Do we need a Light AC/10?

[Colt Ward]

Just as a rough work up . . .

8 tons, 4 crits, 3/6/9 range . . .

Is this something that would give you tactical options in a game, or a waste?

[Hellraiser]

Other than the range should be 4-8-12, those stats look right on to me.

And yes, I think it would be a viable addition to the game.

[Daryk]

While it competes with the PPC better than a regular AC/10, the shorter range really kills it.  Hellraiser has it right that 4/8/12 would make it more viable.

[Colt Ward]

I did not see a formula for how they stepped down the range, I just copied the LAC/5's drop to the next larger gun's range brackets.  It would compete, IMO with the PAC/8.

[Maingunnery]

I did not see a formula for how they stepped down the range, I just copied the LAC/5's drop to the next larger gun's range brackets.  It would compete, IMO with the PAC/8.

Reduce the short range by 1 hex and then recalculate the medium (x2) and long (x3).

An LAC/20 would be 2/4/6.

[Daryk]

The LAC/2 dropped short range by 2 though...

[Hellraiser]

Don't think of it as Gun Brackets or as Hex #s.

Look at the % it dropped.  And also account for both of them loosing their minimums to make them more accurate at short range.


24 to 18 was a 25% drop  (And a loss of Min-4)

18 to 15 was a 17% Drop (And a loss of Min-3)


Going from 15 to 9 is a 40% Drop & no Min improvement, so its far too large a penalty.

Going from 15 to 12 is a 20% Drop and also no Min so its arguably still too painful, but its close enough to be balanced.


Ditto the tonnage drop,  many people say the smaller AC's were only 2-3 tons so why should the AC10/20 get 4/5 tons respectively.

Look at the % savings & then dropping 4 tons or 33% makes a lot of sense.


I see the 10 as Colt has it but at 4-8-12 to make it about balance with the other 2 for improvements, still a tad worse over all in range % dropped w/o having had Min issues.

The AC20 would be 2-4-6 to match the MPL as mentioned.  And weigh in at 9 tons.   A very heavy weapon for range 6.  But still a possible option on something like a Blitzkrieg.

[UnLimiTeD]

Whether it's worth the drawbacks is in the weapon itself.
I do believe they did indeed just take the range of the next larger gun.
And while I don't have any particular preference there, 12 range would make the light 5 rather obsolete if it weighted less than 8.
Thing is, if we have a light 10, shouldn't we also have an RAC/10?  :D
That would probably be OP on ASF, though.

[kaliban]

a LAC-5 is a 1/2 of a AC/10 (half damage, half weight, same range)

a LAC-10 should be a 1/2 of a AC/20. So, 7ton, 10 dmg for 7 tons, 3/6/9 range and 10 shots per ton (3 heat?).

Maybe an "AC/1" for 3 tons (1/2 of a AC/2) should be more interesting as an AA weapon

[Hellraiser]

I do believe they did indeed just take the range of the next larger gun.
And while I don't have any particular preference there, 12 range would make the light 5 rather obsolete if it weighted less than 8.
Thing is, if we have a light 10, shouldn't we also have an RAC/10?  :D
That would probably be OP on ASF, though.

They didn't.
The LACs might have the MAX range of the Next Larger Gun but its clear the LAC2 does not have the Min-3 of the AC5 or its original Min-4
Heck, the LAC5 could be argued to have BETTER range brackets than the AC5.
Sure it lost 3 max but it also lost 3 Min too so its a net wash.

The AC10 pretty much makes the AC5 obsolete in terms of Range/Damage/Heat.
So I see no reason that the LAC-10 wouldn't also.  And at 8 Tons its still 60% Heavier than the LAC-5 which is worse than the 50% Heavier that the AC10 is to the AC5


I'd be fine w/ a RAC/10. 
Given how much larger the AC5/2 got, the 10 would be looking at 15-16 tons & if the Ultra-10 at Heat 4 is any indication you would be averaging 24 heat when you 6 shot it.
LOL.
So much for AC's being the "Low Heat" option.

Still, a 12 hex RAC/10 v/s a 22 Hex Gauss Rifle is an interesting design choice option.

[Sabelkatten]

Balance-wise (which should be the primary consideration, thought it unfortunately almost never is in CBT) a 3/6/9 LAC/10 looks best at 7 tons/2 heat. A 4/8/12 LAC/10 should probably be 9 tons/3 heat.

