BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Strategic Combat => Topic started by: epic on 31 May 2018, 11:06:28
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Okay, having recruited 5 people that are committed to a grueling schedule of grinding thru game turns, I have started a new ISaW grand campaign to test out the system. The Purist had asked me to post a turn by turn for previous games, but I had no good note-keeping kept (especially after a computer crash) to really give it flavour and both of the previous games also suffered from rules transitions that occurred mid-game.
This time around, we have access to IO, 1st and 2nd SW materials. Also, a better over-all grasp of the rules.
The goal is to have a 68 round game, from Jan 3025 until august 3030, with an attempt to recreate the 4th SW, or at least the conditions of the 4th SW.
As such, and keeping in line with my love for Rise and Decline of the 3rd Reich, I established some scenario rules for each of the major powers to push them towards canonical outcomes a bit. They were not overtly harsh, and open-ended enough that there could still be significant changes (such as a FC Invasion of the DC, rather than the CC). However, the goal was to have a working FC alliance, and a disfunctional Kapteyn agreement. Ultimately, the players agreed that this is a playtest to see if something similar to the 4th SW will work properly based on the current rules set.
Each of the 5 powers had specific goals set on a yearly basis that failure to adhere to would lose them either RP, or gain/lose a trait. So, for instance, the CC would have to engage in at least one successful Black Op before the end of 3025, or lose Superior Black Ops. Goals can't be revealed on the forum here (other than the above) to prevent players from seeing each others, though a few goals are mutual enough that the players are certain to realize that they each share a goal (will explain more as turns progress, or will become obvious). In this light, it's similar to the opening moves of some of the old Avalon Hill games, in that certain events must take place regardless of player moes.
Also, all 3 Periphery powers were NPC, to simplify matters. Pirates were tossed in using some home-brew, but will not have a major impact on the game.
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After an exhaustive 1st round set-up, I revealed a further item to all players.
All players had access to everyone else's spreadsheets and information for the 1st round, and NO unit movement other than spec ops teams movement was allowed 1st round. This decision was made to simplify set up (all units set up in canonical location rather than allowing players to deploy as they wish) and equalize the playing field. Why equalize? Well, 1, because I have actually already posted my spreadsheets on this site, so anyone doing their homework would already have access to them and 2. not everyone owns every housebook for 3025 like I do.
In game, the rationale for this is made by Comstar:
"A major leak occurs that reveals all of the in-house Comstar sourcebooks for the Successor States and Periphery is accidentally released in a mass HPG broadcast that was imprinted in a news broadcast. By the time Comstar notices, it is too late; the info has gone viral. The Successor States scramble to take advantage as well as umbrage to this serious security breach, and settlements abound as Comstar economically provides a cbill incentive to each Successor state to compensate for the issue. In a rare public broadcast, Primus Tiepolo apologizes for the breach and damage to relations to all the States of Humanity, and advises that those responsible (a renegade movement within the Order that was dedicated to the downfall of the Houses due to extremist viewpoints; heretofore referred to as terrorists) are being dealt with internally by ROM."
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Turn 1, January
Most nations consolidate, work on building spec ops teams and training centres (national resources that don't require maintenance)
. The DC begins building units early, a new CC created.
CC gets a black op completed
MoC attempted to steal industrial secrets but failed... and was undiscovered. The operation had a refund on it due to
early aborting.
The LC built a brand new Assault Mech Combat Command
the FWL faced a constitutional crisis, and their RP issues were correspondingly difficult (-15%)
Mass desertions and mutinies stun the Inner Sphere powers, other than the Capellan Confederation, where a single infantry regiment is caught in desertion... and the members
are subsequently executed. They serve as an example for the rest and the average Citizen simply nods their head in gratitude to the state for catching such traitors.
Hardest hit is the FWL, due to lingering resentment between the provinces and the federal government, as well as other issues stemming from the Civil War.
On Farandir, loyalist mercenary units Ramilie's Raiders work with local militia forces to bring to justice Kincaid's Slashers, whose troops either deserted or mutinied en masse. They handily defeat the merc unit, which is destroyed in the process. Salvage goes towards repairing what little damage the Raiders took.
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Turn 2 to post after I do a bunch of rolling... but it's mostly going to be a movement round, as the powers that be shuffle units everywhere they can to 1. prevent desertion/mutiny and 2. to fix the security breach of everyone knowing where all their units are.
Oh, and the spec ops have already started flying at each other too.
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Due to desertions/mutinies, several new merc units become available (small scale) for hiring, but no one snaps up any contracts... yet
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Turn 2
The Succession Wars continue. With positions all known of militaries, they scramble to re-deploy... or take advantage of neighbouring local weakness.
The Capellan Confederation focuses on training, and establishing more operatives in various states.
The Draconis Combine moves troops about internally, with 2 of the 3 Legions of Vega disappearing... a surprise attack on Fort Loudon against Lyran militia forces the
local government to surrender after a few short days of fighting. A raid on Quentin to disrupt production fails, however, and Brion's Legion withdraws after losing almost
a full battalion of mechs to little loss on the Federated side.
The Federated Suns begins a surprise attack on their neighbours, hoping to take advantage of them and keep the initiative in their wars. Launching raids on Tikonov,
St. Ives and Styk, they damage local industry for several months on all 3 worlds. Meanwhile, an invasion of Denbar crushes local Capellan resistance easily. However,
in what can only be described as a monumental error in command (Capellan interference in the communication chain is suspected), the Clovis Draconis March Militia attacks Ronel,
and gets embroiled in a hard fought engagement against elements of Kerr's Intruders and local miliia. Duke Sandoval of the Draconis March and Prince Davion exchange words,
both not understanding how this could occur, weakening the border with the Dragon... while the Davion forces on Ronel have the upper hand, the losses that the RCT has
sustained and the inability to disengages bodes ill for the unit.
Meanwhile, on the Draconis front, Davion forces seize the worlds of Paris and Huan. Local militia forces are easily trounced on Huan, but inflict impressive damage on
Davion forces on Paris, taking out a mech battalion, armour battalion and infantry regiment from the invading RCT. They fought to the last, and are given a posthumous
mention of merit by the Dragon himself for their courage, being only weekend warriors.
The Free Worlds League is not quiet. Janos Marik authorizes a raid on Gienah, though it has little effect. Losing 2 companies of mechs in the process, the raiders withdraw
after exceptional resistance from local militia. The 9th Regulan Hussars used in the fight then have several support units attached to the attack mutiny and/or desert,
disgusted with the Captain-General's antics. They head to Galatea with their equipment, starting up a brand new mercenary outfit.
Janos' other operation is much more successful, however, albeit with a number of embarrassments. An assault on Zaniah with 2 Free Worlds League Militia units, a mercenary
company and the Gryphons of the Silver Hawk Irregulars drops on world. The massively outnumbered local militia puts up a valiant defence, trying to take advantage of
extremely poor coordination between the FWLM units, but is simply overwhelmed by sheer numbers before they can. Lyran pundits raise concerns at this spearhead towards
Hesperus II...
Following in their Federated Suns' allies footsteps, Lyran forces attack a number of positions. On the FWL front, Lyran forces seize Colfax and Nockatunga. On Colfax,
they destroyed langendorff lancers after a hard fought attempt to make the Lyrans chase them… air recon determined their fate. In what could be a blunder, the 1st and 2nd
Narhal Raiders are tasked with assaulting Gallisteo; the local militia there makes a strong fight of it, and while inflicting little damage on the Raiders, they force them
to fight for every inch, with the attack still ongoing...
In a public statement, the Archon decides it is time to "deal with the pirate problem once and for all" and has Lyran periphery forces seize the worlds of Erewhon and
Lackhove. Finally, Lyran forces attack the Dragon itself! The 3rd Lyran Regulars seize the world of Mozirje from a surprised DCMS militia.
The Periphery states are quiet... too quiet.
Beyond that, spies abound everywhere. The FWL suspects a number of active spy networks are in their nation, especially after finding what remains of some Maskirovka
special ops teams near Andurien...
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As the 'brain', or lack thereof, behind the most recent re-write of intelligence ops, I'd love to hear feedback from the game on how you and the players are finding them.
W.
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Initial Feedback: Espionage works really well.
While initially, the thought that Espionage and finding out troop strengths on planets wasn't that useful as it's always a round behind, the fact that units are NOT in transit all the time or being shuffled elaborately means that it's often accurate. Also, we allow that it gives what the militia strength is too, which was what led to the FWL strike on Zaniah being what it was (an uncoordinated attack by 4 green units from 3 different worlds could have been disastrous otherwise). Even if the other player gets word that the espionage attempt happened to find out defences, they may very well be too late to get reinforcements there in time to make a difference.
Fragility of spec ops teams was mentioned; specifically, that it is incredibly unlikely that a spec ops team will ever achieve veteran status (as even a successful black op has a 1/3 chance of killing the team).
A thought that was passed on to me in regards to espionage was in regards to distance. Specifically, that a power that is weak in counterintelligence (in this game, currently the FWL has that as a trait) will get targeted by EVERYONE if they have a technological advantage at all, in order to steal secrets. We are entertaining a penalty for powers that don't border another power that also send operatives or operations to that nation.
Propaganda ops are very much dependent on a GM, but as we keep troop movements semi-secret (they have a percentage chance of being noticed), propaganda has a nice role in basically letting everyone THINK they know troop movements... as well as blaming other people for special ops. We also have something about false flagging (aka "pirates") that folks are looking into.
Sabotage ops are a useful way of "raiding" as well. I think they are about to become very much more important in the coming round.
Black ops also work pretty much as intended.
One point that was made so far is that the Successor States have enough rp to make important ops have a very good chance of success, while making defence against everything but Research attacks very hard. Research counter-intelligence seems to be prioritized for most powers, as it's quite easy to max out all 4 areas. Meanwhile, espionage and sabotage seem fairly easy to bypass defences - very difficult to predict targets.
One point; somehow having a mechanism to find out where spec ops teams of the enemy are located. We have said that it would fall under Espionage: Troop Location, but it's frustrating to have to do it for every spec ops team the other players have (especially as you have to guess how many they have). That makes some sense, but it does make it difficult to try and defend against.
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heh, and turn 3, starting the rolls for now.
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March 3025
The Capellan Confederation, damaged by Davion raids, nevertheless chooses to express their displeasure. First, another battalion of Kerr's Intruders land on Ronel; the local Clovis DMM was already in the process of falling back, however, and neither side chooses to engage in space as the Draconis March Militia leaves Capellan space.
Choosing to also regain the lost world of Denbar, the Blackwind Lancers land there to challenge the 1st Kittery Borderers, and while Davion forces manage to hold them off for some time via maneuverability, a series of strikes on their supplies as well as damage to their transports prevent their escape; in a couple sharp engagements the Lancers destroy the Borderers at the cost of a mech battalion (even after salvage).
Finally, the St Ives Lancers land on the world of Scituate, and easily destroy the weak Davion militia there; the Capellan flag flies on that world.
The Dragon awakens. Angry at the effrontery of the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth, several operations proceed. First, building more Ryuken regiments. Second, sending ISF personnel in on operations that steal valuable research data in the LC. An attempt to turn agents in Federated Suns space goes horribly wrong, however, and
the spec ops team is id'd and blown to pieces in a double-cross that Federated Suns media touts as an example of Kurita ineptitude...
Those same media outlets are strangely less critical of their own government upon hearing news of counter-attacks by the Dragon at Paris, Huan and Mozirje... and a raid by Wolf's Dragoons on Kesai IV, with additional raids targetting Marduk and Quentin. The Quentin and Marduk raids are repulsed. The Dragoon raid on Kesai IV is
also repulsed, again with no loss; Alpha and Beta regiments of the Dragoons falling back and inflicting minimal damage on at least 2 full Davion RCTs while taking little themselves. Gamma and Delta regiments attempt a landing at Huan... but facing heavy aero opposition, they withdraw before even arriving on world. The Dragon is displeased
but authorizes the withdrawal, knowing that the ships would never have even reached the world. Huan remains in Davion hands... but Paris is attacked and the Robinson Draconis March Militia ceases to exist as the 9th Benjamin Regulars crushes them utterly beneath them, avenging the loss of the world and the valiant sacrifice made by the militia.
Surprisingly, the 3rd Lyran Regulars fight a mobile campaign against the 17th Rasalhague Regulars on Mozirje and use local assets well to delay the Kurita counter-attack.
A few pitched battles have occurred that have shown no clear advantage on either side, though the loss of a light armour regiment on the Lyran side has reduced their ability to outmaneuver their enemy. So far, the battle there continues...
Federated Suns forces continue a heavy raiding pattern in Capellan space, successfully damaging Capellan industry at Nanking and Indicass. A raid on Ares fails, with minimal losses on both sides. The Draconis front stays quiet, as Federated troops and the quartermasters try to keep troops in supply...
Free Worlds League forces, facing supply shortages again as Parliament debates the implications of recent Lyran offensives, shuts down funding significantly. The 6th Orloff Grenadiers chase the Narhal Raiders off Gallisteo after crushing their aerospace support; the mercenaries manage to escape before the Grenadiers can finish the job
on their ground forces. The 5th Defenders of Andurien attempt yet another raid on Gienah, but are repulsed with heavy losses.
A number of different attempts at setting up local espionage operations fail by the Lyran Commonwealth, with several public executions of spies in the Draconis Combine and the Capellan Confederation, and incarceration in the Free World League. Loki operatives on Sabik cause massive damage to a local water supply, and thousands die
in the ensuing chaos... The Lyrans continue to claim border worlds, this time invading an old Rim Worlds system, All Dawn. Using the local militias as training operations with live fire exercises, the Lyrans begin the occupation of the world. Susie Morgaine Ryan raids Erewhon, attempting to drive off Lyran forces there... unable to stand up against an entire Lyran task force, she uses hit and run tactics to damage the local forces.
The Periphery states are otherwise quiet still... though there is evidence arising of special operations from Canopus occurring in FWL space, evidence is inconclusive.
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turn 4 is already in, just have to do the results for that. Happily, fewer combats other than a full siege at Mozirje looks like.
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April 3025
The CC does nothing noteworthy, simply working on rebuilding damaged infrastructure after repeated Davion raids, and consolidating their hold on Scituate.
The DC reinforces Mozirje, and begins a long-planned invasion of Galtor III. As part of the operation, Davion jumpships and transport networks at key hubs are damaged by special ops teams as part of the opening salvo of the operation...
The siege of Mozirje now involves the 17th Rasalhague Regulars, the 1st Night Stalkers and the St Cyr Heavy Assault Group. The Lyrans also bring in reinforcements, with the 24th Arcturan Guard landing to assist the beleaguered 3rd Lyran Regulars. Kurita dropships zip through the lines to re-supply the 17th without fail. The
over-confident 17th RR preps to destroy the 3rd Lyrans but walks into an ambush of a full assault tank regiment that had managed to remain hidden; between that pinning them and a Lyran Wall of Steel charge, the 17th loses 2 entire tank regiments and 2 mech battalions before they can fall back. Desperate to maintain the tempo of the attack,
the 17th engages in hit and run while awaiting reinforcements; the Lyrans are unable to catch up to them, but satisfy themselves with destroying a DCMS infantry regiment out of position as well. If not for DMCS air superiority, the 17th would be completely destroyed; turning it about, they also obliterate a few lyran infantry regiments out
of position and badly damage Lyran artillery support. Exhausted, both sides land troops to assist them... the Arcturan Guard destroy an entire 2 battalions of the Night Stalkers'
mechs, forming up to assist the enemy. The Lyrans generalship is far greater than their normally inferior doctrine allows for (engagement rolls that are just rocking it!) and even though the DCMS Troops wipe out a couple battalions of armour in response, the situation is starting to look grim. The St Cyr HAG support is minimal so far...
On Galtor III, the DMCS troops face a limited militia, reinforced by partially constructed fortifications. It quickly becomes apparent that reinforcements were due to arrive but had been delayed due to previous transportation problems now compounded by DEST strikes on the transport hubs. The 2nd and 14th Legions of Vega, far from home,
as well as the 11th Benjamin Regulars begin the occupation of the world, looking for what appears to be some type of Star League depot! Local Galtor forces inflict incredible damage on DMCS air forces that repeatedly bomb targets; the militia fights a battle that falls back to Fort Finger, which still is barely holding by the end of the month, after
2 weeks of carpet bombing and repeated artillery strikes, plus a failed infantry assault. The defenders, holding on by a shoe string, desperately hope for reinforcements...
Finally, the 5th Sword of Light begins a raid on Quentin, determined to show the "pathetic regulars and mercenaries how it's done!" Showing their skill, their light battalion drops on world, inflicts massive carnage on soft targets that the desperate 22nd Avalon Hussars try to prevent and fail at, and then leave. The death toll is in the 10s if not hundreds of thousands, the 5th CO smirks at the Davionist propaganda depicting the horrors of war they have inflicted. The Coordinator sends a personal congratulation to Tai-sho Conti...
Federated Suns forces move a bit, but otherwise desperately attempt to supply the troops they have after a number of previous operations. With the inability to reinforce Galtor III, the situation looks grim for the militia there.
FWL forces again experience confusion as Parliament continues to deny valuable funding to the Captain General.
The 10th Skye Rangers have an aborted raid on Stewart with the LC. The 1st Regiment of the 12th Star Guards raid Oliver successfully, badly damaging local infrastructure and making fools of the 18th Marik Militia.
The Periphery stays quiet... again. Rumours of their special operatives engaging in any activity are highly suspicious, and discounted by the Successor States.
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After the siege of Galtor and Mozirje is complete, I will start posting only every 3 or 4 turns in order to speed everything up a bit.
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Cap Con continues to recover from raiding.
the DC unleashes the Dragoons; striking 4 border worlds for supplies, with mixed success. Terrorist strikes paralyze the populace of Marduk from DEST agents.
On Mozirje, the siege is broken due to the fact that the Night Stalkers were unable to be supplied, nor the 17th Rasalhague Regulars. The exhausted 3rd Lyran Regulars
support an attack by the 24th Arcturan Guard that shatters the 17th, especially as the Blackhearts mercenary group arrives on world, and deploys to horrific success.
With the St Cyr Heavy Assault group covering their retreat, the remnants of the Night Stalkers absorb the few survivors of the 17th, and reinforcing Helmut's Hermits are waived off before a drop. Mozirje remains in LC hands with DCMS troops cursing their luck. The entire loss of a Regular regiment is shocking to them, that LC troops could actually defeat and outmaneuver the Dragon.
Meanwhile... on Galtor. DEST teams fail to block Davion forces from arriving, and the 2nd Robinson Rangers engage a nearby pirate point in a risky maneuver that pays off;
they then proceed to drop their assault mech regiment right on top of the 2nd Legion of Vega, which somehow manages to withdraw in good order from the avalanche drop,
taking and receiving minimal damage. With supplies unable to get through, and the 1st and 2nd Amphigean Light Assault Group arriving, the local DCMS commander decides
to withdraw from Galtor; his decision is fortuitous as the 1st Chisholm RCT also arrives in Galtor space and begins landing operations. A frenzied withdrawal costs
the DCMS another 2 infantry regiments covering the retreat but in the end, what could have been a disaster ended up costing the DCMS naught but a few infantry regiments.
The costly venture however, enrages the Coordinator, frustrated that both assaults launched on his foes failed...
Federated Suns forces rejoice at the victory at Galtor. A new series of raids strikes Capellan targets; this time, however, the Capellans are ready and most of the raids find little success, though some minor damage is inflicted on facilities at Ares. Redfield's Renegades express extreme frustration at their target, as it was heavily defended
compared to what their contract and intell had provided... a breach report is duly filed with Comstar. Only the 9th Illician Rangers really experience a good raid, and are rewarded for their efforts; they steal the entire supply shipment for Stapleton's Iron Hand.
Federated raids on Draconis Combine facilities at Al Nair are similarly unsuccessful, though losses are far less.
FWL has little occur other than yet another failed raid into Lyran space.
LC had the Stealthy Tigers raid Thermopolis. Loki agents also sabotage facilities at Kalidasa and Savannah.
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Epic, this is not quite what I was looking for in requestiing your view on how the game played but carry on.
Note that there is no rule for hunting Spec Ops teams. They will die off on their own and their use will likely settle down substatially and be used only when truly needed to support military ops. Otherwise you will soon be running around with very green and green teams.
Perhaps you could explain how Traits and Flaws are effecting your game (we could take the rules topic by topic)?
Apologies up front as I am experiencing connection issues here on the other side of planet earth so my attendance may be spotty.
Cheers
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Superior Combat Doctrine is what keeps the Fed Suns alive. My goodness, even with low amounts of RP to spend, it allows the Fed Suns to be able to punch way above weight.
As a trait, it's particularly powerful. Even when a unit was out of supply, this trait allowed the unit to keep fighting.
Now that we have tried out the beginning of a grand campaign like this, all the traits are far more magnified than playing a local brush fire war has been such as the Ronin War or the Andurien Secession.
Parliamentary Chaos particularly impacts the ability of the FWL in making decisions on fighting/defending in a given turn.
As you had stated in a previous thread, mercs are by far the best units to use for raiding. They also make it very convenient to gain xp... by engaging in live fire exercises with the enemy. This was not the use that mercs had in the previous 2 brush fire fights we had, so it's been a learning experience. It also has been demonstrated to my satisfaction that yeah, a merc unit against a house unit just loses, period. Heck, the Narhal's Raiders couldn't even overcome a planetary militia before reinforcements arrived.
I would have to say that the weakest link by far in a traditional set up of Kapteyn vs FC is still the Capellan Confederation. Raiding campaigns by the Federated Suns have continuously crippled their ability to produce RP, as more than half of all their best revenue producing worlds are within range of Fed Suns raids. Even garrisoning those worlds with better troops has only marginally changed this.
The DC and LC are RP super powers between them. Whether State Run or Merchant King, after trade is accounted for, both have added MANY Combat Commands with no sign of stopping; it's getting a bit scary to see where they're going to be placing all these new mech units. Neither has to worry about their expenditures on a given turn and both can support large investments in Intelligence ops, research or invasions. The FWL has this on a good turn sometimes too.
That's a quick analysis so far, in a Grand Campaign sense. Player feedback to follow.
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One Year of ISaW Play
Having now completed just shy of 15 months of game play (Apr 3019 – Jun 3020) here are some observations, beginning with Traits and Flaws. With a couple of notable exception we stuck with the IO traits while adding the new Abilities/Flaws found in 2nd SW regarding Tech Development and Espionage.
Capella Confederation – The “State Run” trait help Laio with income but “Closed State” trait hurt the House with Morale Checks, Initiative and, the two traits together, make Tech DPs 35% more expensive. This is not as bad it as it may seem as the Economy is robust enough and can easily afford the military’s supply costs. This means more technology investments as well as expanding the military or replacing losses if done carefully. “Superior Black Ops” make sabotage missions easier and can impact the Confederations neighbour’s economies, further strengthening the CC position. Poison pill makes the absorption of original planets more difficult by a large margin and should not be underestimated. Taking a world with minor industry can take 8 months (+ a D6 -2 in extra months) to pacify,… provided the CC does not return with a force large enough to ‘reset’ the clock. So far our CC has only got into trouble by attempting to launch a major invasion of the FS without a supporting assault by the DC. We suspect that if the DC and CC can coordinate an attack with as little as 50% of their individual commands the FS will not be able to stop them.
Draconis Combine – “State Run” Economy is again a major bonus to the RP totals and makes the Combine a major economic power second only to the LC, even if it hurts initiative. State Run also applies a minor hit to DPs in research. Despite these draw backs the DC has managed to fight two defensive campaigns against its neighbours, fighting one to a draw without collapsing. The “Fanatic Offense” and “Fanatic Defence” traits are definitely a mixed blessing. The bonus to morale checks is welcome but the increased losses, especially against the Federated Suns (+20% damage) can hasten the mauling, if not the outright destruction of entire commands in an already brutal combat system.
Federated Suns – Strange as it may seem the FS gains no significant economic benefit to being a more “Open State” than the other realms. In fact, being a “Decentralized State” it receives a -20% penalty, which reduces its economy to just slightly above the level of the Capellan Confederation but with far higher operating costs. Open State also nullifies the bonus received under “Superior Counter-Intelligence”. The large military is largely unsustainable and heavy combat losses are welcome economic relief except for the fact that the FSs two neighbours can replace losses or even expand their militaries while the Federated Suns cannot. This lack of funds also impacts Intel and spec ops (almost eliminating them), further eroding the Sun's ability to sustain a conflict. The FS does well to maintain its starting strength by remaining on the defensive with offensive operations severely hampered by lack of RPs and therefore very narrow in focus. In the end, to avoid an FS bankruptcy we adopted the suggestion of our DC player who suggested +10% for “Booming Economy” considering the late SW ‘renaissance’ period we are in. We also added “Brightest Minds” operating at NAIS to help stretch the RPs the FS does receive.
Free Worlds League – “Parliamentary Chaos” lives up to its name and the element of chance introduced by the dice roll can make long term planning a bit of a guess. A few RPs can be recouped by a good roll of the die for supplies. “Merchant Kings” is cancelled by “Decentralized State” so no joy there. “Supply Problems” adds +1 to supply costs for all commands which isn’t too bad if the size of the military is kept reasonable. Our FWL player opted for smaller commands, which seems a wise move as it helps control costs. “Inferior Black Ops” and the +1 to the TN makes Spec Ops a challenge and an aspect of the game that needs to be handled with care by the FWL (choice targets, carefully ‘developed’). Like the other powers, a focus on ‘counter-intelligence’ avoids the problem and is enough to hold off Spec Ops and Intel from foreign threats.
In 15 months our League player has seen +5% once, +10% once, -5% three times, -10% seven times and -15% three times. The result is one frustrated “Captain-General”.
Lyran Commonwealth – “Merchant Kings” combined with a large factory base and nearly 430 ‘other’ worlds makes for a very powerful Lyran Commonwealth. Losses are replaced more easily and more new commands can be built than by other Houses. Or, as in our case, the LC simply started adding new factories (with forts) to further extend their economic lead (7 new minor ind. In 15 months). Once trade is added to the Merchant King trait the LC easily exceed 2400 new RPs per month. The “Flawed Doctrine” flaw does impact combat but when fighting the DC under the effects of Fanatical Offence/Defence the -10% damage for Flawed Doctrine is nullified. The effects are further reduced if the command is veteran or better. Like the DC the LC can fight major campaigns and replace losses on more than one front at a time.
“Superior Black Ops” help keep the DC and FWL (in particular) on their toes guarding transport routes and infrastructure.
GM Additions
As we based the at start forces on the 3025 OoB found in the original House source books the FWL was also compelled to deploy ‘provincial’ commands that are restricted in what they can do and how many losses they can suffer before being recalled. The Anduriens can only deploy one command more than one jump from the duchy’s borders,... These commands are large and powerful. Regulus must retain two commands at home and most of the other provinces retain one or two commands. The commands allowed to freely work with federal commands are also limited to 50% (opposition provinces) or 75% (pro-Marik) casualties before recall for rebuilding. The rebuilding must be done within the borders of the province if a replacement command is to be sent forward. The “Captain-General” can negotiate with the GM for additional support in times of emergency (the Anton Marik rebellion of 3015 for example) but there is a cost for these extra commands (priority on replacement, locating future new factories, etc.).
The three minor periphery states are GM run and are limited in what they can and cannot do. They exist to pose mild irritants to House periphery borders with the odd raid or by Spec Ops teams looking out for a chance to steal tech. Their money is very limited, even more so after 2nd SW rules are added, so raids are limited and come with a risk of House retaliation.
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One of the issues in the original design was trying to replicate "historical" situations, which need not be balanced.
(Side note: a classic old wargame by Avalon Hill, called "France: 1940". With a reasonable player, it's entirely possible for the French player to see off the Germans and invade in their turn. In order to replicate the historical outcome, one has to impose on the French player the "Idiot's Game" rules - things like no stacking units, no combined attacks, no deploying near the Ardennes or the Maginot Line, etc.)
I am surprised that the FedSuns are weaker economically that "historically" - although how much of that perception may be Davionista propaganda, I can't tell ;) The Feds were never "merchant princes", and mobilising for the 'real' 4th SW gutted their economy due to diversion of merchant shipping to support the military.
It is (and was) impossible to do repeated full playtests on ISaW, even more so to have the designers do so - we don't see our own blind spots. So I'm really appreciating the feedback.
Play on!
W. O0
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Could the FS have survived with Inferior Doctrine during the 1st SW then? I ask this because in the description for Inferior Doctrine it gives the FS of that era as an example, yet strangely enough it is not listed for the FS in the 1st SW scenario faction abilities.
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Feedback so far from players is:
Fed Suns: Superior Combat Doctrine provides the FS with the ability to fend off invasions easily. The damage inflicted via militia is great, and leaves any counter-offensive easy. The lack of economy means that the FS must scrounge for RP wherever possible, and the best way to do it is by taking it from the enemy, while also removing their ability to produce. This was first done to the Capellans, but supply raids by merc forces on both borders makes it easy enough. The Brightest Minds trait was also given to them, and it has sped research. Morale bonuses again on the defence prevent easy attacks on the FS, but the lack of RP mean that it is difficult to mount offensives (not to mention the overall lack of JS; set up was given to have a slightly less than average amount of JS for House units in the FS). RP Juggling is a fact of life in the FS; supplying troops only in areas where I know they won't be attacked, while making sure to engage in sustained neglect.
Capellan Confederation: State Run is all that is keeping me alive (quotes the CC player). Without the bonus RP, I'd be dead in the water. If the FWL also raided/attacked me, the CC would be dead. Every single factory world in the CC is within raiding distance of the FWL and FS; if both sides simply engaged in economic warfare, the CC would lose funding for most of their troops. Due to the lack of RP, and research penalties for closed state and State Run, research is just not something progressing at any level of speed. At least the morale penalties against desertion mean that nothing occurs there.
DC player feedback was: DC is by far the easiest power to play. Strategic depth, lots of RP, and fanatical offense and defence allow lots of flexibility to play style. Oddly, I can afford to spend more on research than anyone else, I think other than the LC (even with the slight penalty from State Run), and I have better units to start with as well. Also, the standard DC combat command having 3 aero is a major advantage. Almost every battle the DC has engaged in, the air has either been what has helped win the battle, or saved a unit from utter destruction.
Haven't had responses from the LC or FWL yet.
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I noted you mentioned all Capellan factories are within range of raids. You may wish to review the rules section in more detail. Commands have only four orders points to use -
- One orders point is required for the raid mission,
- One move order would be needed to move to an ajacent hex
- One move order required to close with the planet.
Assuming one order point is not required for an attack this would limit raids to just two hexes from the Command's base.
Also review the tables on page 359. The +4 from pirate point use only applies to the insertion table only and not the Raid Success table. Most positive modifiers amount to only +1 or +2, making results "iffy". Raids, quick method or detailed, are dangerous affairs and, in our experience, fail as often as they succeed. They are also not always very lucrative, supply costs for a raid will equal 22RP. We also noted that while a very successful raid might net 20 RP from an "other" planet, the loot represents stealing anything of value and adding it to the attacker's RP pool. However, there is nothing in the rule that reduces the target RP total for the following month. This makes sense as a planet cannot be looted for more than it produces (you cannot steal next month's production before it is produced).
That's our interpretation of the rules at any rate. The rules are a bit thin and rely heavily on "common sense" approaches to their application. We should also be careful where rules are thin and rely on the rules as written to fill in the blanks for these grey areas.
To be honest, something as complex as advSBF, Scaled SBF, ACS and ISaW should almost have a book of their own but I understand why the publisher went the way they did. Perhaps a v. 2 might be possible in the future if/once game play reviews become more common.
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One of the issues in the original design was trying to replicate "historical" situations, which need not be balanced.
(Side note: a classic old wargame by Avalon Hill, called "France: 1940". With a reasonable player, it's entirely possible for the French player to see off the Germans and invade in their turn. In order to replicate the historical outcome, one has to impose on the French player the "Idiot's Game" rules - things like no stacking units, no combined attacks, no deploying near the Ardennes or the Maginot Line, etc.)
I am surprised that the FedSuns are weaker economically that "historically" - although how much of that perception may be Davionista propaganda, I can't tell ;) The Feds were never "merchant princes", and mobilising for the 'real' 4th SW gutted their economy due to diversion of merchant shipping to support the military.
It is (and was) impossible to do repeated full playtests on ISaW, even more so to have the designers do so - we don't see our own blind spots. So I'm really appreciating the feedback.
My Gawd,....France 1940 was the first war game I ever played. A friend had a copy way back in 1974 and I have never stoppd war gaming since then. I've played some monsters in my day but the Avalon Hill games were always my favourites.
I suspected play testing may have been an issue as we examined the rules throughout late 2016 before making the transition to the full game last September. As ACS and ISaW are clearly war games one can see where they tried split the difference between BT and grand strategy. Some rules are generally too complex/cumbersome for a grand campaign but these can be set aside. Biggest issue with the rules is they need more depth. There are just too many places in the 20 odd pages of rules where players need to guess what is meant. Experience with war gaming might help the old hands but folks less familiar with the genre may end up with unrealistic solutions to the numerous gaps.
Perhaps we can fill these gaps as we go along with this discussion. :)
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Could the FS have survived with Inferior Doctrine during the 1st SW then? I ask this because in the description for Inferior Doctrine it gives the FS of that era as an example, yet strangely enough it is not listed for the FS in the 1st SW scenario faction abilities.
That would depend on the expenses. If the economy uses 90% of its RP just for basic supply the DC might not stop until they reach Tortuga. As territory is lost the cash problem becomes worse. A combined DC/CC offensive might be able to topple the FS and still hold off the FWL and LC. Much would depend on how much strength the DC/CC alliance would need to leave behind to cover the invasion.
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Very cool recap of the game so far. I was wondering what system you were using to resolve combat? Are you using ACS?
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That would depend on the expenses. If the economy uses 90% of its RP just for basic supply the DC might not stop until they reach Tortuga. As territory is lost the cash problem becomes worse. A combined DC/CC offensive might be able to topple the FS and still hold off the FWL and LC. Much would depend on how much strength the DC/CC alliance wod need to leave behind to cover the invasion.
I thought the DC was carving through the FS in the 1st SW, right up until Minoru Kurita got shot.
One big thing I think that is missing from the system is the effects of individual major political figures, and how their exploits or deaths can throw a wrench into the cold economics of the raw RP numbers.
Having the leader of a House on the front lines might provide bonuses but risk loss. Loss might then result perhaps in temporary paralysis until the new leader settles in, and the successor might have different personality (and bonuses) compared to their predecessor.
Perhaps aside from combat bonuses, certain leaders might be more inspirational or economically focused, leading to some extra RP squeezed out. For the FWL, perhaps a bonus (or penalty) to Parliamentary Chaos rolls, representing greater or lesser ability to secure funding.
I want the full House Lord experience
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I noted you mentioned all Capellan factories are within range of raids. You may wish to review the rules section in more detail. Commands have only four orders points to use -
- One orders point is required for the raid mission,
- One move order would be needed to move to an ajacent hex
- One move order required to close with the planet.
Assuming one order point is not required for an attack this would limit raids to just two hexes from the Command's base.
Also review the tables on page 359. The +4 from pirate point use only applies to the insertion table only and not the Raid Success table. Most positive modifiers amount to only +1 or +2, making results "iffy". Raids, quick method or detailed, are dangerous affairs and, in our experience, fail as often as they succeed. They are also not always very lucrative, supply costs for a raid will equal 22RP. We also noted that at while a very successful raid might net 20 RP from an "other" planet, the loot represents stealing anything of value and adding it to the attacker's RP pool. However, there is nothing in the rule that reduces the target RP total for the following month. This makes sense as a planet cannot be looted for more than it produces (you cannot steal next production before it is produced).
That's our interpretation of the rules at any rate. The rules are a bit thin and rely heavily on "common sense" approaches to their application. We should also be careful where rules are thin and rely on the rules as written to fill in the blanks for these grey areas.
To be honest, something as complex as advSBF, Scaled SBF, ACS and ISaW should almost have a book of their own but I understand why the publisher went the way they did. Perhaps a v. 2 might be possible in the future if/once game play reviews become more common.
Yup. Well aware of the movement rules.
St. Ives, Tikonov, Styk, Indicass, Ares, Grand Base, Sarna and Nanking are all within 2 of the FS border. If the FWL is hostile in 3025, every hex of the CC that I can see is within 2 hexes of a hostile border.
Also aware of the insertion rules. Choosing to use even Regular units with light assets gives a +1, and making them veteran brings it to a +2. That means an average roll gives a raid success. Adding pirate points almost guarantees a success on the insertion roll in the meantime.
Assuming the CC starts garrisoning these worlds with good units reduces this, of course. However, the raid success is based on "average" experience of the defending units, which means that the few elite/veteran units that garrison these worlds if they don't share the garrison with Regulars will end up being overwhelmed by a full assault instead. But if they share the garrison, then their experience is watered down in regards to raid results.
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Very cool recap of the game so far. I was wondering what system you were using to resolve combat? Are you using ACS?
ACS for combat. Simplified Raid system for raids, however.
Headhunting is brutal sometimes, btw. If you want to destroy a unit, send in forces to headhunt. It may damage the unit that is attacking, but it KILLS the unit you are assaulting if you have good intell.
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I don't know ISaW rules, and I'm only understanding half of what you're saying, but even still I'm loving this thread on principle. Thanks for the AAR.
(Side note: a classic old wargame by Avalon Hill, called "France: 1940". With a reasonable player, it's entirely possible for the French player to see off the Germans and invade in their turn. In order to replicate the historical outcome, one has to impose on the French player the "Idiot's Game" rules - things like no stacking units, no combined attacks, no deploying near the Ardennes or the Maginot Line, etc.)
Side side note: I'm reading an excellent alt-hist story right now where the French are slightly less stupid in 1940 (https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-blunted-sickle.287285/), and it's interesting to see what changes.
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I thought the DC was carving through the FS in the 1st SW, right up until Minoru Kurita got shot....<snip>.... Iwant the full House Lord experience
Well, according to First Succession War they were. The fiction then introduced the Kentares Massacre and the authors had plot device to save the Suns. That said, trying to superimpose individual leaders into a game of grand strategy is open to lots of "gamey" tactics. Leadership abilities are in the game but are based on the force commander's rating and a force commander's loss could have serious impact on that battle, the effect is, correctly in my view, purely local and temporary. If the game was more along the scale of Napoleonic's there might be scope for leadership loss impacts on a battlefield scale but I doubt it would really work at the "galactic" level.
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....Assuming the CC starts garrisoning these worlds with good units reduces this, of course. However, the raid success is based on "average" experience of the defending units, which means that the few elite/veteran units that garrison these worlds if they don't share the garrison with Regulars will end up being overwhelmed by a full assault instead. But if they share the garrison, then their experience is watered down in regards to raid results.
I understand what you are saying but the average raid against an industrial target (minor in this example) will usually cost the raider more than the raided. :))
Take your example of a veteran raiding force of two light Mech companies. Assuming they don't vanish in a pirate point accident they will likely land safely facing equal PV defenders drawn from tanks and infantry, on a lucky planet maybe a company of Mechs plus tanks.
