Abusing Zellbringen.

[Auman]

What are some of the more creative ways of offending Clan sensibilities? I fully intend to trick my Clanbro into fighting a batchall against a C3 equipped Atlas next game day... It'll be in tue context of a campaign and it will only work once, but I will fully bring the pain if he falls for it.

[TigerShark]

The only real "abuses" of Zellbrigen which would have any effect in the post-3050 world would be during the initial invasion. That was the only time the Clans seemed unable to deal with combined-fire tactics from the Spheroids and even that was mostly due to the "all 'Mech" military doctrine of the day.

[JPArbiter]

Transmit an open challenge to a Clan opponent and begin bidding away weaponry.

have a fast lighter machine openly challenge a clan assault.

declare a trial of possession mid battle and try to stackpole your reactor in a group hug.

[Ian Sharpe]

Truthfully, its less abusing zellbrigen than doing things it doesn't account for that's more effective.  Using vehicles, artillery or infantry(none of which are protected under zellbrigen, but none of which must abide by dueling either) is a good start.  Mines are excellent.  All of those are legal tactics against the Clans that no Clan player should gripe about.  Zellbrigen only accounts for Mechs, battle armour and ASFs. 

I've had IS players tell me that they advance unchallenged Mechs to start in short range or side/rear arcs of challenged Clan mechs(personally, I view that as a breach).   Challenging Dire Wolves in Spiders shouldn't work; that's a challenge that can be outright rejected by the assault pilot(and is the specific example used in past publications).  Clanners aren't stupid, after all, merely upfront and direct about their military objectives.  Personally, if you were playing games, I'd just call in my cutdown. 

[Iron Mongoose]

As Ian points out, a lot of 'abuses' of zellbrigen can be avoided, mitigated, or curcumvented if you actualy know all the rules in question, and if you're not using level 1 honor rules that don't permit you to deviate from zell ever.

As far as I recall, a more powerful mech may actualy challange several opponents (this is pretty much always going to be the case for any Clan mech fighting against the IS) or else oughtright refuse unworthy challanges.  Any mech can just chouse to take a pot shot at infantry or armor at will.

The main abuse is using unengaged mechs to take up your early moves and thus gain an innitive advantage, since the advantage of winning int is strongly mangnified under zell.  If someone tries to move their mechs up as suggested, they can be challanged, but if someone takes a few extra infantry platoons and hides them behind a hill, there's no real work around for that other than to use the someone OOC mechanic as an excuse to start a melee or just ask your opponent to use better sportsmanship.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I like luring enemies who're less mobile than my mech into areas that further hamper their mobility, like using a jumper against a non jumper and heading for the hills.

[willydstyle]

Post-invasion, pretty much any occupying clan can pretty much ignore Zellbrigen when fighting the spheroids anyways.

[Auman]

My plan is to convince my friend that I will abide by the challenge with great honor... Lure his commander into the open and then nail it with everything I have networked into that C3 network. Is that fine? :3

[Stormfury]

No, and you've just blatantly violated your bid for the battle to boot. This will Not End Well.

Post-invasion, pretty much any occupying clan can pretty much ignore Zellbrigen when fighting the spheroids anyways.

The Ghost Bears specifically abandoned Zellbrigen, but then had to create Omega Galaxy, so how well the idea stuck appears to be a bit up in the air. The Jade Falcons, despite talking a big game with Zellbrigen/Nathaculor combat have always been perfectly willing to throw it to the winds the second it suits them, whilst simultaneously griping about any minor deviations from duelling sensibilities undertaken by their opponents. The Wolves abided by Zellbrigen only as much as their opponent was willing to run a fair fight. The Jaguars, particularly after Wolcott, were not known for being friendly towards their opponent. The Steel Vipers arrived with the Maw and Coil (IIRC the encircling one was called the Coil, any way) which were not single combat tactics and were extensively used even in the Homeworlds. Dunno much about the Nova Cats, but the idea of the Clans clinging limpet-like to Zellbrigen code against Spheroid opponents isn't looking good.

Personally, I think that if you are expecting your opponent to allow you to have free reign in combat and believe that they should abide by arbitrary rules you are deliberately gaming to try and gain an unfair advantage a rude awakening is more than warranted in return.

[willydstyle]

You don't even need to know the fluff very well to know that the IS clans mostly gave up Zellbrigen against the IS: it's written pretty clearly in the Total Warfare description of Zellbrigen. 

