Author Topic: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?  (Read 40482 times)

Scotty

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #210 on: 22 May 2018, 12:27:29 »
AB, that response was mostly to Scotty's post for #1, #2 & #6- my point was how I attack or defend/play a unit depends on the specifics.  My group has been playing a 1v1 tournament with escalating amounts (5k in 2 hours, 10k in 3 hours & 15k in 4 hours) and I ran a Hammerhands 5D . . . one game I started taking a lot of hits on my left arm.  SOP was using 1 precision AC/10 round from each arm which had meant by the end of the time the arms bins would be empty.  Well, because its armor had started taking a pounding I shifted to firing that arm dry so when I took a crit b/c the armor was gone the bins would be empty.  I do not want that level of detail going away.

This isn't actually a result of granularity or detail, though.  Not in and of itself.  The tactical decision "I should expend the ammunition on my damaged side first to reduce the risk of explosion" is entirely doable without including a full body crit chart or individual crit space results on top of multiple layers of determining crit results.

It's a situation in which we are so used to having to sift through so much bloat and over engineered rules that we believe that the bloat is what we like, when it's (probably) really the results underneath it all.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #211 on: 22 May 2018, 13:20:15 »
Gauss rifle ammo, I balance it between bins to make sure a crit does not remove a full stack and leave me with a single round or two.

I also understand that the way crits are done is about setting probability . . . and while it may be annoying to hit with 16 SRMs and get a single crit chance that does not pan out if you just gave automatic crits then it does restructure the game and removes some of the random or luck factor.  Everyone remembers when they had a mech that seemed to be a TAC magnet or in the other direction 'only armor left was on the head, but nothing vital took a critical hit!'
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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #212 on: 22 May 2018, 15:12:56 »
Truthfully, I am OK with the game, as-is. Is it clunky? Yes, but there are lots of other games on the market which already fill the niche of a fast-playing miniatures game. Some are even giant-robot themed.

What are the giant robot themed games?  I'm seriously interested.  PM me if you want too.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #213 on: 22 May 2018, 15:35:54 »
What are the giant robot themed games?  I'm seriously interested.  PM me if you want too.

I think he's mostly referring to Warmachine.
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klarg1

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #214 on: 22 May 2018, 16:09:30 »
I think he's mostly referring to Warmachine.

That, CAV:SO, Infinity, who knows what else (Is Heavy Gear still a thing?). Weta workshop Kickstarted a robot combat board game recently that is practically a Solaris 7 spinoff. Dropzone Commander has plenty of walkers too, although they are not the core theme.

Scotty

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #215 on: 22 May 2018, 16:32:06 »
Gauss rifle ammo, I balance it between bins to make sure a crit does not remove a full stack and leave me with a single round or two.

I also understand that the way crits are done is about setting probability . . . and while it may be annoying to hit with 16 SRMs and get a single crit chance that does not pan out if you just gave automatic crits then it does restructure the game and removes some of the random or luck factor.  Everyone remembers when they had a mech that seemed to be a TAC magnet or in the other direction 'only armor left was on the head, but nothing vital took a critical hit!'

Absolutely nowhere did I suggest crits be automatic.  Rather, I suggested that crit results tables be standardized so that individual components no longer need to be tracked on a separate (and huge) section of the record sheet in order to resolve them.
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iamfanboy

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #216 on: 22 May 2018, 18:04:22 »
Absolutely nowhere did I suggest crits be automatic.  Rather, I suggested that crit results tables be standardized so that individual components no longer need to be tracked on a separate (and huge) section of the record sheet in order to resolve them.
Hm, so when a critical hit is rolled, it's on a table something like (for arms, as an example):

1-2: Arm actuators
3-4: Bulkiest item
5: Second bulkiest item
6: chosen by attacker/defender, depending on rules

And have the current Critical Hit table be something behind the scenes, done in the design phase but not on the actual record sheet?

1) Separate unit activations.  Pick a unit, move, shoot, resolve effects, move on.  Alternate activations with your opponent.  Allow weapons to be fired at any point during a unit's movement.  This helps prevent having large stretches of time where nothing interactive happens for multiple players, and also makes high speed skirmishers and harassers useful even as overall tonnage goes up on both sides.
Agreed. I think Paul missed the point where the effects of combat still don't happen until the end phase, so no unit is preemptively destroyed, but it means that each model is a 'one-and-done' affair that you can mark.

