A Decision Between Two Tanks

[Liam's Ghost]

So suppose you are the member of the senior staff of a military on the scale of the Star League Defense Force (A whole lot of units).

The high command and the civilian authority has called for the streamlining of the battle forces, and has set their sights on the Tank Corps. Specifically, your two principle main line tanks, which are so similar in design that they insist you pick one for continued production and begin phasing out the other.

Here are the two competing designs:

Code: [Select]

Basilisk Main Battle Tank

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 3,660,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,147

Power Plant:  240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  PPC
    1  MML-9 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    1  Light Machine Gun
    1  Anti-Missile System
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17.50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         3.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.50
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 250                 13.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     60       
                                          Left/Right   50/50       
                                              Turret     50       
                                                Rear     40       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC                                          T         10        1         7.00
Light Machine Gun                            T         0         1         0.50
MML-9                                        T         5         1         6.00
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1.00
Anti-Missile System                          T         1         1         0.50
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0.50
@LMG (1/2) (100)                             BD        -         0         0.50
@MML-9 (LRM Art-IV) (13)                     BD        -         0         1.00
@MML-9 (SRM Art-IV) (11)                     BD        -         0         1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 11
4t         3       3       2       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, TUR(3/3/2, SRM 1/1/1, LRM 1/1/1, IF 1/1/1), IF 1


Code: [Select]

Panther Medium Tank (update)

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 2,773,750 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,006

Power Plant:  200 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  PPC
    1  MML-5 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    2  Vehicular Grenade Launchers
    1  Light Machine Gun
    1  Anti-Missile System
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                5.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                200                      13.00
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.50
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 215                 11.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     46       
                                          Left/Right   43/43       
                                              Turret     43       
                                                Rear     40       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 (F) Vehicular Grenade Launchers            FR        -         2         1.00
PPC                                          T         10        1         7.00
Light Machine Gun                            T         0         1         0.50
Anti-Missile System                          T         1         1         0.50
MML-5                                        T         3         1         3.00
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1.00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0.50
@LMG (1/2) (100)                             BD        -         0         0.50
@Anti-Missile System (12)                    BD        -         0         1.00
@MML-5 (SRM Art-IV) (20)                     BD        -         0         1.00
@MML-5 (LRM Art-IV) (24)                     BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      7    Points: 10
4t         2       2       2       0      2     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, TUR(2/2/2)

In addition to this, each vehicle serves as the basis for two other vehicles, a cavalry tank that trades protection for a bigger engine (in the case of the basilisk this involves switching to a light engine) and an infantry fighting vehicle (in the case of the basilisk the IFV is actually based on the cavalry variant). So the choice will have far reaching consequences.

Considerations (in no particular order): Cost, Transportability, combat capability. Feel free to justify your opinion.

Record sheets are attached.

[worktroll]

I'm going with the Panther. The main reason? Fits in a light vehicle bay. For transport of large numbers of units, this represents the best efficiency.

You've deliberately made the designs near-identical. The main differences are, to my eye,
- fewer MML tubes, but more accurate
- the v-grenades

So you're maintaining the flexibility & range of alternate uses. Both provide 2 tons of MML ammo (I might have dropped the v-grenades for a third ton of MML ammo, for speciality SRM rounds), both have CASE and AMS. The Basilisk does have 20% more armour, but costs 40% more (roughly) than the Panther.

Given all that, the more convenient size - not to mention 90% of the combat capacity, as measured by BV, as the 40% more expensive Basilisk, I have to go with the lighter tank as presented. Unless you've hidden a flaw in there these aged eyes missed ...

W.

[gomiville]

I agree with worktroll: the Panther.

Fits in a light vehicle bay.
Is cheaper.
Has good armor protection, even if a little less than the Basilisk.
Has decent missile load, even if about half of the Basilisk.
Can use vehicle grenades, which aren't super powerful or critical, but a nice option to add in.
Is a more flexible base chassis (not needing to change the engine type for variants).

