Author Topic: Would I be a jerk?  (Read 4186 times)

Syzyx

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Would I be a jerk?
« on: 23 February 2020, 17:32:11 »
I have a game in a campaign next weekend and I think I have a good strategy but I am not sure how much fun it might be for my opponent.

The backstory in a nutshell: My little merc unit got a 'great tip' about an 'abandoned motherlode' of Clantech gear. After a rough fight with the opfor who wasn't supposed to be there I am now the proud owner of a fair amount of junk that used to be my mechs and all the Arbalests I could care to shake sticks at. (and a fair number of Stick IICs to commit the shaking with.)

Of my surviving and functional forces I have quite a few mechwarriors looking for new rides and four WSP-105 Wasp LAMs. So the thought was to take 12 of the Arbalests, the 4 Wasps and run up to the nearby mountains. There I can hide the Arbalests behind hills while the LAMs spot and hopefully do enough harm with the LRMs before my foe can clobber me.

Here's where I wonder if I am being a jerk. My opponent is a good guy, funny, friendly, etc. Really great to game with but he has a pathological addiction to Heavy Metal. I can promise you he will be taking a small group of 3/5 movers loaded down with all the ERPPCs and double heat sinks he can manage. Given the field in question I know I will have plenty of time to empty my bins before he can even see my forces.

And thus do I wonder if I am being a jerk. I have the equipment and opportunity to pretty flatly win the upcoming battle with a main battery that can't be shot at and spotters that probably can't be hit between movement modifiers and staying at range. My opponent knows what I have and is expecting to steamroll me under massive tonnage.

Would I be a jerk or should I come up with a new strategy?
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Fear Factory

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #1 on: 23 February 2020, 17:39:16 »
As long as you both agree on it, you're not a jerk.
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Firesprocket

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #2 on: 23 February 2020, 18:12:40 »
As long as you both agree on it, you're not a jerk.
You can still be a jerk if they both agree on it.  The question of whether they are a jerk or not depends on the knowledge base of both players.  If they both capably are aware of how a LAM works and using the full scope of the rules for them and anything else they plan on using then the OP isn't a jerk.  If the OP's knowledge of the rules exceeds his opponent's and they have no idea what they are getting into, then yes, I'd say they are being a jerk.

monbvol

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #3 on: 23 February 2020, 18:36:37 »
I'd say no for two reasons.

1. Those Wasps won't actually be able to get that much in the way of TMMs to protect them no matter what mode they are in under current rules.

2. If he goes with those ER PPCs as you expect it will not take many hits before your Wasps will have to seriously think about pulling back or otherwise become compromised for spotting.

Paul

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #4 on: 23 February 2020, 19:05:31 »
I agree with your caution: ultimately a game has to stay fun, and subjecting someone to a no-win scenario can be a wildly unpleasant use of your precious game time, even if it's totally realistic, and 100% something you'd strive to create if you were in a real war. So kudos for tapping the brakes and asking a good question.

Your specific example doesn't seem to leave him without options. Unless you can keep rolling backwards, he will eventually catch up, and his superior armor will help him. Indirect Fire is also not an easy proposition, especially when you have to account for the movement modifiers of your spotters. I presume that they cant perch on a rock 30 hexes behind your Arbalests to still provide spotting: odds are, they're in range, which means they have to move a LOT to survive.
Now, he might lose 1 unit before it ever even gets to shoot at anything but LAMs, but overall, this seems quite beatable with what we know now.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

truetanker

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #5 on: 23 February 2020, 19:21:53 »
Why not load up on some clantech A4 FASCAM and launch from your LAMs?

Should be simple enough...

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Daryk

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #6 on: 23 February 2020, 19:25:37 »
Paul's right about that wall of ER-PPCs coming your way.  Without rolling map boards, you're going to be in a hard place.  It's not really a TW scenario, honestly.  A LAM at altitude maintaining LOS to that wall is plausible, but you can't count on the necessary depth of intervening terrain to shield your indirect firing units forever.  And since they're going to be very heavy units, it might come down to how much ammunition they have.  Honestly the only equalizing factor is the certainty you both have in your respective strategies, but again, that's not really a factor of anything at the TW level.

