Shifting Borders: 3135-3151

[MarauderD]

This week I read through Era Report:3145, Field Manual 3145, and Shattered Sphere.

It lead me to wondering:  how many systems changed hands, and to whom, in this crazy period.  It strikes me that the big losers are the Republic, the Suns, and the Commonwealth.  The winners are the Capellans, Kuritans, Wolves, and Falcons. 

But has anyone really figured out how many systems each faction won and lost?  I can’t seem to find numbers anywhere.

[Colt Ward]

Probably b/c it had not been counted?  You are forgetting the League which first lost worlds to the Lyrans, then the Crusader Wolves & Lyrans, then (along with the Lyrans who lost theirs & occupied worlds) to the Crusader Wolves who stopped short of Atreus . . . which is a pretty deep penetration from the Star League & SW era borders.

Also, if you listen to it from the Capellans they just recovered worlds . . . like you know, Chesterton . . . and plan to recover Terra.

[MarauderD]

Probably b/c it had not been counted?  You are forgetting the League which first lost worlds to the Lyrans, then the Crusader Wolves & Lyrans, then (along with the Lyrans who lost theirs & occupied worlds) to the Crusader Wolves who stopped short of Atreus . . . which is a pretty deep penetration from the Star League & SW era borders.

Also, if you listen to it from the Capellans they just recovered worlds . . . like you know, Chesterton . . . and plan to recover Terra.

The league as well.  I guess we'll maybe get a more accurate count once ilClan is published.  Seems like quite a bit of planets changed hands from 3132 or whenever the blackout started to 3151. 

[Annwn]

I too would like to have ilClan include territorial summaries.  One thing I liked about the Succession War books is some of the planet tallies they did.  I'd like to see it continue.

[Orwell84]

It would be an interesting tally. Although it wouldn't always tell the full story - the FedSuns' net loss post-1SW being a prime example of not conveying just how badly they got mauled.

Hopefully there's a computer program up to the task. Otherwise, to quote Mr T, I pity the fool volunteering to manually count them all :)

[Colt Ward]

Well . . . off the top of my head, I would say the Republic lost 85% of their territory (at least) before the Fortress came down.

[MarauderD]

Interesting question:  assuming there is an ilClan--do they immediately seek conquest of nearby planets as well?  Would the Wolves or Falcons or Bears just relinquish their holdings and try to take up the location the republic once held?  Is that even feasible?

The only way I see that it is is that we've seen the Wolves do it already this century.  Don't know if the Falcons or Bears could do it as well.  Come to think of it, I feel like the Bears and Rasalhague people have melded a bit.  I don't think they would make a good candidate.  So Wolves and Falcons it is.

[Colt Ward]

The Crusader Wolves were conquering their way towards Terra already- they were halted at the Fortress . . . and then it came down . . .

[Orwell84]

Interesting question:  assuming there is an ilClan--do they immediately seek conquest of nearby planets as well?  Would the Wolves or Falcons or Bears just relinquish their holdings and try to take up the location the republic once held?  Is that even feasible?

The only way I see that it is is that we've seen the Wolves do it already this century.  Don't know if the Falcons or Bears could do it as well.  Come to think of it, I feel like the Bears and Rasalhague people have melded a bit.  I don't think they would make a good candidate.  So Wolves and Falcons it is.

Why would they need to up stakes and move to Terra's neighbourhood? The Falcons or Bears are already close enough that Terra would simply be the southernmost extension of their empire. Garrisoning it might require ceding some border worlds elsewhere but given that the Elsies are *cuss*ed right now and the Dragon's overstretched, neither Clan is in serious danger of losing anything vital to them.