That last point is important, I think, in the larger fluff idea.  The Panther can be used as the basis for the cavalry and IFV variants, without changing the engine type, which could be the difference between a Class D and a Class F refit.  It's outside conventional game play, but that's a nice idea for tanks to be modified in forward maintenance bases, rather than being returned to the factory.  If you're streamlining the tank corps, that's a nice selection criteria.

[Fireangel]

I'm with Worktroll as well, though I'll add:

Which company is buttering my toast?  8) This IS the SLDF procurement bureau, after all!  :D

[worktroll]

If it was a LCAF unit of the period, the answer would have involved lashing the two together, and calling it the "Thorunderthizerammerung Scout Tank", of course ;)

I did choose to ignore the personal pecuniary interest side, in the hope that the Panther manufacturer would pay commission by unit ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

Same company, sorry. :P

A brief history of the two designs: The Panther was introduced first (as an earlier model with standard armor and an SRM 6 instead of the MML). At the time it was intended as a second line replacement for a particularly lackluster earlier medium tank, while a slightly upgraded Manticore did front line duties. The Basilisk replaced the earlier Manticores, then the Panther got a pair of updates (first the improved armor, then the MML rack), which is how we ended up where we are now.

The factory, of course, would like to keep both in production because of all of that sweet sweet cash money.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Panther.  WT has the right of it.

[misterpants]

Yeah, the way light/heavy vehicle bays break, it goes to the Panther.

If you're willing to shave some protection and gear, you can get a 5/8 Panther: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=17175.msg432940#msg432940

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yup. Panther.

[worktroll]

In terms of your cavalry version, there seems little point in not making the engine an XL engine. In which case, you may as well go 6/9.

That drops your total warload by 1.5 tons, keeping the turret weight in mind, so drop the LMG & the v-grens. The cavalry version can be the basis of an IFV, carrying an LPPC and two MML-5s sans Artemis in the turret, and a platoon-sized infantry bay in the hull.

The standard version, with turret removed, can mount an Arrow IV and four tons ammo with a hull-mounted LMG for artillery support.

The variations are endless.

[Cannonshop]

I'll go Panther for two reasons:

1. more dropships can carry one.
2. cost.  It costs less in terms of raw materials to build than the Basilisk, while providing performance very close to the larger vehicle.  ths is 'Darkage' and in the Darkage, cost matters just a hair more, with most conflicts being limited-scale and armies being MUCH more restricted in size and budget.

considerations: differences (aside from the obvious differences in warloads) are:

1. glacis-the Basilisk has 14 more points to the glacis, 7 more to the sides and 7 more to the turret.  Now, losing a turret still kills your tank, as it does with all the other facings, and yes, as long as you're nose on to incoming fire, the thicker glacis is valuable.

but...

it's not enough over-all protection superiority to justify a heavier chassis.

2. Deployability/transportability/logistical tail: the Panthers is better.  They can fit in more dropships, take up less transport mass (which can then be used for things like ammunition, spare parts, pogie bait...), which means they can be exported more readily, deployed more easily, and kept operational in the field longer (see, even if you max out every tonne of supplies, it's still better to have more tonnage for supplies per dropship, assuming equal carry weight!)

3. Cost.  The Panther is cheaper by a fair margin-nearly a full million C-bills, this makes it attractive as an export model, and makes it easier to fund variants.  (this also boosts potential profit margins, esp. with bulk sales.)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Is there also a difference in crew between the two?

[Fireangel]

Is there also a difference in crew between the two?

Based on tonnage, Panther requires a crew of 3, while the Basilisk needs 4.

Another point in favor of the Panther.

Nothing to see here... move along...  #P

;)

[bluedragon7]

Isnt it tons/15 rounded up? Then it would be 4 each?
Also like the Panther more for the mentioned reasons

[Fireangel]

Isnt it tons/15 rounded up? Then it would be 4 each?
Also like the Panther more for the mentioned reasons

You are correct. 1/15 tons or fraction thereof.

