Building a 3135 Republic RFP for a recon unit

[Colt Ward]

First, and to clearly state it- this is not the place for a specific design, you know where those go and if you cannot figure it out Weirdo will show you!

Now . . . with that out of the way, say you are a engineer buried away in the RAF quartermasters bureaucracy in 3135 and it seems the boss has a brilliant idea.  To preserve mechs for combat purposes, its decided to procure one or maybe two new vehicles to perform general scouting duties though notably leaving the skirmisher role up to hovertanks and light mechs (why its not in a TRO- its not a combat oriented unit).  No indication if the design board would prefer a expensive super-unit or cheap equipment they can spam.  The point is to find enemy mech & armor formations, preferably without being detected in return.  The last note on the memo to create a RFP is to place a reminder in it that the proposed recon equipment will absolutely be deployed to the Capellan border who are proficient in the electronic warfare department.

So if YOU were sending out the RFP what design elements would you require? what would be a plus?

[dgorsman]

Active probe, at a minimum.  Fully amphibious, because duhhh.  Small infantry space because nothing beats dismounted troops for low profile work.  Maybe sensor dispenser, just because you didn't find something right this minute doesn't mean there won't be something there later.  Able to be para-dropped.

And because it's coming into vogue now: optionally piloted.

[Daryk]

Just buy Boomerangs and be done with it...  ::)

[Natasha Kerensky]

Given the emphasis on not being detected, particularly against Cappies, go high-tech with an Angel ECM and vehicular stealth armor from the RAF’s Bolla variant.

Armor should be thick enough to withstand one PPC (minimum) or Gauss (goal) snipe on any glacis.  This includes the rear because this unit should be in full retreat if it’s being shot at.  (Alternately allow the Power Reverse design quirk.)

Since this is intended to scout mech forces, it needs to be able to go (most of) where they go.  On the ground, that means a tracked vehicle, ideally with some degree of amphibious capability.

Fusion power plant for long-range, independent operations.  You want to be able to outrun nearly all mechs, so a minimum speed of 7/11 and ideally 9/14 or higher.  I’m imagining something like the Ripsaw UGV.  Supercharger for really fast retreats would be a nice option.

If it’s really not intended to engage enemy forces — a true look-and-do-not-touch recon unit — I’d forgo the active probes and TAG because it should never get close enough.  Instead, mount a Recon Camera, Sensor Dispenser, and enough Communications Equipment to run the sensors and report back.

In case stuff hits the fan, I’d include some Vehicular Grenade Launchers with smoke ammo to cover a retreat.  Alternately, if there’s enough space, some MML tubes with enough ammo tonnage for a couple to a few ammo types, including smoke.  Probably need a machine gun for hosing down any enemy infantry patrols this unit runs across.

Other protective measures like an armored motive system, anti-missile system, or mine dispensers/FASCAM ammo (to cover a retreat) would be nice-to-haves but not baseline requirements.  Same goes for crew amenities that don’t apply in a BT game but add flavor given the long-duration nature of their missions.

The suggestion upthread about carrying an infantry squad makes real-world and roleplaying sense but may not have much benefit in a BT game.

Someone else mentioned the Boomerang upthread.  There may be a VTOL or conventional fighter version of this with most of the same kit that does the job persistently at altitude.

If low-tech and Angel ECM/vehicular stealth armor is not in the budget, then buying lots of the aforementioned Boomerangs, jeeps, skimmers, and the like probably makes the most sense.  A modern version of the Rotunda might be worth the investment to avoid suspicion (but not detection).

[dgorsman]

I see an active probe, particularly a Bloodhound, as a requirement for several reasons beyond tactical use.  It's necessary to detect the stealth-armored Capellan picket units.  It has a range of passive sensors useful for monitoring various transmissions.  And it's also useful in a strategic sense to scan and log local terrain features and structures.

[RifleMech]

For the purposes of this thread are IndustrialMechs available? The OP says Mechs are for combat but then wants non combat oriented units for recon.  IndustrialMechs would be non combat. So I'm not sure if this is a vehicles only thread or not.
 :-\

Either way if money is unlimited, a really powerful fusion engine (XL or XXL if needed) with super charger to give the unit speed. I'd include the best Active Probe possible along with the Improved Sensor Quirk. You want to see before you're seen. Stealth Armor so you're not seen. Environmental Sealing to travel and hide under water. Remote Sensor Dispensers, a Command Console and possibly some Com Equipment and Improved Communications Quirks. That would allow monitoring of areas from a distance and to report back what one finds. Use of Ghost targets would also help protect you if you need to bug out. Some infantry (in sneak suits) or stealth BA to deploy more sensors and go where the larger unit can't.

If using a vehicle and again if money is unlimited, a trailer to carry several remote drones to go where the main vehicle shouldn't but also so the drones can act as a decoys so the main vehicle can get away. Give it some mine dispensers, remote sensor dispensers, and missiles to lob more mines and smoke, maybe even infernos to create more cover. And a self destruct when it becomes impossible to recover.