On a different note, I just did a rough count of territorial exchanges from Clan Wolf's former OZ and Operation NOYAN:
Hell Horses: 22 (from CW) + 5 (from NOYAN) = gain of 27
Jade Falcon: 12 (from CW) - 2 (from NOYAN) = net gain of 10
Rasalhague Dominion: 15 (from CW) - 3 (from NOYAN) = net gain of 12
Lyran Commonwealth: 7 (from CW) - 5 of those (to CJF) = net gain of 2

[Colt Ward]

Heck, the Wolf Empire by FM3145 writing is practically writing off the periphery edge of their territory as they shift closer to Terra.

[Iracundus]

My manual count for the Capellan Confederation:

3135-3145:

+31 systems from Republic
+32 systems from Federated Suns

Net: +63 systems

From 3145-3151:

+12 from Republic
+5 from Federated Suns
-11 to Federated Suns

Net: +6 systems

So the Capellan Confederation gained a net of +69 systems from 3135 to 3151.

Draconis Combine:

3135-3145:

+10 from previously disputed systems
+30 from Republic
+53 from Federated Suns
+1 from Lyran Alliance/Commonwealth
-3 to Raven Alliance

Net: +91 systems

3145-3151:

+3 from Republic
+12 from Federated Suns
-10 to Federated Suns
-2 to Ghost Bears

Net: +3

Draconis Combine is a net +94 systems from 3135-3151.

[Orwell84]

<snip>
So the Capellan Confederation gained a net of +69 systems from 3135 to 3151.
<snip>
Draconis Combine is a net +94 systems from 3135-3151.

My hat is off to you Iracundus. Great effort, and I'll flatter you by imitation :) :clap:


On the other side of the Sphere, Clan Jade Falcon (in my rough estimate):

3132-3135:
+10 systems from the Republic (the Falcon's Reach)

3135-3145:
+39 systems from the Lyran Commonwealth
+10 systems abandoned by Clan Wolf
+11 systems from the Republic
Net: +60 systems

3145-3150:
+2 systems from the Lyran Commonwealth
-2 systems to the Lyran Commonwealth
-2 systems to Clan Hell's Horses
-1 system (Skye) to the Wolf Empire
+4 systems from the Republic
Net: +1 system

So with a gain of 71 systems Turkina's children have equalled House Liao in spreading the greenfly plague across colour maps of the Inner Sphere.

[truetanker]

Wonder if anybody has done the Homeworld Clans border shifts yet?

Just curious...

TT

[Orwell84]

Wonder if anybody has done the Homeworld Clans border shifts yet?

Just curious...

TT

From some notes I jotted down years ago...

Territorial Holdings from 3067 - 3085
Note: Colleen's two settlements and the Tanite trio are counted as single worlds in this list
Both of the above plus fifteen other worlds were uninhabited by 3085

Clan Blood Spirit
3067: 4 worlds (1 exclusive, 3 shared)
3075: 6 worlds (1 exclusive, 5 shared)
3085: N/A, deader than fried chicken

Clan Cloud Cobra
3067: 6 worlds (all shared)
3075: 16 worlds (4 exclusive, 12 shared)
3085: 12 worlds (5 exclusive, 7 shared)

Clan Coyote
3067: 7 worlds (1 exclusive, 6 shared)
3075: 8 worlds (2 exclusive, 6 shared)
3085: 10 worlds (2 exclusive, 8 shared)

Clan Diamond Shark
3067: 7 worlds (1 exclusive, 6 shared)
3075: N/A, swam away to the scent of Spheroid blood

Clan Fried Mandrill
3067: 7 worlds (1 exclusive, 6 shared)
3075: N/A, strutted into the fiery crucible of the Reaving; found wanting, they emerged not through the other side

Clan Ghost Bear
3067: 2 worlds (both shared)
3075: N/A, quit the Homeworlds and got busy killing Wolverines Blakists

Clan Goliath Scorpion
3067: 6 worlds (all shared)
3075: 10 worlds (3 exclusive, 7 shared)
3085: N/A, expelled after getting caught with their pincer in the genetic cookie jar

Clan Hell's Horses
3067: 9 worlds (2 exclusive, 7 shared)
3075: see Clan Stone Lion