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3) Remove TMM as a concept linked to hexes entered or distance moved.  Make it either an intrinsic quality of a 'Mech (B-), a quality of having moved or being able to move (B+), or give a few options for players to pick between that meter defensive movement against boosting offensive capability (A+).  This prevents requiring micromanagement of every single MP expended to make Lights worth using and significantly speeds the movement phase of every activation.
Interesting. I'd want to see more detail on this. But the difference between Run and Walk is, technically, what you're talking about with A+.

On the whole, though, it isn't a big deal to count hexes and turns and so on - every game with a board does it, and it's a negligible time waste.

However, giving a flat TMM to units based on their speed, with a bonus TMM depending on whether they walked or jumped, would be a raised amount of detail from Alpha Strike without giving up too much granularity, and it would speed up the affair of "How hard is the target to hit?" 

And despite what Paul thinks, removing the flat TMM from Alpha Strike is an optional rule.

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4) Significantly reduce extra movement costs for most terrain types.  Declare more terrain types impassable.  Coupled with 3), make committing to major maneuvers into a "Should I/Shouldn't I?" instead of five minutes calculating whether X or Y combination of turns and new hexes entered gives optimal TMM and reduces penalties.
Simplifying the movement penalty charts would do good work too - either it's open (no penalty or bonus), impeded (half movement or +1 MP cost, covers half-depth water, going up hills, going through woods), or impassible (+2 MP cost, covers walking through buildings, full depth water, climbing up cliffs), with the notation that only 'Mechs can do impassible terrain unless the specific unit has an exception - subs for full depth water, Kangas and jumping for Impassible, and so on.

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5) Streamline and simplify damage and armor values.  Armor/Structure values are significantly inflated from where they need to be to function in nigh identical fashion.  Pick a weapon to operate as a baseline (why hello there, Medium Laser), and rebalance using that value as either "1" or "2".  Recalculate armor and weapon damage accordingly.  Don't hesitate to round or fudge details.  Rework cluster weapons to remove the cluster roll entirely.  When the dust settles, Light 'Mechs have 1-3 armor points in a given location, high end Assaults can get up to 8 or so.
So. I like the idea and I'd endorse it, but...

Part of the problem is the significant amount of work it would take to do on what, 3500 different units? Software could probably be written to put a datasheet in one end and have it poop out the new stats, but it would add exponentially to the work required - there's so much of the GAME bound up in the design rules, and it would mean reprinting and revising more than just the record sheets. The TROs would now be entirely obsolete, for example.

I think that if I had my druthers, I'd leave the stat blocks alone, at least for a long time, and focus on the core rules.

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6) Streamline heat values and the heat scale.  Remove "empty" heat levels on the scale, re-normalize starting at 1 going up to about 10.  Cut heatsinks in half, make every single point on the heat scale matter.  Rework weapon heat to take this into account, using a baseline and balancing off that (Medium Laser!  You shouldn't have).  Heat happens immediately upon finishing an activation.  Combined with 2) and 5), record sheets become simpler overnight.  You can now fit 4-6 on a single page of A4 paper.
Now THIS, on the other hand, could be done without invalidating 20+ TROs, tons of design rules, and could be accomplished with some white-out on old record sheets. Divide heat values by 3, rounding down? So an ERLL becomes 4 heat, an ERPPC becomes 5 heat, and a Gauss Rifle becomes 0.

The basic idea of heat is that it's a tradeoff: for a short-term damage output NOW, you reduce your ability to deal damage in the future. Any new heat rules should remember this, without going as far as Alpha Strike did.

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7) Breaking the mold on my changes so far: expand physical attacks.  "Choose punch or kick, but kick is almost always better and if you don't have X or Y optional equipment kicks are absolutely always better" isn't really a choice for 90% of 'Mechs.  Alternating activations would also make physical attack choices even more important, especially if it becomes an either/or choice and not a "both" choice.  Do you fire all guns as you run by, or do you slide tackle the Longbow and restrict its movement choices the next time it gets up while doing some damage?  Grapple, maybe to keep it in place?  Pick a flavor you like and imagine it, as long as the end result is "kicks aren't the only real option in 90% of circumstances".
Ugh. One option ALWAYS ends up being better, or else you end up with a confusing mess - take the Warmachine Power Attack rules, of which there are 8 different ones, each of which are highly situational, and which you forget about 90% of the time. Battletech doesn't fuff around, and that makes it a surprisingly quick thing.

