Fighting at Long Range Successfully?

[bakija]

Ok, so last night a buddy and I played a game--6000 BV, home made mechs, a lance on each side of late era IS technology mechs. We were using 4 random map panels (as that was the size of the table, and it seemed a reasonable size for a lance vs lance). I figured I'd try an all long range weapon force.

I had:

2x55 ton 5/8/5 guys with an ERPPC and LBXAC10 each.
2x40 ton 6/9/6 guys with an ERPPC, ERML (just 'cause there was some leftover space) and a TC.

Seems like a reasonable force for fighting at long range.

Check. My buddy had:
1x70 ton 4/6 guy with a Gauss Rifle, HPPC, and LAC5 w/precision ammo, TC.
2x60 ton 5/8 guys with AC20 w/precision ammo and a MPL, TC.
1x40 ton 7/11 guy with a bunch of SRM4s and infernos.

These apparently came out to about the same BV (my guys having jump jets made them not insignificantly more expensive per guy).

I figured "Huh. That is a lot of scary guns. Well, I totally out range him, so I should be ok."

Right. So as he closes in, it is impossible to hit anything, due to there being some trees and a few hills. He gets to the middle of the map, I get to take a few long range pot shots that score a little damage. I try and keep the range open, he closes in. I score a little more damage, but nothing real significant. I eventually end up cornered after a few turns of trying to evade and shoot at range, and the fight lasts a while, but in the end, I get totally savaged, basically due to being unable to stay out of range of a couple AC20s with precision ammo (jumping backwards 6 doesn't help when the AC20's are running forward 8...). My opponent's big, heavy hitting guy was essentially useless (I think a single gauss rifle shot hit once the whole game), but was still an area control threat that meant that trying to run out to R10 from the AC20 guys was less attractive if it meant being in the wide open. One of my dudes got his leg shot off and then took an ignominious AC20 shot to the head. Another guy got AC20ed in the torso, took a couple engine crits, started overheating, the inferno guy finally started getting some hits (that guy fired a *lot* of SRM ammo that went nowhere), and the poor dude shut down from overheating (hey! at least his ammo didn't explode!).

All in all, the game was pretty hilarious, but just further convinced me that trying to rely on long range combat is really difficult. I mean, granted, I lost initiative 9 out of 10 rounds of combat where it mattered, which certainly didn't help. But unless you know, like, a map is going to be completely free of terrain, attempting to leverage weapons with extreme ranges seems incredibly difficult to pull off.

Any clever ideas?

[Kitsune413]

Pre-3050 the real ideal of long range combat is the 7 hex short range bracket for lrms.

After that c3 networks are the way to go.

After that atow has pilot perks that would help but those aren't judged by battle value.

[garhkal]

I agree, you should have ponied up for C3..

[Nahuris]

C3 is one option, albeit an expensive one, as it adds 30% to the BV2 of each mech in the network. Targeting computers also help.
Also, though, you made a classic mistake in the tonnage areas --- and that is, you were systematically lighter than your opponent, for dubious returns ..... Lighter machines have to be focused on their role, as they don't have the tonnage to play jack of all trades. Second, your armor is always going to be lighter .... so you cannot slug it out.
In addition, the ERPPC is not the hole puncher it used to be..... you can use it, but you have to consider it in all of it's benefits and limitations --- it's hot, and only gives you a 10 point hit. In 3025 tech, 10 points was great... in later eras, it's pretty average.
If the terrain is open enough that he could get runs of 8, to counter your jump 6, then you were in the wrong terrain already.

I tend to favor both lighter units, and longer ranges.... and letting yourself get cornered on 4 map sheets tells me that either you really had some bad initiative rolls, or you focused too hard on trying to control range, and let yourself get cornered. Knowing when to keep the range open, and when to do a quick runby to re-open range, is a skillset that takes time to develop.... and practice is the only way to do it.


Second while you did have some decent stuff there, there was nothing that was particularly exceptional. When you use a light fast striker force, especially geared for long range, things like jump jets are an option.... because they cost --- as in, when you have jump jets, you are also paying for the opportunity to do death from above... even if you never try it. And in any terrain where your opponent is close to your speed, where running gives him more options than your jump, you are in a rough spot.

For the type of terrain you are describing, a mech like the Talon probably would have served you better.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Talon_%28BattleMech%29

Lastly, I am looking at his force, and trying to figure out how much ammo he was carrying for that AC/20
Precision ammo is half shots per tonnage, rounded down, so a ton of precision ammo is only 2 shots on the AC/20 per ton. So it is possible to run him out of ammo, but probably only with units that have the armor, just in case. And also, remember that precision ammo is NOT a base +2 bonus, but instead negates up to +2 of the targets movement mod -- that means that at long range, if you force them to run to get there, and with basic gunnery, they would need a 10+ to hit you. If you can generate a +3 or better, then you add to that number, and make it even harder. However, a heavily armored slower unit can actually be the bane of precision ammo, especially on an AC/20, because the ranges are so restricted, just move enough to control range, but never give your opponent the advantage he is going for.