Clan Ice Hellion
3067: 12 worlds (1 exclusive, 11 shared)
3075: N/A, got a sensible Khan twenty years too late

Clan Jade Falcon
3067: 11 worlds (2 exclusive, 9 shared)
3075: N/A, suffered a Steel Viper eviction in reverse (but still got the better bargain in the end)

Clan Snow Raven
3067: 6 worlds (1 exclusive, 5 shared)
3075: N/A, moved in with the space Amish

Clan Star Adder
3067: 14 worlds (3 exclusive, 11 shared)
3075: 14 worlds (3 exclusive, 11 shared)
3085: 13 worlds (7 exclusive, 6 shared) - probably the only Clan whose exclusive holdings ever outnumbered shared worlds

Clan Steel Viper
3067: 5 worlds (all shared)
3075: N/A, destroyed by ilKhan Andrews' own stupid phrasing

Clan Stone Lion
3067: Still in the Horses' womb
3075: 7 worlds (all shared)
3085: 10 worlds (2 exclusive, 8 shared)

Clan Wolf
3067: 11 worlds (1 exclusive, 10 shared)
3075: N/A, traded the Homeworlds for an empire

[MarauderD]

Wow!  FedSuns lost 92 systems including New Avalon from 3035-3151.  With the rise of the CCAF, I'm not sure who comes out weakest after the ilClan sourcebook, but the FedSuns might now be the small kid on the block.  I'm not sure the AFFS could rebuild without the intact industry on New Avalon.

Even assuming they win it back from the Combine, if the DCMS forces employ scorched earth on the military industries, I'd say that the fat lady was singing.

[Dahmin_Toran]

Well they never lost Kathil, Galax, or Archenar so their industrial base is not totally gone.

[MarauderD]

As far as I know, Galax is a fully dead world, destroyed by the Word of Blake biological attack.  Federated Boeing has no industry there, and the shipyards are dead.

[PsihoKekec]

And they last all of their major academies, except for Goshen War College and Armstrong Flight Academy, so there will be officer shortage in the future, even with the reduced size of the AFFS.

[Colt Ward]

What about the Periphery March training site?  Plus they can still induct into the NAIS cadres that exist.

[MarauderD]

I'm just hoping the FedSuns doesn't have to go through the period the CapCon did from 3030-3050, when it was a sad little rump state. 

Well, without being snarky, what fiat giveth, fiat taketh away.  Easy come, easy go, eh?

[PsihoKekec]

However CapCon never got Sian occupied, while FS lost New Avalon. Outside of Jihad that's an unique event.

[Colt Ward]

However CapCon never got Sian occupied, while FS lost New Avalon. Outside of Jihad that's an unique event.

Not just New Avalon- at one point the ONLY March Capital they had was the newest for the Periphery March.

And the FedSuns/FedCom has been taking it since the mid-90s while Sunny & Co have been a miracle workers since then.

[MarauderD]

Agree on both counts.  I wonder what kind of order an ilClan would try to impose on warring houses outside of their borders.  Also, would they try to push out to the borders of the old Terran Hegemony or Republic of the Sphere?  Because that would take pressure off of the Fed Suns while the CCAF and DCMS fought against Clan invaders on their coreward regions.

[Colt Ward]

The FedSuns; saved by the Clans led by Hanse grandkid

[MarauderD]

On the other hand, if Hanse hadn't sent 8 regiments of elite mercenaries to Luthien, the FedSuns wouldn't be in this position.  But that is a whole nother thread, right?

[Lord Harlock]

On the other hand, if Hanse hadn't sent 8 regiments of elite mercenaries to Luthien, the FedSuns wouldn't be in this position.  But that is a whole nother thread, right?

To be fair, Hanse probably never expected his Kitty Kat to turn on the FedCom.

Agree on both counts.  I wonder what kind of order an ilClan would try to impose on warring houses outside of their borders.  Also, would they try to push out to the borders of the old Terran Hegemony or Republic of the Sphere?  Because that would take pressure off of the Fed Suns while the CCAF and DCMS fought against Clan invaders on their coreward regions.

