Artillery questions

[Alan Grant]

I'm considering getting back into Battletech after a long hiatus. I've never used artillery at all and seldom given it any thought. But I've been learning a lot of about real world artillery. So I was toying with the idea of building an arty unit as part of a roleplaying game.

Some questions kind to mind. Some associated with the board game rules itself others more more roleplaying/fluff focused.


Roleplaying question- Thumper, Sniper and Long Tom, any idea what caliber weapon system these would be regarded as?


I was originally mostly interested in towed infantry artillery akin to the Kurita Thumper platoon and Capellan Missile Artillery in TRO 3085. But now I'm seeing stuff on Gun Trailers in a TRO I don't own yet. So now I'm torn, Pros and Cons between the two?


Are there rules for Gun Trailers in a rules book somewhere, aside from TRO 3145 Mercenaries? The biggest questions that comes to mind is deployment speed (setting it up) and to what degree a Gun Trailer slows down the vehicle hauling it.


Both the Thumper and Arrow 4 artillery platoons weigh 40 tons. I'm looking for VTOLs that could make them air-mobile, at least strategically, any recommendations?


Finally, is there any consensus on what constitutes an Artillery "Battery" in Battletech? In the old 3050s-era Field Manuals I see the terms Artillery Company and Artillery Thrown thrown around a lot in infantry units or as part of armor brigades. Anything resembling canon standardized organization on towed artillery organization would be helpful.



Thanks in advance, if you can even chip in toward even one or two questions it's helpful.

[Daryk]

Here are a few artillery ideas I've posted over the years:

Winged Caisson system (ASF mobile Thumper platoon).

My Glenmora Planetary Militia has some artillery modified Goblins.

And a couple of ComStar artillery units made at WorkTroll's request.

[AlphaMirage]

Roleplaying question- Thumper, Sniper and Long Tom, any idea what caliber weapon system these would be regarded as?

I have always considered (and fluffed in my fanfics and scenarios) the Thumper to be a heavy 120mm or equivalent Mortar, the Sniper is a 155mm or equivalent Artillery gun, and the Long Tom more akin to the old german railway guns or coastal defense artillery.

I was originally mostly interested in towed infantry artillery akin to the Kurita Thumper platoon and Capellan Missile Artillery in TRO 3085. But now I'm seeing stuff on Gun Trailers in a TRO I don't own yet. So now I'm torn, Pros and Cons between the two? 

An infantry platoon is more vulnerable to area of effect damage but likely cheaper in cost both in c-bills and BV while being able to move albeit very slowly.  A gun trailer needs a tractor and is effectively a vehicle although one unable to move under its own power.

Are there rules for Gun Trailers in a rules book somewhere, aside from TRO 3145 Mercenaries? The biggest questions that comes to mind is deployment speed (setting it up) and to what degree a Gun Trailer slows down the vehicle hauling it. 

Both of those rules are in Total Warfare and TechManual.  It may have changed but I have always used the trailer as added weight to its tractor when computing cruise MP (for example a 20 ton vehicle with a 20 ton trailer assuming they use the same motive type is a 40 ton vehicle.  So a 200 rated engine would move them 5/8 instead of 10/15 assuming its tracked).  A trailer is a vehicle without an engine but following all the same rules for vehicle construction.

Both the Thumper and Arrow 4 artillery platoons weigh 40 tons. I'm looking for VTOLs that could make them air-mobile, at least strategically, any recommendations?

No standard VTOL can carry a 40 ton load as they max out at 30 tons themselves, there are some super-heavy VTOLs that can but they are rare, expensive, and better used elsewhere.  If you want artillery to move make it self-propelled or tow it. 

Strategically you can always deliver the infantry and artillery piece separately and just say they come together for that battle (drop the platoon and ammo off with a Karnov then make a second trip to pick up an underslung artillery piece being the easiest) 

Finally, is there any consensus on what constitutes an Artillery "Battery" in Battletech? In the old 3050s-era Field Manuals I see the terms Artillery Company and Artillery Thrown thrown around a lot in infantry units or as part of armor brigades. Anything resembling canon standardized organization on towed artillery organization would be helpful.