As for options you could have used --- when going for long range, open areas are your friends --- you want to use range to keep your opponent from firing, not terrain.
Second, smoke is your friend --- even the lowly LRM5, or SRM2,  can produce smoke that can be used to block LOS, and make it far more difficult for your opponents to shoot at you.
Finally, accept that you might get into a position where you either have to close to get by an opponent, or just to finish things, so weapons like SRM's, and especially, the Snub nosed PPC, can be very useful for that.

In the end, though with the mechs you listed, you traded speed for the flexibility of jumps, and on more open maps, that is not always the best choice.

Nahuris

[Kitsune413]

Welcome to the Free Worlds League by the way...

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I'm not sure that prioritizing mobility really works outside of Alpha Strike.

In CBT the finesse side has a hell of a time beating the heavier/tougher/more firepower force.  An all important first mandatory condition is a very, very large battlefield to allow the superior mobility side to employ its superior range.

[Col.Hengist]

It has been my experience that long range fighting doesn't work other than for artillery and indirect.

 Use a long range gun to move into shorter range, that's about all they're good for. There's a reason the atlas only has one long range weapon.

#STEINER!!!

[Kitsune413]

On a larger tactical scale it is brilliant. Battleforce rules.

Because of the way we play battletech, on a couple of maps deathmatch, it isn't always effective.

Though I have had a ton of fun with indirect fire and at larger levels, like ultra slow battalion levels that sort of indirect firepower can make a huge difference.

But on battleforce rules (which Alpha Strike takes from) You end up engaging and withering down fewer units because you can isolate or pick away at them.

So it's not impossible but it needs to happen at the scenario selection stage.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Effective long range combat relies a lot on Gunnery quality.
  When I run campaigns, the players make a point to start out with gods of the battlefield, with Gunnery between 3 and 1 because starting with a 4/5 G/P is a death sentence -You will simply not hit anything outside of short range. One of my players had Natural Aptitude Gunnery to top off his Gunnery of 1, capable of dropping most opponents before they even got into a range where they could hit him...despite that, as a Clan character he still lost challenges from other players, who had lower skills but were far better players.

[bakija]

I'm not sure that prioritizing mobility really works outside of Alpha Strike.

Yeah, that has been my experience most of the time in a long time of off and on Battletech playing. This last game was a specific attempt at trying to maximize pure long range firepower and mobility, and it just reinforced what I already thought--trying to be fast and fight at long range is really only possible if you know that the maps will be pretty much completely empty ahead of time (which was not the case here--we just set up 4 mostly random maps; 2 of them were basic box set kinda maps, one was hilly with trees, one was mostly open with a big area of pavement in the middle). Trying to take shots at long range against a moving opponent who has a few trees in the way results in just a whole lot of missing (if not a whole lot of impossible shots).

In CBT the finesse side has a hell of a time beating the heavier/tougher/more firepower force.  An all important first mandatory condition is a very, very large battlefield to allow the superior mobility side to employ its superior range.

True. But that that point, the battlefield becomes too large to actually use. We were using a 2x2 map. We might have been able to pull off a 2x3 map. But even then, you end up pinned against a corner eventually anyway, and once there, trying to run off in another direction results in a lot of getting shot in the back :-)

[bakija]

C3 is one option, albeit an expensive one, as it adds 30% to the BV2 of each mech in the network. Targeting computers also help.

Yeah, C3 might have been a good option, but it is very expensive, making the mechs in question even smaller and weaker. But I did certainly have TCs.

Also, though, you made a classic mistake in the tonnage areas --- and that is, you were systematically lighter than your opponent, for dubious returns ..... Lighter machines have to be focused on their role, as they don't have the tonnage to play jack of all trades. Second, your armor is always going to be lighter .... so you cannot slug it out.

Oh, ya know, I didn't know what I was fighting before I got there. When my opponent set up his mechs, I was like "whoah. That is a lot more mech than I thought one could get for 6000 BV...", but it turns out that it was all reasonable.

Jump jets make mechs cost a lot more than non jump jet equipped guys--the offensive BV (about half the BV total, if not more) of a 6/9 mech is multiplied by a factor of 1.50. That same mech as a 6/9/6 is multipled by a factor of 1.89. Which means that on, like, a 1400 BV 6/9/6 mech, about 200 points of that BV is those jump jets. So yeah, having jump jets is costing a lot, and making mechs smaller and more fragile.

In addition, the ERPPC is not the hole puncher it used to be..... you can use it, but you have to consider it in all of it's benefits and limitations --- it's hot, and only gives you a 10 point hit. In 3025 tech, 10 points was great... in later eras, it's pretty average.

Yeah, they were decidedly unimpressive. It was a specific attempt to leverage long range guns, and I don't think I could have afforded gauss rifles on the same mechs, so, well, ERPPCs it was! I would have been vastly better off with HPPCs, and wouldn't have had that much of a loss of range.

If the terrain is open enough that he could get runs of 8, to counter your jump 6, then you were in the wrong terrain already.

Oh, sure. Like, clearly, the terrain didn't help. But in a pick up game with essentially random maps, that is what happens.

