The Diamond Shark tank and Sea Fox preserve: Cause somebody has to start it...

[Wolflord]

I seem to recall that in their early days Falcon watch were supposed to be better at analysis and wolf watch were supposed to be better at the James Bond stuff

[wantec]

Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?

In some cases I would put it to the Loremaster maybe not having much else to do. In most cases the Loremaster is outside of the typical chain of command. In some clans the Loremaster commands a cluster or a galaxy, in others they have a smaller honor guard. This makes it easier to oversee the resources of the Watch without the concerns of overseeing a regular front or second-line combat unit. But most importantly, the Loremaster is tasked with maintaining the traditions and honor of the Clan. So all this espionage-type stuff many would see is a violation of Clan honor, but if the Loremaster is the one giving the orders and they're the one saying it's ok, that probably makes it easier on the conscious of the more hidebound warriors assigned to the Watch or assigned to a mission for the Watch.

[wellspring]

Wellspring, one thing I find interesting is that, it seems, that the Loremasters always seem to be the heads of the Watch.
I wonder why that is?

Not ignoring you Mara, it's just that this answer is better than anything I could have thought up:

In some cases I would put it to the Loremaster maybe not having much else to do. In most cases the Loremaster is outside of the typical chain of command. In some clans the Loremaster commands a cluster or a galaxy, in others they have a smaller honor guard. This makes it easier to oversee the resources of the Watch without the concerns of overseeing a regular front or second-line combat unit. But most importantly, the Loremaster is tasked with maintaining the traditions and honor of the Clan. So all this espionage-type stuff many would see is a violation of Clan honor, but if the Loremaster is the one giving the orders and they're the one saying it's ok, that probably makes it easier on the conscious of the more hidebound warriors assigned to the Watch or assigned to a mission for the Watch.

[Arkansas Warrior]

A question, if I may trouble you good people: Why are the Sharks/Foxes the merchant clan?  We all know they are, but philosophically, what good does it do you as individuals, or as a group, to amass wealth in what is, effectively, a communist economy?  Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power, do y'all have a different take on individuals amassing wealth, perhaps something else?  It just seems odd to have a clan so enamored of such capitalist activity in the more-or-less communist clans.  (No comparison to real world nations is intended, etc etc, I just don't have a better word for clan economies than 'communist')

[roosterboy]

Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power

Yes. Though the Sharks/Foxes don't care about wealth, per se. It's the power that comes from economic dominance that is the big deal.

[rebs]

A question, if I may trouble you good people: Why are the Sharks/Foxes the merchant clan?  We all know they are, but philosophically, what good does it do you as individuals, or as a group, to amass wealth in what is, effectively, a communist economy?  Is it just a matter of wealth being another form of power, do y'all have a different take on individuals amassing wealth, perhaps something else?  It just seems odd to have a clan so enamored of such capitalist activity in the more-or-less communist clans.  (No comparison to real world nations is intended, etc etc, I just don't have a better word for clan economies than 'communist')

Hey ARW

Just my opinion here...   Even in the midst of many planned economies intermingling, like in the Homeworlds, there is wealth to be obtained through shrewd trading, even if the rest of the Clans willfully ignore that fact.  That may in fact make it easier for the Shark/Foxes - the only competitors mentioned in the various sources are the Nova Cat with their Futures Trading system that they worked out mentioned in Invading Clans (but not really expounded upon), and the Jade Falcon bankers (spoken of in FM: Crusader Clans and some other sources). 

The wealth generated through trading seems to go to the Clan itself, though individuals who do well also seem to be rewarded with a comfortable existence.  Said wealth reinvested in the Clan is used toward future growth.  It was something worked out by Karen Nagasawa back in the time of Nicholas Kerensky.  And because she used to write many of his speeches, anything she says is held with a similar level of respect as the words of the Founder (edit: to the Shark Foxes, that is).

IIRC, the sources make mention of the fact that many other Clans despised the Shark Foxes for this, but he (or she) who can win the Trial can dictate their own path...   as long as folks don't go all Wolverine about it, so to speak.

Just musing, would like to see if others had some additional thoughts or counter-theories.

Yes. Though the Sharks/Foxes don't care about wealth, per se. It's the power that comes from economic dominance that is the big deal.

That's what I was thinking too.   O0  Wealth is gained by the Clan, not the individual, though each individual strives to enrich the Clan. 