There is no canon consensus on artillery organization for any faction that I know of and I have looked.  The fiction is all about Battlemechs (Davion, Kurita, Wolf, and Jade Falcon Battlemechs in particular) after all.  Armor is a distant third (with Elementals and Battle Armored Infantry being second), and everything else is more distant from there. 

My fiction is always a 6 piece battery as that makes the most sense in my head-canon.  The closest you get is in the CCAF which is the most prolific user of both infantry and artillery in the Inner Sphere.  Their augmented lance (company, etc...) system is the basis that I typically default to.

[Daryk]

I've generally thought of the Thumber as a 105mm, the Sniper as the aforementioned 120mm mortar-like weapon (given it's shorter range), and the Long Tom as the 155mm.

[Precentor Scorpio]

For actual game use and if you playing on a board that cannot easily identify the actual target hex, I recommend using tokens to be placed on the game board as Target Reference Points. 
From these Target Reference Points you identify the direction and distance to the actual target hex.  The tokens identify incoming rounds and the tokens do not reveal to your opfor what is the actual target.
Simply create a spreadsheet identifying the Token and place the Token on the map.  On the record sheet, record the turn the round was fired, the turn that the round should arrive, direction of the actual target and the distance to the actual target.  Next, ID the type of round fired and let the fear of incoming rounds intimidate your opfor. 

TRP ID  //  Round Fired  //  Round Arrives //  Direction (Hexside 1-6) //  Distance // Type (HE/Cluster/Tag/Fascam/Smoke)

Red chip            1                     4                                  2                         6               HE         (one hexside turn right go out six hexes  High Explosive)
Blue chip           1                     4                                  -                          -               Cluster  (In this case the Token/TRP is the actual target)
Yellow chip         1                    4                                  -                         -               Tag         (The token simply informs everyone a round is incoming)

(I found the three turn delay is too long.  So I am going to try a two turn delay.  Rounds fired on turn two will arrives on turn 4.  For cheap fiction purposes, the artillery rounds are semi-guided (radio) so the artillery is too far away for the opfor to make an attempt at overrunning the guns.)
Just trying to be helpful.

[Precentor Scorpio]

Also, on a hexless board, I would use a coaster or maybe a cover from a soda cup (McDonald's) as the area impacted by the artillery round.

[Alan Grant]

[/b]

There is no canon consensus on artillery organization for any faction that I know of and I have looked.  The fiction is all about Battlemechs (Davion, Kurita, Wolf, and Jade Falcon Battlemechs in particular) after all.  Armor is a distant third (with Elementals and Battle Armored Infantry being second), and everything else is more distant from there. 

My fiction is always a 6 piece battery as that makes the most sense in my head-canon.  The closest you get is in the CCAF which is the most prolific user of both infantry and artillery in the Inner Sphere.  Their augmented lance (company, etc...) system is the basis that I typically default to.

The CCAF is the most prolific user of artillery in the Inner Sphere? Is there a source on that?

Not doubting, I can see the argument, I'm just wondering if that's stated in a book somewhere.


Also on the VTOL issue. I'm not opposed to splitting up the 40 ton platoon among multiple VTOLs. I should have stated that.


Thank you for answering all the questions, and thanks to all who have replied so far. You all are awesome.  :)

[Daryk]

If you want real world artillery advice, I recommend contacting Charlie 6.  He has the most experience of anyone I know.

[AlphaMirage]

The CCAF is the most prolific user of artillery in the Inner Sphere? Is there a source on that?

Not doubting, I can see the argument, I'm just wondering if that's stated in a book somewhere.


Also on the VTOL issue. I'm not opposed to splitting up the 40 ton platoon among multiple VTOLs. I should have stated that.


