Mech design decisions that make no sense

[Caedis Animus]

The 3025 Stalker really DID have too much girth!  ;D

I blame the double-sided knee actuators.

[grimlock1]

The Hunchback IIC is explicitly for warriors who are past their prime and are looking for a death or glory attack.  Like theoretically you could wipe out an entire Star of mechs in 5 turns if you got lucky enough.  It wouldn't be that unusual to see some Ultra 20s double up on locations and nuke somebody.  The Clans obviously place enough importance on a glorious death that they're willing to splurge a little bit by building kamikaze mechs for those who need it.

While I'm not a huge fan of the stock Hunchie IIC, I was referring to version 2 with the quad heavy lasers. Sure, it can theoretically smite almost anything than a Great Turtle -1 in one alpha, but then its dead in the water for a turn. So 5 turns to kill a start is really 10.

But the Black Hawk Prime?  Man that thing is one of my favorites.  You never shoot all the lasers, but you've got 6 for each side arc.  Lose an arm, you're still good.  And with 5 jump, you can go up heat and retain your mobility.  You pick your comfort level with this mech.  You want to go up to 14+ and risk shutdown?  Go for it, you can jump away next round.  Or you can be conservative and not go up heat at all.

By that logic, why not carry 5 extra heat sinks, just in case you take an engine crit?

[Kit deSummersville]

By that logic, why not carry 5 extra heat sinks, just in case you take an engine crit?

The ShadowHawk heard you!

[TigerShark]

By that logic, why not carry 5 extra heat sinks, just in case you take an engine crit?

I actually think you should. Which is why I consider the ON1-K to be garbage and the THG-11E to be a perfect unit for its era. If you can't take engine crits and keep going... you're not much use. Just my philosophy, though.

[Sartris]

Most 3025 units with 10-12 shs have the same problem to varying degrees. The orion’s real issue is that if it’s taking engine crits, the copious ammo bins are also probably exposed

[TigerShark]

Most 3025 units with 10-12 shs have the same problem to varying degrees. The orion’s real issue is that if it’s taking engine crits, the copious ammo bins are also probably exposed

Any kind of TAC (if using standard rules) will force it to withdraw. You really can't do anything but stand still and fire one gun if you have +5 heat and only 10 heat dispersal. It's just silly. The AC/10 just wastes far too much tonnage to do the same thing as other weapon systems on that beast.

[Sartris]

Forced withdrawal doesn’t mean you get away. The ammo is a problem regardless. My issue with the AC/10 is that it doesn’t fit well with the other range brackets. In a campaign I had to replace the 10 with a 5 because of parts shortages and it performed a lot better

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I have two generic House/merc/pirate 3025 Orion refits, you either free up mass from the AC or the LRM.  Lol, IS the Orion a original New Toy Syndrome mech since it was the point when they added 3 more ACs IIRC?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I always thought of it as an oversized Centurion with and extra SRM pod.

[Scotty]

I am literally incapable of understanding the mindset of wanting to be able to take an engine hit and still not meaningfully overheat.

If you're not riding the heat scale at all you're either not using your mech to its fullest potential, or it's fullest potential has been engineered right out of it.

[TigerShark]

I am literally incapable of understanding the mindset of wanting to be able to take an engine hit and still not meaningfully overheat.

If you're not riding the heat scale at all you're either not using your mech to its fullest potential, or it's fullest potential has been engineered right out of it.

Or you've never faced a challenging opponent able to take advantage of that play style.

[Scotty]

Or you've never faced a challenging opponent able to take advantage of that play style.

When I meet the player who can conjure engine TACs on demand I'll remember this.  Otherwise, if you just mean "uses heat inflicting weapons" then I can assure you that I have, and it didn't change that belief.

[Colt Ward]

I am literally incapable of understanding the mindset of wanting to be able to take an engine hit and still not meaningfully overheat.

If you're not riding the heat scale at all you're either not using your mech to its fullest potential, or it's fullest potential has been engineered right out of it.

Yeah . . . Mad Dog C and Gargoyle Prime for the latter- when you have a engine crit and still think its fine to stand in the fire.

No, its had the fullest potential engineered out- heat neutral or just plain cool designs waste tonnage on cooling that could be weapons.

[massey]

I am literally incapable of understanding the mindset of wanting to be able to take an engine hit and still not meaningfully overheat.

If you're not riding the heat scale at all you're either not using your mech to its fullest potential, or it's fullest potential has been engineered right out of it.

I completely agree.  If I can't go up heat, that means I don't have enough weapons.

[grimlock1]

I am literally incapable of understanding the mindset of wanting to be able to take an engine hit and still not meaningfully overheat.

If you're not riding the heat scale at all you're either not using your mech to its fullest potential, or it's fullest potential has been engineered right out of it.

On the other hand, to pull and IRL example, How much more ammo could and A-10 carry if just had redundant flight controls instead of triple redundancies?

But by this logic, it would be prudent for soldiers to carry a spare SAPI plate for thier body armor, in case they take a hit.

[Kit deSummersville]

On the other hand, to pull and IRL example, How much more ammo could and A-10 carry if just had redundant flight controls instead of triple redundancies?

If it had BattleTech ablative armor, probably.

