Anyone else sick of the blackout?

[Daemion]

Tech stagnation, space magic engines and incompetent eugenic babies, to name a few, are things that come baked in the BT cake, and are acceptable to me, it's fiction. However, there are limits to hand-waveuism that I'll accept, and I personally could not accept an interstellar civilization without reliable communication. HPG communication is and was never dependent on Comstar they were just an organization that ended up with a monopoly, so they do not matter too its continue existence or use, but an interstellar civilization as large as BT requires a (FTL) HPG communication network to function. It is one thing if the HPG never existed, but it was established as an integral part of the setting early on, allowing said Comstar to amass its' power and wealth. Telling everyone now, "yeah, that FTL comm network... you don't need it going forward." Smacks of plot laziness and increasing hand-waveuism. Since it was needed before. Which the OP rightly alluded to. ...

Not confusing reality with quasi-sci-fi, but no major civilization ever maintained itself without a reliable communication network. BT should be no different. ... .

I can definitely understand this.  The Blackout should have far more ramifications than has been let on.  For one, Mech manufacturing infrastructure. It seems, from what I recall out of the source books, that the Hegemony spread out different aspects of Mech Manufacture, and the houses did nothing to really change it when they took over hegemony territories.  With FTLComm, you know how many MechWidgetIIcs you're getting and when on what shipment from Nearby, verses Cockpit component RadioIIc* from FarFarAway, which all go into that Warhammer you're cranking out on VaultWorld next to your capitol.

Suddenly, you don't have that timing anymore, and however many you get is what comes on the shipment. If Nearby sees a delay for some reason, but FarFarAway happens to get ahead, you're going to have an uneven number of components, and a drop in output to boot.

And, this is just broad strokes.  It's much more complicated than that, but it's enough of an illustration, I hope.

And, Julian's traffic? Nobody should know where he 'is', but only where he's been, maybe.  Pony traffic can be unreliable, especially when port authorities start pointing guns at ships and saying, 'you're not going anywhere', like Liao did from one system while they conducted their next wave of invasions of the Fed Suns.

But, on the flip side, big invasions would be very difficult to coordinate, requiring a lot of advance planning.

So, while I get the interest some people have in the Blackout, the current set of fiction has handled it poorly. Even the Dark Age stuff didn't really bring it to its fullest.   Those subfactions that we saw in the early MW:DA game? They shouldn't have spanned worlds.  That conflict should have been on one!  And, then move to another the ones that failed in their bid for power flee to the next world, or we see similar groups form on another world and a different conflict is resolved.

Each world is effectively on its own in the Blackout, and any information it gets is about as old as pointing a telescope at one of the nearest stars and observing the incoming light.

[Colt Ward]

Bonfire handled it well- IIRC it was the part with the Canaries and Trillian Steiner's supply re-direct, which is really the only 'spine' we get . . . even the novellas were more cameo writing.

[Daemion]

@Natasha - Dune seems to have strongly influenced BT, in the sense that interstellar FTL travel is monopolised by the Spacing Guild (Comstar) who use Heighliners (Jumpships) to carry everyone else's spaceships (Dropships) around, and FTL neutrality is enforced by Guild Interdiction. It seems to be all pony express however. The original books don't mention a separate FTL communications method, only travel, and I'm not familiar with the new stuff.

Of course, in Dune, aren't a lot of the worlds in that empire spread out over the galaxy at large, rather than the Inner Sphere's mere 1000 light year dot on the galactic map? So, HPG pulses would probably take too long if the system isn't in the same arm and quadrant as you.

Shoot, even using sub-space, Trek tech couldn't get a message home from one side of the galaxy to the other inside a few decades.

So, that Dune analogy fails due to the epic distances involved.

[Kidd]

Of course, in Dune, aren't a lot of the worlds in that empire spread out over the galaxy at large, rather than the Inner Sphere's mere 1000 light year dot on the galactic map? So, HPG pulses would probably take too long if the system isn't in the same arm and quadrant as you.

Shoot, even using sub-space, Trek tech couldn't get a message home from one side of the galaxy to the other inside a few decades.

So, that Dune analogy fails due to the epic distances involved.

It's not an analogy, just saying there are certain thematic similarities as described.

Dune doesn't use HPGs, their Heighliners don't have as long recharge times as BT, and seem not to have much range limitations either.

Also Dune communications pretty much move at the speed of plot.

