Opinions on the Sun Spider.

[Requiemking]

So, as of this past mechcon, PGI unveiled the Sun Spider. Anther brand new mech for the lore, and I'm curious about people's reactions to it here, as the reactions on the MWO forums are largely the same as when the Roughneck was released last year(a fairly volatile mix of anger and shock with some degree of intrigue). I personally see nothing wrong with it, as it's design is pretty fair in terms of combat power(basically, it seems to be a compromise between the Summoner's agility and the Novacat's podspace. Although, I would definitely not want that Prime config anywhere near me if I were on the enemy team), not to mention the fact that MWO is hardly the first videogame to introduce new mecha to the franchise(I'm looking straight at you MW4) and I doubt it will be the last. But, I would like to know what the TT people over here think.

[Recklessfireball1]

Since I don't play MWO, I can only critique it visually.  It reminds me of another dumb-looking MWO unit that looks like it's legs are mounted backwards (Cataphract, maybe?).  MWO has mostly awesome looking 'Mechs, but this is one of the goofy looking ones (not that the TT version doesn't have it's own goofy looking rides  ;D).

Swivel the legs around at the hips and then it would probably look pretty cool.   :)

[Foxx Ital]

I haven't heard.much other than some reeeing.  Would anyone care to fill me in because im too lazy to look it up?

[Requiemking]

I haven't heard.much other than some reeeing.  Would anyone care to fill me in because im too lazy to look it up?

The Sun Spider(PGI's brand new mech) is, according to it's lore page, is a 70 ton Clan Goliath Scorpion Omnimech. In terms of design, its alright. A 350 XL engine makes it run as fast as the Summoner(though it lacks the Jump Jets), with Endosteel and nine and a half tons of Ferro armor it has fourteen double heatsinks and 31 tons of podspace for gear. The Prime config is terrifying at close range, sporting a UAC10 with 2 tons of ammo, an ERLL, and four Streak SRM6s with 3 tons of ammo. The other configs are decent in their own right, with A config being mostly long range(Quad UAC2s and twin ERLLs), the B config being mixed range(a Gauss rifle, an ERLL, twin ERMLL and SSRM6s, AMS, and a Light active probe), the C config being LRMs(2 LRM20s and 2 LRM 15s), the D being all the Dakka(twin UAC20s and a single HMG) and special config "Manul"(the Hero variant. Twin ERPPCs and twin ERLLs, a single ERSL, AMS, and nine extra double heat sinks). The basic gist of it's lore(which was written by Randal Bills) is that it was an early Omnimech that was buried after the Scorpions got their hands on some better designs, and then was dug up after Operation revival and was presented after it's flaws were corrected.

[marauder648]

Sounds like an interesting design, and a useful one too.  What's it look like?

[jimdigris]

Sounds like an interesting design, and a useful one too.  What's it look like?

In everything except the arms, it looks like the Capellan Gun omnimech.

[Adgar76]

Fun fact, it has the same armor amount of a Summoner. However, we don't know yet how it is distributed.
It seems to be the kind of design that could turn up in a TRO: Golden Century.

The fluff (almost as good as a TRO entry) can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/news/2017/12/1970-sun-spider-lore

[jimdigris]

It was written by Randall Bills.  We may yet see a similar mech for Catalyst.

[Requiemking]

It was written by Randall Bills.  We may yet see a similar mech for Catalyst.

I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up in an update Clan Invasion-era TRO alongside the Roughneck(as that mech's lore places it's creation at roughly the same time, give or take a couple decades),

[Frabby]

Personally, I've grown tired of the design spam and liked BattleTech more when it had fewer 'Mech designs with more character.
Beyond that general grognard gripe, I don't have any specific problems with the Sun Spider, except perhaps that it looks as if it couldn't mass more than 40 tons. It's not ugly or weird, it just doesn't visually convey a 70-ton feeling; YMMV.

MWO canon is obscure. According to a ruling Randall Bills himself made, with Line Developer hat on, all Hero 'Mech fluff for MWO is canon for CGL's "core" BattleTech IP.
There is a Hero 'Mech Sun Spider, ergo the 'Mech is canon - that is, its name, backstory, and individual Hero 'Mech are canon. Its stats... only insofar as established by the fluff. By contrast, the MWO stats aren't canon.

