Author Topic: Can you catch a LAM?  (Read 4656 times)

1000Foot

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Can you catch a LAM?
« on: 28 April 2020, 21:52:38 »
Hi all. I've been running a campaign set in 3002 with my son and he recently ran into a Stinger LAM with his mercenary force which escaped during the battle. His mercs are working in conjunction with another aerospace-only merc company who'd like to get their hands on that LAM. They'd be willing to pay top c-bills if his ground pounders could get their hands on that LAM and sell it to the aerospace mercs. Problem is, I'm not quite sure how he'd go about doing that.

He could potentially set up an ambush, but is there a "safe" way of disabling a mech for capture? I thought of driving its heat up to slow its movement, but he doesn't have any mechs mounting flamers. Maybe he could kick or charge it and possibly knock it down, but I figured if he misses its going to be able to use its superior movement to escape.

Any ideas? I've dabbled with Battletech over the years, and while I really enjoy it I'm by no means an expert. I could use some advice. Thanks!

 

R.Tempest

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2020, 23:44:55 »
 I'd think your only hope is to catch it on the ground and shoot a leg off. IIRC a LAM can not change modes if it is missing a limb, so now you have a crippled, overweight, Stinger to deal with.
 That being said, I don't think there's any reason for a LAM to be in mech mode other than having to fit into a mech bay for transport.

Nav_Alpha

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2020, 00:05:58 »
Maybe go more the RPG route and mix it up with some classic BT.
So, maybe the unit inserts a pilot into the LAM’s flight crew.
Your forces have to then hold off the enemy for XX amount of turns while the operative gets into the cockpit and then you need to protect the LAM and shepherd it to safety, with the enemy pursuing to YY point.

Or maybe get creative with scenarios. You’ve laid mines on the runway. LAM is considered down by not out - pilot wounded or needs time to unhook certain cable and reroute power. This takes ZZZ rounds while your troops move in.
Meanwhile, a blocking or relief force is in bound and they will arrive on the air field in KKK rounds.
You’re job is to get in quick, secure the site (maybe even fighting off some turrets and base defenders), secure the airfield and then capture the LAM by scanning it.
Meanwhile, that blocking force is moving in


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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2020, 00:32:42 »
I thought of driving its heat up to slow its movement, but he doesn't have any mechs mounting flamers.

Inferno SRMs.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inferno

Also anti-mech infantry for crippling a leg or two.

There are also references to things like mech-sized man traps (Death Gulch, I think, in McCarron’s Armored Cavalry) and land/cliff/rockslides (the Great Gash in the Battle of Twycross) in some older scenario packs.  Those might fit the bill, depending on what mode that LAM is in when the trigger is released.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/McCarron%27s_Armored_Cavalry_(scenario_pack
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_of_Twycross
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Battle_for_Twycross
« Last Edit: 29 April 2020, 00:55:19 by Natasha Kerensky »
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dgorsman

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2020, 00:41:52 »
There are rules for grappling in TacOps but they're fairly complex.  You might want to introduce called shots (high, left, right, and most importantly here, low) as a much simpler option, potentially along with bracing and careful aim to offset the to-hit penalty.

The easiest method, I think, has already been mentioned.  Set up a scenario which gives them the potential to capture it on the ground.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2020, 01:23:53 »
I'd think your only hope is to catch it on the ground and shoot a leg off. IIRC a LAM can not change modes if it is missing a limb, so now you have a crippled, overweight, Stinger to deal with.
 That being said, I don't think there's any reason for a LAM to be in mech mode other than having to fit into a mech bay for transport.

in airmech mode LAM's can't hit the broad side of an overlord. Mech mode is for combat, airmech mode is for crosscountry deployment/redeployment between attacks, and fighter mode is for insertion and extraction (it lacks the fuel to do much else)

Major Headcase

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #6 on: 29 April 2020, 01:50:07 »
An Archer with a huge butterfly net made from myomer fiber??

Syzyx

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2020, 02:17:47 »
How to capture a LAM?

In my experience, the best way to capture LAM involves a three pronged, combined arms approach.

