Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 161795 times)

ColBosch

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #750 on: 13 January 2018, 17:07:48 »
I always liked the Defiant much more than the White Star. It just come off as a much more fierce gunship.

That's probably down to DS9's superior special effects budget. ;)
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I am Belch II

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #751 on: 13 January 2018, 17:20:49 »
I think the White Star was a little better of a ship compared to the Defiant. It's almost the same ship in terms of purpose. The gunship with way to much firepower for its size.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #752 on: 13 January 2018, 21:45:39 »
you know the best explanation I have for shatner, in how he emoted in star trek TOS was that he was a classic Shakespearian theater actor.  which basically means if you aren't over acting you aren't acting the part.
with that said some of his "over emphasis" is his style, but to be honest you can see some of the same "style" in Patrick Stewart, but in a lot of ways I feel that Stewart, is a "better" actor in that he has a "wider" range of "characters" that he can bring to life.

of course I think some of that honestly is that wasn't Shatner a lot younger when he got his "big role" than Stewart?
it looks like Shatner was around 34-35 when he was doing Star trek TOS
it looks like Stewart was around 46-47 when he started doing Star trek TNG which is ~10-12 years later, and he did dune and other things first.

Bedwyr

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #753 on: 13 January 2018, 21:57:47 »
you know the best explanation I have for shatner, in how he emoted in star trek TOS was that he was a classic Shakespearian theater actor.  which basically means if you aren't over acting you aren't acting the part.
with that said some of his "over emphasis" is his style, but to be honest you can see some of the same "style" in Patrick Stewart, but in a lot of ways I feel that Stewart, is a "better" actor in that he has a "wider" range of "characters" that he can bring to life.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Although Lorcan is right that we now have different stage acting conventions than we did once before. If you think back to a style of speaking and rhetoric for which people took elocution lessons (think of the pompous black and white news announcer from the 30s), Shatner was somewhere between that and what we see now.
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Ruger

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #754 on: 13 January 2018, 22:01:49 »
I think the White Star was a little better of a ship compared to the Defiant. It's almost the same ship in terms of purpose. The gunship with way to much firepower for its size.

I still kinda agree with Mack...they sort of look like plucked chickens...

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #755 on: 14 January 2018, 01:31:09 »
RE B5 and stuff.

Gonna quietly recommend this if you want a good story to read

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2594689/1/The-Dilgar-War

To say its a bit long is an understatement, but the whole thing is very much worth it and is a superb read.
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BirdofPrey

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #756 on: 14 January 2018, 02:01:28 »
It IS an interesting thing to bring up DS9 in the context of new Star Trek shows, though.
A LOT of the adverse reactions against Discovery have been that it goes against the nebulous ideal of what Star Trek is.  When DS9 came out and featured conflict between the characters, and ESPECIALLY when it started involving international tensions and eventually war, the same accusations were leveled against it, and while DS9 is often regarded as one of, if not the best, series, there are still those out there who think it's an insult to the Star Trek ethos.

Now, I'm not saying Discovery will be vindicated by history; everything I have seen puts it in the mediocre category: It's not great, but it's also not terrible like much of Enterprise and Voyager were so far, but it IS an interesting thing to think about when people claim it's an insult to Star Trek.  it seems very difficult to actually define what Star Trek IS in a way that both satisfies the majority, and also fits with multiple series.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #757 on: 14 January 2018, 02:18:56 »
I think STD's problem was that it felt like drama for drama's sake. Almost a case of

"Hi, I'm tara and I'm new here!"
Tara then proceeds to punch someone in the throat whilst yelling something decidedly off colour but in Andorian.  Whilst off screen you can hear the Writers and Directors going "DrrrAaaAaAmMmmmMAAAAHHH!!" like weird ghosts.

DS9's tensions and the like were more in line with the characters and how they were.  Was Major Keira combattative and resentful, of course she was, she's just undergone an occupation that from the sounds of its cruelties and tortures inflicted would have made Himmler nod in approval.

But she grew as a character. STD's characters didn't, at least to me have a personality, they were a list of traits.

Whereas Keira gave us this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHR0UPHERQ

Duet was one of the greatest episodes of DS9.
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #758 on: 14 January 2018, 02:34:05 »
Unfortunately that is just the way writing in Hollywood is getting anymore.

Less defined characters and more just a list of traits which you can count on ensures one or two characters are of a perceived minority just for the sake of seeming like the writers/producers are socially aware but all too often fails.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #759 on: 14 January 2018, 05:52:50 »
That's kind of what I was getting at. Although Lorcan is right that we now have different stage acting conventions than we did once before. If you think back to a style of speaking and rhetoric for which people took elocution lessons (think of the pompous black and white news announcer from the 30s), Shatner was somewhere between that and what we see now.