[cold1]

My plan is to convince my friend that I will abide by the challenge with great honor... Lure his commander into the open and then nail it with everything I have networked into that C3 network. Is that fine? :3

Then he can bring in his cut down force and ignore zell for the rest of the battle.  If you go through the entire process including the bid he will have reserves.  If he's smart he will bid out that star of Nagas first to show how he does not need artillery and then when you break zell he can wipe you off the map with 10 Arrow IV batteries... it's what I'd do, keeps spheroids honest.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Post-invasion, pretty much any occupying clan can pretty much ignore Zellbrigen when fighting the spheroids anyways.

There's some units that are highly regarded enough to get bids, challenges and such, though.

[Stormfury]

Even in such circumstances the Clans will only extend as much courtesy in return as they are given. And taking advantage of that trust to go in planning major breaches of etiquette like that is a good way to get such considerations as do exist revoked.

[Auman]

Then he can bring in his cut down force and ignore zell for the rest of the battle.  If you go through the entire process including the bid he will have reserves.  If he's smart he will bid out that star of Nagas first to show how he does not need artillery and then when you break zell he can wipe you off the map with 10 Arrow IV batteries... it's what I'd do, keeps spheroids honest.

Ah, but there's more to the story than first appears, my friend... We're running a storied campaign and the Trueborn being challenged is specifically responsible for killing the daughter of my mercenary commander, Colonel Frank Betruger. While the reserves coming on down would start a serious fight, annihilating the enemy and repaying a personal vendetta is exactly what the entire battle is about. It is supposed to be a terrible bloodbath that kills a number of named characters in a brutal fashion.

But what I'm looking for is ways to grind salt into the enemy's wounds and and do everything in my power to make this campaign able to fiil a swimming pool with bad blood.

[Stormfury]

Well... congratulations, I guess? Because killing the Wolf commander in such a fashion is garuanteed to bring at least the rest of the Cluster, possibly the Galaxy if present, and WarShip. DropShip, and ASF elements into play. And the swift, wholesale annihilation of the unit at their hands is the only reasonable outcome.

[verybad]

Zellbringen doesn't mean stupid. I'm sure clan warriors are quite capable of understanding when their rules of honor are being used against them, especially after the initial first battles and tales of trickery get back to them.

A clan response to a lighter mech challenging an assault could be "Aff, however, in order for you to have a chance against me, I muust first destroy several of your allies. I will fight the warrior in the Awesome, and then the warrior in the Warhammer. After I have humiliated them, I will destroy your primitive mech and take you as a bondsmen."

[foxbat]

As Ian points out, a lot of 'abuses' of zellbrigen can be avoided, mitigated, or curcumvented if you actualy know all the rules in question, and if you're not using level 1 honor rules that don't permit you to deviate from zell ever.

As far as I recall, a more powerful mech may actualy challange several opponents (this is pretty much always going to be the case for any Clan mech fighting against the IS) or else oughtright refuse unworthy challanges.  Any mech can just chouse to take a pot shot at infantry or armor at will.

The main abuse is using unengaged mechs to take up your early moves and thus gain an innitive advantage, since the advantage of winning int is strongly mangnified under zell.  If someone tries to move their mechs up as suggested, they can be challanged, but if someone takes a few extra infantry platoons and hides them behind a hill, there's no real work around for that other than to use the someone OOC mechanic as an excuse to start a melee or just ask your opponent to use better sportsmanship.

As I play it, if I am outnumbering my opponent in a zell game, I wait ill all my engaged units have been played to move my unengaged ones in order to avoid init-sinking. When a Clan force uses zell vs an IS one, this way should be observed... I'd be prone to allow players to make good tactical moves with their unengaged units.

[Kovax]

I quickly gave up on trying to enforce Zellbringen rules with the players in our group.

We had one guy who wouldn't play at all unless he had every advantage (the biggest Clan 'Mech with the best pilot in the group), and would regularly try to challenge "trivial" opponents who couldn't outrun him or even hope to compete: using a Madcat to challenging a Blackjack or Enforcer, rather than the Warhammer or Battlemaster nearby.  If possible, he'd take a Daishi and a 1/1 pilot, and then issue a challenge to something like a Rifleman or Jaegermech with a 4/5 pilot.  We got really sick of it.

Worst part is, he and a friend would "bid" as Clanners to take on an IS force, but neither of them would underbid the other, to the point where the Clanners often wanted to go in with both a tonnage advantage and Elite pilots against 3025 tech IS 'Mechs with regular pilots.  They counted on the fact that some of us didn't want to play Clan, so regardless of which of them got the bid, the other could still sit in on the game.  We eventually forced a rule where the Clanners had to allow at least a 25% tonnage advantage to the IS, which they made a joke out of by boosting their gunnery and piloting skills even further (we actually had to point out that the rules do NOT allow skills lower than 0).