I can explain the logic to anyone who wants to suffer a bunch of math.

[Hellraiser]

Why would it loose heat when the other's don't?

I think the only AC to loose heat is the LBX model.

The Ultra's go up.

[The_Caveman]

A 4/8/12 LAC/10 would obsolete not just the regular AC/5 but the regular AC/10 as well. At 7-8 tons a pair of them would be very nearly better than an AC/20.

Put me down for 3/6/9.

[Sabelkatten]

Why would it loose heat when the other's don't?

I think the only AC to loose heat is the LBX model.

The Ultra's go up.

Realistically, it makes sense (less propellant = less heat) and balance-wise it works out better. But 6 tons/3 heat wouldn't really make it unbalanced either.

A 4/8/12 LAC/10 would obsolete not just the regular AC/5 but the regular AC/10 as well. At 7-8 tons a pair of them would be very nearly better than an AC/20.

Put me down for 3/6/9.

That's why I put it at 9 tons. An AC/10 can never really compete with an AC/20 since the whole point of the latter is the large damage cluster - you'll need 8 AC/10s to be certain you'll put 20 points into one location on a mech. ;)

[mmmpi]

I personally don't see it as less propellant.  It's still firing normal AC rounds, just the barrel is shorter.  The shorter range is due to that.  (IMO)

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Pretty much. Barrel length and recoil compensation have both been reduced, hence the decrease in range.

I always thought the brackets would be 3/6/9 myself. The trend I noticed is that it just takes the range brackets of the next heavier class, minus min ranges. The weight is a third less(6 down to 4, 8 down to 5), so 8T.

[Sabelkatten]

8 tons for a 3/6/9 LAC/10 is ridiculously overweight. It's AC/5 bad, heck, it's worse than the AC/5!

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Probably why the devs never introduced it. The algorithm was breaking down.

[Sabelkatten]

As far as I can figure there has never been any calculations done when new equipment is introduced. If there was things should have been at least somewhat balanced.

[Hellraiser]

A 4/8/12 LAC/10 would obsolete not just the regular AC/5 but the regular AC/10 as well. At 7-8 tons a pair of them would be very nearly better than an AC/20.

Put me down for 3/6/9.

Because the LAC5 didn't make the AC5 obsolete?

[Hellraiser]

As far as I can figure there has never been any calculations done when new equipment is introduced. If there was things should have been at least somewhat balanced.

Because BV is the great equalizer.

Things with all the best toys also pay for them & must now face nasty odds against "lesser" mechs.

[Maingunnery]

I would prefer the heavier 4/8/12 LAC/10 because it would work well alongside ERMLs.

[Sabelkatten]

To be honest I'd love to have both - in 3025. 3/6/9 6 tons would provide a "big gun" you could put alongside a few MLs or SRMs on a 30-40 ton mech without sacrificing too much. 4/8/12 9 tons lets you reach out past normal short range but still leaves some weight for other stuff on a fast mech.

[Daryk]

At six tons on a lighter 'mech, you might as well go for a PPC (since the ammo will make the weapon at least seven).  I'm all for a nine ton, 4/8/12 version, though...

[Sabelkatten]

Doesn't really work with a PPC. All that heat... I've got an old house-rule design that mounted 2 MLs and what was essentially a 3/6/9 LAC/10. That would be 9 tons with the above proposal, doable on a 30- or 35-ton mech.

[Sartris]

There’s an unofficial LAC/10 in megameklab that takes the 3/6/9 approach. Iirc MFUK had published a RAC/10. Did they finish the LAC series too?

[Suralin]

I'm already down for the 8-ton, 4/8/12 version.

[Col Toda]

Quick answer is NO . Want a lighter AC 10 or AC 20 get the Sea Foxes to redevelop the lighter AC 10 and 20 the Clans had before developing Clan spec Ultra AC 10s and 20s. Already worked and stated out in Interstellar Operations.  .  The light ac 5 and 2 are nice because both eliminate minimum range .

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Quick answer is NO . Want a lighter AC 10 or AC 20 get the Sea Foxes to redevelop the lighter AC 10 and 20 the Clans had before developing Clan spec Ultra AC 10s and 20s

Weren't those the LB-X?

[Colt Ward]

He is talking about the Clan spec regular AC/10, which is a crit less and weights something less.  But its not going to weigh as much less as the Light series does Toda.  If I wanted to go with a Clan answer, I would say you could use the PAC series since the 8 gets pretty close.