If using the quick method the plus two for light raiders and veterans and an average die roll will net 50% losses to the attacking force and a roll on the raid results table with a -2 modifier. An average dr here nets a final result of 3 and 25% of the output (6RP on our mythical minor ind. centre). Compare this bounty to the 22RP it costs to provide combat supply to the merc or equal size small house unit. As you can see the costs greatly out weigh the benefit of the raid other than to offset the final balance of RPs by month end. That can be a justification in itself but for the fickleness of the dice. ;)
Dice being dice they will just as often take as much as they give and we have learned that raids are double edged swords and used with care, especially by the cash poor CC and FS.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Cheers.
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ACS for combat. Simplified Raid system for raids, however.
Headhunting is brutal sometimes, btw. If you want to destroy a unit, send in forces to headhunt. It may damage the unit that is attacking, but it KILLS the unit you are assaulting if you have good intell.
This is very interesting as your group is having the exact opposite results with headhunting that ours has had. Our group has stopped using hh entirely as the results are so poor. For example, the attacker is limited in what he may bring to the battle but the defender can bring the entire team. By in large the bonuses the attacker may choose from makes scoring hits harder (but hits do hurt, most assuredly) while the defender can operate normally. The hunting command also is automatically unsupplied the next turn.
In our 3rd Succession War CG, headhunting and "infrastructure destruction" have been replaced with a simple "invasion" with superior numbers aimed at destroying commands if not conquering the planet. In some cases the planet ends up falling in any case, at least until the defender mounts a counterattack. About the only "Battles" we see now are naval battles between aerospace forces.
Very interesting observations. Have your guy's sent you any other thought on traits and flaws?
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I understand what you are saying but the average raid against an industrial target (minor in this example) will usually cost the raider more than the raided. :))
Take your example of a veteran raiding force of two light Mech companies. Assuming they don't vanish in a pirate point accident they will likely land safely facing equal PV defenders drawn from tanks and infantry, on a lucky planet maybe a company of Mechs plus tanks.
If using the quick method the plus two from and an average die roll will net 50% losses to the attacking force and a roll on the raid results table with a -2 modifier. An average dr here nets a final result of 3 and 25% of the output (6RP on our mythical minor ind. centre). Compare this bounty to the 22RP it costs to provide combat supply to the merc or equal size small house unit. As you can see the costs greatly out weigh the benefit of the raid other than to offset the final balance of RPs by month end. That can be a justification in itself but for the fickleness of the dice. ;)
Dice being dice they will just as often take as much as they give and we have learned that raids are double edged swords and used with care, especially by the cash poor CC and FS.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Cheers.
Weird. For us, disruption raids and industrial raids are the way to go. A successful pair of those raids, with a result of 1 on the success table destroys the ability to generate income (and/or produce new units) for 3 turns. That means that a single raid on a major removes 120 rp (3*40) plus interest on that 120 over the span of the turns. In Tikonov's or Capella's case, it's even worse.
That's for the low cost of supplying the merc unit for combat. Even if they fail the first time, and succeed the second time with a minimal result, they're ahead of the game.
Don't get me wrong; a disruption/supply raid is harder to pull off. Better used by light elite units vs green units, that sweet result of 3 or higher (stealing all the combat supply costs of all defending units on world) is a difficult achievement, but if it works, is worth every penny. It also is useful for suicide units for the extra bonus if you really want to cripple the other players supplies on a major garrison world.
So far, for our game, raiding has been a devastating tactic against the CC. Doesn't work as well against everyone else precisely because most of their major worlds are farther in.
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I see what you mean regarding the disruption raid but has your Capellan used cash to reduce the effect of the time the factories are offline?
Two standard commands with one light, two medium and a heavy A/S wing also gives a -2 to the raid. If you use the aerospace garrison PV rules planets are more easily able to defend themselves as well. The Capellans could have 250PV of fighters available on a major. Then the task become one of first weakening the garrison before raids can be as effective as yours been, which I would suggest are too effective if A/S garrisons are not in use.
Our Lyrans were the first to deploy Patrol Commands - one light regiment and two A/S wings. This allows for smaller number of commands to support garrisons and adds another -2 to the raid success dr for a total of -4.
We use the garrison table on page 368 but add in the allowed A/S PV. This makes planets tougher opponents and aerospace additions make sense. We figured a world with 5 infantry regiments 4 tank battalions and 2 Mech battalions but no fighters did not make sense, especially since a fixed garrison has better infrastructure to maintain them than a mobile command or naval force.
((Damn but do I hate Android devices. I can't wait to get back to Canada to get my surface pro wireless drivers reinstalled. This auto-correct is driving me nuts. 8) ))
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I see what you mean regarding the disruption raid but has your Capellan used cash to reduce the effect of the time the factories are offline?
Two standard commands with one light, two medium and a heavy A/S wing also gives a -2 to the raid. If you use the aerospace garrison PV rules planets are more easily able to defend themselves as well. The Capellans could have 250PV of fighters available on a major. Then the task become one first weakening the garrison before raids can be as effective as yours been, which I would suggest are too effective if A/S garrisons are not in use.
Our Lyrans were the first to deploy Patrol Commands - one light regiment and two A/S wings. This allows for smaller number of commands to support garrisons and adds another -2 to the raid success dr for a total of -4.
We use the garrison table on page 368 but add in the allowed A/S PV. This makes planets tougher opponents and aerospace additions make sense. We figured a world with 5 infantry regiments 4 tank battalions and 2 Mech battalions but no fighters did not make sense, especially since a fixed garrison has better infrastructure to maintain them than a mobile command or naval force.
((Damn but do I hate Android devices. I can't wait to get back to Canada to get my surface pro wireless drivers reinstalled. This auto-correct is driving me nuts. 8) ))
LOL. also typing from Android, but still in Canada at least. :)
We have not been using the aero garrisons, but using the advanced garrisons table without aero. Not going to change it mid-stream, but is probably what will be done next time. I'm divided on the issue; on one hand, I hear you; on the other, adding air to garrisons (while realistic) makes them too close to being able to stand up to a full combat command with a good roll (and thereby reduces mercs in usefulness again)
As for the Capellans no using cash, that's to bring factories back online; it has nothing to do with the lost income, which stays offline until infrastructure repaired. In our case, that has meant little anyways; as Sian and Capella have been untouched by raids, they are where new units are being produced currently. It's just there is so little RP to actually produce.
Now. That being said; all players are being hyper paranoid about their counterintelligence; security RP has been spent on large scales for several categories. That really helped the FWL this last round, incidentally, as 3 out of 4 sabotage efforts failed. So... RP expenditure seems to differ between our two games a lot.
As for creating Patrol Commands; that one is a work in progress. Currently, what I am doing is giving a small discount on Combat Commands IF the player uses the standard combat command their faction uses. It's not much - 10% off - but it's to highlight the importance of the standard formation to that faction. One faction HAS been building commands that are smaller (not saying who as of yet as none have been revealed) and in the end, I don't think the discount is too restrictive to players who want to customize.
Counter-question; when a raid occurs, if Combat Commands are present, do you designate one of the Combat Commands as defender, and thus pay combat supply (and gain x p)? We are saying yes, if the defender wants x p, but can also let the militia handle it. That's also cost the CC some RP, admittedly (but gained some units some valuable x p).
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This is very interesting as your group is having the exact opposite results with headhunting that ours has had. Our group has stopped using hh entirely as the results are so poor. For example, the attacker is limited in what he may bring to the battle but the defender can bring the entire team. By in large the bonuses the attacker may choose from makes scoring hits harder (but hits do hurt, most assuredly) while the defender can operate normally. The hunting command also is automatically unsupplied the next turn.
In our 3rd Succession War CG, headhunting and "infrastructure destruction" have been replaced with a simple "invasion" with superior numbers aimed at destroying commands if not conquering the planet. In some cases the planet ends up falling in any case, at least until the defender mounts a counterattack. About the only "Battles" we see now are naval battles between aerospace forces.
Very interesting observations. Have your guy's sent you any other thought on traits and flaws?
We haven't tried infrastucture destruction either; for the 3rd SW, it doesn't seem as worth it. Maybe in the 1st or 2nd?
As for headhunting, however; the option here was used both times by DC units that basically fit the entire description, leaving their infantry and arty behind. All light/med mechs and vees, so these were combat commands basically designed for headhunting. Then, sacrificing 5% of their armour for double that of damage meant that they were instantly doing a lot of damage; with the goal of making a combat going 5 rounds, so that each round they could use it, to the max of 25/50. By controlling the engagement to be at medium or long (and thus fairly hard to hit with a high tmm), they inflict maximum damage... and then closed for the kill. That's how the Robinson Draconis March Militia bought it, and another Draconis March Militia withdrew in the face of such tactics.
It's not as certain whether this tactic would work as well against an elite unit but definitely worked against Regulars and/or Green.
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Ah. My FWL player provides feedback:
"Being the Captain-General is an exercise in frustration. Every round, hoping that you have Parliament's support. Knowing that if you do, you can launch invasions. Knowing that if you over-commit, and next month you lose their support, you may not be able to afford to combat supply your invasion. Every round, I may be as wealthy as the Lyrans, or only slightly wealthier than the Feddies. Parliamentary Chaos rules the actions of the FWL to a degree I don't think any other faction experiences.
The GM has also engaged rules for provincial forces - first, a modifier for a discount if building a provincial force, and an increased cost for Federal forces for building. It makes the loss of federal units very dear, but makes provincial forces useful garrisons in trouble areas. I hate him for that."
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Working on turn 6 coming up. Will do turn 6- 8 post by weekend hopefully.
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We have not been using the aero garrisons, but using the advanced garrisons table without aero. Not going to change it mid-stream, but is probably what will be done next time. I'm divided on the issue; on one hand, I hear you; on the other, adding air to garrisons (while realistic) makes them too close to being able to stand up to a full combat command with a good roll (and thereby reduces mercs in usefulness again)
Yet ACS/ISaW is a grand strategy game and not really a vehicle for mercenary raids. The system appears to be designed to require players to wear down defences before effective raids can be conducted. In my view this makes perfect sense. Raiders should not stand much of a chance against intact defences. Consider the fact the lack of aerospace garrisons open such imposing locations such as Tikonov, a Regional Capital and major industrial centre to complete shutdown from just two light companies.
As for the Capellans no using cash, that's to bring factories back online, it has nothing to do with lost income, which stays offline until infrastructure is repaired. In our case that has meant little anyways as Sian and Capella have been untouched by raids, they are where new units are being produced currently. It's just there is so little RP to actually produce.
This the primary reason we rarely use the quick resolution method for raids as it quite often unbalances the raid mechanics severely in favour of the attacker (perhaps a play test issue). We normally use adv SBF where the atttacker can bring along his two combat teams (Max four Units as per the SBF formation rules) plus the two a/s squadrons. The battles can be played out in a couple of hours and give a more balanced outcome. This is particularly true of supply and disruption raids. In a later post I will provide a recent example of McCarron's Arm'd Cav versus the garrison of Shaunavon.
Now, that being said, all layers are being hyper paranoid about their counterintelligence...
Oh, I don't know.... In June 3020 Liao spent 89 RP on CI, 47 on Espionage and 74 on spec ops. The DC 110/46/154, FS109/27/44, FWL 144/35/93, LC 142/27/127
Perhaps we are just going harder after planetary conquest.
Regarding Patrol Commands, I try to avoid telling players how to organize their armies unless we discover something gamey. When I saw the first one I thought it an elegant solution to a tricky problem (unit size, mission and supply). As these commands can move and still Patrol, knocking them out becomes another part of the strategy to wear out defences before the raiders can get in. Naval commands can play a role here as well.
Counter-question, when a raid occurs, if Combat Commands are present,...
The defender is free to chose his forces from anyone available on the planet. This is another reason we like to use detailed combat resolution. As the insertion table can give the defender anything from .5 to1.5 times the pv of the attacker, it makes for interesting times. We agreed that for a battalion to gain experience it must have at least one Lance in the battle (yes, we track experience by the battalion, the bookeeping is not that difficult). And yes, if even a single Lance is used from the CC it triggers combat supply but this can be worth the experience gain for green troops. :thumbsup:
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hmmm. yeah, difference then. the average CI for the players in my group is around 150 per turn, esp is about the same. Spec ops depends on the availability of teams, seems to be about 80ish a round.
As for conquest vs raiding, I would beg to differ; this is the 3rd SW, the height of raiding period. After this (and the aim of this game) is the 4th SW and whether something close to that can result. The strategic game should be able to capture that feel, and so far, I"m not disappointed.
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Yes, the late 3rd SW saw plenty of raids but not with the effects the campaign game can give. :o
From what I can see the garrison rules are there to make raids difficult but even a final Dr of 1 or less shuts entire planets down. I don't think you will find that in any of the fiction.
We also have to take into account what Worktroll said,...the game is not meant to replicate actual Uni lore.
Each to their own of course. We are using the rules as written for an "alt 3rd SW", not the actual 3rd SW (which is not possible).
When I have some time tomorrow I will post the raid results using the detailed combat system. Then I would like to move the discussion into the next phase of the rules to see how your group have interpreted them.
Very good discussion so far. Thanks for your views.
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Sounds good to me. I should say that large scale invasion is approaching in mine. We made a conscious decision to simplify raiding due to the fact that we expected there to be lots.
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Gentlemen, thank you for the very educational discussion! I'll have to give these rules a try at some point...
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Here is the result of a raid launched by the CC against the FS in June 3020 using the detailed combat system (adv SBF in this case but BF from SO could have been used).
Battle of Shaunavon June 3020
While the Capellan Military was completing its reorganization and redeployment of forces to better balance itself to meet the Davion harassment attacks it wanted to keep some pressure on the Federated Suns. It did this by launching a number of raids from the Sian Commonality between Sendalor and Rollis. It made use of McCarron’s five regiments used in pairs or with mercenary commands such as Ambermarle’s Highlanders.
The supply raid in June 3020 against Shaunavon promised to be a good example of how elite troopers could brush aside the regular troops that make up most of the garrison forces on most of the less important planets throughout the Inner Sphere. At least that was the plan. Two medium tank companies were chosen to execute the raid supported by two squadrons from the command’s aerospace wing. Note that the two companies involved could have been reinforced to four platoons each and remain legal under the SBF rules. However, always conscious of the dangers of a dice roll, McCarron decided to keep the pv of the attack force to a minimum.
Not wanting to risk tipping off the FS by an ‘Espionage: System Reconnaissance’ mission being discovered he sent the troops in to a close pirate point, risking the entire force against a DR of 4 or less. The troops arrived as planned and escaped an aerospace interception but the insertion had problems and resulted in the defenders being 1.5 x the pv (150%) of the attacker. As the attack force consisted of 42 pv this meant the Davion defenders could field 63 pv worth of troops from the garrison.
Shaunavon is not well protected, possessing just one militia regiment (reliable/green), one infantry regiment (reliable/regular) and a single medium tank battalion (reliable/regular). The defender looked at his options and decided he would match the two medium tank companies that McCarron had sent along and build an ad hoc company with the remaining 21 pv. The remaining points were too few for the entire third company from the tank battalion but it could field the two remaining medium tank platoons along with a laser rifle platoon from the infantry regiment and a ballistic rifle platoon from the militia regiment. This third formation had just enough IT# to carry the two infantry platoon into battle without needing extra transport.
The first two turns were spent on the approach manoeuvers and soon enough the attackers were spotted and engaged. Despite wanting to avoid any long engagements the McCarron mercenaries soon found themselves caught up in a running battle. The mercenaries scored most of the early hits but could not avoid some damage in return. What was more important was the fact they could not seem to slip away and get after the building searches. As both sides began to suffer critical hits and individual platoons were shot up the McCarron troops realised they were in trouble. Around game turn 9 the mercenary CT 1 finally destroyed the last medium tanks of the Davion CT A and, despite heavy damage, dashed off into town, followed closely by the Davion CT C, who had been forced by stacking limits to stand back and lob long range shots from the adjacent hex. On game turn 11, McCarron’s CT 2 was destroy when it missed on a series of medium range shots meant to finish off the Davion CT B. The Davion gunners were more fortunate and landed every shot on target.
The remains of CT B and the still untouched CT C then caught CT 1 and Davion mediums engaged it directly while CT C again placed itself in position to lob in the long range fire. However, the difference this time was McCarron lads and lassies were already battered and bruised. For the next four turns the mercenaries kept the range open and slowly shot the remains of CT A to pieces but were reduced to their last few armour points on their last two lances. As the last Daviom mediums died they landed solid hits in return just as a cloud of LRMs blanketed what remained of McCarron’s tanks from CT C. To cap off the battle the two infantry platoons dismounted, formed up and advanced into the battle hex scoring the final kill shot with their SRM launchers.
Davion CT A and B were destroyed as were Mc Carron’s CT 1 and CT 2. Davion’s ad hoc CT C didn’t suffer so much as a scratch. McCarron’s 2nd armoured regiment’s notes its 1st battalion drops from 21 to 7 armour and with no survivors returning the battalion gains no experience. The Davion garrison manages to collect 40% of 30 armour points of damage in salvage which is recorded as part of the planets depot or can be used by the garrison for repairs. The medium garrison battalion gains 1 experience as do the regular infantry’s third battalion* and the militia’s first battalion
*I’ll explain the reasoning behind the ‘infantry battalions’ when we discuss the rules around ground units later on.
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Just as a test I have since used the quick resolution method and the end results were a final DR of 10 on the raid success table. The raid results table resulted in a final dr of 4 netting the attacker 4 RP or 12 RP if you calculate the garrisons potential combat supply. The rule is not clear if combat supply should be calculated for garrison regiments or just those belonging to combat commands. We are still knocking that one around but have generally applied the rule to just CC regiments so far.
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I'm glad to see the "mechanized infantry" model appears to work at this level. I built a planetary militia combining Goblins and infantry with two platoons of infantry per platoon of Goblins (one MG variant per tank platoon increases the infantry capacity to two platoons).
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Quick question about the DC - what are they doing with Wolf's Dragoons?
Their presence had such an impact on the canon 4SW.
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I'm glad to see the "mechanized infantry" model appears to work at this level. I built a planetary militia combining Goblins and infantry with two platoons of infantry per platoon of Goblins (one MG variant per tank platoon increases the infantry capacity to two platoons).
Mechanised infantry works quite well at this level and we have introduced them as an infantry purchase option. Note that we are we are talking about infantry mounted in APCs with tank support. This infantry costs more than a light tank regiment not quite as good in combat and is twice as expensive to supply. I'll go into more detail on this 'optional' rule when discussing the pertinent rule section.
As far as Goblins go, noting their low production rates only the Davion Heavy Guards have a regiment (and just one) equipped with the various models. It is a very powerful regiment but the low speed makes for a poor TMM value.
There are a few specialty units spread around in our game to help spice things up without making the game to Frankenstein-ish.
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Quick question about the DC - what are they doing with Wolf's Dragoons?
Their presence had such an impact on the canon 4SW.
Well, in our game they just signed on with house Steiner in May 3020 and raided three planets in hex 1824 in June. They made a mess of the defending garrison troops but suffered some losses.
They are all their, each of the five regiment has a normal mercenary command and the independent battalions (Zeta, 7th Commando, etc) can be attached for added fire power. The Black Widows make good raiders, of course.
We have learned that mercenary commands, regardless of experience or name, need large commands if going into heavy combat. It is not unusual to see merc commands augment army commands at a ratio of 1:2. Looking ahead to 3028, as GM, I was thinking the "Misery - Death to Mercenaries" campaign might work well as a GM imposed Regimental dual along the lines of the two "Turning Point" packets. It may be necessary to fudge a few things but we'll see.
Another question might be, "What happens if the 4th SW is launched against the DC in the midst of DtM? :o
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Quick question about the DC - what are they doing with Wolf's Dragoons?
Their presence had such an impact on the canon 4SW.
So far, as we are in 3025, the Dragoons have been raiding the border with the Federated Suns. Recon raids followed by disruption and supply raids. As the Purist says, a merc command can't stand up to a House command. Heck, the 2 regiments of Narhal Raiders weren't even able to overcome a planetary militia on the FWL border, in an LC attempt. The Dragoons made an abortive attempt at a counter-attack on a unit too, but lacked the aerospace support to overcome a local Combat Command that had reinforced Air, and withdrew before even getting to the world. I didn't include 7th Kommando, but did include the Widows and Zeta Battalion. I'm torn about 7th Kommando; they really fit the profile of being a spec ops team more than an infantry command.
Assaults with all 5 of the Dragoon regiments and Zeta battalion could, I suppose, work; but they are better served doing raids or supporting other unit actions. We'll see, as the DC is by far in the best position to pick their attacks.
The DC has so far been less than impressed with their mercs, as has the FWL - but that's come down to some seriously bad luck with the dice - and mercs saved the Night Stalkers from being wiped out by the LC on Mozirje, so there's that. The LC is LOVING their mercs, as they have the best light units available to them for raiding. FS also has been using their mercs extensively to keep the CC busy so far. Also, the FS shops for mercs that have their own jumpships, as I reduced the amount of House units by a small portion for them that have their own. Anything to keep their costs down, really.
Oddly, there was a mutiny check that happened in the Magistracy of Canopus that wiped out one merc unit, and Redfield's Renegades in the Fed Suns has come close to mutiny a couple times after some disastrous raids, which has made it all a bit interesting.
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Rather than post large sections of rules for review and discussion I'll post more digestible bites so we can retain some focus. I 'll throw in some of the house add-ons for comment, mainly additional unit types to add some flavour. ::)
Starting Set-Up
We stuck with IO for most of this but there was debate on planets/factories. We sorted out discrepancies with the economies by adding or subtracting the planets/factories, etc. to get up to the right numbers.
Economics and Logistics
Spreadsheets are used to track economics and are a must for avoiding errors. We originally had all the income calculation and mercenary issues at the start but once we became familiar with the process the only change we have kept are as per the sequence below.
- Retained RPs
- Banking RPs
- Calculate New RPs
- Infrastructure Purchases
- R & D
- Logistics
- Merc Supply & Hiring
- Pirate Contracts
Retained RPs
Maintaining a surplus of RPs is a must unless you want to put commands out of supply. Unsupplied status is a dangerous proposition as being caught without supply can make the survival of a command, already chancy with supply, almost impossible. The 5% interest earned is not as big a bonus as many discussions have thought if only because surplus RPs are not that easy to maintain once Spec Ops, movement and combat begin. Forecasting needs becomes a necessary skill set as an unexpected enemy offensive can upset calculation very quickly. A 25% buffer over basic supply needs, mercs included + 100 RP for movement is a good rule of thumb.
Supply
If you are chronically short of money you will need to move a number commands back from the front to avoid combat and perhaps suffer ‘prolonged neglect’. However, these can be given a Repair order every month and stay up to strength at the cost of 1.5 time the armour point cost.
A favourite tactic seen so far is to throw a wave of troops at a target planet(s) on turn one of an attack. On turn two, if not pinned in combat, commands can jump away with a move/repair order. A second wave of commands then jumps into the target to continue the battle. If the commands are engaged at the end of the previous turn (ACS turn '8') and cannot leave the combat hex you run the risk of broken supply lines and the possible loss of the command. This does not happen as often as one might think as average battles often do not last more than 3-5 ACS turns before one side declares a retreat, if they can manage to disengage, or are allowed to go by the victor. The risk of “Broken Supply Lines” has created a strategy where players attempt to clean out 50% +1 of the systems in a hex so ownership changes and supplies flow freely. “Control” of hexes helps secure the supply lines and thus the survival of commands shot up in opening waves of combat.
Then again the return of RPs if supplies break down can be a good thing as long as you are prepared to pull the effected troops back.
Fortifications
Players seem very conscience of creeping maintenance costs and the effect on budgets if forts are involved in combat. Make a mistake in not supplying a Std-1 and its gone,… with 50 RPs wasted. Even a miss on supplies for a larger standard fort will cost it a level and the 5 RPs for the expansion. Considering the power of even a Std-1 fortification, no one has left forts unsupplied thus far.
Mercenary Retention/Hiring
As discussed elsewhere we had to add in a Retention TN modifier in order to get players to keep mercenary commands as part of their military. This seems to have resolved the ‘too expensive for what you get” issue. Now a 20% overpayment combined with a commitment to pay (ie) 25% armour replacements, gives a House a -4 mod to the TN for retention.
While expensive to maintain their hiring cost is less than a new command of similar size, although the new command remains cheaper in the long run.
Pirates (new)
As there is no obvious need to deploy commands along the periphery we added 13 Pirate Bands spread around the map that can be hired for raiding through bidding (with a minimum opening). These commands work similarly to mercenary commands but are hired only for their specific mission and turn, are based on combat commands and keep all the proceeds of their entrepreneurship. They can be hired for raids with the usual limits of 2 CT and 2 A/S sqdns. The cost is increased the further from the pirate zone you ask them to operate from (such as asking pirates from Oberon to raid Main Street or Lost in Lyran space).
Pirates can also be paid *not* to raid. Pirates attacks average about 3-5 per month but the effect has been as intended. All the Houses now deploy small or merc commands (or a few under strength regular commands) along the periphery every three-four hexes to block raids and establish rotating patrols. One or two nasty surprises have occurred when a command is unsupplied and a pirate band comes calling. Money collected by the GM is used to rebuild pirate CUs (pirates refuse contracts if too beat up and in need of rebuilding) or add to the MRB fund (the book keeping is not that difficult).
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Starting Set-Up
We stuck with IO for most of this but there was debate on planets/factories. We sorted out discrepancies with the economies by adding or subtracting the planets/factories, etc. to get up to the right numbers.
We also had to make a minor change to the economy (see LC). That was discussed in another thread; in the end, while we opted for a slightly different couple of planets/industry to add, the net result was the same, that it brought the economy up to what was in the book.
As mentioned previously, however, it's interesting how much RP the DC gets. Especially if the player is a savvy trader. In our case, the DC player played... hardball with the Outworlds Alliance, telling them that if they wouldn't trade, the OA would make a nice annexed extra district. As GM, playing the NPC, that may have ticked off the OA, but they had to acquiesce as they are in no position to fight a war with the DC. They also got the trade of the TC (help us fight the Davions!) and the MoC, plus their Kapteyn allies.
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Rather than post large sections of rules for review and discussion I'll post more digestible bites so we can retain some focus. I 'll throw in some of the house add-ons for comment, mainly additional unit types to add some flavour. ::)
Fortifications
Players seem very conscience of creeping maintenance costs and the effect on budgets if forts are involved in combat. Make a mistake in not supplying a Std-1 and its gone,… with 50 RPs wasted. Even a miss on supplies for a larger standard fort will cost it a level and the 5 RPs for the expansion. Considering the power of even a Std-1 fortification, no one has left forts unsupplied thus far.
Mercenary Retention/Hiring
As discussed elsewhere we had to add in a Retention TN modifier in order to get players to keep mercenary commands as part of their military. This seems to have resolved the ‘too expensive for what you get” issue. Now a 20% overpayment combined with a commitment to pay (ie) 25% armour replacements, gives a House a -4 mod to the TN for retention.
While expensive to maintain their hiring cost is less than a new command of similar size, although the new command remains cheaper in the long run.
Pirates (new)
As there is no obvious need to deploy commands along the periphery we added 13 Pirate Bands spread around the map that can be hired for raiding through bidding (with a minimum opening). These commands work similarly to mercenary commands but are hired only for their specific mission and turn, are based on combat commands and keep all the proceeds of their entrepreneurship. They can be hired for raids with the usual limits of 2 CT and 2 A/S sqdns. The cost is increased the further from the pirate zone you ask them to operate from (such as asking pirates from Oberon to raid Main Street or Lost in Lyran space).
Pirates can also be paid *not* to raid. Pirates attacks average about 3-5 per month but the effect has been as intended. All the Houses now deploy small or merc commands (or a few under strength regular commands) along the periphery every three-four hexes to block raids and establish rotating patrols. One or two nasty surprises have occurred when a command is unsupplied and a pirate band comes calling. Money collected by the GM is used to rebuild pirate CUs (pirates refuse contracts if too beat up and in need of rebuilding) or add to the MRB fund (the book keeping is not that difficult).
For the part about fortifications, I agree completely. I awarded the pirates that the Lyrans are attacking some fortifications to show how difficult it is to fight them on their home ground; it has ground the anti-piracy campaign to a halt. The Fed Suns had built fortifications on Galtor III, which the militia used to (barely) weather an attack by 3 DC combat commands. Admittedly, the militia was down to a mech battalion and an infantry regiment (both badly damaged) before relief arrived, but it held in the face of 3 combat commands, and that's a pretty amazing feat. It was well worth the investment, and showed how nasty capital assaults will be without special ops to neutralize them.
We co-opted your posted merc rules as well, btw. So far, liking them.
I went with a different variant for pirate raids, myself. Mine was a bit more GM intensive, and relies on random amounts of raids more often. That being said, pirates are also available to be bribed too. It has kept players a bit worried about their periphery borders, but in the end, the raids are still not damaging enough to worry about as much as they should. This is due to the fact that other than the FWL to a limited extent, there are few worlds of value on the borders. I'm still looking at options to also prevent players from just migrating all troops off the Periphery border (and/or just annexing Periphery worlds).
A thought was to have a % of the house commands must be on their Periphery borders; dip below that % and the pirate raids not only grow in intensity, but worlds may start simply... disappearing after a raid, no longer being able to support themselves. I may introduce that for turn 13.
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It strikes me that pirates + fortifications should be enough to keep troops on the Periphery borders. If pirates start carving mini-states out of border planets, that should be more than enough of a wake up call...
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That was always something I would have liked to have seen included, but word counts are hard masters, and price points harder.
Being brutally honest, there's no real scope for the minor periphery powers to be more than gadflies. being the PC OA player would be incredibly limiting - worse than being Saruman in the old SPI War of the Rings game (grognard points there ;) ) So what you're doing gets my seal of approval.
The other thing I like is that - to some extent, and with the odd tweak - the in-universe "logic" starts coming out of the woodwork. There's no one "optimal" approach. Forts are powerful, but static & expensive. Mercs are cheaper today, but unless you take care of them, unreliable, and if you do, expensive. Raiding is a good investment provided you organise the circumstances (hello 3SW!) Intel ops can be effective, and CI is a worthy investment. Now, how do I balance all these ... that's the Successor Lord dilemma.
And yes, people often forget that the DC was economically strong. They needed to be, with one large and one powerful state on each border. The Capellans only lasted (in Canon) until someone decided to forgo the short-term advantage of minimal investment against them, for the longer-term benefit of curb-stomping them.
Side note: the biggest reason we didn't include rules for ComStar as PCs in 4th War, is that we felt the first thing most players would do would be curb-stomp Terra. "Well, that's that out of the way. Now, back to our scheduled war!"
[Doesn't mean I don't still have the rules for being a PC ISP ;) ]
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One thing you might consider proposing to the publisher is to reserve 4 - 5 (or 7 - 8, or whatever) pages in future releases to include a small section that expands on, or clarifies, the weaknesses in the rules as they currently stand. This worked well in both the SW books so far. This would give time for rules "anomolies" to be spotted and clarified or new/replacement rules for oversights to be added.
Pirate rules would be a good candidate for such an addition.
I agree with you on the PC periphery powers. Unless fighting the Andurien Seccession War or the Reunification War, they should be GM controlled in order to give the Great Houses reason to garrison the borders and expend resources to watch for trouble on the "back porch".
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With pirate Raids and maybe even all Periphery factions, in the original Brush Wars book for the ISaW scenario of the Andurien Wars there’s a rule about Border Tensions - it’s basically around a NPC F-C raiding/attacking the FWL border worlds, making sure the FWL doesn’t strip their borders.
It has a table with modifiers that are influenced by FWL raids, border garrison strength, payoffs and previous FC raids. Each turn the FWL rolls and applies the result.
These results range from nothing to minor raids up to 3 major raids - there is a table with the force composition of minor and major raiding forces (with the Andurien player choosing the world(s) to be raided).
In these rules Major Raiding forces look almost regimental strength, but this could reduced, if it’s a pirate band.
They sound like a good way to force players to garrison border regions.
Were you guys aware of these rules?
If so did you consider them?
They could be helpful without having to track pirate bands
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In regards to the Periphery powers, I'm not as convinced as the rest of you. Mostly because I like playing the scrappy underdog, I guess. Don't get me wrong; playing as the OA would suck as much as the reference about Saruman in that LotR game would be. However, even with reduced tech, the TC and the MoC would give a helluva fight to a Successor State that was adventurous. They'd lose but in so losing, would cripple that state and leave them open to an attack on another front, IMO.
I am aware of the rules in Brush Wars; my first ISaW game was the Andurien Secession (though at the time we ran it, we only had access to the Beta and later the regular rules out of IO). The trick for that one was converting it to current standards (from ISF), though it wasn't difficult. See other posts about that game; the Anduriens lost precisely because they used too many mercs. I am toying with something similar to that in rule scope, with perhaps 15% of total commands (thus, smaller commands are just fine) being required to keep the table in check and make raids quite infrequent. The problem again as mentioned is that most worlds along the Periphery are just not that valuable; even a very successful raid won't do much in the way of economic damage at the Grand Strategic level.
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Also, turns:
June through September, 3025.
Turn 6
Another series of raids takes place: now however, the Capellan Confederation is ready. Repelling continuing
Davion raids, Capellan forces begin to gather courage.
DC raids damage New Earth.
FS raids mostly falter.
FWL experiences even worse luck with Parliament.
LC manages to damage facilities at Irian via sabotage..
Turn 7
Sporadic raids on all fronts
Turn 8
The LC begins their operations to destroy piracy
However, at Gotterdammerung, the 12th Donegal Regulars meet their match.
A fortified position with a force that is engaging in hit and run in the field, the 12th struggles to keep up and fails to inflict any significant damage.
While the local pirates also do not do much in the way of appreciable damage, they badly draw out the Lyran forces, and begin to exhaust them.
Pain also puts up a brief fight but in the end, the Donegal Guards prove too much for local troops.
Turn 9
FWl raid on Gienah has the newly deployed 3rd Lyran Guard there crushing the raiding party utterly of the 9th Regulan Hussars. The 9th Regulan, continuously on the losing
end of intelligence as well as supplies, has several more units desert or outright mutiny.
A number of SAFE operatives are found over wide sections of the Lyran border, ascertaining various troop locations.
A number of MIIO operatives are found in Capellan Space and are executed messily.
Raids on St Ives, Ares and spec ops on Sarna do more damage to the Capellan economy. Supply raids steal several valuable supply shipments to troops in the St Ives
Commonality as well.
The FWL is forced to pay massive reparations due to an undisclosed incident involving Comstar technicians. The threat of interdiction is narrowly avoided...
The FS and the LC also face similar fines.
Pirates continue to fight against now the 11th and 12th DG on Gotterdammerung, and continue to hold off the forces in an amazing mobile campaign, slaughtering 3 infantry regiments as part of their overall fight. Lyran forces have yet to inflict significant damage to the pirate force, and multiple assaults on their fortress have failed. Lyran morale is low, and even more reinforcements are looked at being brought to bear in this expensive endeavour.
Also, using intell gathered previously, the Lyran forces of Winfield's Brigade and the 30th Lyran Guard attack and occupy Czestreg in the Rasalhague District. What will the Dragon do?
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By the way; a thing that is common on both sides since turn 2 that hasn't even been mentioned is that units - mostly smaller scale units (such as mercs) on both sides of the border with all powers are engaged in 2 things:
Patrol Missions
Commerce Raid missions
For the Cap Con, again, if they don't have patrols up, they would lose a massive amount of economy. Also engaging in Commerce Raid has been sporadic for them, as they can't afford the combat supply (and sometimes don't even have the reserves necessary to do both).
For the FS, with a large pool of small commands initially to draw from, commerce raid and patrol missions are their lifeblood. It eats into the budget, but is necessary. The DC, on the other hand, is annoyed by the necessity of it.
Fatigue eats into the schedules of all powers units that are doing this, and it's a constant rotation of units to do patrols so that other commands can rest. I haven't mentioned this previously as it's not very sexy, but goodness, it eats a lot of budget.
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By the way; a thing that is common on both sides since turn 2 that hasn't even been mentioned is that units - mostly smaller scale units (such as mercs) on both sides of the border with all powers are engaged in 2 things:
Patrol Missions
Commerce Raid missions
For the Cap Con, again, if they don't have patrols up, they would lose a massive amount of economy. Also engaging in Commerce Raid has been sporadic for them, as they can't afford the combat supply (and sometimes don't even have the reserves necessary to do both).
For the FS, with a large pool of small commands initially to draw from, commerce raid and patrol missions are their lifeblood. It eats into the budget, but is necessary. The DC, on the other hand, is annoyed by the necessity of it.
Fatigue eats into the schedules of all powers units that are doing this, and it's a constant rotation of units to do patrols so that other commands can rest. I haven't mentioned this previously as it's not very sexy, but goodness, it eats a lot of budget.
An interesting side note: the Merc forces of the FWL are (3025) positioned to be able to provide both the Commerce Raid and Patrol missions of the FWL needs along the LC border. PERFECTLY.
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Military Development Phase
This rule section is not that difficult to work with but the choices require some thought. Unfortunately, trying to squeeze a complex interstellar campaign game into just under 24 pages means they can be a bit thin on imposing what could be described as rational ‘in-uni” limits. This does not mean the GM cannot try to keep things under control himself.
The first thing to note is that the options for new commands is extensive and commands can be tailored to meet specific roles forced by the missions available to the armies. The rules as written almost require flexibility it as the economic structure could quite easily collapse if players were forced into using only large commands. At the same time, due to movement costs (a later rule), the most economical means of troop movement is in larger commands. Even more efficient are larger commands with jumpships.
Mercenary Replacements
Other than the small commands to replace mercenaries or defend quiet areas against raiders the expansion of armies has been rather limited. The FWL has deployed “Auxiliary” commands, the Combine calls theirs “Garrison” commands and names/deploys them by district. The Commonwealth has called their smaller commands “Landwehr” and named them by province (Bolan, Isle of Skye, etc.) and so on.
Patrol Commands
Patrol commands have made an appearance (1 light Mech reg’t and 2 a/s wings) to block raids into rich industrial areas. Commerce raids against minor and major systems can be reduced by placing a command on the likely targets and support them with a nearby Patrol Command. Other than these a good percentage of “new” commands are actually rebuilt commands destroyed in combat. Entire commands can be destroyed in 3-5 ACS turns if outnumbered by as little as 20% so casualties in full blown invasions are heavy for both sides. Those commands that manage to disengage a few mangled survivors are usually scrapped or mined for armour replacements. Armies can shrink fast as a single turn of heavy fighting can see 6-12 commands (nearly) destroyed depending on whether “Honours of War” are observed or not. Unfortunately, even the richest Houses can afford to replace little more than 2 to 4 standard size commands at a time unless troop quality is dropped significantly. This in turn adds to the casualty lists as green troops are at a significant disadvantage.
Check the Tables
The tables presented in Campaign Operations have some errors so players should double check the stats before using them. The FWL light tank battalion jumps out as the best example. Based on the battalion building from SBF Unit to Combat Team to CU the table is wrong in many places. The move of 9 is wrong as no sub-units have a move of 9. It has only two CTs when it should have three. The armour and damage values are off as well. Even the PV looks wrong. Building up from the SBF unit the stats should read:
Size:1; Move:8; TMM:3; Arm: 18; S:9; M:9; L:0; PV:60(?) – Special: IT9, RCN
It is effectively the same unit as the CC light battalion unless the third CT was supposed to be medium tanks but that does not appear to be the case. I suspect someone was very rushed while building the table that day.