Honestly, reducing the damage of kicks would help some. Kicks are just too strong, and focus on a very specific area so you don't have to worry about it randomly spattering across the various locations ineffectively.

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8) Include morale/leadership in some fashion.  BattleTech fights are, without significant hemming and hawing beforehand, fights to the death with no exception.  This does not reflect any fluff written prior to about 3058 or so.  This doesn't mean "roll dice to see if you lose the game this turn", it's "your pilot has a lot of holes in their armor and their lancemate just went down, see whether they keep pressing the attack."
Random roll morale is always touchy. Technically speaking, infantry should ALWAYS be running away from the 100-ton firebreathing monster charging at them with a huge axe!

But honestly, forced withdrawal type rules, where if a location on a 'Mech is breached the pilot retreats rather than risk his expensive machine, would also speed up games. Maybe having "fight to the death" as an additional SPA, like below.

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9) Enormously expand SPAs, make them more interesting than niche -1 to hit in such and such circumstance.  Include them in standard level rules.  Make pilots as memorable as their 'Mechs, without making them more valuable than their 'Mechs.
Yes. Pilots should matter as much, if not more, than their 'Mechs. It's a game of armored combat, of knights whose steed and armor are the same damn thing, and the game has NEVER reflected that. Having something like Alpha Strike, where a limited number of pilots can take SPAs, and expanding lance formations to give them under certain circumstances, would be boss.

The only problem is... how do you balance it points-wise? Maybe before you can get X SPA for an assault 'Mech, you have to HAVE that many assault 'Mechs? I dunno. I'd rather set this idea aside to be explored further later.


So you see? Just because we don't necessarily all have the same IDEAS doesn't mean talking is COMPLETELY worthless.

Scotty

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #217 on: 23 May 2018, 00:07:31 »
I would actually be suggesting the "damage happens immediately" method here.  Despite Paul's (valid, though I disagree) opinion, I think it opens up a much more interesting playing field dynamic full of choices that have immediate and tangible consequences.  Do you activate your Assault 'Mech first for the most damage per activation, or do you pick the Medium that took a pounding last turn and won't get to go if you don't move it now?  Do you take the magnificent flanking slash with your Light striker at the end of one turn and then the beginning of the next, or do you keep it open for targets of opportunity as a turn goes on?  Do you activate your badly overheating 'Mech now so that your opponent can't force it into shutdown before you get to go again?

The critical hit table I had in mind was closer to:

2-6: No Critical Hit
7-8: Minor Actuator Damage (+1 for to-hit/PSRs)
9: Major Actuator Damage (+2 for to-hit/PSRs)
10: Weapon Destroyed (treat as "No Critical" if no weapons in location); 10+ check to see if ammo detonates (if ammo using weapon) (explosion deals one shot's damage)
11: Limb Crippled/Gyro Hit! (Limb is "destroyed" for usage purposes, but can still take damage; Gyro hit can happen on any torso section)
12: Limb blown off/Engine Hit! (Limb is completely destroyed.  Engine hit can happen on any torso section)

There's still a definite chance to avoid the crit happening, but there's no more rolling to find individual crit slots (which, despite what I'm sure some people will chime in with, can absolutely take forever, especially as crits mount).  It reduces a minimum of three separate dice rolls (confirm, upper/lower, slot) to a maximum of one for similar effects.

When it comes to movement, I'd consider moving to something along the lines of "Defensive", "Aggressive", and "Balanced".  Defensive would increase TMM but impart no bonus to hit chances, Aggressive would increase hit chances but provide no bonus to TMM, and Balanced would provide smaller bonuses to both (or, if you prefer to keep things game-state-neutral, have Balanced provide no penalties or bonuses and shift Defensive/Aggressive down to match).  You could probably successfully argue this doesn't change the Walk/Run/Jump paradigm on its own, but I'd probably go radical with it and remove the concept of different ground speed modes entirely.  You're either using ground movement or jump movement (as a 'Mech).  You'll probably note a major design philosophy from me that choices should have major game-state consequences, and a movement away from the "sliding scale of minor bonuses/penalties".

When it comes to specifics on movement, I'm willing to be convinced.  One thing that absolutely drags the game to a crawl is a player who spends five minutes counting out every possible viable move one at a time.  I can't find it in me to condemn someone who works things out visibly, but I absolutely think that the process needs to be simplified in some way to prevent that kind of player-interactivity roadblock.