In a way, I don't miss those game sessions, but in another way I do, because it was still a BT game against real opponents (no matter how unbalanced).

[Auman]

Actually, that's the whole point. This action is what is supposed to set up the plot and desperate fighting of the entire campaign. Colonel Betruger's daughter is killed in combat by a Clan Diamond Shark warrior during a previously well fought and relatively amicable trial of possession for my mercenary command's homeworld. My mech jocks are supposed to lose it, the mercenaries of the 13th tactical training regiment break down in terms of discipline and break every rule in the book to kill the individual mechwarrior responsible for this woman's death. After that it becomes an orgy of destruction. All the while, Major Jim Rutherford, commander of the Free Army of Platea is left to pick up the pieces. Tl;dr I'm trying to create the worst situation possible.

[willydstyle]

I quickly gave up on trying to enforce Zellbringen rules with the players in our group.

We had one guy who wouldn't play at all unless he had every advantage (the biggest Clan 'Mech with the best pilot in the group), and would regularly try to challenge "trivial" opponents who couldn't outrun him or even hope to compete: using a Madcat to challenging a Blackjack or Enforcer, rather than the Warhammer or Battlemaster nearby.  If possible, he'd take a Daishi and a 1/1 pilot, and then issue a challenge to something like a Rifleman or Jaegermech with a 4/5 pilot.  We got really sick of it.

Worst part is, he and a friend would "bid" as Clanners to take on an IS force, but neither of them would underbid the other, to the point where the Clanners often wanted to go in with both a tonnage advantage and Elite pilots against 3025 tech IS 'Mechs with regular pilots.  They counted on the fact that some of us didn't want to play Clan, so regardless of which of them got the bid, the other could still sit in on the game.  We eventually forced a rule where the Clanners had to allow at least a 25% tonnage advantage to the IS, which they made a joke out of by boosting their gunnery and piloting skills even further (we actually had to point out that the rules do NOT allow skills lower than 0).

In a way, I don't miss those game sessions, but in another way I do, because it was still a BT game against real opponents (no matter how unbalanced).

Have you met my friend Battle Value 2.0?

[Kovax]

Have you met my friend Battle Value 2.0?

At that time, it was still "Combat Value" (3050-3055 days), and they wouldn't use it, mainly because it was "fairer" despite how buggy it was.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Ah, but there's more to the story than first appears, my friend... We're running a storied campaign and the Trueborn being challenged is specifically responsible for killing the daughter of my mercenary commander, Colonel Frank Betruger. While the reserves coming on down would start a serious fight, annihilating the enemy and repaying a personal vendetta is exactly what the entire battle is about. It is supposed to be a terrible bloodbath that kills a number of named characters in a brutal fashion.

But what I'm looking for is ways to grind salt into the enemy's wounds and and do everything in my power to make this campaign able to fiil a swimming pool with bad blood.

None of the Clans bother with Zell when it comes to fighting mercenary groups, with a couple of exceptions.

[willydstyle]

None of the Clans bother with Zell when it comes to fighting mercenary groups, with a couple of exceptions.

Precisely because this stuff has happened before :D

[Isanova]

Could one declare a challenge and ask a circle of equals? Not something to blatantly abuse things, but to create an equal playing field? For example, a Flashman challenging a Warhawk-Prime to combat at 450 meters (15 hexes) ? Would a clanner be dishonored at refusing such a challenge factor?

[Auman]

I fluffed it up so that these guys are Bulldog veterans with a track record of honorable conduct on both sides. That bought them an exception in this case. Their nerves are shot now, though and it's supposed to be demonstrated quite spectacularly here.

[Col.Hengist]

In character...repaint all your forces to a premier IS unit like the 2nd Donegal Guard. Declare a trial for something they are guarding. Once you have maneuvered them into position declare who you really are,and what your real intentions are. Once you've killed the guy you beat feet back to your drop ships, covered by your ASF screen and weapons on your DS. That's Manga level epic drama right there. Load up on ecm's , C3,blue light shields,ax warheads,infernos,tandem warheads,the works... Beat those clanners like a boss.

[Auman]

The campaign is a trial of possession for their home planet of Platea Sojourn... So getting to the dropships won't fly. But I like where this is going.

[Stormfury]

Could one declare a challenge and ask a circle of equals? Not something to blatantly abuse things, but to create an equal playing field? For example, a Flashman challenging a Warhawk-Prime to combat at 450 meters (15 hexes) ? Would a clanner be dishonored at refusing such a challenge factor?

Challenged party selects mode of combat. So only if the Clan warrior agrees, and even then a Flashman has a minimal chance of success under such circumstances.