Some Fun Stuff
We also re-jigged the infantry regiments into three battalion affairs with CAR27/IT27 (but generic tranports) and a TMM of 2. We added a jump infantry regiment with a higher TMM that could be purchased similar to infantry but in more limited numbers. We also added a mixed mechanised infantry regiment that is neither CI nor CV but a hybrid. It is more expensive than a light tank regiment and costs more to supply than motorised infantry but its real value, other than higher armour and damage values, is that it does not suffer the penalties found on page 308 under “engagement control” for either “infantry” or “vehicle” only. I can post these ‘house’ changes in more details if anyone is interested.
Black Water Navies
Our one truly big addition is the “Naval Command”. It is not so much an addition as using the rules as written to build a naval command and then tweaking it a bit to add some extra charcter. As per the IO rules those built from scratch have to include the obligatory Mech regiment. The other requirements are intended to make naval commands a unit players have to give some thought to considering the cost:
- Mech regiment (so far just light), 16 RP (or the cost added to the command)
- Assault A/S Wings, 24 RP each
- Lt, Med or Hvy a/s fighter wings up to the capacity of AT# in the command.
- All the Aslt wings must have jumpships.
- A “Carrier” Aslt wing can be included if available, 30RP
The Carrier Wing is a standard Aslt Wing with one sqdn replaced with a Vengeance carrier, an Achilles and two Avenger assault dropships converted to ACS (roughly). The stats for the wings come out as follows:
ACS Combat Unit - Mov:4; Arm: 391; S:11; M:13: L:9 – AT40+2 [JS]3
1 - FWL and Periphery wings have somewhat different values.
FWL – Mov:4; Arm:37; S:11; M:11; L:5 – AT40+ [JS]
Periphery – Mov:4; Arm:57; S:15; M:19: L:9 – AT40+ [JS]
2 – AT40 plus the values for the House standard Aslt wing sqdn (ie: a FWL CV wing has AT40+16+16 = 72 and could carry four A/S fighter wings plus the capacity of other assault wings)
3 – [JS] = our excel spreadsheet code noting jumpships are included in the command
Most Naval Commands so far consist of one carrier wing, two assault wings and usually two to four fighter wings. These commands are quite expensive and there is a limit to the number of Vengeance based CV wings allowed per year. At first I wondered why players did not take the plunge and fill the AT capacity when commands were built. It soon became apparent that the empty slots were being occupied by the ground command’s A/S wings. Now safely aboard dropships these fighters can fight anywhere on the SSRM
A standard Capellan naval command (reliable/green) consisting of three dropship wings and two fighter wings would cost:
Lt Mech Reg’t – 16 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) = 24
CV Aslt A/S wing – 30 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) x 2 [JS] = 90
Aslt A/S wing – 24 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) x 2 [JS] = 72
Aslt A/S wing - 24 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) x 2 [JS] = 72
Med A/S wing – 12 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) = 18
Hvy A/S wing – 15 x 1.5 [r] x 1 (g) = 22.5
For a total of 299 (298.5) RP
The Mechs and fighters do not require jumpships as long as the dropships have AT and MT#s sufficient to lift the passenger units. Note that three additional a/s fighter wings could have been added to this command and remained within the AT limit (AT104).
So far these commands have worked well and their appearance can greatly shift the balance of power in an area if unopposed. Their cost has led to cautious use and few have (as yet) been committed rashly to major battles. The biggest naval battle to date (Kessel) saw heavy aerospace damage/losses that have not yet been entirely replaced. Our tests with these have been interesting and show that Aslt wings with fighters are a definite must if one is going to attack a system with Black Water Navy defenders.
Transport Wings (Testing)
Rule being tested at the moment
“Transport” wings were also developed as the rules are silent on just how do you approach a planet while the aerospace battle swirls around the SSRM. These commands are configured to match the approximate size of standard ‘national’ combat commands and add some drama to the approach battle. It takes 3 ‘wings’ to lift a standard command (with some abstraction thrown in in) adjusted for the larger LC and FWL commands. The transport wings (see below) make the approach battle interesting and it should be noted they are not defenceless.
Note these wings are generic much like the assault wings presented 1st SW but contain the basics of most troopships from the diminutive Fury to the Condor and Excalibur. There is also the equivalent of an Overlord and Leopard CV built into a wing for carrying Mech and ASF CUs. Combat units must be divided equally amongst the transport wings. For every 10 CUs in a command (round normally) the command receives a transport wing. This would mean the CC, DC and FS receive 3 transport wings for a standard combat command, the FWL and LC would receive 4 wings and a mercenary command would possess a single wing. The stats for each wing are:
Move: 4; Arm: 30; S: 9; M: 9; L: 3
Combat Teams (squadrons) work out at: Arm: 10; S: 3; M: 3; L: 1
Rather than assign transport numbers as was done with the assault wings each wing must be assigned a proportional number of CUs. The contents of each wing would be noted on the transport wings formation tracking sheet.
The trick with the transport wings is at what point does damage begin leaking through to the cargo/passengers? For now we are looking at 50% and the usual start to critical hits being received. Besides the usual critical hits from the table we have been looking at these additions for transports:
DR: 2-4 no crit; cargo takes 10% armour damage for each instance (FRN)
DR: 5-7 Targeting damage; cargo takes 20% armour damage for each instance (FRN)
DR: 8-9 Weapons Damage; cargo takes 20% armour damage for each instance (FRN)
DR: 10-11 Movement Damage; cargo takes 20% for each instance (FRN)
DR: 12 mission kill; cargo eliminated*
*Or not depending on the results salvage rolls on page 244. Some lucky survivors may have escaped via the “dead vs truly dead” aspects in the game.
As an example: a transport wing takes 50 % damage and must roll for its first crit. The roll is a 4 so the wing itself is un effected but the passenger CUs take 10% damage to their starting armour value. If a later hit does more damage without destroying the transport wing and the player rolls an 8, the wing takes
weapons damage and the cargo CUs take an additional 20% damage to their armour based on the starting armour value.
Supply Convoys and Depots
We have also tinkered with supply convoys. These would be a block of RPs carried on a transport wing to bring supplies with an invasion force. They would need to fight their way to a planet where depot would be established in a city, factory, capital or fortification. The depot would be exposed to capture. Still under discussion and yet even being tested
Innovation
Let players use their imagination and they will always surprise you. House Davion has created two “Artillery Commands” intended for fortress busting. A light Mech regiment leads 8 artillery battalions with the intention that once the defender has retreated into a fortress, a regular combat formation supports the 8 artillery battalions (keeping in mind the maximum 16 CU per hex) that enter the hex and start blasting away at long range (since the attacker can set the range when dealing with forts), all the while supported by a host of aerospace wings dropping bombs. Neither has been used yet but one has been sent to the Capellan and the other to the Draconis March.
Loyalty
Purchasing and use of ‘questionable’ commands is not as bad as one might think, at least in moderation. These troops possess a bonus in winning engagement control rolls even if they have trouble hitting the proverbial broad side of a barn. Pair them with some reliable veterans or fanatic troops and the battle for the hex could go your way. Note also that the to-hit penalties for questionable loyalty are offset by fighting fanatic troops or by achieving veteran status. Questionable troops can also pin fanatics down and prevent them disengaging, while whittling away their strength but they will suffer for their pains. Exchanging questionable loyalty troops for enemy reliable or fanatic battalions is also a viable economic weapon. The AFFS with superior combat doctrine, questionable loyalty and veteran status (6th New Syrtis Fusiliers) can really mess Capellan fanatics when they are pin formations to the ground and their disengaing from a fight to manoeuvre or withdraw.
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RE: Loyalty. We have also found that Questionable troops have been useful on more than one occasion due to that engagement bonus. That being said, if they LOSE a fight and go to a 5 morale, the chance of desertion/mutiny means a real threat in losing these troops. We've had this happen a few times now, to great effect. The 9th Regulans in the FWL lost an entire battalion to mutiny and went merc, as well as a good chunk of their support.
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:) Barring "honours of war", most [q] battalions coming out of a losing battle don't have to worry about desertion. Being disbanded for armour replacement points is probably a more common fate. xp
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:) Barring "honours of war", most [q] battalions coming out of a losing battle don't have to worry about desertion. Being disbanded for armour replacement points is probably a more common fate. xp
Ah. There's the rub; we're mostly doing honours of war. Except the Dracs. It was a requirement that, barring some type of amazing feat by their opponents that was "impressive" (amazing dice rolls or some particular tactic that worked really well), the Dracs are not allowed to give honours of war. After 3028, there will be NO honours of war ever given to mercs either, no matter what. A minor scenario adjustment for us. So far, the Drac player has been fine with this. The other players have been too.
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RE: Commerce raiding/patrols.
I am curious about your pattern of patrols and commerce raiding. We have found that a salient into the other person's territory is especially handy for commerce raiding, as it often requires additional patrols (and therefore rp) to cover afflicted areas. Examples: Galtor Thumb, St Ives (Tikonov not so much, due to the fact that forces are so concentrated near Terra that a single patrol covers a lot of territory)
Meanwhile, patrols seem to be best NOT right on the border, but often an interstellar hex (or two) behind the front lines. This also makes patrols less prone to being engaged by your enemy, due to that extra jump distance.
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oh, and post going probably on Wednesday for turns thru to turn 18. Heh.
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Yup, a salient can be a pain in the backside but as you suggest, a Patrol set up behind the front can overlap the salient as well as cover the front. In fact, they are safer behind the front or stacked with another command for security.
The problem with a Commerce Raid in a salient is that it is vulnerable to counterattack. It will suck up RPs for combat supply while it's effects are comparatively easy to block with patrols. One can still deploy a command on any target of value and engaging the salient will stack up fatigue, and casualties, very quickly.
By the way, the Galtor Thumb Commerce Raider is easily countered by the Cussar Patrol. 8)
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Yup, a salient can be a pain in the backside but as you suggest, a Patrol set up behind the front can overlap the salient as well as cover the front. In fact, they are safer behind the front or stacked with another command for security.
The problem with a Commerce Raid in a salient is that it is vulnerable to counterattack. It will suck up RPs for combat supply while it's effects are comparatively easy to block with patrols. One can still deploy a command on any target of value and engaging the salient will stack up fatigue, and casualties, very quickly.
By the way, the Galtor Thumb Commerce Raider is easily countered by the Cussar Patrol. 8)
Ah. See, this is where we agree to disagree on our experiences again! Commerce raider more sucks up the OTHER guy's RPs than anything else; reason being that patrols have to be in place in all areas to block the possibility of raids. Raids are fired off by the attacker just often enough, or in preparation for full raids (that extra +1 to insertion) that full patrols on the border have to be maintained. Incidentally, this is a major advantage for the FWL and CC if Kapteyn exists, as they are not activating patrols on that border (and thus not spending rp on the patrols)
In this light, a salient often has to be covered by an extra patrol or two. Meanwhile, due to stacking patrols behind the lines, the salient can still usually be part of regular patrols.
Example: Galtor thumb. The salient means that the DC has a longer border to cover with patrols, requiring additional RP expenditure of said patrols (and fatigue). - basically, the salient forces the DC to field an extra patrol to cover their 2 hex range. By what we can see, the FS/DC border, the FS has 40 possibly threatened hexes to cover; the DC has 47. Admittedly, some of those hexes are pointless to cover; 1834 for the DC, for instance, or 1740/1840. Good placement of patrols MAY be able to mitigate this, but then also may become predictable.
Note also that Commerce Raid does not indicate under the rules that it generates fatigue, only combat supply. So the patrols get tired... but the Raider does not.
Oddly enough, we are finding that Patrols, not Commerce Raid, are leaving people open to counterattack. Specifically... locating patrols that are active in an area, via Espionage Military Operations and Espionage unit, and then doing Battle with a Naval engagement to wipe out the aero elements entirely of the patrol. So again... the complete reverse of your experience I think. Because commerce raiding is sporadic, it's far harder to pin down whereas patrols either have to have 2 (or more) units at least covering the same area, which again means that its easier to figure out if/when they will be the patrol that round. Cycling 3 or more in a given area is difficult... and often indicates a build up of forces as well.
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RE: Loyalty. We have also found that Questionable troops have been useful on more than one occasion due to that engagement bonus. That being said, if they LOSE a fight and go to a 5 morale, the chance of desertion/mutiny means a real threat in losing these troops. We've had this happen a few times now, to great effect. The 9th Regulans in the FWL lost an entire battalion to mutiny and went merc, as well as a good chunk of their support.
I keep getting a little glow whenever I see the system working how we intended it to. Note - I didn't do combat rules, but I'm the closest to an active boardmember who was involved. Shoulders of giants, etc. ;)
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Ah. See, this is where we agree to disagree on our experiences again! Commerce raider more sucks up the OTHER guy's RPs than anything else; reason being that patrols have to be in place in all areas to block the possibility of raids. Raids are fired off by the attacker just often enough, or in preparation for full raids (that extra +1 to insertion) that full patrols on the border have to be maintained. ...
You folks have definitely gone in a different direction. :o Patrols do not need to be constant just as commerce raiders do not need to be turned on all the time. The only time a commerce raid is truly effective if it catches minor/major/(district) capitals without coverage or a Patrol. Every House has enough commands to place at least one on the frontier targets and they need only be 50% of the raiders PV. Properly placed a commerce raid may only have a handful of "other" planets to affect, while paying full combat supply for the privilege (say 44-56 RP). This effect is lessened further if a nearby Patrol covers even a few additional hexes.
For example, the Capellans have just five (5) patrols covering almost all of their border, with a sixth in central reserve. These "roam" one or two hexes per turn so they are never in the same place unless protected by what we call the "1 + 1 Doctrine" - one command plus a small command (merc). This undermines espionage attempts to locate them, deters headhunters and quick strikes to knock out patrols. To be honest, a Patrol is not that worthwhile a target for espionage as the money is better used defending factories, spotting build ups, stealing tech, discovering new factory sites, etc. Espionage and Spec/Ops cost can easily run 200 - 300 RP without even looking for a single command. Trying to find one that moves every turn and has its own defensive espionage coverage would cost far more than the RPs you deny the opponent and then you have to pay the combat supply for the raiders. It's all about the balance sheet (which mimics real world industrial warfare quite well, actually) ;)
<Edit: considering espionage results are always a turn late this means that even if you find a Patrol during turn one, you can't attack that location until turn two and by then the Patrol may have moved elsewhere. You could could try to guess it location and strike but,... >>
In this light, a salient often has to be covered by an extra patrol...<snip>
This is only true if you think you have to prevent the loss of every RP, which is not the case. You only need to reduce the loss below a certain level of the enemy's expense. The decision to be made is how much? 25%? 50? Note you can reduce fatique by the use of RPs so patrols do not have to exhaust themselves.
As above, roving patrols and defended valuable hard points can make any sort of raiding problematic. We have seen entire campaigns launched with the purpose of disrupting the frontier and then raiding can be more effective,... at least until the equilibrium is restored. Rinse and repeat.
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Mmmm. Roving patrols are not so much a thing for us; the spreadsheet and bottom line (as well as fatigue) have kept the players from moving their units as much as that. Spending RP to combat fatigue is, interestingly, how the players that have Periphery pirates to worry about are doing it.
Also, the difference in using simplified raids vs the more detailed combat way you are doing so has some bearing I think. With the amount of raids in our game (mostly done by mercs), the extra +1 for insertion (even against the -2 for active patrol) makes a big difference for possible raid successes. It's what allowed a successful disruption raid on Tikonov, for instance. The icing on top is the loss of income from "other" worlds if an active patrol is not there. Meanwhile, raids that steal the unit supplies of ground units become quite feasible.
That being said, we don't have the specialized commands going as much as you do either from your campaign notes; so merc units are the choice for either commerce raider or Patrol missions to reduce costs where they can (and also for raiding missions). This saves bigger Combat commands as the Hammer of invasions, while mercs are fitting very well into the raider role. Using full Combat Commands for patrol/raid missions is usually a misuse of resources, as you have noted. It occasionally pays off (using an Elite, Light unit on a raid is great with the simple system) but usually, the Combat Supply RP cost is just too high when that unit could be better used elsewhere.
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Well, in my opinion, if you are still denying defending garrisons their fighters you are drastically handicapping the defence and making the job for the raiders too easy. Tikonov, for example, rates 300 PV and in the Capellan's case this allows 2 wings each of light, medium and heavy fighters. Raiding Tikonov is, and should be, a major challenge and defences should need to be worn down substantially before two companies could launch a raid much less shutdown the entire planet for three months.
Detailed combat also adds a more realistic feel to the effort (BF or SBF).
Tikonov, however, is an extreme example. A minor industrial world has only 100 PV plus the wings belonging to the command stationed there as well as the PV allowed from the Patrol, if one is in range. This makes raids challenging but not impossible. :thumbsup:
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This rule set regarding Espionage and Spec Ops are some of best in ISaW. They add a depth to the strategic campaign without bogging the game down with too much "chrome".
Intel Operations Phase
These rules are a great addition to ISaW and add a depth to the strategic level that the IO rules were lacking. It was also an excellent choice to have the results of espionage and sabotage operation revealed ‘after the fact’. Intel is rarely ‘real time’ and the rules are structured in such a way that players must commit significant resources to ‘building a picture’ of the enemy side of the hill before knowing what is going on. This makes it impossible to, for example, ‘Scout Industry’ in the intel phase to find a new factory and then jump that new facility with an industrial/infrastructure raid or invasion to destroy the factory the same turn. The same goes for tracking units or attempts to steal tech – advanced ground work is necessary before making any strikes by the troops or Spec Ops teams. For the most part the rules are very well done but I will point a couple of areas that have caused us some questions below.
Propaganda Operations
The biggest question we have is with the Propaganda Ops as they seem almost a guessing game. If you Disseminate Foreign or Domestic Disinformation (or even accurate information) that is not part of a target House’s own intel ops then it may be immediately obvious that it is propaganda. For example, if the FWL arranges to leak that the 1st and 5th Sword of Light have moved to Proserpina and the FS is not actually looking for them (Esp-Troop Location), or looking at Proserpina (Esp-Planetary Forces), or at military ops (Esp-Military Operations) in the area then the operation immediately stands out as propaganda. With a difficulty ratings of 4 and 5 the money for Propaganda might be better used elsewhere. Then again, perhaps we have missed something in the intended subtlety of the rules.
Espionage
Despite a few minor issues the rules are very much worth the learning. A well timed sabotage of communications, transportation or a successful system reconnaissance can make all the difference in a campaign for a planet. Establishing ‘agents in place’ is also a valuable tool, for both short and long game effects on espionage operations. Mole Hunting becomes popular weekend sport for aristocrats within the intel services.
Espionage operations focused on planetary forces and scouting industry is a versatile offensive op that opens the doors to more damaging sabotage or black ops. Espionage technology was a big hit until players learned to defend against it. It is used less often of late because it is expensive and robust defensive precautions can cause there to be little return for the effort. Even so, the threat of someone stealing your tech or sabotaging research is enough to cause RPs to be spent in large numbers with only the occasional attempt at actual theft. Sabotage of research can also undo much of the espionage gains even if there are quite heavy defences. Espionage to learn more about a system and its pirate points is worthwhile if planning a campaign to take ground and can flank solid aerospace defences or lessen the risk to raid insertion.
One question we have is on the lower end of “success” results. For example, if the result of a “Sabotage: Turn Agent results in a -3 MoS it is still considered a partial success. That said we use common sense and note that you cannot ‘turn’ 25% of an agent. Instead the Spec Op teams gets the ‘success’ bonus for the mission (2/3 chance of living) but the agent is not turned. We generally set 50% success as the cut off in such cases. On the other hand, 25% success on Sabotage:Industry would reduce the factory by 25% of its RPs for the next turn only as the MoS is 0 or less. In this case the -22 RP for damaging a minor industrial planet would only drop the RPs by 5.5, round normally (FRN) to 6 RP. Note that the same attack on a major industrial world nets a drop of 4 RPs – chalk the difference up to more depth to the infrastructure. The same result with Sabotage Research would do 25% of 25% of current DPs.
In the case of Sabotage: Communications or Transportation the result would apply to the percentage of commands involved, again with FRN. So a 25% comms hit against two or three commands would still affect one command but if the target contains only one command there is no effect other than a better survival chance for the team.
Common sense should be the guide through most of these conditions.
Special and Black Ops
Special and Black Ops need careful handling as the teams die with a sickening regularity. Timing is everything but nothing protects teams from a string of bad luck (ie: 5 of 6 LC teams dying in a single month). We have started to see teams ‘prepositioned’ but inactive, put in place until prerequisite espionage bonuses are met then money is dumped into the mission to help counter very green or green penalties. You may only see one or two ops in a month but the attrition of teams drops significantly.
Terrorism is favourite target for Black Ops but this rule is bit confusing by mentioning two effects for a successful operation. I have included an example below for Worktroll to comment on in case we are not handling it correctly.
Terrorism Example - New Syrtis was hit by a successful B/O - Terrorism mission. As per the rule this affected its ‘elements’ (gov’t?) with a -25% (-10 RP) RP penalty for 4 months, at the same time the minor industry was down 50% (-12 RP) for 3 months due to the MoS of 3. Thus the attack reduced a 64 RP planet to 42 RP. A follow up operation to damage the factory could have reduced this to 32 as the industry would be temporarily reduced to the status of an ‘other’ system.
Yes? No?
Defensive Operations
Defensive operations are cheaper but knowing what to defend and when is part science and part art. Keeping track of who is conducting Espionage/Sabotage against your House is extremely important as it helps draw a picture if intent. Protecting the path to a planet can mean the difference between getting reinforcements in before the planet falls or the enemy assault is reinforced. The most versatile counter-intel missions are Planetary Force Security and Domestic Security. These two defensive operations cover a wide breadth of territory and Intel and Sabotage/Black Ops missions. That said,… only Factory Security will protect a factory and this can become expensive. Likewise, Tech is best protected by Tech Security by the appropriate class and again, effective defense is expensive.
Note that we clarified with Worktroll that Sabotage Research can only be done at the capital, otherwise attacking tech research would be too easy on the one hand and too expensive to defend against on the other.
Defensive operations deep in friendly territory are not always necessary all the time. It can take time for a Spec Ops team to get to a target well inside the border to try their hand at sabotage. If you dump RPs into deep defences every turn you may be spending money unnecessarily. If an opponent spends four months travelling into the interior to sabotage a minor industrial planet you may be better off to take the odd attack and save your money rather than defend that factory every month. One tactic we have seen is for interior systems to have randomly ‘rotating’ or ‘on-off’ defences. The cost of all the potential operations should not be under estimated, a balance needs to be struck between costs and potential for damage. An argument for new factories is that the starting factory locations are all known. Placing new factories in out of the way locations help defray the damage done by (deep) strikes against known targets. The enemy is also now confronted with the task of slow, meticulous searches for these new industrial sites.
In the end, with the exception of the aforementioned Propaganda section, the rules work well and the Spec Ops teams are worth ‘nurturing’ but don’t expect to see many regular or veteran teams running around. The amount of successful Sabotage and Black Ops missions they need to be promoted from very green is significant.
Diplomacy Phase
The Military Treaties are not backed by rules with consequences for breaking them so they are really just agreements of convenience. You certainly are not compelled to support an ally with whom you hold a military assistance treaty (as an example) but one could refuse to trade with the House that violates the treaty. However, that may be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face as the loss of RPs will be felt immediately when most needed.
Economic treaties are worth it and you should try to sign one with everyone you are not fighting. Our only change here was concerning trade with the three periphery states. While trade with an adjacent major House will be a great boon to the minor state it is unlikely the House will gain a reciprocal benefit with the much smaller economy. With this is mind the periphery state still gains the +10% adjacent and +5% distant bonus but the House will gain only +5% and +2% for trade with one of the three NPC periphery states. All the same, the RPs are nothing to sneeze if you have weak economies similar to the Federated Suns or the Capellan Confederation.
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Well, in my opinion, if you are still denying defending garrisons their fighters you are drastically handicapping the defence and making the job for the raiders too easy. Tikonov, for example, rates 300 PV and in the Capellan's case this allows 2 wings each of light, medium and heavy fighters. Raiding Tikonov is, and should be, a major challenge and defences should need to be worn down substantially before two companies could launch a raid much less shutdown the entire planet for three months.
Detailed combat also adds a more realistic feel to the effort (BF or SBF).
Tikonov, however, is an extreme example. A minor industrial world has only 100 PV plus the wings belonging to the command stationed there as well as the PV allowed from the Patrol, if one is in range. This makes raids challenging but not impossible. :thumbsup:
Tikonov's a bad example, yeah; the amount of CCs that are already present there means that it already has the amt of necessary fighters.
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Economic treaties are worth it and you should try to sign one with everyone you are not fighting. Our only change here was concerning trade with the three periphery states. While trade with an adjacent major House will be a great boon to the minor state it is unlikely the House will gain a reciprocal benefit with the much smaller economy. With this is mind the periphery state still gains the +10% adjacent and +5% distant bonus but the House will gain only +5% and +2% for trade with one of the three NPC periphery states. All the same, the RPs are nothing to sneeze if you have weak economies similar to the Federated Suns or the Capellan Confederation.
We were torn on this as well. I also wanted to include tertiary powers as possible trading partners, such as the Oberon Confederation or the MH. One could also argue that trade with the greater state may be detrimental to the smaller state's economy, due to the sheer size of the economies overwhelming and disrupting the smaller state's economy.
However, in the end, we left the Periphery States being able to trade as per the rules. We were thinking for the future the following:
Successor State trading with Periphery power (MoC, OA, TC) - +5% for Successor state, or 1% if no border, +10 for Periphery, +5 if no border
Successor State with minor power (MH, OC, maybe Rim Collection when it appears, Lothian League, CF, MAYBE Illyrian Palatinate) 1% for Successor State with border, 0% if no border, and 15% for minor power if has border, 7.5 if no border. Useful to establish trade still with a minor power if no border to perhaps build an npc political ally, or cause a thorn in the side of the other power.
A Periphery power treating with Periphery minor powers would be a step down similar to a Successor State trading with a Periphery power; so they would gain 5/1% based on having a border, while the minor would get 10/5%
My players advocated that approach as it also gave some justification for NOT invading the Rim Collection, or other minor Periphery powers; even at 1% trade, it's better economically to leave them alone than to spend the RP conquering them. It also gives the Periphery minors enough RP to justify the (admittedly miniscule) armies they have. It also bumps the Periphery powers RP up a bit more too, which gives them a better chance of resisting a possible IS incursion.
I didn't do it... and may be regretting my decision, as the LC conquers the Rim Collection and the Valkyrate (though the Valkyrate at least is putting up a fight).
What I really wish for is something that could adjust the trade better. House rules floated were:
- Bonus to trade treaties with Merchant King, while reducing the amount of RPs that it generates on its own.
- granting Booming Economy to a nation that gets enough trade treaties/maintains same
- varying the trade bonus per round (again, with a bonus for Merchant Kings) - 3d6 was floated as the trade bonus roll - with penalties for raids launched on that player (and bonuses for active Patrol missions)
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This rule set regarding Espionage and Spec Ops are some of best in ISaW. They add a depth to the strategic campaign without bogging the game down with too much "chrome".
Intel Operations Phase
Propaganda Operations
The biggest question we have is with the Propaganda Ops as they seem almost a guessing game. If you Disseminate Foreign or Domestic Disinformation (or even accurate information) that is not part of a target House’s own intel ops then it may be immediately obvious that it is propaganda. For example, if the FWL arranges to leak that the 1st and 5th Sword of Light have moved to Proserpina and the FS is not actually looking for them (Esp-Troop Location), or looking at Proserpina (Esp-Planetary Forces), or at military ops (Esp-Military Operations) in the area then the operation immediately stands out as propaganda. With a difficulty ratings of 4 and 5 the money for Propaganda might be better used elsewhere. Then again, perhaps we have missed something in the intended subtlety of the rules.
Espionage
Despite a few minor issues the rules are very much worth the learning. A well timed sabotage of communications, transportation or a successful system reconnaissance can make all the difference in a campaign for a planet. Establishing ‘agents in place’ is also a valuable tool, for both short and long game effects on espionage operations. Mole Hunting becomes popular weekend sport for aristocrats within the intel services.
Espionage operations focused on planetary forces and scouting industry is a versatile offensive op that opens the doors to more damaging sabotage or black ops. Espionage technology was a big hit until players learned to defend against it. It is used less often of late because it is expensive and robust defensive precautions can cause there to be little return for the effort. Even so, the threat of someone stealing your tech or sabotaging research is enough to cause RPs to be spent in large numbers with only the occasional attempt at actual theft. Sabotage of research can also undo much of the espionage gains even if there are quite heavy defences. Espionage to learn more about a system and its pirate points is worthwhile if planning a campaign to take ground and can flank solid aerospace defences or lessen the risk to raid insertion.
Re: Propanda and lateness. This is one where perhaps WorkTroll can speak to it. For us, we assumed something else:
Contingency plans. Basically, an if/then situation.
Example: Espionage action to ascertain troop location. Contingency plan, Attack Order.
House Davion is annoyed by the 17th Galedon Regulars, which has been attacking their border with raids and a full assault 2 rounds ago. Worse, the 17th are now Elite status due to significant combat and training, and are getting dangerous on the front lines.
Earmarking the 1st and 2nd Crucis Lancers as well as the Davion Heavy Guards, based a jump away from where the 17th were last seen, all 3 units are placed on Attack orders and contingency battle (headhunt) orders. If word is released via espionage actions that the 17th are at a particular location, then the assault begins. (headhunt is a poor example, as the units mentioned are not mostly light, but bear with me). All 3 units deploy to attack and destroy the 17th.
However... a propaganda mission was done, revealing that the 17th was on one world alone (the nearby moon of Endor)... when in reality, an entire LEGION of the Draconis Combine's best troops awaits them on the moon of Endor! (insert evil Emperor laugh). 3 Davion units destroyed.
(a variant on this has already happened - in which the Patrol group moved to a different world and espionage revealed they had moved - so the attack forces then attack the world as soon as the Patrol group jumps away to their new location, as an Assault action instead, not knowing that the Patrol group wasn't moving at all, and ambushed them en route, attacking with 4 air wings to 2, and killing a good chunk of the Combat Command in space)
In our game, low cost espionage missions are happening constantly, in an effort to see what is happening on the border. Domestic security is then feeding misinfo, but specific targeted hexes are often given a bit extra RP to give a better chance... or agents in place (short or long term) are granting additional bonuses.
So... this required a bit of a rules extrapolation. It required that we assume that the attack order is filed (so regardless of whether the assault happens, the units are spending combat supply and fatigue) and are acting on up to date intel THAT ROUND. It also gives power to propaganda action. Also, it gives Espionage: Military operations some use, as you can also see what the contingency orders of particular units are. Note that issuing contingency orders to units can only be movement related or attack related (not Defend). Due to the fact that an Espionage roll could feed misinfo, has the potential to massively backfire as well. If no intel is given at all (failed esp roll and known, for instance) then the attack is aborted (no assault order) but the combat supply and fatigue is spent.
So. not entirely in the rules, but it also allows players (as long as they realize they ARE paying combat supply and fatigue for that unit) flexibility to act. It also means that a truly conniving player with appropriate espionage actions could see how different units are set to move/react on a front, and create a large-scale trap.
It also corresponds with btech fluff and having regional commanders make decisions... sometimes to their detriment. Basically, a contingency order is an order that isn't waiting for the HPG to get back to High Command at the capital to make a decision and then forward orders back. It also works well with Pony Express rules.
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Still going through this thread - my work life currently routinely includes meetings from 11:30pm to 9:30am - but the delay in getting intel results was quite deliberate.
Remember, the Successor Lords do not have the godlike view that players have, and bureaucracy is a real thing. So major operations do take time to build & prepare. How many times did the Brits attack the Tirpitz just after it left? And they were playing real-time ;)
Contingency orders: my gut feel (and it's a large gut) make me worry about complexity, and potential over-use. Imagine a border with everyone with contingency orders, triggering a chain reaction. While fun to watch, it doesn't fit the paradigm - certainly, until you're Clan, you just don't have the potential for real-time command & control implied.
Periphery states - I do like the general approach for making them worth paying attention to. But good on the Lyran player - taking control of the means of production ;) But on this scale, I can't see much room for genuine periphery state play. The trick would be to balance risk/reward vs. the trouble of curb-stomping them.
And :-[ for the kind words on Intel Ops. Yes, propaganda IS a guessing game. It works best in a GM'ed game, when all players are actively espionaging left right & centre. You did 10 ops, got 7 titbits back from the GM, and reports on two failures. Which is real, and which is double-cross? Never ignore the potential for false-flagging friends, either ;)
Of course, if you don't do espionage, then you know it's all propaganda. But is that worth it ?
Re black ops - yup, they're like multi-combo moves in computer games. If you want good chances, preparation is not the thing, it's the main thing. Stack those modifiers, and maybe you'll see that team again. Maybe.
W.
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Still going through this thread - my work life currently routinely includes meetings from 11:30pm to 9:30am - but the delay in getting intel results was quite deliberate.
Remember, the Successor Lords do not have the godlike view that players have, and bureaucracy is a real thing. So major operations do take time to build & prepare. How many times did the Brits attack the Tirpitz just after it left? And they were playing real-time ;)
Contingency orders: my gut feel (and it's a large gut) make me worry about complexity, and potential over-use. Imagine a border with everyone with contingency orders, triggering a chain reaction. While fun to watch, it doesn't fit the paradigm - certainly, until you're Clan, you just don't have the potential for real-time command & control implied.
Yeah, see my edit, which didn't beat your post:
It also corresponds with btech fluff and having regional commanders make decisions... sometimes to their detriment. Basically, a contingency order is an order that isn't waiting for the HPG to get back to High Command at the capital to make a decision and then forward orders back. It also works well with Pony Express rules.
I agree it does make for a messy border, but over-use hasn't happened because I force them to use combat supply and fatigue, which is expensive for something that may not even occur otherwise if no intel is given.
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As for kind words: still think that most of intell section is just perfectly dead on.
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Still going through this thread - my work life currently routinely includes meetings from 11:30pm to 9:30am - but the delay in getting intel results was quite deliberate.
Remember, the Successor Lords do not have the godlike view that players have, and bureaucracy is a real thing. So major operations do take time to build & prepare. How many times did the Brits attack the Tirpitz just after it left? And they were playing real-time ;)
As we discussed this in the past I am in full agreement. The "omnipotent player syndrome" had me move away from strategic level war games to more tactical games back in the 90s. I was into Advanced Squad Leader for years as it actually has a limited amount of OPS. Since moving overseas and finding ISaW it has breathed new life into our longggggg running Battleforce 2 game.
And it can all be done with excel, PDF and word files if needed. That said, the small army of tokens purchased from Brian (scrapyard armoury) has made Adv BF - ACS via Skype a lot of fun.
Contingency orders: my gut feel (and it's a large gut) make me worry about complexity, and potential over-use. Imagine a border with everyone with contingency orders, triggering a chain reaction. While fun to watch, it doesn't fit the paradigm - certainly, until you're Clan, you just don't have the potential for real-time command & control implied.
Again, I agree. In a game of this scope and in this setting this would elevate player omnipotence to anunacceptable level. No offence to our man, Epic. :)
Periphery states - I do like the general approach for making them worth paying attention to. But good on the Lyran player - taking control of the means of production ;) But on this scale, I can't see much room for genuine periphery state play. The trick would be to balance risk/reward vs. the trouble of curb-stomping them.
This why mine are GM run. There isn't a periphery state on the map that could not be crushed by a modest campaign with just a half dozen commands moving at a slow but steady pace. With low industrial tech penalties they cannot afford to engage in long term combat with a house. Their economies in 3025 cannot handle the supply needs (even the OA would collapse).
I did add one GM run Comstar ROM team, elite as hell, tasked with holding back research. They cannot attack the same house twice in a row to avoid leaving a pattern and if discovered can place the blame on another faction. Currently they are trying to block Industrial and Communication advancement by the Houses. A bit of fun for me during this phase.
And :-[ for the kind words on Intel Ops. Yes, propaganda IS a guessing game. It works best in a GM'ed game, when all players are actively espionaging left right & centre. You did 10 ops, got 7 titbits back from the GM, and reports on two failures. Which is real, and which is double-cross? Never ignore the potential for false-flagging friends, either ;)
Of course, if you don't do espionage, then you know it's all propaganda. But is that worth it ?
Don't blush,...you deserve a lot of credit for those rules.
When I go to the office tomorrow I will extract the orders from Mar 3020 and post them for you (info is now 3+ month out of date) . I think you will see the guys are quite busy with espionage. I admit that, for the life of me, I cannot get my head around the Propaganda bit. The feedback received so far is that the cost (difficulty rating and TN) make convincing misinformation tales hard to develop when they can be undone by good espionage for less money.
Re black ops - yup, they're like multi-combo moves in computer games. If you want good chances, preparation is not the thing, it's the main thing. Stack those modifiers, and maybe you'll see that team again. Maybe.
Preaching to the choir, Brother Worktroll, preaching to the choir. We used see six teams go out and die in droves with little to show for the investment. Now a turn where a House deploys three team is a busy month. Exceptions abound depending on player frustration levels but nurturing teams has become the standard. I can almost hear the groans from here when teams, painfully nursed up to regular are chopped, even if wildly successful on the mission. ;D
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I think I'll start a thread to run through ACS in a similar manner to the ISaW rules review ongoing here. Once we get to the orders, combat and end phase for ISaW there will be a lot of overlap with ACS.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I am leading my 1st Mechanised Brigade into its final battle on Alrescha in the morning and I need to sort the required tokens and fill out the formation sheet.
June 3020 has taken over two months to resolve, very busy with combats everywhere but the CC-FWL border. :thumbsup:
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The real strength of propaganda is in increasing ambiguity, not necessarily decreasing it in the wrong direction. I don't want to go into rule 4 territory, but the current state of the world is all the evidence you need.
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Exactly. The need for a GM "Chinese Wall" is high. If you run it as "here's what came from your operations, oh, and here's two random titbits", it doesn't work as intended. If you get "here's seven results", and two of them have 7th SOL on opposite ends of the borders ... it's working ;)
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I understand what you are saying but I think the issue the guys are having with Propaganda may be linked to cost and the nature of the Espionage and Spec Ops being launched. Rather than look for specifics they seem to concentrate on general information. I'll try to encourage more attempts at Propaganda but it is really up to them.
Below is the interchange between the FWL and LC in March 3020. I don’t have a scanner at home so I can’t post the emails but I have copied and pasted the two messages to “L” and “S”.
House Steiner spent 122 RP on Spec Ops and 224 RP on Intel and Counter-Intel. Of the 4 Spec Ops launched (Sab-Turn Agent x 3 and Sab-Comms x 1) one attempt to turn a FWL cictizen failed but all four team survived. The 224 RP spent on Intel used 132 on defensive measures and 92 on Foreign Intel. The events were reported thus:
S***,
The results of the spec ops has resulted in gaining an new agent in both the FWL and the DC. In fact, events have transpired where in the next month you can use a -3 TN to either an Esp or Sab operation. All spec ops teams have reported in safe and sound.
