Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 164181 times)

Dragon Cat

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #270 on: 07 October 2017, 01:41:31 »
Haven't actually watched it yet, but isn't she already corrupted? I mean, she was in prison...

She did what she thought was the only course of action (not necessarily the right course) unfortunately it was against her captains orders and she had to assault said captain to do it

In all honesty to me it was an immature move for someone in her position she let personal bias rule her head
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #271 on: 07 October 2017, 02:27:10 »
A rather emotional and illogical move for someone who grew up under Sarek and was said to be very much like a Vulcan herself...
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #272 on: 07 October 2017, 03:00:59 »
It's almost as if they wrote her to be some sort of flawed character!
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #273 on: 07 October 2017, 03:45:55 »
It's almost as if they wrote her to be some sort of flawed character!

Know you want to defend her-'cuz she's played by a pretty actress from a show you probably also watched and loved...but.

Bunny Burnham's behaviours (alliteration, neat) BEFORE she attempted mutiny, even before she oneshots the first Klingon she meets, is an example of some seriously bad writing of a character and some ridiculously bad setup.

Take her by the context as shown.  This is supposed to be a senior officer with seven years' experience, not your college roomie or your freaky ex-girlfriend.

she consistently doesn't act the part of someone who actually knows what they're doing, or has the experiences and expertise to have survived a seven year tour on an exploration, patrol, or even littoral vessel.

She acts instead like a vacationer on a chartered boat-and that's before she nerve-pinches her friend and commanding officer as step one in a mutiny.

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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #274 on: 07 October 2017, 03:49:44 »
Know you want to defend her-'cuz she's played by a pretty actress from a show you probably also watched and loved...but.

Never seen her in a show before Discovery, and am incapable of finding celebrities attractive.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #275 on: 07 October 2017, 10:48:01 »
Never seen her in a show before Discovery, and am incapable of finding celebrities attractive.

Then, I  suggest you watch it (the first two episodes) again. Maybe with a friend who's done a dangerous job or served in the military.  Watch how many times they facepalm before she even reaches the Klingon, or monitor the disgusted sighs as each successively improbable thing happens because Burnham.  We're not talking 'Flawed' here, we're talking 'blindingly unrealistic', she's supposed to be a full commander, an XO, and she's behaving like a boot shake-and-bake butterbar with emotional problems and a commander who's never disciplined her undisciplined (though very shapely) ass. 

In the THIRD episode, it's even revealed she didn't attend the Academy (much less graduate), so she's an unqualified person in what appears to have been an unearned position in the first two episodes-a position gained in the manner of a 19th century modern major general, perhaps.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #276 on: 07 October 2017, 11:24:36 »
I'm surprised Star Fleet functions at all with such light punishment for mutiny.  It looks all too easy to steal a ship.  Mutineers simply don't belong on the same side of the air lock with the crew.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #277 on: 07 October 2017, 11:42:41 »
Then, I  suggest you watch it (the first two episodes) again. Maybe with a friend who's done a dangerous job or served in the military.  Watch how many times they facepalm before she even reaches the Klingon, or monitor the disgusted sighs as each successively improbable thing happens because Burnham.  We're not talking 'Flawed' here, we're talking 'blindingly unrealistic', she's supposed to be a full commander, an XO, and she's behaving like a boot shake-and-bake butterbar with emotional problems and a commander who's never disciplined her undisciplined (though very shapely) ass. 

In the THIRD episode, it's even revealed she didn't attend the Academy (much less graduate), so she's an unqualified person in what appears to have been an unearned position in the first two episodes-a position gained in the manner of a 19th century modern major general, perhaps.

In all honesty, I don't care about such criticisms because this is Star Trek we're talking about.  Realism went out the window 50 years ago.  It's pointless nitpicking.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #278 on: 07 October 2017, 15:36:38 »
It's almost as if they wrote her to be some sort of flawed character!
Flawed would be fine, but it's all the OTHER characters in the show telling her how cold and logical she is that is the problem.  If it was a "For someone raised by Vulcans you're a serious cowboy" that'd be fine, but it's done completely serious that she's a total cold-fish logic-only type which...isn't what we are shown.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #279 on: 07 October 2017, 15:46:31 »
Flawed would be fine, but it's all the OTHER characters in the show telling her how cold and logical she is that is the problem.  If it was a "For someone raised by Vulcans you're a serious cowboy" that'd be fine, but it's done completely serious that she's a total cold-fish logic-only type which...isn't what we are shown.

Who's actually said that though?  Captain Georgiou was all about putting Burnham back in touch with her human side.  When Burnham spoke with Sarek he noted she was allowing her emotions to override her logic.  And Lieutenant Stamets seemed confused that she wasn't a Vulcan based on what information Captain Lorca had sent him.  I don't recall anyone else talking about her Vulcan heritage in relation to logic.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #280 on: 07 October 2017, 16:15:10 »
Before for it was old TOS series, won't a Vulcan being emotional be technically a Romulan? 
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #281 on: 07 October 2017, 16:25:19 »
Before for it was old TOS series, won't a Vulcan being emotional be technically a Romulan?