Extant Record Sheets delenda est.  The unbreakable imperative to keep them unchanged or impacted as little as possible has led directly to the stagnation in the game's mechanics.  If you want a volunteer to do them all, sign me up.  That said: the number of extant units is also ridiculous, and absolutely a bar to entry and it could use some significant pruning too.

When it comes to physicals, making them useful means having different game state effects for each.  Power attacks in Warmahordes all have the same general game-state effect - you hit harder for some resource cost.  Off the top of my head if I were redoing them right here, damage values would have to be redone completely (to such an extent that I'd probably replace tonnage as the operative calculation with some construction options), and the game state effects would have to be distinct (and worth giving up weapon attacks for, or at least competing).  Punches could be more accurate (kicks being more accurate has always boggled my mind) and throw off opposing gunfire (but leave opposing physicals less affected - forcing a choice between reduced range damage output and shifting target priorities), or maybe you can make called shots at different parts of a 'Mech for different effects.  On this front I'm less willing to be convinced, but more willing to be reasoned with. :)

Forced withdrawal is decent, but I think it should be a roll check rather than a hard and fast "pilots will always withdraw under X circumstances" because that can't be true across a not-insignificant portion of a spiral arm without straining belief.  And it should be recoverable if the tide of battle swings.

As for SPAs: Points-cost balance comes after mechanics are decided.  I'd personally like to see every Veteran pilot sporting at least one.  Regular pilots who've been around a while should have one.  A Green pilot who's got One Cool Trick could have one.  The kind of SPAs I'm talking about are things along the lines of "Once per game, when determining hit locations, you may roll twice and choose either result".  "Once per game, you may reroll a failed hit".  "Once per game, when you would fail a morale check, automatically pass instead".  Things that you could conceivably have half a dozen spread over a Lance and still not have them tilt the stage out of balance.
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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #218 on: 23 May 2018, 01:18:39 »
11: Limb Crippled/Gyro Hit! (Limb is "destroyed" for usage purposes, but can still take damage; Gyro hit can happen on any torso section)
12: Limb blown off/Engine Hit! (Limb is completely destroyed.  Engine hit can happen on any torso section)

Did zombie mechs eat your family or something?
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Charistoph

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #219 on: 23 May 2018, 01:32:37 »
I would actually be suggesting the "damage happens immediately" method here.  Despite Paul's (valid, though I disagree) opinion, I think it opens up a much more interesting playing field dynamic full of choices that have immediate and tangible consequences.  Do you activate your Assault 'Mech first for the most damage per activation, or do you pick the Medium that took a pounding last turn and won't get to go if you don't move it now?  Do you take the magnificent flanking slash with your Light striker at the end of one turn and then the beginning of the next, or do you keep it open for targets of opportunity as a turn goes on?  Do you activate your badly overheating 'Mech now so that your opponent can't force it into shutdown before you get to go again?

I'll just say this, the current/classic activation method of Battletech would solve a lot of problems for games like Warhammer 40K, and removed the need for some very odd rule interactions and some sever rule changes over some of their editions.
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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #220 on: 23 May 2018, 02:34:03 »
If we're indulging in blue-sky thinking here...

I'd agree that determining criticals is one of the biggest headache in terms of book-keeping, especially for missile-type weapons. The need to sandpaper damage off a Mech before it goes down contributes to longer games, which is a disincentive for those with limited playtime. As a solution, could the game expand on the BAR concept, and use that instead of an armor value?

e.g.
- Each hit location has a BAR value, say 2-20
- When a weapon hits the location, compare the damage value against the BAR value
- If less than BAR, permanently reduce the BAR value by 1.
- If equal or greater, reduce the BAR by 1 AND roll on the critical table
This would function much closer to the way tank armor works in the real world--i.e. tanks are usually OK unless the round penetrates, in which case they're in fairly serious trouble.
(Yes, would require total rewriting of every TRO, but blue sky folks, blue sky)

Crit rolls could be simplified as suggested up thread, e.g. no critical, minor damage, major damage, minor component in that location destroyed, major component in that location destroyed, double crit (roll again twice), location destroyed.

Going further, since weapon damage is now being used as a measure of armor penetration ability rather than raw amount of damage inflicted, instead of internal structure, how about each location can take, say, 3 critical hits. (This is in line with the one crit, two crit, limb blown off pattern.)
So once the BAR has been penetrated three times (or otherwise received a total 3 crits), that location is considered destroyed, and damage transferred inwards.