Agents aboard scouts ships and working with your astronomy boffins have mapped out reasonable safe pirate points in the occupied Rahne system (2119) that should be usuable for the next six month. Agents have also located the following League troops on the targeted planets. Specific details of enemy commands can be found on the attached Annex A):
2121 – Gacrux; Steel Guards thought to be at approximately 65% strength
2120 – Vindamiatrix; 1st Marik Mil estimated at 75% supported by a garrison force of 4/3/1/1. However the garrison forces appear very weak with only 10% of their normal strength. This leads us to believe the system has been pacified.
(The pacification time had elapsed so S already knew this. The Maril Militia was actually at 100% strength).
2422 – Irian; 1st and 2nd Marik Reserve each at 100% and possessing 1/1/2/1/1 regiments. There is also a garrison of 4/3/1/1 also at 100% and the CV Group “Dauntless” of 1/1/3 at 50%
<<NB**everything but the garrison is “false”>>
2517 – Coriscana; Garrison forces only – 3/2/-/1 at 100% (garrison is actually 4/3/1/1 but as the table on page 368 is well known, inaccurate information needs to fit that table, or very close to it, to be credible).
2519 – Keystone; Garrison forces only – 2/1/-/2 at 100%
1331 – Luthien; 1st Rasalhague Garrison Cmd possessing 1/1/1/2 (no arty; 2 x A/S) all at 100%
Counter Intelligence operations have discovered FWL agents have been seeking information regarding troop strengths on Hesperus II and New Earth. What information they have gleaned is unknown
No other activity to report.
End.
At the same time L was preparing his next push against the LC defenses in the Isle of Skye and Rahneshire. In this case the FWL spent 79 RP on 3 Spec Ops, 27 RP on Foreign and 144 RP on Counter Intel operations. L’s report read like this:
L**
It is my duty to report that the Sab-Ind(ustry) against the Lyran capital was aborted before it could be carried out. Likewise, the team sent to Sab-Tran(sportation) at Hesperus II also aborted their mission. In both cases the reasons remain unclear. We can report a successful Sab-Tran operation against the Lyran transportation infrastructure in 2122 with the team safely recovered.
<<in fact the Sab-Tran in 2122 was only 25% successful which did impact Lyran movement but not as much as the FWL had hoped>>
Your agents in the LC report making contact with at least two disaffected Lyran citizens who might be recruited by SAFE in the coming month should the resources be committed to turning them.
Agents have also located the following Lyran commands on targeted planets. Specific details of enemy commands can be found on the attached Annex A):
2019 - Hesperus II; 1st Royal Guards with 1/5/7/1/2 at 100%; 15th Lyran Guards with 1/4/5/1/2 at 100%; CV Grp “Defiant” with 1/2/2 at 100%
<<the large garrison was previously spotted by the FWL but not included in this report and FWL agents missed the 2nd Royal Guards (also with 1/5/7/1/2) entirely>>
2224 – New Earth; garrison only with 4/3/1/2 at 100%
2022 – Skye; agents confirmed this district capital remains a major industrial centre. Its three factories remain protected by both capital and standard fortifications.
The Lyran intelligence services have expended a major effort in the past month seeking to learn the strength of FWL forces in the following systems:
2120 – Vindamiatrix
2121 – Gacrux
2422 – Irian
2517 – Coriscana
2519 – Keystone
What information these agents may have gained is unknown.
End.
So, I try to keep information general except where players have requested location specific targets.
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The military phase provide all the orders required to move and fight on the campaign map covering the Inner Sphere. There is quite a. Lot to cover in these rules so they will be split into a number of posts to avoid information overload. ;)
Military Phase
The strongest part of the game sequence design is the fact that all orders from economic to combat must be written in advance and that execution is simultaneous. This removes the ‘omnipotent player syndrome’ seen in so many war games. This makes for a level of tension and anticipation in the game while waiting for results of espionage and "fighting" orders. The Military Phase compels a player to not only be ready for this turn but to place his forces to react to tomorrow’s events today. At the same time there are many places where the rules as written are either contradictory or incomplete. This is no doubt the result of the lack of playtest and rush to production and another reason future ‘in-uni’ books might wish to dedicate a few pages to tighten up on these rules.
Each unit receives four (4) orders points per turn and the various orders use these points to execute orders.
Logistics Orders
Training (3 points)Buy low, train high(er). Unless being pressed to the point of strategic defeat consider purchasing really green, reliable commands in pairs as your standard. Then drop both on a training centre for three or four months before deploying the front. Keep in mind this is often easier said than done as ACS is a bloody combat system and commands can be destroyed quickly. If time is on your side they may reach regular status and you now have a steady stream of low cost regular commands rolling out of the training centers. We’ve seen both the low cost option and, in a few emergencies, a massive outlay of RPs for a reliable , regular command that charged straight into the teeth of an enemy offensive (and help win the battle) at the cost of extremely heavy damage.
Rest (2 points) - for commands that have managed to disengage while relatively intact and can be pulled back to safe areas ‘on planet’ this order is necessary to reduce fatigue. Two rest orders use all four orders points and reduce fatigue by two (2) points. Fatigue can be reduced by two other methods (discussed later), RP expenditure and a turn without movement or combat. Fatigue ramps up quickly on the ACS map and the Orders given to a command can increase fatigue further.
Repair (2 points) – a battered command, and there will be many, that is still viable can be repaired for two orders points. If necessary a move order (see below) of one hex back combined with a repair order will repair some damage. A unit under repair is very vulnerable and has only 50% of its armour and S/M/L values if forced to fight. Unfortunately, the rule is silent on what happens if the 50% available armour is lost in combat. The implication is that the CU is destroyed, caught with its kit dismantled and its repair depots overrun. That is how we have interpreted the rule so we normally do our repairs “off world” unless there is a lot of cover available.
<<to be continued…>>
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The movement order rules are not overly complex but there are some issues with clarity and thorougness.
Movement Orders
The last sentence in the introductory paragraph is very important to future orders, both movement and combat. Keep that in mind as we go forward.
Transport Move (1 point) – Here is a rule that probably needs a re-write. The first sentence states that a movement order allows a command “to move one or more Interstellar Map Hexes.” It then goes on to state that only the ‘defend order’ (a defensive order explained below) may be used with a transport order.
This seems self-explanatory but the second paragraph then throws in a sentence where “If a Combat Command spends three or more Orders Points on Transport Move Orders, it may not issue any Offensive Orders, regardless of their cost.”
So which is it? Does a transport move order allow “one or more” hexes or does each hex require its own order. Thus far we have gone with one order per hex if only because this ‘seems’ to be the intent. We have also excluded any offensive orders from being issue with a transport move.
So,… if we are following things as intended transport move orders are required for each hex, and if three move orders are given no offensive orders can be given. It also takes one move to move a planet (discussed later), that said, there is nothing that states this move uses an order point since it does not involve moving from one Interstellar Hex to another. Since moving to a planet is the point of movement (and combat) and the distance is very short in comparison we have assumed this final move does not require a move order. Therefore, CCs that moves three hexes could then move to the planet using its fourth IMP (another later rule :) ) but not its final orders point.
Finally, there is the second sentence of the third paragraph. It should probably have been written as “If a Command was in combat in a *previous* turn, it may not issue more than two Transport Move orders”. The logic for this is curious but it could be intended to show some sort of “friction” imposed on logistics for units extricating themselves from battle. We have used the rule as we think it was intended, “a previous turn”, but most of the time a unit withdrawing from combat uses only one transport move (but 2 IMP) to an adjacent hex and then a repair order (2 order points) so it hasn’t really mattered.
Assault Move ( 1 point) - if you plan to do more than sit on the defensive you need to do an assault move to attack an enemy held planet. As above this rule could use some clarification. The rule has been argued that an assault move can move from hex to hex to hex and then land on a planet to fight (3 Aslt Mv orders to move 3 hexes) but this would mean each aslt mv would also incur the 1 fatigue point earned for the move order. This seems a bit excessive especially when one considers that the entire first sentence is written in the singular, implying an aslt move moves one hex and then drops the commands in system for combat.
This effectively limits an assault move to within one hex of the jump off point, earns 1 Fatigue point and will cost “Combat Supply” in the following turn. This is the way we have gone as we believe this is the intended meaning of the rule – a big buildup of troops, aslt transport assets, logistics and then a jump to the target to begin the carnage.
<<to be continued>>
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The movement order rules are not overly complex but there are some issues with clarity and thorougness.
Movement Orders
The last sentence in the introductory paragraph is very important to future orders, both movement and combat. Keep that in mind as we go forward.
Transport Move (1 point) – Here is a rule that probably needs a re-write. The first sentence states that a movement order allows a command “to move one or more Interstellar Map Hexes.” It then goes on to state that only the ‘defend order’ (a defensive order explained below) may be used with a transport order.
This seems self-explanatory but the second paragraph then throws in a sentence where “If a Combat Command spends three or more Orders Points on Transport Move Orders, it may not issue any Offensive Orders, regardless of their cost.”
So which is it? Does a transport move order allow “one or more” hexes or does each hex require its own order. Thus far we have gone with one order per hex if only because this ‘seems’ to be the intent. We have also excluded any offensive orders from being issue with a transport move.
So,… if we are following things as intended transport move orders are required for each hex, and if three move orders are given no offensive orders can be given. It also takes one move to move a planet (discussed later), that said, there is nothing that states this move uses an order point since it does not involve moving from one Interstellar Hex to another. Since moving to a planet is the point of movement (and combat) and the distance is very short in comparison we have assumed this final move does not require a move order. Therefore, CCs that moves three hexes could then move to the planet using its fourth IMP (another later rule :) ) but not its final orders point.
Finally, there is the second sentence of the third paragraph. It should probably have been written as “If a Command was in combat in a *previous* turn, it may not issue more than two Transport Move orders”. The logic for this is curious but it could be intended to show some sort of “friction” imposed on logistics for units extricating themselves from battle. We have used the rule as we think it was intended, “a previous turn”, but most of the time a unit withdrawing from combat uses only one transport move (but 2 IMP) to an adjacent hex and then a repair order (2 order points) so it hasn’t really mattered.
Okay. Having run 2 smaller games and now the bigger one, we always figured that each move point was an order point; we further figured that the idea of 3 pts or more spent on move was more intended in preparation for additional rules - specifically, higher technology in transportation.
We have also agreed that the final movement (in-system) to planets does not count as a move order/part of the transport points.
In our first game, we also interpreted that the order points and time to planet impacted the ability to get TO the planet during an ACS turn. This impacted how many ACS rounds were left to conduct the invasion that round, and often created difficult invasions that did not get much of a chance to do anything before running out of supplies. NOT recommended.
(example: 1 assault order, 1 attack order spent, then time insystem meant that only 4 ACS rounds were left assuming only 1 jump away).
In summary, I agree; this section needs a bit of a re-write due to a lack of clarity. i think we are playing it as intended.
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We were doing this in a similar way for the first couple of turns but the rules actually helped here.
My suggestion is to keep it simple. We also need to look at the sequence of play of the ACS turn to see how the orders, IMP and ACS movement rules interact.
I think the easiest way for me to keep this straight, in my head at least, is by running through an example. Let’s assume the AFFS has two Commands, Command A is one hex away from an enemy planet with a second Command B two hexes away. Command A is given an Aslt Move and Attack Order (offensive) using 2 orders and 3 IMP. Command B is given two Transport Move orders and, since it cannot use offensive orders, issued also issued a Defend order (defensive) using 3 orders and 3 IMP.
The rules do not state that ‘impulse’ movement is used and despite our head canons assuming that CC A jumps into the target hex at the start of ACS turn 1 (deployment) and that CC B would arrive at during ACS turn 3 (deployment/reinforcement), this is not the case. Believe me, I see the fun in having troops arrive throughout the turn and racing to arrive on the planet before ACS turn 8 but let’s stick to the rules as written (at least for now).
On ACS turn 1 both CCA and CCB would deploy in the Zenith, Nadir and or Alternate (pirate) Zones. The ACS sequence of movement has recon executed first (none in this case), then aerospace movement, then ground movement. In our case we use a default of one week to a planet (2 ACS turns) so the dropship’s calculated movement rate is increased accordingly from 1 to 2 (the ASF wings are also increased as per the rules on page 319). This means the earliest the two Commands could land would be after the aerospace movement of ACS turn 2.
Now here some digging for the appropriate rule is required. As the ACS turns are already underway the landing on the PCM (planet) would be treated as reinforcements. This means the arriving troops could not actually be placed on the map until the deployment phase of ACS turn 3 (exception: Combat Drop; see pages 321-322). I’ll expand on the above example in the ACS Turn thread when we get to that part of the rules. :)
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Combat Orders
These rules are pretty straight forward but they do need clarification where the rules have some gaps in their application. Combat Orders are broken into Offensive and Defensive categories.
Offensive Orders
Attack (offensive, 1 point) - Pretty straight forward and to the point, if you want to launch a ‘battle’ or ‘invasion’ you need to use this order, usually in combination with an Aslt Mv order. Attack incurs 1 Fatigue point and will engage combat supply requirements..
Note that it is possible to land on an enemy held planet without an attack order or aslt move but the commands are vulnerable to an “Attack of Opportunity” if the enemy is prepared (not as common as one would think) and has issued a ‘Defend’ order to one or more commands. We have seen this used with overwhelming numbers or when reinforcing a major battle carrying on from one ISaW turn to the next.
Planetary Raid (offensive, 1 point) – a raid is exactly what says it is. Two combat teams (companies) with two squadrons of ASF are sent out to harass the enemy and hopefully cost them some RPs. The actual mechanics of a raid will be discussed below under “Military Actions” so this bit is just about the order itself.
If the defender is not careful raids can be expensive. To the wise House leader there are countermeasures available (later rules) and when in place raids become much more difficult. Countermeasures in turn force Houses to resort to actions that will re-establish conditions where raiding becomes possible again. These conditions normally involve an offensive to disrupt the stability of the front and write down or destroy parts of the enemy’s defences. The pendulum swings back and forth between a stable front and one where raids can take hold and inflict some damage.
While the raid itself costs just 1 orders point, the rules are silent as to how far a command can raid and then recover its troops by the end of the monthly turn. The Movement and IMP system implies such attacks would be limited to one hex range due to the number of order points and IMPs a command may expend but this is not actually stated.
One could argue that a command based on Planet ‘a’ could launch a raid (offensive order) against planet ‘x’ for 1 point, aslt mv (move order) one hex in the opposite direction to planet ‘y’ and then use 1 order point to Attack (offensive order) the planet. By the definition of earlier rules a ‘transport move’ could not be used as this would prohibit the raid in the first place since no offensive orders may be used with transport moves.
The example is a bit strained but I think the point is clear. The rule as written does not provide players with enough details to avoid such confusion. If a raid must use an Assault Move order then raiding ranges would be reduced to just one hex and add a fatigue point to command in question.
Not being sure of the author’s intent the path chosen was to immobilize the command and impose the Transport Move limit of 2 order points (and 3 IMP) and thus two hexes on the raiding CTs. A third hex would disallow the raid. The command thus has one unused order point remaining. I have not been entirely comfortable with this interpretation but we put it to the vote and the majority went with the above.
My personal view is that the above 1 hex range sounds correct. A Raid order must be accompanied by an Aslt Mv order and this limits the Raid to an adjacent hex.
A Raid Order would be written something like this:
1st SOL 2032 (tr), raid (s), aslt mv 2033 (to) – 2 op, 2 imp
Translated this becomes - The 1st Sword of Light in hex 2032 (Tripoli) assault moves to 2033 (Royal) and executes a Supply Raid. Two order points, Two IMPs.
Combat Supply is triggered and the Command picks up 1 Fatigue for the Assault Move.
No fatigue is earned for the Raid itself.
For anyone with more knowledge of the intent of the rule their input would be welcome.
Counter-Insurgency (offensive, 1 point) – should an enemy go to ground this command helps root them out but this is an order that may not be needed except in rare cases. While obtaining hidden status (later rule) is quite possible, retaining it is very difficult if the opposition has aerospace units and can deploy two or more recon formations.
That being said, when necessary COIN combined with a regular recon formations from commands with attack orders and ASF wings will usually quickly round up all hidden formations and finish them off. The cost is combat supply and 2 Fatigue points.
Guerilla Warfare (offensive, 1 point) – Also a rare order in our experience. A command caught in a battle or invasion that requires “Going-to-Ground” will be unlikely to obtain or retain hidden status for long. With all things considered, doing so until ACS turn 8 is most certainly asking for miracles. Since most battles between roughly equal forces see entire commands wrecked in 3 to 5 ACS turns, with mangled CUs in formations breaking/routing/retreating away (if they can manage to disengage), going to ground is not easy. This makes Guerilla Warfare very difficult to arrange. As with COIN the use of aerospace and ground recon makes ‘going-to-ground’ in the hope of launching a guerilla war in a following turn very, very difficult. We have not had a successful, worthwhile example in 16 game turns.
Shield (offensive, 0 points) – A useful order but another that has proven extremely hard to implement. The order applies to an entire command rather than just a few formations in hexes on the PCM or planetary maps. This adds another complication. The shielded formations must stack with the shield formation which puts the shield at an immediate disadvantage due to stacking limits (16 CUs). Movement is also done by formation so it is entirely possible for ‘shield’ and ‘shielded’ to be in two separate hexes when engaged. If the shield formation is engaged by the enemy before being reunited with the shielded formation, or vis-versa, how is the rule to work? A shield order is supposed to make attacking the ‘shielded’ Formation impossible and the shielded formation is also supposed be incapable of fighting. That said, what if the shield formation is destroyed or routes away, exposing the shielded formation? This is not covered in the rule.
However, ‘Shield’ can work when both sides have large numbers of commands on a planet (our Kessel campaign) and the shielded Formations can be hidden. If one side is outnumbered you may lose both the shield and shielded formations despite the intent of the rule (our DCs experience with the 2nd and 14th Legion of Vega). We have found no way to justify not being able to attack a known shielded unit that no longer has a shield. To cover such events we have applied the regular rule limitations on the shielded unit, ie: repair Restrictions or cancelled rest orders, etc.
Shield costs 2 fatigue points and twice the regular combat supply costs. Thus a command with a basic supply of 11 would need 88 RPs (basic supply x4 for combat supply x2 for shield). Another reason Shield has seen little use.
Commerce Raid (offensive, 1 point) - a motivating order more than a threat as it can be easily countered by commands placed on planets that possess at least a PV value 50% of the raiding command. Patrols also block Commerce Raids.
Commerce Raids trigger combat supply for the command but no Fatigue.
This means using a command large enough to force the defender to deploy sizeable commands on industrial worlds and (district) capitals will require a large outlay for combat supply. Commerce raiders and Commands to defend against them tend to tie down regular House Commands on both sides of the border (as they probably should).
That said, once the enemy has placed commands on his high value worlds and employed a few patrols the damage inflicted plummets and commerce raiding becomes more sporadic. Raiding becomes a guessing game as both sides try to ascertain when a commerce raid might be successfully launched or when a patrol is needed to block one. With a GM, players will not even know if their raids were successful, they only know when and where a Commercial raid has actually hit them and caused the loss of RPs.
Summary for Offensive Orders
Attack, Planetary Raid (more on raids later) and Commerce Raid, are the main tools of the offensive. COIN, Guerilla and Shield are possible but conditions to apply them effectively can be tough to establish. Thus far we haven’t seen too much use of the latter three orders but I am surprised now and again. Mileage may vary, of course.
<<to be continued>>
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Defensive Orders
Defensive commands are easier to apply but again, if you are not expecting an attack the cost in RPs and fatigue for a permanent ‘stand to’ is simply not possible. However, if your intelligence efforts point to an attack on a planet defensive orders can assist in the defence at the cost of some operational and sometimes tactical flexibility.
Fortify (defensive, 1 point) – this order pins a command’s formations in the hex they are in but enemy damage is reduced by 10%. Unlike the defend order (below) it does not restrict tactical choices and is thus worthwhile if you need to defend a fixed position such as a factory, capital or spaceport on the planetary map. The trade-off is that otherwise slow units such as aslt Mechs, aslt armour and artillery can waltz up to the objective without harassment and begin pounding the defence. The fortified Formation cannot be reinforced by other units from the same command as any Ground Formation in the command that moves voids the order for the entire command.
This seems a strange restriction but the rule in this case is very clear – “If a fortified Combat Command moves, it loses all benefits”. One would have thought the restriction would apply to a Formation, the status of which could be tracked on the record sheet without too much fuss. On the other hand, Orders are given to Commands, not Formations so the rule is consistent in that sense.
It costs combat supply and 1 Fatigue point to build the fortifications, plus the regular basic supply for the unit that turn. If combat occurs in the same turn a command fortifies, the cost to fortify and fight would be 2x combat supply plus the additional fatigue for any other order or ACS turns in combat. The benefits of ‘Fortify’ accumulate with other orders such as Dig-In and Defend (below). That said, “Digging-In” is cheaper and gains the same benefits so Fortify may not be used by many.
Dig-In (defensive, 1 point) – Digging in costs less in RPs and fatigue but gives the same benefits as Fortify. The command must pay its regular supply in addition to other supply costs to dig-in or maintain the entrenchments and subtracts -10%from damage received. Digging in does not add any fatigue to a command other those normally imposed for being in combat or from other orders so it is in many ways better than fortify. The effects are cumulative with Defend (below).
Defend (defensive, 1 point) – This order is another head scratcher. It offers certain bonuses but in many other ways is a potential detriment to the command.
The bonus comes from a reduction by 10% of damage received and being able to get in an extra round of combat against an enemy landing on the planet that used a transport move (the ‘attack of opportunity, page 312). This can be damaging as the tables on page 308 gives such an attack a -2 to the to-hit TN. That said the drawbacks may make the AoO (attack of opportunity) not worth the handicaps.
Defend imposes a decrease in base damage inflicted by -10% by the command but at the same time the command may only use “defensive tactics”. Unfortunately, “Defensive Tactics” (page 316) are used to lessen damage received but does nothing to (directly) increase damage inflicted. Solace can be taken here in that the -2 to-hit TN can make the applying defensive tactics easier but there are risks, some that are serious, should the attack “fail”. Finally, the formations committed to an AoO are now locked in combat for the actual first game turn, probably a fair distance from support, and will need to win an end phase “engagement control” DR to withdraw. Not necessarily a promising start to the battle if outnumbered. That said, with some luck, or mistakes by the opponent, the formations so attacked could be savaged. Maybe….
That’s the risk of using the AoO.
If a command forgoes an AoO and uses “Defend” along with “Fortify” or “Dig-in” the base damage received can be reduced by a 20% but the Formations in the command are immobilized if they want to retain this benefit. The tactical restrictions (only ‘Defensive Tactics; page 316) are still there which means the formations need to be in close to make “Defensive Tactics” more usable (and avoid further hurting your own combat abilities). This sounds counterintuitive,…and it is. Closing the range to implement defensive tactics means the enemy is more likely to score their own hits supported by even mildly “aggressive” tactics, which can offset the decrease in damaged received by the formation's own defensive tactics.
It can work, make no mistake but it is very tricky because “tactics” are chosen (during attack declaration) before the range is known. If the range determined by the manoeuvre DR ends up at medium or long range then ‘defensive tactics’ bonuses are very hard to implement as the to-hit numbers are so much more difficult to 'score' with at longer ranges.
For those of you with blank stares out there I will post an example of a full ACS turn over in the ACS thread once the review of the rule set is complete.
Defend is a rule with complicated nuances that needs a thorough understanding to avoid having it backfire on the defence.
The Defend order imposes combat supply on the following turn but Fatigue is only earned if there is actual combat.
<<to be continued>>
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Defensive Orders, continued
Going to Ground (defensive, 1 point) – as the order implies a command that is facing a lot of trouble may want to ‘go to ground’ but this is easier said than done. The first issue is that you almost need to be clairvoyant to know that you are in trouble before trouble arrives. Once you are staring trouble in the face it is often too late to go to ground unless the opposition lets you. This is mainly due to the need to survive a potential 8 ACS combat rounds that make up a month. The side winning the battle can often deploy the necessary recon formations supported by AS support to spot the formations that may try to ‘go dogo’ and mop them up in combat. What little might remain at the end of turn 8 may not be worth the effort of issuing the order the following month (the next ISaW turn).
A command that goes to ground rolls on the table on page 357 and that percentage of the survivors can go to ground. Of the remaining CUs 50% of the balance lost to attrition and 50% surrender (free salvage for the winner). The command may also lose morale (and face surrender/desertion) as well as automatically becoming ‘unsupplied’, with the usual implications in ACS for future battles under Guerilla Warfare, COIN and “Sustained Neglect”. There is also nothing to stop the enemy troops on the planet from using normal recon rules for hunting survivors as the rules do not cancel the benefits and limitations faced by hidden units under the constraints from the ‘hidden formation’ rules on page 315.
Fatigue is earned normally from other orders and ACS combat.
Scatter (defensive, 1point) – a drastic order with the following restrictions – commands “may not engage in any of the following Orders: Training, all Movement orders, all Offensive orders except Guerilla Warfare”. Scatter is also tough to implement for many of the same reasons as ‘going-to-ground.
Scatter is intended to avoid orbital bombardment but it has other uses similar to going-to-ground (but better). Once discovered by COIN operations, fighting is handicapped by paragraph three of the rule which states that commands that scatter can only be used in recon formations. This may seem a benefit but recon formations are at a handicap in engagement control (see SBF/ACS). Once engaged by the COIN formations, recon formations usually come out the worse for wear even with both sides reducing damage inflicted by 50%.
All the same time if a rescue force can be sent quickly, a command may survive scattering. If you can launch the relief force the same turn the other command ‘Scatters’ this order may be better than going to ground. By Scattering, losses to attrition can be recovered without effecting experience.
Scattering adds 1 to Fatigue and the command must pay combat supplies if it can be pushed through enemy lines.
Patrol (defensive, 1 point) – a worthwhile order to counter enemy (commerce) raiding and potentially help defend planets. Patrols add 25% of their aerospace PV to any planet within two hexes (at the Zenith or Nadir Points on the SSRM) and add a -2 to raid insertion DR (later rule). Depending on their size, when combined with other defenders, Patrols can affect both raiding and planetary attacks. Overlapping patrols can be very serious threat to enemy incursions.
As Patrols trigger combat supplies, smaller purpose built commands are best used for this order. The command also picks up 1 Fatigue point each turn on Patrol but this can be reduced by various methods.
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Patrol (defensive, 1 point) – a worthwhile order to counter enemy (commerce) raiding and potentially help defend planets. Patrols add 25% of their aerospace PV to any planet within two hexes (at the Zenith or Nadir Points on the SSRM) and add a -2 to raid insertion DR (later rule). Depending on their size, when combined with other defenders, Patrols can affect both raiding and planetary attacks. Overlapping patrols can be very serious threat to enemy incursions.
As Patrols trigger combat supplies, smaller purpose built commands are best used for this order. The command also picks up 1 Fatigue point each turn on Patrol but this can be reduced by various methods.
As stated in my own previous, Patrol has been essential in our game. Using the simplified Raid system, the penalty for insertion is a must and therefore saps the RPs of the powers. It's also worth noting that the Patrol action de facto adds the "missing" aerospace element that you speak about for garrisons.
What I am more curious about is the interplay and interaction of the Patrol action and the Naval Engagement Battle. As we have currently interpreted it, due to the fact that it states that Patrol adds 1/4 of the aero strength, it also opens the game up to naval engagements significantly. In our case, aerospace clashes between powers on both sides willing to engage each other rely simply on fighting against the Patrol group.
This has increased aero attrition substantially, as killer groups wipe out the aero elements of a combat command, which then in turn must retreat and rebuild and have their patrol assets cycled again.
What is your interpretation of the interaction between naval engagement Attack order with the Patrol order?
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Military Actions
Training Centres – build your training centers and use them. There is really no need to train a command anywhere else as the cost is simply too high in RPs and gains too slow compared to a training centre. If higher quality troops are needed the money and time spent on training outside of centers could be better used raising a new command with higher values. It might be worth saving at least one training command for a system with a shipyard for training up naval commands (house rule).
Movement - The IMP rules are very easy to use. The only thing we could not see was whether a command must spend its 4th IMP to land on planet or not while in transit. If so, this limits regular movement to 3 interstellar hexes per turn (seems fine). We decided that if a command must be rushed to a destination sooner then the command can ‘remain in space”, expending 4 IMP in movement from jump to jump (4 hexes) but we have the entire command picks up 2 Fatigue Points.
Pirate Point movement also becomes much more attractive with the Espionage rules for “System Reconnaissance”. Deploying an Aerospace defence is much more tricky when the bad guys arrive somewhere other the P1 or P4 of the SSRM. If you want to risk a command, a Middle Zone Pirate Point jump can cut the travel time to a planet in half.
Raid
A rather in depth rule with a number of options to consider that impose decisions on both attacker and defender.
As often happens, after an area suffers a raid the enemy commands will start to mount alternating “Patrols” which counter Commerce Raids entirely and badly affect Planetary Raids Insertion DR. As a raid will cost a standard command combat supply for the following turn the expense can often exceed any damage done to the target world(s).
Raids come in five flavours:
- Recon Raid
- Supply Raid
- Disruption Raid
- Equipment Raids
- Industrial Raids
At first we thought Recon Raids might fade away with the arrival of Espionage: Planetary Forces but a Recon Raid can still net more detailed information than espionage can. This especially true of results 6 – 8.
The Raid execution rules offer players a quick combat and detailed combat system for resolving raids. We have gone almost exclusively with detailed combat for House raids, especially for Disruption/Industrial Raids, as will be explained below. Our pirate raids are often done using quick resolution but not always.
The quick combat resolution allows a GM to rapidly resolve quite a few raids with just a few DRs. The attacker and defenders can affect the ‘Insertion DR’ in a number of ways, the most important being via ‘pirate point jump’ (+4 attacker), ‘active patrol’ and 200+ AS PV in system (-2 each, defender). The attacker can gain an additional +1 for an active commerce raid but these raids are easily shut down entirely by a patrol so this mod usually only applies to the opening raid in a region. An additional +2 can gained by having a successful Recon Raid hit the target the previous turn.
**Note the tables on Page 359 have an error where there is no 2D6 result of ‘5’. The numbers run from 1-4 and then 6-14+ for both tables so effected. We simply modified the number sequence to run from 2-14 and the problem was solved.
The pirate point use comes with a risk as the raiders must risk a 2 or 3 DR to appear in the outer zone, or a 2, 3, or 4 to appear in the middle zone. This DR can be modified by a -1 for a successful Espionage: System Reconnaissance. In the current game 4 raids have never arrived due to jump failures. If the defender can stack up enough negative modifiers on the Insertion Table a final DR of 1 also results in a jump failure. That said,… a final ‘1’ is all but impossible if the attacker simply declares the pirate jump point use in the first place. This may have been an oversight missed during playtest.
The insertion result can force the raiders to engage in a space battle against defending AS forces equaling a percentage of the PV belonging to the attacker (50% to 150%) which can lead to interesting times. This forces raiders to fight their way to the planet. In ‘Detailed Combat’ the insertion results will also determine the PV available to the defending ground forces once on the ground.
If there is no space battle, or if the raiders fight their way through to the planet, the quick resolution action switches to the Raid Success Table on page 359. Another set of +/- modifiers for both sides can affect the final DR which generally involves failure or success to varying degrees. If the raid is even a little bit successful there will be more +/- modifiers for the Raid Results Table on page 360.
**Note the Raid Results Table for Disruption/Industrial raids has typos. For results 2 through 8 the “As result #” should be reduced by one (1). For example, 1D6 result of 2 should read ‘As result 1 (planet does not generate any income for 3 turn). Raiders also do 2 RP worth of damage to the planet’s industrial base. Subtract this from the Factions budget in the next turn.”
The quick resolution method works quite well for recon, supply and equipment raids but is total bust (in my opinion) for Disruption and Industrial Raids. In short, so long as the raid is even marginally successful enough to merit a DR on the results table the planet will be shut down for a minimum of two (2) months. No RPs will be generated for those turns at all, from any source.
Why is this a problem? Well,… what this means is that Luthien, Tharkad, Atreus, and so on, with large aerospace garrisons and fortified factories are exposed to losing all their income for 2 – 4 months, suffer infrastructure (factory) damage and even have entire factories shut down by this raid type. In the case of Luthien (in fact, most capitals), for example, that is a loss of 120 RPs for each turn all caused by just two combat teams. These could be even be infantry (size 1) CTs as the type isn’t all that important in the quick resolution system (and infantry are size 1 so they retain their -1 DR for being “all Light Elements”.
Once raiders are ‘on the ground’ Factories inside fortifications (ie: Tikonov) or guarded by entire combat commands are just as exposed as an “other” planet on the edge of nowhere. This is why we use detailed combat for these two raid types (most raids, in fact). Deploying two CTs for combat via (Adv) BF or (Adv) SBF makes the raider fight for such consequential results which are, and should be, very tough to achieve. Detailed Combat also forces the raider to choose carefully as the Insertion Result can adjust the defender PV. A successful but problematic Raid Insertion may find the raiders facing a better prepared defender than they had counted on.
<<to be continued>>
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In regards to raids, regardless of rules type (whether using simple resolution or ACS), another major use of raids we are finding in our game is that of psy-ops.
What I mean is, high morale units cycle to the front with good skill (if possible) and then raid areas and units specifically to engage them; while both sides have the potential to lose, a "regular" unit if they lose and having only normal morale may have a chance of drifting into a Morale level that may require worse desertion/mutiny checks.
Current example; the Wolf's Dragoons have been raiding the Draconis March and hitting a number of different Draconis March Militia units. Several times, these units have been stung by defeat, and their morale has drifted into the Low region due to the rules for SO meaning that they lost a combat/raid, and failed their morale loss roll (meanwhile, the Dragoons mostly have morale of 2 on all their units, except Epsilon Regiment, which has failed ops and dice rolls consistently, now having a morale of 4).
Bringing those militia units up to a 5 morale (Low) means that they make desertion rolls on a 4, and a mutiny check on a 2. That may not sound like much, but with an RCT and checks made on a regiment level, desertion of entire battalions of mechs could theoretically occur with a roll of a 2, and infantry regiments are deserting on a 4 or less!
Admittedly, a loss could get the raider to instead lose their morale (and the defending unit gains morale); which is why its important to use units that have good morale.
Another area that has had this to good effect is oddly, the Lyran border. The newly formed 6th Regulan Hussars, replacing the 9th (which mutinied and turned merc after a number of defeats, and now serves with the Taurian Concordat) has also faced several bad raid defeats. Humiliated, the once proud Regulans started at having 3 battalions of mechs, 2 air wings, 9 armour battalions, 8 infantry regiments and an artillery battalion. They're now at 2 mech battalions (1 lost in battle, not currently replaced), 2 air wings, 3 armour battalions (3 battalions deserted and went merc, rest are combat loss) NO infantry regiments and an artillery battalion. The infantry were again, half killed but the other half deserted (1 regiment actually mutinied but because not enough of the unit deserted they simply counted as deserted). The 6th is well on its way to being destroyed just as its predecessor was... all because the Lyran Stealthy Tiger mercs keep picking away at them. (and the Dragon's Breath on occasion too).
Due to the CC advantage towards morale checks for desertion, this is not something that has been attempted on the CC much (though it was with great amusement that Justinia's Cuirassiers, an elite unit, suffered the ONLY desertion in the entire Confederation game, and they had started with a morale of 2) but all the other powers have experienced this psy-op type of attack.
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BTW, as I haven't posted stuff in awhile about the game. I was away on vacation, so that delayed a few turns.
However, turns 10-15:
The Capellan Confederation desperately continues to protect their industry. Raids are mostly repulsed finally. THe CC finally seems to be settling into a good strategy of defence.
The DC launches a campaign of raiding. On the FS front, the Wolf's Dragoons engage multiple targets, disrupting several Draconis March Militia units. In response, the Suns deploys the Eridani Light Horse in an attempt to slow down the raiding, and prevent further demoralization of the national forces. The Eridani give almost as well as they receive, and in one example, severely punish Epsilon Regiment of the Dragoons while working alongside the Deneb Light Cavalry.
On the Lyran Front, the DCMS is not as well positioned for raiding; part of this is due to the expiry of a few mercenary contracts that have since signed on with other powers. Partly it's that Lyran forces are heavily concentrated in the area now, and the Legions of Vega are used mostly in raids that demoralize them further. Newly deployed units along the Lyran border however, seem to be having some frightening success. Dubbed the "Ghost Hunter" regiment, it's a newly deployed DMCS unit that has its own jumpships, 1 battalion light mechs, 1 battalion light LAMs, 1 battalion medium LAMS and 3 regiments of light armour, plus the standard 3 air wings of a DCMS unit. An experiment thought up by the Coordinator himself, this unit has deployed on headhunting missions successfully on the Lyran border, brutalizing many much heavier regiments and their counterparts.
The FWL continues to suffer from many poor rolls for relations with Parliament. However, the Captain General finally has the resources that he has begun launching sporadic raids supplemented by special ops team attacks at Hesperus II, from the staging area of Zaniah, captured over a year previous. Lyran raids at Zaniah fail. The Lyrans then launch 2 failed strikes at Zaniah; the first is aborted in space, due to heavy aero losses. The second lands a few regiments of the Donegal Guards and the Skye Rangers, but they are forced to withdraw with heavy losses. The early losses of Nockatunga and Colfax are still bitterly felt by the FWL, however, and Lyran forces continue to harass Thermopolis even after a failed attack by the 3rd Fusiliers of Oriente and the newly formed 6th Regulan Hussars (who are the only Regulan unit being allowed to be used due to the Home Defence Act). the 6th then suffer the further indignity of repeated raids on them, and morale drops sharply, with the unit being hit hard by desertion. FWL worlds suffer wave upon wave of terror attacks by Lyran Loki Operatives, who cripple several worlds (including Irian) as well as damage a number of different research projects to restore technology. (Gamemaster note: the Lyrans have had the luckiest spec ops teams - even with Superior Black Ops - of anybody in game. We're tracking one team that has survived since the beginning of the game who really should retire, after 6 successful Black Ops, 3 sabotage missions - if there were an Elite status for spec ops, they would have it, but they're "only" Veterans).
The Federated Suns, suffering from Draconis predation, tones down their raiding operations against the CC. Pirates also raid the Davion Outback, making off with valuable supplies. A minor incident with the Taurians costs some resources in an attempt to make peace, or at least prove to the Taurians that there is no "imminent Davion incursion" on their border. The Federated Suns has adopted a mostly defensive stance, though a recon raid on Scituate (captured by the Capellans) was rebuffed.
The Lyrans... ah, the Lyrans. Having been incredibly busy, with a robust economy, the Lyrans launched a small suicide strike on Luthien itself, damaging several key facilities. Loki operatives have run amok throughout the FWL (and on occasion, the CC, though no one can prove it...). Zaniah has proven to be an irritant, as Hesperus II has suffered several raids (one of which even damaged some of the lines) but raids and assaults have so far failed to overcome the defences there. Increasing the defences of Hesperus II has slowed the Marik raids, and Lyran mercenaries have hit several key areas along the FWL border, mostly making mockeries of local defenders. Also, the operation to destroy pirate bases has gone well; the worlds are now garrisoned, and while the 11th Donegal Guards experienced almost total destruction (and subsequent desertion), the Valkyrate was subdued and destroyed.