In character...repaint all your forces to a premier IS unit like the 2nd Donegal Guard. Declare a trial for something they are guarding. Once you have maneuvered them into position declare who you really are,and what your real intentions are. Once you've killed the guy you beat feet back to your drop ships, covered by your ASF screen and weapons on your DS. That's Manga level epic drama right there. Load up on ecm's , C3,blue light shields,ax warheads,infernos,tandem warheads,the works... Beat those clanners like a boss.

Mercenary unit.

Where are they getting all this tech? Even having company-level C3 as outlayed earlier is a stretch, never mind the amount of experimental technologies and ASF support posited. Mercs typically have trouble getting even half as many ASF as a House regular command, never mind getting their own DropShips.

Even then a Clan Cluster often has 30 or more fighters (especially the Sharks, who organise in 6-trinary/90-Point Clusters), and the Sharks whilst not as heavily invested in the naval scene as the Ravens or Cobras are far from lacking.

[Auman]

I have implied these mercenaries are WoB sympathizers else where. Also, previously good relations with Inner Sphere employers as well as decent salvage from Bulldog can explain some access to the good stuff.

[Iron Mongoose]

As I play it, if I am outnumbering my opponent in a zell game, I wait ill all my engaged units have been played to move my unengaged ones in order to avoid init-sinking. When a Clan force uses zell vs an IS one, this way should be observed... I'd be prone to allow players to make good tactical moves with their unengaged units.

It should be remembered Foxbat that you're a nice guy with a strong sense of fair play.  The same can't be said for everyone, in as much as we might all wish it.

[Isanova]

Challenged party selects mode of combat. So only if the Clan warrior agrees, and even then a Flashman has a minimal chance of success under such circumstances.

It's going to be hard of course, but them's the way the cookie crumbles. I'd rather engage one at my effective range than weather the fire from distance.

I thought choosing mode of combat only applied to the circle of equals? I doubt a clanner, even in a recon one-on-one encounter, would be willing to step out of his mech for unarmed combat... or agree to mech-scale physical combat.

[Stormfury]

Depends on context. It is still a challenge, though the tradition is for two parties (typically the commanders) to mutually agree to have their duel settle the outcome of the Trial. The challenged party is well within their rights to refuse, however. If an unrelated challenge is issued during or prior to combat, the results may differ.

[Nightlord01]

Depends on context. It is still a challenge, though the tradition is for two parties (typically the commanders) to mutually agree to have their duel settle the outcome of the Trial. The challenged party is well within their rights to refuse, however. If an unrelated challenge is issued during or prior to combat, the results may differ.

Depends on whether you are talking about honoured opponents or not. If challenged, and the individual refuses against an honourable opponent who has no unfair advantage, the loss of honour/prestige is quite high. Against a dezgra, such as this situation, there would be no ill effect what so ever.

[Ian Sharpe]

As I play it, if I am outnumbering my opponent in a zell game, I wait ill all my engaged units have been played to move my unengaged ones in order to avoid init-sinking. When a Clan force uses zell vs an IS one, this way should be observed... I'd be prone to allow players to make good tactical moves with their unengaged units.

It should be remembered Foxbat that you're a nice guy with a strong sense of fair play.  The same can't be said for everyone, in as much as we might all wish it.

There's fair play, like letting the opponent move into woods hexes or onto hills for partial cover, and then things I've seen proposed by IS players, like the unengaged Hunchback moving to short range and rear arc of an engaged Clan mech.  Its not doing anything, yet, but I'd consider that dishonourable.  Its not because the pilot was smart or good or even lucky, its IMO very poor conduct on the player's part.  I'm certain IS players would cry foul if an unengaged HBK IIC was starting in short range and the rear arc of an Atlas or other assault. 

Its more important to me to stick to the spirit of zellbrigen than the honour levels.  As a Clan players, esp in the Invasion, I expect only my lights and lower end mediums to engage single opponents(and hopefully they're heavier opponents).  Mist Lynx v Jenner?  That's a blast.  Stormcrows on up can, for the most part, engage two or even three opponents(Warhawk/Dire Wolf) especially if IS assaults are rare/not present.  A GRH, MAD and WHM versus a Warhawk C?  Sure, that sounds much more fair than each trying it individually.  Dueling should be restricted to evenly matched opponents, which is one of the abuses the Clan side makes.  Fighting one on one against inferior machines and pilots isn't a sign of anything. 

I've played IS and Clan from both sides, and have a very cynical view of honour codes(deck stacked in my favour? honourable.  deck stacked in your favour?  obviously dishonourable worthy of no respect) but all too often, neither side is willing to show any faith in the other due to so many battles coming down to 'when's the best time to initiate a melee?'. 