Weapons for the main unit would be MGs and VGLs to eliminate infantry patrols, Medium Lasers for other units and Missiles and maybe mortars to keep others at a distance and a mine dispenser to keep enemies from following too closely. It'd also give it and the drones TAG and/or a Remote Camera so that they can act as spotters if needed.

And if Cosmetics are still a thing, I'd have the unit designed to look like something not threatening.

[Colt Ward]

For the purposes of this thread are IndustrialMechs available? The OP says Mechs are for combat but then wants non combat oriented units for recon.  IndustrialMechs would be non combat. So I'm not sure if this is a vehicles only thread or not.
 :-\

Interesting idea, and no I just said the requested 'vehicle' was to replace light battlemechs for the majority of recon duty.  A recon unit built on a IndiMech chassis might be pretty interesting.  As far as funding, the Republic tended to sound like the Star League a bit with throwing money at defense projects- the cost of things like the Dolaire, superheavies, the Omni small craft, and a few other expensive projects.  Or if you did not give them the Star League's penchant for throwing money at it, at least a firm believer in quality over quantity for their offensive-tasked forces.

My original idea was a VTOL with-
XL or XXL engine, depends on crits for speed & heat sinks but to keep the speed up and weight down
Vehicular Stealth Armor w/ Clan ECM
Bloodhound Active Probe (monitor 2 remote sensors)
2 ton cargo bay- either space for infantry and/or PAL squads or reloads for sensors
Remote Sensor Dispenser

I was also thinking for hovertanks, it might be a package for the Scapha Omni.

[Cannonshop]

Let's break this down instead of naming gear;



Recon platform X program;

Basic chassis must be able to provide real-time recon data at Company level and above.
basic chassis must be capable of sustained operations away from a fixed base for periods up to 90 days without depot level maintenance.
Speed: as speed is critical both to gathering information, and delivering it, ReconX platform must have a minimum operational speed of 100 KPH or greater, or a Flank speed in excess of 150 KPH.

Unit must be low-observable in a variety of conditions, and easily concealed or easily make use of terrain to conceal its presence when stationary.

Unit must make use of a majority of components sourced from existing stockpiles and/or be compatible with existing spares to at least 75%.

Unit must be low mass to ease transportation and deployment.

Unit must be able to survive at minimum one hit from a Gauss rifle or class-20 autocannon  without major failure of the structure or structural integrity.

Unit must have simplified controls or require no special training or physical traits to make use of its capabilities beyond MOS level standard training.

Unit must be able to emplace/remove remote sensors to maintain surveillance capabilities over an area.

Contract requires enhanced detection capability in addition to concealment ability.

Unit cost may not exceed 10 Million R-Bills per unit, with a sustainment per-unit cost of 11 million Republic dollars amortized over the next five years.

Armament is optional, but must be either ammunition independent, or easily supplied from existing stockpiles.

It's like setting up a design challenge: it's EASY to crank out the perfect unit if you don't have restrictions.  the real challenge is to set up restrictions that require sacrifices somewhere else to fill.

short form: they want a lot of expensive electronics and sensor-drop capability, it has to build off of existing parts stockpiles to save costs, and you have a price ceiling, (which is, as in all military contracting, more of a 'suggestion' than a hard rule, depending on who you bribe...er....cooperate with and promise a high paying job to when they muster out...) and a mass requirement that is vague enough to drive a Magi through.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I thought about putting in some of the quirks like low profile . . . and maybe requiring a Sensor Mast.

[Cannonshop]

Yeah, I thought about putting in some of the quirks like low profile . . . and maybe requiring a Sensor Mast.

those might both fit in the sample I typed up.  The kicker is to make your RFP vague enough while being specific about what you want it to actually be good at.

for example, "low observable" and "Sensor mast" are both ways to satisfy the requirements, but not the ONLY way to do so.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, since Chameleon LPS (depending on opinions about Republic's DB) or Void Sig could have been options.  I was surprised to see ground vehicles, particularly tracked be a quick initial offering.

[Cannonshop]

Yeah, since Chameleon LPS (depending on opinions about Republic's DB) or Void Sig could have been options.  I was surprised to see ground vehicles, particularly tracked be a quick initial offering.

one of the delights of posting a design challenge in the lower boards, is seeing what people come up with that you either didn't think of, or dismissed out of hand.

[Ruger]

Yeah, since Chameleon LPS (depending on opinions about Republic's DB) or Void Sig could have been options.  I was surprised to see ground vehicles, particularly tracked be a quick initial offering.

You said to reserve ‘Mechs for combat. That limits options right there.

Now, if you include them, I have some rather nasty (in a recon scout way) versions of the Ostscout that would apply.

Ruger

[Colt Ward]

May have missed a code, but I did not see anything that limited them to mechs?  Though that might make a stronger case for a recon IndiMech!

[Daryk]

If by "concealment", you mean able to do it's job beyond weapon's range, I think the Boomerang still wins.  The only thing you might want to add to it is a Remote Sensor Dispenser.  You can mount the monitoring Communications Equipment in an HQ vehicle instead of the "scout".  A fusion powered Boomerang with drone equipment would probably be ideal (hello, "Predator")...