See what happens when you take non-non-drowsy cold medicine and post?  :-[

[Daryk]

Ah, so there IS a reason for 45 ton tanks in a universe where you can build 50 tonners...

[Fireangel]

Ah, so there IS a reason for 45 ton tanks in a universe where you can build 50 tonners...

Yup.

[Liam's Ghost]

I can't say I'm surprised how the poll is going... I think my love of Manticores is the only reason I didn't just dump the basilisk from the beginning.  :D

Of course, the Basilisk will still have a place in this particular army (they haven't fully transitioned by the time the shooting started).  The Lyrans may get some surplus basilisks in their care package though...

(yes, it's the Hegemony military from ...And I Feel Fine)

[worktroll]

I demand a Sturmpanther with a hull-mounted iHGR, if not a Clan RAC-20 ... ;D

[Hellraiser]

I voted for the Panther but not for any of WT's reasons.

Instead, what got me is the same thing that Gomiville pointed out below.

(not needing to change the engine type for variants).

I actually prefer the Basilisk as a tank, but, the whole moving to a LFE thing really turned me off.

1. more dropships can carry one.
2. cost.  It costs less in terms of raw materials to build than the Basilisk, while providing performance very close to the larger vehicle.  ths is 'Darkage' and in the Darkage, cost matters just a hair more, with most conflicts being limited-scale and armies being MUCH more restricted in size and budget.

I actually disagree here.

1.  The # of dropships that use the Light Vee Bay is small, down right few really.  And I think ALL of them are focused on Infantry &/or Recon as well so lets face it, Hovers, Vtols, & Light IFVs are what is going to be the rule there.  Not something I'm going to be using to deploy my MBT Cavalry units to begin with.

2.  The ROTS showed us that cost means nothing with their massive push for a more effective single unit even if it cost more $$.  Just look at the shear volume of LFE, XL, & 2XL models they deploy. 
Scapha anyone?? OMG!!!  Even if it is a cool little hover tank, the cost is ridiculous.
I swear they don't know what an ICE or SFE is any more.

[Hellraiser]

Ah, so there IS a reason for 45 ton tanks in a universe where you can build 50 tonners...

Can you say Regulator? 
There is only ONE thing about that Tank take that sucks........ Its made by Liao  ;)
By the stats alone, its pure awesome.

[Cannonshop]

I voted for the Panther but not for any of WT's reasons.

Instead, what got me is the same thing that Gomiville pointed out below.I actually prefer the Basilisk as a tank, but, the whole moving to a LFE thing really turned me off.

I actually disagree here.

1.  The # of dropships that use the Light Vee Bay is small, down right few really.  And I think ALL of them are focused on Infantry &/or Recon as well so lets face it, Hovers, Vtols, & Light IFVs are what is going to be the rule there.  Not something I'm going to be using to deploy my MBT Cavalry units to begin with.

2.  The ROTS showed us that cost means nothing with their massive push for a more effective single unit even if it cost more $$.  Just look at the shear volume of LFE, XL, & 2XL models they deploy. 
Scapha anyone?? OMG!!!  Even if it is a cool little hover tank, the cost is ridiculous.
I swear they don't know what an ICE or SFE is any more.

ROTS was a special case-unlimited budgets and the ability to blackmail industries across the sphere, along with all that juicy permanent income from everyone being dependent on them as the monopoly provider of Comstar's services means they can spend money on boondoggles without a thought.

Kinda like the Terran Hegemony during the early Star League years.

Where those monies were prioritized is also an indicator-huge amounts of expensive hardware, but insufficient support for core infrastructures, a "republic" unable to transition power smoothly, maintain civil order under emergency conditions, or indeed operate coherently without it's charismatic founder's direct intervention-because it was structured to come apart in thousands of flying splinters.

as actually happened in the Dark Age timeline.

Devlin Stone spent so much on shiny hardware they didn't bother putting locks on the local armories or conducting basic security clearance procedures to prevent mini-generalissimos from arising the minute the HPG net went down.