I tend to favor both lighter units, and longer ranges.... and letting yourself get cornered on 4 map sheets tells me that either you really had some bad initiative rolls, or you focused too hard on trying to control range, and let yourself get cornered.

Yeah, initiative didn't help. I lost, like, 9 of 10 initiative rolls when it mattered (had I won initiative that much, maybe I woulda won. Who knows?). But it really isn't *that* difficult to get cornered on a map that has an edge. Like, I probably could have put more effort into running away to try and keep the range open, but that generally results in getting shot in the back a lot. Especially when you keep losing initiative :-)

Lastly, I am looking at his force, and trying to figure out how much ammo he was carrying for that AC/20Precision ammo is half shots per tonnage, rounded down, so a ton of precision ammo is only 2 shots on the AC/20 per ton.

Yep. But as they were custom mechs, there were 4 tons of ammo per AC20 (i.e. 8 shots). Which isn't a huge ammount, but if even 25% of those hit, that's that game. I think each AC20 took about 5-6 shots, and they hit with 2-3 of them. Which made a mess, as one might imagine. With cannon mechs, precision ammo tends to blow, as big ACs are never going to have enough ammo (as how often do cannon mechs have, for example, 4 tons of AC20 ammo?). But with custom mechs, you can have enough ammo to be scary. And I don't think BV remotely accurately values precision ammo (and AC20 that is essentially always -2 to hit is terrifying. Assuming it doesn't run out of ammo after 4 shots.)

[DarkSpade]

Looking at your force, it doesn't seem like you gave him any reason to stay at long range.  With all your long range weapons and all his short range weapons, he never really had to second guess himself.  Rushing was his only real option.

Try a force with 2 long range hitters, and 2 fast brawlers.  Get in his face with the fast ones. Don't worry about hitting anything with them at first, just keep their defensive modifiers up.  If you're opponent tries to rush in on your long range units, now your fast ones have rear arc shots.  If he goes after your fast units, your long range units can pick him off.  You can also start harassing his long range unit(s).  If you scare him enough he might keep his units at long range for you.

[Red Pins]

One of the big things with a long-ranged force is normally overlooked - a reason to stay there.  Most units and pilots simply aren't effective at more than Medium range.

I find a pair or vehicles, like the Capellan augmented Lances offers me the best option, either planting them in the middle of the map to create the "circle of death" or keeping them at the rear to constantly pepper my opponent with LRMs or whatever.  Personally, I like to use a pair of 3050-era Hunter tanks with paired LRM-15s and Artemis at the rear of my force to force them to stay back.

You may as well use a single long-range weapon like an ER-LgL or PPC to help get to within 9 hexes, then plan for the battle from there.

[Nahuris]

Yeah, C3 might have been a good option, but it is very expensive, making the mechs in question even smaller and weaker. But I did certainly have TCs.

Oh, ya know, I didn't know what I was fighting before I got there. When my opponent set up his mechs, I was like "whoah. That is a lot more mech than I thought one could get for 6000 BV...", but it turns out that it was all reasonable.

Jump jets make mechs cost a lot more than non jump jet equipped guys--the offensive BV (about half the BV total, if not more) of a 6/9 mech is multiplied by a factor of 1.50. That same mech as a 6/9/6 is multipled by a factor of 1.89. Which means that on, like, a 1400 BV 6/9/6 mech, about 200 points of that BV is those jump jets. So yeah, having jump jets is costing a lot, and making mechs smaller and more fragile.

Yeah, they were decidedly unimpressive. It was a specific attempt to leverage long range guns, and I don't think I could have afforded gauss rifles on the same mechs, so, well, ERPPCs it was! I would have been vastly better off with HPPCs, and wouldn't have had that much of a loss of range.

Oh, sure. Like, clearly, the terrain didn't help. But in a pick up game with essentially random maps, that is what happens.

Yeah, initiative didn't help. I lost, like, 9 of 10 initiative rolls when it mattered (had I won initiative that much, maybe I woulda won. Who knows?). But it really isn't *that* difficult to get cornered on a map that has an edge. Like, I probably could have put more effort into running away to try and keep the range open, but that generally results in getting shot in the back a lot. Especially when you keep losing initiative :-)

Yep. But as they were custom mechs, there were 4 tons of ammo per AC20 (i.e. 8 shots). Which isn't a huge ammount, but if even 25% of those hit, that's that game. I think each AC20 took about 5-6 shots, and they hit with 2-3 of them. Which made a mess, as one might imagine. With cannon mechs, precision ammo tends to blow, as big ACs are never going to have enough ammo (as how often do cannon mechs have, for example, 4 tons of AC20 ammo?). But with custom mechs, you can have enough ammo to be scary. And I don't think BV remotely accurately values precision ammo (and AC20 that is essentially always -2 to hit is terrifying. Assuming it doesn't run out of ammo after 4 shots.)

Ok, that clarifies a lot of the information ---- and yeah, blind games are always a pain to go into --- although I get the impression that your opponent had more of an idea of what he was going to be dealing with, than you did.... not being critical, just reflecting on how harmonized his force was. And yeah, anytime you are in a lighter force that does not have either speed, or tech advantages, you are going to get hurt.

