MW5:Clans - Ibrahim Ismiril Character Featurette

[martian]

MW5:Clans - Ibrahim Ismiril Character Featurette

Star Colonel Ismiril

[BATTLEMASTER]

Star Colonel Ibrahim Ismiril.  He should have a bit of authority, I'd think.

I enjoyed watching the featurette.  I really like how the MW5 cutscenes are humanizing the Clans.  In many ways, they're different from us, but also in many ways they're the same.

"I am a gracious host."

Also, a few Mad Dogs in that hangar - spot on for Smoke Jaguar

[martian]

Star Colonel Ibrahim Ismiril.  He should have a bit of authority, I'd think.

Kit Commander is his function and Star Colonel is his military rank.

Actually, it should be Kit Master, but PGI has never cared about BattleTech canon too much.

I enjoyed watching the featurette.  I really like how the MW5 cutscenes are humanizing the Clans.  In many ways, they're different from us, but also in many ways they're the same.

This featurette is probably the weakest one. It recycled a lot footage from previous films.

Also, a few Mad Dogs in that hangar - spot on for Smoke Jaguar

I have spotted two or three of Vultures, Ryoken and Thor in that hangar.

[Alan Grant]

I appreciated that they chose someone with a bit more obscure Smoke Jaguar bloodname in Ismiril. Not super obscure to anyone who knows Smoke Jaguar history. But not one of the better-known Exclusive Bloodnames that has lots of named warriors scattered throughout the many books and resources on Clan Smoke Jaguar.

I actually hope they do something with that as part of the story in the game. Perhaps even touching on the subject of the OG Ismiril's relationship with a Nova Cat Khan to explain the origin story of the rivalry/feud between those two Clans. They could even use that to illustrate how weird and strange a "romantic" relationship is in the eyes of the Trueborn characters. I'm picturing a game cutscene where someone asks how the feud with the Nova Cats got started, the romance story gets shared a bit (skewed toward a Jaguar-centric interpretation of those events), and one or more of the young Trueborns is like "oh, good to know, I did not know that story, but I also do not understand it. We trueborns do not have romantic relationships." And someone else is like "Well that generation was born of the Star League, not Clan, they were quite different from us."

Maybe not exactly that but you get the idea, I think it's useful to tie in some bits of Clan culture with Clan Smoke Jaguar/Nova Cat history in a small, digestible way that doesn't distract from the main story arc too much.

[Mech_Minis]

Actually, it should be Kit Master, but PGI has never cared about BattleTech canon too much.

Incorrect on both counts.

Kit Masters are any-ol person that works with the sibkin as a trainer.  The Kit Commander is the guy who runs the entire sibko facility. (See Ter Roshak's official title as Falconer Commander.)

[martian]

Incorrect on both counts.

Kit Masters are any-ol person that works with the sibkin as a trainer.  The Kit Commander is the guy who runs the entire sibko facility. (See Ter Roshak's official title as Falconer Commander.)

In what BattleTech book do the Smoke Jaguars use the Kit Commander title?

[Mech_Minis]

None.  But just because it is never clearly stated does not imply that it does not exist.

Outside the Legend of the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, the "Falconer Commander" title that Tor has is never referenced as an "official" rank either.  Are we to infer that his position isn't a canon position either?

Most of the invasion-era clan "canon" is very surface-level and focuses purely on the active military. Much of the stuff that fleshed out their lore came after the Jaguar's annihilation and as such does not explicitly mention them.  So there are some fairly big holes in what was "officially" published for the Jaguars, but pulling from other sources from later in the timeline as a baseline, we can flesh them out in much the same way that other clan-based novels have.

What we do know is that "Kit Masters" is what the standard trainer was called thanks to Exodus Road. And we know that the Sibko's do have their own internal rank hierarchy thanks to the Thurston novels that do come with their own "Commander" designation for those charged with running the facilities.  So it's actually more of a stretch to infer that for some reason, the Falcon Sibko's have a structured hierarchy with unique rank designations for trainers vs. administrators, but the Jaguar Sibko's just "wing it" with the Kit Masters as the sole step on the ladder.