The resulting game would play very differently, but that still gives you the gritty damage-by-section of BT while speeding up damage and criticals. 
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Straw Boss

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #221 on: 23 May 2018, 02:48:48 »
...Battletech doesn't exist in a vacuum; it has an entire universe setting, in which we are explicitly told multiple times that 10-12 model battles are commonplace.... So, any rule changes should streamline the game to the point where company-on-company becomes a practical playtime.

While i am not about changing BattleTech (at all). This is solid logic.
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Scotty

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #222 on: 23 May 2018, 06:24:35 »
I'll just say this, the current/classic activation method of Battletech would solve a lot of problems for games like Warhammer 40K, and removed the need for some very odd rule interactions and some sever rule changes over some of their editions.

Yeah, and a dilapidated junker from the mid-90s would be better than one from the early 80s. That doesn't make it a good car.

It'd also make a long game take even longer, which isn't a great selling point.
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Drewbacca

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #223 on: 23 May 2018, 07:01:29 »
Ok, I seriously need to ask, what is the hurry? Why should a game go faster? What benefit is gained other than either calling it a night sooner or playing more than one game in the night. My games tend to quick enough as is. I would prefer to play a gamr where I can relax and have fun rather than rush through everything, and have more time to think about what I am going to do. Battletech is not chess. I  my opinion it is fast enough.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #224 on: 23 May 2018, 07:08:50 »
It depends on who you're playing against.  I was once playing the first scenario in the Fall of Terra North America campaign against someone who tried to think twelve moves ahead and calculate every angle.  Moving his eight 'Mechs took him over an hour of pondering.  I then moved my eight 'Mechs in about two minutes.  After frowning for a bit, he commented, "Hmmmmm.   You didn't do what I was expecting.  I'll have to rethink my whole strategy."

To which I responded, "No!  No!  Wait!  What did you think I was going to do?  I'll do that!"
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Drewbacca

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #225 on: 23 May 2018, 07:12:10 »
But that has nothing to do with the rules that is the player. No need to change tje game because some people take a long time.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #226 on: 23 May 2018, 07:21:49 »
Since I already opened my mouth, I might as well put in my wishlist for a faster, more approachable game:

1) Separate unit activations.  Pick a unit, move, shoot, resolve effects, move on.  Alternate activations with your opponent.  Allow weapons to be fired at any point during a unit's movement.  This helps prevent having large stretches of time where nothing interactive happens for multiple players, and also makes high speed skirmishers and harassers useful even as overall tonnage goes up on both sides.
Assault mechs uber alles.

IIRC, Harebrained Schemes faced a similar issue with the computer game. Can't remember how they solved it, but that might be something to look into.

But that has nothing to do with the rules that is the player. No need to change tje game because some people take a long time.

Agreed. That's PEBCAT, not the game.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2018, 07:30:13 by mbear »
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #227 on: 23 May 2018, 07:32:40 »
Assault mechs uber alles.


IIRC, Harebrained Schemes faced a similar issue with the computer game. Can't remember how they solved it, but that might be something to look into.

Basically, Assaults move last.  But it didn't solve the issue per say, since there's a hard limit of 4 'Mechs there's no real reason not to go full Assaults (maybe with a Grasshopper thrown in as a heavy "scout").

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #228 on: 23 May 2018, 07:40:01 »
It also doesn't solve the "long periods of time where one player isn't actually playing very much at all" problem.
Ok, I seriously need to ask, what is the hurry? Why should a game go faster? What benefit is gained other than either calling it a night sooner or playing more than one game in the night. My games tend to quick enough as is. I would prefer to play a gamr where I can relax and have fun rather than rush through everything, and have more time to think about what I am going to do. Battletech is not chess. I  my opinion it is fast enough.

This sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what speed of play is. Assume as an example you have two games, one which commonly takes four hours to play, and one that takes three.  If you have exactly four hours of time during your next scheduled game, which one are you going to be able to take your time and relax while playing?  Hint: it's not the one that takes four hours, even if that mark possible to meet in the time allotted.
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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #229 on: 23 May 2018, 07:42:23 »
If we're indulging in blue-sky thinking here...