One advantage you did have was the fact that you were using hex maps, though --- as I have noticed that when I run a faster force, a number of my opponents push for the double movement "miniature" rules, to arbitrarily shrink the battlefield...

Now for some options that aren't so expensive --- swarm missiles. They deal very well with the Assault, or heavy cluster player..... and you only really need one ton on the field.
Tag -- same effect, as you can use it to spot for LRM's, but also have any unit that carries one ton of Arrow IV --- and just tag the hex itself, and use AOE, and let the splash damage do the work. This works well with the Arrow IV Yellow Jacket, as you can always fire the missile, and while not fast, isn't hampered by terrain, and can shoot from further than any mech based weapon.
Others have noted C3, which works --- but it has a few flaws --- one is the cost, and second, it requires that at least one mech get in close, and take combined fire, for the rest....and it can be jammed out very easily, rendering all that BV wasted -- I have found that mentioning that I am planning on fielding a WOB themed forces, but not putting the C3, or just not having it active, for mechs that do have it, and therefor not paying the BV can help, as your opponent will, very likely load up on ECM, just in case.

Finally, to fight at range, you really need to give your opponent a reason to not want to rush you --- which is why I suggested Snub Nosed PPC's --- that short range out to 9 hexes makes people worry about getting close to you, and 2 of them are still lighter than an AC/20, without ammo, and while it is 2 hits at 10 damage each, again, the short range reaches out to 9 hexes, and it really makes people think about avoiding the target with it. Another good weapon is the MML --- yeah, it's bulky and heavy, but no one likes an SRM9 pointed at them.... although they do tend to cut down your long range fire. And mixing one in with standard LRM's tends to burden you with a lot of ammo to worry about.

In the end, though, battletech was originally built on the premise from anime, that the weapons were the early part of the battle, and that the physical combat was the goal -- most of 3025 play is just trying to get in, and get a good kick, to the point where it is mentioned in the fluff for Crusaders, and also the Jagermech... which is a mech that should NEVER try and close.... so, if you want to use ranged combat, you need to carefully set up for it, and then maximize your advantages, when you can, but if your opponent wants to force the issue, then make it hurt him --- short range barrages of SRM's, rotary 5 autocannons, and clusters of medium lasers all work well for that.

Nahuris

[House Davie Merc]

You want to fight at long range ?

1. Try some LRMs .
A LOT of LRMs . No they aren't perfect .
They are comparatively cheap .

2.Trade a little mobility for more weapons in
your ranged fighters .
Consider having less mobile but heavily armed units
fire to support more mobile units that close .

3. Improve the gunnery skills of the pilots that you want
for long range fighting .

4. Use and abuse the terrain .
Get elevated and use the cover available .
Don't be afraid to destroy the enemy's cover when
you don't have a good shot .

We had a good lance on lance 3025 game the other weekend .
Only one unit ever closed to physical range and that was my
Firejavelin  . ( Got behind a T-Bolt to punch ) .
My Warhammer spent more time destroying woods then
shooting at the enemy .
Without cover the other side was hesitant to cross the
no-mans land between us and my Archer tore him apart
with twin LRM-20s .

[bakija]

Ok, that clarifies a lot of the information ---- and yeah, blind games are always a pain to go into --- although I get the impression that your opponent had more of an idea of what he was going to be dealing with, than you did....

Nah--we both just put together forces and showed up and put random maps on the table. He was just a tad more reasonable in a plan than I was (he had a slow but heavily armed long range guy, a couple scary AC20 dudes who moved pretty fast, and then a little, fast 7/11 guy with a lot of SRMs for infernos). I was just "here are 4 jumpy mechs with ERPPCs to fight at long range and see how that goes". Which was poorly. I suppose if I could have convinced my opponent that the best plan for this game (after building forces) was to have a 3x3 parking lot map set up, I probably would have done a lot better...

[Colt Ward]

Well, one thing to think about is this . . . you are talking about weapons that have a range of 23 to 21 hexes as the longest they reach.  A 2x2 map is 33 hexes wide, which means you have at most 12 hexes of room for retrograde maneuvers to keep the range open.  After that he starts pinning you against a edge and wades in.

Ideally you needed to really be at medium range for your weapons which put him out of range or at long range for most of his and dance about the map with your jumpjets.  Your movement was really too slow in 3060s to be effective, to play that game 6/9/6 is a minimum and 7/11 or 7/11/7 is better because it gives you a chance to move to defensive terrain more often.  Which you will need lacking the same amount of armor- you have to play the long game, do not get hit is the mantra.

The other thing is if you are trying to keep the range open, you need to have some things handy to slow a rushing force down.  Basically it comes down to mining the approaches, either with real mines like Thunder or evil T-Aug or you use battle armor (say like 4 CS squads).  This is a variation  of giving them a reason not to rush you.  Although it is extremely satisfying to leap up from behind a L1 hill to land in the same hex as a pristine assault mech, go for the leg attack, and cause the limb to be blown off.  Makes me all warm & fuzzy with battle armor flavor.