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but it can be detected and thus the scouted knows when it happens b/c they can see the scoutee.  Recon is the most useful when you can be pretty sure the other side does not know they were spotted.

[Daryk]

Recon cameras have a range of 18km... that's ~36 map boards...

[dgorsman]

Let's break this down instead of naming gear;

<snippity snip>

Nice.  Not your first RFP, I take it?   :D

One thing I think would be a nice addition, is it should be available for manufacturing as either manned or remote drone (or somehow field configurable between the two, although that's not covered by existing rules).  The Republic was doing a lot of drone systems, and this would fit with that.

[RifleMech]

Interesting idea, and no I just said the requested 'vehicle' was to replace light battlemechs for the majority of recon duty.  A recon unit built on a IndiMech chassis might be pretty interesting.  As far as funding, the Republic tended to sound like the Star League a bit with throwing money at defense projects- the cost of things like the Dolaire, superheavies, the Omni small craft, and a few other expensive projects.  Or if you did not give them the Star League's penchant for throwing money at it, at least a firm believer in quality over quantity for their offensive-tasked forces.

My original idea was a VTOL with-
XL or XXL engine, depends on crits for speed & heat sinks but to keep the speed up and weight down
Vehicular Stealth Armor w/ Clan ECM
Bloodhound Active Probe (monitor 2 remote sensors)
2 ton cargo bay- either space for infantry and/or PAL squads or reloads for sensors
Remote Sensor Dispenser

I was also thinking for hovertanks, it might be a package for the Scapha Omni.

So an IndieMech is okay?  >:D   LAM IndieMech! Mwahahaha!   >:D   Otherwise, probably a quad and maybe with UMUs and Track Units to travel in water and make people thing there's a tank about.

I think I might go with an airship instead. They have slow acceleration but are ultimately faster than VTOLs. They're also quieter and can go a lot higher than VTOLs. That'd help them keep unnoticed and out of range of most AAA units.

Recon cameras have a range of 18km... that's ~36 map boards...

Only when used by aerospace units.  :'(  Used to park on top of a large hill and watch what happens. Can't do that now.

[Daryk]

Right... which Boomerangs are now, as I recall...

[RifleMech]

Right... which Boomerangs are now, as I recall...

Yes. There's a lot you can't do from 18km up though.

[Daryk]

True, but you can do the main thing on Colt's list: recon.

[RifleMech]

Some recon, in good weather.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

One Spector SPR-5F that replaces ECM for an Angel ECM would be enough. The others are either can be seen or can be detected by the sensor. Combine Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and Null Signature System with ECM would be what you want, if you want something unseen.

Sure, it is unlikely that you can afford it(and ridiculously expensive if you are have a connection). Then, I suggest to use some VTOLs with Mast Mount. With this, you can hide behind of the terrain while search the enemy.

[Church14]

Since the RFP is completed:

I picture a VTOL with some form of stealth equipment, BAP (or better), an infantry bay, and a standoff weapon. Something like a small LRM or extended LRM.

I like the earlier suggestion of being able to put dismounted troops down for actual stealthy operations. VTOL (depending on what generates lift) covers basically every available terrain and will likely have the speed to retreat if found.

LRMs for weapons as alternate ammunition provides support options denied to other weapons. Allows for indirect fire in tandem with the carried troops. Extended LRMs came to mind so that it can engage from extreme ranges if it must engage.

[Col Toda]

So a purpose built recon unit. These are the design elements  I have used in the past . It is not cheap.

I like VTOL  with rocket booster , Bloodhound Active Probe in a VTOL Mast , Angel ECM , remote sensor dispenser , Laser AMS and TAG  in a VTOL  turret  if you can get mixed Clan tech for the AMS throw in a recon  camera . Laser Reflective  Armor on a VTOL is ideal too . Did this Jihad ERA out of my Solaris VII Stable . Much easier to do 3145 with all those Super Heavy VTOLs w Reflective Armor  like the Kamikiri  already exist just add non standard parts quirk and call it a day . The only real difference  is experimental  during the Jihad vs Advanced or Tournament legal  in 3145. So you only need regular instead of elite techs to maintain it. With a Mast it can take total cover behind a hill . With a remote sensor dispenser you can drop 8 of them at Cardinal  and between  Cardinal points 1.5 km (3 map boards ) around the LZ to be  monitored by a C3 Master mech with a Command  Console  by itself at the LZ to see incoming enemy units almost 4 map boards away. With a 10/15/20 VTOL  it takes about 2 minutes  .

Stealth may sound ok but active stealth  acts as hostile ECM on an active probe equipped unit so not ideal if not pointless .

Near instant perimeter network . Just need Arrow IV armed units with ADA Arrow IV and Homing with a bunch of TAG equipped units to keep it relatively secure.

In another  campaign  we used drones with a vehicle with drone controlling equipment  . Not anywhere  as clean, useful  and ideal as the VTOL .