Force One: A contingent of infantry. This force infiltrates the base where the LAM is located and waits undetected. Their primary job is to block and eliminate the LAM mechwarrior. Nothing else really matters for this operation as if these guys fail then the LAM will have to be significantly damaged to capture it and a 30 ton Stinger just can't sustain that kind of abuse and be much more than parts thereafter.

Force 2: Something big and scary. This group can be tanks or 'mechs or whatever. Their job is to get the enemies attention and get them moving in a particular direction. They have to pose a significant threat to the enemy, ideally an existential threat, so that it is plausible that this is not just a diversion.

Force 3: Something speedy with hands and cargo. This group comes in from the opposite side of Force 2 and is actually responsible for grabbing the LAM and extracting the infantry. In my experience you'll want something like a Quickdraw and a large flatbed truck or heavy lift VTOL.

The operation, theoretically, flows something like this:

Force One gets in position and settle in for a stretch of boredom while the heavier forces get in position around the enemy base. Once Forces 2 and 3 are in position Force 2 attacks which is the signal for Force One to move toward the LAM to intercept the warrior and keep it out of the fight. Force 3 waits three or four rounds before entering the field to make sure the enemy is committed against Force 2. If they decide to turn around and intercept Force 3 then they are giving their backs to Force 2 which is great. Force 3 makes straight for the LAM, smashes into the hangar if there is one, and tosses the LAM onto the transport. No, there is no careful loading here. Just grab the thing and heave. That's why something like a Quickdraw is great. It'll be stuck in place for a turn or two doing this but it has the mass to manhandle the Stinger and the armor to handle the small amount of fire potentially coming its way for that duration. Yes, the LAM and the transport will be taking damage from this but that is survivable and ultimately negligible. Repairs can be done back at the friendly base.

DO NOT use the same transport for the LAM and extracting the infantry. The Stinger will be unsecured during a speedy withdrawal. 30 tons of sliding 'mech tends to turn your infantry into impromptu liquid cargo.

This plan does involve playing fast and loose with some rules but has met with few arguments the number of times I've run and played this scenario over the years.
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Two Guns Blazing

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #8 on: 29 April 2020, 04:39:22 »
Your son should plan a two phase operation.

Phase 1 - A hired team of operators carry out a raid on the compound where the LAM is kept with two objectives...main objective is to disable the LAM and the secondary objective is to kill the LAM's pilot, and

Phase 2 - Your son's Mercs move in and take the rest of the base down and end up with the LAM and if they are careful in their take down of the compound, some LAM specific spare parts.

massey

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #9 on: 29 April 2020, 07:30:21 »
Remember the movie Firefox?  That was a great movie.

You need to hire Clint Eastwood to sneak in and steal the LAM.

Kovax

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2020, 08:05:41 »
If you can get something close enough to kick a leg, there's not a lot of armor protecting it, and it's easy enough to keep it on the ground until the pilot surrenders, or your infantry shows up to drag him out of the cockpit.  A one-legged Stinger LAM is probably repairable without too much parts-hunting, and still valuable.  If you have to shoot it repeatedly, you run the risk of coring it, and reducing it to spare parts.

Since nothing ever goes entirely according to plan, I'd probably opt for a Plan A to infiltrate a sniper into effective range of the enemy compound, to pick off the LAM pilot on his way to the machine.  Plan B would be to have an extremely fast 'Mech race directly toward the LAM, and try to get to it before the pilot arrives, or at the very least, before he can get it airborne.  Depending on the success/failure of the sniper, the attacking 'Mech can either target the pilot or kick the still-inactive LAM over, doing leg damage and delaying its takeoff until it stands up again, during which time you're kicking it again.  The problem is getting your sniper in place without detection, and getting a 'Mech close enough to make the sudden dash before the defenders can mobilize.  That means using terrain, weather, and possibly active sensor jamming to get close enough.  Your main force will arrive somewhat later, so that initial attacker needs to withstand whatever the defenders can throw at it until the LAM is down or the rest of the attack force arrives.  If your group has access to a Jenner or Ostscout (7/11 or 8/12 movement and enough mass to do decent kick damage), that would help, although a standard Locust could probably pull it off almost as well.