[Ogra_Chief]

@Daimion
Those are some of my concerns with the continued Blackout, from an economic and social, not even going to bother with the military one; it's just not feasible based on previous lore. After looking through the NAIS 4SW Atlas's, the only pub that covers the effects of Interdiction (in detail) on a SS, and a relatively short one at that, for any length of time. Gave me a greater appreciation for those sourcebooks, they cover the economic pitfalls involved being in the dark. Whomever put them together, actually thought scenarios out. The lack of luxury goods, rationing, required JS seizures, etc. It all paints a clear picture of what to expect when the phone gets turned off.

How can you coordinate production schedules for manufacturing across hundreds of systems? Subcontractors? How do you even know what customers you have or need; how quickly can they expect product? How can a state even communicate what the hundreds of independent or corporate owned JS fleets too coordinate, even normal business, let alone emergencies... Just seems too much. But, I appreciate the thought that went into the earlier settings. But, not to be a negative Nancy, I'm sure the Republic/Blackout Era will eventually yield some fine stories.

[Natasha Kerensky]

If a world goes dark in BT, it's dead or lost, the Outworlds

This is simply untrue.  There are Outworlds systems, like Dante, that have never had an HPG due to the influence of the Omniss and their Luddite beliefs.  Despite being “dark” to FTL communications for centuries, those worlds have never been lost.

Outback is a prime example,

It’s called the Outworlds Wastes.  The Outback belongs to the Federated Suns.

Using the British Empire (Age of Sail) as an example, you cannot have an empire without ships... but, you can if you have a telegraph (or Satt.) to tell the far flung provinces, "this is what we're doing." Since we do not have enough JS assets, established by lore, we need a functional HPG network.

BT is not based on the British Empire or Age of Sail.  Its setting is based on the feudal power structures that arose in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.  Those feudal power structures functioned fine before the advent of the HPG network, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t continue to function after its loss.

[Daryk]

It's almost like the blackout was designed to reinforce the feudal aspects of the setting...

[Natasha Kerensky]

It's almost like the blackout was designed to reinforce the feudal aspects of the setting...

Dark Age probably refers to more than the HPGs going dark.  Pax Republic ends, Republic shrinks, barbarian Clans (really) invade... we’re really just waiting for the fall of Rome/Terra.

I’m guessing it’s what Weisman really wanted to portray the first time around, vice the 4th Succession War and technological renaissance that followed.

[Daryk]

That's unfortunate... I liked that storyline...

[glitterboy2098]

BT is not based on the British Empire or Age of Sail.  Its setting is based on the feudal power structures that arose in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.  Those feudal power structures functioned fine before the advent of the HPG network, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t continue to function after its loss.

especially since by now pretty much everyone has access to the Black Box systems to some degree, allowing at least some long distance coordination of their military forces and major government centers at speeds faster than that of jumpship.

[RifleMech]

BT is not based on the British Empire or Age of Sail.  Its setting is based on the feudal power structures that arose in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.  Those feudal power structures functioned fine before the advent of the HPG network, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t continue to function after its loss.

Problem with that is that the populace is used to near instant communications not hand written messages that take months to deliver.  It's like all the cell phone towers and internet connections going out leaving only old copper wires for communications. To make things even worse, half the phones are rotary and don't work with companies automated push button systems. That is going to disrupt commerce and government/military operations. They can recover but its going to take time to replace all the old infrastructure and retrain personnel to use the older systems. And that won't happen until they stop trying to fix the currant system. Once the old system is back up and running business will get up and running again but it'll be slower.

[Ogra_Chief]

This is simply untrue.  There are Outworlds systems, like Dante, that have never had an HPG due to the influence of the Omniss and their Luddite beliefs.  Despite being “dark” to FTL communications for centuries, those worlds have never been lost.

Yes, you will find a number of worlds that are the exception to the 'rule', mainly to drive the plotpoint that the world is different or unique. Yet, the Outworlds Waste are just that 'wastes', they may or may not continue to harbor those old colonies? However, those worlds are essentially lost. Why, because to remain on the BT map; your world must either have an HPG or be visited by JS. If not, off the map with you. Now your world is alone in the dark, come what may. Those old worlds no longer show on the map. Lost.

It’s called the Outworlds Wastes.  The Outback belongs to the Federated Suns.

Yes, it does, you got me. I was not technically correct in naming the region. I sometimes refer to the Periphery  border region as the 'outback'. Thus the Outworlds Outback, should read: Outworlds Wastes. Referring to their lost outer colonies.