If the Suns survives into the ilClan, let's hope it has an independent military, and that it is still an independent nation without any hooks from Stoners. Also, it'd be nice to have no Peace Princes, but somehow the curse of the Fourth Succession War haunts everything in a meta sense. A win would be nice as well.

[VensersRevenge]

I still think accommodation with whoever becomes IlClan will be necessary for the Suns, unless the battle for Terra weakens the Kurita's and Liao's enough they can reclaim planets easily.

[Orwell84]

Also, it'd be nice to have no Peace Princes, but somehow the curse of the Fourth Succession War haunts everything in a meta sense. A win would be nice as well.

Agreed. The FedSuns has suffered enough and is due for a resounding victory. They don't need another 4SW curb-stomp, just a clear triumph over Liao or Kurita. Come to think of it, has the latter ever experienced any major territorial losses to Davion? I don't count the 1SW or losing Robinson after the 2SW, since the end result was status quo ante bellum.

I still think accommodation with whoever becomes IlClan will be necessary for the Suns, unless the battle for Terra weakens the Kurita's and Liao's enough they can reclaim planets easily.

Not the most implausible scenario, if the ilClan leads to the reborn Star League with Stone / the ROTS as major players. Julian's alliance with the latter would pay off at this point, since it would be in the ilClan's interest to help his battered realm against the two strongest Successor States.

[Iracundus]

Despite House Liao's seemingly runaway gains for the last few decades of game time, they actually still haven't even recovered to their initial starting position at the start of the Succession Wars, and the FedSuns still hold some original Liao territory if you compare the maps.  That shows just how much of a punching bag the Confederation was for the writers.  What STL did was to resuscitate a rump state on death's door to something slightly approaching its original territory, and did this reversal of several centuries of loss in his lifetime.  The FedSuns may have lost many systems, but many of these systems were systems they had taken from others. 

If the ilClan were to be like a reset of the Star League, the FedSuns would actually need to lose more systems along its border with the Confederation, though it would regain systems along its border with the Combine.

[VensersRevenge]

Which seems like an incentive to play nice with whoever becomes IlClan, instead of throwing forces into a futile effort to take Terra. Also Liao would have t give Chesterton back to create the 2750 border, and that's never going to happen willingly.

The Suns took Quentin from the Combine during the Third Succession War. That looks like the only factory world the Combine ever lost to the Suns for more than a couple years.

[Colt Ward]

Despite House Liao's seemingly runaway gains for the last few decades of game time, they actually still haven't even recovered to their initial starting position at the start of the Succession Wars, and the FedSuns still hold some original Liao territory if you compare the maps.  That shows just how much of a punching bag the Confederation was for the writers.  What STL did was to resuscitate a rump state on death's door to something slightly approaching its original territory, and did this reversal of several centuries of loss in his lifetime.  The FedSuns may have lost many systems, but many of these systems were systems they had taken from others. 

If the ilClan were to be like a reset of the Star League, the FedSuns would actually need to lose more systems along its border with the Confederation, though it would regain systems along its border with the Combine.

Huh?  They have CHESTERTON . . . which was NEVER part of the CapCon and they had New Syrtis.  They also have Hegemony worlds they never took before 1SW broke out.  The FS had lost most of the Capellan and Draconis March along with significant portions of the Crucis March before they started pushing back.  The Cappies are at a point they of being the largest in their whole existence between swallowing large chunks of the Capellan March, Republic territory, Andurien worlds and some former League non-aligned worlds.  Throw in the barely described Andurien, Canopian, Capellan (love?) triangle for effective (depending on interpretation) control, and yeah for 15 years the Cappies are at the strongest point they have probably ever been.