The backstory marks this as a very obscure design - like many of my beloved BattleTechnology designs. The story isn't too bad; but it kinda sorta makes sure this design will always be a fringe design, too rare to make an impact. So ultimately, it's an okay design with little if any relevance. Nice, but unneccessary.

My 2 cents.

[Von Jankmon]

Its gangliness is perhaps one of its flaws that needed correcting.  The design is very solid on paper, and I do like the configurations, particularly Prime and A.

As for the looks, the name earns it forgiveness, the animal it is based on is large and spindly, and very nasty.  Once clan techs had learned how to build it so it took hits properly.

Also the design might help itsd speed, the stride length might make up for a slower gait, a design compromise that might not have pulled off compared to the Summoner.

All in all I like it.

[Warship]

I think it makes a good alternative.  Although, the design of the legs/feet in the illustration does not appear viable. 

[Requiemking]

I think it makes a good alternative.  Although, the design of the legs/feet in the illustration does not appear viable.

Well, when you consider most of the thing's weight seems to be over the back of the foot, it makes sense to extend the rear toes like that. Although, that front toe is a little too short for my comfort.

[JadedFalcon]

Does anyone else think it looks like the Targe? Might be a good use for the mini.

If it makes it to CGL/IWM, maybe we'll get a design that feels more like a 70-ton mech. Can't complain about its inclusion into canon. More Clan homeworld stuff from CGL would be nice.

[Maelwys]

Its alright. The armor is a little low, but its matches the Summoner, so its not the end of the world. The 14 DHS are perhaps a bit much, but they're all in the engine so that's not incredibly bad either, though obviously if you wanted to go for something like twin Gauss Rifles, you're going to be incredibly oversinked.

It might be interested to see how the crits work out.

The fluff is eh. No big deal really. "Scientists conspired to get OmniTech, then couldn't make it work, so buried it while they waited for the Warriors to get it officially."

I do question the need really. Battletech has so many designs out there that cramming in more isn't really needed, but I guess they wanted to make their mark or something.

[Deadborder]

I do question the need really. Battletech has so many designs out there that cramming in more isn't really needed, but I guess they wanted to make their mark or something.

MWO Gameplay logic. Its existence allows PGI to design a 'Mech to suit the gameplay rather then deriving it from an existing design.

[Requiemking]

Its alright. The armor is a little low, but its matches the Summoner, so its not the end of the world. The 14 DHS are perhaps a bit much, but they're all in the engine so that's not incredibly bad either, though obviously if you wanted to go for something like twin Gauss Rifles, you're going to be incredibly oversinked.

It might be interested to see how the crits work out.

The fluff is eh. No big deal really. "Scientists conspired to get OmniTech, then couldn't make it work, so buried it while they waited for the Warriors to get it officially."

I do question the need really. Battletech has so many designs out there that cramming in more isn't really needed, but I guess they wanted to make their mark or something.

Well, according to the mech specs section of it's page in the Store, the Sun Spider has four locked crits in each side torso from Ferro and Endo, and a single locked crit in each limb, the CT, and the head. All in all, things are a bit cramped in the STs due to the six crits lost per ST(two to Ferro, two to Endo, and two the XL engine).

[YingJanshi]

Personally, I've grown tired of the design spam and liked BattleTech more when it had fewer 'Mech designs with more character.
Beyond that general grognard gripe, I don't have any specific problems with the Sun Spider, except perhaps that it looks as if it couldn't mass more than 40 tons. It's not ugly or weird, it just doesn't visually convey a 70-ton feeling; YMMV.

MWO canon is obscure. According to a ruling Randall Bills himself made, with Line Developer hat on, all Hero 'Mech fluff for MWO is canon for CGL's "core" BattleTech IP.
There is a Hero 'Mech Sun Spider, ergo the 'Mech is canon - that is, its name, backstory, and individual Hero 'Mech are canon. Its stats... only insofar as established by the fluff. By contrast, the MWO stats aren't canon.

The backstory marks this as a very obscure design - like many of my beloved BattleTechnology designs. The story isn't too bad; but it kinda sorta makes sure this design will always be a fringe design, too rare to make an impact. So ultimately, it's an okay design with little if any relevance. Nice, but unneccessary.