Clan players complain about 2x2 being a phone booth for a reason.

[bakija]

Well, one thing to think about is this . . . you are talking about weapons that have a range of 23 to 21 hexes as the longest they reach.  A 2x2 map is 33 hexes wide, which means you have at most 12 hexes of room for retrograde maneuvers to keep the range open.  After that he starts pinning you against a edge and wades in.

Yeah. That seems to be one of the problems with this game in general--a lot of how a game plays out depends on what the map setup is, and there is no "standard" map set up. And if you and your opponent show up to play a game with pickup forces, how do you determine what map setup to use, as one side is always going to want a particular map setup that benefits them. For example, looking at my force (all ERPPCs) vs my opponent's force (AC20s), I want a 3x3 map of completely open terrain. My opponent wants a smaller map with hills and trees. Without having set up the terrain ahead of time (so both players could plan accordingly, which we did not do), it seems questionable to do anything other than, like, just set up random maps in the suggested size (i.e. 2 maps per lance is suggested as about average). Which well, results in forces like mine being flattened. But, well, I knew the risks when I joined this outfit :-)

For the next one, we'll clearly have to establish map parameters ahead of time.

Ideally you needed to really be at medium range for your weapons which put him out of range or at long range for most of his and dance about the map with your jumpjets.  Your movement was really too slow in 3060s to be effective, to play that game 6/9/6 is a minimum and 7/11 or 7/11/7 is better because it gives you a chance to move to defensive terrain more often.  Which you will need lacking the same amount of armor- you have to play the long game, do not get hit is the mantra.

Yeah, clearly that was the idea, but, well, it didn't work out as well as I'd hoped.

Again, though, initiative was really not in my corner for the day, which likely had a lot to do with the end result (which was a complete route...). The one time I had a good chance to kill someone on a crit roll, I had a 4/6 chance of hitting ammo and blowing them up, but, well, hit the other stuff instead. So the dice just were not wanting me to do well either :-)

The other thing is if you are trying to keep the range open, you need to have some things handy to slow a rushing force down.  Basically it comes down to mining the approaches, either with real mines like Thunder or evil T-Aug or you use battle armor (say like 4 CS squads).  This is a variation  of giving them a reason not to rush you.  Although it is extremely satisfying to leap up from behind a L1 hill to land in the same hex as a pristine assault mech, go for the leg attack, and cause the limb to be blown off.  Makes me all warm & fuzzy with battle armor flavor.

Yeah, set up mines and battle armor are certainly a possibility in general, but that wasn't the game we were playing (i.e. we were just using pick up lances of mechs). But maybe in another context, yeah, that is a good plan.

[massey]

When my friends and I play, we roll random maps.  That way nobody gets to pick one that benefits them too much.  If we both agree to veto a map (say, it's the all heavy woods one) then we throw it out.

The thing with long range combat is your goal isn't just to stay out of his max range, it's to stay in a bracket that is beneficial to you.  If he's got an AC-20, and you've got an ER PPC, you're going to want to be at range 7.  That's long range for him and short range for you.  If you lose initiative a lot, that's really hard to do.  But jump jets are useful for that because you can hop backwards and you don't have to worry about turning around or going up and down elevations.

You might think you want completely open terrain, but that's false.  You want stuff that won't block line of sight, but that slows your enemy down.  If you've got open terrain, he's just going to run straight at you.  You want to jump on top of some level 2 or 3 hills, and you want him having to cross rivers, go through woods, go around hills, etc.

[StoneRhino]

The problem with trying to fight using long range weapons is that it seems people think it means " I sit at long range all game." meaning they do not try to advance much. Also, it seems that people do not understand that they need to screen for their long range units. That reveals the problem of how do you fight from range if you need to also be at short range? The answer to that question is that you cannot truly fight at long range if you cannot maintain that range, and you cannot maintain that range if you cannot keep the other side from closing with ease. That cannot be done until you put something in their way to slow them down, but if you put a single unit in front that is facing 10 short ranged attackers, your one unit is dead upon contact.

Your force was basically all LBX10s and ERPPCs. That was it's fatal flaw. You cannot rely upon 100% long range weapons. The BV of a weapon changes based upon its range and damage output. If you are not using BV then the tonnage acts in a similar manner to an extent. Long range weapons that go unscreened soon become expensive short ranged weapons where your friend ends up with a lot more short range firepower then you on the cheap, so hes going to bring more to the party.

Next game try for a 50/50 mixture. Either half long range units and half short ranged units, or designs that have half long range, half short range. There are additional options, but that should be simple to try out.

Your friend's only move was to close with you fast since you had no short range units to slow him down and you have a range advantage. What else could he possibly do other then let you shoot his units to bits at long range?  Also by jumping back all you did was make sure that you were going to hit less often then he was. If there were some speed bumps in the way you could walk backwards to maintain range which keeps the distance but without making your shots a lot harder.

[Nightgaun7]

Long range combat is essentially a non-starter in Battletech unless you use something like SG LRMs or something, and even then it's tough to make work.

