More critical hits!

[Adrian Gideon]

Alpha Strike players: Thoughts?

1) if you roll a natural 12 on your to-hit roll, you roll once on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).

2) Any hit of damage from one source of 3 or more grants a roll on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).

3) Any hit from one source of 7 or more grants  a critical hit check (cumulative with the above for 2 checks)

4) 12 damage, another crit check. Etc. as above.

5) Critical hit table, swap 4 and 5, and 9 and 10.

[RoundTop]

Alpha Strike players: Thoughts?

1) if you roll a natural 12 on your to-hit roll, you roll once on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).

2) Any hit of damage from one source of 3 or more grants a roll on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).

3) Any hit from one source of 7 or more grants  a critical hit check (cumulative with the above for 2 checks)

4) 12 damage, another crit check. Etc. as above.

5) Critical hit table, swap 4 and 5, and 9 and 10.

I'd say no on #2, as that means that most Heavy and Assault mechs (not to mention light clan mechs) will get crit rolls. #3 is a maybe for me, as typically you need IS Assault or heavy+ clan to make that happen (and most of the time, 7 damage will go internal anyways).

I'm fine with a #1. #4, how many designs can deal 12 damage in a single hit? (and what mechs could take that without going internal anyways)

[NeonKnight]

No to number 1.

I have always felt the Alpha Strike rules needs to be as similar in basic mechanics to the TOTAL WARFARE rules. To allow a natural 12 to not only hit (if a modified to hit of 12 or worse 13+) but hit and allow for a critucal is too far removed.

The other ideas I  am more in favor of

[Azakael]

I'd be okay with a natural 12 being a critical check, only if the target number was less than a 12.
Otherwise, why not a margin of success? If the margin of success is say... somewhere between 3 or 5, then you check for critical?

[Scotty]

I think I'd be okay with something along the lines of a ground threshold that was half of the total armor of the unit.  So a single hit of greater than X/2 where X is maximum armor would generate a single critical hit even if the structure was not breached.

[Weirdo]

Note: 1 is exactly how Aeros do things at all scales in TW/SO. :)

I like 1 and 3. 2 is a bit much, and 4...if something takes 12 damage without anything going in, it deserves to do so unscathed.

5...making 'no crit'results less likely, huh? I'd be okay with that, but only by itself. Combining it with any of the above seems like too much for me.

I would advise a note saying this only applies to non-aeros. Aeros already have thresholding.

Does Alpha Strike really need more crits?

[nckestrel]

Crits currently are a fairly large section of rules. (A fairly noticeable chunk of the unit card as well.) But they often only happen right before (often a turn or less) the unit is destroyed anyway.
But that is a big part of the question, what is your opinion of the worth of the crit rules.

[Scotty]

Yes, I think it does.  That's one of the few complaints against AS I can sympathize with, where sometimes it feels like a unit doesn't degrade until it's destroyed.

I am not in favor of 1), and I'm not in favor of a flat-damage threshold.  I'd be largely okay with "Threshold = Size".

I am in favor of 5) with an additional change: reduce Fire Control Hit to +1 and reduce MP Hit to -2"/-half/immobile.  Crits can absolutely be more numerous if they're less outright crippling.

[Weirdo]

I'm not a fan of size or armor-based thresholds. Crits on 12 work for me, that's the equivalent of hitting your target and rolling a TAC.

The fewer changes, the better. Alpha Strike is already 99.9% perfect, as far as I'm concerned. Gimme a way to use WarShips on an actual tabletop or hex map as an option instead of the radar map, and you've hit 100.

[Scotty]

I'm not a fan of size or armor-based thresholds. Crits on 12 work for me, that's the equivalent of hitting your target and rolling a TAC.

The fewer changes, the better. Alpha Strike is already 99.9% perfect, as far as I'm concerned. Gimme a way to use WarShips on an actual tabletop or hex map as an option instead of the radar map, and you've hit 100.

I'm a fan of at least some kind of threshold because it makes ARM and CR more valuable (whereas right now they're really underwhelming), and because I've lost 'Mechs to ammo explosions that have taken exactly one front torso's armor value worth of damage +1.  Or an arm/leg to an AC/20 amputation while the rest of the 'Mech is nigh pristine.

It also makes the Mad Cat Mk IV's ARM plus a whopping three structure more likely to actually matter, which I am again in favor of.

[jshdncn]

I fully support increasing the number of crits, I miss those moments where a lucky early strike causes catastrophic damage. Even a single point of damage on a pristine assault has the chance to bring it down in TW, I want that in Alpha Strike. I do agree that some of the effects will need to be adjusted, of course that’s a good thing too; the half movement crit is brutal.

[NeonKnight]

Alpha Strike players: Thoughts?

1) if you roll a natural 12 on your to-hit roll, you roll once on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).

Note: 1 is exactly how Aeros do things at all scales in TW/SO. :)

I like 1 and 3. 2 is a bit much, and 4...if something takes 12 damage without anything going in, it deserves to do so unscathed.

