Author Topic: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel  (Read 20126 times)

wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #30 on: 27 April 2012, 08:07:09 »
Well, neither the E and F does really impress in firepower. Especially the E since the HAGs can not be used for aimed shots and does sandpaper, making them less than ideal weapons against an Archangel. (I just noticed that the F has four tons of ammo for the RAC/5 instead of the two that I saw before, so, yes, I would rate it up a bit.)
In the case of tye Archangel, you really have two choices, blow lots of big holes in it fast, or sandpaper it and hope for crits. If it were me piloting the E, I would just blast away for a few turns hoping to concentrate damage in a critical area before turning to called shots with the ERLL. But yes, it has probably the worst chance of any variant.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #31 on: 28 April 2012, 05:37:15 »
BTW, have anyone done a more throughout analysis of the themes of the different configurations?
So far I have found that:
- the Invictus configs all use the retractable blade
- the Comminus configs mounts either ECM or BAP.
- the Luminos configs are all zombies, and jumps in five of six cases
- the Eminus configs mounts Thunderbolt launchers in five of six cases, and the last one mounts ERPPCs instead.
I have not found any themes of the Dominus and Infernus configs.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #32 on: 28 April 2012, 08:57:41 »
I might be wrong, but I believe all the Infernus ones were meant to be heat-dealers, or at least energy boats. You can start fires with PPCs, after all...
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Neufeld

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #33 on: 28 April 2012, 09:36:22 »
I might be wrong, but I believe all the Infernus ones were meant to be heat-dealers, or at least energy boats. You can start fires with PPCs, after all...

Hmm...
- Malak: Infernus has 2xERML, SnPPC, and ECM - an energy boat. Invictus and Dominus mounts flamers.
- Preta: Infernus has HPPC and ERML, Comminus has a plasma rifle.
- Grigori: Infernus with 2xMML7 and a plasma rifle.
- Deva: Infernus is an energy boat with ECM and targeting computer. Dominus can use infernos in its MML7.
- Seraph: Infernus mounts an LB 20-X. Dominus and Comminus has plasma rifles.
- Archangel: Infernus is an energy boat. Invictus has the plasma rifle.

Not really convinced.
On the other hand, most of the Infernus variants are reasonably cool running, except the Seraph. Maybe they are intended to be used in high-heat conditions instead? At least the name is about hell, but was it just picked to sound cool or not?

I tried out the names Google Translate, and it confirms that Eminus is supposed to be a long-range config, and also says that Comminus the opposite (MRMs, UAC20, pulse lasers, ERSLs sounds right). Luminos is also about light, which sounds right for an energy boat.
The translation for invictus (invincible) and dominus (lord/master) does not help. Unless dominus is supposed to be a garrison config?





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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #34 on: 28 April 2012, 09:56:17 »
Like I said, I could be wrong.

I like the high-heat conditions theory. Given at least one S-D is known for starting massive fires, being willing to fight amongst those fires while everyone else would be trying to get away from them would be a powerful psychological tool. Also handy if you expect to fight a lot of battle armor or vehicles, as you could call down indiscriminate Inferno-IV fire on your position if you got overrun.

Hmm...given that I paint all my S-D stuff on the colors of Uriel's Blinding Fire, maybe I should look into some good Arrow platforms... >:D
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #35 on: 28 April 2012, 13:11:21 »
Its quite easy really  >:D

Invictus: PR stunts
Dominus: optimized brutes, intended to dominate their niche
Infernus: Invictus done right, kind of a more generalized Dominus
Comminus: brawlers (in your face!)
Luminos: mobile energy boats (light em up!)
Eminus: ranged hole punchers (with a Thunderbolt fetish)

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #36 on: 28 April 2012, 16:06:48 »
I still would love to see a sort of "Invictus Prime" variant where they ditched the Retractable Blade for something more useful. Sort of a "When looks don't matter as much as destroying the target in the most efficient way possible."

And of course, there's always the "Gestalt" route where the design gains 2.5 tons of pod-space if you swap out the small cockpit and compact gyro for an Interface Cockpit :)

As for the standard Archangel, its a solid command `Mech. Not something I'd necessarily want to duel in, but I'd have no problems sticking a commander in and using him to support a Level II, and the Level II to support him.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #37 on: 28 April 2012, 18:17:10 »
The Archangel, like the most of the Celestials, requires too much in the way of BV to make this concept viable if you're utilizing that system of balance. A 4/4 pilot is minimal, although MD pilots are generally Veteran or Elite quality. Immediately, you're stuck with a BV hike and a very short-ranged design when compared to most of what's coming out of the Inner Sphere during this era. Compare this to the Viking, Archer, etc. and you'll see what I mean.

