Author Topic: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?  (Read 3268 times)

BATTLEMASTER

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Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« on: 09 August 2021, 12:49:40 »
I got thinking about this while re-reading Master Arminas' awesome fanfic "The Seeker", which goes into detail about a Clan Goliath Scorpion cyberattack on a Word of Blake mainframe in the Circinus Federation (detailed here:  https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/the-seeker/msg532599/#msg532599).

While fan fiction, I can see this playing out throughout the Clan Invasion.  While technicians and scientists are depicted in the story as carrying out the attack, it got me thinking:  Would it be the responsibility of warriors to use computers as weapons in cyberwarfare?  Or would they just have to supervise as depicted in this story?  Who would get the glory of this deed?  Would anyone get any glory?
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rebs

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #1 on: 09 August 2021, 12:52:44 »
If you hack for your Clan Watch you are probably a warrior.  Most likely.  You could be a tech or a scientist, too, but in that case, you are most likely.attached to the Watch still.

Edit; since the Watch is largely clandestine, honor and glory are in the eyes of your peers and khans.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2021, 12:56:41 by rebs »
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nova_dew

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #2 on: 09 August 2021, 12:57:19 »
I think it would/could be any cast, if they can do it, the watch will use them, but it would be Watch business through and through, the honour for a success... do we know canonically how watch operations deal with honour for doing their ops? I suspect it will go to the one who did the deed and honour also going to the team, if any, for the complete op 
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #3 on: 09 August 2021, 13:28:15 »
I think you have to check your honor at the door when you join or are invited into the Watch.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #4 on: 09 August 2021, 13:44:06 »
What about cyberwarfare that isn't part of the Watch?  I'm guessing it must be a thing that's not limited to just intelligence just as real-life military arms have cyberwarfare units.
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rebs

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #5 on: 09 August 2021, 13:52:48 »
What about cyberwarfare that isn't part of the Watch?  I'm guessing it must be a thing that's not limited to just intelligence just as real-life military arms have cyberwarfare units.

I'm not so sure about how "real" warriors would receive that.  Maybe the same way they regard infantry and tankers.  Someone who is a warrior yet isn't. Half a warrior.
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Jellico

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #6 on: 09 August 2021, 14:02:15 »
Warriors would be supervisors. Very little in their training would prepare them for the tech work. You would hope the Warriors would have the tactical nouse to know how to use cyberwarfare, but in many cases I doubt it.
Merchants on the other hand...

Alan Grant

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #7 on: 09 August 2021, 15:23:55 »
Could be warriors but I doubt it.

Think about it like the crews of warships. Dominated by tech caste, officers are warrior caste.

Would be akin to that I think. Clan Watch most likely for most typical cyberwarfare stuff.

Another comparison worth considering are combat engineers. They are techs, even though they are on a kinetic battlefield where the LRMs are flying hauling sachel charges and mineclearing gear and the like. There could be a variation of that for battlefield cyberwarfare. Techs attached to touman combat units as part of their support apparatus.

Could a few specialized warriors find their way there? Perhaps. We've seen some unusual warriors, very intelligent, very clever, end up in the Clan Watch who are excellent Intelligence Officers. A few of those might end up here as a focus of their Clan Watch career. But the majority would be techs, I think.

The average warrior would probably scoff at even calling the thing "warfare", I feel like they'd be inclined to attach other tech-caste associated terms to these activities.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2021, 15:27:27 by Alan Grant »

nova_dew

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #8 on: 09 August 2021, 16:21:30 »
What about cyberwarfare that isn't part of the Watch?  I'm guessing it must be a thing that's not limited to just intelligence just as real-life military arms have cyberwarfare units.

I don't think there is any non-watch cyberwarfare at least amongst the clans, a battlefield hack to open a door to let forces in isn't cyberwarfare it's just hacking and chances are any force sent in to do it would be a part of the watch anyway, well if you want it done all sneaky like. cyberwarfare as it is now couldn't exist in the BT universe, there's no sphere wide near real time network to use, it would be like how it was back in the early dial up days, slow and hoping your target is online when you are, if the HPG's were all working and the HPG was your target you could maybe get a worm or something into the HPG to get it to send you C*'s or WoB cypher key's but i think that's about it there, You could do exfiltration of data from a corp/Gov facility, but you'd have to be on planet and then you'd want to get that data onto a HPG or a jumpship and unless you want to wreck the place you'd be using your watch operatives to do it quietly.

TL:DR BattleTech is still in many ways in the 80's, the clans are still very much in the late 30's early 40's, you might as well call the Watch "Ministry of Ungentlemanlyclanly Warfare", the top brass know they need them, why they need them, and know they should thank them, but it's underhanded and just not cricket!
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rebs

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #9 on: 09 August 2021, 16:25:59 »
I could see the Sea Foxes using cyberwarfare liberally.  But again, it would be pretty strictly.for the Watch.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #10 on: 09 August 2021, 20:43:11 »
I got thinking about this while re-reading Master Arminas' awesome fanfic "The Seeker", which goes into detail about a Clan Goliath Scorpion cyberattack on a Word of Blake mainframe in the Circinus Federation (detailed here:  https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/the-seeker/msg532599/#msg532599).