[Deadborder]

Abusing Zell is very much a "you reap what you sow" affair. Try and abuse the system and the Clanners will take it out on you. Even the most traditional and hidebound of Clanners aren't stupid, if an opponent is going to twist things or the like, then they're not going to honour Zel either. The instant anything goes awry, and you can expect the Clanners to go ape-snot on you.

[cold1]

Abusing Zell is very much a "you reap what you sow" affair. Try and abuse the system and the Clanners will take it out on you. Even the most traditional and hidebound of Clanners aren't stupid, if an opponent is going to twist things or the like, then they're not going to honour Zel either. The instant anything goes awry, and you can expect the Clanners to go ape-snot on you.

Yup...
In the 3050's they bring in reinforcements

In the 3070's they withdraw and melt the surface of your planet from orbit

[Guitardian]

Tell them you'll prove you're the more skillful warrior if you can use his mech and he use yours.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Over the years I have probably witnessed every attempt to abuse Zell players could think of. The most reliable method is mixing in vehicles and infantry if the Clan player has only 'Mechs. The tactic has never prevented me from shooting at the vehicles but does dilute firepower.

  Another good tactic is the meat grinder- As soon as an IS challenger is down or retires from the field another IS 'Mech takes its place. This can be expensive but if you have the numbers you can take the field. As a Clan player, I never leave the fight while I have operational weapons and will not ask for permission to leave from any IS player and I only allow totally disarmed 'Mechs hegira.

  Forget about taunting a Clan player into a considerably unbalanced fight- That kind of rubbish only happens in novels and Hollywood. A Clan player has no obligation to accept a challenge from an IS mechwarrior.
  I've had single light 'Mechs attempt to challenge a Trinary- It was a obvious ruse to draw away Clan 'Mechs from pursuing other IS units. I always laugh at the attempt and tell them to bring a regiment before issuing a challenge. The same goes for people who try to end a battle with individual or lance combat challenges. No Clan commander would even consider such terms unless he was on the field. That being said, once a Batchall is declared I rarely allow the IS player to amend its conditions- If I bid a Cluster you had better be ready to fight a Cluster.

  Once challenges have been made a Clan player may order nonparticipating units to stand well clear of the fight or be declared as interfering. If you are going to skulk around a fight don't be surprised if a chance shot invites you into the battle.

  A Clan player should have no qualms about challenging two to three times his weight in IS 'Mechs. Ideally, you should fight them one at a time but I have placed multiple challenges and had Omnis waiting on the sidelines to take part in the Clan version of the meat grinder, where a fresh Omni challenges IS units damaged in previous fighting.

[Guitardian]

Again I'll say I think the best test to "honorable" battle of an IS warrior versus a clan one would be to offer to trade mechs for the duel. It's not exactly abusing or manipulative like throwing in forces not covered by the honor code, but I would think it certainly takes them down a notch if they have to admit in front of their clan elite friends that they can only win because of their cool shiny toy rather than their awesome genetic clanner awesomeness and awesome honorable skilly awesomeness. So maybe some young buck in the clan ranks would want to one-up his elder by accepting the challenge instead?

  I try to avoid clan vs IS fights because it's like playing one side of the board with the rules of checkers and the other with the rules of chess... but anyway... I guess since they dont like physical contact, as it is beneath them, crude and all that... just get in his face and punch it. It wont occur to him to punch you in the face first it just isn't in their culture (which is more about ER-PPC-ing your head off with help of a genetic engineering and a targeting computer etc from a half a klick away and bragging about how superior you are for doing so).

[Stormfury]

I believe neurohelmets need to be synchronised not just for the pilot but for the 'Mech. This is a delicate process and can take several hours to complete.

Either way the Spheroid opponent is proposing a halt to to the battle in progress so that they can change the odds to what they believe will favour them. IMO, that is tantamount to admitting they cannot win the battle they elected to fight, so why would a Clan warrior be obliged to give an incompetant commander admitting failure a second chance to win?

Zellbrigen =/= Inflexible stupidity.

[Guitardian]

stupidity is fighting clan tech 1-on-1 on terms they are used to. If they weren't dupable into silly honor agreements that can cost them battles, the IS would have just been smashed if the invaders came in fighting without a restrictive honor code and just destroyed all opposition without egos and bragging rights and senses of honor getting in the way.  Don't it suck when being super-duper-kickass has a drawback?

[Ian Sharpe]

  Over the years I have probably witnessed every attempt to abuse Zell players could think of. The most reliable method is mixing in vehicles and infantry if the Clan player has only 'Mechs. The tactic has never prevented me from shooting at the vehicles but does dilute firepower.