BT is not based on the British Empire or Age of Sail.  Its setting is based on the feudal power structures that arose in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.  Those feudal power structures functioned fine before the advent of the HPG network, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t continue to function after its loss.

BT is based on many psuedo-historical, genre and sci-fi settings. I was responding to Colts apt historical analogy, It made for a good reference. I have already made my case for the importance of the HPG, so I won't repeat again. Agree to disagree.

[Thunderbolt]

especially since by now pretty much everyone has access to the Black Box systems to some degree, allowing at least some long distance coordination of their military forces and major government centers at speeds faster than that of jumpship.

enough to preclude any possibility something has actually already been happening these past 20 game years, across the IS or significant regions thereof, and no one has yet heard anything because of the black out?

[Dubble_g]

I must admit, while I'm all in favor of people engaging with BattleTech in whatever way excites them, whether that's fiction, as an RPG or as a tabletop wargame, it's a little disappointing to see discussions like this degenerate into Thermian arguments (after the Thermians in Galaxy Quest, who don't understand the concept of fiction) about the "lore". The lore exists to support game development, not dictate it. Everything in BattleTech (or Star Wars, or Warhammer, or the Elder Scrolls) exists because some real-world human being decided to make it that way.

While I'm here, a couple of people used Dune as an analogy, and I'd like to use it as an example for another purpose: Dune has a completed, static storyline which is never going to advance further (unless Brian Herbert gets really desperate for cash). Does this demotivate you from playing a wargame, video game or roleplaying game set in the Dune universe? 

[victor_shaw]

I must admit, while I'm all in favor of people engaging with BattleTech in whatever way excites them, whether that's fiction, as an RPG or as a tabletop wargame, it's a little disappointing to see discussions like this degenerate into Thermian arguments (after the Thermians in Galaxy Quest, who don't understand the concept of fiction) about the "lore". The lore exists to support game development, not dictate it. Everything in BattleTech (or Star Wars, or Warhammer, or the Elder Scrolls) exists because some real-world human being decided to make it that way.

While I'm here, a couple of people used Dune as an analogy, and I'd like to use it as an example for another purpose: Dune has a completed, static storyline which is never going to advance further (unless Brian Herbert gets really desperate for cash). Does this demotivate you from playing a wargame, video game or roleplaying game set in the Dune universe?

This happens due to the same issues with going against established lore, that is plaguing a movie that will not be named in the Star Wars canon.
You are correct that lore is what the writes write it to be, but once said lore is in the open (published) changing it on a whim become hard, and in some fans eyes sacrilege.
With out a logical answer to why the lore was wrong and needed to be changed the story starts to fall apart, as nothing can be taken a canon anymore and (like star trek) the canon can change with each writing. This leave you with a disjointed story that is hard to follow and destroys the average readers suspension of disbelief.
example: If you establish in the lore that HPGs are essential to interstellar control and economics, then remove the HPG network with little or no loss of interstellar control and economics then why was it needed in the first place? This contradicts the establish canon adding nothing to the story, yet undermining the lore for no other reason then "we wanted a blackout", Why is fuel now important in Star Wars when it has never been so before, "we needed a ticking clock", etc.

[Greatclub]

Dune doesn't use HPGs, their Heighliners don't have as long recharge times as BT, and seem not to have much range limitations either.

It's the combination of anemic space travel and lack of FTL coms that should've doomed the inner sphere, unless they managed to produce a lot of jumpships during the peace.

[Colt Ward]

If you establish in the lore that HPGs are essential to interstellar control and economics, then remove the HPG network with little or no loss of interstellar control and economics then why was it needed in the first place? This contradicts the establish canon adding nothing to the story, yet undermining the lore for no other reason then "we wanted a blackout" . . .

it . . . did . . . happen.