[Arkansas Warrior]

That's about what I figured, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

[wellspring]

That's about what I figured, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

I've said this before, but it's applicable here. We normally think of the Sharks as Warriors who think like merchants. But it's even more true that their Merchants think like warriors.

In other clans, the Merchants' somewhat distasteful role is to procure the supplies necessary to support their warrior caste. They're inward-focused. But Diamond Shark merchants are more invested in the outcome of their conflicts. They're highly competitive and take an active role in strategy and planning. Many are former warriors themselves, and some even have bloodnames (and therefore seats on the clan councils).

[rebs]

I've said this before, but it's applicable here. We normally think of the Sharks as Warriors who think like merchants. But it's even more true that their Merchants think like warriors.

In other clans, the Merchants' somewhat distasteful role is to procure the supplies necessary to support their warrior caste. They're inward-focused. But Diamond Shark merchants are more invested in the outcome of their conflicts. They're highly competitive and take an active role in strategy and planning. Many are former warriors themselves, and some even have bloodnames (and therefore seats on the clan councils).

Agreed.   Their interactions usually indicate a "commerce as warfare" mindset when dealing with other Clans.

They have outlived most of their enemies, which also speaks for itself.  :)

[Alan Grant]

Within all the lower castes, there are "grades", the better you perform, the higher your grade. The higher your grade, the better life you have, better accommodations, more personal belongings. Clan merchants may not be sitting on personal fortunes of millions or billions of C-Bills, but the Clan is supporting a lavish lifestyle (comparatively speaking, by Clan standards). So if a Clan business man cuts a good deal, that's the benefit, maybe you go up a grade. Maybe you get that promotion that takes up higher among the caste hierarchy. Maybe you get a nice prestigious job close to the Merchant Factor's office.

Within the Clans, you still have the small time business man, peddling goods, barely scraping by, under everyone else's heel. Then you have the successful executive with the office and his own personal ground car. You acquire power. Even in a capitalist society, some people would rather have power over wealth.

[wellspring]

Within all the lower castes, there are "grades", the better you perform, the higher your grade. The higher your grade, the better life you have, better accommodations, more personal belongings. Clan merchants may not be sitting on personal fortunes of millions or billions of C-Bills, but the Clan is supporting a lavish lifestyle (comparatively speaking, by Clan standards). So if a Clan business man cuts a good deal, that's the benefit, maybe you go up a grade. Maybe you get that promotion that takes up higher among the caste hierarchy. Maybe you get a nice prestigious job close to the Merchant Factor's office.

Within the Clans, you still have the small time business man, peddling goods, barely scraping by, under everyone else's heel. Then you have the successful executive with the office and his own personal ground car. You acquire power. Even in a capitalist society, some people would rather have power over wealth.

Good points!

And in command economies, the powerful often are quite modestly compensated on paper, but have sometimes ridiculously lavish lifestyles when you count all the perqs that come with their position. Wealth is just another form of power-- not even the most potent one.

I've always seen the primary Shark viewpoint, though, as being about strategy. Their closest counterpart (by both clans' admission) is the Star Adders. It's just the Sharks focus on logistics and production, while the Adders focus on military and political strategy. So their merchants aren't out for themselves (or, rather, any more out for themselves than in other clans), it's that the caste as a whole sees themselves as fighting an economic war with the other clans.

I think they're also a little more flexible about doling out incentives to reward success. Call it "intelligent allocation of resources", call it "a betrayal of the Clan Way". Maybe just call it "The Clan Way with Diamond Shark characteristics". Whatever you call it doesn't matter... I mean, who cares if the cat is black or white-- just so long as it hunts mice, right?

But we'd be crazy not to see that personal self-interest is always a trump card. The trick is aligning your incentives so that personal selfishness only advances the clan's goals. Every leader in history has wrestled with this problem-- Nicholas Kerensky explicitly designed the clans with this problem in mind-- and nobody has solved it yet, including the Founder.

[Moonsword]

Alright, ladies and gentlemen, let's not get into real world issues here.  Stick to the universe with the big stompy robots.

[Alan Grant]

The SL report on the Clan Homeworlds and how their economy works in Wars of Reaving, pages 26-27, does a fantastic job of explaining how in the Clan Homeworlds, keeping everything running smoothly is a delicate balance, because most enclaves are specialized and not self-sufficient. They talk about mastering this balancing act is difficult and that some Clans are just managing it month-to-month, living on the razor's edge of not having enough of one thing, or too much of another. The report notes that any type of disruption can cripple a Clan. The Diamond Sharks are described as the masters of this system, producing enough for their Clan and still more to use as bargaining chips for other Clans.