Fat Guy

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2020, 21:00:44 »
Also, in addition to what ha been mentioned above, remember that am LRM 10 only averages 6 damage. So each Arbalest would only be 12 damage a turn, assuming both LRM 10s hit. Which considering the numbers involved isn't going to happen too often.

Even a company of Arbalests isn't going to be very scary in that situation.
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Jester006

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #8 on: 23 February 2020, 21:16:28 »
Paul's right...

Wait a second.  Did you just...agree with Paul?  Well crap, I was hoping for the end of times to come a bit later.
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Daryk

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #9 on: 23 February 2020, 21:22:08 »
LOL!  ;D

I know it's rare, but he and I do see eye to eye on a few things... and I have to admit, it's been more than it used to be since we met face to face...  8)

Paul

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #10 on: 23 February 2020, 22:02:04 »
I know it's rare, but he and I do see eye to eye on a few things... and I have to admit, it's been more than it used to be since we met face to face...  8)

Mind control requires line of sight.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Daryk

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #11 on: 23 February 2020, 22:07:11 »
That works both ways, you know...  ^-^

Psycho

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #12 on: 23 February 2020, 22:14:24 »
If your opponent is fully expecting to steamroll you with the forces he has available, that sounds like a pretty uneven battle to begin with. I'd lay minefields. You've got lots of LRM launchers, and an opponent likely to have limited mobility to begin with. Hit him where it will hurt him more - in the legs. If you could retrofit the Wasps to carry Narc launchers, that would be even better. Mines, and if he chooses to stand still, NARC-compatible LRMs (so you can then indirectly fire without a spotter). If this is sort of meant to be a no-win situation for you, finding some chink in the armor to make it a tough game will make it memorable, regardless of outcome.

elf25s

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #13 on: 23 February 2020, 22:35:15 »
ok i ran few games in my day...if you are hosting add this make only ONE person as rule interpreter. and make sure if there are any new things or changes every one agrees to prior to the game...
other than that game usually takes care of itself...
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

Syzyx

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #14 on: 23 February 2020, 22:37:11 »
I checked with our GM to see what the full scenario will be. I get to pick the maps and deploy in hiding if I so choose. My opponent got to set the bv 'within reason', which turned out to be about 16k. So, after making sure the GM was cool with it, I called my opposite and we shared our lists.

His is predictably him (and he did apologize for what was going to happen to me):

Daishi Hellfire (His prize loadout: 4 ERPPC, TC)
Hellstar
Annihilator C 2

Mine is as described above. I'm thinking I may be able to kill or cripple the Annihilator by the time the others get to me and then I'll have a speed advantage in tight quarters to get rear shots with the ERMLs. Is this a fair appraisal on my part or is it a more even fight than I'm seeing?
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Greatclub

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #15 on: 23 February 2020, 22:50:33 »
honestly, I think you might be better off if you save a few turns ammo for the knife fight.

what optional rules are you using. Arbelest have ECM, and sensor ghosts could tilt things significantly in your favour.

Syzyx

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #16 on: 23 February 2020, 22:54:35 »
Sensor Ghosts are in play, yes. And I have plenty of BV to use my best LAM pilots so tight maneuvers won't be a problem.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Paul

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #17 on: 23 February 2020, 23:58:28 »
With terrain you have a few options. You'll want a fair amount of hills to maximize your ability to dictate LOS when you want it to. With Hidden rules in play, you could deploy in tight formations, terrain permitting, and wait for him to advance to optimum range. Declare all units active at the top of the same Weapons phase, and you can group fire on him at optimum range. Then jump back in to cover the next turn. Especially effective if he passed you (so you get rear shots) or if you time it so only 1-2 of his force can shoot back. Pointblank shots only help you negate movement modifiers and terrain modifiers. He will barely generate the former, so not much of a boost.

So repeated Indirect Shots may be the way to go.

your overall tactic of banking on backshots to equalize is solid given your numbers. Try to keep him between 2 halves of your force, so you always have back armor to pick from.
Swoop in to get 4-5 kicks on the same target. Each kick is a PSR, and provided several land (You'll need 4), he'd get an additional roll, but now all are at +1 to hit.


Accept major casualties.