Ultimately, Ibrahim is in a position more similar to Tor Roshak's potion than Kit Master Porcini's position. So it was more appropriate to give him the "Commander" title instead of the "Master" title.

[martian]

None.  But just because it is never clearly stated does not imply that it does not exist.

Outside the Legend of the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, the "Falconer Commander" title that Tor has is never referenced as an "official" rank either.  Are we to infer that his position isn't a canon position either?

Most of the invasion-era clan "canon" is very surface-level and focuses purely on the active military. Much of the stuff that fleshed out their lore came after the Jaguar's annihilation and as such does not explicitly mention them.  So there are some fairly big holes in what was "officially" published for the Jaguars, but pulling from other sources from later in the timeline as a baseline, we can flesh them out in much the same way that other clan-based novels have.

What we do know is that "Kit Masters" is what the standard trainer was called thanks to Exodus Road. And we know that the Sibko's do have their own internal rank hierarchy thanks to the Thurston novels that do come with their own "Commander" designation for those charged with running the facilities.  So it's actually more of a stretch to infer that for some reason, the Falcon Sibko's have a structured hierarchy with unique rank designations for trainers vs. administrators, but the Jaguar Sibko's just "wing it" with the Kit Masters as the sole step on the ladder.

I was not asking you about the Jade Falcons.

As I said, the actualy canon BattleTech book dealing with the Smoke Jaguars calls such Smoke Jaguar function Kit Master.

[Mech_Minis]

Kit Master is a function clearly established in the opening chapter of Exodus Road.

Kit Commander is never "officially" stated anywhere in any official books (But then again, neither is Ter Roshak's rank of Falconer Commander.) But then again, neither is any other term denoting the position that runs Jaguar sibko institutions. (It is a black hole in the "official" lore.)

As there is no official term designated, we used precedence set by the Jade Falcon books (In particular Ter Roshak,) to give him the Commander title.

I could challenge you to show me where the "Falconer Commander" position is officially stated outside the Thurston Trilogy and you would find a similar black hole. But just because it's not explicitly spelled out doesn't mean that role is not present. Especially when there is prior precedent for that roll in other clans.

[BATTLEMASTER]

I like @Mech_Minis interpretation.  Perhaps that's what the same conclusion the game's screenwriters came to.  PGI might really surprise us here if they're digging this deep into how the Sibkos are managed.

[martian]

Kit Master is a function clearly established in the opening chapter of Exodus Road.

As I said, Kit Master is a BattleTech canon term because it appeared in a canon BattleTech product.

Kit Commander is never "officially" stated anywhere in any official books

Thus, Kit Commander is not a canon BattleTech term because it has never appeared in any canon BattleTech product. It is as simple as that.

(But then again, neither is Ter Roshak's rank of Falconer Commander.)
...
I could challenge you to show me where the "Falconer Commander" position is officially stated outside the Thurston Trilogy and you would find a similar black hole. But just because it's not explicitly spelled out doesn't mean that role is not present. Especially when there is prior precedent for that roll in other clans.

At first you say that "Kit Commander is never "officially" stated anywhere in any official books (But then again, neither is Ter Roshak's rank of Falconer Commander.) and then you say that "Falconer Commander ... is in the Thurston Trilogy".

Let me set the record straight: "Falconer Commander" is a canon term because it appeared in a canon BattleTech product.

But then again, neither is any other term denoting the position that runs Jaguar sibko institutions. (It is a black hole in the "official" lore.)

As there is no official term designated, we used precedence set by the Jade Falcon books (In particular Ter Roshak,) to give him the Commander title.

Kit Commander is not a canon BattleTech term because it has never appeared in any canon BattleTech product.

[Akamia]

Martian, I agree with Mech_Minis here. Their explanation makes sense. Your opposition, actually, does not.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that the position of "Kit Commander" is apocryphal simply because it appears in MW5Clans alone. The position of "Falconer Commander" is canon because it appears in the novels, which are explicitly a canon source where video games are not.