My 2 cents.

Since Randell doesn't wear the LD hat anymore I guess it depends on if Mr. Evans has other thoughts about that ruling....

As for the looks of the thing...yeah, the legs do look like someone put them on backwards (though I think it wouldn't quite so silly if the back of the foot extended to maybe half what it does.)

[Maingunnery]

Make the front toes bigger and the legs thicker and the designs looks just fine.

I hope that the Escorpión Imperio manages to put it in production, they really need them.

[marauder648]

I like the look of it, only thing i'd do is give it bigger toes, but otherwise the design and fluff is all good in my books

[Natasha Kerensky]

I've used nearly identical configurations to the C and Manul on very similar 70-ton, 5/8, omni homegrowns.  About as efficient as you can get.  Would be great to see them available for official play.

[Caedis Animus]

MWO Gameplay logic. Its existence allows PGI to design a 'Mech to suit the gameplay rather then deriving it from an existing design.

I'd say it is more of a both situation. Making a mark and making a decent design for MWO.

[Kojak]

I hope this 'Mech gets ported over to mainline BT in some fashion; unlike some others, I'm always happy to see new designs added to the roster, and the Goliath Scorpions never got much love in the TROs over the years, so I think throwing them a bone wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

[Maelwys]

I don't know if we will. Considering its designed by PGI, I'd assume that they'd hold the copyrights to it, and thus CGL wouldn't touch it, considering the line's history of trouble with IP.

Then again, maybe there's some sort of deal in the works that they'd be willing to trust.

But where would we see it? A historical wouldn't work. And unless we see the EI's tech and production level increase (heck, see anything from the EI), we wouldn't really see it there.

[Deadborder]

But where would we see it? A historical wouldn't work. And unless we see the EI's tech and production level increase (heck, see anything from the EI), we wouldn't really see it there.

Truth being told, it'd be pretty easy to retroactively slip it into the prior timeline. It's not like we see much of the Goliath Scorpions on-screen anyway, and I don't see anything that would mean its presence would break existing continuity.

Besides which, new 'Mechs get retroactively edited into Battletech canon all the time. Look at the Dragoon, the Royal 'Mechs, Atlas II, TDR-5L Thunderbolt, Hector, Cronus... Yeah. I can't see any reason why the Sun Spider (or Roughneck, for that matter) couldn't join them.

[Maelwys]

Besides which, new 'Mechs get retroactively edited into Battletech canon all the time. Look at the Dragoon, the Royal 'Mechs, Atlas II, TDR-5L Thunderbolt, Hector, Cronus... Yeah. I can't see any reason why the Sun Spider (or Roughneck, for that matter) couldn't join them.

Sure, but they usually go into a product that makes sense for them. Dragoon gets slipped into a Historical dealing with Amaris and the Civil War, the Royals get slipped into the whole "We discovered this new data core," etc.

Where are we going to see the Sun Spider? It seems unlikely that they're going to revisit the Invasion Era, and we already have a 3052 and a 3062 Era report, so it can't be slipped in there (which would've been a good place for it). We're finished with the Wars of Reaving, and the Scorpions are currently in a place that isn't being covered by the storyline (so far). I suppose we could see it as a design that's been returned to service by one of the IS Clans, but that's not giving the Scorpions any love.

[marauder648]

Simple way around the Invasion era issue.  Other Clans simply didn't use it, making it a Scorpion specific Mech.  Either A. Due to the Scorpions defending them like madmen during any trial for them or B "It is the product of drug addled historians, not Warriors, it is beneath our notice" and they simply ignored it and as the only way to get them would be salvage, any that appear in other Clans Tourmans would basically be singular machines.

We know that some Clans have Mechs that are and were specific to them, it could be this case and as the Scorps are a Clan that very very rarely gets any limelight, it can slip through the cracks.

[Maelwys]

Sure, but the whole "What product does this fit in," remains.

[marauder648]

TRO 3050 Homeworld Clans :D

[Maingunnery]

TRO 3050 Homeworld Clans :D

I would buy that.  :)

[SteveRestless]

It's an absolute travesty that this is a thing and the woodsman is classified as "extinct"

[Kojak]

Sure, but the whole "What product does this fit in," remains.