The Periphery powers remain mostly quiet, other than a minor incident between Houses Davion and Calderon. However, some pundits are concerned about the growing economic power of the Magistracy of Canopus. The Outworlds Alliance also has added a new Guards regiment to their rolls, deployed along the Draconis border...
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Had to create ACS stats for LAMs for the DCMS, btw.
lt: sz 1 mv 6 transport mp NA tmm 5 arm 30 s 9 m 3 l 0 pv? specials RCN, LAM 3LLAM
med: sz 2 mv 5 transport mp NA tmm 5 arm 33 s 9 m 6 l 0 pv? specials LAM 3MLAM
As the DMCS has battletechnology of 4, they've chosen to up all the attack stats by 3 points (1 per team), above and beyond. Not included in above calculations.
This was my first time converting stats, so please let me know if my conversion to ACS was wrong, btw. I assumed Stinger LAMs only for the Lights (because it's DCMS and they have the Lexatech facility) and phoenix hawk LAMs for the mediums.
Notably, the medium LAMs are really not worth it. Meanwhile, the Light LAMs are pretty good, though inferior to a light mech battalion at medium range for firepower, the extra TMM seems to be worthwhile. It could possibly be worthwhile to have a "light" LAM battalion that was actually composed to 2 light and 1 medium company as the stats would be a bit better but we went with this for now.
I was torn; giving the Medium LAM battalion Recon ability could have been fitting. We have not currently. Thoughts?
Note also the utility in headhunting missions, and raiding missions.
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How does the system model LAM strategic and operational (vice tactical) mobility?
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How does the system model LAM strategic and operational (vice tactical) mobility?
It's their mobility on the land map that helps, honestly. They simply fly over intervening units and with recon advantage, hit rear area units such as infantry that are unaccompanied or are trying to recover/repair. Also, taking out isolated, unprotected artillery formations. They're hard to hit as well. however, as I note, they're fragile for armour.
So far, in headhunter missions, they've been murderous in wiping out the attached mech formation of one Lyran unit, then withdrawing. In another, they chose the other method; they killed off all the Lyran support units, then withdrew. Neither were a knock-out blow, admittedly. Both times used so far, they've achieved their mission objectives, then fled before sustaining damage that would destroy them utterly.
So... I guess that's a win? Note: both times deployed, they were against either a Green or Regular unit. I suspect an Elite unit would still take them out, because they'd hit better and for more damage. Both missions, the LAM units came back with a high degree of damage that needed to be repaired - due to their distinct lack of firepower, they have to close to short range to do much, and that means that even with high TMM, they get hit (especially by short range infantry troops - sheer quantity of shots).
My DC player provided the following feedback: "Knowing when to retreat with a LAM unit before they get killed by damage is absolutely essential - assume that you can only lay down about 2 rounds of attacks before withdrawing, so pick your targets well with good recon intell."
We have not (yet) seen them used in a Simplified Raid mission, as the player of it is still experimenting and it wouldn't take advantage of the LAM advantages, in our opinion. Actually, they've not been used in a Raid mission at all, though when they do, I've promised that at least for that, we will use SBF/ACS.
Addendum; there are a few other units that have a LAM battalion or two in our combat musters, based on fluff of the era. Specifically: the Marik Guard, the 3rd Fusiliers of Oriente, the Home Guard of the Stewart Dragoons, the 41st Avalon Hussars and parts of the Dismal Disinherited.
Of those, only the 3rd Fusiliers of Oriente have seen action (twice), once in defence and once on the attack; the LAMs there however contributed to their aero defence, driving off the Lyran attackers before they even arrived on-world. When the 3rd attacked alongside a Regulan Hussar regiment, the LAMs again came in handy, savaging enemy ground forces protecting local air, but Lyran heavy defences forced the rest of the FWL forces to retreat before they could be used extensively (aka: the Lyrans massed a Wall of Steel and charged and crushed a Regulan battalion and badly damaged the rest of the FWL forces while the LAMs were off raiding)
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Luck of the dice in this campaign is DEFINITELY With the Lyrans, btw. Most of their major engagements, even with penalties for the Inferior Doctrine (aka Social Generals), they've rolled really well, as has their special ops. Even their technology rolls have gone well for them.
The only thing that hasn't gone well for them is that the FWL has been successfully using special ops against Hesperus II (and to a lesser extent, Tharkad), even when they have needed 9s or 10s to hit! Heh.
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So the "Mv 6" reflects a Stinger LAM's AirMech mode mobility?
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So the "Mv 6" reflects a Stinger LAM's AirMech mode mobility?
Nope. That's the land mode. But its the fact that the LAM can also do aero move that really allows it to shine. ACS from what we can tell doesn't really "do" the airmech mode - just accounts for it in stats by giving an additional +1 TMM. Which, I just realized, was not accounted for for the Medium LAM. durn it.
+2 for move, +2 for jump, and +1 for LAM/WiGe. For some reason I left that out. ARGH
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Ah, the "mv" doubles as the aero movement... thanks!
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Thank you! And I'm curious whether my conversion is correct too. Now with different (and slightly TMM). It makes a LAM really hard to hit, actually.
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As soon as I get some more of the HBS game out of my system, I'll take a dive into the SBF, ACS and ISAW rules. You and The Purist have really intrigued me with the more abstract aspects of the game!
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As stated in my own previous, Patrol has been essential in our game. Using the simplified Raid system, the penalty for insertion is a must and therefore saps the RPs of the powers. It's also worth noting that the Patrol action de facto adds the "missing" aerospace element that you speak about for garrisons.
Not really. Patrols are almost useless in defending against raids. A Patrol must set up in Sector P1 or P4 of the Periphery Zone while raiders almost universally arrive in the Middle or Outer Zones, so placed to reach the planet as quickly as possible. A Patrol will also seldom exceed the size of two light ASF fighter squadrons, or 26 PV. A raiding force could be made up of two heavy ASF squadrons. If a fighter garrison is not present the attacker can easily out run or overmatch any Patrol. If a garrison is present on an "other" system (50 PV), usually an ad hoc collection of squadrons, the attacker needs to be more circumspect in his selection of raiding PV. If a garrison is present and the raider chooses fighter support that is too heavy, and the Insertion result is unfavourable, he might not even reach the planet.
What I am more curious about is the interplay and interaction of the Patrol action and the Naval Engagement Battle. As we have currently interpreted it, due to the fact that it states that Patrol adds 1/4 of the aero strength, it also opens the game up to naval engagements significantly. In our case, aerospace clashes between powers on both sides willing to engage each other rely simply on fighting against the Patrol group.
Of course Patrols are vulnerable to naval attacks, they are patrols, not naval commands. The abstract intent of the rule, correctly, in my view, prevents patrols from being destroyed. As per the rules a Patrol can lend 1/4 of its PV to every system in range be there 4, 8, 10 or 20 systems within two hexes of the Patrol's base. However, while you are limited by PV you are not limited by type of unit that might make up the Patrol. Patrols are an abstract representation, not concrete fixed assets. You could fight the same PV in ten different battles and not destroy the Patrol wing. As noted above, these will normally amount to little more than two light squadrons unless the Patrol is unusually large, which defeats the economic benefit of smaller versions. At the same time the benefit of light squadrons is that they are very hard to engage and hard to kill. They can also be deployed in one of two zones so their actual location is a guess for the attacker. Initiative and Tactics Values also allow the light squadrons to simply fall back if the attacker guesses right prior to deployment. Long term, the hunter is only going to guess the right Periphery Sector 50% of the time. Considering the size of a force needed to kill those two squadrons, the RP balance (economics) favours the Patrol.
If a friendly Command is present then they can also deploy 1/4 of their force with the Patrol. Note that garrison wings cannot deploy beyond the Inner Zone. Most of the rest of the defenders can deploy far enough forward to quickly join the battle if desired. Ambushing a Patrol should not be easy and is actually a lot like using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.
This weakness (small PV) is one of the prime movers behind our developing the naval commands that are not linked to the planet's defender deployment limits. Another fix is to simply support the Patrol on higher value world's with regular CCs. I would also ask, where are the other guy's own forces? If ones own Patrol's are being stalked, are the hunters being hunted? Also, if enemy commands are chasing Patrol's they are not defending planets. How many planet's were taken while their commands were trying to open raiding options?
This has increased aero attrition substantially, as killer groups wipe out the aero elements of a combat command, which then in turn must retreat and rebuild and have their patrol assets cycled again.
Aerospace is very powerful so you need to guard against kill stacks and death stars. With all the deployment options open to the defender as well as the fact that undetected AS Formations are hidden on the SSRM, smaller Aerospace Formations can hide within the system. We have also recently adopted 'Command Control' limits based on the LR rating of the Force Commander (page 367). A veteran Force can still bring six (6) CC from three (3) systems but he can only use four of them without suffering Uncoordinated penalties found on page 362 (or is it 361?), at least in space for now.
Morale of the story is sportsmanship. Players who try to exploit weaknesses in the rules could find themselves spending an hour setting up the battle and then two hours chasing blips to no avail. As GM I try to discourage "gamey" tactics and rarely need to with sportsmen. However, we've been gaming as a group on and off since the 90s and I started war games in 1974, so it rarely becomes an issue. Once identified weaknesses can be fixed by players if they choose to maintain 'spirit' of the rules over 'letter'. :thumbsup:
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Happily, my group are not focusing on exploiting the rules either, though the danger of aero exploitation is still present as you say (similar to the old ISiF game).
The necessity of having a mech unit attached helps at least.
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<<Apologies,... I've been away on leave and hiking the mountains is not all that conducive to posting on the forums. :) >>
Military Actions, Part II
Battle – Due to the limits of forces that can be sent to a planet to engage in a “Battle” we soon learned that this ‘Action’ has its limits, despite some very nice modifiers that can be used by the attacker. These days, battles are rare and now are primarily used by naval commands.
‘Headhunting’ is one of the battles where modifiers help out the attacker quite handily and the defender will suffer losses. That said, once players got the hang of the combat system (and its brutal casualty rates) it has been discovered that it is much easier and safer if the entire command is brought along even though it forfeits the modifiers. Keep in mind this does change a ‘battle’ to an ‘invasion’. The result is effectively the same, defender comes out to fight and one side or the other will get mangled. We’ve had more than one headhunting mission run afoul of prepared defences supported by defending artillery, heavy armour with infantry CUs deployed to absorb damage points (one does not always get to choose where the damage is allocated). At the same time the attacker, usually numerically inferior, is taking his lumps against his best or most mobile CUs in the attacking command(s). Some of these missions had us asking just whose head was being hunted. Head Hunting did result in armies deploying a minimum of a full command, one merc or small command plus the garrison on planets. In important sectors it is not unusual to see two full army commands (plus) holding a planet.
‘Infrastructure Destruction’ battles have been used a few times but many of the same issues arise that are found in head hunting. A weakened combat command or two is sent in against the full weight of the defending forces on the planet. More often than not this will involve a factory placed inside a fortification and supported by mobile elements. A Standard-2 fort can hold a factory and has damage values of 8/8/5 along with 200 points of armour (which takes time to wear down). Since players tend to fortify all industrial worlds within a few hexes of the frontiers (including new builds) attacking factories becomes an exercise in siege warfare and less a matter of ‘smash and grab’ campaigns.
In summary, ‘Battles’ are risky if the enemy has an entire command or more to defend planets and factories. The limits on attacker resources means little can be spared to be sent after the factory in the fortifications. If headhunting is the goal, a smaller attacking force needs to pay close attention to damage levels and their ability to win engagement DRs lest they be chewed to pieces when pinned in a hex. Factories in fortifications become a nightmare to damage and a factory has the means to shoot back, quite effectively in fact. If there is only a garrison the attacker might as well take the planet with intact infrastructure, then later, if desired, simply destroy the factories and leave. However, that too, can often be more easily said than done.
Invasion – To be honest this is the main tool used in our campaign game. Commands are committed, they fight and win or are (often) largely destroyed in the process. In fact, a force that is only outnumbered by as little as 20% (the size of a merc command added to a standard command) is likely to be soundly defeated unless there is a fairly pronounced qualitative advantage in favour of the smaller force. “Invasion” gains the maximum benefit for the expense of RPs (which a command pays whether it ‘raids’ or conducts ‘battles’). This results in conquered planets and dead enemy commands but the cost is high. An attacking force with only a small superiority in strength can often lose 65-85% of its strength in ACS combat in just a few turns.
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End Phase, Part I
Salvage/Repair – Salvage/Repair rules work very well and in an invasion that pits 3-4 commands per side the ACS system can generate well over 1000 damage points in just 1 ACS turn (just 3.5 days). When the defeated side quits a planet a good die roll can net the victor a significant haul of armour points to conduct future repairs. The only addition we made was that salvage had to be assigned to units during that end phase or the salvage had to be placed in a planetary depot in the capital or other city/base, spaceport or factory hex. These depots could then be accessed by any battered command that drops by. This also means these depots could be captured if not destroyed or consumed by the time the enemy takes possession of the planet.
The transfer of armour points from one CU to another is a favourite of our group. Badly shot up commands may be quickly brought up to strength by absorbing remnants of a command that is in even worse shape. In this manner crippled commands can be done away with to save on future supply costs and RPs put to better use building new commands.
We did force such CUs to average the experience points of the unit that absorbs armour from another command, a deviation from the normal rule regarding no change if 25% or less armour is repaired. This helps avoid an elite CU absorbing green armour points from another command without effecting overall experience levels. For example a veteran Draconis medium Mech CU with 26 experience points that has lost 30 of 36 armour and absorbs 9 armour from a regular CU with 16 Experience would have its experience reduced to 20 XP and reduced to a regular quality unit with 15 armour.
Using RPs (1 RP = 80 armour) is the most common method for repairs and is also very economical. A standard Davion command, for example, might range from 600 to 700 armour points and would normally lose about 225-350 armour in a successful battle that lasts 4-6 ACS turns. Two or three such commands could be repaired for as little as 2 RP over a period of two or three turns, if trying to protect the experience level. Since most players will spread repairs over a number of turns the RP cost seldom run more than 6 to 10 RP per turn (480 to 800 armour points). In heavy campaigns (our current FWL/LC fight over the Isle of Skye), this might run up to 12-14 RP.
Retreat – it has been our experience that the only time ‘commands’ manage a retreat off world is if the victor allows it. Otherwise, Combat Units and Formations in ACS are simply destroyed due to damage and failed morale checks. Once units become unsteady or worse they are unlikely to win an Engagement Roll to exit the hex. Combat Units that retreat via ‘rout’ or ‘retreat’ are usually run down by small, light pursuit formations before they can get away. If ‘honours of war’ house rules are not used destruction is generally assured. ‘Overwhelming Force’ (OF) is a way out for poorer quality troops but, again, only if ‘honours of war’ are granted. Otherwise, the defeated are reduced to salvage. In fact, the chances of Regular quality or better commands getting away by the OF method are minimal. It is far more likely they will be shot to pieces on the battlefield and turned into salvage. They can only hope to go down fighting and taking more than a pound of flesh in exchange.
Retreats can also be blocked by pinning an opponent in combat at the end of game turn 8 in ACS which prevents the command from pulling out during the next ISaW turn. The engagement rules prohibit a formation from leaving a hex while engaged which means access to their dropships is blocked. As commands cannot be split (ie: pinned forces cannot be abandoned) this means the entire command needs to fight it out, try to ‘Go-to-Ground’ or ‘Scatter’ on the following turn, an unlikely event for defeated Commands. The end result is almost always the same, a dead command. Hopefully the attacker has been savaged at the same time.
The argument for Honours of war is that it avoids further damage to the winning side, making repairs easier and quicker, allowing the command to rejoin the campaign. Nevertheless, it is not unheard of for targeted commands to be destroyed despite the cost.
One bit of information is missing from the rules. Just how is a retreat from a planet executed? Are they removed immediately to the nearest friendly planet? Or do they have to move the following turn under normal rules. With no specifics we simply declare the retreating command(s) ‘withdrawn’ and they begin the following turn ready to jump away from the contested planet using the normal movement rules.
Fatigue – for survivors the fatigue rules are easy to apply. The only thing we added was that a Fatigue cannot be reduced by RP expenditure on a turn it was gained. A lot of fatigue can be reduced in one turn by a command with two ‘Rest’ orders (2 FP), no move or combat for the turn (1 FP) and fatigue removal by RPs (2 FP max).
Fatigue can kill. Each turn in combat earns a Formation .5 Fatigue and when combined with other methods of adding fatigue (assault move order, attack order, counter Insurgency order, etc.) the 5 fatigue points required for a +1 to all combat DR is not all that far away. Fatigue is just another item to be tracked in combat when planning to try an break off or press an attack.
<<To be continued>>
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Had to create ACS stats for LAMs for the DCMS, btw.
lt: sz 1 mv 6 transport mp NA tmm 5 arm 30 s 9 m 3 l 0 pv? specials RCN, LAM 3LLAM
med: sz 2 mv 5 transport mp NA tmm 5 arm 33 s 9 m 6 l 0 pv? specials LAM 3MLAM... This was my first time converting stats, so please let me know if my conversion to ACS was wrong, btw... <snip>
Hmm, the game tends to use a generic form of Lance and give LAM capability to all players based on tech levels. This means LAM production is not limited to the DC despite the location of the fluff canon factory ;)
Here is my take on the problem with LAMs
Land Air Mech Conversion
We haven’t bothered with LAMs in our game as ACS is based on regiments and LAM regiments do not ever appear to have been deployed. Also, by 3025 the LAM was all but extinct and would become so by the Clan invasion. I doubt there is a role for them in the ISaW/ACS based game beyond the SBF Formation level mainly because aerospace and ground Elements cannot be mixed in the same “Units”. If you read Step 1B on page 326 you will see that ground Elements can only be in an aerospace Unit if they are LAMs. At the same time an aerospace Unit cannot operate as a ground Unit, so a Unit with LAMs could not land and fight if it also has ASF Elements.
Still, the LAM is there to be used and ACS Conversion rules do allow players to design lances, companies and so on with LAMs. Beyond SBF, where Formations can be split and Units operate independently (a LAM Unit could be separated from an AS Formation to land and fight as a BM Unit), there does not appear to be scope for LAMs in ISaW. Further, as Epic noted the AirMech ability is not used in ISaW/ACS, probably because there is no terrain with which to use WiGE. Also, I believe the +1 TMM bonus applies only at the Alpha Strike level and is not mentioned beyond page 112 in the “Alternate Era” chapter. There is no mention of the additional +1 to TMM in the ACS conversion for Units, Combat Teams, Combat Units or Formations, or in SBF and beyond (unless I missed it).
LAMs that are present in Units (SBF) gain a detection bonus of +1 to their DR but in an Formations (multiple Units in SBF or multiple CUs is ACS) the entire Formation must be LAMs to gain the bonus found on page 308 (+1 Detection, +1 Recon, +20% damage). See the table on page 334. While this would work in (Adv) SBF it poses a problem in ACS/IsaW as it would require multiple battalions of LAMs which does not seem possible in the 3rd SW. Then again, ISaW in the 3025 era is not meant to clone the uni-lore from the various novels, etc.
In keeping with the generic nature of Lances in ACS (the possible combinations are numerous even with just three models) the first pass will be a light LAM Lance with, 2 Stinger-A10 and 2 Wasp-105. The “medium” LAM lance will have 3 Phoenix Hawk-2M and 1 Stinger-A10. The AS Stats are as follows:
STG-A10 - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6j; TMM: 2; Arm: 3; Str: 3; S; 2; M: 1; L: 0; PV: 22 – Spec: ENE, FUEL4, LAM (36g/6a)
WSP-105 – TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6j; TMM: 2; Arm: 3; Str: 3; S; 1; M: 1; L: 0; PV: 21 – Spec: FUEL4, LAM (36g/6a)
PHX-HK2M – TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5j; TMM: 2; Arm: 4; Str: 4; S: 2; M: 2; L: 1; PV: 30 – Spec: FUEL4, IF1, LAM (30g/5a)
Light LAM Lance: 2 STG-A10, 2 WSP-105, regular/reliable
Ground LAM Lance - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6l; Jump: 3j; TMM: 2; Arm: 9; S: 2; M: 1; L: 0 Skill: 4; PV: 29;
Aerospace LAM Lance- TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6a; Arm: 9; S: 2; M: 1; L: 0 Skill: 4; PV: 29
Three such lances would make a Combat Team (CT) or SBF Formation but for ISaW purposes we will focus on the CT.
Light LAM Company (CT): 3 Lances, regular/reliable
Ground LAM CT - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6; Jump: 3; TMM: 2; Arm: 9; S: 2; M: 1; L: 0 Skill: 4; PV: 29 (87)
Aerospace LAM CT - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6a; Arm: 9; S: 2; M: 1; L: 0 Skill: 4; PV: 29 (87)
Three Combat Teams make a Combat Unit (CU) or battalion.
Light LAM Battalion/Wing (CU): 3 Companies, regular/reliable
Here there might be an issue with the wording of “Phase 3: Create ACS Combat Units”. Under Step 3D, JUMP the text states the jump movement should be averaged and then divided by 3. This would result in in a +2 to the TMM for the battalion and a final TMM of 4 (((6*4)/4)/3) = 2. However, this does conflict with the non-LAM method used for all of the CUs in CO, which actually *adds* the TMM of the CTs together and then divides by three. In order to not have a ridiculously high TMM [2 +((6*4)/3) = 10] we will have to use the text.
There is also an issue with the PV calculation and the text stating the CTs PV should be added together and then divided by 3. However, in the tables in CO the PV for CTs is not divided by 3 but simply added together.
Ground LAM CU (Bn) - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6; TMM: 4; Arm: 27; S: 6; M: 3; L: 0; Tac: 4; Mor: 7; Skill: 4; PV: 87
Aerospace LAM CU (Wing) - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 6a; Arm: 27; S: 6; M: 3; L: 0 Tac: 4; Mor: 7; Skill: 4; PV: 87
Comparing this ground battalion to other House light Mech battalions it proves to be relatively well armoured but lacking in short range firepower to some of its competitors and is inferior in medium and long range firepower to all House battalions. The LAM battalion is also somewhat more expensive.
As an Aerospace Wing this unit is twice the size of a standard ASF Wing and (not surprisingly) very well armoured (27), matching an LC medium or FS heavy fighter wing. It is slower than the FS and LC light wings but matches the medium wings of the other Houses. It outguns all the House light ASF wings at short range and is a challenge for most medium wings at medium range as well. This version of a LAM Wing has no long range firepower, which places it at a disadvantage against many of the House medium and heavy wings.
Where PV is concerned it could be matched by:
CC – 2 lt ASF Wings totalling PV 86 has a total of 38 armour and damage values of 8/8/0 provided both wings hit for full damage
DC - 2 lt ASF Wings totalling PV 86 has a total of 40 armour and damage values of 8/8/2 provided both wings hit for full damage
FS - 2 lt ASF Wings totalling PV 78 and a total of 36 armour with damage values of 6/6/0 provided both wings hit for full damage. The FS wings do have 11 movement, which means a Tac Value of 0. This means that the LAMs would more often than not be on the losing side of the manoeuvre roll allowing the Formation of two light wings to set the range (likely medium), where the FS fighters have the advantage.
FWL - 2 lt ASF Wings totalling PV 86 and a total of 38 armour and damage values of 8/8/0 provided both wings hit for full damage.
LC – like the FS Formation of 2 lt ASF Wings the PV total is 78 with a total of 36 armour and damage values of 6/6/0 provided both wings hit for full damage. The LC wings also have 11 movement which means a Tac Value of 0. The LAMs would again lose the manoeuvre roll more often than not, allowing the Formation of two light wings to set the range (again likely medium), where the Lyran fighters have the advantage.
”Medium” LAM Units/Formations
A “Medium” LAM Lance composed of 3 PHX-HK 2M and 1 STG-A10 has improved stats while the weight remains “light” (size 1*). Movement does drop to 5.
*The AS card has the PHX-HK2M as a Size 1 BM despite weighing in at 50 tons (normally size 2). I suspect this because in the ASF role the 50 tons is still a light fighter (size 1).
“Med” Ground LAM Lance - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5; Jump: 3; TMM: 2; Arm: 11; S: 3; M: 2; L: 1 Skill: 4; PV: 37 [Spec IF1]
“Med” Aerospace LAM Lance- TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5a; Arm: 11; S: 3; M: 2; L: 1 Skill: 4; PV: 37
The CTs look the same except the Special of IF1 increases the long and extreme ranges by 1.
“Med” Ground LAM CT - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5; Jump: 3; TMM: 2; Arm: 11; S: 3; M: 2; L: [2]1 Skill: 4; PV: 37 (112) [Spec IF1]
“Med” Aerospace LAM CT - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5a; Arm: 11; S: 3; M: 2; L: 1 Skill: 4; PV: 37 (112)
And then there is the battalion/wing.
“Med” Ground LAM CU (Bn) - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5; TMM: 4; Arm: 33; S: 9; M: 6; L: [6]3; Tac: 5; Mor: 7; Skill: 4; PV: 112 - Spec: [IF1]
Aerospace LAM CU (Wing) - TP: BM; Sz: 1; Mv: 5a; Arm: 33; S: 9; M: 6; L: 3 Tac: 5; Mor: 7; Skill: 4; PV: 112
If you drop out one Phoenix-Hawk for a Stinger or Wasp the stats drop by a small amount. In this case the LAM battalion results in a perfectly useful “medium” Mech battalion with 33 armour and TMM of 4, speed of 5 and damage values of 9/6/6. This battalion could stand in battle against any of the House medium battalions and is actually better than the medium battalions of the CC and LC.
On the other hand, as an aerospace CU the large PV cost means that the Houses can place two to three wings in one or more Formations to do battle (a number of combination are available). The combined House ASF wings would have much more firepower and armour and the battle could hinge on the tactics values (manoeuvre rolls) and who suffers the critical hits first.
As mentioned above the role for LAMs in a grand campaign game of the scale of ISaW seem limited due to the game design basis (battalions and regiments). They would probably work better in AS, (Adv) BF and (Adv) SBF as these versions of the game are closer to the smaller scale battles of BT and also make their use easier within the rule limitations.
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Hmmm... seems like an opportunity for some new rules here... Worktroll? ::)
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HEH. Also just got back from hiking and surfing (and broke my foot as well).
Alright, so when I made my ACS stats, and being familiar(ish) with the new LAM rules, I went and interpreted the LAM TTM as having the WiGe +1 bonus for TMM. Mainly, this is due to the fact that the LAM rules are quite similar, and so it "fit". Upon checking, as you pointed out, LAMs do not get an additional bonus from IO p 328 like WiGe do, or vtols.
As for making the LAMs as they are, the only power so far that has chosen to field them has been the DCMS, so I went with full companies of Stingers and full companies of P Hawks. Didn't even bother to make them for anyone else yet.
It's worth noting that I think they are undervalued for PV in this instance, as they have the dual roles of being both AS and ground forces.
As the DCMS is building them at standard cost, not at triple cost (they have researched and deployed level 4 battletechnology) the cost is not increased. We were torn on what the cost should be, however. In the end, we decided 1.5 times the cost of an equivalent battlemech battalion. weight, to cover the additional training (aerospace/mechwarrior cross-training, plus conversion equipment). This also "fit" with the fact that they could assume dual roles of air and ground force.
Right now, the experiment is still brewing, but another House has decided to try their hand at a specialized unit with LAMs as well.
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No worries, my post was not intended to be a criticism, I understand why you went with an all Stinger light lance. It makes for a powerful CU and the DC had a Stinger LAM factory. In fact, players could design their *perfect* lances for each of the weight classes and ignore CO tables if they so choose. As discussed, the possible ground lance combinations are almost endless so when it came to the limited choices for LAMs I went with a 'generic' lance to retain that 'generic' philosophy. It is their "historical" rarity that has kept them from our game.
Note that if you do combine a medium CT with two light CTs to make a CU the movement (thrust) will only be 5a. The conversion rules for aerospace note the Unit, CT, CU use the lowest movement/thrust value, unlike ground Units the values are not averaged. This would affect the Tactics/Manoeuvre value of the CU/Formation on the ground and (especially) in the atmosphere or space.
Then again, that could also be used as a means to curb the obvious power of such a large AS CU. :)
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End Phase, Part II
Experience – An easy rule to apply, a command fights, it gains experience. The 25% rule is good but perhaps it should be applied at the CU level. This avoids a mauled heavy Mech battalion receiving 95% replacement but because this number is less that 25% of the command's armour, the experience level is not effected. If your group does not mind the extra bookkeeping you can apply experience by battalion (CU) across the board. This also helps avoid situations where only part of a command is engaged, usually because of a large difference in numbers, yet the entire command gains experience.
The slow but steady increase in experience levels has led to a phenomenon we have labelled “Experience Creep”. For veteran and elite commands that do not run into a bad situation and are crushed we have noticed they simply keep getting better despite the regular influx of replacement armour points. Note that these veteran and elite commands are not suffering light losses, ACS is not that generous. Like regular and green commands, the higher quality commands often suffer 40, 50 60% or more damage in combat. However, the rules note that as long as the command does not receive more than 25% replacements its experience is not affected. This almost ensures their continued ‘growth’. This is of special concern when units begin to click over from elite to heroic. Green and regular formation rarely see this effect as they tend to be shot to pieces before reaching veteran status or, in the case of higher experience regulars, are mined for armour points to rebuild higher quality units. The regulars then mine the higher level green commands that may have survived. Green units simple evaporate.
To lessen this effect we are experimenting with a couple of modifications to the replacement rules. As above, when absorbing armour from a different command the experience levels are averaged out between the existing armour and the new points transferred in. Furthermore, for all veteran or higher quality commands armour replacement points purchased via RPs are considered to have an experience level 13 (lowest 'regular' rating). This has the effect of bringing down overall experience levels and preventing a runaway progression of commands to veteran-elite-heroic and beyond. To offset this effect armour points used from salvage up to the normal 25% cap have no effect on experience levels of the command (representing captured spare parts and kit but few new personnel). If salvage is used for more than 25% in one turn then the normal depletion of experience occurs (representing captured spares and kit as well as an influx of new blood).
The above modified rule, does not apply to regular or lower quality commands.
Thus far this effect has tended to halt the “march to perfection” of higher quality units while still making the move upwards possible. The intensity of the battlefield action in our game is slowly drawing commands to the median with the vast majority of commands having either high level regulars to mid-level veteran and elite experience. The few commands (2 so far) that have achieved heroic have not held that level for long (exception being specific CUs, since we track experience by the battalion)
If a group is ambitious enough to track experience by CUs the above rule modification does add some interesting flavour to commands. It is possible to have elite battalions operating next to regulars or veterans in the same command.
Garrisons
Another well designed rule and one that is definitely needed in a grand campaign game of this scale. Personally, I really like the garrison rules as they offer diversity to players who may have different ideas on how they want to garrison their planets. We did wonder why the presence of a combat command would encourage 50% of the defence forces to remain at home during an invasion but the designers had their reasons (we did set this sentence aside and use the full garrisons available).
The rule is missing the weight of CUs found in garrisons or their quality. We came up with a basic charts to determine these factors (food for a revision in a future product?)
Infantry regiments – the first regiment is a green (exp 9) militia regiment (reservists), the remaining regiments are regular infantry (exp 13) of the professional (government) army.
Armour and Mech battalions (all start as regular, exp 13) – dr: 1-2 = light CU; dr: 3-5 = medium CU; dr: 6* = heavy CU. *roll again, on a 6 an armoured CU may be assault weight.
Fixed Garrisons
This choice allows the players a bit of flexibility to mold their commands as they see fit and the 5% repair and 3 RP for (50%) rebuilding rule is a nice touch. As noted in the rules section these garrisons are geared to a ‘basic’ game that might focus on a limited campaign or small section of a front.
Basic Garrisons
Basic Garrisons allow much more player flexibility for planetary defences. The trade-off is that the multitude of possible variations may lead to something of a dog’s breakfast where book keeping may be involved in recording garrison strength. Then again, a player may standardize his garrisons just as if they are a Detailed Garrison but with a personal touch. Unfortunately, the rule does not mention the repair rates. Is it the same as Fixed Garrisons or should they follow the standard repair rules from page 364?
Detailed Garrisons
This is the rules we decided on as it simplified the bookkeeping and avoided seeing assault Mechs and artillery battalions as part of planetary garrisons. We immediately noticed this rule did not include aerospace wings so after some experience we added the PV totals found under Basic Garrisons. That said, due to the cost of aerospace wings, where planets had 100 PV or less, we allowed players to ‘craft’ wings out of squadrons (CTs). An ‘other’ world’s 50 PV wing, for example, usually consists of 2 light and one heavy squadron). These have the ‘home guard’ feel of planets only being able to field what can be afforded over standard military wings
If a planet has more than 100 PV it uses the standard wing deployments.
As with Basic Garrisons the rule does not speak to replacement levels. We went with 5% for free but the ‘government’ can raise this to a max 25% for the normal armour point RP costs.
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No worries, my post was not intended to be a criticism, I understand why you went with an all Stinger light lance. It makes for a powerful CU and the DC had a Stinger LAM factory. In fact, players could design their *perfect* lances for each of the weight classes and ignore CO tables if they so choose. As discussed, the possible ground lance combinations are almost endless so when it came to the limited choices for LAMs I went with a 'generic' lance to retain that 'generic' philosophy. It is their "historical" rarity that has kept them from our game.
Note that if you do combine a medium CT with two light CTs to make a CU the movement (thrust) will only be 5a. The conversion rules for aerospace note the Unit, CT, CU use the lowest movement/thrust value, unlike ground Units the values are not averaged. This would affect the Tactics/Manoeuvre value of the CU/Formation on the ground and (especially) in the atmosphere or space.
Then again, that could also be used as a means to curb the obvious power of such a large AS CU. :)
It wasn't intended for creating a more powerful unit so much as just what the Dracs would have had on hand for building. However, the point is noted about probably creating a different one for the Medium. That being said... they would be split into different companies anyways for air engagements, due to element size. ARGH.
So far, they haven't been used in that capacity anyways.
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End Phase, Part II
Experience – An easy rule to apply, a command fights, it gains experience. The 25% rule is good but perhaps it should be applied at the CU level. This avoids a mauled heavy Mech battalion receiving 95% replacement but because this number is less that 25% of the command's armour, the experience level is not effected. If your group does not mind the extra bookkeeping you can apply experience by battalion (CU) across the board. This also helps avoid situations where only part of a command is engaged, usually because of a large difference in numbers, yet the entire command gains experience.
The slow but steady increase in experience levels has led to a phenomenon we have labelled “Experience Creep”. For veteran and elite commands that do not run into a bad situation and are crushed we have noticed they simply keep getting better despite the regular influx of replacement armour points. Note that these veteran and elite commands are not suffering light losses, ACS is not that generous. Like regular and green commands, the higher quality commands often suffer 40, 50 60% or more damage in combat. However, the rules note that as long as the command does not receive more than 25% replacements its experience is not affected. This almost ensures their continued ‘growth’. This is of special concern when units begin to click over from elite to heroic. Green and regular formation rarely see this effect as they tend to be shot to pieces before reaching veteran status or, in the case of higher experience regulars, are mined for armour points to rebuild higher quality units. The regulars then mine the higher level green commands that may have survived. Green units simple evaporate.
To lessen this effect we are experimenting with a couple of modifications to the replacement rules. As above, when absorbing armour from a different command the experience levels are averaged out between the existing armour and the new points transferred in. Furthermore, for all veteran or higher quality commands armour replacement points purchased via RPs are considered to have an experience level 13 (lowest 'regular' rating). This has the effect of bringing down overall experience levels and preventing a runaway progression of commands to veteran-elite-heroic and beyond. To offset this effect armour points used from salvage up to the normal 25% cap have no effect on experience levels of the command (representing captured spare parts and kit but few new personnel). If salvage is used for more than 25% in one turn then the normal depletion of experience occurs (representing captured spares and kit as well as an influx of new blood).
The above modified rule, does not apply to regular or lower quality commands.
Thus far this effect has tended to halt the “march to perfection” of higher quality units while still making the move upwards possible. The intensity of the battlefield action in our game is slowly drawing commands to the median with the vast majority of commands having either high level regulars to mid-level veteran and elite experience. The few commands (2 so far) that have achieved heroic have not held that level for long (exception being specific CUs, since we track experience by the battalion)
If a group is ambitious enough to track experience by CUs the above rule modification does add some interesting flavour to commands. It is possible to have elite battalions operating next to regulars or veterans in the same command.
Interesting. Experience growth hasn't been... as much of a concern for us. I say as much as because there definitely is a constant desperate need to get units out of being green (especially starting units). Also, the slow growth of units that are at the training centres. However, once shoved into the meatgrinder of the Succession Wars, it seems like a lot of even the veteran or elite units using ACS... simply disappear. They are eaten up by the engine of war rapidly, it seems.
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Turns 16-19 (April to July 3026)
The Capellan Confederation continues to fend off sporadic raiding attempts and special ops strikes on key industries, while trying to rebuild their ravaged economy. A new economic initiative by the Chancellor finally starts paying off in May, and the Capellan economy begins to rebuild.
Seeing this, the Federated Suns steps up their raiding operations, hitting multiple worlds. An incredibly daring strike manages to steal the supplies shipment of the Big MAC on Menke.
The Chancellor unleashes the MAC after their howls of outrage, and they raid and damage the 5th Davion Guards RCT in response, nearly destroying the unit entirely (and stealing their supplies) in revenge. Other units are shifted around, and Davion forces are routinely defeated in their raid attempts now.
The Draconis Combine initiates a full strategic analysis of the borders, to determine weak points. Raids by the Dragoons, most of their mercenary forces, and some Galedon Regulars units are authorized to determine additional weak points... but no invasions have occurred, yet. The 10th Deneb Light Cavalry on Huan face repeated raids, and are effectively under a blockade, as supplies rarely are reaching them...
The Free Worlds League continues to suffer from infighting, but worse, from the predation of raids and special operations targetting their industrial worlds all over. Their own special ops teams suffer the indignity of failure and capture, then public execution on Tharkad. However, on Hesperus II, the operatives again cause issues with production... followed by unsuccessful raids from Zaniah.
Lyran Commonwealth forces continue to harass and raid the FWL border... until July, 3026.
In a broad offensive to shock the FWL, the border erupts in fighting.
10th Lyran Regulars attack Galileo - victory against militia
36th Lyran Guard attack Epsilon - Caesar's Cohorts and the militia surrendered without a fight
14th Lyran Guard attack Megrez - defeating the 3rd Sirian Lancers who are badly damaged in an initial engagement, and negotiate their retreat off-world after losing the bulk of their support and 2 mech battalions.
2nd Lyran Royal Guard attack Mcaffe - defeating the 6th Regulan Hussars who put up a good mobile fight, but are simply overwhelmed as they lack any infantry support. The surviving Hussars retreat off-world.
2nd and 5th Donegal Guards attack Togwolee - victory against militia
1st, 3rd Lyran Combat Teams (new units, previously unseen), 15th and 37th Lyran Guard, ad the 17th Arcturan Guards, attack zaniah
facing the 25th and 31st Marik Militia, the Gryphons and a new mercenary support unit, Marlon's Marauders.