You have to realize, there are no real long range weapons in BT. There are weapons with longer ranges than others, but there is no weapon I know of that's actually better off at 25 hexes than 7, say. The LRM, with the word Long in the name, should want enemies to be far away and kept there - but the sweet spot for actually hitting is at 7 hexes. The Light Gauss Rifle and ERPPC also want you to be closer. The ERPPC doesn't even mind if you're directly adjacent.

You might think "Wait, what about C3?" Well, how does C3 work? It makes the range count as shorter. BTW, if you like C3, use the extreme range rules and exploit them ruthlessly.

[bakija]

Your force was basically all LBX10s and ERPPCs. That was it's fatal flaw. You cannot rely upon 100% long range weapons. The BV of a weapon changes based upon its range and damage output. If you are not using BV then the tonnage acts in a similar manner to an extent. Long range weapons that go unscreened soon become expensive short ranged weapons where your friend ends up with a lot more short range firepower then you on the cheap, so he's going to bring more to the party.

Keep in mind that this was an experiment in "what happens if you have 100% long range weapons". And the answer is "you probably get killed. Unless you are on an infinitely sized, mostly open map."

I have seen a lot of discussions around here that revolve around how the way to avoid getting cut up at short range by lasers, lasers, lasers is to use long range weapons and keep away from your opponent. It turns out that, in reality, that isn't that viable of a plan (that this was mostly just an illustration of). Again, if you have really fast mechs with nothing by long range guns, and an infinitely sized map that doesn't have a lot of terrain on it, you can keep the range open and shoot at long range, and avoid the close range death of AC20s and MLs. But if the map has an edge and any reasonably significant terrain, you are going to get caught in the corner and mugged. At which point you'll really wish you had some AC20s and MLs.

[Kovax]

Fast snipers work really well as a "hammer", but ideally that hammer needs an anvil.   You committed everything to the one element, while ignoring the other.

With ridiculously high gunnery skills, long-range weapons become a lot more viable, but in the hands of "Regular" pilots, while they may be fine for support, you need something solid to support.  Having your sniper pick on units which are already focused on a more immediate threat is a way of massing fire on a target, without requiring massive armor for the sniper.  Having a line of brawlers with massive armor at point-blank range is another way.

[GreekFire]

To be frank, I think you can go 100% long range weapons. It leads to a tougher game, and you have to pay closer attention to your positioning and plan a bit more ahead of time.

I'll say something that I firmly believe: I think that the real issue of the game was that you got hard-countered by what your opponent brought. We're looking at three 'Mechs with a Precision/TargComp combo, something that severely reduces your effectiveness at the inner ranges that you could otherwise fight at (eg: range 4-6, ranges 8-9). Instead, this combo forces you to fight at hexes 7 or 10+. Anything else...and you're at a disadvantage number-wise.

Without the precision/targcomp combo, fighting at ranges 4-6 (medium range for the AC/20) would have looked like this:

Code: [Select]

ERPPC: 4(base gunnery) + 3(jumped) + 2(enemy movement) = 9 to-hit.
AC/20: 4(base gunnery) + 2(ran) + 3(enemy movement) + 2(medium range) = 11 to-hit.
Completely viable. Even with a TarComp on the AC/20 you're looking at 9s vs 10s, where you still have an advantage and no ammo to hold you back. But with Precision, things change:

Code: [Select]

ERPPC: 4(base gunnery) + 3(jumped) + 2(enemy movement) = 9 to-hit.
AC/20: 4(base gunnery) + 2(ran) + 3(enemy movement) +2 (medium range) - 1(tarcomp) - 2(precision) = 8 to-hit.
Yikes. Suddenly...hexes 1-6 are a danger zone. Cover becomes a necessity every time you move, otherwise you're rolling worse than your opponent. Hexes 8-9 have you rolling 11s vs the AC/20 10s. And this is where the map size limits you. Without that TarComp/Precision duo, and with ranges 4-6 open to you, it would have been much harder to get pinned down into a corner and killed.

How can you play a mobile ranged game against a force like the one your opponent brought? Firstly, you need to be working with an advantage on your end. If you jump, jumping for an even modifier isn't enough. You need to jump 7+ hexes. Run? Run 7+ hexes as well. Walk? Walk 5+ hexes. That makes things even. If you have your own TarComp, or an even better speed (eg: Walking 7+ hexes, running 10+ hexes) then you start having a greater advantage. I'd say canon 'Mechs that I like for this type of play are the Men Shen, Lightray, Wraith, etc. There's lots of them.

Then...an array of short-ranged weapons to use as back-up firepower can't hurt. This is for when you're doing a breakout, ideally when you've won initiative. You want to do backstabs, increase the amount of firepower you're throwing out (forcing PSRs) and critseek to take advantage of the damage you've dealt so far. Good examples of this can be seen on the Razorback, Gurkha or Cicada.

Finally, if your opponent is regularly fielding precision/tarcomp equipment, using things like Stealth Armor to even the odds can help. Intelligent use of cover is another one - one of the major advantages of jump jets is that it allows you to get your greatest to-hit modifiers (like jumping 5 hexes, for example) while also exploiting light or heavy woods - something that slower ground-based 'Mechs can't do well.