Thank you for answering all the questions, and thanks to all who have replied so far. You all are awesome.  :)

+1 to Precentor Scorpio's suggestion.  I use a homemade record sheet for firing coordinates with delays, once you get more than 3 pieces it gets very difficult to adjudicate.  Also artillery lands before the firing phase but after the movement phase.  You can possibly knock a mech down (Homing A4 or Copperhead shells are nasty like this) and deny it half its weapons before firing even begins.  They will get a slight advantage in their TMM for being prone unless you are next to them but if they were firing from behind partially cover they can't see over it now.

I don't think there is a citable source of the CCAF being the largest user of artillery but several of their mechs have A4 variants (the most common being the Catapult C3 and Thunder 3L variants) and their heavy hovertank (the Regulator) and dark age Po II also have variants.  They are also responsible for several ammo types and the reintroduction of the system from lostech in the 3040s. 

The CCAF is also one of the largest users of armor in the IS (by percentage of their army obviously the regiments of armor in the Davion RCTs outmass and outnumber them) which is a natural niche for artillery.  Artillery really fits into their general MO of teams of smaller units taking down larger ones by coordination and also denying the enemy mobility (with the Thunder versions) which makes them easier to destroy with artillery.  They also have a large number of units with AC/20s that could be converted to missile artillery.

Long live Liao! 
Down with Davion!

[Daryk]

Or Thumpers... They do less damage, but 20 shots per ton goes a bit further than 5.

[Colt Ward]

Your better bet for calibers would be . . . 75mm, 105/155mm and 203mm for the calibers- it seems to be what was originally referenced from the 80s under light/med/heavy artillery.  MLRS could be A4 . . . but really, going with the era they referenced its more like the Perishing IMO- they were a single missile firing at a time.

The Capellan Thumper platoon is the only canon tube towed artillery around BUT, its done as an example of 'how to build' in the rules.  Its just such a low priority I do not expect we will ever get other platoons.  I ran into this problem for a competition using MUL only units when I was wanting a Sniper platoon . . . so if you want the Sniper, get the platoon plan off of MegaMek is my best suggestion.  If you use the right type of motive system for towed you will be less vulnerable to AI & caught in the open weapons . . . but suffer more from anti-mech weapons.

Organization-  IRL the US Army uses in a battery two firing platoons (of 3 guns) and a command platoon, a battalion is made up of 3 firing batteries and a command & support battery for MLRS, be it heavy or light rocket artillery.  This changed from after Desert Storm where they had 3 firing platoons in a battery under the command platoon . . . real world experience said it was overkill to consolidate that many launchers into a battery.  Pretty sure tube follows that as it is what I remember seeing when running across tube training units- it also makes internal sense for 3 guns due to tube/rocket having the same manpower requirements.  On table top . . . I consider 3 tubes to be the minimum to make effective fire plans, and really wish you could 'FDC' a HQ unit.

Applying it to hexless or in my group's case unnumbered hexless maps . . . well, here is a mix of what is used.  We had one player who would bring a A4 launcher and take a picture of the impact location on his phone and show it to everyone on his side so it was 'locked in.'  Since I ran 3 tubes during a half-dozen games (Thumper Towed platoons) I would enter the firing information on the backside of the sheet's slick.  It would be like-
Turn 1
Gray Plt- not firing, moving
Blue Plt- target is 3 hexes from the #3 (scatter chart) on SE L3 hill w/ heavy woods- hits turn 3
Green Plt- not firing, moving

Sounds a lot like a forward observer calling in a strike . . . and if you use hexless terrain, its going to sound like it even more!

[Daryk]

For my planetary militia, the three battery sections had two tubes each, with an ammo carrier (a modified MG variant Goblin) and a bodyguard unit (an LRM Goblin).  The Battery HQ was an HQ vehicle (an MG Goblin with enough Communications Equipment for satellite uplinks) and 3 Ferrets (plus attendant infantry).

[Colt Ward]

Typically the FOs are not part of the battery though they do train with a specific one.  Usually they are attached though regular line grunts are taught to call in infantry they are not as good at accurate CFF as FOs nor do they have any of the specialized equipment.

[Daryk]

The infantry attached to the Battery HQ also pull security, so they're multi-functional.