Correct, zellbrigen is a courtesy not extended to vehicles.  They're fair game unless previously agreed to extend them the courtesy of zell, which means they then fall under the restrictions.

  A Clan player should have no qualms about challenging two to three times his weight in IS 'Mechs. Ideally, you should fight them one at a time but I have placed multiple challenges and had Omnis waiting on the sidelines to take part in the Clan version of the meat grinder, where a fresh Omni challenges IS units damaged in previous fighting.

To use my earlier example, I don't see the challenge in using a Warhawk to fight a Grasshopper, a Warhammer and a Marauder all in single combat, one at a time.  Those Mechs shouldn't have a chance assuming its anything like realistic pilots and they're not all Kai or Phelan.  Three on one, however, gives them a shot, proves the Warhawk pilot to be something special, etc.  I can't say I'd want to play three single duels as that IS player, either.

[Stormfury]

stupidity is fighting clan tech 1-on-1 on terms they are used to. If they weren't dupable into silly honor agreements that can cost them battles, the IS would have just been smashed if the invaders came in fighting without a restrictive honor code and just destroyed all opposition without egos and bragging rights and senses of honor getting in the way.  Don't it suck when being super-duper-kickass has a drawback?

Even in the scenario you posit, the Clans have been "duped" into meeting the Spheroid warriors on terms both agree were fair.

So if the fair battle is going against the Spheroid forces and their commander proposes abandoning the battle in progress due to the obvious outcome, why is the Clan player obliged to say yes?

Further, the Inner Sphere was smashed even though the invaders came in fighting with a restrictive code of honour. ~210 worlds taken, three Inner Sphere victories prior to Tukayyid, two of which prevented the fall of a planet to the Clans. That advance was halted by internicine politicking, not Inner Sphere ability.

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, the difrence between canon, in cherictor type battles and what we tend to see in games is that zellbrigen is itsself the ballancing mechanism for back in the day when tonnage tended to be the order of the day.  So, a Clan force that was inimaginably more potent than is IS opponent (a pretty reasonable senerio in 3050) would suffer enough of a handycap from hyper-restrictive level 1 zell that it might make a pretty intresting fight.  By contrast, such a fight would be a walk over with the honor levels used in the 3070s, but if tech and skill levels were brought up to match it would again be even.

One of the biggest problems I've always had with zell is opponents insisting on a battle that's ballanced by BV, but then asking me to abide by zell.  A fight that's even in terms of mechs is only even if both players also have a free tactical hand, so asking me to tie my hands is problematic unless you're prepaired to take some old ass 3rd succession wars mechs, too. 

Its a role playing thing, so it works really well in senerios and such.  But if you want a properly compeitive, 'even,' 'fair' fight, then leave that at the door and let each player bring their best stuff. 

[Spartan117]

I am sure this has already been mentioned but I just got done running a mission for my brother during Operation Bulldog.  His Merc company(and some vehicle support) against a binary of Jaguars.  He issued challenges and held zell until his units that weren't engaged got into in place.  This took about 4-5 turns, then he flipped the C3 switch, broke zell, and started tagging the clan mechs for Arrow IVs.  Game only lasted a few more turns since I had to adhere to Level 1 honor.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, quite honestly, requiring a player to adhere to Level 1 honor is abusing Zell unless the other side has a seriously inferior force.

[willydstyle]

I am sure this has already been mentioned but I just got done running a mission for my brother during Operation Bulldog.  His Merc company(and some vehicle support) against a binary of Jaguars.  He issued challenges and held zell until his units that weren't engaged got into in place.  This took about 4-5 turns, then he flipped the C3 switch, broke zell, and started tagging the clan mechs for Arrow IVs.  Game only lasted a few more turns since I had to adhere to Level 1 honor.

Considering the post-invasion Jaguars have an Opportunistic interpretation of Clan honor, I don't see why they would have accepted challenges from any but the most honorable of IS opponents, let alone mercenaries, and even then would be as likely as not to drop zell as soon as it would be favorable to do so.

[Auman]

I am sure this has already been mentioned but I just got done running a mission for my brother during Operation Bulldog.  His Merc company(and some vehicle support) against a binary of Jaguars.  He issued challenges and held zell until his units that weren't engaged got into in place.  This took about 4-5 turns, then he flipped the C3 switch, broke zell, and started tagging the clan mechs for Arrow IVs.  Game only lasted a few more turns since I had to adhere to Level 1 honor.

I would love to know the name of the mercenary commander/unit/etc that did this to you, so I can honor him by referring to it as his maneuver. Because that is the exact same thing I want to accomplish in combat... And since my guys are Bulldog veterans, they very well could have learned of it just after it happened.