When the HPGs went down is when the factions in the Republic surfaced- 3 Clan (Wolf, Cat, Horse), 5 House (Liao never really went away), power seeking wannabe king (Bannson), rogue militants (Highlanders), and more marginals as listed in ER Dark Ages.  Its when the laws and customs established by Stone across the Inner Sphere fell- Irian secretly restarted a battlemech production line (Marauder IIs) which was a early story point, neighboring worlds in the Republic raided each other (Patriot's Stand), individuals tried to build power bases (Patriot's Stand & Bannson), Falcons established new Clusters and planned a offensive, Liao pulled mechs/tanks/BA from their magical warehouses, Davion started trying to fortify the CapCon border, and Marik-Stewart Commonwealth started to re-arm worried about the Lyrans.  As time went on, Republic worlds formed new polities and alliances (Thad Marik's planning) even before the Fortress went online.  Vincent Kurita supposedly lost control of the warlord on his Republic border- which I actually believe considering his fate.  Victor SD's funeral arrangements taking so long to gather the leaders of the Inner Sphere.  Later books deal with this as Jessica Halas-Marik sends out her children on year long diplomatic missions.  How her daughter discusses long term diplomatic planning when she visits a world on her way to Victor's funeral and gets the timing right to include several other planet ruling nobles.  How Julia working on concert with the Foxes & Cats to build the Clan Protectorate under her nose.  Lester Cameron-Jones angst about when he found out Anson Marik died and how he would have problems trying to gain control of what remained of the MSC.

Economies crashed as I cited earlier- Call to Arms deals with it in the opening chapters, Melissa Steiner's investment in ComStar gets discussed when the Crusader Wolves turn, IIRC Fortress Republic where Conner Rhys-Monroe has to cross a parking lot to his armored vehicle convoy since the area surrounding ComStar offices are economically depressed . . . the economic boom among mercenaries

MWDA novels dealt with the chaos and ER Dark Ages absolutely did since it listed other splinter groups that we never heard specifics about in MWDA novels.  Heck, the Sea Fox MWDA novel deals with it a LOT since its a central aspect to the Clan's life.  Less of the economic impacts were dealt with by BT sourcebooks . . . BUT to be fair, Battletech has always given short shift to the economics of the universe- its why we have FASAnomics as a joke.

[Kidd]

...
The lore exists to support game development, not dictate it.
...
Dune has a completed, static storyline which is never going to advance further (unless Brian Herbert gets really desperate for cash). Does this demotivate you from playing a wargame, video game or roleplaying game set in the Dune universe?

Frankly, yes.

What development? This train is still moving at a snail's pace. Battletech isn't a live universe. It's an unresolved universe, or at best, a universe resolving eeextrrreeeemeeely sloooowwwlllyyy. And people's attention just wandered while waiting for the next stop.

Your categorisation of fans into, basically, gameplay-driven and story-driven was accurate. But rather than being absolutes, they exist in continuum with overlap - there are tabletop players who are more story-driven, and less story-driven. And there are story-driven fans who play the game more, or play the game less.

Hence, dissatisfaction with the story element of the universe, doesn't drive away "just" story-driven fans. It affects tabletop players too. And pushing out starterboxes and minis doesn't fully alleviate the dissatisfaction of those players with the unresolved storyline.

[Daemion]

It's not an analogy, just saying there are certain thematic similarities as described.

Dune doesn't use HPGs, their Heighliners don't have as long recharge times as BT, and seem not to have much range limitations either.

Also Dune communications pretty much move at the speed of plot.

They're also huge, too, aren't they? Or is my memory of what's seen in the movie only applicable to the movie?

[Daemion]

While I'm here, a couple of people used Dune as an analogy, and I'd like to use it as an example for another purpose: Dune has a completed, static storyline which is never going to advance further (unless Brian Herbert gets really desperate for cash). Does this demotivate you from playing a wargame, video game or roleplaying game set in the Dune universe?

Ah, yes. The Dune board game. Risk without the dice rolls. I play it more as a curiosity, but the stagnation doesn't deter me. It's like a lot of other stagnant or dead franchises.  I'll dabble.  Not deterred. But, perpetual storyline that keeps moving does help bring me back if they add something new.  Doesn't have to be the case, since in RPG or linked battle campaigns, if I love something enough, I can keep coming back all on my own.  Dune isn't one of those.

[Kidd]

They're also huge, too, aren't they? Or is my memory of what's seen in the movie only applicable to the movie?

Guild Heighliners are supposed to be the biggest ships around, and are reputed to be as comparable to non-spacefolding Dune spaceships as Battletech Potemkins are to dropships...

...IF Potemkins enclosed Dropships within their cargo holds, as opposed to merely piggybacking them.

That's how big Heighliners are.

[Daryk]

The Dune board game sounds more like Diplomacy than Risk...

[Dubble_g]

Your categorisation of fans into, basically, gameplay-driven and story-driven was accurate. But rather than being absolutes, they exist in continuum with overlap - there are tabletop players who are more story-driven, and less story-driven. And there are story-driven fans who play the game more, or play the game less.