I'd agree that determining criticals is one of the biggest headache in terms of book-keeping, especially for missile-type weapons. The need to sandpaper damage off a Mech before it goes down contributes to longer games, which is a disincentive for those with limited playtime. As a solution, could the game expand on the BAR concept, and use that instead of an armor value?

e.g.
- Each hit location has a BAR value, say 2-20
- When a weapon hits the location, compare the damage value against the BAR value
- If less than BAR, permanently reduce the BAR value by 1.
- If equal or greater, reduce the BAR by 1 AND roll on the critical table
This would function much closer to the way tank armor works in the real world--i.e. tanks are usually OK unless the round penetrates, in which case they're in fairly serious trouble.
(Yes, would require total rewriting of every TRO, but blue sky folks, blue sky)

I love everything about that except:
Quote
- If less than BAR, permanently reduce the BAR value by 1.

IMO, if the weapon damage is below the BAR threshold, there should be at least a chance that the attack does nothing to the target.

Ok, I seriously need to ask, what is the hurry? Why should a game go faster? What benefit is gained other than either calling it a night sooner or playing more than one game in the night. My games tend to quick enough as is. I would prefer to play a gamr where I can relax and have fun rather than rush through everything, and have more time to think about what I am going to do. Battletech is not chess. I  my opinion it is fast enough.

Two possibilities...

1) What kind of game engine sells these day?  Is there a viable market for a slow game like Battletech? If not, can we, the veteran players, keep funding these products without any interest from any new players?  I don't expect the system to change.  And that's fine.  It's not like I'm going to leave in a huff.  But, if the overwhelming majority of the tabletop game market prefers a faster game, is the future of Battletech in jeopardy if it doesn't change?

2) I only speak for myself (hopefully that is obvious by now), but I have absolutely no chance of completing a Battletech game that is not run in Megamek.  A slow game was fine when I was in high school and college and had free time on my hands, but with a job, family, house, etc... the idea of spending an entire afternoon on a single match is a pipe dream at best.  Now... is that a good enough reason for CGL to change the formula?  of course not.  I'm one guy with bad ideas.  If that becomes a trend, though, if veteran players stop supporting the game because they don't have time to play it, then we're in a whole different world of problems.
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Nicoli

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #230 on: 23 May 2018, 07:50:51 »
Ok, I seriously need to ask, what is the hurry? Why should a game go faster? What benefit is gained other than either calling it a night sooner or playing more than one game in the night. My games tend to quick enough as is. I would prefer to play a gamr where I can relax and have fun rather than rush through everything, and have more time to think about what I am going to do. Battletech is not chess. I  my opinion it is fast enough.
It depends on why the game is long. Twilight Imperium takes forever to play, 3-8 hours, but the length comes from all the choices and player bartering you are doing. Resolving any individual action is really quick though.

For Battletech, I see it as the opposite. It takes almost no time for me to make my choices, what takes forever is resolving the effects of my choices. I mean I've changed an LB-X20 hit to a miss because I rolled a 12 on the cluster hit table.
Basically, Assaults move last.  But it didn't solve the issue per say, since there's a hard limit of 4 'Mechs there's no real reason not to go full Assaults (maybe with a Grasshopper thrown in as a heavy "scout").
well this will always be the case if your only limit is four mechs. This is why number of units should never be the only list design requirement.

Drewbacca

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #231 on: 23 May 2018, 08:00:43 »
Cluster hits for a LB-X take about a minute or two to roll and mark even if you hit with all twenty. Roll the dice, check the chart, mark the circles.

I am sorry. I fail to see how that is hard ir how it takes an excessively long time. As long as both players are paying attention that should ne now problem. Also, and I am trying not tobspund rude here, but that is the cost of using LB-X, rolling dice.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #232 on: 23 May 2018, 08:13:22 »
Cluster hits for a LB-X take about a minute or two to roll and mark even if you hit with all twenty. Roll the dice, check the chart, mark the circles.

I am sorry. I fail to see how that is hard ir how it takes an excessively long time. As long as both players are paying attention that should ne now problem. Also, and I am trying not tobspund rude here, but that is the cost of using LB-X, rolling dice.

The point is, it shouldn't be a cost to use the weapon. The cost was already paid in weight, ammo, and BV2. Rolling extra dice isn't a *cost* it's a chore.

nckestrel

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #233 on: 23 May 2018, 08:47:50 »
It also doesn't solve the "long periods of time where one player isn't actually playing very much at all" problem.
This sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what speed of play is. Assume as an example you have two games, one which commonly takes four hours to play, and one that takes three.  If you have exactly four hours of time during your next scheduled game, which one are you going to be able to take your time and relax while playing?  Hint: it's not the one that takes four hours, even if that mark possible to meet in the time allotted.