Colt Ward

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2020, 09:32:50 »
Remember the movie Firefox?  That was a great movie.

You need to hire Clint Eastwood to sneak in and steal the LAM.

Go with this approach.  In fact, hand the kid a dossier about your infiltrator using pics of Eastwood from the movie.
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grimlock1

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #12 on: 29 April 2020, 11:22:45 »
Grappling rules? TO page 90.

Target must be grappled for X consecutive turns to force a surrender.
Or the target must grappled, and X attackers must move to adjacent hexes.  The abstraction there is a Grasshopper bearhugs the LAM, a Kintaro takes a knee and grabs the legs, and a Centurion taps its autocannon on the side of the LAM's head.

RAW says only mechs or protomechs can grapple or be grappled, so strictly speaking, this wouldn't work against an Airmech. So that's a bit of a problem.
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1000Foot

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #13 on: 29 April 2020, 13:31:55 »
Thanks guys, these are great ideas. Haven't watched Firefox in 30 years so I'll need a rewatch :)


RAW says only mechs or protomechs can grapple or be grappled, so strictly speaking, this wouldn't work against an Airmech. So that's a bit of a problem.

Not a problem at all! I am playing fast and loose with the Battletech rules, adding house rules and handwaving stuff so changing the grapple rules will be no problem.

garhkal

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #14 on: 29 April 2020, 14:29:07 »
Maybe a 100 tonner with TSM active, could try to grab its arm/leg as it flies past (ala optimus in transformers, when he tried to grab megatron)...

That's what i thought of initially, when i saw the thread title.
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #15 on: 29 April 2020, 14:39:13 »
Could just try to hire the LAM Pilot away from the unit they're with. But have a crew ready to steal it case he declines

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #16 on: 29 April 2020, 16:01:30 »
The pilot has to get out eventually.  Shoot him as he gets out, burn down his barracks while he's asleep, drop artillery on his DFAC while he's eating, etc etc.
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dgorsman

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #17 on: 29 April 2020, 16:36:43 »
Combat drop on their firebase, with one of the aerospace unit's pilots in a jump seat.  Try to keep everything at bay while the LAM security system is bypassed, and have their pilot fly it out under escort from the other fighters.  They're the ones who want it bad, after all.  Just get paid most of the money up front.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #18 on: 29 April 2020, 16:44:57 »
I second that plan.  Let the people who actually want the stupid thing handle the risky part.
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elf25s

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #19 on: 29 April 2020, 17:07:03 »
ok you want to be sneaky or violent? and what is the scenario?
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

Wolf72

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #20 on: 29 April 2020, 17:41:31 »
offer him a chance to surrender after his forces are really beat up.

If he has no where to go, no dropship, no alternate base, no allies ... he may decide to give up and join up with a new crew.  Merc's gotta live, right?
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Col Toda

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #21 on: 05 May 2020, 01:23:09 »
In 3002 a LAM is a white Elephant  . Spare parts are machined and cost 5X standard . Pilot  has to be cross trained  in both mechs and aerospace  . Great idea to sell it . If the opposition force has been suffering  owning it for a while  they should be willing to sell it to the sucker's who want to buy it . 60 -120 million  if a fair price  .  It is an irreplaceable  loss leader .  In 3002 a LAM in the field  is like driving a tank with the collected works of Da Vinci hung on the outside of it . Kinda irresponsible to field it at all . Best use as a donation to a museum or sent to a research center to reverse engineer .

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2020, 02:46:51 »
Yeah, but if someone wants one badly enough that they're going to pay you extra to capture one for them, why not do so?
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2020, 02:55:57 »
Except even in 3025 LAMs were seen as highly valuable unrivaled scouts and raiders. They were valuable enough to launch Planetary Invasions just to get spare parts. They would also spend a year rebuilding LAMs rather than parting the wreckage out.