[Nahuris]

Long range combat is essentially a non-starter in Battletech unless you use something like SG LRMs or something, and even then it's tough to make work.

You have to realize, there are no real long range weapons in BT. There are weapons with longer ranges than others, but there is no weapon I know of that's actually better off at 25 hexes than 7, say. The LRM, with the word Long in the name, should want enemies to be far away and kept there - but the sweet spot for actually hitting is at 7 hexes. The Light Gauss Rifle and ERPPC also want you to be closer. The ERPPC doesn't even mind if you're directly adjacent.

You might think "Wait, what about C3?" Well, how does C3 work? It makes the range count as shorter. BTW, if you like C3, use the extreme range rules and exploit them ruthlessly.

Also keep in mind that C3 requires a spotter with LOS on the target----- which means someone is getting hurt to provide that "short" range for the others.

Nahuris

[Nahuris]

To be frank, I think you can go 100% long range weapons. It leads to a tougher game, and you have to pay closer attention to your positioning and plan a bit more ahead of time.

I'll say something that I firmly believe: I think that the real issue of the game was that you got hard-countered by what your opponent brought. We're looking at three 'Mechs with a Precision/TargComp combo, something that severely reduces your effectiveness at the inner ranges that you could otherwise fight at (eg: range 4-6, ranges 8-9). Instead, this combo forces you to fight at hexes 7 or 10+. Anything else...and you're at a disadvantage number-wise.

Without the precision/targcomp combo, fighting at ranges 4-6 (medium range for the AC/20) would have looked like this:

Code: [Select]

ERPPC: 4(base gunnery) + 3(jumped) + 2(enemy movement) = 9 to-hit.
AC/20: 4(base gunnery) + 2(ran) + 3(enemy movement) + 2(medium range) = 11 to-hit.
Completely viable. Even with a TarComp on the AC/20 you're looking at 9s vs 10s, where you still have an advantage and no ammo to hold you back. But with Precision, things change:

Code: [Select]

ERPPC: 4(base gunnery) + 3(jumped) + 2(enemy movement) = 9 to-hit.
AC/20: 4(base gunnery) + 2(ran) + 3(enemy movement) +2 (medium range) - 1(tarcomp) - 2(precision) = 8 to-hit.
Yikes. Suddenly...hexes 1-6 are a danger zone. Cover becomes a necessity every time you move, otherwise you're rolling worse than your opponent. Hexes 8-9 have you rolling 11s vs the AC/20 10s. And this is where the map size limits you. Without that TarComp/Precision duo, and with ranges 4-6 open to you, it would have been much harder to get pinned down into a corner and killed.

How can you play a mobile ranged game against a force like the one your opponent brought? Firstly, you need to be working with an advantage on your end. If you jump, jumping for an even modifier isn't enough. You need to jump 7+ hexes. Run? Run 7+ hexes as well. Walk? Walk 5+ hexes. That makes things even. If you have your own TarComp, or an even better speed (eg: Walking 7+ hexes, running 10+ hexes) then you start having a greater advantage. I'd say canon 'Mechs that I like for this type of play are the Men Shen, Lightray, Wraith, etc. There's lots of them.

Then...an array of short-ranged weapons to use as back-up firepower can't hurt. This is for when you're doing a breakout, ideally when you've won initiative. You want to do backstabs, increase the amount of firepower you're throwing out (forcing PSRs) and critseek to take advantage of the damage you've dealt so far. Good examples of this can be seen on the Razorback, Gurkha or Cicada.

Finally, if your opponent is regularly fielding precision/tarcomp equipment, using things like Stealth Armor to even the odds can help. Intelligent use of cover is another one - one of the major advantages of jump jets is that it allows you to get your greatest to-hit modifiers (like jumping 5 hexes, for example) while also exploiting light or heavy woods - something that slower ground-based 'Mechs can't do well.

+1

Thanks Greekfire, you said it far better than I did.

Nahuris

[bakija]

I'll say something that I firmly believe: I think that the real issue of the game was that you got hard-countered by what your opponent brought. We're looking at three 'Mechs with a Precision/TargComp combo, something that severely reduces your effectiveness at the inner ranges that you could otherwise fight at (eg: range 4-6, ranges 8-9). Instead, this combo forces you to fight at hexes 7 or 10+. Anything else...and you're at a disadvantage number-wise.

This is all true. It also seems problematic that BV does not account for precision ammo--well, if you have 4 tons of ammo so that the AC20 with precision ammo has 8 shots, you are paying twice as much BV for ammo as you are for 2 tons of non-precision, but the BV difference in question is really minimal (+44 BV, before modifiers, which turns into, probably, 60-70 total BV upgrade for what are insanely effective guns; TCs add 25% to the BV of a given gun for a -1 to hit; adding vastly less than that for an additional -2 to hit is just silly).

Without the precision/targcomp combo, fighting at ranges 4-6 (medium range for the AC/20) would have looked like this:
ERPPC: 4(base gunnery) + 3(jumped) + 2(enemy movement) = 9 to-hit.
AC/20: 4(base gunnery) + 2(ran) + 3(enemy movement) + 2(medium range) = 11 to-hit.

