Star Trek Discovery

[Cannonshop]

I think the issue people are having with the Klingon remodels is one of continuity. You can say all you want about how some like the remodel; that's irrelevant for someone that does NOT like the remodel. While the point about different make-up/prosthetics for Klingons may be true, continuity isn't broken for them save for the very first appearance: all other subsequent appearances are "credible" variations on Klingon appearance that the continuity is not broken. Similarly for Vulcans, Romulans, etc. There was no point in the MANY years I've watched the show where I was surprised by the remodel of any of these races, and usually any of those remodels can easily be attributed to species variation. But Discovery took that too far, and breaks continuity of the franchise's past, an important draw for a long-running series that has a deep level of world-building that Trek has done. Now that's not to say the past custodians of the franchise were always good about it either; but to use that as an excuse is just that, an excuse IMHO.

Damon.

when it comes to that, you gotta understand: the makers didn't make these changes in a vacuum-there was a feeling and intent behind it.  Per the interviews and panels at ST:LV the redesign was driven by Bryan Fuller, and confirmed after his departure. 

as to what that intent was? well, we've got the official line from the comicon, STLV and other panels reported and available to look at, but I suspect it can be boiled down as simply not liking the Klingons as seen for 17 years of continuous television production and over half the Star Trek movies.

simply put, when you parse out all the rest, it comes down to "We own the IP and we don't like this part of it, so we're going to erase, remake or annihilate it."

The spirit you're looking for, is malicious vandalism.  Spray painting gang tags on a monument and calling it 'art'.  that's all that's behind it, that's all it is, it's why they put care into designing Saru's makeup so the actor could actually apply his acting ability to develop the character, while the Klingorks got a full-body tournequet and the most ridiculous redesign for their...everything, that the budget could afford.

[YingJanshi]

Except by definition it is not vandalism because they do the IP. So they can do whatever they want regardless of what the customers. Because that's all we are: merely customers. We have no direct say in how they should handle it.

That said, we do have an indirect say: by how we spend are money. And if enough people don't like it and don't want to fork over money for it, it will cause CBS to try something different. And if enough casual people like it, it doesn't matter what the purists like. And that's what I think CBS gamble has been: get the purists in the front door, but make it as widely appealing as possible. (Especially since the entire success of All Access seems poised on this single show.)

[Lorcan Nagle]

Lorcan, it's not the coverage-it's HOW the coverage was applied-the actors literally can't act through it.  and it extends to the costumes as well-the motion and movement is arthritic and awkward.  the actor playing Saru only has to deal with the hood, the poor bastards in the Klingork getups have to deal with a full-body corset AND a hood, with gloves, under hot production lighting.

And yet, they're fine when they're speaking English, and T'rell's screaming when her face was injured felt pretty real to me at least.  Which suggests that the way they're speaking is a stylistic choice.  Especially if you compare L'Rell's Klingon pronunciation to Mary Chieffo's pronunciation out of makeup in After Trek.

what they didn't make, was an interesting villain.. some interesting promo photos, sure, but in terms of something epic enough to justify the expense? Hardly even hit mediocrity there.

And as you note, whether the antagonist is interesting or not is subjective.  I felt T'Kuvma was one of the most interesting Klingons.

[Lorcan Nagle]

as to what that intent was? well, we've got the official line from the comicon, STLV and other panels reported and available to look at, but I suspect it can be boiled down as simply not liking the Klingons as seen for 17 years of continuous television production and over half the Star Trek movies.

simply put, when you parse out all the rest, it comes down to "We own the IP and we don't like this part of it, so we're going to erase, remake or annihilate it."

The spirit you're looking for, is malicious vandalism.  Spray painting gang tags on a monument and calling it 'art'. 

They changed the Trill makeup because Terry Farrell's face was "too pretty to cover up".  Was that 'malicious vandalism'?

[Daryk]

*snip* (even to the point that in the second episode, Michelle Yeoh's character basically had to jump on T'Kuvma's dagger to get stabbed.)
*snip*

You just made me very glad I didn't go past episode one.  At least she had an appropriate response to a mutineer...

[Øystein]

Another great episode,  with the classic groundhog day scenario.

[Static]

Yeah, I thought they did a good job delivering a solid stand-alone episode while still moving the ball forward on character development--reminded me a bit of Farscape on its better days. Overall, I feel like show's been getting consistently better with almost every episode. I had pretty low expectations when I started the series, but I'm beginning to look forward to new episodes quite a bit. There's still a few bits in every episode that give me a good eyebrow raise though (having a party onboard while they're underway during a time of war--that's synthehol they're drinking, right?).

