chew by taking a battalion against an elite Capellan regiment and wound up captured, with all their equipment taken, although six months in a Capellan prison camp didn't teach them a thing, other than the Clans were easier targets.

  Rank, especially officer rank, is a bribe to keep borderline performers from going to work for another company. The really smart ones leave and work for the money in private businesses.

[Daryk]

I suppose it depends on what the state expects from its military.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Because NCO is concentrated on micro level command, and officer is concentrated on macro level command, it is no wonder that NCO commands platoon level of force. Many nations of our era are have NCO platoon leaders.

I suspect that high ranked NCO have not much a problem to become a company commander as well. NCOs are generally not learned for the larger commands and that's the part of the reason why they are not get the higher command(and they are initially origin from experienced senior commoner soldier who assists inexperienced young aristocrat officer), but high ranked NCOs will have the experience enough to cover that.

[Giovanni Blasini]

warrant officer began as a way to commission critical personnel like blacksmiths and carpenters without running into problems like a quartermaster hijacking the division's marching band to haul bridging equipment 30 miles behind the enemy lines to help a half-strength recon company and a single tank crew steal a pile of Kuritan gold.

That's...oddly specific.

[nerd]

Looks like a reference to Kelly's Heroes.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Looks like a reference to Kelly's Heroes.

  Glaringly. KH was a dig at officers (and an anti-war film), as the whole operation was run by NCOs (although Kelly was a Lt, busted down to Sgt) and officers were portrayed as clueless incompetents.

[VhenRa]

I'll point out... the in-universe fluff on at least a couple factions has their mechwarrior corps as entirely officers.

Capellans have their mechwarriors all as officers... and have a weird rank system where an officer commanding a mech company is the same rank as an officer commanding a tank battalion.

Pre-FedCom Lyrans were also purely officer MechWarriors. [If you go through original 3025 House Book. Then you go through FM Lyran Alliance, where it specifically points out this difference.]

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The funny thing is battlemech is just a ground combat vehicle, but the commander of non-bipeds are start with sergeant but pilot of battlemech is starting with officer. -_-;; It is not the same branch with the fighters....

If a battlemech is worth a lance(platoon) or most vehicle, that is able to compare four or six combat vehicles, then it is safe to give them the position of platoon commander - and perhaps followed officer rank. But surely it isn't, and mechwarriors are not the individuals with supernatural powers like the other fantasy settings. If the setting have the magicians and only a few are able to manifest the spell, then it is no wonder that all military mages are granted officer rank for their precious talent. But, for me the status of a battlemech pilot is no more than a tank commander. Some individuals are rise through the rank for their talent and luck, but not because their branch is battlemech pilot.

At first, I think that their branch of service is same as the combat vehicles - both of them are armored branch anyways.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

At first, I think that their branch of service is same as the combat vehicles - both of them are armored branch anyways.

  The entire BTU revolves around the battlemech and in the now mythical "Mad Max" era, where battlemechs were considered rare, a lance of 'Mechs could conquer a planet. Updated combat rules pretty much killed that myth. Using the updated rules, the Clan invasion would have been stopped at the first planets, as infantry with rudimentary (20th Century level) equipment is no longer the cannon fodder of earlier rules. If a 'Mech is close enough to use its machineguns, the infantry is close enough to fire back. I've played out scenarios with 'Mechs facing infantry in the open and while dozens of soldiers die, the 'Mechs get nickled and dimed to death. I've even played out standing out of small arms range and while it is feasible, who wants to play out over a hundred turns to eliminate a company of infantry? During that time, the infantry could have dug in and become impossible to kill.
 
  Given the above scenario, what does the Mechjocky do? He calls in the infantry, vehicles and artillery that his machine was supposed to replace, as a sledgehammer makes a poor flyswatter. Given equal ranks, a Mechwarrior will outrank a tank or infantry commander, even though that Mechwarrior has no clue about how either forces are used. Hence the fallacy of rank -Rank does not reflect ability or even competency. In campaign, I have released officers I've taken prisoner because they would cause more harm to their side than mine...
   

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Perhaps the reason for this is the money(and technology) then. The cost of a fusion engine is not a joke and it is not easy to get either, with the same fusion engine it is generally better to run a biped machine for its multiterrain ability, and biped machines are harder to make than the combat vehicle(especially for tried and true tracked and wheeled). With these facts, it is no wonder that such a myth was borne.

Also, don't underestimate the junior officers. While they lacks experience, but they actually taught the art of war quite well. All they lacks is the experience, and you have given it to them already.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Also, don't underestimate the junior officers.

  I was a US Army sergeant. I had no faith in ANY officers, especially the generals. It was Moxley Sorrel, a Confederate staff officer under Lee who said "A general is paid 301 dollars a month, 300 to make him feel good and one dollar for what he actually does."