Again, the issue I have with this is it goes beyond merely getting criticals. Does this mean a 12 automatically hits? I actually searched the Alpha Strike Rules, and I could not find anything on on rolling Natural 12's or Natural 2s like Total Warfare (p. 106 Modified To-Hit numbers)

Without going to off-topic if we were to decide rolling a Natural 12 automatically succeeds, then it falls to reason, one must also include the rule of Rolling a Natural 2 is an auto-miss.

And at this point the Alpha Strike rules starts to become it's own set of rules mechanics which begins to vary too far from it's parent rule set.

That said, I have no Qualms if rolling a 12 then role a d6 and if it is a 5 or a 6 then a possible critical. Because i really dislike the I need to roll a 12 to hit, and it's such a long shot, that if I succeed, then YIPPEE I also get a crit!

[ColBosch]

And at this point the Alpha Strike rules starts to become it's own set of rules mechanics which begins to vary too far from it's parent rule set.

I would be okay with Alpha Strike wandering afield from BattleTech if it results in a superior game with much the same feel. To that end, instead of adding another ****** die roll, how about borrowing from other game systems, and have a natural-12 be an automatic critical hit if you needed 9 or better at least? That gives a chance to reward players who have maneuvered well, but doesn't actually penalize folks who are forced to take snap shots.

[abou]

What about a margin of success for a possible critical hit? I don't know what the number would be, but for example:

MoS of +5 gives the chance for a critical hit. So with a to-hit of 6, player roles an 11 or 12, and therefore gets to roll for a potential critical.

However, this may make veteran and elite pilots even more devastating.

Increasing the chances of critical hits would, in my opinion, return some of the feel from Total Warfare: a game where stray shots or a lucky clustering can penetrate to the internal structure of one location before stripping all the armor off.

[Weirdo]

Again, the issue I have with this is it goes beyond merely getting criticals. Does this mean a 12 automatically hits?

I don't see anything that says 12 would be auto-hit. Just that when you land a hit, if the roll was a natural 12, you'd roll once on the crit table. Nothing more, nothing less.

[NeonKnight]

I would be okay with Alpha Strike wandering afield from BattleTech if it results in a superior game with much the same feel. To that end, instead of adding another ****** die roll, how about borrowing from other game systems, and have a natural-12 be an automatic critical hit if you needed 9 or better at least? That gives a chance to reward players who have maneuvered well, but doesn't actually penalize folks who are forced to take snap shots.

I'd be OK with that. It's something I have hated so much from many past games (D&D I'm looking at you), where a Player has no hope of success but rolls the die and get the nat-20, or the Box-Cars or what have you, and not only is it a success, but it is a critical success.

[NeonKnight]

I don't see anything that says 12 would be auto-hit. Just that when you land a hit, if the roll was a natural 12, you'd roll once on the crit table. Nothing more, nothing less.

No, I get that, but it cheapens (in my mind, and hey, if the PTB decide that is the way to go, then so be it).

A Player who needs a 8+ to succeed will succeed more often, but likely not get a critical

A Player who needs a 12, while having a much slimmer margin of success, has a 100% chance of being guaranteed a chance for a critical if they succeed.

[Frabby]

Crits on natural 12 or margin of success does disproportionally favor long range combat (pot shots become much more dangerous), which in turn devaluates the maneuvering aspect. I think that would be bad.

So perhaps limit improved crit chances to point-blank/physical attacks?

[Weirdo]

No, I get that, but it cheapens (in my mind, and hey, if the PTB decide that is the way to go, then so be it).

A Player who needs a 8+ to succeed will succeed more often, but likely not get a critical

A Player who needs a 12, while having a much slimmer margin of success, has a 100% chance of being guaranteed a chance for a critical if they succeed.

You'll crit just as often because the odds of rolling a 12 don't change, it just means you'll be doing a lot less raw damage. The guy that needs 8s is much more likely to actually kill his target than the guy that needs 12s, and that's kinda the point of the game.

[nckestrel]

You'll crit just as often because the odds of rolling a 12 don't change, it just means you'll be doing a lot less raw damage. The guy that needs 8s is much more likely to actually kill his target than the guy that needs 12s, and that's kinda the point of the game.

Yes, but I'm fairly certain he's saying he doesn't want somebody shooting on 12s to crit just as often as somebody shooting on 5s.
I should not hit a bullseye from 1000 yards as often as I do from 10 yards.
Marksman gives a crit, but requires an MoS of 3. Sharpshooter also requires an MoS of 3.
The shock value of rolling box cars might be worth more than that though. Requiring an MoS might be more realistic and fair, but box cars may be more emotionally fulfilling to the player.

[Weirdo]

Yes, but I'm fairly certain he's saying he doesn't want somebody shooting on 12s to crit just as often as somebody shooting on 5s.

