Author Topic: Star Trek Discovery  (Read 163967 times)

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #690 on: 10 January 2018, 19:00:58 »
Even at the same timeframe things were different, like the transporter effects for the Defiant, Voyager and Enterprise E, even though they were all contemporary ships. That's leaving aside that the Enterprise in TMP is meant to be the same ship we saw in TOS and TAS, and even though it has undergone a refit spaces like engineering are a totally different size and shape.  Or the pre-Enterprise explanation for the TMP Klingons looking different was "we'd always have done them this way if we had the money and the technology"

Like, I get how people want there to be visual continuity, but for the most part Trek is not the place to find it, even when they had concurrent productions.  And yeah, DISCO is more of a radical shift than Trek has done previously, but the prior look and feel wouldn't have worked on TV these days - hell, a big part of why Generations was lit so darkly was to hide how awful the TNG Enterprise sets looked on film.  Ultra HD streaming means that there needs to be an insane level of detail to feel 'real', which isn't necessarily compatible with the look of the TOS or the TNG era.

So, if you need to do a ground-up redesign of the setting, why pick the TOS era to set your new show?  Well, the creators say they had a good story to tell in that era, so that's reason one.  But also, it helps with recognition outside the die-hard fans - and the lesson of the last 15 years is that Trek can't survive on just the die-hard fans.  It sucks if you can't get past the visual differences, but a decision was made early on in the show's production to effectively not cater to you.
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #691 on: 10 January 2018, 19:31:27 »
The main problem is that they could have told the story at least in a different continuity and not tried to say it is in the same continuity as TOS.  They wouldn't have lost anything by saying it was the same continuity as Abram's reboot or an entirely new continuity.

Hell there has been nothing about the stories I've seen via youtube that indicates it needs to be a prequel series.

Mudd could have been replaced by another character, an original one would have been fine, and maybe a couple lines changes and if you didn't know it was supposed to be a TOS Prequel series that is supposed to be in the same continuity it'd still tell the same stories.

Unless there is a lot more that I've missed.  Which is possible since as mentioned I have only seen the first episode and clips via youtube.

So I don't think my objections are unreasonable and I am certainly not some die-hard fan.  Certainly more of a moderate.  I have admitted the show does look enjoyable enough at times.  It is just not good  enough to overcome my complaints with the decisions they have made and get me emotionally invested enough to make the monetary investment.  Which is ultimately what I think the biggest failure of Discovery is.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #692 on: 10 January 2018, 23:55:23 »
well, after a lot of lurking..just goign to wish those wwho enjoy it the best. If this is now the prime timeline, and STD's retcons and behavior are just the way its going to be..well, Trek as a franchise has decided that they dont need TOS fans anymore for their future TV shows. I wish them luck with their franchise.

monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #693 on: 11 January 2018, 00:16:14 »
The unfortunate truth as Lorcan points out is that ST:D seems to be doing well enough that they can do without the die hards and even more reasonable moderates such as myself.

All good things must come to an end at some point.


Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #694 on: 11 January 2018, 01:57:51 »

Hell there has been nothing about the stories I've seen via youtube that indicates it needs to be a prequel series.


Bear in mind that a massive proportion of the coverage on YouTube is deliberately distorted by the content creators to induce clicks.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #695 on: 11 January 2018, 13:46:24 »
The main problem is that they could have told the story at least in a different continuity and not tried to say it is in the same continuity as TOS.  They wouldn't have lost anything by saying it was the same continuity as Abram's reboot or an entirely new continuity.

Being saying that (sort of) since my first post here. Why doing this instead of making a series pos DS9 or whatever... I want stories set in the future not rehash the "timeline" in the past... enough of that...
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #696 on: 11 January 2018, 14:15:59 »
Bear in mind that a massive proportion of the coverage on YouTube is deliberately distorted by the content creators to induce clicks.

Which I am trying to bear in mind but still the actual show dialogue and concepts that are there haven't shown anything that requires a prequel series.

Being saying that (sort of) since my first post here. Why doing this instead of making a series pos DS9 or whatever... I want stories set in the future not rehash the "timeline" in the past... enough of that...

*nod*

Heck even the first episode that I watched in it's entirety could have had one character changed and maybe a depressingly small number lines of dialogue to go with and it could have been a post DS9 story focused around a resurgent hard line traditionalist Klingon faction that was gaining strength and becoming a serious issue for the Federation.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #697 on: 11 January 2018, 14:37:52 »
Well, the writers have said they had a story they wanted to tell in the era, but that could be PR.  Alternatively it could have been a mandate from CBS, because the TOS era has more cultural cachet with the general public, especially in the aftermath of the Kelvin timeline movies.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #698 on: 11 January 2018, 16:25:57 »
It’s probably worth noting that the original plan for the show was not strictly a prequel series. Brian Fuller’s original pitch was an anthology show that would feature a different story and cast each season, starting with a prequel story and progressing through the timeline. I’m not sure if that changed before or after he left the show.