Let's not forget that if your range relies on a C3i network, you're boosting BV again. So you have an over-BVed unit with pitiful firepower and an over-BVed network ensuring that 3025-era damage levels get inflicted?  :-\ I think I'll pass.

Aside from the cosmetic appearance of the unit, the base chassis doesn't have much going for it. The configurations seem to have been made with the idea of "let's jam as much Blake-flavored tech on here as possible" rather than "how can we make this effective on the field?" At some point, the WoB would probably notice how stupid most of the configs are and change them. Hell, the first-generation Omnis coming out of the Combine were superior to this waste of space.

All-in-all, the chassis provides interesting possibilities which are entirely unexplored due to fluff limitations. What's left is a unit which leaves me to question just how the Shadow Divisions gained any sort of feared reputation whatsoever.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2012, 18:24:57 by TigerShark »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #38 on: 28 April 2012, 18:23:27 »
Several things.

1) Manei Domini pilots
2) LRM boats could pick it apart on a salt flat, maybe.  Good luck find terrain that hideously flat.
3) The only time this thing will ever fight anything solo is.... well, never.  That's pretty much the whole point of the Celestials.
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TigerShark

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #39 on: 28 April 2012, 18:26:38 »
Several things.

1) Manei Domini pilots
2) LRM boats could pick it apart on a salt flat, maybe.  Good luck find terrain that hideously flat.
3) The only time this thing will ever fight anything solo is.... well, never.  That's pretty much the whole point of the Celestials.

1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #40 on: 28 April 2012, 18:34:28 »
Meh.  If you're intent on looking at this unit in only the worst possible, least likely circumstances it will ever encounter, more power to you.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #41 on: 28 April 2012, 18:43:35 »
Alright, folks, settle down and be polite in here.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #42 on: 28 April 2012, 20:04:59 »
1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

Which offers a different take on the traditional role of the assault as the firesupport platform of a C3 net.

Jam this mech into the enemy's face, and dare them to take you down.  If they don't have a still active ECM (and killing enemy ECM with extreme prejudice should be a priority for any C3 net) good luck taking it down in time to do you any good.  True you need someone to hold the line till the Archangel could get there, but OTOH grinding it forward while setting up the ECM free zone is perfectly valid.

And frankly BV costs are metagaming.  BV is supposed to measure roughly the effectiveness of a unit, so higher BV ususally rates as a better mech.  You can argue that the BV is inflated for what you get, but high BV as criticism in and of itself I find specious.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #43 on: 28 April 2012, 20:10:43 »
Except for two games I used the Archangel in and fought against I have learned two things, the Archangel is a monster, capable of taking massive amounts of damage and surviving, even if it does need cleats to stay up on Ice. Thats from the game I fought against it. The game I used one I learned the Dominus version to be a true killer, it not only killed a Pillager by itself, but helped bring down a Warhammer and a Urbanmech for good measure and aided the rest of its unit with its C3i when it finally lost its leg to a lucky crit. It needs to be killed, killed dead to stop its effect on a battlefield and while its opponents are doing that, there not firing at the Archangels supporting units.
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AJC46

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #44 on: 29 April 2012, 17:35:42 »
Blakist stuff is as costly and so high in BV because they weren't intended to be normal stuff but rather "final boss" like deals in a campaign since how good most of their stuff is when applied correctly

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #45 on: 30 April 2012, 07:59:47 »
I haven't really played with the Celestials, but it seems to me that the ideal role for the Archangel would be to hold the middle so to speak rather than as a command unit. A lot of it configs seem to work best at medium range and it it can soak up tons of damage. I'd use it a screen to keep the opposition away from the snipers/long-range fire support (Deva/Grigori) and give the opposition something else to shoot at besides the more mobile spotters.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #46 on: 30 April 2012, 22:44:41 »
The Archangel, like the most of the Celestials, requires too much in the way of BV to make this concept viable if you're utilizing that system of balance. A 4/4 pilot is minimal, although MD pilots are generally Veteran or Elite quality. Immediately, you're stuck with a BV hike and a very short-ranged design when compared to most of what's coming out of the Inner Sphere during this era. Compare this to the Viking, Archer, etc. and you'll see what I mean.

Let's not forget that if your range relies on a C3i network, you're boosting BV again. So you have an over-BVed unit with pitiful firepower and an over-BVed network ensuring that 3025-era damage levels get inflicted?  :-\ I think I'll pass.

Aside from the cosmetic appearance of the unit, the base chassis doesn't have much going for it. The configurations seem to have been made with the idea of "let's jam as much Blake-flavored tech on here as possible" rather than "how can we make this effective on the field?" At some point, the WoB would probably notice how stupid most of the configs are and change them. Hell, the first-generation Omnis coming out of the Combine were superior to this waste of space.