[Cannonshop]

Except by definition it is not vandalism because they do the IP. So they can do whatever they want regardless of what the customers. Because that's all we are: merely customers. We have no direct say in how they should handle it.

That said, we do have an indirect say: by how we spend are money. And if enough people don't like it and don't want to fork over money for it, it will cause CBS to try something different. And if enough casual people like it, it doesn't matter what the purists like. And that's what I think CBS gamble has been: get the purists in the front door, but make it as widely appealing as possible. (Especially since the entire success of All Access seems poised on this single show.)

Let's say a kid inherits a House from his deceased parents.  Is it vandalism if he trashes the place or not?  I mean, he owns it, right?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's less like a house and more like a bed and breakfast that he's still expecting to attract paying visitors to.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Let's say a kid inherits a House from his deceased parents.  Is it vandalism if he trashes the place or not?  I mean, he owns it, right?

It's not vandalism.  Simple.

EDIT:  Let's say a kid inherits a house from his deceased parents and he redecorates in a style you don't like.  Is that vandalism?

[Lorcan Nagle]

Yeah, I thought they did a good job delivering a solid stand-alone episode while still moving the ball forward on character development--reminded me a bit of Farscape on its better days. Overall, I feel like show's been getting consistently better with almost every episode. I had pretty low expectations when I started the series, but I'm beginning to look forward to new episodes quite a bit. There's still a few bits in every episode that give me a good eyebrow raise though (having a party onboard while they're underway during a time of war--that's synthehol they're drinking, right?).

Synthehol was a TNG addition, and there were a fair few moments of people getting drunk in TOS and the TOS movies.  But people having boozy parties aren't unknown in SF war stories (it happened almost every other week in BSG)

But I feel like the show is drifting more into regular trek with the war as a background thing that surfaces into the plot every once in a while, the preview of next week's episode showed Burnham, Saru and Tyler encountering mysterious glowing things in a forest.  Between that, this weeek's time loop, clumsy racism metaphors and monsters really being gentle, there's a lot of standard Trek boxes being ticked here.

[I am Belch II]

It was Discovery's version of TNG's Cause and Effect. It was a good episode, and more Star Trek then some of the other ones. I was kinda very angry about how the show started that has turned around for me. It still has far to go to me, but now that the show has its footing I can only hope the show does better.

Rainn Wilson as Harry Mudd is just great, he is funny, sarcastic, and really good at what he does. I'm glad he will be in multiple episodes.

[Static]

Synthehol was a TNG addition, and there were a fair few moments of people getting drunk in TOS and the TOS movies.  But people having boozy parties aren't unknown in SF war stories (it happened almost every other week in BSG)

But I feel like the show is drifting more into regular trek with the war as a background thing that surfaces into the plot every once in a while, the preview of next week's episode showed Burnham, Saru and Tyler encountering mysterious glowing things in a forest.  Between that, this weeek's time loop, clumsy racism metaphors and monsters really being gentle, there's a lot of standard Trek boxes being ticked here.

I can give BSG a pass since IIRC, the drinking wasn't sanctioned most of the time, there was no possibility of shore leave, ever, and their crew compliment was probably larger. It was just hard to believe that Lorca would allow senior officers to get soaked when the Discovery could be relocated to a warzone at almost any moment. Anyway, small complaint; I thought they did a much better job of avoiding the tedium of repetition than Cause and Effect. Also yes, quite excited that there appears to be a cloud creature next week. I'm hoping we might see another go at something like Where No Man Has Gone Before later in the series--it seemed like there might have been something a little sinister about Stamets' transformation when he first plugged into the Spore Drive (it would also explain why it was never used again).

[Cannonshop]

I can give BSG a pass since IIRC, the drinking wasn't sanctioned most of the time, there was no possibility of shore leave, ever, and their crew compliment was probably larger. It was just hard to believe that Lorca would allow senior officers to get soaked when the Discovery could be relocated to a warzone at almost any moment. Anyway, small complaint; I thought they did a much better job of avoiding the tedium of repetition than Cause and Effect. Also yes, quite excited that there appears to be a cloud creature next week. I'm hoping we might see another go at something like Where No Man Has Gone Before later in the series--it seemed like there might have been something a little sinister about Stamets' transformation when he first plugged into the Spore Drive (it would also explain why it was never used again).

who says it's never to be used again??  Seriously now, they've already changed the timeline, if the show doesn't end in a catastrophic cast-killing accident, there's no real reason the owners of the IP have, to NOT make it the warp-drive replacement.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I can give BSG a pass since IIRC, the drinking wasn't sanctioned most of the time, there was no possibility of shore leave, ever, and their crew compliment was probably larger. It was just hard to believe that Lorca would allow senior officers to get soaked when the Discovery could be relocated to a warzone at almost any moment.