[2ndAcr]

 Desert Storm and prior US Artillery was 2 platoons of 4 guns, each firing platoon had their own fire direction vehicle. Headquarters platoon would also contain the Batteries ammo section. 3 Batteries to a Battalion.

 Thumper = 105mm
 Sniper = 155mm
 Long Tom = 203mm
 Arrow = Probably the Lance, Pershing is way too big

 That is how I see it any way.

[Colt Ward]

Light artillery was 75mm, Medium Artillery was both 105 & 155mm, and heavy was 203mm . . . Pershing, well all I know was it was a big missile that got thrown- see enough former crew post pics on FB.  Post Desert Storm, each platoon still has its own FDC section.  I assume that was tube?  MLRS was 3x3, and then like I said went to 2x3 . . . to be honest, I was surprised that HIMARs did not alter the format even if it was now 'rocket, light' by increasing the vehicle count.

[2ndAcr]

 75mm went by the wayside around Vietnam or earlier and out of inventory during FASA years. 105mm was the Army's light artillery. 155 was med and 203 was heavy from 1980's to Desert Storm.

 Lance was in use until the late 80's. Before MLRS. I spent a year with 4/31st Inf at Ft Sill in the late 1988-89. Usually beat on the cannon cockers, but I also enjoyed learning everything I could. Spent as much time with the FO's, even the gun bunnies when they would let us. Figured it would not hurt learning as much as I could. Fun times. IIRC, they still had a Lance Battalion at Sill during that time frame. Or it was being deactivated. I remember because we provided security whenever the Russians came a calling to check the Pershing stuff.

 

[Alexander Knight]

House Liao as a percentage, fields twice the artillery of any other faction.  They deploy two battalions of artillery per 'mech regiment vs the one that the other Houses and Periphery States use.

[Retry]

Desert Storm and prior US Artillery was 2 platoons of 4 guns, each firing platoon had their own fire direction vehicle. Headquarters platoon would also contain the Batteries ammo section. 3 Batteries to a Battalion.

 Thumper = 105mm
 Sniper = 155mm
 Long Tom = 203mm
 Arrow = Probably the Lance, Pershing is way too big

 That is how I see it any way.

That's how I interpreted it as well.

I feel if there was a 75mm analog in BT, it'd take the form of some sort of sub-Thumper artillery piece.  Thumper just doesn't feel small enough to represent that.

[Colt Ward]

Reason I broke it down the way I did citing the 60s as where they got their template was we actually had a piece called the Long Tom, though I did slip calibers it was the 155mm.  But early Vietnam from what I found its how they were divided though I think by mid Vietnam the airborne were the only ones with 75mm b/c of drops.

[Alan Grant]

One related weapon we do have caliber on is heavy mortars. Lostech: Mechwarrior's Equipment Guide page 41 says the Heavy Mortar accepts 100mm to 150mm shells.

I tend to equate that to the real life 120mm mortar, which is found in several real life militaries today.

Just a useful bit of context.

One thing I struggle to understand is the damage of that weapon. Infantry weapon stats confound me a bit, especially relative to vehicle/mech scale weapon TRO data.

How does the damage a heavy mortar can do (or an infantry platoon with 4 or 8 of them) compares to say a single Thumper?

Obviously by weight (heavy mortar = 220 kg) and range (heavy mortar = 900 meters) it's vastly different.

[Colt Ward]

Unfortunately we do not really have a mortar analog other than the later mech mortars though IMO BA Artillery is it- especially by the looks!

Not really sure how RPG weapon damage would carry over, do they get the special shells tube artillery get?

[Alan Grant]

Unfortunately we do not really have a mortar analog other than the later mech mortars though IMO BA Artillery is it- especially by the looks!

Not really sure how RPG weapon damage would carry over, do they get the special shells tube artillery get?

There is a whole section in Lostech: The Mechwarrior's Equipment Guide, page 35 that touches on different ordnance types. So basically the answer is yes, and there's a lot of similarities and some of them work across different weapon systems. For example, grenade launchers, recoilless rifles and mortars.

But there are also some that are distinct only direct-fire or only indirect-fire weapons. For example anti-vehicle ordnance is direct fire only. While FASCAM is indirect fire only.