They wouldn't have lost anything by saying it was the same continuity as Abram's reboot or an entirely new continuity.

Well, they couldn’t legally do the first (Paramount has the Kelvin timeline rights, not CBS) and what would be the benefit of splintering the IP even farther with the second?

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #699 on: 11 January 2018, 16:32:45 »
It’s probably worth noting that the original plan for the show was not strictly a prequel series. Brian Fuller’s original pitch was an anthology show that would feature a different story and cast each season, starting with a prequel story and progressing through the timeline. I’m not sure if that changed before or after he left the show.


IIRC that changed before, I remember an interview or statement from Fuller before he left where he denied some of the rumours floating around, such as the anthology.  And he still has a script credit for the first episode.
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #700 on: 11 January 2018, 16:46:38 »
Well, the writers have said they had a story they wanted to tell in the era, but that could be PR.  Alternatively it could have been a mandate from CBS, because the TOS era has more cultural cachet with the general public, especially in the aftermath of the Kelvin timeline movies.

Well, they couldn’t legally do the first (Paramount has the Kelvin timeline rights, not CBS) and what would be the benefit of splintering the IP even farther with the second?

Okay legalities I can understand and perhaps the second option would splinter the fan base even more but ultimately if they hadn't been so hide bound to make it a prequel series it would have been better IMHO.  Especially as I have said nothing I have seen so far from direct unedited clips of the show itself would require more than two character changes and a few changes of dialogue to make it a new unexplored era with the added benefits of it neatly strips away a lot of the criticisms leveled at the show.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #701 on: 11 January 2018, 16:55:30 »
  Especially as I have said nothing I have seen so far from direct unedited clips of the show itself would require more than two character changes and a few changes of dialogue to make it a new unexplored era with the added benefits of it neatly strips away a lot of the criticisms leveled at the show.

Except that the producers likely don't care about those criticisms.
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #702 on: 11 January 2018, 17:23:04 »
Probably true.

Which I do find rather disappointing.  They didn't have to alienate as many fans as they have and could have a perfectly fine show without as much criticism if they hadn't been so hide bound to the idea of a prequel series.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #703 on: 11 January 2018, 17:49:07 »
Probably true.

Which I do find rather disappointing.  They didn't have to alienate as many fans as they have and could have a perfectly fine show without as much criticism if they hadn't been so hide bound to the idea of a prequel series.

If the choice is alienate a few thousand old-school fans, but gain tens or hundreds of thousands of casual/semi-casual fans as a result, it's a no-brainer though. 

And they're probably thinking of TNG as well.  When it started, TOS fans despised it. Like, imagine the vitriol coming out of some corners at Discovery, but in an age where communication was much more difficult.  And that didn't fade away until series 3.  If the show remains successful they might figure a lot of the people who are staunchly against the show will come around.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #704 on: 11 January 2018, 18:11:32 »
If the choice is alienate a few thousand old-school fans, but gain tens or hundreds of thousands of casual/semi-casual fans as a result, it's a no-brainer though. 

And they're probably thinking of TNG as well.  When it started, TOS fans despised it. Like, imagine the vitriol coming out of some corners at Discovery, but in an age where communication was much more difficult.  And that didn't fade away until series 3.  If the show remains successful they might figure a lot of the people who are staunchly against the show will come around.
I don't think it is an OR situation, I think that they could have gotten more from both groups.   
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Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #705 on: 11 January 2018, 18:16:33 »
I don't think it is an OR situation, I think that they could have gotten more from both groups.   

If the Kelvin movies had been less popular, they would have likely been more interested in appeasing Trekkies.  But if the Kelvin movies had been less popular, they may wouldn't have made a new TV show to begin with.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #706 on: 11 January 2018, 18:50:15 »
If the Kelvin movies had been less popular, they would have likely been more interested in appeasing Trekkies.  But if the Kelvin movies had been less popular, they may wouldn't have made a new TV show to begin with.
I think that the Kelvin movies are popular because they are more action packed and have more human conflict, this makes them more relatable for the casual moviegoer. They do however suffer a lot in story/plot structure, but a more effort on that front could have fixed that, and thus made it a better movie for both casuals and trekkies.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #707 on: 11 January 2018, 18:57:21 »
I'm with Maingunnery here.  They could have gotten more with the same effort but different decisions and I don't think the Kelvin movies being popular would have stood in the way of more people watching and enjoying ST:D with said different decisions.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #708 on: 11 January 2018, 19:16:57 »
I think that the Kelvin movies are popular because they are more action packed and have more human conflict, this makes them more relatable for the casual moviegoer. They do however suffer a lot in story/plot structure, but a more effort on that front could have fixed that, and thus made it a better movie for both casuals and trekkies.