BRIAN BLESSED is much the same, he was a highly respected stage actor,  and was doing mostly serious roles when he got into TV.  But his loud bluster played well in the increasingly campy SF, Fantasy and comedy scene in the UK and he wound up being typecast - but he enjoyed it so he was fine, plus he can make money by going to cons and yelling GORDON'S ALIVE?!?!?

It IS an interesting thing to bring up DS9 in the context of new Star Trek shows, though.
A LOT of the adverse reactions against Discovery have been that it goes against the nebulous ideal of what Star Trek is.  When DS9 came out and featured conflict between the characters, and ESPECIALLY when it started involving international tensions and eventually war, the same accusations were leveled against it, and while DS9 is often regarded as one of, if not the best, series, there are still those out there who think it's an insult to the Star Trek ethos.

This is entirely true, and note this infographic Netflix released a while back:



Voyager makes up 60% of the most rewatched episodes, and TOS and DS9 don't even get a word in

Quote
Now, I'm not saying Discovery will be vindicated by history; everything I have seen puts it in the mediocre category: It's not great, but it's also not terrible like much of Enterprise and Voyager were so far, but it IS an interesting thing to think about when people claim it's an insult to Star Trek.  it seems very difficult to actually define what Star Trek IS in a way that both satisfies the majority, and also fits with multiple series.

As one of the biggest backers of DISCO on the board, I'm definitely of the opinion that there's a lot of room for improvement, but also, I keep in mind pretty much every Trek after TOS had a ropey first series.
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gyedid

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #760 on: 14 January 2018, 10:58:37 »
OK, finally got around to ep. 10, and they've even made the Terran Empire inconsistent with previous treatments.
--the TE, as shown previously, was NOT "humans only". In fact, as shown in ST:ENT, the Imperial starship crews were actually MORE multiracial than contemporary Prime universe Starfleet crews, but those other species were obviously subservient to the humans, who treated them fairly contemptuously.  And remember mirror-Spock had his own Vulcan henchmen on the mirror-Enterprise.

--the Mirror Universe itself is now more " mirror" in that everything is geo- and astro graphically reflected.  Take a close look at the new TE emblem and you'll see the east-west orientation of Earth's continents has been flipped I.e. L.A. is now on the east coast of North America.  The TOS and ST:ENT versions had the continents in their familiar locations.  There's also Saru's comment that nothing in space is where it should be, directly contradicting Scotty's assertion in "Mirror, Mirror" that phsically, everything in the MU was where it should be (except the protagonists).
--For people who like complaining about the look of the ships, they couldn't even leave the venerable Constitution class alone.  The wireframe graphic of the Defiant shows an extra joint in the nacelle pylons that was not present on either the original model or the TOS movie refit (of the Enterprise).

But the biggest problem???
[sarcasm] THE FEMALE CREWMEMBERS' UNIFORMS!!! [/sarcasm ]

Having got that out of the way...
--Didn't Tilly and Burnham take to their roles a little TOO easily?  Especially Burnham, practically the first thing she had to do was commit a murder.
--Isn't it curious how nobody seems to suspect Lorca's eagerness to assimilate to TE ways, and that he already seems to have a lot of insight into how things work there?  Why didn't anyone think to scan HIS quantum signature?
L'Rell ought to have a ball in this universe.  I would love it if her counterpart is a benevolent, loving Earth mother type.

Cheers, Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

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I am Belch II

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #761 on: 14 January 2018, 13:58:18 »
I would like to see a mirror L'Rell be this peace loving person, that meets up with the other one.
They said that the Defiant wire frame was a Terran Empire upgrade to the Defiant so hopefully that is true and they didnt butcher the all loved Connie.

I wonder who is the Emperor....Michelle Yeoh's charater...Saru...or someone that nobody has a idea who. I think they will be going to that "palace"  at some point
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #762 on: 14 January 2018, 14:12:45 »
I'm 100% positive the Emperor is going to be Mirror Georgiou.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #763 on: 14 January 2018, 17:48:26 »
I'm 100% positive the Emperor is going to be Mirror Georgiou.

georgiou could be a kid or offspring of Emperor Sato.
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gyedid

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #764 on: 15 January 2018, 00:01:08 »
I'm of the opinion that mirror-Burnham ascended to command of the Shenzhou the same way mirror-Kirk got command of the Enterprise.