Nope. Romulans are a culture distinct from Vulcan's, even an emotional one. You wouldn't call Sybok a Romulan, would you?



On a different tac, some of us view Discovery as a dumpster fire, and some of us enjoy it. Oddly enough, that doesn't mean we can't coexist. Let those who enjoy it watch it, the rest will find something else to watch.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #282 on: 07 October 2017, 16:26:41 »
Before for it was old TOS series, won't a Vulcan being emotional be technically a Romulan? 

Trek is very clear that Vulcans are incredibly emotional, to the point that if they don't keep it in check, they can't control themselves.  Hence the devotion to logic
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Cannonshop

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #283 on: 07 October 2017, 16:56:24 »
Who's actually said that though?  Captain Georgiou was all about putting Burnham back in touch with her human side.  When Burnham spoke with Sarek he noted she was allowing her emotions to override her logic.  And Lieutenant Stamets seemed confused that she wasn't a Vulcan based on what information Captain Lorca had sent him.  I don't recall anyone else talking about her Vulcan heritage in relation to logic.

thing is, at no point in the first two episodes, did she act logically.  I've seen eight year olds who used more logical thinking than Burnham.  "Logical" doesn't mean "Wooden", anymore than repetition of memorized facts equals useful intelligence.

as portrayed, she's credited with virtues she doesn't display or actually indicate having, and competencies that, on camera, are absent precisely where they logically should be seen.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #284 on: 07 October 2017, 16:58:52 »
thing is, at no point in the first two episodes, did she act logically.  I've seen eight year olds who used more logical thinking than Burnham.  "Logical" doesn't mean "Wooden", anymore than repetition of memorized facts equals useful intelligence.

as portrayed, she's credited with virtues she doesn't display or actually indicate having, and competencies that, on camera, are absent precisely where they logically should be seen.

Have you considered not watching the show?
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #285 on: 07 October 2017, 19:15:34 »
I'm enjoying it, i dig the throw the rules out the window during war shtick,specially with star trek. Its nice to see them acting flawed as all hell.  Plus its just plain nice seeing federation getting its hands dirty on their way to attempting to get to ST:TNG lvl of peace (preborg of course)
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Cannonshop

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #286 on: 07 October 2017, 22:27:24 »
I'm enjoying it, i dig the throw the rules out the window during war shtick,specially with star trek. Its nice to see them acting flawed as all hell.  Plus its just plain nice seeing federation getting its hands dirty on their way to attempting to get to ST:TNG lvl of peace (preborg of course)
Problem Fox, is that they're doing it using the stupidest methods in history.  You don't toss the rules pell-mell, you do so strategically and tactically.  As far as "Flawed" goes, these aren't FLAWED, they're DISFUNCTIONAL.  Burnham is written like a 1980's "Renegade Cop" (come to think of it, that might explain the blue uniforms.  "TJ HOOKER IN SPAAAAACE!!! (but without Bill Shatner.))
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #287 on: 08 October 2017, 00:52:05 »
I found her behavior to be very logical - it was 100% based on the vulcan experience with the Klingons. That the only respect-building they know was brute force. Shoot first and don't ask. The problem is that her captain thought it 100% based on her hatred of the Klingons for killing her parents. Hence she did what she did in order to follow the diplomatic guidelines from Sarek (shoot first, and shoot hard).


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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #288 on: 08 October 2017, 01:58:28 »
I found her behavior to be very logical - it was 100% based on the vulcan experience with the Klingons. That the only respect-building they know was brute force. Shoot first and don't ask. The problem is that her captain thought it 100% based on her hatred of the Klingons for killing her parents. Hence she did what she did in order to follow the diplomatic guidelines from Sarek (shoot first, and shoot hard).

except it was entirely NOT logical-the Vulcan experience required multiple such 'greetings' to have any effect whatsoever.  In the immediate situation she was in, she acted impulsively and irrationally from the start, with only the thinnest (micron thin) excuse of the Vulcan lesson-a lesson she didn't have the luxury of using several to several dozen to several hundred ships to establish over a period of time that a VULCAN (300+year lifespan) would term "Eventually".

Further, as a supposed expert Xenologist, with a bad experience regarding Klingons in her past, she didn't bother to ask before then how the Vulcans got them to stop shooting? really??  it wasn't covered in her education or her tutelage under Sarek? she never bothered raise the question before??  and she's supposed to be this expert Xeno-anthropologist on a ship that's running near the Klingon border for the last Seven years????

and is she supposed t be over 100 years old?? how could she be a sole survivor when it's stated the Klingons haven't been raiding across the border or talking to anyone for a bloody century???