Overall, yours two play styles are extremely different. This can make it hard for both players to enjoy a fight. He clearly enjoys bringing lots of firepower and armor. You clearly enjoy maneuver. Almost by definition means that if one of you is enjoying himself, the other is not. Either his firepower nullifies your maneuver, or your maneuver makes it impossible for him to do 200 damage per turn.
Something to be mindful of. Neither of you is wrong, but perhaps a degree of compromise is desirable.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Red Pins

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #18 on: 24 February 2020, 01:36:32 »
I have a game in a campaign next weekend and I think I have a good strategy but I am not sure how much fun it might be for my opponent.

Hmm.  Well, one of my old opponents would smile and house rules-lawyer me to death, and I see the opportunity to do the same thing here.  While I'm one of the "fair game" opponents, this is a terrible situation, feelings and relationships damaged any way you want to look at it.  If you absolutely have to, I'd say warn him in advance, then suggest he not let his enthusiasm for 'Heavy Metal' dominate his style of play.

If you have to, I'd point out his limited movement means only the Hellstar is able to break 50 kph, and direct fire weapons mean this is a quick way to earn some assault mechs for your company.  Frankly, I'd blame the GM, but I have a couple options, too;

1. use the standard indirect fire options and accept you will probably lay out one, MAYBE two, and hope for salvage before surrendering the field in good order.  (I can't remember, but assume you can remain on the defensive and force him to assume the risk of attacking.)

2. use Paul's option and surround him with physicals.  In canon fluff, it was tried with stingers and wasps by a CC commander, but failed.  (Sorry, can't remember who or reference.)  Not really an option for mercs who want to AVOID casualties, and I see that while you have better ground speed, you lack JJs for the majority of your force.  If you choose mountain terrain, look for the one backed up to a steep cliff, and sacrifice one to make a push attack and make him risk falling off the cliff.

3. use terrain.  So it's time to get rules-lawyer-ish.  Use fire, smoke, water, and space rules.  Use double-blind rules; opportunities to find him and remain hidden favor you.  And if he's like lots of other direct-fire players, he went for gunnery over piloting.  Force piloting rolls, get him to damage himself for you.  Look into making craters; what happens when you attack the hex with 40 damage or better?  If you make a crater, does it force a PSR, can it flood his hex with water (or make it 'Mud'), or collapse the cliff he's on? 

Mountains are good to limit his mobility and path availability, but water might be better for your situation.  First, choose river delta, and force piloting rolls (It's been so long since I played; can't remember if RD is depth 0 water, if you need -1 or deeper for Piloting, or if it causes +1 to movement.).  Ask for the optional 'Mud' terrain option; it should help, from what I can remember.  Second, check if you can lay mines underwater.  (It sucks, but if you can, that's it.  Flood him; game over.)  Set fires to block LOS, then mine his path.  Bait it with a LAM, if you must, and trust movement modifiers, terrain, and smoke to try to live through the round.  Third, go for an underwater engagement with LR Torpedos in the tubes.  (If you can't lay mines, this is the next best.  Flood him while staying out of energy range; game over.)

If not, and I see Arbalasts don't have JJs, try space or lunar terrain.  No hiding, trust your diffused firepower to cause blowouts (Can't remember the term, or the rules on blowouts very well, sorry.  Not sure if this is a legitimate option, you'd have to check.) fast enough to save something.

Or, use the heavy jungle map - none of them can move fast through it, none of them can fire through it, and fire will turn most of those ER-PPCs into useless paperweights.  Smoke will probably save you units by blocking LOS.  If you can, smoke HIM to close, nothing says you can't have one unit in the center of the map lobbing smoke rounds.  FASCAM the ground around him.  The Gauss you will just have to hope misses often.