What about TRO: Golden Century?

[Deadborder]

It's an absolute travesty that this is a thing and the woodsman is classified as "extinct"

Here's a level 3 hill. Get over it.

[Maelwys]

What about TRO: Golden Century?

Eh, considering the fluff details it as not going beyond the prototype stage during the Golden Century, and not being available until the 3050's, it seems like an odd choice for a Golden Century product. Especially since the Golden Century version would be flawed compared to the final product 170 years later. Also I would think that most people when looking at a Golden Century TRO would want designs they could actually use, not what's basically a one-off Prototype that wasn't known beyond the Scientist Caste. I could be wrong of course :)

I mean, sure its possible I suppose.

[SteveRestless]

Here's a level 3 hill. Get over it.

I encourage you to ignore me and my posts. I am unlikely to ever stop being vocally dissatisfied with the inconsistency with which TPTB are willing to perform retcons.

[Deadborder]

I encourage you to ignore me and my posts. I am unlikely to ever stop being vocally dissatisfied with the inconsistency with which TPTB are willing to perform retcons.

Here's the thing. The Sun Spider was created by PGI for MechWarrior Online. It was not created by CGL. While yes, the fluff was written by Randall Bills, it's not a part of any canon Battletech product as yet. And, as such, it's still not a part of the "official" Battletech universe.

The creation of the Sun Spider has nothing at all to do with the Woodsman. It was created by different people for different products. The two have no connection to each other at all. Complaining about the Woodsman being extinct in a thread about the Sun Spider is like going to a car mechanic to complain about your sandwich.

Get over it.

[Bosefius]

Please keep on the topic of the Sun Spider.

[Frabby]

Here's the thing. The Sun Spider was created by PGI for MechWarrior Online. It was not created by CGL. While yes, the fluff was written by Randall Bills, it's not a part of any canon Battletech product as yet. And, as such, it's still not a part of the "official" Battletech universe.

I believe this is factually wrong.
There is a Sun Spider Hero 'Mech (Manul), and Hero 'Mech fluff was declared fully canonical for (CGL's) BattleTech (by Randall Bills himself no less). Since there can be no canonical fluff pertaining to a non-canonical 'Mech, it follows that the Sun Spider is indeed canon for mainline CGL BattleTech - even if CGL may not actually have the rights to the design.

[Deadborder]

True that. Either way, it's not canon until it appears in a published CGL Battletech book

[Dragon Cat]

I like it

[marauder648]

I say add it.  We know from the Golden Century book that the Clans developed their own Mechs and designs, so why not add it?  In a small Clan like the Scorpions the Sun Spider could literally be a few Stars strong in its totality, hence it rarely being seen by other Clans, and when they see it they go "Meh, do not care, we have got Summoners and Timberwolves, you keep your little toy" and never bothered trialling for it.  Or if they did recover one, they made a point of scrapping it to slight the Scorpions.

Other Clans could have their own 'in house' designs, sure they are rare as hens teeth and could be the providence of the smaller Clans or those who didn't get involved in REVIVAL, hence them not being seen by the Inner Sphere until the Post Tukkayid or even post Bulldog/Serpent period. 

So if there's ever more of these, I say go for it.  Lore gets re-written and updated and retconned all the time, so there's no point in sitting and going MUH CANONS!!!! or screaming and clawing at your hair whilst vomiting in hysterical rage or any such nonsense. Just shrug, and go "Well, more Mechs, more lore, yum!" 

[Deadborder]

I say add it.  We know from the Golden Century book that the Clans developed their own Mechs and designs, so why not add it?  In a small Clan like the Scorpions the Sun Spider could literally be a few Stars strong in its totality, hence it rarely being seen by other Clans, and when they see it they go "Meh, do not care, we have got Summoners and Timberwolves, you keep your little toy" and never bothered trialling for it.  Or if they did recover one, they made a point of scrapping it to slight the Scorpions.

Other Clans could have their own 'in house' designs, sure they are rare as hens teeth and could be the providence of the smaller Clans or those who didn't get involved in REVIVAL, hence them not being seen by the Inner Sphere until the Post Tukkayid or even post Bulldog/Serpent period. 