60-120 million is exceedingly high considering the cost of a brand new Stinger LAM STG-A5 is only 3,280,900 credits.

Having to fabricate parts is where it gets expensive. Fabrication  costs 10 times normal cost but once you've fabricated the part purchasing them is half price. So that first LAM might cost 32,809,000 credits to fabricate the entire thing but the next one and all the LAMs after that would only cost 1,640,450.  So there's no way anyone is going to pay 60-120 million credits for one. It'd be cheaper to steal it.



Kovax

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2020, 08:42:12 »
Fabrication  costs 10 times normal cost but once you've fabricated the part purchasing them is half price. So that first LAM might cost 32,809,000 credits to fabricate the entire thing but the next one and all the LAMs after that would only cost 1,640,450.
Are you sure that doesn't mean "half price" compared to the initial hand-fabricated unit?  That would be "only" 16,404,500 C-Bills for each subsequent unit.  Building at a dedicated factory has to be far cheaper than manually fabricating each part without all the exotic and expensive machinery designed to produce that specific piece of equipment.

I would expect at least 10M, if not 12-15M, for a reasonably intact Stinger LAM.  60-120M would be absurd, since you could afford to hand-build them and still sell at a large mark-up.  Somebody would already be doing that, at that price.  At 10x its initial production cost, a LAM is basically too expensive to purchase or maintain, leading to them falling out of use over time.  At its base cost, it's something that the Great Houses were falling all over each other, kicking and biting, to get.  A realistic "value" would therefore need to be somewhere in the middle.

RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #25 on: 05 May 2020, 13:26:53 »


Are you sure that doesn't mean "half price" compared to the initial hand-fabricated unit?  That would be "only" 16,404,500 C-Bills for each subsequent unit.  Building at a dedicated factory has to be far cheaper than manually fabricating each part without all the exotic and expensive machinery designed to produce that specific piece of equipment.

I'm sure.
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The purchase price of a fabricated part is half that of a new
component.
SOpg179 and after spending at 10x the cost to fabricate each part, or more depending on how successful the techs were, you pretty much do have a factory. That's why the cost for buying fabricated is so much less. You're paying the production cost not the retail price.



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I would expect at least 10M, if not 12-15M, for a reasonably intact Stinger LAM.  60-120M would be absurd, since you could afford to hand-build them and still sell at a large mark-up.  Somebody would already be doing that, at that price.  At 10x its initial production cost, a LAM is basically too expensive to purchase or maintain, leading to them falling out of use over time.  At its base cost, it's something that the Great Houses were falling all over each other, kicking and biting, to get.  A realistic "value" would therefore need to be somewhere in the middle.

10 mil for a used Stinger LAM seems kind of high to me but if a buyer is desperate enough I can see a seller getting it. I don't think it's that likely though. Probably the price would start at 10 and then get negotiated down.

And I would agree that the 10x the price is expensive but once you can make the parts they're half price. And the Houses have been doing that since the 1st Succession War. I can see not making new factories during the 2nd and 3rd Wars. They'd just get nuked or sabotaged. After though, especially with all the factories popping up during and after the Clan Invasion there should have been new LAM factories built.

Just looking at the prices of mechs and LAMs should never had just disappeared. You're standard tech Fireball ALM-7D costs 3,022,240 credits. Nearly as much as the Stinger LAM. The 40MP experimental Fireball ALM-XF costs 16,909,240 credits. That's more than 5x the cost of a Stinger LAM and it was made to order by an individual. If one person can have a custom mech built like that then then new factories for LAMs should be easy.


Col Toda

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #26 on: 06 May 2020, 10:26:20 »
Factory production in 3002 is a black box tech situation in which the factory  can only build and assemble  what it is designed to build . It was not until the Helm data core was recovered that new templates or new purpose built black box tech could be applied again . So it would be 10x machined parts until 3039 minimum 3049 realistically.  So again  loss leader . Before even risk using it at all fabricating  spare parts means taking the LAM appart and bench test it vs original part .You have to get your hands on the LAM in the first place . That is Before machining  parts . The LAM therefore did not get reintroduced  because  3049 XL engines and double heat sinks made any future purpose built unit 50 -60 percent  better in either role .

RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #27 on: 06 May 2020, 18:27:28 »
Factory production in 3002 is a black box tech situation in which the factory  can only build and assemble  what it is designed to build . It was not until the Helm data core was recovered that new templates or new purpose built black box tech could be applied again . So it would be 10x machined parts until 3039 minimum 3049 realistically.  So again  loss leader . Before even risk using it at all fabricating  spare parts means taking the LAM appart and bench test it vs original part .You have to get your hands on the LAM in the first place . That is Before machining  parts . The LAM therefore did not get reintroduced  because  3049 XL engines and double heat sinks made any future purpose built unit 50 -60 percent  better in either role .

Depends on the factory. An automated factory like the one that made Valkyries was black box. Other factories were the mechs were built by hand weren't. Also mechs like the Merlin and Hatchetman would disagree that new mechs couldn't be built without the Helm Memory Core as they were introduced before the core was found.

Also the 10x cost is only for the first part since you have to make molds and such. After that the cost of parts is half that of a new one. And by 3039 the IS has been keeping LAMs in operation with spares and fabricated parts for around 250 years. So the Houses and wealthy individuals and companies could afford to keep their LAMs working.

As for needing to take apart a LAM, that would have been done, a long time ago. Unless of course you don't have the right connections then it'd take time and having to match parts and reverse them and such which is why it'd cost 10x as much. For those with the right connections though you're buying fabricated parts, not fabricating them.

Really, by the time of the War of 3039 LAMs should have been upgraded with prototype tech and by the time of the Clan Invasion they should have had factories producing LAMs with SLDF Tech. DHS would have made LAMs even better. XL Engines wouldn't help LAMs any but they also have a high cost. A 180 XL Engine cost nearly half as much as a Stinger LAM. XXL Engines cost even more. That 40 MP Fireball can outrun a Stinger LAM in AirMech mode but you can buy 5 Stinger LAMs for the price of one 40 MP Fireball. Really by the time of the Jihad the question should be does one purchase, lower tech lower cost LAMs, or higher tech higher cost Mechs or fighters?

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #28 on: 06 May 2020, 19:54:24 »
Except that as has already been stated, LAMs had numerous other problems due to their dual nature such that made them unsuited for mass deployment.  They had a very niche role that was really not one that offered an advantage that was sufficient to offset their cost once factories were churning out standard Battlemechs in mass quantities again.
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R.Tempest

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #29 on: 06 May 2020, 21:40:32 »
 :)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #30 on: 06 May 2020, 22:27:03 »
Actually, TacOps has rules for grappling.
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #31 on: 06 May 2020, 22:56:36 »
Except that as has already been stated, LAMs had numerous other problems due to their dual nature such that made them unsuited for mass deployment.  They had a very niche role that was really not one that offered an advantage that was sufficient to offset their cost once factories were churning out standard Battlemechs in mass quantities again.

Their not being suited for mass deployment  and having a very niche role is false. Thousands of LAMs were produced. Their advantages only increased once tech started being lost. Those abilities remained after factories started producing new advanced tech Mechs again as those technologies existed when LAMs were originally introduced. Even advanced Stealth Systems existed before LAMs were introduced.

It's now that Stealth Armor, Super Chargers, and XXL Engines are being used on standard units, not just specialty ones that make it harder for LAMs to compete. LAMs still have advantages mostly flight and low cost but the expensive options available to standard Mechs do mean that LAMs are no longer reign as the best recon units and raiders. Ultimately it depends on how much one wants to spend. For a lance of 40 MP Fireballs you can have 2 companies of Stinger LAMs.



:)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.

 ;D I had an image of an Atlas running with it's arms out to catch a falling LAM.

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #32 on: 07 May 2020, 00:02:16 »
Their not being suited for mass deployment  and having a very niche role is false. Thousands of LAMs were produced.
]

By the Star League, which also produced thousands of Banshees and thousands of Chargers.  The Star League didn't care whether a particular design was flawed, so long as they could flex their economic muscles.  If they'd developed the HVAC, they'd probably have produced thousands of self-disposing Po (HVAC) tanks, as well.