That's a fair point.  Of course, there's at least one raucous party in DS9, Jadzia Dax's hen night/batchelorette party, and at least some of the attendees were visibly hung over afterwards, so not everyone was drinking synthehol.  While the station was close to the front lines of the Dominion War, they definitely weren't in the same boat as Discovery's crew.  All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Lorca was OK with the party on the premise that the crew needs to blow off steam, or that they have some sort of pill that allows people to negate drunkenness and/or hangovers (and the DS9 peeps hadn't taken them yet in You Are Cordially Invited)

Anyway, small complaint; I thought they did a much better job of avoiding the tedium of repetition than Cause and Effect. Also yes, quite excited that there appears to be a cloud creature next week. I'm hoping we might see another go at something like Where No Man Has Gone Before later in the series--it seemed like there might have been something a little sinister about Stamets' transformation when he first plugged into the Spore Drive (it would also explain why it was never used again).

We know that Starfleet have the plans for the drive, so presumably something will come up that shelves the system.  Just like Burnham knew about Mudd's time crystals, and why they're not used generally.

Seriously now, they've already changed the timeline

Seriously now, no they haven't

[Wrangler]

Seriously now, no they haven't

Does the events recounted by Kirk in TOS as he describes his hero Captain Garth match up what happening in Discovery?

[Lorcan Nagle]

Does the events recounted by Kirk in TOS as he describes his hero Captain Garth match up what happening in Discovery?

Nothing in Discovery clashes with the description of Garth's exploits in the episode Whom Gods Destroy.  Notably, Kirk doesn't even mention who Garth fought at the battle of Axanar - it's been a fan assumption that he fought the Klingons, which was used in a number of licensed but not canon publications.  And even then, other licensed publications describe Axanar as a battle against the Romulans or the planet's native population.

[Maingunnery]

The CGI is nice and I like the seeming 'Into Darkness/Section 31' angle. Other then that, I think it is bad.

And while I understand that they want to differentiate their IP section from the earlier works, these new Klingons would have worked better if they were used as the Gorn.

[HobbesHurlbut]

The CGI is nice and I like the seeming 'Into Darkness/Section 31' angle. Other then that, I think it is bad.

And while I understand that they want to differentiate their IP section from the earlier works, these new Klingons would have worked better if they were used as the Gorn.

Too bad their first encounter by the Federation is in TOS. Would be violating continuity.

[monbvol]

I found some clips online and the Klingons even when speaking english, well I felt pain.  Not emotional pain, physical pain.  It sounded like it was a painful task to even speak, let alone try and emote.

[Cannonshop]

That's a fair point.  Of course, there's at least one raucous party in DS9, Jadzia Dax's hen night/batchelorette party, and at least some of the attendees were visibly hung over afterwards, so not everyone was drinking synthehol.  While the station was close to the front lines of the Dominion War, they definitely weren't in the same boat as Discovery's crew.  All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Lorca was OK with the party on the premise that the crew needs to blow off steam, or that they have some sort of pill that allows people to negate drunkenness and/or hangovers (and the DS9 peeps hadn't taken them yet in You Are Cordially Invited)

We know that Starfleet have the plans for the drive, so presumably something will come up that shelves the system.  Just like Burnham knew about Mudd's time crystals, and why they're not used generally.

Seriously now, no they haven't

sure they have.  Tribbles, dude.  Instead of being an example of an irresponsible commercial explorer selling them without first knowing anything about them (the reproductive and eating habits especially) we've got one on the desk of Captain Lorca in episode 3 of Discovery-a bit more than a decade before they were discovered.  Second is the Gorn skeleton in Lorca's closet, also more than a decade out of step with the first encounter with the Gorn.  That's two outright anachronisms, and we're still talking only three episodes in.  Should we keep going??  How about changing an established character or two:

1. Sarek-having a loving and supportive relationship with ANY of his kids?? does this fit with ANY prior appearances?  yet Burnham calls him up as her first instinct when encountering Klingons.  she's got his home number too-and he picks up, not a secretary or functionary. (What time IS IT on vulcan, anyway?)
2. Harcourt Fenton Mudd.  Transformed by Discovery from a somewhat greedy, somewhat incompetent rogue and ne'er-do-well out to make money and have a good time flouting the law, to a dangerous covert agent and outright psychopath.  That's usually a transformation that goes The other way-from 'mostly harmless' to 'serious player', not from 'serious player' to 'mostly harmless'.  That's actually a fairily serious case of continuity change right-there.