The homeworlds fell off the Razor's edge during the Society Revolt and the Wars of Reaving.

When I read those two pages in Wars of Reaving, it really helped me to understand what makes the Sharks stand out from the crowd on the economic front by understanding the landscape better.

[GhostBear]

When I read those two pages in Wars of Reaving, it really helped me to understand what makes the Sharks stand out from the crowd on the economic front by understanding the landscape better.

That section was something I made sure remained in the book, partly because it had never really been described before, and partly because understanding the balance was crucial to seeing how disastrous the coming war was going to be.

That small section has gotten me more kudos from non-Clan fans than anything else in there.

[wellspring]

The SL report on the Clan Homeworlds and how their economy works in Wars of Reaving, pages 26-27, does a fantastic job of explaining how in the Clan Homeworlds, keeping everything running smoothly is a delicate balance, because most enclaves are specialized and not self-sufficient.

Ghostbear, I'm embarrassed to say that I've never thanked you for those two pages either, but I'm doing it now. Insanely great that WoR showed how the system worked (and how sometimes it almost didn't) before tearing the whole thing apart and putting it back together again.

They talk about mastering this balancing act is difficult and that some Clans are just managing it month-to-month, living on the razor's edge of not having enough of one thing, or too much of another. The report notes that any type of disruption can cripple a Clan. The Diamond Sharks are described as the masters of this system, producing enough for their Clan and still more to use as bargaining chips for other Clans.

And then you've got the Smoke Jaguars way over on the other end of the scale. They habitually failed this balancing act because, well, they acted like Smoke Jaguars. So they depended on Trials of Possession to fill in the gaps and keep things rolling. And when those failed, the Sharks were lurking nearby ready to take advantage of the situation by selling them whatever they needed at piratical prices. Most clans probably ran into this problem at one point or another.

Apparently, the Cobras plan on filling in this niche now that the Sharks have migrated to the IS.

I wonder how long the Jaguars could have survived post-Revival even if there hadn't been an Annihilation. With their elite clusters all tied up in the Inner Sphere, and their economy stretched to the breaking point by the demands of the war effort, might they have melted down on their own? A bad string of luck in Trials of Possession, and suddenly your stream of replacement war material is interrupted, and suddenly your ability to support your economy through what is essentially ritual piracy is shattered.

[StCptMara]

That section was something I made sure remained in the book, partly because it had never really been described before, and partly because understanding the balance was crucial to seeing how disastrous the coming war was going to be.

That small section has gotten me more kudos from non-Clan fans than anything else in there.

Frankly? That one section makes the clan economic and trial system make SENSE to those who are not Clan Players,
and even puts it into a perspective for those who are Clan players.

[rebs]

Absolutely.  I became more of a Shark Fox fan because of that description.  It wasn't just a hazy notion of semi-barbaric commerce of some kind anymore. 

And the Odyssey of Lorenzo.   O0

[wellspring]

And the Odyssey of Lorenzo.   O0

That man rocks, and needs his own thread of appreciation.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Remind me of Lorenzo.

[rebs]

He was the Diamond Shark Merchant Factor who got stuck in the Home Worlds and had to sneak out after witnessing the destruction at Barcella and Vinton and all the other fresh ruins.   

[wellspring]

He was the Diamond Shark Merchant Factor who got stuck in the Home Worlds and had to sneak out after witnessing the destruction at Barcella and Vinton and all the other fresh ruins.

He wheeled and dealed his way from the ruins of an underwater city on Vinton, the last surviving Diamond Shark outpost, to a JumpShip and a dropship with supplies, so his team could limp out of clan space. Somehow they ended up in the Chainlaine Isles a year later with a small group of JumpShips, DropShips, data on the hidden Blood Spirit colonies, and a DropShip loaded with advanced Protomech tech stolen from the Society. On his way back to an IS Diamond Shark outpost, he cut several more long-term deals with the Horses.

The story's in WoR. Needless to say, Lorenzo rocks.

(PS: An oddity of the Diamond Shark retirement system. I got the impression from the book that several retired warriors who'd been reactivated at the very end were spared by claiming to their captors (mostly Blood spirits) that they were merchants-- strictly speaking true but misleading-- and therefore not subject to the Reavings. The supplement goes out of its way several times to stress that the Sharks knew about the secret BS worlds very early on.)