So if there's ever more of these, I say go for it.  Lore gets re-written and updated and retconned all the time, so there's no point in sitting and going MUH CANONS!!!! or screaming and clawing at your hair whilst vomiting in hysterical rage or any such nonsense. Just shrug, and go "Well, more Mechs, more lore, yum!"

I cannot agree with this more!

BRB, making Goliath Scorpion character

[marauder648]

Hell anything to flesh out the other Clans that are not Wolf, Falcon, Bear and Jaguar would be good.  As would more information on the eras of the clans and putting Mech's in, having them be unique developments to the Clan, failed prototypes or anythings a good way to do that I say.

A TRO with the Sun Spider in it could feature the Storm Giant, a Raven only ASF that later fell out of grace due to technical issues that saw it get scrapped and replaced, a Horse wheeled tank, a Steel Viper light Mech, the designs of BA that lead to the Elemental (the Rhino for example) and more.  It gives us insight, it gives us lore and fluff and it gives us pretty pictures :)

[Deadborder]

It gives us insight, it gives us lore and fluff and it gives us pretty pictures :)

All the things I love.

Especially obscure and crazy designs.

[Takiro]

Well I liked the name when I first saw it but this was not at what I was expecting or hoping for in an Early OmniMech. The name made me think of a successor to the venerable 35 ton Spider something I could certainly see the Goliath Scorpions doing. Barring that there are many early Omni designs that we haven't seen such as what came before the 35 ton Adder (Puma) or 100 ton Dire Wolf (Diashi) which were both released in 3010. There must have been predecessors for some of the more modern designs in certain weight classes and that is what I was hoping for instead we got a pretty modern design IMO. Several early OmniMechs like the Kingfisher or Nova lack bulky weight saving technology like XL Engines or EndoSteel which could be realistically explained away by designers wanting to keep their options opened for pod mounted equipment.

[Maingunnery]

Well I liked the name when I first saw it but this was not at what I was expecting or hoping for in an Early OmniMech. The name made me think of a successor to the venerable 35 ton Spider something I could certainly see the Goliath Scorpions doing. Barring that there are many early Omni designs that we haven't seen such as what came before the 35 ton Adder (Puma) or 100 ton Dire Wolf (Diashi) which were both released in 3010. There must have been predecessors for some of the more modern designs in certain weight classes and that is what I was hoping for instead we got a pretty modern design IMO. Several early OmniMechs like the Kingfisher or Nova lack bulky weight saving technology like XL Engines or EndoSteel which could be realistically explained away by designers wanting to keep their options opened for pod mounted equipment.

The reason why it failed was because they tried to cram everything in.  ;)

[YingJanshi]

You know...this would have been a perfect thing for BattleCorps. They could have added it into their MilTech News feed thingie and made it canon and not even have to bother about finding a product to slot it into. (And putting stats on there they wouldn't even have to bother with publishing a record sheet either.) Too late now though, oh well.

[Takiro]

I wonder if the Sun Spider will be one of the Mechs for TRO Golden Century?

[Talen5000]

Eh, considering the fluff details it as not going beyond the prototype stage during the Golden Century, and not being available until the 3050's, it seems like an odd choice for a Golden Century product. Especially since the Golden Century version would be flawed compared to the final product 170 years later. Also I would think that most people when looking at a Golden Century TRO would want designs they could actually use, not what's basically a one-off Prototype that wasn't known beyond the Scientist Caste. I could be wrong of course :)

I mean, sure its possible I suppose.

It depends....it could be like TRSW and have a history, but offer variants and upgrades based upon the timeframe when it is "of use" to players. The fluff would probably need to be updated so it makes more sense, and I'd like to see the feet put on the right way but a page in TR:GC is something possible

[Requiemking]

Slight bumping due to an update involving this mech. It released into MWO in March and, unfortunately, it's pretty underwhelming. However, as the rules and mechanics for MWO don't necessarily apply to TT, it might be good to test it in something like Megamek to see how it works out.

[Deadborder]

Slight bumping due to an update involving this mech. It released into MWO in March and, unfortunately, it's pretty underwhelming. However, as the rules and mechanics for MWO don't necessarily apply to TT, it might be good to test it in something like Megamek to see how it works out.

Good thing somebody converted it to MegaMek and even did icons for it...