Further, her behaviour isn't logical because:
1. backup was inbound but hours out
2. the Klingons didn't immediately attack, htey were already behaving 'strangely', making the Vulcan lesson questionable at best as a precedent.
3. she acted on emotion when she chose to start a shouting match with her commanding officer on the bridge.
4. she acted purely on emotion when she 'nerve pinched' her CO.  (paradoxically, when Bones was walking around with Spock's Katra, he couldn't make it work, but Burnham could...hmmm.)
5. The LOGICAL course, before committing to an act of mutiny, is to wait for backup, because you know you've got it coming.  Observe, and Report, because if they're changing their tactics, known tactics likely won't work. (case in  point: Georgiua gives in to her and doesn't toss her in the brig, ass-over-teakettle and swallow the key-what Burnham did, would pretty much put anyone who isn't in a badly written marysue role under constant armed guard with the codes and accesses changed. It's a frikking act of Mutiny.)

Burnham acted both unreasonably, and illogically from about the moment she woke up-and that's not including her actions PRIOR to meeting her first live klingon since childhood.  Logically, when the mission says "Flyby" and "19 minutes before the radiation damage can't be fixed" you don't linger after discovering your comms don't work.  It's a LONG walk to shelter when can't call a cab. (this is FAR different from continuing a surface mission with no comms on a class-M or other inhabitable  planet.  she doesn't have that excuse.)

Furthermore, she's doing this act of mutiny against someone who's already, on screen, demonstrated superior situational and tactical awareness (the whole planet-desert thing) as well as superior grasp of resourceful problem solving.  It is NOT logical to usurp someone who's not only your legal superior, legitimate superior, but also intellectual superior in a stress situation.

she did this.

want one more? Radiation. She's contaminated, and not finished cleaning the contamination out or off, when she barrels up, in person, to the bridge while there's a perfectly serviceable intercom right on the wall of the sickbay, so that she wouldn't be contaminating every deck-plate and passer-by she encountered on her way up there.

My point is, in all of her on-screen actions, when she's not being illogical, she's being outright stupid

and by 'stupid' I mean Porn-starlet-scream-queen stupid.
« Last Edit: 08 October 2017, 02:01:00 by Cannonshop »
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #289 on: 08 October 2017, 04:00:16 »
except it was entirely NOT logical-the Vulcan experience required multiple such 'greetings' to have any effect whatsoever.  In the immediate situation she was in, she acted impulsively and irrationally from the start, with only the thinnest (micron thin) excuse of the Vulcan lesson-a lesson she didn't have the luxury of using several to several dozen to several hundred ships to establish over a period of time that a VULCAN (300+year lifespan) would term "Eventually".

Further, as a supposed expert Xenologist, with a bad experience regarding Klingons in her past, she didn't bother to ask before then how the Vulcans got them to stop shooting? really??  it wasn't covered in her education or her tutelage under Sarek? she never bothered raise the question before??  and she's supposed to be this expert Xeno-anthropologist on a ship that's running near the Klingon border for the last Seven years????

and is she supposed t be over 100 years old?? how could she be a sole survivor when it's stated the Klingons haven't been raiding across the border or talking to anyone for a bloody century???

Further, her behaviour isn't logical because:
1. backup was inbound but hours out
2. the Klingons didn't immediately attack, htey were already behaving 'strangely', making the Vulcan lesson questionable at best as a precedent.
3. she acted on emotion when she chose to start a shouting match with her commanding officer on the bridge.
4. she acted purely on emotion when she 'nerve pinched' her CO.  (paradoxically, when Bones was walking around with Spock's Katra, he couldn't make it work, but Burnham could...hmmm.)
5. The LOGICAL course, before committing to an act of mutiny, is to wait for backup, because you know you've got it coming.  Observe, and Report, because if they're changing their tactics, known tactics likely won't work. (case in  point: Georgiua gives in to her and doesn't toss her in the brig, ass-over-teakettle and swallow the key-what Burnham did, would pretty much put anyone who isn't in a badly written marysue role under constant armed guard with the codes and accesses changed. It's a frikking act of Mutiny.)

Burnham acted both unreasonably, and illogically from about the moment she woke up-and that's not including her actions PRIOR to meeting her first live klingon since childhood.  Logically, when the mission says "Flyby" and "19 minutes before the radiation damage can't be fixed" you don't linger after discovering your comms don't work.  It's a LONG walk to shelter when can't call a cab. (this is FAR different from continuing a surface mission with no comms on a class-M or other inhabitable  planet.  she doesn't have that excuse.)