However, both of these positions filled a gap in our knowledge that remained empty before their initial sources were published; "Kit Commander" simply was inferred based on "Falconer Commander"; neither are exactly the same role as "Kit Master" or "Falconer".

Ultimately – and Mech_Minis can correct me on this of course – as far as I can tell, the point has been that this "Kit Commander" title could very, very easily be put into canon material and this would not materially change anything we've already seen in canon except to build upon it. Our windows into the lives of the Smoke Jaguars are quite few and far in between; the idea of a "Kit Commander" in particular simply may never have come up. That doesn't mean that showing one is a contradiction of the canon. There are plenty of ways the MechWarrior video games have played fast and loose with canon, but this really is not one of them. It's as much a valid fill-in of a gap as any canon source could do if it decided to add more details to an event already written about elsewhere – something that happens a lot, actually; the only difference is it's happening in an explicitly apocryphal product this time.

Even if future canon eventually does directly address this issue, even if they decide the position of "Kit Commander" is either called something else entirely or specifically does not exist as the Falcons' "Falconer Commander" does, that would not make you retroactively correct; exactly none of us, including yourself or the writers of this video game, would have known that beforehand. For now, it's fair game. This sort of thing is not just normal for writing fiction such as BattleTech, I'd dare to say it's even expected, whether the material being written is going to be canon or not.

[BATTLEMASTER]

This sort of thing is not just normal for writing fiction such as BattleTech, I'd dare to say it's even expected, whether the material being written is going to be canon or not.

This reminds me of Herb Beas describing how the initials ROM were seemingly defined by accident, well after the acronym was introduced in canon.

I really hope there's a CSJ Beta Galaxy Sourcebook that gets published sometime after the game is released, like how we got a House Arano Sourcebook with HBS' BattleTech game.  Then CSJ can get some more canon description :)

[Akamia]

And this does come back to why (I think) Mech_Minis brought up the “Falconer Commander” at all. If this game violates canon for introducing a Kit Commander, then so did Thurston for introducing a Falconer Commander via a similar gap in the lore years ago. It materially does not matter whether either product meets criteria for canon in this instance, because incidentally, canon can contradict itself just fine. The contradiction, if one exists, does not magically go away by fiat of canon criteria; that’s not how continuity works. If it contradicts lore, it contradicts it regardless of whether it counts as canon itself or not. This stuff happens all the time, for better or worse, and BattleTech is not special in that regard. lol

[Mech_Minis]

Mech_Minis can correct me on this of course – as far as I can tell, the point has been that this "Kit Commander" title could very, very easily be put into canon material and this would not materially change anything we've already seen in canon except to build upon it. Our windows into the lives of the Smoke Jaguars are quite few and far in between; the idea of a "Kit Commander" in particular simply may never have come up. That doesn't mean that showing one is a contradiction of the canon. There are plenty of ways the MechWarrior video games have played fast and loose with canon, but this really is not one of them. It's as much a valid fill-in of a gap as any canon source could do if it decided to add more details to an event already written about elsewhere – something that happens a lot, actually; the only difference is it's happening in an explicitly apocryphal product this time.

Pretty much.  Ibrahim's role is functionally similar to Ter Roshak's role. So a standard Kit Master designation was not going to do. As while there is some overlap, the core roles of those positions are functionally unique.  And as much as we attempt to keep to the lore, the reality is that the written fiction of the Battletech universe does not have an exhaustive canon listing of every single job title and role in the universe. (Especially for anything from pre-21st century publications.) There are many black holes and gaps that are left unsaid.

So in those cases, we go back and lean on precedent, which in this case, there was precedent established through the Jade Phoenix Novels, which is why we maintained the "Commander" designation from those books. 

In specific cases like that, we do what services the story we are telling best. We aren't going to throw logic to the wind on the semantics that a role was explicitly stated as existing in one clan, but never explicitly stated in another (despite a functional need for a position such as that based on pre-established fiction.)

[The Wobbly Guy]

Extrapolation is our friend...