Preparing to withdraw to their fortress, the Free Worlds League units are dismayed when
the fortification crumbles to rubble, while communications are disrupted due to a number
of special operations teams assasinating key units, blowing up relays and causing mayhem on the first day
of grounding.
In the first few days of battle, the Lyran units manage to surround
and crush the 25th Marik Militia while a massive air battle begins.
In response, however, the Elite 15th Lyran Guard are tricked into a trap that
destroys much of their support forces before they can extract themselves. Marlon's
Marauders proves their worth over the next week, attempting hit and run attacks that
delay Lyran forces who are unable to identify the formation with recon. However,
overwhelming Lyran superiority in tanks works to their advantage, and while it costs the Lyrans
a tank regiment, they pin the Gryphons down finally, and a couple charges later, it becomes obvious to everyone
that the FWL forces are in disarray; the 31st badly damaged, the Gryphons losing their mech regiment, and
the only viable force is the Marauders, badly damaged.
Talks begin, and the FWL forces are allowed to withdraw. Similar incidents occur withe the 6th Regulans on Mcaffe,
though Caesar's Cohort chooses instead to end employment with the FWL as part of their settlement, and instead become
free agents on Galatea with a parole requirement of not being employed by either the DC or FWL for a period of 4 years.
They accept, as the alternative is internment.
The ransom for the FWL forces is reputedly quite high. Handing over substantial stocks of supplies,
the FWL reels from the blow of losing 6 worlds in battles up and down the line. The 3rd battle of Zaniah ends with the
Lyrans regaining the last world they lost to their foes, in what is the largest engagement to date.
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Note: I wasn't involved in the combat side. But I wonder if the 'experience creep' is meant to allow the replication of feats like the Wolf's Dragoons (5 regiments) tying up an entire front in the canon 4th War. Absent ortillery (the Kell Lesson ;) there's an organic reason why some units last for centuries, and others last months.
(See also fighter pilot development in WW2, or Vietnam. Once the pilot survives their first combat, their odds of surviving go up. Once they get their first kill, waaay up. Und so weiter.)
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I don't disagree and we see veteran and elite units ((usually) survive battles in better shape than regular and green Commands for all the reasons found in ACS and the Master Modifier List (better tactics values and increased damage values). It is also perfectly understandable that players will protect their better units by mining less skilled and battered commands for armour replacement points.
I fully expect that by the time we end the 3rd SW Campaign two or three of the houses may have a core group of commands that may be Heroic or even Legendary, a raft of elites and a bushel veterans. Regulars and green Commands may only exist long enough to become replacement points. :o
It may take a major conflict ::) to correct the balance. 8)
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I don't disagree and we see veteran and elite units ((usually) survive battles in better shape than regular and green Commands for all the reasons found in ACS and the Master Modifier List (better tactics values and increased damage values). It is also perfectly understandable that players will protect their better units by mining less skilled and battered commands for armour replacement points.
I fully expect that by the time we end the 3rd SW Campaign two or three of the houses may have a core group of commands that may be Heroic or even Legendary, a raft of elites and a bushel veterans. Regulars and green Commands may only exist long enough to become replacement points. :o
It may take a major conflict ::) to correct the balance. 8)
Heh. Which is the goal of my game; to play out the conditions of the 4SW. Now at August 3026, so 24 more game turns.
Oy. and when 2 fanatical commands go at each other, what a bloodbath!
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turn 20 the DC finally launches a limited invasion of the Fed Suns, while sporadic raids
and headhunting strikes continue on both fronts. The world of Kesai IV is selected;
the 8th Sword of Light accompanies Alpha Regiment and Zeta Battalion of Wolf's Dragoons.
On world, they engage the 3rd Davion Guards and the 11th Avalon Hussars. In suicidal engagements, both the Davion Guards and the 8th Sword of Light obliterate each other, mutually; it was a near thing, however, as the 8th would have won, if not for massed successful air strikes and artillery that slowed down their initial charges. The Dragoons, outnumbered, begin a slow campaign to wear down the Avalon Hussars, and over the span of the month, gain the upper hand - the local militia is also destroyed by a charge from Zeta Battalion. By the end of August, however, the world has still not fallen to the Dragon, the 11th Hussars stubbornly fighting on.
The Fed Suns/CC border falls suddenly quiet. Davion quartermasters, tipped off by numerous failed espionage attempts on the Draconis border, shift scant resources to supply units on the DC border.
The FWL/LC border continues to have sporadic raiding; the bad-luck Gryphons land on Kalidasa to begin re-arming, only to be forced into action to repel a raid by Sinclair's Rangers, a Lyran mercenary unit.
The FWL erupts in in-fighting in Parliament over the attacks from the LC; Parliament approves funding to rebuild, but it staggers the already teetering economy of the FWL to do so.
Turn 21
Sept 3026. The Dragon continues to advance, this time targetting Huan, to recapture the world
taken by House Davion over a year before. The 12th Galedon Regulars, accompanied by Gamma and Delta
Regiments of Wolf's Dragoons, attack. Defending the world is the 10th Deneb Light Cavalry who had been preparing for this fight for some time. Mounting an aggressive air patrol, the Deneb meet and engage the Dragoons and Galedon Regulars in space, skirmishing using their dropships and interceptors repeatedly, savaging the bulk of the Dragon's air forces before landing. Desperate Dragoons fighters protect the Dropships on final approach, and prevent any serious losses from occurring. On the ground, the Deneb have set up a systematic mobile defence plan, and fall back from
prepared position to prepared position, with only the Dragoon's light mechs able to keep up. Worse, the Deneb manage to fool DCMS troops with local militia troops as well, until Delta pins the militia down and destroys it. The 12th Galedon fare little better, fall into ambush after ambush. Deneb air superiority ensure repeated bombing attacks, destroying support units and artillery whenever identified. In a few short weeks the 12th Galedon cease to exist; knowing that they can't just give up, the Dragoons try an all or nothing gamble, and charge nearby identified elements.
Destroying 2 light tank regiments of the 10th, Gamma suffers serious damage themselves but the Deneb are themselves shaken. An uneasy peace follows, broken when the Dragoons allow the Deneb to board their dropships and leave; the Dragoons outnumber them, and only as they are departing does intelligence ascertain
how badly crippled the Deneb air forces are; the Deneb ground forces take what they can with them to repair themselves. The Dragoons look on as they march past with a final salute of respect for the tenacity of their foe.
Assisting their Davion allies the Lyran Commonwealth takes 2 minor worlds on the Draconis border, Skokie and Moritz in a quick strike.
turn 22 - A month of resting up, resupply, re-arm, rebuild. raids strike a number of targets again, the Lyrans stepping up raids and starting raiding on the Draconis border too.
turn 23 - attack of the special forces! failure of the special forces. very green teams of DEST commandoes horribly fail on the Lyran border. Meanwhile, other than a successful strike at the facilities on Nanking, Loki operatives likewise fail against the Capellan Confederation.
turn 24 heavy raiding on the FWL border damages several key units, and continues to cripple production at Kalidasa, Thermopolis and Oliver. Special ops strike at Loyalty and Shiro III, and terrorist attacks cause plant shutdowns on Irian.
Terrorist strikes and Sabotage damage the production at Capella severely as well.
3026 closes, with 3027 showing evidence of a rising war machine...
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Cool!
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I just realised I missed the tech R & D rules and the ComStar rules from "Second Succession War". Both these sections add a lot to the game and require the GM to keep track of who might be getting the upper hand,.... and then bringing in ComStar, ROM, etc.
But more on that later. :)
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I just realised I missed the tech R & D rules and the ComStar rules from "Second Succession War". Both these sections add a lot to the game and require the GM to keep track of who might be getting the upper hand,.... and then bringing in ComStar, ROM, etc.
But more on that later. :)
R and D rules definitely add a great element. From a canon perspective, it's too easy. A good couple rolls and investments and a Successor House that is able to fund it can be recovered from the Succession Wars in a little over a year, especially the DC and LC. However, from a game play perspective, attempting to balance a budget with research thrown in works quite well.
Oddly, the extra amount from industrial tech is what makes raids profitable (that and trade, and faction abilities).
There was an article awhile back with basic game play that showed that investing in upgrading worlds is pointless, that you get a better return on your investment to simply collect your interest of 5%
However, most of the factions - if not all (I haven't done the math for the FS) - benefit from upgrading in the long term for rps when factoring for a level 4 industrial tech and trade.
An example, from current campaign.
The Lyran Commonwealth, 3025 era, gets merchants kings +20% on rp income
They have trade with: FS, TC, OA, MoC, FWL and CC for another .+35% Yes, the FWL trade with each other even though they continue to both be engaged in a raiding war with each other.
And finally, have gained level 4 industrial tech for another +20% base income.
That's a whopping 75% extra they get out of a minor industrial world.
in the calculations for the initial feedback at https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50912.0 for ISaW, everyone (including me) forgot about all the modifiers. admittedly, second succession war wasn't out yet, so that mod would be gone. However, the general assumption was that it would take 24 rounds for a return on investment, and still would net less than the interest that would have been generated if it wasn't spent on an upgrade.
However, with that minor world now generating the equivalent of 42/round instead, the LC see a return on investment in 14 months, and the interest rates also go up and accrue accordingly too, so it actually ends up being even less. It's a long term strategy still, of course, and is dependent on
It also makes raiding (a topic that has been discussed previously in this thread) a viable strategy as the cost of the raiding unit, with a successful raid, is worth the damage inflicted. It ALSO makes sabotage and terrorism with special ops very, very valuable missions to perform if successful.
The investment for a Major World isn't beneficial still, admittedly.
The investment for a Regional Capital, however, is.
In our campaign, Research for Battletechnology (achieved by the DCMS) has netted them the ability to field LAMs at normal cost, which they have experimented with to some success. It also minorly increased the combat effectiveness of their troops, which has led to some victories in invasions, though not overwhelming. Comm and transport tech have not (yet) had an impact on the game. Actually, in 3025 rules, transport tech can't have an impact, it's for other eras.
The Comstar rules require more GM intervention. They've been pretty handy at keeping some game balance, especially at trimming research efforts. All players know that their research efforts are being attacked and meta-wise, that at least some of it is Comstar (though not by any means all of it).
We created an extra house-rule for Comstar, as the Research rules don't seem to indicate HOW to reduce a technology level below current levels, even though it clearly occurred in the Succession Wars. Current sabotage research rules only remove Development Points; which is all the House and Periphery special ops teams can do.
Comstar special ops teams ALSo destroy development points, but they can also (with a good sabotage roll) if reducing a player below 0 threshold for that level of research, knock that Research back to the next lower level. This means that players are constantly investing at least a few points in DPs for all types of research, just to make sure that they are above a 0 DP level and don't get "knocked back to the Stone Age" in a certain field of research.
The Interdiction rules work as intended. They are exceedingly crippling to a power if it occurs.
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Also, post for turns 25-30 coming out shortly (just finishing battle results for turn 30 now). Phew. Almost to the beginning of the 4th SW! That will be... turn 44 with a canon start. Let's see if it stays with canon...
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January 3027. It's a bad month to be a mercenary. The Lone Star Regiment, or what remains of it, attempts a daring raid on Tamar. Bad intel and a serious mad-on by the Lyrans over repeated
raids, has the unit shot down with their dropships, utterly destroying the merc unit.
On the Capellan/Fed front, Nero's Fiddlers, a newer mercenary unit, meets a similar fate over the skies of St Ives at the hands of Capellan defenders.
A Capellan headhunting sortie and naval engagement also kills the 1894th Light Horse of the Blue Star Irregulars in space after locating their base of operations
and wiping them out on the ground in reprisal for their repeated raids into Capellan space.
The supplies of Fuchida's Fusiliers are stolen by parties unknown in the FWL, who has to reimburse the merc unit - again. Their morale suffers as a consequence, and
part of their support staff deserts due to anger over lack of pay while waiting.
Terrorist and sabotage efforts on Sian damage more key Capellan industries. Capellan efforts to reconstruct their economy falter.
Feb 3027
raiding on all fronts, hitting the Capellans again. The 15th Deneb Light Cavalry are badly damaged by
Capellan defenders, rotating off the front for repairs.
March 3027
Raiding continues to damage Capellan economy. Raids on other fronts mostly repulsed
though a DMCS raiding campaign into Tamar and Skye continues to cause disruption.
April 3027 the 4th Illican Lancers cease to exist as House Liao strikes back again at the infernal
mercenaries undermining the economy. in a surprise move, Mcgee's Cutthroats leave DCMS employ and
are hired by the Outworlds Alliance.
Continuous raiding still on all fronts, except for the FWL/CC front. A small breather is earned with
the departure of the Cutthroats, but AFFS troops know that the Dragoons will shortly pick up the slack,
along with new units id'd on the border (and proudly displayed by local propaganda) - the Ryuken.
Heavy raiding and strikes by the DCMS and FWL forces hit a number of Lyran targets in reprisal especially.
May 3027 - raiding continues to damage Capellan economy, but several raids and special ops strike Key Lyran
facilities too.
June 3027 raiding continues amidst Operation Galahad and Thor launching and showcasing multiple training scenarios...
The 9th Illician Lancers dies in a Capellan counterattack, continuing their SOP of destroying
units daring to attack the Confederation. The Lancers die at the hands of 3 full regiments of the Big MAC, who gleefully split the spoils.
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turn 31:
DC/FS border. In an amazing turn of events, the Conroe Training Battalion repulses a
supply raid by Beta Regiment of Wolf's Dragoons.
Disgusted with their treatment, Vandelay's Valkyries quits DCMS employ. They are hired
by the Magistracy of Canopus.
Kingston's Caballeros, in Lyran employ, also quit their employer and seek work in the Periphery.
Turn 32
just raiding
Turn 33
contract expiry of ALL mercenary units in the Federated Suns results in the Kell Hounds
and Greenburg's Godzillas leaving for Lyran employ
the rest are re-hired at substantial cost to the economy
A wedding invitation is extended to all Inner Sphere powers as well as Periphery ambassadors to go to
Terra for the nuptials of Hanse Davion and Melissa Steiner in the following year.
Raiding on the Lyran/FWL front begins to die down. Similarly, raiding on the FS/CC front
is reduced. The Draconis border still has a number of raids on all sides.
Turn 34 - quiet... too quiet! a few raids at most, repulsed except at Marduk
Turn 35 Offensive action begins on several fronts. On the CC/FS front
the Federated Suns begins operations to take back Scituate, taken by the Capellans
almost 3 years previous
The 7th Crucis Lancers and the 5th Syrtis Fusiliers face the 1st St Ives Armored Cavalry.
Oddly, the 5th Syrtis seem to sit back and take easy missions, destroying the militia and providing minimal support while the 7th Crucis Lancers sustain the brunt of the fighting. The St Ives AC is destroyed in short order by the elite regiment, but artillery barrages and quick strikes destroy several infantry regiments of the 7th before they are crushed.
On the FS/DC border, operations begin to take back Kesai IV and New Aberdeen
On Kesai IV, the Davion Light Guards consistently out-maneuver the 9th Sword of Light, fighting a long distance hit and run battle that picks apart the Draconis unit, while the Bryceland Draconis March Militia provides support and defeat the haphazard militia of quislings. Massed artillery barrages, air strikes and hit and run attacks leave the Sword open to a final charge by the assault mechs of the DMM, who destroy the new command, which had replaced the earlier 8th Sword of Light that had ALSO died on Kesai IV against Davion forces. It is rumoured that DCMS troops now view Kesai as a cursed world, eager to eat up the best the Dragon has to offer... happy Davion scrounge teams gather up the remnants of the Sword of Light force to
add to their battle order.
At New Aberdeen, the FS sends the 21st Striker Regiment of the Eridani Light Horse and the 4th Deneb Light Cavalry. They face the 21st Galedon Regulars. While the Eridani dealt with the local militia, the 4th outmaneuver the 21st, until air dominance and artillery dominance is achieved. At that point, a brutal bombardment begins that ends with the Eridani and 4th utterly destroying the 21st on world. Losses amongst the 4th are moderate, with infantry hardest hit and the loss of a hover battalion.
On the LC Front, the LC commits 3 regiments to taking back Fort Loudon, also taken almost 3 years previous
At Fort Loudon, the 2nd and 7th Lyran Combat Teams, along with the 19th Arcturan Guard, attack the Green 5th Rasalhague Regulars. Surprisingly, the 5th make a good show of it, embarassing local Lyran
commanders again and again. While outnumbered 3:1, the 5th fall back into prepared defences that savage the 2nd LCT, while playing for time. Their air forces make good on their bravado, and kill twice their weight.
In the end, the Lyrans lose the equivalent of a full mech regiment, 7 infantry regiments and a couple armour battalions to kill a green regiment and defending militia. The loss of the unit is tempered by the damage they inflicted, and Coordinator Kurita agrees that their colours will not be struck, but instead be rebuilt.
Saboteurs hit the distant world of Inarcs as well as Donegal, damaging even more Lyran industries.
Meanwhile, the Dragon has counter-attacked 2 worlds most recently taken - Skokie and Moritz. Mozirje, another world taken by the Lyrans, is not attacked.
At Moritz, the 5th and 9th Sun Zhang Cadre join with the 1st Ghost Hunters against the 11th Donegal Guards and a local militia. The 12th Donegal put up a surprising fight considering the odds, and sacrifice a light armour regiment to crush the 5th SZAC mech regiment in a stunning ambush. However, the 1st Ghost, using LAMS and air strikes, begins grinding down the 12th DG after obliterating the local militia, destroying their artillery and air, and then crushing isolated infantry units before preparing final assaults. In an amazing series of events, while the 11th Donegal are destroyed, they manage to cripple the 5th SZAC, destroy a mech battalion of the 9th, and destroy the medium LAM battalion and a light mech battalion of the 1st Ghost. The world falls the Combine, who has very little to celebrate considering the cost of the operation.
At Skokie, the trained up and newly equipped formation the 27th Rasalhague Regulars and the 1st Nightstalkers face off against the 24th Arcturan Guards.
If not for the Veteran Night Stalkers, the 27th would be crushed by superior tank regiments of the 24th. However, sustained artillery barrages win the day,
cracking and breaking the initial forces of the 24th. Over-confident, the 27th race in... only to be attacked by a Lyran Wall of Steel. In a horrific engagement,the 27th survive at the end of the month... minus their entire support detachment and a mech battalion. The Night Stalkers leave with barely a scratch, and the 24th cease
to exist. Local militia mostly serve as target practice for the bombing runs of the DCMS and then The Dragon's banner again flies over Skokie.
Turn 36 (December 3027)
After the struggles of the last month, all powers race to re-arm and repair their forces, except the largely untouched FWL front. However, the FWL launches a failed raid
with the Iron Guards on New Earth, as well as a damaging raid on Gienah with the elite 21st Centauri Lancers. The 9th Fieflords are caught in both raids in FWL space as well
as defedning Gienah, and their forces suffer a misjump - while the 21st Centauri rip apart their base. Lyran quartermasters pledge to assist in rebuilding the unit after
flawed orders caused so much damage to them...
Raids in the Tikonov area are repulsed by a resurgent Capellan Confedration.
Helmutès Hermits leave the employ of the Draconis Combine, taking work with the Magistracy of Canopus. This brings the total amount of mercenaries in the employ of the Dragon
to an all-time low.
3027 ends with a whimper, as the shadow of a new 4th Succession War draws closer. The final tally is that the Combine has lost 1 world to the Lyrans, the borders have
returned to 3025 starts on the Fed Suns fronts, and the FWL has lost 7 worlds to Lyran advances. The net winner of this micro-period, and end, of the third Succession War is the Lyran Commonwealth!
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3028 is the target YEAR for the 4SW in this campaign, with it being able to be kicked off at any point, to leave it nebulous for participants.
In review, the last 36 turns went quickly and efficiently with economic war and raiding being the order of the day, with sabotage and terror efforts being the other focus of powers.
As such, the Capellan economy has been ravaged - and in review, with focused efforts by the Lyrans in special ops and the Federated Suns via raiding, the Capellans have struggled to keep a balance sheet that was not near the negatives. Isolated Capellan counter-attacks to destroy key merc units used for raiding has allowed the Capellan economy to slowly (VERY slowly) to climb.
The Federated Suns also struggled economically for a long time. Finally in a better place, they had a few key scores of stealing supplies that enabled their economy to recover well. Several merc units paid the price with their lives for this strategy. Overall, they kept their Capellan enemy from recovering financially, while keeping the Dragon mostly at bay.
The Free Worlds League floundered for a long time against their Lyran enemies. Bad rolls with Parliament alongside the wholesale destruction of the FWL economy due to sabotage by veteran Spec ops teams of the Lyrans made it so that the FWL never was able to muster a substantial response. When the Lyran counter-attack at the 3rd Battle of Zaniah was a victory, along with a broad offensive that damaged several border units occurred, it took the FWL a long time to recover and repair the damage. Only now, in 3028, is the FWL starting to be able to look at some offensive operations, beginning new raiding campaigns against the Lyrans.
The Lyran Commonwealth has been a powerhouse this game. Their economy, followed by successful combat operations with incredible luck initially was tempered by a Draconis counterattack right near the end that destroyed 2 combat teams. The Lyran economy has absorbed those losses however, and continues to move forward. The gains on the FWL front are consolidated, but the problem now facing the Commonwealth are roving teams of Special Ops that are crippling the facilities of the Commonwealth; Hesperus II has finally recovered from the raids and operations that had damaged several key factory lines, at least. The Commonwealth continues to put their best foot forward, however, and have several new mech regiments and combat commands ready to pick up the slack.
The Draconis Combine has had ups and downs. Their raiding campaigns have crippled the bulk of the border worlds that they face, but their offensive operations have been stymied by incredibly high losses of their forces. The ability to rebuild lost formations has become an art for the Dragon, whose invasions invariably (due to fanatical damage) cost them large amounts of troops. In the end the Dragon is still ready to take on all forces, but their merc forces have been diminished substantially, and the Dragoons Contract is almost up...
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Oooops,.... originally posted this in the wrong thread... :-[ ;D ::)
Belongs here,.... to be followed by the Comstar rule review.
Technology and Research
For those who have not purchased Second Succession War, or for those who have but have not put much time into the ACS/ISaW parts of the book, Technology and Research is fun bit of extra rules that are easy to use. Note that the costs can be high, stretching the budgets of the player controlled Houses or (in our case) the three GM controlled major Periphery States. As the era in our campaign game is “Late-Succession Wars – Renaissance” R&D is at a low ebb and recovery will prove slow and costly.
Technology covers four basic categories: BattleMech, Communications, Transportation and Industrial technology. For purposes of this discussion they have been shortened to BTech, ComTech, TranTech and IndTech. The higher the tech level in each category the better off a Faction is.
Additions To Faction Abilities and Flaws
Brightest Minds (1) - This state supports its boffins with money and resources. The cost of DPs is reduced by 10%.
Closed State (0) – The oppressive nature of the regime, while making infiltration difficult, crushes initiative and stifles creativity, hindering free expression of new ideas and thus development. DPs cost an additional 25%
State Run (1) – Too much control of the economy and the watchful eye of the master complicates the spread of fresh ideas except in the cases where the benefits to the state are clear. DPs cost an additional 10%
Like the originals in IO these Abilities and Flaws are cumulative. In the case of the Capellan Confederation it gets hits with a heavy +35% to its R&D costs. This is not as crippling as it may seem as the Capellan economy is quite vibrant if not asked to support a major military campaign, heavy espionage and R&D activities.
The Draconis Combine suffers under “State Control” so it pays an extra 10% for R&D but considering its economy is very strong this is not a major burden
The Federated Suns, being the “Sick Man of the Inner Sphere” in ISaW, was given the “Brightest Minds” Ability bonus so it could afford at least some R&D. Considering the creation of NAIS and the general open nature of the FS State and its general freedom of expression the slight bump in ability does not seem out of line with Uni-lore.
Setup: Starting Technology
The table on page 126 of 2SW has the table for starting tech levels for the 1st SW, 2nd SW and 3025 Era. For the 3025 Era the levels are as follows:
CC: BTech – 3; ComTech – 1; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 3
DC: BTech – 3; ComTech – 1; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 3
FS: BTech – 3; ComTech – 3; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 3
FWL: BTech – 3; ComTech – 1; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 3
LC: BTech – 3; ComTech – 3; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 3
MoC: BTech – 2; ComTech – 2; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 1
OA: BTech – 2; ComTech – 2; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 1
TC: BTech – 2; ComTech – 2; TranTech – 1; IndTech – 1
Note the FS and LC hav 1st generation FAX2 tech. Important where ComStar is concerened.
“Economics and Logistics Phase: Calculating Resource Points” (addition)
The new tech level rules are important as they can make a serious impact in base economy RP calculations, which in turn are used to calculate trade income (and thus final income). This is not an issue if you have an IndTech Lvl of 3 as the modifier is x 1. However, our three Periphery State Houses have an IndTech level of just 1 which means a modifier of x0.6,… and this does make a difference.
Take for example the otherwise wealthy Outworlds Alliance and its economy. The numbers come out like this:
Alpheratz 1643 - Nat Cap + minor ind = 104 RP
Mitchella 1743 – minor ind = 24
Ramora 1843 – minor ind = 24
Other worlds – 34 x 2 RP = 68
Total Base RP = 220
IndTech Lvl 1 x 0.6 = 132
Decentralised State x 0.8 = 105.6
Plus Trade (if permitted):
Cap Con: +5
Drac Com: +10.5
Fed Sun: +10.5
FWL: +5
Lyr Com: +5
MoC: +5
Tar Con: +5
Grand Total of just 151.6 RP per month of which a minimum of 28 are required for basic supply for the military and fixed defences.
This leaves only 123.6 RP for building a pool of cash, R&D, Espionage, Spec Ops, Counter Intelligence (very important for a Periphery State), replacing dead Spec Ops teams and expanding the military or building new forts.
“Economics and Logistics Phase: Research Technology” (addition)
A new step between Infrastructure (factory building) and Supply. Development Points (DP) are purchased using RP based on the era (1:10 in 3025). A Faction may spent 15% of its monthly RP on R&D.
The new DPs are added to a pool in each category to track progress to the next Tech Level. The table on page 127 gives the details but, in brief, going from Lvl 1 to 2 takes 50DP or 500RP, from Lvl 2 to 3 takes another 75 DP (750 RP) and to move from Lvl 3 to Lvl 4 requires 115 DP (1150 RP).
When a Faction reaches the required amount it may attempt to increase its Tech level in that category. For example the CC has 50DP accumulated to go from ComTech Lvl 1 to Lvl 2, it must roll 2D6 with a TN of 8 to succeed in achieving the new level. If it fails, it must add another 10DP on a following turn(s) and then it may try again with a -1 TN modifier. If it fails again it must add another 10DP and can try again with a -2 TN modifier. This process is repeated until the Faction achieves the new level.
However, if a natural 2 is rolled than 25% of the accumulated DP in that category are lost. When a new tech level is achieved the pool for that category is reset to zero DPs.
Allies may help each develop Tech by two methods:
1) when a faction invests in a Tech category every 1DP invested also adds .25 DP to its ally. An ally can gain a maximum of 5DP in this manner (so, the other ally must invest 20 DP).
2) If an ally has a higher level tech than its partner it may transfer DP from its own pool to its ally’s pool. For every 3 DP so transferred the receiving ally rolls 1D6 and adds that number of DPs to its pool. See the example on page 127.
Tech Rating Effects
Factions always gain the benefits of the current Tech level and those of a lower level. If a higher level is achieved certain benefits take effect immediately.
BattleTech: In ISaW a Mech CU can increase its armour value by two or add 1 to each of its damage values. For example, if the MoC raised it BTech rating from 2 to 3 its light Mech battalions could increase their armour from 21 to 23 or its damage values would increase from 6/6/0 to 7/7/1 (s/m/l).
ComTech: A Factions ability to send and receive interstellar messages is effected by its level. The usual goal is to obtain first or second generation FAX2 technology to lessen the reliance on ComStar and the potential effects of a ComStar Interdiction. See the ComStar rules section on page 143 (discussed later).
TransporTech: this effects the ability to build capital weapons, Castle Brians, Jumpships and Warships. If a Factions Transport Tech level drops too much, moving on the ISaW map can be affected. Likewise, increases TranTech can lead to rediscovering Lithium Fusion technologies which increase movement on the ISaW map. Of course, none of this is possible in the 3025 Era.
IndustryTech: IndTech levels effect the amount of RPs generated by the economy each month. The higher the IndTech level the more RPs are produced which can effect trade as well as the economic effects of a ComStar Interdiction.
For example, the Capellan Confederation begins the 3025 Era with an IndTech of 3 so its base economy of 966 RP is unchanged (x 1). It is then increased by 25% for the State Run trait for a final base of 1207.5 RP. Assuming it is trading with the LC (5%), DC (5%), MoC(5%), OA (5%) and TC (10%) it would gain a further 372 RP for a final monthly income of 1579.5 (fractions?).
If the IndTech Lvl for the CC increases to 4 its economy will gain a further x 1.2 modifier. Those 966 RP are first increased by x 1.2 for IndTech Level 4 to 1159.2 and then increased again for ‘State Run” by x 1.25 to 1449 RP. With the same trade treaties the CC would now net a further 443 RP for a final monthly income of 1882 RP.
Maximum Technologies
Tech levels are finite and certain eras limit the maximum tech levels that can be achieved by the Houses. For example, a Faction in the 3025 Era cannot rebuilt its tech levels to match the Star League. For 3025 the maximum tech levels are 4/4/4/4 for Inner Sphere Factions and 3/3/4/4 for the Periphery States. 1st SW maximums are 5/5/9/8 (no battle armour folks), 2nd SW are 5/5/6/6 and 4/4/3/4 respectively.
As with the Espionage Rules discussed many pages ago these rules are a lot of fun and add some very nice touches to the game. Tech levels and Espionage do make a difference. We made only one change to the Tech rules due to the planned duration of our game. Since we are in Oct 3020 and plan on pushing the 3rd SW to its conclusion somewhere around 3025, I (as GM) found Tech would advance too quickly with even modest investments. All factions could probably reach their era max by the game’s end.
To counter this I limited R&D (for now) to once per quarter, or 1/3 the normal rate. This has maintained a more ‘slow but steady’ rate on investments.
I also added three ComStar ROM Teams who’s job it is to do their best to block technological advancement. The ROM Teams are elite Spec Ops teams who target well advanced Tech Research with an additional -1 to their TN. If they succeed they do the usual damage to DP pools in the attacked category. If they fail they have 97% chance of placing the blame on another Faction.
Thus far they have almost started a war between the OA and Draconis Combine. Thinking the OA was responsible for both Terrorism and IndTech Sabotage on Luthien, Combine Spec Ops have already damage two of three OA factories. ComStar has also soured relations between the Magistracy and Capellans in much the same way but over ComTech espionage.
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BattleTech: In ISaW a Mech CU can increase its armour value by two or add 1 to each of its damage values. For example, if the MoC raised it BTech rating from 2 to 3 its light Mech battalions could increase their armour from 21 to 23 or its damage values would increase from 6/6/0 to 7/7/1 (s/m/l).
A point in regards to your comment about MoC and gaining values. From what I understand, using Combat Operations lists as the baseline, the forces for 3025 are built in there based on having tech level 3 battletechnology. So beginning Periphery forces actually suffer a loss of 2 pts of armour or 1pt of damage per cu until they achieve battletechnology level 3.
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IndustryTech: IndTech levels effect the amount of RPs generated by the economy each month. The higher the IndTech level the more RPs are produced which can effect trade as well as the economic effects of a ComStar Interdiction.
For example, the Capellan Confederation begins the 3025 Era with an IndTech of 3 so its base economy of 966 RP is unchanged (x 1). It is then increased by 25% for the State Run trait for a final base of 1207.5 RP. Assuming it is trading with the LC (5%), DC (5%), MoC(5%), OA (5%) and TC (10%) it would gain a further 372 RP for a final monthly income of 1579.5 (fractions?).
If the IndTech Lvl for the CC increases to 4 its economy will gain a further x 1.2 modifier. Those 966 RP are first increased by x 1.2 for IndTech Level 4 to 1159.2 and then increased again for ‘State Run” by x 1.25 to 1449 RP. With the same trade treaties the CC would now net a further 443 RP for a final monthly income of 1882 RP.
Interesting. We are doing our RP quite differently from you.
Instead of multiples and then multiplying the multiples, we are adding all multiples together, and then doing the sum.
To use your example, with the CC having 30% trade, 25% for state run, and then having industrial tech of 20% bonus...
Using yours, you get 1882 rp
With us, adding the multiples and then multiplying by the base rp of the economy (966), we get... 966*1.75= 1690.5 rp (rounding to 1691). As you can see, less income to play with. This may also be why the CC is struggling so much in our campaign, for instance. Admittedly, everyone is struggling for finances currently.
So... which is the correct method; to multiply each individual trait/trade/industrial tech, or add up all multipliers/penalties (such as the FWL Parliamentary Chaos) and then multiply? Question to ask in the rules forum, I think.
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We went with the wording in 2nd SW where the Ind Tech is a base multiplier, then the Trait multiplier is factored in. in truth, you should not get a difference if you multiply 966 x 1.2 x 1.25 or 966 x 1.25 x 1.2. The both equal 1449. Trade is calculated after the final industry output is calculated and then added to the total. With a base of 1449 and only one trading partner with a common border the trade treaties need to be calculated separately. The TC will net 10% or 144.9.
All other treaties will net 5% or 72.45 RPs.
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turn 37
Mostly quiet again - almost as though everyone were building up to a war?
Some raids on the Lyran/FWL border
In a headhunting attack, the Blackhearts mercenary unit in Lyran employ raid and destroy the 5th Amphigean
Light Assault Group for their repeated raids on Sudeten, Tamar and Twycross.
Turn 38
the quiet before the storm... still building.
turn 39
quiet
April, 3028
The contract with the Lyran Commonwealth expires for Caesar's Cohorts and the 9th Fieflords, who are
both hired on in the Magistracy of Canopus.
The contract expires with Wolf's Dragoons, who are attacked by Draconis Combine forces before leaving for their
contract with the Federated Suns...
The Battle of Misery commences. One one side: the entirety of Wolf's Dragoons
On the Draconis side: the 10th Sword of Light, the 12th and 21st Galedon Regulars and all 5 Ryuken regiments
under the command of Legendary Commander Minobu Tetsuhara.
Losses are heavy on both sides, but in the end, the Dragoons prove victorious.
(canonically, no aero occurred in Misery, instead chasing dependents - in this, air fights occurred)
Results: the 5th Ryuken were utterly destroyed by the Dragoons - with Minobu Tetsuhara captured, and then later committing seppuku.
Otherwise, the Dragoons destroyed 11 mech battalions (incl the 5th), 11 infantry regments, 5 air wings, 7 armor regiments and 8 artillery battalions.
Losses were especially heavy amongst the 10th Sword of Light on the Draconis side, whose fanaticism made them easy targets. The Dragoons worst
losses were with Gamma Regiment and Zeta battalion.
In exchange, they lost 7 mech battalions, 3 infantry regiments, 3 armor battalions, 3 air wings and 3 artillery battalions - effectively destroying half of the Dragoons.
Sabotage on New Samarkand and Terrorists striking Galedon point to Federated Suns involvement but operatives on the outworlds alliance border find also some evidence suggesting
that the Periphery power has chosen to try and gain agents...
The Waco Rangers leave Federated Suns service for the Lyran Commonwealth.
May 3028
Seeking to save face, the Dragon invades Mozirje, in an attempt to regain all lost worlds to their foes. Attacking Mozirje with the 5th Rasalhague Regulars, the
1st Night Stalkers, the 9th Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, and the 1st and 2nd Ghost Hunters, they face the veteran 1st Lyran Regulars, and their support unit, the 3rd Lyran
Regulars.
Seeking to outmaneuver their foes, the Ghost LAMs recon and destroy a few light units, but are unable to prevent the 5th from blundering straight into the teeth of the
1st Lyran Regulars, who demolish most of the unit in a few short days of fighting.
The 1st Lyran Regulars continue to push their advantage while the Night Stalkers harass them. Artillery strikes repeatedly hammer the Lyran lines, but through sheer force of
will they push on, breaking the 9th to a single battalion. Not to be outdone, the 3rd Lyrans attack straight thru the 2nd Ghost Hunters, and in a week of fighting, destroy that unit as well.
Next up, the Night Stalkers also feel the pain, as they are hounded by a medium battalion that traps them... to be hit from the side by the 3rd. Repeated air strikes finally
break the 3rd Lyrans, who are overrun and destroyed...
The 1st Ghost, already veterans of fights at Moritz, plus numerous raids into the Commonwealth, use the remainder of the month to simply air strike the Lyran Regulars to near death while
evading them, then closing for the kill. Even the kill costs the Ghosts 2 armor regiments before the Lyrans are finally brought down and the world can truly be said
to be secured. At the cost of 3 mech regiments and the near destruction of the 9th Sun Zhang... the Dragon's honour is restored. The survivors of the 9th Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, having seen so
much action both here and after defending Dieron against numerous Lyran raids, are now rated as Veteran. They are incorporated into the survivors of the Night Stalkers, and form a new Night Stalkers
command. The 1st Ghost absorb the survivors of the 2nd Ghost as well (which wasn't much... just their artillery).
The entirety of contracts come up for the Lyran Commonwealth, who spend a vast sum to retain them. A few mercs change over to the FWL or to Taurian Concordat, but most remain
in Lyran space.
June 3028
The Inner Sphere teeters over the edge of war, though no one knows it as of yet. Sabotage strikes
hit the Capellan Confederation at Sian, St Ives, Capella, Betelgeuse, Grand Base, Indicass,
and Ares, crippling the Confederation economy. Other strikes hit Irian, Keystone, Asuncion and Bernardo.
The Outworlds Alliance, sick to death of Draconis attitudes, ends their trade agreement with the DC, though the
DC threatens war in retaliation...
As the marriage of Melissa Steiner and Hanse Davion concludes, the reception announces the fateful words:
"I give you... the Capellan Confederation." to the surprise of many, expecting it to be the Combine that would
feel the power of the alliance.
An ill-fated deep raid dies against the defences of Hesperus II from the FWL.
DCMS troops continue to rebuild after losses of previous months. FWL troops raise up several new Federal regiments.
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This last cycle was particularly exciting, as we head into the 4th SW. Having crafted the scenario, I set the "trigger" of the 4th SW as being when the Dragoons left DC employ, and had created a scenario rule that each month of 3028, the chance of leaving employ would go up 1 pt on 2d6.
So, January, it was a 2 on 2d6, 3 or less on 2d6 for feb, 4 or less in march...
It happened to fall in april, which was the canonical date, so it was perfect. At that point, the Ryuken and all units within 2 jumps of the Dragoons that were not assigned other duties HAD to proceed to Misery to fight the Dragoons.
The effects of the battle were interesting, as they came remarkably close to the canonical outcome for that fight. We ended up giving a higher LR for one Ryuken unit, to represent Minobu Tetsuhara. If that had NOT been done, it's doubtful that the Dragoons would have taken as much damage as they did. Shifting between Ryuken commands twice, eventually it was destroyed and captured, with units being broken on the field and being granted honours of war by the exhausted Dragoons.