[misterpants]

1.  The # of dropships that use the Light Vee Bay is small, down right few really.  And I think ALL of them are focused on Infantry &/or Recon as well so lets face it, Hovers, Vtols, & Light IFVs are what is going to be the rule there.  Not something I'm going to be using to deploy my MBT Cavalry units to begin with.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the few light vehicle droppers from? In the SW area out of the seven vehicle toting dropships (Condor, Excalibur, Fortress, Fury, Gazelle, Seeker, and Triumph), four carry lights.

[Hellraiser]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the few light vehicle droppers from? In the SW area out of the seven vehicle toting dropships (Condor, Excalibur, Fortress, Fury, Gazelle, Seeker, and Triumph), four carry lights.

Of those 4, every single one of them also carries infantry as I mentioned.  And one carries over 5x the # of Heavy Bays as Light Bays.

As I said, those that have Light bays seem to focus on APC's & Recon in their fluff &/or deployment of infantry.

Perhaps I should have said few #'s of dedicated Light Vehicle Bays compared to Heavy Bays.

Expanding your review of dropships a bit.

Only Heavy Vee Bays =
Excalibur (90),  Fortress (12),  Gazelle (15), Overlord-Vee (12), Dictator-Command (18),
Hannibal (12), Hercules (36), Lion (12), Elephant (8), Conquistador (12), Colossus (72)

Mixed Vee Bays =
Triumph (45 Heavy + 8 Light + 4 Infantry Platoons)

Only Light Bays (& Infantry) =
Condor (20+12IP), Vulture (12+6IP), Fury (8+4IP), Seeker (40+4IP)


Light Vehicle Bays either get tacked on to Infantry Carriers to give them some boosted mobility or recon units, (Condor, Vulture, Fury),  or they get a couple added to a mostly Heavy carrier (Triumph),  or they are specifically designed & fluffed as a scout battalion carrier (Seeker).

Nowhere is there a dedicated Light Vee carrier that is actually intended to deploy large #'s of 50 Ton MBT's.

Not saying I agree with it, just saying that the majority of Vedettes are likely getting deployed out of Gazelles, Triumphs, & Excalibur's.   Not out of Furies.

[sillybrit]

If this actually was the SLDF, the answer would be to pick both and then start developing a third tank design, because SLDF.

If I was to chose on the basis of name, I would pick the Basilisk. Fanboyism for the historical Panther tank puts me off any tank design called Panther.

If I was to chose on the basis of cost, performance, etc, I would pick the Panther. The extra armor and MML tubes of the Basilisk aren't enough to compete with the ability to use light vehicle bays, the lower cost, and the even greater cost savings of the cavalry and IFV versions.

In short, I need a poll answer of "All of the above".

As for the issue that there's a paucity of DropShip designs with large numbers of light vehicle bays, I'd point out that we're talking about custom vehicles, so worrying about canon DropShips seems pointless.

[Cannonshop]

If you have a Heavy bay, you can carry a light-with spare parts, or extra working space.

If you have a light bay, you can not carry a Heavy vehicle in it.

Thus, the Panther is more portable, and by extension, easier to support, ton-for-ton, than the Basilisk.


If you're dropshipping them as cargo, you can carry more Panthers, or more panther-parts with the same number of chassis.

Parts includes ammo.

Those are your basic logistical efficiencies-and it matters more if you're also looking at issues of normal wear-and-tear, or moving them as export, or looking at sustained operations-more cargo space devoted to spares for your tanks per dropship means those tanks can operate longer once they get to the destination.  More tanks per raw tonne of cargo space means needing fewer dropships to get your garrison in place and operational, or getting more tanks from planet 'A' to planet 'Z' for the same cost in fuel and launch/landing cycles.

Further, on the interstellar scale, it means faster deployment-because you don't need as many docking collars to move the same large forces, or to move the same proportion of support equipment, which means not needing as many jump-cycles to support operations in an invasion or planetary invasion relief operation, and it means getting more tracks on the line in less time.