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

But, no sergeant have a meaning without an officer. War is more than the micro management. It is also true that no officer can do their duty without a sergeant, though. Both of them are in complimentary, rather than competing. A lone head and a lone hand have no point; they are only meaningful it they works together as a whole.

I see your experience is the reason for this, but if the reality is like that then why they aren't run all the military by sergeants, without any officer? Yes military is the ultraconservative organization, but it works at least.

And you should remember that there are some officers rise from enlisted(NCO included). Are they simply turned to jerks, as the officers what have you seen? I don't think so.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

But, no sergeant have a meaning without an officer. War is more than the micro management. It is also true that no officer can do their duty without a sergeant, though. Both of them are in complimentary, rather than competing. A lone head and a lone hand have no point; they are only meaningful it they works together as a whole.

I see your experience is the reason for this, but if the reality is like that then why they aren't run all the military by sergeants, without any officer? Yes military is the ultraconservative organization, but it works at least.

  The Soviet military had no ranks at all between 1917 and 1935 but had only job descriptions, like "Machine gunner" or "Infantry" those in leadership positions would have "Kom" (for kommander) as a prefix, such as "Komdiv" for a divisional commander or "komvzvoda" for platoon commander. As soldiers, they were all equal in rank. In 1935 the Soviets slowly introduced ranks among its military and it was confusing for a while as soldiers could have both a technical title and a military rank. It was mostly ironed out by 1940, with senior officer ranks finalized by 1942 and rank insignia redesigned by 1943.

  So, it is entirely possible for a national military to forego the use of a rank system and just assign duties. I've read plenty of literature from the Russian Revolution and from the armies that fought them, about the Bolshevik Red Army and how it operated.
   In an imaginary universe, just about anything can work, even a military without ranks.
   

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I do think that it is better to change it by the same structure of civil officials - they are either start with the bottom, or able to start from the higher ranks with some tests. Although the current enlisted-officer structure have the similar ways, but its core is the remnant of old ways that the concept of commoner and aristocrat was a reality.

But it does not means we should disregard officers just because they are the officer, whaever how skilled and talented they are. It is no less than disregard the enlisted for their lack or requirement of become the officer(or at least don't require that to enter the armed force), but we already know that it is nonsense, isn't?

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  BT character construction has it wrong, if the assumption is that all pilots (mech and aero) are officers. A cadet would go through OCS first, which includes a commitment to serve X number of years, then on to whatever technical school. IF there is a chance of failure (there really isn't, as you spend points for what you want to play) there are dozens of other fields to which a washout may be assigned. Since the option of skipping OCS and just being a NCO is there, how many would rather go straight to serving out their enlistment and get to the gaming part? Short answer: In my campaigns, everybody.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

You should remember that, most nations have the military academy that give the commissions for the graduate. And while they lacks the experience, they have enough knowledge to run the armed force, that is not required for the enlisted(that is expected to take care of themselves to smaller unit).

Actually the way how make an officer in Battletech universe is already suit for your taste; even if they graduate the academy, they starts with sergeant, NOT O-1 grade officer as our worlds does, and they have to prove themselves on field in order to actually get the commission and begin the life of the officer.

Since officers in our worlds often requires bachelor's degree(other than field promotion of dire needs), and some nations at least grants specialist for the person with bachelor's degree when they join the armed force, so it is nothing wrong to give them the sergeant by default. A full four years is enough to earn the rank of sergeant when they choose to join the armed forces starting to private. Not all will does, sure, but someone with enough talent will does, and it is no wonder that such valuable individuals are enter the arcademy and not getting dropped. And it is a waste of time to put such person(that surely complete the advanced course for the soldier) bottom of the line; they should take the position much better than the privates. Also, despite of their lack of experience, they must able to deal with their 'subordinals' or they don't have enough right to be called for a good officer either.

The roman empire was the good example of this. Their elected commander that commands the unit that is similar to our battalion level, was usually the startline of the career of the young noblebirth without real experience for the battle. But, despite of their lack of experience, since no soldiers are want to die in vain under the incompetent commander they only vote for the most able candidates as their own commander. So those young nobles are have to study very hard for the art of war, and distinguish themselves to be actually elected. And, despite of their no real experience, centurions are able to make the gap.

Also the important factor is armor branch. A tank commander is a sergeant. A battlemech is a biped tank. And... is it possible to rise from the rank of private, while keep up the title or battlemech pilot(and individual battlemech commander)? Imperial Japanese in WWII already proves that using private or specialist pilot results catastrophic failure. Even for the tanks, if all the tank commander in a platoon is at least sergeant but one have the rank of private, it is something gone horribly wrong.