Furthermore, she's doing this act of mutiny against someone who's already, on screen, demonstrated superior situational and tactical awareness (the whole planet-desert thing) as well as superior grasp of resourceful problem solving.  It is NOT logical to usurp someone who's not only your legal superior, legitimate superior, but also intellectual superior in a stress situation.

she did this.

want one more? Radiation. She's contaminated, and not finished cleaning the contamination out or off, when she barrels up, in person, to the bridge while there's a perfectly serviceable intercom right on the wall of the sickbay, so that she wouldn't be contaminating every deck-plate and passer-by she encountered on her way up there.

My point is, in all of her on-screen actions, when she's not being illogical, she's being outright stupid

and by 'stupid' I mean Porn-starlet-scream-queen stupid.

Seriously, have you ever considered not watching the show?  It's an option.
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Trace Coburn

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #290 on: 08 October 2017, 04:10:43 »
   [copper]
  OK, folks.  Speaking as somebody who just went on beta-blockers, I’m seeing some signs of elevated blood-pressures in this thread.  I would strongly recommend that everyone take a step back.
  I haven’t seen Star Trek: Discovery, but then I’m one of those dinosaurs who expects his TV shows to actually be shown, y’know, on TV, not a streaming service.  I have no brief for or against the show itself, though this discussion is not encouraging me to seek it out.  Even so, I would point out that TV writers have been bungling their intended characterisations and catastrophically failing to do the research as long as the medium has existed.  It’s not a matter of life and death, even when perceived in an iconic franchise like Star Trek.  And if you want to get into a shouting match over your disappointment?  This is not the place to hold it.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #291 on: 08 October 2017, 10:05:30 »
Even so, I would point out that TV writers have been bungling their intended characterisations and catastrophically failing to do the research as long as the medium has existed.  It’s not a matter of life and death, even when perceived in an iconic franchise like Star Trek
However, I would point out that the writers and producers for this show have and should have the 5 shows and 12 movies to learn what went right and what went wrong. Honestly, what I have heard so far it seems a lot of them didn't learn from history in order to do better than what went before them.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #292 on: 08 October 2017, 10:19:52 »
However, I would point out that the writers and producers for this show have and should have the 5 shows and 12 movies to learn what went right and what went wrong. Honestly, what I have heard so far it seems a lot of them didn't learn from history in order to do better than what went before them.

Except thats wrong - the show is so far heads and tails above both Voyager and Enterprise. And if you judge it to the first 3 TNG episode it leaves them far in the dust. (TNG took over a season to get watchable).

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #293 on: 08 October 2017, 10:27:59 »
The other thing to consider is that no show is perfect.  Trace isn't talking about Trek specifically, but every single TV show ever made.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #294 on: 08 October 2017, 11:08:26 »
The other thing to consider is that no show is perfect.  Trace isn't talking about Trek specifically, but every single TV show ever made.
I don't know about that. I think Netflix's House of Cards is damned near perfect.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #295 on: 08 October 2017, 12:12:23 »
I don't know about that. I think Netflix's House of Cards is damned near perfect.

The original version was better...

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #296 on: 08 October 2017, 13:50:55 »
want one more? Radiation. She's contaminated, and not finished cleaning the contamination out or off, when she barrels up, in person, to the bridge while there's a perfectly serviceable intercom right on the wall of the sickbay, so that she wouldn't be contaminating every deck-plate and passer-by she encountered on her way up there.

That's not how radiation works.  Anything that was actually radioactive would have been removed from her before starting the treatment for the cellular repair.  If you are irradiated it does not mean you are radioactive, it means you have received radiation, and have potentially radioactive material on you.  The first is a medical treatment (that she was undergoing), and the second is solved by scrubbing really well, and separating the radioactive material you remove so you don't create localized hot spots.

The reason it was bad that she left is because she halted her treatment partway through, instead of just calling the bridge as she should have done.


As an example of dealing with irradiated people, watch Dr No, when Bond and Ms Ryder are captured and have radiation contamination removed.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #297 on: 08 October 2017, 15:04:01 »
Except thats wrong - the show is so far heads and tails above both Voyager and Enterprise. And if you judge it to the first 3 TNG episode it leaves them far in the dust. (TNG took over a season to get watchable).
The problem is.... that you would have to subscribe to CBS All Access to see if it got better past the first 2 episodes (prelude as 3rd episode is the actual pilot or start of the Discovery's story) if you live in USA.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #298 on: 08 October 2017, 15:43:55 »
The problem is.... that you would have to subscribe to CBS All Access to see if it got better past the first 2 episodes (prelude as 3rd episode is the actual pilot or start of the Discovery's story) if you live in USA.

If you're not going to subscribe to CBS All Access anyway, does it matter if it got better?
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #299 on: 08 October 2017, 16:12:20 »
If you're not going to subscribe to CBS All Access anyway, does it matter if it got better?
Yeah, so this will be the first time a Star Trek series won't be fully broadcast on public TV. More power to CBS....
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