Truthfully, I never liked Arbalasts, and my campaign days are long ago, but I would prefer to have taken a vehicle/infantry force knowing his preferences and done my best to remind him they invented those less-effective MGs and missiles to prevent situations like this.  Try to get the GM to agree to ending the game early to avoid hurt feelings, maybe take the opposing NPCs into the company.  Choosing this kind of force repeatedly is the same as winking at your opponent every time you bluff while playing poker.  Nothing good will come of this kind of mismatch.
« Last Edit: 24 February 2020, 01:44:38 by Red Pins »
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grimlock1

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #19 on: 24 February 2020, 13:57:58 »
Which book has rules for randomly generated damage? 
You, the OP, and the GM agree that you were able to bring the attackers under sustained indirect fire for X turns, after which the Arbelests are out of ammo and far enough out of position that they are out of the game.  Roll up random damage to his star, as well as your lance of spotters.  Whatever is left takes on what's left of your main force, which you indicated is in very sorry shape.
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truetanker

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #20 on: 24 February 2020, 14:11:08 »
Incendiary missiles with smoke scattered in for effect, heat him up so he is even slower... set fire to exist everything.

Follow up with standard LRM fire... you say you have 12 units with LRMs... use as directed, hit him hard.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Fear Factory

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #21 on: 24 February 2020, 18:14:55 »
You can still be a jerk if they both agree on it.  The question of whether they are a jerk or not depends on the knowledge base of both players.  If they both capably are aware of how a LAM works and using the full scope of the rules for them and anything else they plan on using then the OP isn't a jerk.  If the OP's knowledge of the rules exceeds his opponent's and they have no idea what they are getting into, then yes, I'd say they are being a jerk.

One side is using LAM's and the other is spamming ERPPC's. So, IMO, they both are doing it to each other. If it's fun for them, so be it. It's not for me.
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HyperionCormyr

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #22 on: 24 February 2020, 22:35:48 »
Fighting smartly with your assets in order to win isn't being a jerk- it's smart. Your "great guy" opponent is going to curbstomp you with Heavies and Assaults IF YOU LET HIM. Your force is designed to hit at range and stay at range. You should continue to do that until you have a number of his Mechs added to your forces as salvage.

Greatclub

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #23 on: 24 February 2020, 23:15:51 »
Your force is designed to hit at range and stay at range.

I'm not sure about that. Arbelest can fight at range, but unless you can indirect fire, break off, and reload, I think that he should just use terrain to zerg rush and use the no-minimum clan launchers as short range weapons with excellent to-hits.

grimlock1

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #24 on: 25 February 2020, 10:54:45 »
Fighting smartly with your assets in order to win isn't being a jerk- it's smart. Your "great guy" opponent is going to curbstomp you with Heavies and Assaults IF YOU LET HIM. Your force is designed to hit at range and stay at range. You should continue to do that until you have a number of his Mechs added to your forces as salvage.
Yeah, but the OPFOR is also built to fight at range.

Incendiary missiles with smoke scattered in for effect, heat him up so he is even slower... set fire to exist everything.

Follow up with standard LRM fire... you say you have 12 units with LRMs... use as directed, hit him hard.

TT
Incendiary LRMs aren't like Infernos.  All they do is give you a bonus to starting fires.


I'm not sure about that. Arbelest can fight at range, but unless you can indirect fire, break off, and reload, I think that he should just use terrain to zerg rush and use the no-minimum clan launchers as short range weapons with excellent to-hits.
I think the Zerg rush is a bad idea.  5/8 isn't fast enough generate significant TMMs, and 25 tonners won't last long against the weight of fire the opponent is bringing, ESPECIALLY if he tosses Zel.  Even staying at range is not in your favor.  You do have a high initial throw weight, but that will go away very quickly once you start taking direct fire from that Hellstar and Dire Wolf. Other than the CT, those Arbalests will loose a limb or torso to every hit. If your table allows Tac Ops Called Shots, and he uses Aim Low, every hit will leg an Arbalest. 

Although the more I think about it, a Zerg rush might have a chance...... A full company salvo has the potential of something like 400 points of damage. If you can land most of that, even a Dire Wolf will start to pull back.  The problem is that you will loose 3-4 mechs every turn.
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Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Syzyx

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #25 on: 25 February 2020, 16:34:33 »
ESPECIALLY if he tosses Zel.

Just to clarify, despite the equipment my opponent is bringing, he is not a Clanner. Just a rival merc operation. This campaign is actually out in the old RWR regions hunting down Goliath Scorpions of all things.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Force of Nature

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #26 on: 25 February 2020, 19:14:45 »
Do not do this battle! You risk losing a player that enjoys playing Battletech with you. Setting up a scenario against him and his prized slow moving assault mechs is not fair at all. Some people when they know the situation is set against them and they try their best against it and lose everything they have worked on/acquired for a long campaign, might just quit playing Battletech altogether after playing this scenario.