The "Klingon in a rubber suit" thing is neither here, nor there, except that ten years from now, a mutation that began a hundred years ago is going to become really quite visible, when it's largely completely invisible here, in spite of having been explained already.  THough I suppose the Klingons who can speak and move may have simply out-competed the Klingork models in terms of simple evolution, to include things like the ones who aren't hampered by seventies fetish outfits using weapons that are designed like...well, weapons, instead of being baroque art-pieces that would be pretty much impossible to use effectively, but look badass in the publicity stills and museum exhibits.

so yeah, they took a few minor dumps on continuity already just in the first six episodes, there's no reason for CBS to stop doing it, as long as they can continue to use familiar names and keep putting "Star Trek" on the box.

[Istal_Devalis]

Klingons never really get past the 'Using weapons that mostly just look cool' thing if the Bat'leth is any indication.

[Cannonshop]

Klingons never really get past the 'Using weapons that mostly just look cool' thing if the Bat'leth is any indication.

funny enough, while it's not a particularly practical weapon, it's also not spectacularly IMpractical...untiil you get to Discovery's version, which has exactly NO way to hold and wield it without pointing it at yourself.

which is kind of a fatal mistake there, shown in the first encounter burny has with a Klingork, she bumps it into him-and through him...by accident.

Take a look at "Disruptor pistols" from TOS, TNG, etc. vs. the "Disruptor pistols" from Discovery, which  kinda look like bronze rings with spiky bits attached, rather than the relatively ergonomic (four fingers and a thumb hold them easily-which even discovery's klingorks possess), angled-grip-with-a-long barrel (which is good for lining up aimed shots, btw).  The spiky bits on Discovery's weapons serve no purpose-they aren't good for knuckle-dusters, nor good for carrying where you'd carry a pistol when you're not using it.  (I really have to wonder about that, it doesn't really 'holster' well, and it's an awkward draw for something with hands and arms shaped like  a Discovery Klingon's hands and arms...)

Then we can go look at their 'warrior dagger' designs, from ST3, through DS9, to Discovery.  in the prior examples, they're made of metal (both types,) ahd have spring-out sharpened guards (both types.)

However, the grip on the Discovery Klingork weapon is going to be real interesting to try and hold on to as soon as it gets wet with...like...the blood of an enemy?  (Slick metal surfaces with scaling laid out to make it slide out of your hand isn't good grip design in ANY culture, if you're going ot use scaling, it needs to either encourage grip or be neutral, and not be angled to make it easier to drop.)

and then, there's the armor...

yes, it's pretty, isn't it? and you can't move around in it, your radius of motion on your limbs is restricted, it's layered to helpfully guide enemy fire and weapons into  your vital organs. it is functionally the OPPOSITE of what armor should do, and that's just looking at the general SHAPE.

I mean, the shape and crafting practically announce "If you wear this into a fight,  you will indeed, die in battle."  and that might be glorious, but nothing is more honorable or glorious than Winning. (and you don't do that dying) which is why DS9 Klingons wear armor and uniforms that provide coverage of vitals, and enable fast, athletic movement, so that you can....y'know, win fights occasionally?

I mean, come on, in the fight scene in episode 3, Michelle Yeoh's character had to practically help T'kuvma stab her.  (either t hat, or she decided to play a person with zero situational awareness and mild mental deficiency either way, it was a fight scene even LESS exciting than watching Jim Kirk apply the two-handed slam-punch..).

Basically, the full Klingork Retcon is taking a faction that was "Worthy Adversaries" and making them "Incompetent buffoons."

which, I guess, is what the modern market was clamoring for...but it demonstrates a defined effort to ignore or remove continuity, and my point stands-if the showrunners decide to keep the Spore Drive, nothing is going to stop them from simply determining that it's in for the rest of the run and all sequels.

Because, y'know, they own the IP and can do with it what they want...and that includes declaring the new to be 'continuous' with the old even when it blatantly isn't.

[Kentares]

Stuff he wrote...

My thoughts exactly and much more. Thats why I pretend this isnt Star Trek so I can see where this is going out of curiosity but this is already mangled beyond repair.

They should be sincere with the fans and dump everything that was done so far and start fresh (sort of what Disney did with Star Wars but at least they had the decency to say it - and even at that they didnt dumped everything).

EDIT = crap... said it was the last time I would comment about this... too late I guess... it really bothers me that they did this show this way. Sorry.