It should be noted that ALL dragoons units with the exception of Zeta battalion were Heroic status at the time of the fight, to account for their massive raiding activity on the FS border. The bonus of 4 to hit meant that they rarely if ever would miss, and could use either Defensive or Agressive tactics whenever needed, while consistantly outmaneuvering DCMS forces with engagements. While only 1 combat command was actually destroyed (the 5th Ryuken), the savaging that was inflicted on all units was horrible.
It was with great amusement that Zeta battalion ended with exactly 1 armor point left in their mech battalion, with infantry and armor gone otherwise.
Like The Purist, we are using a rule that a miss is a miss, not 80% damage. Otherwise, this battle probably would have gone a totally different route, with the death of the Dragoons.
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Other points to the scenario - I left it up to the players who to attack, whether it would be a full gang up attack on House Kurita, or going for the FWL or the CC.
Until this point, there was a scenario rule that no more than 4 worlds per round could have an active OFFENSIVE campaign on them, or else the extras would have the "uncoordinated attack" penalty. Once the Fourth Succession War is declared, however, all gloves are now off.
at this point, some feedback:
Overall, the Lyran Commonwealth is the powerhouse in this game. Having vast quantities of troops in reserve, their economy is actually in rougher shape due to repeated raiding and sabotage strikes. As a for instance... Tamar and Skye both will not generate any revenue for another 11 months and 8 months respectively. Gienah is another world that won't generate revenue for some time.
Losing the veteran 1st Lyran Regulars will possibly impact the Lyrans; it's tough to say. The Inferior Doctrine penalty basically makes all Lyran units 1 step less in experience, though the effect is less pronounced with veteran/elite units. Oddly, the loss of damage from inferior doctrine is offset by the fanatical doctrine of the DCMS, so Lyran units still do "regular" damage at least. Fights against the FWL have been more limited but in their one big offensive against the FWL, the Lyrans were usually out-fought unless they brought significant numbers.
The FWL has struggled for many turns, only finding its stride recently with its economy and being able to produce some units, as well as make good on losses. Sabotage strikes all over as well as rampant terrorism (courtesy of Loki, mostly) have slowed the FWL substantially. They are finally in a place where they may just be able to reclaim lost worlds from the Lyrans.
The CC has struggled financially. The necessity of defending worlds constantly from raids as well as constantly being under blockades and requiring combat supply for Patrol missions, not to mention successful raids and sabotage efforts over the last 40 turns have meant that MANY turns, the CC was at a dangerous point with their RPs... often not able to afford to supply more than half their troops while maintaining a positive balance.
The FS has found itself able to muster a substantial attack finally; by slowly growing a bank of RPs. However, this was then endangered with a bad roll that resulted in having to renew all the Merc contracts in the Fed Suns, which lost the FS a few units, though they managed to re-hire most of them. Altogether, it will be interesting to see what happens now.
The DC has had the economy to experiment with units. The only power to create specialized units, they had 2 (now 1) LAM dedicated units for raiding, the Ryuken who now replace the lost merc units for patrols/commerce raiding, and have churned out new Sun Zhang Academy Cadres and An Ting Legions that fill out holes in service as they are trained up at Training Centres. They mercilessly used their merc units until they either died or left service, with only a few left in Combine service at the dawn of the 4th SW. In comparison, the Fed Suns tried keeping their merc units in good shape, which forced the CC to hunt them down and kill them to prevent additional raids. The DC did much the same, whenever a unit raided across the border, they typically would spend espionage to locate it, then hunt it down and kill it in punishment.
I've found the game well-balanced so far, though less-so for the CC in this era. However, they've also had some bad luck, whereas Lyran luck has been surprisingly good. Seriously. Lyran rolls have typically been great, and even when they've lost, such as at Mozirje, the other guy had it worse. Only early in the game when the Lyrans lost Zaniah and fought 3 attacks there that failed did the Lyrans have anything resembling bad luck.
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Interstellar Communications (ISaW)
Another gem in the crown that is 2nd Succession War are the rules around Interstellar Communications. These comms rule will work best with a GM as a number of developments need to be monitored. Players also need to realize that Tech R&D need not only be geared toward immediate returns but are also needed to stave off the worst of a ComStar Interdiction.
The basis of the rules is that all communications are sent via HPG Networks operated by ComStar. This places the communications in the hands of the “interstellar service provider” or “ISP” (a clever bit of word play) who’s staff (the GM) gets to see all orders transmitted by a Faction. As in the Uni-lore, ComStar could interfere with orders or block them entirely from the network. HGP networks cannot be capture.
ComTech and ISaW
ComStar provides what is the equivalent of ComTech Level 7 (see table page 144 of 2SW). This allows normal operations of the economy, transportation and the transmitting of orders and resources, especially to espionage Agents and Spec Ops teams. If a Faction loses its HPG network service it must fall back on its own ComTech Level. Orders sent by Factions with a ComTech Level of 0-2 arrive two turns later. With a ComTech Level 3-5 orders are received one turn later. A ComTech Level of 6 has the orders arrive the same turn but any movements to attack worlds from more than one system see the ‘Uncoordinated Attack’ values reduce by one (1), to a minium of one (1). ComTech Levels of 7 or higher are not affected by a lack of an ISP.
Faction that have been reduced to an area smaller than 7 hexes in diameter are considered to have a ComTech two levels higher than their actual level. If a Faction is reduced to just 3 hexes in diameter the ComTech level is treated 3 levels higher than the actual rating.
As can be seen by the effects table on page 145 the need to invest in ComTech, or prevent one’s neighbour from doing so, is an important aspect of the game’s strategy.
Interdiction
The ISP (ComStar for want of a better term) services can be withdrawn if the ISP feels the Faction has committed infractions of its neutrality by attacking the ISP’s resources, their protectorates or even regular clients. An Interdiction withdraws regular services with a number of impacts to the economy, transportation costs and Espionage TN modifiers (see table on page 144).
**NB – would a Spec Ops Sabotage or Black Ops mission also be affected by the “Espionage” TH modifiers? We went with yes as Spec/Black Ops orders follow the same rules for execution we figured the same problems arising with ‘Espionage’ from the Interdiction would apply – ie: receiving order, money, resources, etc.
Once an Interdiction is in place orders can only be sent via ”Pony Express” or “FAX2” methods described below. There are a few examples of interdiction effects on page 145 but the overall affects are serious to any war making plans a Faction may have.
For example: It is 3021 and the Draconis Combine, with ComTech of 1, incurs the rath of ComStar by conquering most of the Davion Draconis March and the District Capital of Robinson. The Draconis Combine will lose 30% of its industrial base (also affecting trade), the cost of movement will increase by 30% per interstellar hex and all Espionage/Spec/BO Ops TNs will receive a +6 modifier. Orders to Commands, Agents and Spec Ops teams could only be sent via “Pony Express”. Said orders arriving only after transiting from the Capital to the units involved at a rate of 4 interstellar hexes per turn.
If the DC had developed its ComTech level to the era maximum of Level 4 the the loss in income would only be 15%, transport costs increased by 15% and +3 to Espionage TNs. As 1st Generation FAX2 technology would be available the DC could send orders with only a one turn delay in receipt.
Triggering Interdiction
As noted on page 145 ComStar uses interdiction to punish those Faction who might show too much independence from its influence or become too powerful and perhaps threaten a run at becoming the new leader of a revived Star League, a role ComStar seeks to obtain.
During each End Phase the GM (ComStar) will check a series of ‘triggers’ to see if a Faction warrants an Interdiction. These triggers include:
- Capturing a Regional or National Capital
- Capture of a Major or Hyper Industrial world
- Capture 10 worlds from a single Faction in one turn
- Capture 15+ worlds from a single Faction in the past 3 turns
- A Faction occupies any one world controlled by the ISP (ie: Terra)
- Any associated actions in smaller-scale games (BT to ACS)
The Primus,… er, GM, rolls 2D6 for each listed infraction achieved on that turn. If the result is an 8+ the Interdiction is put in place during the next Orders Writing Phase.
**NB – as written above the phrase “achieved on that turn” is important. We understand this to mean that those same events from a previous turn that did not trigger an Interdiction will no longer be applicable.
For example: if the FWL captures 10 LC worlds in one turn but an Interdiction is not triggered then the following turn those 10 worlds would no longer count towards an Interdiction trigger.
Duration of Interdictions
An Interdiction will only be lifted when the ISP has been mollified. This can be done in a number of ways:
- Offering a 100 RP gift. More than one such gift can be made each turn.
- If the Interdiction is triggered by the capture of a Capital world it must returned to the original Faction owner (note the infrastructure need not be intact). The world must be evacuated by the interdicted Faction before the attempt to lift the interdiction is made.
- Return 10 worlds that can trace a valid supply line to original owner’s other worlds. As above, these worlds must be evacuated before the attempt to lift the interdiction is made.
During the End Phase the GM will roll 2D6 for each separate “act of appeasement”. If the result is an 8 or more the Interdiction is lifted. Note that an Interdiction will not be lifted if the world belonging to the ISP is occupied.
Other Communication Methods
If the ISP interdicts a Factions interstellar communications, that Faction has other methods of sending orders. These are not as efficient and are generally expensive and slower than via HGP networks.
Pony Express
Orders are sent via dropships and jumpships at a rate of 4 interstellar hexes per turn and at a cost of 2RP for each hex transited. The end point is the location of the Command who is to receive the order. Once the order arrives at the destination it may be executed the following turn.
Starting point for such orders are the Regional or National Capitals (Faction-wide interdiction) or the closest non-interdicted hex if the interdiction is local or specific to a unit or area.
**NB – we assumed the orders are moved in the movement phase along with Commands. This would mean that even if the last hexes of the path were less than four hexes those orders could not be acted upon until the next Orders Writing Phase.
Standing Orders
Standing orders can be given in advance of an interdiction and the fore will continue to carry out those orders until new orders arrive. These orders may be conditional.
As orders may be conditional we have figured that the more specific the orders are the more likely they will be followed as per the intent of the high command. The example on page 146 gives a good idea of the intent of standing orders.
FAX Communications (Black Boxes)
Orders transmitted by first generation FAX will arrive for use the following turn. Orders sent by second generation FAX will arrive the same turn but any ‘Uncoordinated Attack’ values should be reduced by one (1). As an example, a force led by a veteran command would only be allowed to use forces from 2 systems with a maximum of 5 Commands instead of drawing forces from 3 systems with a total of 6 Commands (see tables on page 367 of IO).
Further, FAX transmissions are non-directional so another faction that also has FAX technology may benefit from security leaks. When FAX orders are sent the GM will roll 1D6 and the resulting number will generate points that may be used by the opposing side of the FAX user for ACS/ISaW TN modifiers, positive or negative. As per the example on page 146 these modifiers cannot be used for combat or against other factions.
**NB – this raised a question as to how are these points to be used when orders have already been sent and the GM is executing them all “simultaneously”. We see two options –
1) that the recipient of the points would need to be notified of the pool gained and he would then modify his Espionage, Spec/Black Ops and Counter-Intelligence orders accordingly.
Or,
2) in the case of 1st generation FAX the points received could be used during the following turn’s Intel Ops Phase.
The rule does not mention an expiration time for using the points or whether the points can be accumulated from one turn to the next. An open ended use or ability to pile up such points could open the rule to abuse.
We assumed the points had to be used within the next turn or lost (information becomes stale), so no accumulating points would be allowed.
The Tech R&D, Intelligence Operations and Interstellar Communication rules are a well designed expansion set and add a lot of character to the ACS/ISaW campaign system. They add some serious depth to the game and help move the system beyond a strictly military 'move and shoot' model.
The fact that they are also fun only increases their value.
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Awww, shucks :-[
For example: if the FWL captures 10 LC worlds in one turn but an Interdiction is not triggered then the following turn those 10 worlds would no longer count towards an Interdiction trigger.
They should still count as to the "15 worlds in the last 3 turns" trigger, for the three turns. Straws, camel's back, etc
**NB – we assumed the orders are moved in the movement phase along with Commands. This would mean that even if the last hexes of the path were less than four hexes those orders could not be acted upon until the next Orders Writing Phase.
Yep.
2) in the case of 1st generation FAX the points received could be used during the following turn’s Intel Ops Phase.
The rule does not mention an expiration time for using the points or whether the points can be accumulated from one turn to the next. An open ended use or ability to pile up such points could open the rule abuse.
Option 2 is what was intended. As per duration ... I'd personally lean towards no expiry dates, but that might add too many complications and opportunities for abuse (eg. "I add -37 to the TN!"). For simplicity, and to avoid abuse, assume they must be used in that next turn, or get wasted. Tactical intelligence.
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*snip*
Option 2 is what was intended. As per duration ... I'd personally lean towards no expiry dates, but that might add too many complications and opportunities for abuse (eg. "I add -37 to the TN!"). For simplicity, and to avoid abuse, assume they must be used in that next turn, or get wasted. Tactical intelligence.
Another option would be to say that only a certain percentage (or even something like "a maximum of one point per turn") could be retained to represent "Strategic Intelligence"...
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Another option would be to say that only a certain percentage (or even something like "a maximum of one point per turn") could be retained to represent "Strategic Intelligence"...
I see what you mean but if an interdiction last six or seven turns we are still faced with a pool of negative modifiers. A year later a entire regions major factories suddenly explode. :o Most military intelligence that can be exploited in the manner used in the game tends to be 'transitory' and becomes stale very quickly.
I could see one point (total) being able to be retained but it would be easier to treat leaked intel more than one turn old as 'stale dated'.
Just my opinion.
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Now here is something that just came to mind regarding delayed orders.
If a command (or commands) were on a (District) Capital, could it receive an order immediately and execute them as there is no need for the HPG network.
This could be treated as a standing order and the troops are sent out by dropships to execute them whenever they arrive at their target. Or, the Command(s) might use a "command circuit" to race down to a jump off system (1 order and 1 IMP) then "aslt move" (1 order and 1 IMP) and "Attack" (1 order).
From the move orders on page 355 of IO this appears to be legal. After this initial turn the commands would have to rely of standing orders, FAX or 'pony express'
Command Circuits are expensive as hell but ... ;)
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Whoa. Okay, The_Purist, my hat is off to you. Finally getting into an actual war rather than raiding campaigns sure slows it down.
Whereas we were able to keep a pace of 5 or 6 rounds a week typically before, the 4th Succession War has ground that down so that the first wave of Operation Rat and Gotterdammerung took all week for us to have all the battles done.
The Federated Suns went with a canonical invasion, emulating Operation Rat with almost complete similar results. A few surprises were had, but 9 worlds fell to the FS
The Lyran Commonwealth went with a non-canonical invasion. Certainly, many of the targets were the same, but they coupled this with heavy raiding on a few FWL assets, and added a few more worlds to the list. In the end, 25 worlds were attacked by the LC in their assault, killing 6 Combine units. Of those attacks, 1 was repulsed, 8 are ongoing, and 16 worlds fell to the LC. 2 of the 8 ongoing fights are surprising; at Buckminster, the 2nd Sword of Light is winning after using highly enhanced extra aircraft and additional support units to have the 3rd Royal Guards on the run. The 2nd SoL used their militia as bait to lead the Royals into a trap and have been pounding them slowly ever since.
On Mozirje, the 1st Ghost Hunters Regiment, the Combine's experiment with LAMs, has tied down 2 Heavy Lyran Combat Commands, and has led them on a merry chase that has cost the Lyrans air superiority, all of their artillery, and isolated tank battalions and a light mech battalion. While the Ghosts had to sacrifice their infantry to keep mobility, they have slowly worn down and exhausted 2 entire combat commands... albeit at the loss of one of their own precious LAM battalions. The remaining 2 light mech battalions and 1 light LAM battalion fight on, supported by a light tank regiment.
The most amusing anecdote of the Lyran offensive was when 3 entirely new Heavy Regiments and combat support troops - totaling 3 mech regiments, 15 tank regiments, 7 air wings, 22 infantry regiments and 3 artillery batteries, landed on Skokie expecting combat... and finding 2 infantry regiments and 2 armor battalions there from militia troops, and that's it. The militia lasted less than 2 hours before surrendering. Spending a couple weeks searching for a hidden enemy (suspecting they had gone to ground) they eventually give up, realizing that their expected enemy was elsewhere. Apparently, intel was utterly wrong on this world...
The Lyrans lost the 7th Star Guards, which were utterly destroyed on Ko by the Dieron Regulars, before they were themselves destroyed by the (now) Elite 3rd Star Guards. Several other Lyran units were heavily damaged in the offensive.
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Notes about mercs again:
With proper intel, a merc unit CAN conquer a world... defended by a weak militia. A strong militia can, however, delay and/or defeat a mercenary invasion, which lacks the proper forces to win a battle of attrition.
Against a full Combat Command, a militia dies so quickly that there is barely even a fight usually. Only on the strongest worlds are they able to at least sometimes slow down a proper Combat Command.
However, a different note; an elite or veteran merc unit can tie down and/or wear down a green or regular House Command. It's tough, and requires some luck, but can be done. The Gray Death Legion is currently tying down a Dieron Regulars command, and has had some luck in whittling them down slowly, though it requires patience (as of 1 full ACS month, the GDL has taken some damage to all units, but killed the DR artillery, 2 infantry regiments, a tank battalion and a mech battalion). If the GDL gets caught by the entirety of the DR forces, they'll die; no argument. However, so far they've been able to keep their fighting isolated to a couple CUs at a time. It helps that in the Fog of war, the enemy doesn't know what they are facing and could be encountering far greater foes if they're not careful. The Kurita player consistently thought they were facing a full Combat Command AND the GDL until the last round of ACS combat. Now that they know differently, the combat will probably become more dangerous for the GDL.
On the other end of the spectrum, however, this does NOT work with anything less than a veteran rated merc unit. Really, it should only be attempted by Elite units or better, I think. (we gave the GDL an LR of 6, rather than the 4 for veteran, to account for leadership)
Example; the Waco Rangers (regular) attempted a similar feat, and were squashed by the Rasalhague Regulars for their troubles. A lone mech battalion escaped Hyperion, with all the rest abandoned as salvage and loot to the local Draconis forces.
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Hello, all.
I'm just getting to reading this thread. Been away from the forums for a long while due to a punishing travel schedule. From the little I've read so far, some comments.
- Thanks for Worktroll jumping in and making comments. He was a key person in helping ISW come about.
- Thanks for the play by play. As WT said, it's hard to play test something like this.
- We know there are issues: As mentioned, over in the ACS thread, there were some late changes to the scope and content that were not fully understood. Because of that, we have gaps and holes in the rules that were not there in the earlier drafts.
Thanks,
Joel "Welshman"
ISW, ACS, SBF lead developer
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No worries Welshman. I've never known a war game to be perfect in its first iteration and as has been explained, there were issues of time, space and budget.
I've started posting the questions regarding ISaW up in the game rules forums (Strategic Combat). We can use that space to start adding some muscle to the rules where the bones are showing through. :thumbsup:
I think most of the questions will actually be request for clarifications or additional scope better explain a rule or how it is intended to work.
Cheers.
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As the 4th SW rolls into the 2nd month, and the number of combats is high, a couple other notes:
1. Strategic Initiative is key. The Purist talked about this with the double steamroller offensive on the Fed Suns in his campaign. In our 4th SW, canon is being recreated because the Lyrans and FS are getting to do the attacking. By choosing the targets, the FC Alliance is choosing when to overwhelm a local militia, or with an attack on a target that they can send additional numbers to ensure the likely defeat of said Combat Command. By often pitting numbers of 3:1 against defenders, they minimize casualties while obliterating the force they oppose. Economically, as has been pointed out in other topics, the FC are out-matched if their foes can bring their might to bear. The question is, they have to find the opponent to do so (via espionage or recon raids). Destroying or damaging units is far more important than taking some "other" world that won't even contribute to your economy for several rounds, and even then, is worth less than what it took to capture it for years.
Killing or crippling a Combat Command that was defending it? That, on the other hand, is worth far more than the value of the world.
2. A suitable reserve. This bears into Operation Rat then, as well as all borders. The Lyrans built up a sizeable reserve force of Combat Commands for their portion; the Fed Suns began with a larger force that they are able to leverage into reserves for trouble areas.
The Dragon begins oddly with some reserves, but faces the most dangerous opponents and thus has to choose where to sling those reserves. Happily, the DC has the economy to build more reserves, which they have (and just in time). Unhappily, due to scenario rules, they are also losing valuable troops to being killed by the Wolf's Dragoons. Still, the Lyran border is - while daunting - something that the Dragon seems able to contain while even launching attacks into the FS.
The CC and FWL lacked the ability to build substantial reserves in the early game, though the FWL is finally able to begin that now.
The Purist spoke about bringing in relief troops for garrisons, which is exactly what we are also seeing in our game; an initial assault wave, reserves brought in for garrisons and to resolve contested worlds, while troops rest/repair for the next wave. The Capellans don't have this capacity as they are in a sheer struggle for survival. I suspect the FWL will have this ability, though they've had some bad luck with their economy rolls right when the war started.
As the war progresses, I'll be very curious as to how well the FWL and DC offensives (into the LC and FS respectively) progress, especially as the DC tries to handle the LC as well.
It's also rather amazing how quickly all that saved up treasury is dwindling ... and the war has just started!
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In August, the war begins everywhere, not just the FS/CC front and the LC/DC front.
The FWL begins cautiously, sending out a number of raids on 5 different targets on the Lyran border.
A daring special ops mission takes out Capellan comms in sector (aka hex) 2426
The CC is out-generalled by the FS. While the 1st Wave of Operation Rat was exactly the same 9 worlds as
in canon, this time, several different worlds are attacked... and Tikonov fortifies in expectation of an
attack that never arrives. Instead, Ronel, Tigress, Tybalt and Azha are attacked, plus several other
worlds. All fall to the Suns, though the Screaming Eagles take serious damage on New Canton. Laurel's Legion accepts employment and garrison duty on their homeworld
of Tigress, rather than internment.
The LC and DC front has reinforcements arrive on both sides over the disputed worlds. The Lyrans send a reserve force of 5 Regiments, the Dragon
sending 3.
Finally, the Dragon locates part of the Wolf's Dragoons and the Veteran 8th Galedon Regulars are dispatched to
attack them. They are bogged down immediately.
The attack on Weingarten continues to bog down, as both sides struggle to find supplies. A few
other worlds fall to Lyran attacks, the main and biggest being Buckminster, when the 2nd Federated Commonwealth Combat
Team lands to reinforce the 3rd Lyran Royal Guard, trapping the 2nd Sword of Light in a pincer. While the SoL has air superiority,
it runs afoul of a lack of supplies and is caught in a close assault that crushes the Sword utterly.
Meanwhile, on Sabik, Barret's Fusiliers are destroyed by the local militia, who then go on to hold off the 1st FCCT until
relieved by the newly constituted 37th Dieron Regulars. The 1st FCCT now faces a dangerous militia,
with a full Combat Command as well backing it up, and air superiority by the Dragon. Lyran High Command winces at the losses.
The Grey Death Legion are relieved by reinforcements on Shionoha that destroy the Regulars there.
A few Capellan units never arrive back at their fallback positions; parts of the 1st and 4th Confederation Reserve Cavalry. It's a mystery where they
ended up...
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:popcorn:
Fresh Coke in the fridge (beer illegal over here :()
One GM adder I came up were a series of historicalevent 'cards'. These included:
Anton Marik Rebellion (Control of Rebel forces,.. played by Liao in our case but the FS gave it a good try)
Archon Katrina's Peace Proposal (Played by the LC to effect the balance of power)
"Hanse and Melissa" (LC and FS Alliance,.... or not?)
Tikonov Republic (control over the TR forces)
"The Madness of the King" <St Ives Seccession> (St Ives withdraws from the CC)
Andurien Seccession (control of Andurien/MoC invasion of the CC)
Isle of Skye Seccession (Isle of Skye Rebellion)
Free Rasalhauge Republic (Establish Free Rasalhague Republic; "enemy" controls Ronin commands)
Coming of the Clans (still thinking this one through,... maybe change the change the entry area of the first wave of Clan Invasions. That could be nasty :brew: )
Each card has (had) a time frame they are (were) active for and a TN of 8. Each also possesses certain "triggers" that lower the TN by 1 or 2. They can be played by any Faction although the historical player(s) have first crack and in some cases a Faction may actually have TN penalty.
To be honest, I don't see the FWL playing the Andurien Succession against itself. Maybe to get out of the 4th SW?
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You mean "secession", right?
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I like the idea, but you have to take it further.
1) Have official subdivisions into provinces
2) Track combat units as provincial or federal
3) Have more leaders, some of which are just place-holders, a few who offer advantages
4) Expand the intel rules to cover affecting loyalty, and subversion, of leaders as well as assassination.
Then the historical cards become slightly less specific. Each should require pre-conditions to be met, and shouldn't be trivial, eg
Civil war!
Requirements:
- Leader of province with -3 loyalty, in province
- More provincial units in province than non-provincial
- More combat strength in province than 25% of all other combat units
- Three successful propaganda ops against the nation in the last 3 turns
Provincial leader, all provincial units (regardless of location) become independant (either NPC, or new player entity). Merc units in the province join the secessionists on 7+, roll per mercenary command. Federal player loses all RP from the province, or captured worlds adjacent to it.
This way, you can get the Marik Civil War, St ives succession, or alternative outcomes like Capellan March secession, or the Raslehaguians going their own way early.
You can, however, imagine how much additional detail suddenly has to be tracked ...
W.
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I like the idea, but you have to take it further.
1) Have official subdivisions into provinces
2) Track combat units as provincial or federal
3) Have more leaders, some of which are just place-holders, a few who offer advantages
4) Expand the intel rules to cover affecting loyalty, and subversion, of leaders as well as assassination.
Then the historical cards become slightly less specific. Each should require pre-conditions to be met, and shouldn't be trivial, eg
Civil war!
Requirements:
- Leader of province with -3 loyalty, in province
- More provincial units in province than non-provincial
- More combat strength in province than 25% of all other combat units
- Three successful propaganda ops against the nation in the last 3 turns
Provincial leader, all provincial units (regardless of location) become independant (either NPC, or new player entity). Merc units in the province join the secessionists on 7+, roll per mercenary command. Federal player loses all RP from the province, or captured worlds adjacent to it.
This way, you can get the Marik Civil War, St ives succession, or alternative outcomes like Capellan March secession, or the Raslehaguians going their own way early.
You can, however, imagine how much additional detail suddenly has to be tracked ...
W.
Yeesh. And I thought I was bad for creating a rule for Federal and Provincial troops for the FWL.
:P
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You mean "secession", right?
Did I ever mention how much I hate Android devices and their bloody auto correct. My fault for not proof reading later.
I normally edit posts as I find typos even if weeks and months after the original date
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I like the idea, but you have to take it further...<snip>
;D. Yaaaa, about that,... I was leaning more toward "keep it simple" to avoid too much paperwork but for those who have the desire, your direction would be fine. :thumbsup:
I do wonder about abuse if not properly tested. Players may change their focus from stompiness and conquest to political manipulation. Still,...ya know,... the more one thinks about it (thinking hard)
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I do wonder about abuse if not properly tested. Players may change their focus from stompiness and conquest to political manipulation. Still,...ya know,... the more one thinks about it (thinking hard)
You say that like it´s a bad thing.
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Well, that depends on what you sort of experience you are looking for. Do you want a game like the old Avalon Hill "Origins of the Second World War" (politics to set up a military campaign) or "Advanced Third Reich/Rising Sun" (global conquest with some politics) 8)
I am not sure if you know those games but an old war gamers will understand the reference.
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Wave 3 of Operation Rat and the follow up attacks in Lyran Space proceeds.
Tikonov is invaded now, and while the Crucis Lancers gain early air superiority,
the STAGGERING amount of artillery on the Capellan side evens the scales. 12 total
artillery batteries (4 artillery regiments???) open up a can of whoop ass on FS troops. Capellan
troops are deeply entrenched, and force the FS to engage at near close range in many fights, with
casualties incredibly high. Capellan forces have been preparing for 3 months for this fight, and aren't
at all bothered by other reverses. In the end, the Capellans retreat off-world with close to 60% losses
but inflict a great deal of damage to the Crucis Lancers. The Lancers punish the Capellans in the end
by destroying the dropships of the 1st Tau Ceti Rangers as they attempt to escape, killing all aboard.
Other Wave 3 targets are also successful, mostly hitting worlds protected by militia.
Comstar threatens interdiction on both the FS and the LC, and is bought off with substantial upgrade fees on HPGs to reverse their stance.
On the Lyran front, the follow up attacks net several worlds, but Draconis counter-offensives hit 8 worlds. Meanwhile, the FWL again cautiously joins the war, with several more raids and
an attack to reclaim Galisteo, and conquer Gienah. Both attacks are successful, though FWL losses are higher than expected.
The Draconis counter-attack destroys the 2nd FCCT on Buckminster, at the loss of the 4th Arkab Legion.
Buckminster remained in Lyran hands for less than a month.. 5 other worlds fall back into DCMS hands, though 2 attacks are repulsed by Lyran garrisons.
In a major supply and order screw-up, the 37th Dieron is given conflicting orders, and ships out, abandoning
the Sabik militia, to counter-attack at Vega...while having no supplies. Sabik and Weingarten continue to stalemate.
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Game changing (almost) - the Comstar Interdiction stepped in and was lifted, for both the FS and LC in one round.
An earlier interdict was interesting, and without revealing too much, even one round of it has hurt the FS economy substantially. The rules for interdiction and comstar involvement virtually guarantee Interdiction in large offensives, as both the FS and LC qualified in many ways. The FS for taking a Regional Capital and Major Industrial World AND for taking over 15 worlds in the last 3 rounds.
The LC for the large offensive and ALSO for taking over 15 worlds.
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I am bit surprised that with a TN of 8 the interdictions hit right away but as they were lifted just as quickly the pain should not have been too great. That is why IndTech and ComTech at Lvl 4 is so important before launching a major war (at least for 3025).
Don't forget that FAX orders only delay implementation by one turn. ;)
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Well, the key is that it's for EACH of the events.
So, for the Lyran side, they captured 15 or more worlds AND captured
a total of 10 worlds. That's 2 rolls of 8+ after the 1st round of Operation
Gotterdammerung
On the FS side, the first month saw the capture of a minor industrial and several other worlds.
So, no test the first round.
Second round the Lyrans STILL have to test as they captured 15 or more worlds in the last 3 turns.
The FS now tests for the same.
Third round, the FS now has to test three times; twice for Tikonov (as a Major AND a Regional), and once for 15+ worlds.
The LC still has to test for 15+worlds AND captures another 10 worlds.
The FS player has been very careful about not attacking more than 9 worlds a round to prevent an additional test. The Lyran...
not so much.
So... in three rounds, Comstar tested an Interdiction 4 times for the FS, and 4 times for the LC. Probability is that they would get it for sure; most likely on the 2nd round. Which they did. Standing orders prevented the Interdiction from having much of an effect... that round... due to the LC and FS having created war plans and given standing orders as to what will happen next for the offensive. It STILL had a minor effect; orders to move troops to Gienah to block an anticipated FWL offensive never arrived, and thus Gienah was only defended by militia, and conquered handily by the 20th Marik Militia. It also prevented a Lyran Regulars regiment from getting move orders to retreat off the FWL front, and was caught and nearly wiped out on Galisteo. They only got to retreat due to "overwhelming force" rules.
Now. We DID have a rules discussion about whether if you had tested once for 15+ worlds in 3 turns whether you had to KEEP testing for it til you no longer had captured 15 in the last 3 (due to expiry). That's a rules question going to ask, I think. Thoughts? We went with that it still keeps being tested for. Which means that the major offensives are tough to throw without interdictions.
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...Now. We DID have a rules discussion about whether if you had tested once for 15+ worlds in 3 turns whether you had to KEEP testing for it til you no longer had captured 15 in the last 3 (due to expiry). That's a rules question going to ask, I think. Thoughts? We went with that it still keeps being tested for. Which means that the major offensives are tough to throw without interdictions.
Discussed this with Worktroll in the review of the Insterstellar Communications rule section. If you pass a check, that check is now null and void. So the 15+ worlds in three turns check is not repeated every turn. You do not check for those planets again but you do reset the counter to zero. It is the same with Major and Regional planets. If the check is successful and interdiction avoided you get a pass from ComStar. Take Tikonov and pass? Next check for a region capital would be Sarna or Capella.
The 4th SW 'history is a good guide here. The fall of Tikonove did not trigger an interdiction nor did the fall of 'other planets. What finally triggered the interdiction was the (faked) attack on a ComStar facility. It took many months before the interdiction hit.
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Fair nuff. So, we have had an extra couple checks, looks like.
Still. For the first 4 waves, Operation Rat still would be 5 checks in total for amts of worlds, and Tikonov (which gets 2 checks).
The Lyrans then will only get 4 checks looks like, barring taking a major world.
Odds are good for an Interdiction.
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Fair nuff…<asnip>...Odds are good for an Interdiction.
Absolutely, one thing we've seen in the FWL offensive into the LC was 'pacing' and avoiding 'broken supply lines'. This means an average of 6-7 planets attacked each turn at most. It an interesting strategy but then again the forces involved are not nearly as concentrated as those that took part in the initial waves of the 4th SW.
As GM I was waiting with baited breath to see if the FS would strike at Galedon V of the FWL would make a go Hesperus II. Sadly,... neither offensive has gotten that far so my 'Interdiction Meter' has remained in the green. :(
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turn 46 (october, 3028)
A big month. Another part of the Lyran offensive launches, hitting 6 more DC worlds while
the FWL cautiously attacks another couple worlds, formerly owned by them. The LC also launches a limited FWL front, with a counter-offensive at Gienah and a strike at the border world of Thermopolis.
The DC falls back from Weingarten, but continues to reinforce on Heiligendreuz and Sabik.
The war against the Dragoons continues on the FS border.
The CC launches their counter-attack; not blinded by stupid pills, they hit Styk with the entire Big Mac. Meanwhile, an attack is launched on Axton - no raid, but a full attack, and a raid is also launched on Kathil. A final, smaller counter-offensive is launched from Bharat at Arboris by a mixed bag of Capellan surviving units - 2nd Ariana
Fusiliers, Hamilton's Highlanders, Trimaldi's Secutors and MacGregors Armoured Scouts.
Fed Suns meanwhile rolls ahead with wave 4 of Operation Rat. A surprise raid on Sian is also launched.
Several mercenary units leave the Capellan Confederation and the Taurian Concordat. Their contracts are picked up by the FS in some cases, or by the Taurians in a strange trade.
Notes: The CC has a larger budget this month due to a serious lack of forces to have to supply. Between losing some mercs as well as severe losses at Tikonov and then subsequent desertion/mutiny, the CC is a shadow of their former self. It's what allows the counter-offensive to go ahead.
The Axton strike for the CC fails, as the Red Lancers and Freemont's Cuirassiers run afoul of the 11th Avalon Hussars. The militia
of the world is destroyed, but buys the Hussars the time they need to badly damage the Cuirassiers, while the Red Lancers
run afoul of repeated air strikes when the Hussars gain air superiority. Repeated artillery strikes badly damage the Hussars,
and several engagements prove the superiority of the Red Lancers, but they are unable to land a decisive blow, and so retreat by the
end of the month, rather then being drawn into a prolonged campaign. The net result is that the Cuirassiers 2nd battalion and battle group is effectively destroyed; the 11th Avalon hussars sustain approximately 60% casualties. The Red Lancers lose a few armour battalions and infantry
units, but remain combat effective.
Devon's Armoured Infantry successfully raid and damage Kathil facilities, hurting the FS economy that is already drained fighting the CC especially in light of a recent and brief Interdiction.
The Big MAC reclaim Styk for the Confederation, destroying garrison forces and the 20th Avalon Hussars... in exchange for losing 3 entire
regiments of the MAC. Analysts are uncertain if the cost was worth the gain...
On Arboris, a counter-offensive doesn't find the expected Davion forces, instead finding only the bolstered Blue Star Irregulars, who had
so victimized Capellan industry years before. Both sides hated each other with a passion, as the BSI had suffered head-hunter attacks at the hands
of Capellan troops. No quarter is given, nor received between these 2 forces. In the end, the Capellans are victorious, with the once proud BSI managing to withdraw
a single armour battalion and an air wing covering it. The Capellans after salvage are STILL down a mech regiment and an armour battalion, plus 1
air wing by the ferocious defence mounted by the BSI... observers again ask if it was worth it...
On the DC front, the DC reinforces at Heiliendreuz, but so does the LC - and where the DC sends Green forces in the form of the 13th Rasalhague Regulars, the
Lyrans send the Veteran 8th Donegal Guards who proceed to crush the 13th. The beleaguered 22nd Rasalhague look on in horror as their relief are utterly destroyed,
and now face numbers almost triple their own... Meanwhile, on the FS front, they continue their war with the Dragoons, which shows no sign of ending.
The FWL recaptures Epsilon, badly damaging the Lyran Guard regiment there. However, an attack on Mcaffe fails, as the Lyran Royal Guard regiment there is too much
for FWL forces to face; in the end, while they inflict more damage than they take, the FWL commanders enact a fighting withdrawal against the Veteran regiment.
On the LC front, the next wave of attacks capture another 5 DC worlds. The battle of Sabik continues, though the LC starts to seem to gain the upper hand, having landed
3 regiments against the 8th DR after destroying their reinforcing units as well as finally obliterating the pesky militia that somehow survived 4 months against the Lyrans (GM note; I was sad that the Lyrans finally managed to pin down and destroy this militia, that almost had become a Veteran unit due to experience).
Lyran assaults also begin the 3rd Battle of Buckminster and the 3rd Battle of Vega, in an effort to pin down or destroy more Draconis regiments. On Buckminster, the 10th Lyran
Guard spearhead an attack with the 23rd Arcturan Guard dropping directly on top of the 6th Arkab Legion while an air battle commences around them. The 6th are utterly shattered by the surprise tactic; the newly deployed 18th Benjamin Regulars attempt to face down the long odds of the 2 elite Lyran regiments, but in a battle that quickly overwhelms them are completely destroyed.
Buckminster again falls into Lyran hands. On Vega, Theodore Kurita's Legions of Vega and Dieron Regulars face elite units of the LC; the 20th Arcturan Guard, the 4th Skye Rangers and
the 3rd regiment of the 12 Star Guards. While the DCMS forces put up a valiant defence, the quality and numbers of troops that the Lyrans land, in addition to using the same tactics as Buckminster
of landing directly on top of the DCMS forces shatters them. The Dieron Regulars are crushed, and the Legion of Vega manages to get off-world, with Theodore Kurita again shaking his fist impotently at the Lyrans.
The LC also flexes their military might, counter-attacking at Gienah and launching an attack to claim the industrial facilities at Thermopolis. However, the 3rd Sirian Lancers
accompanied by Fuchida's Fusiliers repulse the attack at Thermopolis. Oddly, the Lyrans inflicted more damage than they took, but their morale was shaken and decided to withdraw before a disaster could occur, preserving precious forces.
The Lyran counter-offensive at Gienah destroys the 20th Marik Militia, at the expense of the 5th Donegal Guards. Lyran forces are still perilously thin on the FWL border, but holding...