When I create a scenario, I consider playing both sides. Would you play the slow assault mechs that are forced to charge a hidden enemy that is raining down 24 LRM 10's indirectly every turn? Does that sound like having fun? Not at all to me.

He may flip the scenario on you once he realizes how badly the scenario is set against him too. He may simply run off the board edge he arrived on and concede the battle on turn 1, 2 or 3. Then nobody has any fun... I did this in my own campaign when a player set up a one sided battle against my lance. (Wolfhound, Hunchback (8MLs variant), Thunderbolt (removed the MGs and added heat sinks) and a standard Awesome) Once I figured out how unbalanced the scenario was against my units, I simply turned around and left the battlefield the direction I entered from. I told him to enjoy his empty victory and then explained how he would have felt if the roles were reversed. He came up with a much better scenario later on that was not one sided.

This scenario is not worth risking losing a player that enjoys playing assaults and possibly losing them for the campaign in a scenario set against him.

What you need to do is give him restrictions for a scenario. Like 12k BV but no assault mechs allowed or 15k BV with Light and medium mechs only. OR 18k BV, IS mechs only, 6 mechs minimum and no piloting/gunnery better than 3/4. I did these kinds of restrictions to my campaign players and yes, they grumbled initially, but then they realized the challenge of the restrictions and then looked forward to future restrictions because it took them out of their comfort zone... especially if they only played with assaults with high skilled pilots. Guess what? They really enjoyed playing battletech because in the campaign and the restrictions, I forced them to buy/acquire mechs in all weight classes as they wondered what the next scenario would be and what they would need to bring to it.

Players are the Militia city defense on some planet and have 8k BV to spend each on vehicles that are 30 tons or heavier only! Attackers are OPFOR and unknown quantity and quality. They must protect a building or some important person exiting the city. Vehicles that survive the scenario, the players keep. Battletech is very different with vehicles as they get immobilized and have less hit locations. Try that one...

I vote heavily against running your scenario... It is not worth losing a player that enjoys the game, especially playing a campaign.

Your call though...
« Last Edit: 25 February 2020, 19:17:34 by Force of Nature »

truetanker

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #27 on: 25 February 2020, 20:53:27 »
Incendiary LRMs aren't like Infernos.  All they do is give you a bonus to starting fires.


And? Why not start fires, it'll slow him down and provide some avenues he won't go...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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grimlock1

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #28 on: 25 February 2020, 21:20:22 »

And? Why not start fires, it'll slow him down and provide some avenues he won't go...

TT
Just throwing it out there because I know I got that wrong once.  :)
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Kovax

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Re: Would I be a jerk?
« Reply #29 on: 26 February 2020, 11:52:03 »
I'd concentrate indirect fire on one unit until it drops.  If you can separate his two remaining units enough from each other to engage one at a time (such as by using FASCAM mines from a single firer to delay his slower unit), preferably with some terrain in between, then zerg rush them one at a time, you might be able to put them down without losing everything.  5/8 isn't ideal, and you can expect to lose one or two units each turn, but kicking from all 6 directions in the same turn can completely change the course of the battle in one or two turns.

I see this as "being a jerk" with Indirect fired LRMs in response to "being a jerk" with a slow-moving wall of ERPPCs.  It's rules-lawyering by both sides, one extreme against the opposite, and if that's what you both enjoy, then it's all well and good.  Just don't pull that on someone who doesn't expect that kind of playstyle.

The officer who tried the "zerg rush" tactic failed in fluff, but our gaming group played it out.  We had to bring the OPFOR Wasps, Locusts, and Stingers onto the field in waves a few turns apart to avoid overrunning and curb-stomping the poor kids running the medium 'Mechs.  Yes, we lost, but mainly because we stretched it out and backed off from a few easy kills to make it marginally winnable for the new players.  Using Regular skills, movement modifiers become a major factor.  With Veteran skills, the odds of hitting go up considerably, and sheer firepower wins out.  I'm not certain that 5/8 is sufficiently fast, but if you've softened up the opponents with IDF before engaging, it might be enough.