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Their advantages only increased once tech started being lost. Those abilities remained after factories started producing new advanced tech Mechs again as those technologies existed when LAMs were originally introduced. Even advanced Stealth Systems existed before LAMs were introduced.

It's now that Stealth Armor, Super Chargers, and XXL Engines are being used on standard units, not just specialty ones that make it harder for LAMs to compete. LAMs still have advantages mostly flight and low cost but the expensive options available to standard Mechs do mean that LAMs are no longer reign as the best recon units and raiders. Ultimately it depends on how much one wants to spend. For a lance of 40 MP Fireballs you can have 2 companies of Stinger LAMs.

As has been pointed out numerous times, the C-Bill cost of equipment is a random, arbitrary number that never changes, in total defiance of how real-world economics work.  The cost of an XXL engine hasn't changed from its introduction in Max Tech, back when engineers at the NAIS were assembling them by hand.  By the time they reach mass production they're obviously not that expensive.

Beyond that, there are additional costs to keep all that specialized, finicky conversion gear running that the hypothetical 40-hex running Fireball that nobody's actually building doesn't have.  And there's the issue with the meat that rides the metal: the Fireball can be reasonably piloted by anyone who's completed basic mechwarrior training.  Maybe not to the fullest extent of its abilities but it's canon that someone who knows how to pilot one Battlemech can effectively pilot any Battlemech.  LAMs, on the other hand, require a lot more specialized training.  Training that's both expensive and time consuming.  You're unlikely to bother giving everyone in your regiment that training, which means that you're always going to have a limited stable of pilots to choose from.

And let's remember that the Word of Blake eventually built their own LAMs that they crammed all the Clantech in that they could, and even then the things failed to be the wunderwaffe that they were hoping for.
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RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #33 on: 07 May 2020, 01:25:17 »
]

By the Star League, which also produced thousands of Banshees and thousands of Chargers.  The Star League didn't care whether a particular design was flawed, so long as they could flex their economic muscles.  If they'd developed the HVAC, they'd probably have produced thousands of self-disposing Po (HVAC) tanks, as well.

The Banshee actually had several advantages over the Mackie when it was introduced. The upgraded version while produced in the thousands was also produced for a limited time. LAM production only ended with the destruction of the last factory. As for the Charger, it's a specialty design. It's intended to be the way it is and it did its job as intended. As for HVACs, I could see them producing them as Field Guns but no on tanks that blow themselves up. The TA does cancel things that don't work right, like the Thorizer.


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As has been pointed out numerous times, the C-Bill cost of equipment is a random, arbitrary number that never changes, in total defiance of how real-world economics work.  The cost of an XXL engine hasn't changed from its introduction in Max Tech, back when engineers at the NAIS were assembling them by hand.  By the time they reach mass production they're obviously not that expensive.

While FASAnomics is an issue, some things will always be more expensive than others. The listed prices are also the "Manufacture's Suggested Retail Price." There are rules that would increase or lower those prices as well as cost modifiers for location/faction and era.


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Beyond that, there are additional costs to keep all that specialized, finicky conversion gear running that the hypothetical 40-hex running Fireball that nobody's actually building doesn't have. 

Actually, it was built for a private individual and if an individual can afford one of them a House can afford LAMs.


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And there's the issue with the meat that rides the metal: the Fireball can be reasonably piloted by anyone who's completed basic mechwarrior training.  Maybe not to the fullest extent of its abilities but it's canon that someone who knows how to pilot one Battlemech can effectively pilot any Battlemech.  LAMs, on the other hand, require a lot more specialized training.  Training that's both expensive and time consuming.  You're unlikely to bother giving everyone in your regiment that training, which means that you're always going to have a limited stable of pilots to choose from.