My son and I often go to the local game store to play something from their large game library.  I'm so sick of the time estimates games give.  Damn Dungeon Lords and it's "90 minutes".  We played the first game for an hour and a half, and were only half way through.  Figured the next time we had over two hours, and we'd played it before so it would go quicker....two hours in and we're only half way through.  (The second time we had three players instead of two.)
There's no way that game is 90 minutes.  Maybe if you've played it several dozen times, but then you don't need the damn box to tell you how long the game is.  It's a flat out lie.

Yeah, that game is gone. We don't have four hours to play. Doesn't matter how good the game is, I get home from work at X, he has to be in bed by Y.  If the game doesn't fit, we can't play it. Plenty of other games to play.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #234 on: 23 May 2018, 08:54:33 »
I found the Firefly board game the same way. It says 'quick game', and I'm sure we were doing something wrong- I don't think we ever did a full day's gaming and completed a game.
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Drewbacca

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #235 on: 23 May 2018, 08:55:01 »
If it is a chore I would advise against using it. I would also advise against using any missile weapons and advise against firing more than one weapon a turn. Dice rolling is a part if the game. It is a core mechanic of the game. A part if what makes missiles and LB-X autocannons different from other weapons is there ability to spreadout damage, increasing the chance to damagr something important while surrendering the knock out blow capability, or at least reducing it. This is made important because of the way damage is handled playing battletech. One hit is not an automatic kill. Units are worn down over time. This provides the opportunity for somelne to turn the tables with good play and luck rather than getting swept off the table in two turns.

Despite that, Battletech is still one of the fastest playing games I have ever played, especially at its core. It is also remakably well balanced for a game that has seen so many additions primarily because it has primarily seen additions rather than revisions.

I am stunned to see someone refering to rolling dice in a table top game as a chore.

I guess my question has been answered. Thank you everyone.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #236 on: 23 May 2018, 08:57:29 »
My son and I often go to the local game store to play something from their large game library.  I'm so sick of the time estimates games give.  Damn Dungeon Lords and it's "90 minutes".  We played the first game for an hour and a half, and were only half way through.  Figured the next time we had over two hours, and we'd played it before so it would go quicker....two hours in and we're only half way through.  (The second time we had three players instead of two.)
There's no way that game is 90 minutes.  Maybe if you've played it several dozen times, but then you don't need the damn box to tell you how long the game is.  It's a flat out lie.

Yeah, that game is gone. We don't have four hours to play. Doesn't matter how good the game is, I get home from work at X, he has to be in bed by Y.  If the game doesn't fit, we can't play it. Plenty of other games to play.

I have played games with my son and three other players and finished in four hours. You have to tailor the game to the time you have. Again, I fail tonsee how this is the fault of the game.

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #237 on: 23 May 2018, 09:32:25 »
Yeah . . . I think one of the things that is being missed is are we talking about Last Man Standing or games set with objectives?  Because you can set up games with objectives that result in a quick resolution of a couple hours where mechs are still nearly intact by the time its over.

We have played King of the Hill that because someone brought a speedster forced folks to quickly close to try to keep them from getting ahead in points.

We have had games where one side is winning the fighting but they did not move quick enough on the objective (capture the flag) so that the other side won the battle if not the fight.
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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #238 on: 23 May 2018, 09:42:59 »
I have played games with my son and three other players and finished in four hours. You have to tailor the game to the time you have. Again, I fail tonsee how this is the fault of the game.

You are already a BattleTech fan. Therefore you go beyond the average fan in accommodating BattleTech.  Most aren't going to tailor the game to the time they have, they're going to pick the game to find the time they have. The game doesn't work for them, they're going to go for another game.  On top of that, many aren't going to bother even trying it if they have the perception that it is too long.  They'll never even try it.
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Drewbacca

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Re: Did I miss some change in Battletech while I was away?
« Reply #239 on: 23 May 2018, 09:55:42 »
The thing is, if you simplify weapons, get rid of the damage allocation system, and make other changes to "speed up" the game, then you are not bringing new players into Battletech, you are bringing players into a new game. And that may work, but if the differences are to big, then you lose the carry over.