As November rolls in, and 4 months of conflict have ended, a look at the results shows:
the FWL has re-captured 2 worlds from the LC that were lost years before
the LC still holds 5 worlds from the FWL that were captured years previous, as well as 42 worlds from the DC. There are 2 prolonged campaigns, at Heiligendreuz and Sabik, where the worlds are disputed. Both worlds have Lyran forces outnumbering local DCMS forces 3:1
The DC has so far gained no worlds from the FS, disputing 2.
The FS has taken 37 worlds from the CC, after accounting for losing Styk and Arboris to a Capellan counter-offensive. Admittedly, one of those worlds captured is Tikonov, a Regional Capital and Major Industrial World.
The CC counter-offensive restored some national pride; losses at Axton were tempered by a successful raid at Kathil and the re-capture of Styk, along with almost completely destroying the Blue Star Irregulars once and for all. War industries have kicked in for a desperate attempt to rebuild what they can in preparation for a better counter-attack.
So far, canon results are being basically upheld, though the Capellan counter-attack at least is a bit better than canon.
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I hope the FS rebuilds the BSI... they put up a heck of a fight there...
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I hope the FS rebuilds the BSI... they put up a heck of a fight there...
Heh. That's exactly why my FS player was asking for a discount on repairing merc units. See the merc thread.
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Aha... I suspected as much when I saw that post... :)
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Cracking good stuff, Epic. Congrats to Max Liao in driving into Fed Sun territory deep enough so that a raid could reach Kathil.
Our CC has also found that losses make supplies easier, at least in the short term. The loss of six or seven commands can make shifting reserves a bit easier. They have slowly been rebuilding lost commands to fill the gaps in the front. It will be interesting to see how long the CCAF can hang on before the lack of commands, albeit ones with supplies, begins to accelerate the loss of more systems.
Then again the pace of the FS offensive seems to be higher than the canon 4th SW and the leap frogging seems to be working well. Do you think the FS might need a month or two of lower intensity battles to catch their breath?
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Cracking good stuff, Epic. Congrats to Max Liao in driving into Fed Sun territory deep enough so that a raid could reach Kathil.
Our CC has also found that losses make supplies easier, at least in the short term. The loss of six or seven commands can make shifting reserves a bit easier. They have slow Ben rebuilding lost commands to fill the gaps in the front. It will be interesting to see how long the CCAF can hang on before the lack of commands, albeit ones with supplies, begins to accelerate the loss of more systems.
Then again the pace of the FS offensive seems to be higher than the canon 4th SW and the leap frogging seems to be working well. Do you think the FS might need a month or two of lower intensity battles to catch their breath?
Oddly, the FS is actually behind the canon results. With the loss of Styk and Arboris, they are 4 worlds behind what they had captured in canon.
The LC is ahead, looks like.
Without revealing the turn stuff too much yet (some players still have to submit their next turns), I suspect that there will be a rest here for some of them. It's well known that the FWL has a lot of RP to burn still (he's been bragging, you see...) but the rest at their present rates of expenditure are probably running low.
In this case, the difference is that the war technically began 2 months earlier than canon. Started in early July, rather than late August/early September.
I can say with all honesty that the reason the LC is succeeding so well is their strategic reserve being so big. Also, capturing worlds from the DC has meant that more of those worlds start contributing RP sooner. Only a few of the CC worlds captured by the FS are ready to finally start contributing some resources to the FS war effort, due to Poison Pill. Originally, I didn't think that ability was going to be worth it, but the requirement of having to leave garrison forces there for that length of time to keep it pacified REALLY slows an offensive down. In the 4SW Atlas, there are a few brief mentions of specific garrison forces rotating in, freeing up the Front line units to then fight again. You also have spoken about that in your campaign.
The FS... didn't build those. Perhaps an extra turn or two to build several green combat commands that could have done it would have helped.
The LC just built more front line units to begin with, due to having the economy for it. Then slowly training them at training centres for 3 years from wet behind the ears to regulars.
Then only having to garrison for 2 rather than 4 turns on a given minor world... they can keep the pace of their offensive far higher than the FS. Net result; the LC really prepared for a war, and is doing well because of it.
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Your mention of the supply challenges your team is facing is what we have been seeing in our version. In our game we are wrapping up Dec 3020, and going into Jan 3021 at least three of the five Houses will likely come up short of supply by nearly 300 RP. That means a lot commands will be unsupplied, with all the risks that come with it. Thankfully, the enemy never knows exactly who is unsupplied so the impact can be muted somewhat.
One tactic the FS has used when supplies become scarce (a fairly regular event for the AFFS) is to select a number of commands and have them shuffle to the rear and given repair orders. This way when 'prolonged neglect' begins to bite the 10% armour loss can be repaired (even with +50% cost) without the command suffering too much.
Interesting that the LC doesn't seem to have this problem 8) ,....unless they try very, very hard.
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Turn 47
As suspected, November 3028 has a serious lull in the fighting.
On the CC front, all is quiet. Too quiet? Forces rush into different areas for both the FS and the CC, and while a few skirmishes occur between patrols in systems,
nothing significant occurs.
On the DC front, the DCMS tries to extract their seriously outnumbered forces from Heiligendreuz and Sabik. The 22nd Rasalhague Regulars manage to evade their enemies and get off of Heiligendreuz. The 8th Dieron Regulars do not make it off Sabik; having taken too much damage and lacking supplies, their forces lag behind and this allows Lyran forces to catch them... and obliterate them before they can make a withdrawal. Both worlds fall to the LC.
Worse, the 21st Galedon Regulars are stung repeatedly by Delta and Epsilon Regiments of the Wolf's Dragoons on Glenmora, losing a lot of personnel. The Dragon's embarrassment is widely felt by the warlords.
The FWL launches new attacks, this time into the Isle of Skye. Zavijava and Lipton both fall to surprise FWL attacks. The Duke of Skye protests vigourously over these newest FWL encroachments, and the LC high command considers their next moves...
LC forces show a number of troop movements along the borders in a series of adjustments.
A Lyran raid is supposedly dispatch to a pirate jump point at Tamarind to hit FWL facilities there... but the ship never arrives. A massive jump failure causes the raiding force to never materialize.
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Yup. That was a quick round. Pretty much everyone had to catch their breaths.
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Notes: it's after the 4th Wave completes of Operation Rat that the 4SW really has difficulty being fully simulated by the rules as presented in ISaW. Some scenario rules can be implemented to create this, but it would be even more unfair for the CC player.
While we toyed with the notion of a straight non-aggression treaty as Candace Liao had Xiang deliver to House Davion so that the St Ives Commonality couldn't be attacked, and the formation of the Tikonov Free Republic, these options would make an already taxed CC even more vulnerable.
So... at this point, we fully diverge from the canon events. Reasoning here was simple; the FS player simply refused the St Ives offer, and begins attacks there, reasoning (somewhat correctly) that an untouched St Ives still will supply a fair amount of RP to the Capellan war effort.
With also attacks closer to Terra, the FS prevents the formation of the TFR, in an effort to fully destroy the units and claim the entirety of the Confederation.
While I was planning on finishing the rest of the 4SW - and will still with my players - I will end posting here as the divergence is sufficient.
What I will post is the scenario rules that we DID create as well as final thoughts and feedback.
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Scenario rules:
FS player MUST engage in at least 3 Successful MOS 7+ Propaganda operation before 3028 (Operation Galahad)
LC player MUST engage in at least 2 Successful MOS 7+ Propaganda operation before 3028 (Operation Thor and subsequent moving of troops)
CC player must engage in at least one Successful MOS 7+ Black op before 3026 (turning Michael Hasek-Davion or alternatively, the Hanse Doppleganger)
CC must conquer 1 FS world before 3026 (CC did attack a world in 3025)
DC must build at least 6 new Combat Commands before 3028 (Ryuken, Genyosha - also to deal with the possible loss of mercs in 3028, the Ryuken would go on to become the de facto patrol units and commerce raiders)
DC must invade Galtor before end of 3025 (Galtor Campaign)
DC must attempt to conquer one additional FS World before end of 3026 that has a defending combat command
DC must successfully raid any 2 border worlds by end of 3027 of a major power (non-periphery)
LC must create at least 1 Assault Mech regiment Combat Command before 3028 that has its own jumpships (the Tyr)
LC must create at least 1 more Combat command before 3029 (the First Federated Commonwealth Combat Team)
FWL must conquer 1 Lyran world before end of 3025
FWL must successfully raid one Lyran industrial world before end of 3026
There would be Faction Traits assigned/lost if these conditions were not met. The above was an intent to at least force the basic canon events to be paid for by Houses (such as Operations Galahad/Thor). Each player was given these conditions in secret, so that the other players did not know.
Additionally:
Until the start of the 4SW, no House or power can attack more than 4 worlds on each front per round. Failure to adhere to this (attacking more) would cause all attacks to get the uncoordinated attack penalty.
Wolf's Dragoons change to Questionable Loyalty in 3028, to signify pending contract renegotiation
Northwind Highlanders are changed to Questionable Loyalty in 3028 to signify pending contract changes.
No Capellan March Militia unit or unit of the Syrtis Fusiliers can be moved out of the Capellan March until 5 turns after the war is declared.
FWL units must be built as either Provincial forces or Federal forces. Provincial forces get a 10% discount, but only 1/4 Provincial units are available at any given time to be on a world that was not an FWL world at game start. Federal forces have an additional cost multiplier of 10% but can always be used.
FS and LC players were free to exchange intel and assist with research every turn.
CC, FWL and DC players were only allowed to exchange intel and assist with research every 3rd turn until the 4SW started. This was to simulate Concord lack of cooperation.
CC and FWL players can not have a trade treaty due to mutual distrust.
Starting January 3028, a penalty begins accruing monthly for Mercenary retention in the DC, until a failed roll results in mercenaries leaving service. At this point, this triggers the possibility of the FC alliance declaring war. They can not do so until mercenaries have attempted to leave service from the DCMS, whether or not they successfully hire said mercs or not. Penalty then disappears for merc retention for the DC player.
The 4SW begins when the Lyrans and FS begin their full Operation, "declaring war" on one target apiece (they could have chosen any single target). At this point, the uncoordinated attack penalty disappears for all invasions barring standard rules for such.
Once the 4SW begins, the CC also begins to accrue a penalty to merc retention rolls to signify that they could/will lose the Northwind Highlanders. Once a failed retention roll results, whether or not they successfully re-hire said mercs or not, penalty then disappears for merc retention for the CC player.
DC player MUST attack any Merc units that left and joined House Davion on the FS border (within 1 hex) before launching any other attacks into FS territory. Each merc unit must be attacked with a minimum of 1 Combat Command (to simulate the private Dragon/Dragoon war)
ANY R&D beyond starting levels, when a level of tech is gained, is a trigger for Comstar Interdiction roll. This was a big one, attempting to limit the amount of R&D. It could be removed if the player simply relinquished the level of tech again. Players still did their R&D, hoping Comstar wouldn't find out.
Comstar also had roving spec ops teams trying to take out any R&D
As stated previously, we used simplified raiding rules rather than the full rules. The major advantage of using the simplified rules is that it fits the 3SW and speeds turn resolution. Doing SBF or ACS for each raid would have vastly slowed down turn resolution. It DID create some oddities for xp; most of the Wolf's Dragoons, for instance, at the start of the 4SW were Heroic status due to xp gain from raiding the FS border. Some defending units in the CC at Ares and St Ives experienced the same, as did Chisholm's Raiders.
As mentioned earlier, we toyed with special rules for the creation of the TFR and St Ives Compact. One other thought was to use special operations to create rebellions in the worlds that would become the TFR, but it's 20 worlds; gaining 20 successful special ops while there are also combat commands there, even with MORE successful Terrorism ops would have been nigh impossible and cost far more than the cost of simply just invading.
In the end, the FS player decided he was just going to want the worlds anyways, so we scrapped the rules.
The original notion was to have a test every round after all wave 4 targets were captured at an 8+, and if this occurs, the TFR would form. It would then test on a regiment level for each unit remaining in the area assuming they had morale 7, with a penalty of 2 (nullifying the bonus CC gets for their Faction Trait for desertion) to the roll. Anyone that "fails" the morale check, joins the TFR. Any that succeeded would either desert and escape to the Confederation, or be purged by Ridzik (effectively destroyed).
The CC player could choose to have an independent Non-aggession pact with the FS after 30+ worlds are taken by the FS; doing so "freezes" all St Ives units in the Commonality (they can't move) and/or also forces remaining St Ives units to return to the Commonality but also prevents the FS from attacking or raiding anywhere in the St Ives Commonality. The CC player chooses whether to offer this, and the FS can choose whether to accept.
The St Ives Compact would only form with a successful raid on Sian and then a test of 8+, with the conditions that: 1. The TFR formed. 2. All other worlds in the Tikonov and Sarna Commonalities had fallen to either the FS or FWL. 3. The non-aggression pact with the FS was agreed to and adhered to.
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Additionally, we used the talked about options about upping the Lyran RP to match what is in IO rather than what they ACTUALLY had when counting worlds.
This mean upgrading a few worlds to minor AND we went with upgrading Hesperus II to a Hyper. We didn't quite use the same recommendations on a previous thread, but the balance worked out the same, so that the LC had the listed RP as in IO.
In retrospect... I think this was a mistake. The LC player dominated precisely because they had so much RP that they just churned out units en masse.
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Additionally, we had a rule that ALL Periphery borders not inhabited by a major Periphery power (OA, MoC, TC) had to have patrols. Any hex that did not have a patrol automatically was subject to possible pirate attacks - in the form of either Commerce Raids or supply raids.
Periphery powers were controlled by the GM. They each had aims; the TC was to secure its border with the FS, and occasionally throw special ops at the FS industry, to prevent them from attacking. The MoC wanted to build up forces and industry to prep to someday invade the CC - the goal was to get to battletech level 3 and industry tech 4, and then invade neutral worlds in the future Fronc Reaches/Aurigan and establish bases there that could then supply the CC invasion. If this occurred before the end of the 4SW, then the MoC could have entered as a combatant. As of early 3029, they still don't have these pre-conditions.
The OA was originally going to be neutral, but the DC so badly ticked them off by forcing a trade agreement that the OA aims changed to: once the DC starts getting its butt kicked by the LC, they would end the trade agreement, and then would commence special ops against the DC. They would also bolster their military to prevent a DC attack.
Lastly, we had some minor pirate powers available for hire that could also do targeted raids on the Periphery border, having yoinked that idea from the Purist.
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Thoughts: after extensive play-test, and using our scenario rules that could be created in the game, the 4SW is VERY feasible to re-create using the base rules, up to the point where the story and plot points give extra advantages to the FC alliance. After that, I suspect the War would/could still be won (we're still going to play it out) by the FC Alliance, but it will become bloodier.
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I will post Player thoughts on their powers at end, as they come in today and tomorrow:
LC: With all the resources I had, plus the capture of several outlying Periphery worlds, even with a long Periphery border that I had to patrol, I was so far ahead of everyone else that it was crazy. I built an average of 1 full combat command a round, plus replacements of those lost. That meant that I had built an extra 36 mech regiments from 3025 until 3028. Training them from wet behind the ears to regular was essential; Flawed Doctrine meant that the penalty to hit and damage reduction for units was painful. Large CCs are the way to go for the Lyrans (which as per the rules, they are) so that quantity makes up for lack of quality.
I found an odd thing that was very balancing too. The Fanatical Offence/Defence of DC units eliminated the damage penalty of Flawed Doctrine, which meant that Lyran Combat Commands were better at fighting the Dragon than the FWL. Sure, we took more damage, but the larger Lyran commands had more armour to give up than their DCMS counter-parts. This meant that even with Flawed Doctrine, Lyran units of similar experience could out-fight their DCMS opponents through attrition. Only when the DCMS would head-hunt specific units (sacrificing some armor to do more armor damage to me) would the DCMS come out ahead.
not having this against the FWL meant that the FWL forces were better at out-fighting my troops. This led to me choosing the DC as my target for when war was declared.
My extra money also meant that I would buy up ANY merc units that went on the market. I especially targeted units with Light mechs, so that I could then turn them around to use the bonus 1 provided for raiding with them, as teh GM didn't have too many of my units start as Light to begin with (being Lyrans and all). Life was hard to be a Lyran merc, as they were constantly raiding, but it paid well!
Overall, I would have to say that using the scenario rules as posted and getting extra RP, the LC was the most powerful force in the game.
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DC:
Initially, I went nuts with all my Rp. I definitely misspent, and that was probably my downfalll. I kept building all sorts of specialty units - some for head-hunting, some for Patrolling, some for garrison duties, some for commerce raiding.
The problem with this was I suddenly had a glut of units that were not useful in a general war. When the LC invaded me, and I threw these units into the fray, they died messily. They were great for securing my border initially and doing the raids I wanted, but my supply situation was a mess.
I think that a proper DC player, building more conventional units, would have done better. The RP I had was great.
I was also very hard on my mercs. I knew there were probably going to be penalties for my mercs later in the game (yeah, I meta'd that) so I usedthem up as much as I could. It meant that I had to keep training and creating small commands for Patrols and for commerce raiding though, and these all died on the Lyran border in the first wave of Lyran attacks. Ugh. Such a waste.
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Other players forthcoming
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Hmmmm,... I'm surprised by your LC comments. While our Commonwealth has a steady surplus of RPs the cost of (combat) supply for troops and fortresses often exceeds 1100 - 1200 RP, often more. Mercenaries another 300-400, movement around the combat zone 80 to 150 RP. The LC surplus (1500-1700 on average) simply ensures that there are supplies available the next turn (which must come from the surplus, not from new income). Other than Patrol Commands the LC in our game has not built a single new 'full strength' command (1/2/5/7/1). The need to replace destroyed commands and maintain a guaranteed supply pool have kept our Commonwealth from expanding too much. They have built a number of new factories but as noted elsewhere these take two years to pay for themselves.
The 36 new commands you note, at perhaps 12-14 RP each per month would cost an additional 432-504 RPs for just basic supply. If only 1/3 are in combat each turn during an offensive the RP expenditure explodes:
24 commands at (ie) 13 RP basic supply = 312 RP
12 commands at (ie) 52 RP combat supply = 624 RP
Total additional RP cost for these extra troops would be 936 RP plus RP for the rest of the military (~another 1100 RP)
Throw in 300-400 Espionage/Spec Ops RPs to protect factories, basic protection for transportation, comms systems and research and the LC economy is now probably over taxed (in combat at least). The espionage budget can be higher if you need to sweep for agents, employ domestic security for interior systems and so on. We regularly have factories exploding, transportation lines broken, terrorism attacks, etc. that all chips away at the economy since it is impossible to protect everything all the time.
Just a thought but perhaps by limiting your early game to just raiding you did not tax the economies of the stronger houses enough. In the game we have going it will soon be Jan 3021 and with two major campaigns in progress four of the five houses will not be able to meet their supply needs from their surplus pool before collecting new taxes (and this is with the FS now at IndTech Lvl 4). The Lyrans will be ok but this coming month will likely cost them more than 1300 of the 1600 RPs in their pool.
All this and the borders have hardly moved more than a hex or two in the Galedon District and Isle of Skye over 21 months. :)
Cheers.
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In regards to not having a lot of conflict to begin with, and why the LC had so much income; that was the point of the experiment, after all. To simulate the conditions that led up to the 4SW. If the Concord worked together better, or was allowed to, then it would have been an entirely different war.
Heck, as is, they still fought a war in the Periphery, had a smaller scale border conflict with the DC, attacked the FWL and claimed a buffer of worlds AND were slinging special ops around at the FWL and Cappies (and occasionally at the DC).
What the LC player failed to also mention is that they had industrial tech 4 gained very early in the game, working with the FS. The extra 20% RP they gained, plus extensive trade (they traded with everyone in the game other than the DC) made their economy incredibly robust. The LC also invested in upgrading worlds to minor; they maxed out their worlds that could have this, as the long term investment advantage was worth it after the math was done. They did this also early; so that by the end, they had 20 minor industrial worlds built up.
Another point though; I strongly suspect that without the Concord alliance, the FWL would be able to gut the CC very quickly. Even a limited offensive by the FS in support would be absolutely devastating because the FWL has the income and initial troop placement (most of the FWL militia units and the Defenders of Andurien) to launch some good attacks into Capellan space.
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CC player feedback:
My allies sucked. :P I kept asking them to attack more, to give me more money for research, but they had their own plans. The Capellan Confederation stood alone!
In all seriousness, I was crippled by a serious inability to gain any RP during the game. Due to research costs and time, it took me apparently 6 times as long to get industrial tech 4. I only got it active a month or two before the war.
From the start of the game, saboteurs and terrorists, as well as raids, targeted Capellan industry. Tikonov for instance, basically did not produce its full RP for most of 3026 and 3027. Either terrorists or saboteurs would hit it, even with security heightened. In mid 3025, this was my situation:
FS forces - mercenaries mostly - would launch raids up and down the front, hitting supplies, raiding industrial worlds. Green troops would get their supplies stolen. Commerce raiding was enacted covering every hex within 2 hexes of the border, which meant that I had to pay for constant patrols.
My only real option was to scrimp and save for limited attacks to deal with these raids. Espionage to locate them, and then I would send head-hunting missions to kill the mercs. I found headhunting missions worked really well against merc units, because they don't have the stamina to take the damage. It no doubt wouldn't have worked against a House unit, but I didn't have to fight those.
When I started killing off the mercs, it seemed like the raids started to slow down. So... I guess taht worked? However,t eh damage was already done. Also, some of my indstrial worlds had only elite regiments on them now, so they were far btter defended against raids.
Commerce raiding only affects worlds that don't have a garrisoned Combat Command, which is why I think the CC was split up by battalions to cover so many worlds, so it didn't have THAT high an impact... except it did. Because even the loss of 20 rp was precious to me. Teh FS was clearly usng espionage to find out where my troops were, and was using the info to focus commerce raiding to best effect.
Patrols and aero duels were constrant on the border, and aero losses were always having to be replaced. This was more cost to me. It was clear that the FS somehow didn't have the same economic problems - I tried to sabotage their research but they and the LC gained industrial tech 4 early, so that didn't work.
I never really got to use my special ops either; I just never had the income for it.
By the tie I started to have income, the war started.
This was me in mid 3025 at one point:
Tikonov: terrorized so at half production
St Ives: raided and shut down for rp
Sarna: raided and shut down for rp
Sian: sabotaged and reduced to lower income
Indicass: raided and shut down for rp
Nanking:raided and shut down for rp
Styk: raided and shut down for rp
Ares: raided and shut down for rp
I was starting the turn with 740 rp in the bank and after combat supply (fighting off raids) and then without ANY other expenditure but basic supply of units I was going to go into the next turn with 640. I was already at a deficit. There were MANY turns like this, where I was paralyzed and had no income.
I shudder to think what would have happened if the FWL had invaded at that point. The FS didn't have the money, at least. However the FWL could have thrown an attack at me and the extra cost of combat supply around then would have wiped the Confederation out. I wold have issued stand and die orders to my troops; cuz if they retreated, I wouldn't be able to afford to supply them!
I told my allies this, and tey promised to step up raids. I saw that they did that, but against the LC, not the FS! I asked for special ops, and they threw them at the LC! Meanwhile, the FS slowly built up strength.
"Oh, they're a paper tiger. the FS doesn't have the income to launch attacks beyond these raids. You're good" was the response. Sure, but they slowly were banking up RP, and were stealing supplies from my troops to increase tehir own!
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Gm sidenote: Capellan budget also included counterintelligence costs as well, not just unit supplies.
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…<snip>...CC player feedback:
...By the tie I started to have income, the war started.
This was me in mid 3025 at one point:
Tikonov: terrorized so at half production
St Ives: raided and shut down for rp
Sarna: raided and shut down for rp
Sian: sabotaged and reduced to lower income
Indicass: raided and shut down for rp
Nanking:raided and shut down for rp
Styk: raided and shut down for rp
Ares: raided and shut down for rp…<snip>...
Well,.... first thing I'll say was that followed your narrative over the past months quite closely, thanks for taking the time. It's just my opinion but might your preconceptions of what 'raiding' should be not have undermined the Capellans?
1) For example, your refusal to employ garrison aerospace wings made protecting planets extremely difficult. Tikonov, Sarna, Cappella and St Ives each rated from 150 to 300 PV. Major worlds, 250, Minor 100 and 'other' 50 PV. In the case of Ambergrist above, as an example, if it had its 100 PV of garrison wings, a single command with just two medium wings could have brought it up to 200 PV for the -2 to Insertion DR. If a small patrol was on St Ives this places it within range of a patrol for another -2 DR. Raids suddenly become far less likely until something is done about all those fighters (namely a Naval Battle) as they tend to regenerate slowly.
2) The second issue is not your doing but as we have discussed, the raiding rules have the almost unstoppable Disruption Raid and the 'Quick Resolution Method". Both are slanted heavily in favour of the attacker if no negative mods are available (yup, fighters again). Once you get to the planet (Insertion) and if you bring along only a +1 to the 'mission' DR, the odds are very good that two light tank companies can shut down any planet in reach for a minimum of two months. Now it may just be my lack of reading in Uni-lore but I don't recall any system similar to Tikonov or Hesperus II being completely shut down for two months (on a bad day for the raiders no less) because a company of Scorpions paid a visit. The rule as structured literally means you can give up 12-16 armour points to stop the production of as many as 240RP over those two turns. Do this to Sian, Capella, St Ives, Sarna, and Tikonov and the CC is down 1200+ RP for the cost 80 armour (1 RP), if every attacker dies, and 110 RP for supplying five small commands (merc size).
1200 RP vs 111 RP. Why would you not make the attempt every turn (especially without fighter garrisons)
This is a major miss in the rules especially since the ISaW rules actually make placing factories inside fortresses (minimum Std-2) a wise defensive move. Yet there are no mission modifiers for a "fortified factory". The reason we use BF and SBF so much for raids is that getting at a fortified factory is far more difficult and the damage inflicted considerably less than one might think. It's just my opinion but that entire table needs to be redone. Perhaps a disruption raid might reduce a percentage of the planets output but it should be graded against the size of the planet's potential RP generation. An "Other World" might be brought to a halt relatively easily, a fortified major industrial world that is also a Regional Capital would likely lose only a fraction of its output to a raid.
On the other hand throw three large commands at Tikonov for a two month campaign and the rules have plenty of scope for damaging a factory or two. Infrastructure Damage "Battles" and full "Invasions" all have the means for damaging a factory without conquering the planet. In both cases the attacker must expend far more resources and take far greater risks to knock a planet like Tikonov 'out of action' for as long as two months. ;)
3) This next is about the rules for raiding and range. The rule itself is not specific and leaves one with many questions but the other rules surrounding movement may be a guide here. We had started limiting raids to one hex some month ago after further review of the rules surrounding movement. As noted on page 355, if a command (or, presumably, even part of one) moves more than one interstellar hex from its starting point it is not allowed to use "offensive" orders. This would preclude a raid. and limit them to one 30 light year jump.
Now, I'm not saying that a CC that uses a Raid order (1 pt) must also use Assault Move and/or Attack but the introductory paragraph in Movement Orders on 355 does state "Unless otherwise noted, all movement rules apply." I have raised this question with Welshman so we may get some claritty. If unchanged, the rule is broad enough that a CC could raid planet X, assault move to planet Y, Attack' the planet there and set up a Counter-insurgency mission all with 4 orders point. Seems a bit over-active to me. :)
Thanks again for your posts.
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Yup. On one hand, simplified raiding sped the game up. On the other, it DEFINITELY worked against the Capellans in this game.
We started thinking about an alternate rule for simplified raiding, one that would also encourage some units to have JS built with the combat commands:
Raids can only be undertaken by CCs with their own JS. This would have then limited the types of units and amount of units that could do such a thing, and have encouraged the production of CCs to a limited extent that had them as both yours and my campaigns noticed very quickly that combat lethality meant that producing combat commands with their own JS was just... not economically sound.
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FS player feedback:
"My ally rocked. I mean, sure I got to stomp the Capellans, but I only got to do it because of the Lyrans.
Most of my espionage was actually done by the Lyrans. They had the income to locate forces, and then simply shared the intell with me as I couldn't afford to do it myself. Same on the Draconis front when we did our first few attacks there and I claimed the world of Huan.
I really struggled with the notion of what to do, and whether to attack House Kurita instead in a double attack there, and leave the CC alone. What decided it for me was that I was crippling their economy in raids; something I knew wasn't happening with the DC. If they were that crippled, I figured the war could overwhelm them. So I maintained the raiding pace as much as i could.
Also, I loved my mercs. The BSI were phenomenal... I think I rebuilt them 3 times. When they finally were killed on Arboris in the Capellan counter-attack, they STILL managed to get out with an armour battalion and a fighter wing, but everything else died there.
The Capellan campaign to hit my mercs back worked; I ran out of cheap expendable units mostly to do my raids. However, they had done their job, and I was able to hire a few new units to keep up the occasional raid.
One thing that worried me was that my raiding campaign had very much increased the experience of some Capellan units.
I also used my disruption raids as "cover" for recon raids into areas. I found that recon raids are a very economic way to get intell rather than espionage in areas, due to the fact that a good roll would give me intel on some surrounding hexes too. I didn't have to worry about false info either. So whenever the Lyrans weren't doing espionage for me, I dropped a recon raid in.
My allies got my industry up to tech 4, and the extra money was a saving grace. Then, I managed to upgrade a couple worlds to minor, to give me a bit more money.
After ther early turns, I didn't engage in special ops; my opponents were to heavily invested in counterintelligence. The few I did were targetted at: Capellan industry or alternatively, FWL technology. By keeping the FWL away from having industry, we figured that the other players wouldn't be as good at focusing their rp. I also hit Capellan research on occasion, but only when I could afford it, which was not very often. Again, my Lyran allies did a lot of the heavy lifting work there.
I never built any extra units; mostly, I was focused on supplying what I had and rebuilding what I lost. The war actually could have started a turn earlier, but I got a bad merc retention roll right near the start of the war, and had to spend an entire turn worth of income keeping what mercs I wanted, and letting some go (I got the result where ALL mercs contracts were up). It was brutal.
The FS income made it very hard for me to build up a treasury. So, I turned to supply raids using expendable units (aka mercs) to hit up large, green formations of my enemies. The DCMS mostly blocked me on this; I think I only succeeded once there, against a Galedon regiment.
The Capellans though... oh man, I stole so much stuff from them! Again, though, they got wise to this (and gained their own xp) so it didn't last long. Still, it was worth it.
The funny thing was, these raids usually only broke even for me even if succesful. But, they built my own experience up, wasted Capellan rps on combat supply as well and that prevented any black ops from hitting me fromt he Capellans.
The FWL, CC and DC all would get hit by Lyran saboteurs and my own on occasion. Meanwhile, the DC sent their spec ops against the Lyrans and so did the FWL. The CC never could afford it, so it meant that my economy didn't suffer the same disruption as everyone else. SOMEONE hired pirates to hit my outback, and while I covered it up, they destroyed a Crucis March Militia unit! Had to scramble to get mercs in place to go on patrol for that, and that also screwed up my timetable for war.
Oh. The damn Kuritans kept raiding Marduk and Quentin. I had to post some really good troops at both, and that was frustrating. Also, the Dragoons were a menace along the border, constantly raiding and damaging stuff, stealing supplies mostly. I did have a great moment when the Alpha Regiment of the Dragoons - either Elite or Heroic by that time, had their raid beaten back by the Bell Training Battalion, which was Green at the time. Heh.
That being said, oddly I was never too worried about the Dragon. They would send raids and did launch attacks, but their Fanatical attack and their other trait where they get a penalty of 1 to initiative meant that on defence I had a +2 on initiative against them (1 for Superior Doctrine and then their penalty of 1) and then would be doing a minimum of +20% damage to them. I could do defensive tactics to reduce my own damage if I wanted, or go full offense and badly damage good combat commands with just militia troops. The extra initiative was huge as it meant that my regular troops could usually stand up to veteran troops on the DC side. We proved that with the battles of Kesai.
Naval engagements; they were my bane. I had so many patrols and little aero engagements on both my borders! Repairs are cheap, but were constant in that field. I can only imagine FS aero manufacturers greedy little hands rubbing together at the thought of what was happening in the aero fights and the lucrative contracts they had.
There was even an "incident" with the Taurian Concordat that happened as well. It "may" have been because of some raids I threw into their space, which then caused them to react. Heh. Silly Bulls. Anyways, they retaliated and crushed pretty much every aero wing I had on my border with them, and did a few supply raids. I asked the Lyrans to pay them off with intelligence favours and a promise to not raid again (which I never broke). It was a silly mistake, to see if I could get more $$$ but did not pay off. I also did propaganda to cover up that skirmish too. Didnt want my main foes to know what was going on.
Now. We built our lineup of troops based on canon FS units. Apparently, this was a saving grace; from what I understand, the FS cant afford what they have if they were all the standard rct. It gave me enough RP to be able to do some things, which I nursed into a big enough treasury to sustain a war.
I meta gamed a bit; specifically, I knew that we would be playing only up to the end of the 4SW. So, I set a target treasury for the war, knowing that when it started, I only had to last my treasury until the end of 3029 really.
However, the (short) Comstar Interdiction screwed up my economy. Also, I overspent hiring mercs or retaining them, and so my treasury is a lot lower than i want.
Oh well. Still stomping the Cappies. Superior Doctrine ftw! Any unit that I had equal experience with, I still had the advantage. My green units could stand up to Regulars, and that was huge. I also was finding that anything that could force a morale check was handy in ACS, because the CC was bad at morale checks. This shaped my ACS strategy against them. The DC, I just focused on killing them. The +20% meant that wasnèt too hard. The CC, it was just easier to break them, and then I would let them leave a world. Their morale would then be bad... and apparently they started deserting or mutinying, which was the goal. Formations would just evaporate due to this.
The DC apparently this turn has launched attacks at the Galtor Thumb, so I will be starting to lose worlds there, but the Cappies are just toast. I cant see them regaining what they have lost now.
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FWL Player:
Being the Captain-General is frustrating. My allies depended on me to fund research efforts and share with them, which required me to every 3 turns dump lots of income into that, rather than doing stuff I wanted, like attacking the LC.
My plan was to snip off the Isle of Skye, plus Hesperus II, and gain all those tasty industrial worlds around there. Plus get a common border with the DC.
However, we had a house rule for the provincial forces. It was that only 25% of the provincial forces could be on a world that wasn't a beginning world at any given time, and worse, this would be affected by the roll that determined economy. So, on a given turn, the actual provincial forces available could be anywhere from 10-40%. If over that, they would have to withdraw back to a FWL world.
And that meant that I had to mostly rely on the Free Worlds Militia units, who were; 1. on the capellan border mostly and 2. not half as good as several key provincial units.
Yes, I got a discount on provincial units. I briefly thought about building more so that I could use more, but it just didn't seem worth it.
Instead, I focused on making a couple of these units really, really good. Also by raiding the LC whereever I could. The problem is, the LC ALSO raided, and I had more industrial worlds on the order than they did. Plus, I was getting constant saboteurs and terrorists. Oh SAFE, why you so bad?
Still, I worked on building up my economy. Upgraded a few worlds to minor, established trade treaties. Rebuilt losses from the Lyran invasion - THAT scared me though. They threw a lot of units at me and established their buffers.
What made it worse was that I had inferior intelligence as a trait, and I just COULD NOT get any espionage actions to work. I spent huge amounts of RP on espionage and got no return for it usually.
I really should have started throwing in recon raids - which I did late in the game, once I realized what they could do. I also asked the DC player for espionage, which he obliged once or twice, but the Lyrans had heavily fortified and had lots of units in Skye region, so the opportunity didn't present itself.
Oh, I so badly wanted to attack the Capellans. I figured I could have taken Sian, Betelgeuse and surrounding areas (and... Corey? I think). Then followed up with an attack on Capella itself. It would have been glorious.
I mean, sure, the DC would have been screwed, but I would have been ahead and maybe even gained enough to become a superpower myself.
However the Lyran attack convinced me that the Lyrans had chosen me as their target for war. When they withdrew, I was still scrambling all my forces to prepare, and was finally starting to build a few new combat commands and training them. With these all being new Federal troops, I would have the fist I needed to finally carry a war forward. By the time of November 3028, I had 12 new Marik Militia Combat commands, all green or wet behind the ears, at Training Centres getting up to Regular experience. I had my war group ready for reserves. The invasion begun, and Lyran troops were spread thin based on intel. First, retake all my original worlds (and post provincial garrisons there!) and then start hitting choice Lyran targets.
Overall, I had horrible luck with my RP - Parliament seems to hate me. For whatever reason, I had far more rounds with negative modifiers than positive. Lyran troops were not shy about counter-attacking too. His strategic reserves were just bigger than mine, and he had almost no green troops, having trained any unit that could up, or using them in raids or attacks into the Periphery to build experience.
Still, Lyran troops sucked on the battlefield. Whenever I faced them and had similar numbers or experience, FWL troops prevailed. It was only when he would sling huge numbers or have an elite group leading them that I would lose.
FYI: FWL heavy air wings rock, as per stats from Campaign operations. Also, FWL heavy and assault mech battalions have better TMMs than anyone else's I think.
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Good evening, Epic,
Just checking in on the FWL Espionage. I hope you did not penalize Espionage [or] Counter-Intelligence [edit][/b]and Sabotage Ops by +1 for the FWL. Note the trait only applies to *Spec/Black Ops*.
The inverse also applies to the Houses with the Superior Black Ops trait. Esp and Counter-Esp missions do not get the -1.
Otherwise, your experience is not that different from what is going on in our game. Well over 66% of the Parliamentary DR have resulted in negative modifiers. The +1RP for CCs that pay combat supply has been more balanced but that RP only counters the +1 RP for a few commands. All others CCs still pay +1 for the 'Supply Problems' trait.
We have not been as harsh with the Provincial commands. Pro-Marik provinces like Oriente need only leave one CC from each brigade at home, the others can move and fight but they have a casualty limit of 50-75% before they are recalled for rebuilding. This means the Capt-Gen can't really use them for cannon fodder or he would soon find them headed home. The anti-Marik provinces seldom let more than a few commands far from home. The Sirian, Silver Hawks and Andurien's, for example, only allow one command more than one jump away from home and they never have more than a 50% casualty cap before recall. In all cases recall means being moved back within the borders for rebuilding before another command will be released.
Fighting the Lyrans is still tough, that -10% damage they suffer for Inferior Doctrine is never a guarantee of success because of the larger Lyran commands and (generally) more powerful battalions. That said, Lyran heavy fighters are just frightening, even for the otherwise powerful FWL heavy wings :)
EDIT: whoops, 2nd SW does add +/- 1 to Inferiror or Superior Spec Ops. My fault for posting on the fly. Corrected above
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I think the FWL was also enjoying the penalty to init and engagement that the Lyrans suffer.
As for the bonus/penalty for ops and espionage.
As Second Succession War was published after IO and thus, the traits weren't available at the time, we assigned the Inferior/Superior Foreign Intel and Counterintel traits to folks.
This meant that the FWL also got hit with inferior Counterintel. The CC got Superior Foreign Intel. The FS got superior Counterintel. We also assigned the TC and OA inferior Foreign Intel.