But yeah there's NARC, gas, flare, flash, smoke, Anti-personnel, High Explosive and I'm probably overlooking a couple.

There's an Ordnance class system to govern size and power. With class A being like the size of a button, B a small explosive charge, C a standard grenade, D used by Recoilless Rifles mortars etc and E used in heavy support weapons and mines. The Heavy mortar is class E.

EDIT: If you do a search on Sarna for "Ordnance Types" a page comes up that breaks this down.

[Colt Ward]

Sure, but that is RPG . . . the RPG lists ammo count for BA weapons that TW gives infinite ammo.  All of that existed before, but we still did not have TW vehicles (or many anyway) that had grenade launchers on them to pop off smoke like IRL vehicles.  TW abstracts up some of the RPG effects to simplify what goes on- example we had no mortars on vehicles for TW afaik until mech mortars were introduced recently.

[Alan Grant]

Fair point. I guess the best that can be done is for someone to use the infantry platoon construction rules to make a heavy mortar infantry platoon and go by that. That's at least a Field Artillery Platoon to Heavy Mortar Infantry Platoon comparison.

If anyone wants to take a stab at it, that would be cool. I might make an attempt but I haven't dusted off the unit construction rules in ages and never infantry.

Not an imperative issue, more like a tangent topic curiosity. Discussing this topic is bringing up a lot of things I've never really thought much about before, which is kinda fun.

[Daryk]

I lightly touched on infantry construction in my Glenmora thread.  It's actually pretty easy.  What I like to do is match up long range standard weapons (like the Intek, my favorite) with Auto-Rifles to maximize damage and range without impacting mobility.  If damage and mobility are your goal, simply stick with Auto-Rifles and a single (high damage) support weapon.  If mobility isn't a priority at all, two long-range high-damage support weapons backed by Auto-Rifles is the way to go.

The other major thing to consider for conventional infantry is armor.  Armor Divisor only counts the armor on the torso, and a total BAR rating (across all four types of damage) of 15 is the magic threshold for Divisor 2.  Lyran and Davion jackets (and the FedCom kind, of course), and Ballistic Plate Vests (not suits) can all get you there without a movement penalty.  And they're surprisingly cheap.

[Calimehter]

The Galtor Campaign book dates back to the 80's and used Battleforce 1 rules . . . but it does have a couple of artillery unit organization tables. 

One of the Davion "auxilary guards" units consists of a full battalion of infantry and a full battalion of light recce vehicles (presumably acting as artillery spotters) to go along with the actual battalion of artillery guns. 

A Kurita artillery unit is also detailed . . . 2 companies of light recce vehicles (spotters again) and 1 company of transport vehicles (ammo, one would assume) and 1 company of infantry security goes along with the full artillery battalion in that case.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but the recon companies would not be co-located with the artillery . . . they would be broken up into squads to a company of infantry/armor/mechs that the artillery battalion is tasked to support.  They are not organic to those battalions/regiments they are supporting but more of a task force level asset.  If you were to build them now you would of course grant them the SPA 'Forward Observer' and the would drive something like the Ibex or Kruger cars.

[Minemech]

House Liao as a percentage, fields twice the artillery of any other faction.  They deploy two battalions of artillery per 'mech regiment vs the one that the other Houses and Periphery States use.

The FWLM attaches multiple batteries of Long Toms, and Snipers to infantry battalions. Then it attaches what other houses would view as reinforced infantry regiments to mech regiments...
 That said, I believe the CCAF has the most artillery mech platforms.

 I should note that this is based on the original house book. A later book has more than 90% of the FWLM artillery forces vanishing with no major war, or explanation (They likely skim read it, and missed that detail).

[Alan Grant]

Found a nice gem and I think this was what Minemech was talking about.

FM: FWL page 21. Artillery batteries usually consist of 4-6 Long Toms or 8-12 sniper cannons and their crews and are usually attached to regimental command groups.

Loving this thread, been copying and pasting and saving a lot of what people have contributed for reference later.