[Col.Hengist]

Call it the Col.Hengist maneuver...its the same tactic I mentioned at the top of the page...

[willydstyle]

And it wouldn't work well if the Jags broke zell first :D  Clans have Arrow IV too, you know.

[Col.Hengist]

Wolves and Falcons...sure,I'll concede that,but the Jags? I just don't see it.

[willydstyle]

Well, according to the devs, they have an "opportunistic" interpretation of Clan Honor post-invasion.  I know it's not as free of restrictions as "liberal", but at the same time Total Warfare says that a unit with Opportunistic interpretation of Clan Honor will drop Zell if they feel like they can get away with it, which against IS mercenaries would definitely be the case.

[Col.Hengist]

I'm sure you're right, it just doesn't feel smoke jag to me tho.

[Stormfury]

It's how they are described as acting in the novels and Invasion-era sourcebooks, though. Definitely not a new idea or retcon.

[Spartan117]

Considering the post-invasion Jaguars have an Opportunistic interpretation of Clan honor, I don't see why they would have accepted challenges from any but the most honorable of IS opponents, let alone mercenaries, and even then would be as likely as not to drop zell as soon as it would be favorable to do so.

I was converting the scenario book "The Dragons Roars" into a mini campaign for my brother and in the first mission it said the Jaguars had to adhere to Level 1 honor rules.  I had never really used Level 1 rules so I figured I would give it a try and see how it went since it wasn't my personal unit on the chopping block. 

Didn't fare too well. Pretty sure the rest of the scenarios call for Level 2 rules so I won't have to get my butt handed to me again.

[Spartan117]

I would love to know the name of the mercenary commander/unit/etc that did this to you, so I can honor him by referring to it as his maneuver. Because that is the exact same thing I want to accomplish in combat... And since my guys are Bulldog veterans, they very well could have learned of it just after it happened.

This was my brother's personal merc unit: The Mechslayers. Pm Innersphere3050 if you would like more details I am sure he would love to share  ;D

[Iron Mongoose]

Well, if the Jags were really upset about things and the had the oppertunity, they could always call in orbital fire support, which is something we've seen them do at least once...

A honor rules are all about role playing, so a lot of it can come down to what units you have and what sort of cherictors are there.  In the modern mini unit rules, even into the present 3085 ones, there are some units that are noted and being more honorable and that won't break zell if the can help it, and others noted as throwing it out the window at the drop of a hat.  So the decision to use level 1 or 3 or 3 has to be at least a bit situational.  For example, in the first wave of Bulldog, the Jags were still only starting to realize the scale of what was going on, so its not entirely unreasonable for Dragon Roars to ask for level 1 in the first round, depending on the units and the world in question.

[Auman]

Call it the Col.Hengist maneuver...its the same tactic I mentioned at the top of the page...

It's the same tactic I mentioned at the beginning of the thread too. It will be the Colonel Battletech.com Maneuver. Spartan117, I'd just like to know the name of the magnificent bastard that actually pulled that off in a game and I'll be set to write about how my doods ripped off his idea during my campaign.

[Spartan117]

It's the same tactic I mentioned at the beginning of the thread too. It will be the Colonel Battletech.com Maneuver. Spartan117, I'd just like to know the name of the magnificent bastard that actually pulled that off in a game and I'll be set to write about how my doods ripped off his idea during my campaign.

Auman-  That would be Colonel Jay Knight.

[Nightlord01]

I find it amusing that everyone thinks a Clan commander is going to react to Zell breaches by bringing a war ship in and glassing the surface. The commitment of all assets in a clan engagement have to be listed up front. To bring in forces outside of your opening bid is tantamount to treason for a clanner. Yes, they could bid their war ship in the opening bid, but would likely draw great contempt from their competitor.

Remember, clanners bid against each other for the right to take a battle. A clanner hopes to win with their final bid, but is able to bring down reinforcements equal to their competitors last bid with only a minor honour penalty. At a pinch, a clanner may bring down all forces included in their first bid, but this requires their competitors consent. To bring a war ship against land based opponents would be a massive loss of honour for a clan commander. First, they admit that they cannot win the battle on fair terms. Second, they use an asset so totally disproportionate to their needs that they have required Khan consent to use previously.

A clanner will not give a damn about what a spheriod thinks about them, but they care a great deal what the other warriors in their clan think of them. Clanners also apparently detest waste, and glassing a battle zone is the ultimate in waste. A clanner will stick to the assets allocated, not because Zell requires them to, but because to do otherwise pretty well equals career suicide.