[Scotty]

On the other hand, to pull and IRL example, How much more ammo could and A-10 carry if just had redundant flight controls instead of triple redundancies?

But by this logic, it would be prudent for soldiers to carry a spare SAPI plate for thier body armor, in case they take a hit.

If in either of those cases performance could be meaningfully improved at little to no real loss?  Abso-damn-lutely.  "Unfortunately" the real world doesn't have construction rules for aircraft that fit on six pages, so your example is meaningless in how (not) equivalent it can ever hope to be.  The infantry example is even more hopelessly irrelevant to a Mech's construction and gameplay rules.

Having a mech with a maximum heat generation of 5-15 points under it's maximum heat is with precious few exceptions wasting performance in a big way by in the most charitable interpretation possible expecting a hit that will probably never happen.

[grimlock1]

If in either of those cases performance could be meaningfully improved at little to no real loss?  Abso-damn-lutely.  "Unfortunately" the real world doesn't have construction rules for aircraft that fit on six pages, so your example is meaningless in how (not) equivalent it can ever hope to be.  The infantry example is even more hopelessly irrelevant to a Mech's construction and gameplay rules.

Having a mech with a maximum heat generation of 5-15 points under it's maximum heat is with precious few exceptions wasting performance in a big way by in the most charitable interpretation possible expecting a hit that will probably never happen.

On the table top, I agree.

[TigerShark]

Yeah . . . Mad Dog C and Gargoyle Prime for the latter- when you have a engine crit and still think its fine to stand in the fire.

No, its had the fullest potential engineered out- heat neutral or just plain cool designs waste tonnage on cooling that could be weapons.

So an AWS-8Q has "less potential" than, say, a WHM-6R because of its heat profile? O.o Compare the LGB-7Q to the ARC-2R. The former is a FAR superior platform and more reliable for its BV. The latter will be rendered toothless by a few inferno SRMs.

There is a big line between "can take an engine hit and keep firing" and "is oversinked like the THG-11E".

[Scotty]

The AWS-8Q can ride the heat curve fine, but pursuant to the overall point, the Awesome also doesn't really have much to change.  It isn't sacrificing anything to be where it is.  There's not an easy number of hear sinks you can rip off for something better.  +4 while running and firing all main guns is entirely reasonable.

I think we also disagree significantly on what "toothless" means, or you're flat out unwilling to ride the heat scale.  If you have an Archer that's taking multiple full salvos from SRM-6s with Infernos, yes there is a problem.  The problem is not that your Archer is overheating.  Even with max heat from external sources the Archer is still getting a full turn of shooting and assuming it ran and fired one set of weapons or the other you're only going up to +11 or +17.  Neither of those check for ammo explosions and only one has an easy shutdown check.

[SCC]

About the only change I'd consider making is one that might make Weirdo use customs, pull the SL and a HS for a sprayer and a ton of coolant ammo, then deploy in pairs that hose each other down, u\enabling continuous firing of all three PPC's for ten turns.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Why use a custom when you could just bring a coolant truck?

[SCC]

Why use a custom when you could just bring a coolant truck?

Part of it is the absurdity of the situation of two overheating 'Mechs cooling each other down. The other part is that people always complain about vehicles not being able to go all the places 'Mechs can, well then by that logic the should be a Coolant 'Mech and things sort of snowballed.

[Weirdo]

Just use a Pompier or one of the other numerous sprayer-equipped indymechs. When presented with a pair of Awesomes and a small IndustrialMech providing only a minor benefit, I'm fairly certain the Awesomes are going to draw to vast bulk of the incoming fire.

[Starfury]

So no we're giving Battlemechs field assist crews in battle? Well that's a new one. As for heat efficiency, it can go super insane, like the 5K Quickdraw.  I'm still trying to figure out where all these 17 DHS came from and weren't routed to the Atlas manufacturers on Quentin. That's a supply and design snafu of interstellar proportions.

[SCC]

So no we're giving Battlemechs field assist crews in battle? Well that's a new one. As for heat efficiency, it can go super insane, like the 5K Quickdraw.  I'm still trying to figure out where all these 17 DHS came from and weren't routed to the Atlas manufacturers on Quentin. That's a supply and design snafu of interstellar proportions.

Don't. Trust me on this, just don't.

[Starfury]

Apparently. I'm still trying to figure out how the AS7-K2 became the Atlas poster child for all of the factions in the Dark Ages as well....

[grimlock1]

So no we're giving Battlemechs field assist crews in battle? Well that's a new one. As for heat efficiency, it can go super insane, like the 5K Quickdraw.  I'm still trying to figure out where all these 17 DHS came from and weren't routed to the Atlas manufacturers on Quentin. That's a supply and design snafu of interstellar proportions.

Also, Charger -3K. Granted the -3K isn't as cruel a joke as the -1A1, it's still a lot of resources I would have sent elsewhere.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Apparently. I'm still trying to figure out how the AS7-K2 became the Atlas poster child for all of the factions in the Dark Ages as well....

Defiance Industry has good marketing.

[Empyrus]

Ain't a bad design. A smidgen inefficient, but reasonable as long you aren't afraid of losing a bit mobility to heating up, something the design can afford to do.

It is ugly to be sure though. I'm gonna assume DI marketing department relies on stats and photoshopped images.