Cheers, Gabe

EDIT:  you guys were right, I was wrong.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 01:31:00 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Cyc

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #765 on: 15 January 2018, 04:54:30 »
I'm 100% positive the Emperor is going to be Mirror Georgiou.

I feel Discovery is becoming a tad predictable like this, especially in this episode. As soon as they mentioned Fire Hawk was a great unifying Klingon I knew who he'd be, just like he'd serve to trigger things. Likewise the Stammet's fake-out and who else but the Emperor could be.

Also makes me wonder about Lorca's fear the Defiant intel won't provide them a means to get back is again telegraphing their intentions...

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #766 on: 15 January 2018, 07:21:18 »
Every Mirror episode has had a mirror counterpart for the key players of the show it's been part of. So it's hardly a surprise to have Georgiou show up.

I'm wondering if the entire back arc (or Chapter 2 as they are calling it), will be Mirror-based. Would be very interesting indeed. I'm loving it :D

BirdofPrey

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #767 on: 15 January 2018, 19:34:43 »
I haven't yet had a chance to see the latest few episodes of Discovery, but in general, I have never found Mirror Universe episodes particularly engaging.  The characters just seem to be flatter when they cross out half of their character traits and replace them with evil and ambitious.

Data and the EMH, when they had their ethics subroutines deleted or suppressed, were MUCH better, and more frightening and effective villains than any mirror universe baddie has ever been.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #768 on: 15 January 2018, 19:52:19 »
When did Data have his ethics subroutine suppressed?
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Kentares

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #769 on: 15 January 2018, 20:18:38 »
When did Data have his ethics subroutine suppressed?

I believe hes referring to a couple of episodes (Descent part 1 and 2) in TNG where Lore disabled Data ethical subroutines to make him perform experiments on the Borg and La Forge.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #770 on: 15 January 2018, 20:23:37 »
Was that a little hint of a smile I saw on Lorca right there at the end, when the Emperor was talking to Burnham?

During the first half of the season, I thought all those "Lorca is Mirror Lorca!" folks were crazy and I still don't see any evidence of it in those episodes (until, of course, right before that final spore jump), but damn if the writers aren't hitting it hard here in the back half.


Oh, and I really don't think the new Klingon prosthetics have anything to do with why they talk the way they do. In this most recent episode we saw Shazad Latif speak in English as a Klingon and Klingon as a human. His English while in Klingon garb didn't seem impeded in the slightest.* His Klingon while in his human form came out exactly the same as it did while in the makeup. I think the way they've been having Klingons speak in this series is just a stylistic choice.

* Of course, it could have been ADRed in post because there were problems with his enunciation while in makeup, but if that were so, they'd almost certainly be doing the same with the Klingon dialog as well, meaning that the delivery is still a stylistic choice rather than impeded somehow.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2018, 20:33:48 by roosterboy »

I am Belch II

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #771 on: 15 January 2018, 21:03:21 »
I wasn't that suprised when Georgio showed up. I figured she was still alive and well in the mirror.
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gyedid

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #772 on: 15 January 2018, 23:06:22 »
I feel Discovery is becoming a tad predictable like this, especially in this episode. As soon as they mentioned Fire Hawk was a great unifying Klingon I knew who he'd be, just like he'd serve to trigger things. Likewise the Stammet's fake-out and who else but the Emperor could be.

Also makes me wonder about Lorca's fear the Defiant intel won't provide them a means to get back is again telegraphing their intentions...

Well, it seems that passing through the "interphase" made the crew of the Defiant go nuts and they all killed each other.  So that's not an effective way of getting back to the Prime universe.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

gyedid

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #773 on: 15 January 2018, 23:19:19 »
I wasn't that suprised when Georgio showed up. I figured she was still alive and well in the mirror.

Considering the most common means of advancement in the TE Starfleet, I had thought there was a good chance that mirror-Burnham had already bumped off mirror-Georgiou.  But mirror-Georgiou being Emperor would explain how mirror-Burnham rose a position of "high prestige" within the TE.

As far as Ash is Voq...who couldn't see that coming?  Klingon medical technology must be considerably more advanced than they've been given credit for in past series/movies.
(Anyone remember how in "The Trouble With Tribbles", McCoy was able to detect that Arne Darvin was a Klingon with a simple med-tricorder scan?)  It's almost like they would've needed to create a whole new body for him, that was physiologically human and could pass all but the deepest, most dedicated scans.  An organic android body, if you would.  (If they mention the words "augment virus" I *will* vomit.)