Ultimately, if a clanner is facing defeat due to treachery, they will simply abandon Zell, and bring all their land forces to bear, but a war ship would be a pointless waste of assets. This is only if a clanner will adhere to Zell in the first place, and that is so unlikely when facing mercenaries as to be laughable.

[Stormfury]

I find it amusing that everyone thinks a Clan commander is going to react to Zell breaches by bringing a war ship in and glassing the surface. The commitment of all assets in a clan engagement have to be listed up front. To bring in forces outside of your opening bid is tantamount to treason for a clanner. Yes, they could bid their war ship in the opening bid, but would likely draw great contempt from their competitor.

If their opponent not only violates their own bid but very evidently went in never intending to honour it in the first place, what the Clan character had as their initial bid or what their opponent bid last is irrelevant. At that point, they are well within their rights to deploy whatever forces they feel like deploying in order to rid the universe of their foe.

Personally when I referenced bringing in a WarShip I was thinking more along the lines of interdicting the planet's orbit and ensuring the enemy does not escape.

That said, an opponent who bids their forces, shows up with a C3-linked company and murders a Cluster commander is exactly the sort of opponent I would eradicate from orbit rather than honour with open battle if the opportunity to do so presented itself. I would not try to make it happen, but if events fell that way, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Iron Mongoose]

I think the Warship refrences aren't, at least in my mind, so much an example of appropreate IC responces so much as a possible GM tool for teaching a player who's trying to misbehave a lesson.  The main idea isn't that its probable as that is possible, so if a player's misdeeds are sufficantly bad, there's always a further way to escelate things.

IC, of course most Clanners would try to deal with things with the force on hand.  They think they're better than everyone else anyway, and they seem to think honor and combat skill go hand in hand so they lower their oppinion of the risk posed by dishonorable foes.  A slightly more pragmatic Clanner would call in extra forces within the context of his bid (opponents last bid first, up to the opening bid in a pinch).

But, some of what has been discussed is pretty bad.  Especaly when its not just about tactics but about using extra units as ambushes or other such fun things as that, there's always that wildly over the top rage bourdering on maddness just beneath the surface that you can call on in a pinch when you need to make things intresting.

[Ian Sharpe]

Orbital bombardment is over the top for me to use, but calling in the ASFs that should be in every cutdown bid isn't.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Orbital bombardment is over the top for me to use, but calling in the ASFs that should be in every cutdown bid isn't.

  I agree -Calling in anything above the original bid is an admission of failure. The violation of Zell is a tactical issue and a warship is strategic. Two weeks ago I played out an OPFOR Clan unit that is facing DCMS units in a replay of the Battle of Luthien. The first scenario had two Stars of Clan ASF with underwing bombs destroy the majority of an overstrength battalion of 'Mechs and the following scenario pitted the fastest elements of two recon Stars against a forlorn hope of slower IS 'Mechs that survived the first scenario. In the second scenario, the DCMS player allowed the six Firemoths to close before he broke Zell but in the battle he was only able to hit once before the Firemoths destroyed his force. What the DCMS player did not know was my particular Clan unit's reaction to violating Zell- It was recognized on the Trinary level so that one DCMS unit was considered to have broken Zell against two Trinaries (the recon Omnis were elements of two separate Trinaries) in the last scenario, which predictably ended with a massive slaughter with negligible damage to the Clan force.

  In this exercise I have access to a warship and while the IS players panicked when they spotted it on their sensors it is only there to observe- As a Clan commander I have more than enough on the ground to punish attempts at IS treachery.

[Col.Hengist]

Sounds to me like that whole game was one sided.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Sounds to me like that whole game was one sided.

  It was for a while- The Clans lost several Trinaries to DCMS air power alone due to the new Aero rules. It doesn't matter how many ASF you have, a determined ASF unit willing to take losses will bypass your fighters and down your dropships. I lost two fully loaded Overlord-Cs in a single turn of firing. Sure, I damaged a few ASF but it was no consolation prize.

  Air power has been the deciding factor in the entire campaign- The battle I mentioned would never had happened if the Clan players had not finally gained air superiority, something the DCMS obtained over Luthien by the second day after much savage fighting. The IS players gambled in pooling their air assets to overwhelm Clan ASF early on but the player in charge of the ASF tried to win solely using the air assets and when the Clans resorted to massive fighter sweeps combined with capturing key airfields, the strategic initiative has shifted to favor the Clan forces.

  Point-wise the Clans are losing the battle while the IS players are running out the clock and laying low (for the most part).

[cold1]

Orbital bombardment is over the top for me to use, but calling in the ASFs that should be in every cutdown bid isn't.

Depends on the Era and the clan.  3050's Jags yeah if the enemy makes a mockery of zell ASF and artillery that were cut down are coming in