This. I like (just like) those movies because

a) they said its a different universe/whatever
b) they found a way to explain "our" Spock in there (it isnt perfect but its enough for me)
c) didnt make any radical change to the setting/races in general (except for klingons which I laughed hard at the cinema - like Discovery where theyre very different)

yeah... I like my Klingons the savage race as presented in the other series.

Edit = Discovery could be about those repercussions that "our" timeline had in the decision made by "our" Spock...
« Last Edit: 11 January 2018, 19:19:31 by Kentares »
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #709 on: 11 January 2018, 19:49:56 »
This. I like (just like) those movies because

a) they said its a different universe/whatever
b) they found a way to explain "our" Spock in there (it isnt perfect but its enough for me)
c) didnt make any radical change to the setting/races in general (except for klingons which I laughed hard at the cinema - like Discovery where theyre very different)

yeah... I like my Klingons the savage race as presented in the other series.

Edit = Discovery could be about those repercussions that "our" timeline had in the decision made by "our" Spock...

I do think there is a general underestimation of fans in Hollywood.  Add in what works for the big screen doesn't always work for the small screen.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #710 on: 12 January 2018, 00:57:29 »
I do think there is a general underestimation of fans in Hollywood.  Add in what works for the big screen doesn't always work for the small screen.

This is entirely true, but Hollywood logic is not the same as regular person logic.
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monbvol

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #711 on: 12 January 2018, 02:14:35 »
*nod*

Which I learned to accept a long time ago.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #712 on: 12 January 2018, 12:19:32 »
And they're probably thinking of TNG as well.  When it started, TOS fans despised it. Like, imagine the vitriol coming out of some corners at Discovery, but in an age where communication was much more difficult.  And that didn't fade away until series 3.  If the show remains successful they might figure a lot of the people who are staunchly against the show will come around.

This statement is kind of funny, because it doesn't know an age limit, either. I grew up on the Original Series reruns, and then, at age 7-8, they premiered The Next Generation. While I could get behind the crew, especially Wes, I remember thinking "That's not the Enterprise!". 

I even thought the ship looked ugly. As a kid.  In the 80s.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #713 on: 12 January 2018, 14:05:38 »
I even thought the ship looked ugly. As a kid.  In the 80s.

Well, yeah, because the Galaxy-class is ugly as shit.

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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #714 on: 12 January 2018, 14:15:26 »
This statement is kind of funny, because it doesn't know an age limit, either. I grew up on the Original Series reruns, and then, at age 7-8, they premiered The Next Generation. While I could get behind the crew, especially Wes, I remember thinking "That's not the Enterprise!". 

I even thought the ship looked ugly. As a kid.  In the 80s.



I wonder if there was some timing to it.  I was a little older than you when TNG premièred, but it took almost 3 years to the day to show up on TV over here.  I'd managed to see Encounter at Farpoint a year before that thanks to most of series 1 getting a home video release prior to that, and I'd read random issues of the DC comics, so I was kinda excited to see more.

So maybe something just changed in 1991?
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #715 on: 12 January 2018, 14:26:37 »

I think that for many the Galaxy failed to match the expectations, as it truly looks like a cruiseship of diplomacy, not like a true explorer/combat ship.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #716 on: 12 January 2018, 14:29:03 »
Gene Roddenberry didn't want the thing to look like a Warship.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #717 on: 12 January 2018, 15:40:54 »
TNG premiered right about the time my mom started letting me watch live action TV, so I never had a problem with the Enterprise D's appearance.  It was the original Enterprise that I thought looked silly, especially the big radar dish on it.
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #718 on: 12 January 2018, 16:45:28 »
I go back and forth on the Galaxy. Some days I like it, seeing it as elegant and the highly sculpted curves being a constant reminder of the post-scarcity nature of Federation society. Even for the Federation, I suspect the Galaxy, Nebula, and such were designed during particularly good years.

Other days I'm not a fan. The whole thing strikes me as goofy, and the wide saucer and sweeping curves throw me off. No matter the angle I'm looking at the ship from, I get a feeling that there's some weird forced-perspective stuff going on and what I'm seeing isn't the actual ship.

Of course, even on its best days, the Galaxy-class can never hold a candle to a Constitution-refit. 8)
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Re: Star Trek Discovery
« Reply #719 on: 12 January 2018, 18:05:11 »
The Galaxy-class is a thing of elegance and beauty. It's my second-favorite vessel design, after the Excelsior.
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