He won't. The guy shooting at 12s will score a crit once every blue moon, because that's how often he'll hit with anything at all. The guy shooting at 5s will score a LOT more crits, because in addition to his blue moon 12s, he'll chew through armor in no time and get his crits the normal way.

[nckestrel]

He won't. The guy shooting at 12s will score a crit once every blue moon, because that's how often he'll hit with anything at all. The guy shooting at 5s will score a LOT more crits, because in addition to his blue moon 12s, he'll chew through armor in no time and get his crits the normal way.

I assumed my "crits" to mean "crits from rolling 12s" from the context.  It didn't mean crits from hitting structure, or thresholding aerospace, or crits from SPAs.
It's the concept that a person at 10 yards hits a bullseye as often as one from 1000 yards.  Armoring the bullseye has nothing to do with how often I think a bullseye should be hit.

[NeonKnight]

Yes, nckestrel has the right of it.

It's the concept that if I need a 8+ to hit (because I'm standing 50 feet from the Target and aiming a Pistol), I can hit with a:

8 (the Target Board)
9 The Out Ring
10 The Inner Ring
11 The Centre Ring
12 The Bull's-eye

but if I need a 12 to Hit (Because I'm now 100 Feet from the same target and shooting from the hip), If I hit, I'm Always hitting the bulls-eye, and is frankly a concept in most games I dislike.

[abou]

What about borrowing from Pathfinder/D&D? It is one more die roll, but you roll again to confirm. No extra math involved.

Example: you need a 7 to-hit. You roll 12. Roll again: 7 or greater means the chance for a critical; 6 or less means just a normal hit.

So this balances everything out. You basically would have to roll a successful to-hit twice.

[ColBosch]

What about borrowing from Pathfinder/D&D? It is one more die roll, but you roll again to confirm. No extra math involved.

Example: you need a 7 to-hit. You roll 12. Roll again: 7 or greater means the chance for a critical; 6 or less means just a normal hit.

So this balances everything out. You basically would have to roll a successful to-hit twice.

Because I don't want MORE die rolls, which is why I suggested the "margin of success" limit earlier.

[abou]

Sorry, man, but at least this is alpha strike. It is a quick roll with no extra math. Otherwise, I don't know how to make this work without being over or underpowered.

[Weirdo]

Yes, nckestrel has the right of it.

It's the concept that if I need a 8+ to hit (because I'm standing 50 feet from the Target and aiming a Pistol), I can hit with a:

8 (the Target Board)
9 The Out Ring
10 The Inner Ring
11 The Centre Ring
12 The Bull's-eye

but if I need a 12 to Hit (Because I'm now 100 Feet from the same target and shooting from the hip), If I hit, I'm Always hitting the bulls-eye, and is frankly a concept in most games I dislike.

How are you always hitting the bullseye? Needing twelves means you're almost always missing entirely. I understand that the percentage of bullseyes per hit is going up, but the number of actual hits is going so far down that those bullseyes are negligible. The fact that every hit will be a bullseye is completely irrelevant, because by and large, you're not going to hit at all.

[Fear Factory]

My thoughts?  This is hilarious.

The old-timers (and I am one of them) in this game do not want to change Total Warfare (or BattleTech 1.0) in any way to streamline it, may it be speeding it up or just updating the outdated set.  However, when it comes to Alpha Strike, a well-made modern ruleset (I do enjoy), there is always a discussion about making the game feel more like Total Warfare.  This thread is the perfect example of it:  Alpha Strike lacks something, propose adding more critical hits to bring in the feel Total Warfare, regular Alpha Strike players oppose it because they can't ever go back to Total Warfare, old BattleTech players subconsciously envy faster play but still try and push the old rules.

So, how about we actually do something productive about Total Warfare?  How about for every new rule we want to add to Alpha Strike that is inspired from Total Warfare, we take something from Alpha Strike (like movement rules) and throw it into Total Warfare?  I think it's a fair compromise that will actually make the game better.

So, I'll stop dreaming, the only rule I can get behind is #1 because it would feel like a floating critical.   :(

[Fear Factory]

Also, maybe something like "hot dice" could be looked at.  For example, you roll your normal 2d6 to hit with a different color 1d6.  The result of the 1d6 could mean something depending on the type of target.  BattleMech could be 1 out of 6, Vehicle 2 out of 6, etc...

You could even make other results mean something, so 1 in 6 could be a critical hit, maybe another result is bonus damage or something based off of the unit type?

[wolfspider]

1) if you roll a natural 12 on your to-hit roll, you roll once on the critical hit table (in addition to any other critical hit checks).
 
We have been using this in my groups Alpha Strike games for about a year and half, and it does add favor to the game. In fact a few weeks ago I lost my pristine marauder to a natural 12 hit resulted in a head hit on the critical hit table. He was also the leader of my forces and it was the first turn of the game!  xp We also roll a set of dice for each point of damage which does not slow the game in any way. (of course most of our players also play 40k so rolling dice for us is part of the fun!)