[Archangel]

Do we know any details about what happened on Nykvarn? Specifically what the Twelfth and Twenty-second Dieron Regulars did to enrage the Diamond Sharks to retaliate by nearly annihilating both regiments (there is mention of the massacre of members of the DS lower castes).  Oh and on that note when did this take place?  According to FR:DCMS, it was mid-3070, while FR:Clans puts it in 3075.

[Nerroth]

has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.

[rebs]

has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.

If not in the upcoming 3145 FM, then it will be in associated Field Reports that will follow, I would imagine. 

[wellspring]

has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

If they were to be changed, I wonder if Field Manual: 3145 might give some guidance as to how their schemes look like once they go back to being Sea Foxes... or if any of those schemes matched the ones which the Clan originally used prior to becoming Diamond Sharks in the first place.

Or if any of the Galaxies retain their Diamond Shark iconography. Sigma Galaxy fought a Trial of Refusal to retain the name "Fox's Whelps" and retain some Fox symbolism (though their keshik lost a ToR to remain a keshik and became a skate instead). FM:WC suggests that the costume changes were minimal in the first change-- the uniforms seem to drift between cheesy and cool depending on the author. Would love to see some nice-looking uniforms.

Not a DA expert by any means but if the symbol I see floating around is correct, it means they dropped the "Strength, Skill, Nobility" tri-arrow which dates back to Fox days.

Be glad when the change comes. I always preferred them as Foxes than as Sharks. ;)

[rebs]

I was just thinking...  The way the Shark Foxes are going, there's potential for lots of AU situations like the Ghost Bears and Omega Galaxy to occur.  Just thinking about that, or splinter Clans forming from a khanate or aimag.

They would lose the protection of the mother Clan, likely, the situation won't be amicable ("not peacetech" comes echoing to mind).  But the Clan becomes more and more dispersed, so bringing force to bear is only possible on a relatively large scale in a few areas of the IS where any ground based operations are, because those are always well-defended it seems and would have the means to dispatch enough forces to try to deal with the problem.  (not counting any secret places they can strike from.  :)  )

[roosterboy]

If not in the upcoming 3145 FM, then it will be in associated Field Reports that will follow, I would imagine.

What "associated Field Reports that will follow"? Why would there be Field Reports following a Field Manual?

[rebs]

What "associated Field Reports that will follow"? Why would there be Field Reports following a Field Manual?

Well, I would not know for sure.  It was more of hopeful speculation that maybe there would be associated additional products,  as often happens.  Unless everything is covered, of course.   

[Istal_Devalis]

has there been any word on whether or not the colour schemes used for each Diamond Shark Galaxy remain the same when they were (and will be) Sea Fox units?

Not to familiar with current Diamond Shark patterns, but there were a couple Sea Fox units released for MW:DA. If that gets used at all, you'll be seeing blue-green (turquoise?) metallic paint jobs.

[wellspring]

I was just thinking...  The way the Shark Foxes are going, there's potential for lots of AU situations like the Ghost Bears and Omega Galaxy to occur.  Just thinking about that, or splinter Clans forming from a khanate or aimag.

They would lose the protection of the mother Clan, likely, the situation won't be amicable ("not peacetech" comes echoing to mind).  But the Clan becomes more and more dispersed, so bringing force to bear is only possible on a relatively large scale in a few areas of the IS where any ground based operations are, because those are always well-defended it seems and would have the means to dispatch enough forces to try to deal with the problem.  (not counting any secret places they can strike from.  :)  )

I don't think you'll see splinter factions all that often. One of the strengths of the aimag approach is that you are tied into the entire Shark commerce network-- which stretches across the inner sphere and beyond. That gives you reach and the potential for profits far, far exceeding what you can get on your own. Don't think of the 10% the khanates pay as a tithe or tax, think of it as a membership fee. Operating alone is possible, but far less profitable.

More importantly, what's the upside to going rogue? The fact that, in theory, they answer to their clan council and khan doesn't change the day to day autonomy they get. You're already operating largely alone most of the time, so the top leaders already have considerable authority to do things their way. And your line warriors aren't going to put up with you cutting them off from their own influence in the clan council.

I can see individual saKhans or ovKhans trying to break away over personal issues, but their own warriors and merchants aren't likely to go along with it.