Yep. That's what I was hoping for. But, well, I forgot that my opponent might have precision ammo for AC20's...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  When using jumping 'Mechs, it has to jump at least 5 to break even, that is, the firing penalty for you and the enemy's to hit penalty are at least the same. To optimize a jumping 'Mech the ideal terrain would have woods and hills to get the +1/+2 Light/Heavy woods modifier and the +1 cover mod after you jump.
 
  I played in a tournament against a couple of kids our group called "The Masakari Brothers" as that was their favorite 'Mech to use, no matter what the scenario. We were doing the Adders vs Ravens string of tournaments and I would play-test scenarios on MegaMek using various designs to specifically fight those two in their fave machines -If you haven't tried MegaMek, I highly recommend it, if you are a serious gamer and have an idea of your opponent's forces, it will certainly help hone your tactical skills.
  To face the Masakari with its TC and PPCs, I picked the second-line Viper, or Black Python, with its TC and twin Clans LPLs, and 5/8/5 movement. The tabletop terrain was perfect...the GM practically tailored the battlefield to my chosen specifications: Stands of light/heavy woods spaced 5 inches apart so I spent the scenario jumping from heavy woods to heavy woods:

Masakari: Gunnery 3, walk +1, Medium range +2, Target jumped +3, Heavy woods +2, TC -1 = 10 to hit
Viper: Gunnery 3, Jump +3, Target walked +2, Medium range +2, TC -1, LPL -2 = 7 to hit

  I took down the first brother with three engine hits to the CT and drove the other brother, who thought standing still would be better (he needed 9 and I needed 5...so I pulled back to long range) and I drove him from the field with torso internals exposed, the victory all the sweeter using a Second-line 'Mech to defeat Clan Omnis that outweighed the Viper by 10 tons.

  Things got very ugly when I ran a Clan Burrock pre-invasion campaign, where the players only fought other Clanners, using strict Zell rules. I wouldn't allow any of the players to use any custom designs until they proved themselves worthy by distinguishing themselves in combat. Needless to say, some of the players never were permitted to use custom designs until one of the players managed to defeat the trinary commander in a trial of position, whereupon he allowed certain modifications to all the trinary's Omnis. By then, the campaign had progress long enough for the character to purchase the "Jumping Jack" special ability (all jumps +1 TN).

  He challenged the trinary commander using a modified Timber Wolf, while the commander piloted a Daishi. The TW sported 5 Streak SRM6s, moved 5/8/5 and had ECM. The TW managed to close and would aim high whenever the total to-hit number was 7 or less. Imagine when all the missiles hit, using the punch table -a 6 on the d6 would be a head hit, pilot injury and consciousness roll...out of 30d6. The commander lost consciousness on the first volley. From then on, the new trinary commander would strongly suggest that his opponent have his autoeject activated, if just to take a live bondsman.

[mutantmagnet]

You did it wrong.

If you want to play the range game you have to be slower than your opponent or significantly faster.

Your opponent had

1x70 ton 4/6 guy with a Gauss Rifle, HPPC, and LAC5 w/precision ammo, TC.
2x60 ton 5/8 guys with AC20 w/precision ammo and a MPL, TC.
1x40 ton 7/11 guy with a bunch of SRM4s and infernos.


You should've gone with either a bunch of 4/6 3/5 mechs and always have more long range guns than he does but balanced to have enough short range power.

Alternatively your force should be at minimum 7/11 or 6/9/6 depending on terrain.

If you want to play the range game with mobility you need a significant difference in speed generally a 2 walk MP difference when your opponents is using anything at or below 8/12. Otherwise you need a 3 walk MP difference at higher speeds. If you have to use jump jets it better because of how a map is designed.


I don't know what advanced rules you use but I pretty much didn't need to rely on C3 because of smoke ammunition alone. I refused to use the old ghost targets system because it was hilariously broken but the revised errata version is better balanced and still worth using to improve your modifiers. Also keep in mind that if you are going to play the ranged game with fast units you need to be ammo efficient. You can use more than energy weapons depending on your rival's defensive factors.

[bakija]

You did it wrong.

If you want to play the range game you have to be slower than your opponent or significantly faster.

I didn't know what my opponent was going to be using until we set up our forces on the map.

You should've gone with either a bunch of 4/6 3/5 mechs and always have more long range guns than he does but balanced to have enough short range power.

If my opponent had kindly told me what he was bringing *before* I designed and selected my forces, I'd be right there with you.

Alternatively your force should be at minimum 7/11 or 6/9/6 depending on terrain.

Much like my opponent's force, I didn't know what the terrain was (or how it would impact my force as opposed to my opponent's force) before designing and selecting my force. The maps were essentially random and determined after designing and selecting our forces.

Like, yes--in situations where you know what your opponent is bringing to the fight, and what maps you are playing on before you design and select your forces, you can totally design and select the things that work the best for that situation. If, however, you are designing and selecting forces blind, and then ending up on a random selection of maps, well, things don't necessarily work out the way you'd like.