Sure, it's more of a conceptual framework or thought experiment--and I think the distinction between RPGers and wargamers is significant--than an attempt to describe absolutes (which only a Sith deals in). The point being that what makes a good story and what makes a good RPG or wargame are fundamentally different. BattleTech is a mashup of several entertainment genres which have fundamentally different needs.

Virtually all the best RPG adventures or modules I've ever encountered have been very unstructured and free-form. Otherwise you railroad players into actions they don't want to take. Any story is emergent from the gameplay. That's pretty much 180 degrees away from what makes good fiction--structure, coherence, cohesion, all that good stuff.

Pure wargames, on the other hand, depend on fairness and balance, which goes directly against the need for player-centricity in RPGs. On the other hand, the grand, galaxy-wide story might be used for context or background, but the number and types of scenarios you can play is in no way dependent upon the evolution of the storyline.

Dune or say Lord of the Rings are just examples of properties with static, completed stories, where nevertheless a neverending deluge of boardgames, video games, RPGs and whatever have been produced, because, going back to my original point, if you're an RPGer or a wargamer, a static storyline is no barrier to enjoyment. Because those game genres need fundamentally different things than fictional stories do.

TL;DR

• People interact with BT in different ways
• Those ways have fundamentally basic needs
• Accordingly you'll find people who want fundamentally different things from the property
• Getting mad at them for wanting different things is pointless, for reasons 1 and 2, above

[Kidd]

Well then you are lost!

[SteveRestless]

Interesting. The split's a lot closer than I had expected. I'd have bet 90/10 or 80/20 not 60/40-ish.

[skiltao]

it's a little disappointing to see discussions like this degenerate into Thermian arguments (after the Thermians in Galaxy Quest, who don't understand the concept of fiction) about the "lore". The lore exists to support game development, not dictate it.

to be fair, Battletech has always given short shift to the economics of the universe- its why we have FASAnomics as a joke.

I'm continuously surprised by how things that are normally regarded as "lore" - like the economics of the Suns' 26 administrative districts becoming Archonettes - turn out to be thinly veiled game development.

from what I recall out of the source books, that the Hegemony spread out different aspects of Mech Manufacture, and the houses did nothing to really change it when they took over hegemony territories.

Manufacture of war material was pretty thoroughly reorganized during the First and Second Succession wars.

Sorry, for the late reply.

No worries. Apologies for mine.

You and I are reading the same words, and reaching different conclusions. However, I took my old books, NAIS 4SW Mil. Vol. Atlas I/II and 20 Year Update, out of their protective plastics and took a look again just to make sure.

We may be talking past each other. And sorry to make you risk the binding on those books. I know mine aren't holding up the best.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the quick economic recovery something I never suggested?
<snip>
Again, here it clearly states the main cause of the economic down-turn was due to the lack of HPG support, because the Davion merchant marine (mm), with assistance from their Lyran counterpart was not able to take up the slack (not enough JS); thus the NEED for an HPG network of some type.
<snip>
NAIS 4SW Mil. Atlas Vol. II, makes very clear (repeatedly) the Davion economy was breaking under the strain of the Interdiction.

You're making two separate claims. First, you're claiming that the economic disruptions show that a fast communication network is necessary - if the economic disruptions were to end once the HPGs came back up, that would show that the loss of HPG speed really was at fault. But since the disruptions lingered, the economic damage seems to be due to knock-on effects rather than anything specific to HPGs.

Second, you appear to be claiming that a nation with more JumpShips than the Suns had in the 4thSW, and with a bigger fraction devoted to civilian shipping than in the 4thSW, would not be able to exceed the Suns' level of civilian shipping.

I'm not claiming that the planets were happy in the 4thSW, or that there wasn't economic damage; and I agree that military fatigue and civil revolts would be of increasing concern if Hanse continued to war. But the level of civilian shipping the Suns had in the 4thSW was an all-time low, unmatched before or since - you can't make that your ceiling for how nations in other times would perform.

there is mention of no less than ten (10) Command Circuits used by the AFFS to continue the war effort, which is a substantial amount.

Still only a fraction of the total war effort, and could be accommodated by reducing the size of the war proportionately. Also, my understanding was five (5) circuits, consisting of Scout JumpShips and maybe the AFFS's reserve ships, though I'm unclear as to whether that includes pre-existing circuits to Kittery or elsewhere. How are you counting ten?