[Lorcan Nagle]

sure they have.  Tribbles, dude.  Instead of being an example of an irresponsible commercial explorer selling them without first knowing anything about them (the reproductive and eating habits especially) we've got one on the desk of Captain Lorca in episode 3 of Discovery-a bit more than a decade before they were discovered. 

Firstly, a tribble appearing on Captain Lorca's desk doesn't magically lessen the moral of The Trouble with Tribbles.  However, you're assuming they were only discovered at that point, when there is nothing in the episode to suggest that.  In fact, the first encounter between humans and Tribbles was in Star Trek: Enterprise.

Second is the Gorn skeleton in Lorca's closet, also more than a decade out of step with the first encounter with the Gorn. 

This is also conjecture, as all we know is that Lorca has a Gorn skeleton.  And well, I can point to a number of skeletons in museums of lifeforms that humanity has never interacted with,

1. Sarek-having a loving and supportive relationship with ANY of his kids?? does this fit with ANY prior appearances?  yet Burnham calls him up as her first instinct when encountering Klingons. 

Sarek used Burnham in a social experiment at an age where she couldn't give informed consent.  And he figuratively threw her under a bus when told that he had to choose whether she or Spock would be allowed join the Vulcan Expeditionary Group.  He then lied to Burnham about this choice, telling her that she didn't meet their standards.  He didn't have any regret about this until Spock decided to join Starfleet instead, rendering his choice pointless in hindsight.  When Burnham attempted to use their shared katra to find him, he would prefer to die than show her this memory, and refused to talk to her about it after she successfully melded with him and saved him.

So yeah, Sarek in Discovery is pretty much in line with his character elsewhere, in terms of his relationship with his children.

she's got his home number too-and he picks up, not a secretary or functionary.  (What time IS IT on vulcan, anyway?)

This literally happened all the time in prior stars trek.

2. Harcourt Fenton Mudd.  Transformed by Discovery from a somewhat greedy, somewhat incompetent rogue and ne'er-do-well out to make money and have a good time flouting the law, to a dangerous covert agent and outright psychopath.  That's usually a transformation that goes The other way-from 'mostly harmless' to 'serious player', not from 'serious player' to 'mostly harmless'.  That's actually a fairily serious case of continuity change right-there.

Harry Mudd first encountered the crew of the Enterprise while trying to sell three women to a group of miners.  In the 21st century, we have a word for that.  Mudd was always an amoral bastard, he only learned how to be more charming to better disarm his opponents

The "Klingon in a rubber suit" thing is neither here, nor there, except that ten years from now, a mutation that began a hundred years ago is going to become really quite visible, when it's largely completely invisible here, in spite of having been explained already.  THough I suppose the Klingons who can speak and move may have simply out-competed the Klingork models in terms of simple evolution, to include things like the ones who aren't hampered by seventies fetish outfits using weapons that are designed like...well, weapons, instead of being baroque art-pieces that would be pretty much impossible to use effectively, but look badass in the publicity stills and museum exhibits.

If the change in look to the Klingons is a problem, then it's in the back of a queue that includes the Romulans, Ferengi, and Trills amongst others.

so yeah, they took a few minor dumps on continuity already just in the first six episodes,

Your incomplete knowledge of canon and use of conjecture does not constitute a dump on continuity.

[Øystein]

They should be sincere with the fans and dump everything that was done so far and start fresh (sort of what Disney did with Star Wars but at least they had the decency to say it - and even at that they didnt dumped everything).

Of they can do as they've done, ignore the crying fanbois who think they own the property and can dictate how to run it.

And keep making a show that plenty of us enjoy.

[monbvol]

I think that is what annoys me the most about ST:D.

Yeah Star Trek and consistency are two words not likely to be in the same sentence in a positive way but it does really feel like this show is not Star Trek save the name and maybe a couple visual elements and the people behind it don't actually want it to be Star Trek either.

I don't think it is actually a bad show though from what I've been able to see for how it has developed so far.  Just not Star Trek, certainly not prime continuity Star Trek at least.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I don't think it is actually a bad show though from what I've been able to see for how it has developed so far.  Just not Star Trek, certainly not prime continuity Star Trek at least.

The last three or four episodes have been absolutely Star Trek in tone and attitude.

[monbvol]

I will admit it is hard to say from what I can see without doing something unscrupulous.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I will admit it is hard to say from what I can see without doing something unscrupulous.

That's fair, and I'm sure I said upthread if it wasn't on Netflix here I'd not be subscribing to a new service just to watch it, even though I'm really enjoying it.