Very true. Training for a LAM does take longer and is more expensive. And not everyone in a regiment would be qualified to operate a LAM. That doesn't mean that LAMs still aren't less expensive than the currant super high tech Mechs of today. Or even of the Star League Era. A Spector SPR-4F with all it's stealth equipment costs 8,756,730. That's a bit over 2.5 times the cost of a Stinger LAM.


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And let's remember that the Word of Blake eventually built their own LAMs that they crammed all the Clantech in that they could, and even then the things failed to be the wunderwaffe that they were hoping for.


I never said that they were a wunderwaffe. I don't think they should be either. What I do think is that they're amazing scouts, raiders, and strikers. I also think they're still viable units and should still be available do to their lower costs than their high tech alternatives. Granted depending on the mission they may no longer be the first choice but they're still an option.

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #34 on: 07 May 2020, 05:54:36 »
:)) I have to admit when I first saw this threads title I had an image of an Atlas reaching up with an arm and holding a LAM in place. I realize this can't actually be done but it would look cool.

Now, that flashed me back a few decades to one of the early Transformers comics (I want to say issue two, back when it was just supposed to be a four issue limited series), with Optimus reaching up and catching Starscream’s leg mid-transformation outside the Witwicky autoshop.

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #35 on: 07 May 2020, 06:11:04 »
Thanks for reminding me that I'm old... Yeah, I had that series...
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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #36 on: 07 May 2020, 06:23:22 »
that is an image from a long, long time ago ... do I still have those? what condition are they in?
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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #37 on: 07 May 2020, 11:00:39 »
Actually, it was built for a private individual and if an individual can afford one of them a House can afford LAMs.

Nobody said that the Houses couldn't afford LAMs.  The issue is that their extra costs and weaknesses result in them not being worth the price to the people in charge of procurement.
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jimdigris

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #38 on: 07 May 2020, 11:18:31 »
An Archer with a huge butterfly net made from myomer fiber??
You beat me to it! >:(

 ;)

jimdigris

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #39 on: 07 May 2020, 11:18:57 »
What about hitting it with a mech-taser?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #40 on: 07 May 2020, 13:32:01 »
Mech tasers might be a tad hard to come by in 3002.
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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #41 on: 07 May 2020, 15:22:02 »
I should've read that first post more carefully. :facepalm:

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #42 on: 07 May 2020, 16:05:00 »
Nobody said that the Houses couldn't afford LAMs.  The issue is that their extra costs and weaknesses result in them not being worth the price to the people in charge of procurement.

Except they've been doing just that since they were created. They've also been launching invasions for spare parts and Fabricating parts for 250+ years by 3039. And when you look at the costs LAMs are as expensive to far less expensive than standard mechs with advanced tech. The people in charge of procurement usually prefer the least expensive option and for all they can do, LAMs are the least expensive option.


I should've read that first post more carefully. :facepalm:

Someone could always stumble over a Centurion Weapon System and use that. I would think they'd be effective on just a vast majority of LAMs since they'd be over 150 years old.

massey

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #43 on: 07 May 2020, 17:18:24 »
As far as LAM costs, you've got to keep in mind that a real world decision was made several years ago to retcon LAMs.

Post-retcon, LAMs are big expensive boondoggles that waste money and lack any real role on the battlefield.  Only the Star League could really use them because they had infinite money.

Pre-retcon, LAMs were awesome and worth every penny.  They were still expensive and hard to maintain, but they were worth the trouble.  Even mercenary companies would get them if they had the chance.

We've got people in this thread arguing on each side of the divide.  Those opinions can't be reconciled.

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #44 on: 07 May 2020, 19:06:26 »
As far as LAM costs, you've got to keep in mind that a real world decision was made several years ago to retcon LAMs.

Post-retcon, LAMs are big expensive boondoggles that waste money and lack any real role on the battlefield.  Only the Star League could really use them because they had infinite money.

Pre-retcon, LAMs were awesome and worth every penny.  They were still expensive and hard to maintain, but they were worth the trouble.  Even mercenary companies would get them if they had the chance.

We've got people in this thread arguing on each side of the divide.  Those opinions can't be reconciled.