I'm hoping that we get to see mirror-Culber soon, and that Prime-Stamets is horrified to find out that he's an amoral Josef Mengele-type who runs his sickbay as a chamber of horrors and does gruesome experiments on untranquilized living human (or alien) subjects, just because he can.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

I am Belch II

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #774 on: 16 January 2018, 09:18:27 »
The Klingons in the Prime have almost the exact same plan as the Terrans in the Mirror Universe.

The Klingon medical tech and Klingon morals don't seem to have a Hippocratic Oath like the Humans. So they can do whatever medically they want with what they can. They have used test subjects and other things on their own people many of times before in episodes of Enterprise.
I think Klingons first aid and other basic medical is lower than Star Fleet but somethings much more advanced.
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Daemion

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #775 on: 16 January 2018, 18:36:45 »
Isn't that fundamentally William Shatner's problem and he just never adjusted? Well that and some old (bad) radio drama habits you can still see in Twilight Zone and Dragnet.

For a specific definition of problem, yeah.  Shatner's delivery of lines would work a lot better with dialogue written to match the cadence.  Theatre, especially prior to the last century was written with a different sense of delivery, even ignoring the changes in how English was written and spoken in different centuries, and that plays are often translated into English in different eras too.

But Shatner won two Emmies and a Golden Globe (and yes, two Razzies too), so it's ultimately worked for him

And, let's not forget that this was still in the early years of television, so they still hadn't really worked out what really works in front of a camera versus on a stage.

Now, one last thing on the ships, the Galaxy has actually grown on me. I like it well enough. I even had a moment where the Excelsior was just as ugly to me as the Galaxy, and nothing did compare to the Connie Refit. But, seeing the Excelsior in workhorse roles, and knowing it is so common, and kinda big, it too has grown on me.

Didn't have as big an issue with the Intrepid Class Voyager or Defiant. Those worked for me from the start.

I think Voyager worked for me as a series because it was like watching Lost In Space.  The two different crews were effectively extended family forced onto a battleship and sent on an extended cruise. 
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #776 on: 16 January 2018, 18:42:38 »

As far as Ash is Voq...who couldn't see that coming? 

I was primed for this because I'd been exposed to the fan theory (somebody noticed that Shazad Letif was originally cast as Voq, and then 'recast' as Tyler and 'Javid Iqbal' was cast as Voq, but the only evidence of Iqbal's existence was his casting on DISCO) about it, but I was wondering how many other people suspected it before last week when he and L'Rell were talking in the brig.

Quote
Klingon medical technology must be considerably more advanced than they've been given credit for in past series/movies.
(Anyone remember how in "The Trouble With Tribbles", McCoy was able to detect that Arne Darvin was a Klingon with a simple med-tricorder scan?)  It's almost like they would've needed to create a whole new body for him, that was physiologically human and could pass all but the deepest, most dedicated scans. 

Assuming Discovery makes it home, it could be analysing the changes they did to Voq lead to McCoy being able to easily identify Darvin as a Klingon.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #777 on: 16 January 2018, 18:54:33 »
Now, one last thing on the ships, the Galaxy has actually grown on me. I like it well enough. I even had a moment where the Excelsior was just as ugly to me as the Galaxy, and nothing did compare to the Connie Refit. But, seeing the Excelsior in workhorse roles, and knowing it is so common, and kinda big, it too has grown on me.

I am lucky enough to own two of Ab Mobasher's Excelsior-class sculpts he did for FASA. In miniature form, and especially with Mr. Mobasher's astounding sculpting skills*, that battlewagon is simply drop-dead stunning. It blows any other Star Trek or Star Fleet Battles miniatures right out of the water. They're also huge, which helps.

* In an interview, Ab Mobasher claims that the work he did on the FASA Star Trek line has never been matched, in the sheer level of hyper-fine detail. I absolutely agree.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #778 on: 16 January 2018, 19:01:19 »
During the first half of the season, I thought all those "Lorca is Mirror Lorca!" folks were crazy and I still don't see any evidence of it in those episodes (until, of course, right before that final spore jump), but damn if the writers aren't hitting it hard here in the back half.

Let me know if it turns out that Discovery is from an alternate reality another step removed from the Prime universe, with the Mirror universe being that buffer universe. I've always been interested in exploring such concepts, which is one of the reasons I liked Dark Matter and what happened with the Skip Drive.

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Kentares

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #779 on: 17 January 2018, 14:57:28 »
Let me know if it turns out that Discovery is from an alternate reality another step removed from the Prime universe, with the Mirror universe being that buffer universe...

I already posted here that possibility but it was promptly smashed by the... fa... someone.
« Last Edit: 17 January 2018, 14:59:28 by Kentares »
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