All-in-all, the chassis provides interesting possibilities which are entirely unexplored due to fluff limitations. What's left is a unit which leaves me to question just how the Shadow Divisions gained any sort of feared reputation whatsoever.

From Personal Experience:

I happen to play in a Mekwars server set in the Jihad Era, and one of the playable factions were naturally the wobbies. I played as part of the Shadow Divisions, with the server settings giving you 3/4 pilots by default and getting celestials in well over 50% of your mech pulls. The server balances by BV2.

Needless to say, I was ALWAYS out-massed, ALWAYS out-gunned, ALWAYS outnumbered (unless I happen to fight a clanner). And I still manage to win over 60% of my games.

Sure, C3i, Leveled pilots, and the inherent high BV of the mech itself hikes your BV WAY up there, and for someone not used to them, would be far more a burden than any help, but if you know what you're doing? You can usually take on a force of 3067-3075 Era mechs with 4/5 pilots in them (or clan-tech machines with 3/4 pilots in them) and expect at least an even chance of victory, despite the disadvantages.

Also, do NOT underestimate Manei Domini pilots, especially ones with VDNI/BDVNI. The ability to HALVE your own and your target's movement modifiers makes them insanely accurate, perhaps moreso than what the BV hike would make you think.

That said, The Archangel does its best as a commander's ride, since it not only gives a high-priority target an absurdly durable ride, but the seeming lack of firepower also makes that commander seem less threatening to the other guy.

Welshman

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #47 on: 01 May 2012, 15:41:31 »
Can we get the MUL reference put into the article. Helpful for newer players.
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wantec

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #48 on: 02 May 2012, 10:17:27 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #49 on: 02 May 2012, 11:41:01 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?

The Cephalus has its Chameleon LPS on and the Osteon is...I dunno, standing behind it? Would that work?

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #50 on: 02 May 2012, 11:49:40 »
Speaking of the MUL, any reason why the Cephalus and Osteon don't have images for their MUL entries?

Toss an errata report in the MUL thread.
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #51 on: 02 May 2012, 12:00:56 »
1) BV hike for no appreciable gain and a +1 penalty to PSRs, making them 3/5 for the BV of a 3/4.
2) You're right. Mountainous terrain is TERRIBLE for IDF-based units.  ::)
3) Like I said, the C3i network will cost it quite a bit and it's not doing much damage at range anyhow.

There is no +1 - all MD Battlemech pilots rolled for automatically gain the Pain Shunt and VDNI, negating damage from ammo explosions and the +1 to PSR's from the small cockpit.  It only affects them when they are a "custom" MD like Avitue, who lack the interface.

The fact that I see many are not getting is that the Archangel is not to be used singularly and shouldn't be built up to be some "kill-em-all death machine" that we kinda wanted the MD to be.  The entire point of the Archangel is to act as an anchor unit- to find a spot either with good brackets against your opponents, or get close in to where ECM and C3i are giving everyone great to-hits- and stay there.  The compact components and energy weaponry make for a design that is principally outlasting everything on the map, but never meant to be used by itself.  This supports the other idea- that the Archangel is a commander's ride, meant to stay in the fight as long as possible.

This is apparent in the configurations, with only the Dominus and Infernus truly capable of operating alone- and that's a big stretch with how easy it is to outrange it.  Every other variant is built to work in a team with a defined role.
« Last Edit: 02 May 2012, 12:02:49 by Prince of Darkness »
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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #52 on: 02 May 2012, 13:30:47 »
Yup and it is very similar to the Osteon in that it is meant to anchor and command a unit not be a singular destroyer.  (Osteon Jaguar excluded)


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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #53 on: 02 May 2012, 15:43:51 »
Interestingly, if you use the rules for MD from Jihad Secrets (where the MD have generic rules) they don't seem to have a BV modifier. Of course, at that point you're also (theoretically) only able to get a MD pilot on a roll of 8+.

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Re: 'Mech of the Week, 27/4/2012: C-ANG-O Archangel
« Reply #54 on: 02 May 2012, 16:39:32 »
Interestingly, if you use the rules for MD from Jihad Secrets (where the MD have generic rules) they don't seem to have a BV modifier. Of course, at that point you're also (theoretically) only able to get a MD pilot on a roll of 8+.

That is because, as Catalyst has always maintained, Manei Domini are not designed for tournament play. They are a campaign plot device. The super evil coming to kill you in the night bad guy.

BV was only created for them because people asked for it, repeatedly.
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