The problem is the retcon. It makes no sense and even conflicts with itself.

Pre-retcon private estates could maintain a LAM in perfect working order.  LAMs were also maintained for 250+ years with spare and fabricated parts.

Post-retcon no one but the SLDF could afford them yet not only can private individuals can build a mech that costs more than five times the cost of a single LAM but the above remains true.

Post Retcon only the SLDF could afford LAMs but the SLDF never actually built any. Every LAM was created by private companies. Most companies built LAMs in hopes of getting a SLDF manufacturing contract but not all. Some companies built LAMs purely as a proof of concept. You don't do that if LAMs are too expensive for anyone but the SLDF to build.

And if only the SLDF could afford LAMs, how'd the WoB, not only produce or obtain the three mass produced SL era LAMs but produce three more new types of their own? If the post retcon is true then that should have been impossible.

And then of course there's QuadVees. Same concept and a single Clan has built 5 different kinds, with two different motive systems, some of which are OMNIs. That shouldn't happen either as Quadvees have a similar cost as LAMs.

I know there were real life issues that caused LAMs to disappear but the retcon shouldn't be. There's better ways that LAMs could have disappeared than with a retcon that  doesn't work.

I take the "Only the Star League could have done it." as in universe propaganda by people who hate LAMs for the WoB connection and because they can make more money selling far more expensive units. 

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #45 on: 07 May 2020, 19:38:05 »
 :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #46 on: 07 May 2020, 21:29:32 »
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

How do you think I feel?

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #47 on: 07 May 2020, 22:18:08 »
Yeah I understand, but we don't need the same argument every time a thread opens up.  I think we just acknowledge it and move on. 

For the record, the topic of the thread seems to presume LAMs = good, so I really think that should be the default assumption for this conversation.

RifleMech

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #48 on: 08 May 2020, 00:22:50 »
Yeah I understand, but we don't need the same argument every time a thread opens up.  I think we just acknowledge it and move on. 

For the record, the topic of the thread seems to presume LAMs = good, so I really think that should be the default assumption for this conversation.

Talking about costs was initially a reply to purchasing a Stinger LAM for 60-120 million. I think that's exceedingly high since you could fabricate one for just over half that price.

To get back to catching a LAM, if the mech is in the right place at the right time, I think it's possible. I think a Superheavy or an Assault with TSM has the best chance of doing it.

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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #49 on: 08 May 2020, 07:53:43 »
Talking about costs was initially a reply to purchasing a Stinger LAM for 60-120 million. I think that's exceedingly high since you could fabricate one for just over half that price.

To get back to catching a LAM, if the mech is in the right place at the right time, I think it's possible. I think a Superheavy or an Assault with TSM has the best chance of doing it.

I can't see an Airmech in flight being grabbed or "caught" sut taking significant damage.  You could grab the arms, legs, or fusalage/body, but inertial will send both units down in a tumble.  The mech components will weather that well enough, but I worry about the wings.  Although I could be wrong.  IO 112 and 114 don't seem to call out wing damage from Airmech Ram attacks or crashes. 

I could have sworn that Airmechs suffered a PSR penalty for physicals, similar to the gunnery penalty they take. If that were true, then pushes, trips and kicks would be particularly effective against an airmech that is on the ground but I guess not.
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Re: Can you catch a LAM?
« Reply #50 on: 08 May 2020, 17:58:56 »
I can't see an Airmech in flight being grabbed or "caught" sut taking significant damage.  You could grab the arms, legs, or fusalage/body, but inertial will send both units down in a tumble.  The mech components will weather that well enough, but I worry about the wings.  Although I could be wrong.  IO 112 and 114 don't seem to call out wing damage from Airmech Ram attacks or crashes. 

I could have sworn that Airmechs suffered a PSR penalty for physicals, similar to the gunnery penalty they take. If that were true, then pushes, trips and kicks would be particularly effective against an airmech that is on the ground but I guess not.

It probably isn't likely but there could be circumstances that might make it more possible.

There are control rolls for physicals. They're on pages 112 and 114.

 

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