While fan fiction, I can see this playing out throughout the Clan Invasion.  While technicians and scientists are depicted in the story as carrying out the attack, it got me thinking:  Would it be the responsibility of warriors to use computers as weapons in cyberwarfare?  Or would they just have to supervise as depicted in this story?  Who would get the glory of this deed?  Would anyone get any glory?

It's not a warrior's role to do more than pull the trigger-or in this case, to authorize and oversee.  The specialty skills and mindset for hacking are not like other forms of conflict, you might as well be asking if it's a warrior's job to print up counterfiet currency to destabilize an enemy's economy (Economic Warfare).
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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #11 on: 09 August 2021, 22:11:27 »
To me Warriors would be like managers/officers.  The Technician has the ability to get into the enemy computer system, but the Warrior would decide if the technician should do so.

The Warrior's other job is to make sure the Bus Factor for their team is as high as practical.  If someone new is brought in, the new person is trained on whichever skills the group needs, and also expected to gather extra training where possible.

The Warrior would also be responsible for protecting their team from people who don't understand them:
"Warrior Karth, according to the Scientist caste who was just here, nobody on your team has been tested for illegal drugs in the past four years.  Explain."

"Star Captain, if my Technicians were tested, it would only show two things.  First is that they do not use the drugs.  Second is that their personality quirks are normal for them.  Do you remember two months ago when I awarded them a dress-up day where they could wear whatever they wanted, as long as it did not interfere with their work, quiaff?  It was amazing how many different outfits technically do not interfere with an individual's work on a computer"

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DOC_Agren

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #12 on: 24 August 2021, 17:37:35 »
and suddenly I see Warrior Karth's staff on dressup day..   and he knows how to use his people effectively, I like him..  good thing he in the Watch

Super effective but so non-clanish...

and depending on what level of drug testing, some of those stimulants might test postive for drugs for the long periods of "work"
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SlightlyIrritatedCat

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #13 on: 24 August 2021, 18:36:31 »
It's not a warrior's role to do more than pull the trigger-or in this case, to authorize and oversee.  The specialty skills and mindset for hacking are not like other forms of conflict, you might as well be asking if it's a warrior's job to print up counterfiet currency to destabilize an enemy's economy (Economic Warfare).
Agreed warrior caste members would be in charge of the operation, they would give the final go-nogo.  But the actual cyberwarfare would be done by technicians most likely, scientists are a bit research oriented for cyberwarfare as I see them.  They might develop some of the tools or models of expected possible exploits of a particular hardware/software system.  But it's the technicians who are likely the ones doing the actual cyberwarfare, even if the tools might have been developed by scientists for them.

Also:  Honor flew away on a little bird when you chose this life.  You are not the sword and shield, you are the garrote in the dark.  There is no glory for you or I, if we succeed no one will ever know, if we fail no one will ever know, for we do not exist and our names have already been forgotten.

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #14 on: 06 September 2021, 22:52:53 »
I would think hacking was very rare skill in Clans.  (future of the 80s sort thing.) I would think it was tech/scientist caste task to do.  Not a Warrior.
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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #15 on: 07 September 2021, 17:29:45 »
I would think hacking was very rare skill in Clans.  (future of the 80s sort thing.) I would think it was tech/scientist caste task to do.  Not a Warrior.

I could see hacking as a necessary Dark Caste skill as they are trying to get information on where Clan raids will be, where Clan supplies are located, etc.

The Clans have to defend themselves against that sort of 'attack', so have their own team organization:
Warriors: in charge of the operation
Scientist: detailed computer programmers/forensic analysts, who create new programs for the technicians to use and automated systems to monitor their networks, while performing detailed breakdown on whatever the Technicians find and aren't able to identify
Technician: uses the computer programs and tools that the Scientists have developed to make sure the Clan computer networks are secure, along with tracing any connections back to see where the hack originated.


The problem is when senior Warriors wonder if the Computer security personnel are worth their resources and start to openly question the need for the group:

Star Colonel: "Your technical team has not spotted any attacks against our computer networks in the past two months.  Is your team still necessary?"
Star Captain: "Are you saying that my team should only be allocated their resources when a Dark Caste attacker is attacking, quineg?  Or does my team have to demonstrate what might happen if they were not standing guard over our computer systems?"
Star Colonel: "Ah, neg."
Star Captain: "Think of it this way.  In a Mech duel the winner will come back with most of their armor remaining.  Was that armor a waste since it was not used?"


Basically the Warrior in charge has to balance the complaints of:
"Everything is working fine, why did we allocate these resources to you?" and "Nothing is working, why did we allocate these resources to you?"

AlphaMirage

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Re: Clan Cyberwarfare - Are Hackers Warriors?
« Reply #16 on: 07 September 2021, 18:28:16 »
I doubt they truly care enough for cybersecurity the whole culture is built on a certain incredible openness and trust that any attack that would subvert that expectation would be both uncommon and seen as truly vile. Additionally most of the sensitive data is not on the chatterweb and would require physical access (hello Shadowrun). Dark caste can probably figure out everything they need through contacts with the right clearances rather than hacking into a mainframe within the HPG compound