We were introduced to the map pre-4SW, that is the starting point for the narrative and everything since is back fill- so starting from that point they had a brief gain in what became the Sarna March, but lost a important world (Quentin) in War of 3039, then the Sarna March in '57 (leaving out Lyran Clan Invasion losses), lost their puppet/buffer state in St Ives in early 60s, lost more worlds to the Dracs and Cappies in the FCCW, gave up more worlds after the Jihad to the Republic . . . and then had both enemies take advantage of the Dark Ages.  Its something like 25+ years of losing territory from the starting point.

[MarauderD]

The Chesterton/Tikonov/New Hessen area was a HUGE win for the CC.  Both in material for war with the factories on Tikonov and New Hessen and the emotional value of Chesterton (which never was able to join the CC it has been part of the FedSuns since 2357--that is 800 years!!!) and Tikonov. 

This Capellan Confederation is the most powerful iteration of the state we've seen since the game's inception, and may well be the most powerful of the five Successor states in 3151. 

[Colt Ward]

I think the Dracs might still edge them, but its close . . . and I am expecting the Dracs to have problems with succession- Yori is dead as soon as she produces an heir, surprised the Warlord has not married her off to a son or ward.  While the Cappies have their own instability in the succession (Daoshen being nutters), Danai is the clear heir.

[VensersRevenge]

Huh?  They have CHESTERTON . . . which was NEVER part of the CapCon and they had New Syrtis.

The Chesterton area is in 3151 the only area the Capellans gained from the Suns compared to 2750. The Sirdar PDZ and much of the border planet's were Capellan in 2750. I agree with you that the map in 3025 is more important for comparing the borders between the Capellans and the Sun's, but he is correct.

[Rainbow 6]

The Suns took Quentin from the Combine during the Third Succession War. That looks like the only factory world the Combine ever lost to the Suns for more than a couple years.

The Combine lost Marduk to the Suns in the 4th war and have never recovered it.

[Decoy]

No. The Combine lost Marduk as the 3rd war ended, regained it during the 4th and only lost it again during the post Jihad fall out. Needless to say, they've regained it in the current invasion

[VensersRevenge]

The Combine lost Marduk to the Suns in the 4th war and have never recovered it.

This is based on 2750 borders. Marduk was Suns territory then.

[Orwell84]

I think the Dracs might still edge them, but its close . . . and I am expecting the Dracs to have problems with succession- Yori is dead as soon as she produces an heir, surprised the Warlord has not married her off to a son or ward.  While the Cappies have their own instability in the succession (Daoshen being nutters), Danai is the clear heir.

According to FM:3145 the CCAF actually outnumbers the DCMS by a dozen Mech regiments (51 to 39), and the disparity is even greater with the AFFS and RAF. Granted, that says nothing about the quality of the troops in question, but as Blessed Blake once said God marches on the side of the big battalions, and the CCAF appears to at least match their enemies in quality as well.

As to Draconian succession, it's clear throughout Shattered Fortress that Yori's increasingly becoming her own woman. For the moment the two still need each other, but if anything I'd actually expect Toranaga to one day come down with a case of You Have Outlived Your Usefulness^TM, and Yori can keep emulating Elizabeth I and stay childless as long as Toranaga still a threat to her.

[Colt Ward]

Really?  I read it as she has been more isolated and Toranaga is still controlling the military and still riding the victories.  The ISF has had some problems b/c of the Cats & Tormark- actually Katana could have been a ally early on but 'her' regiments are long gone with the officers rotting in unmarked graves.  I DO wonder if the Dragoon's change of treatment reflects a power play between Yori and her Gunrei.

[VensersRevenge]

I mean, she built an entire regiment without Toranaga knowing, which is described as her becoming independent of his control.

[Orwell84]

Really?  I read it as she has been more isolated and Toranaga is still controlling the military and still riding the victories.  The ISF has had some problems b/c of the Cats & Tormark- actually Katana could have been a ally early on but 'her' regiments are long gone with the officers rotting in unmarked graves.  I DO wonder if the Dragoon's change of treatment reflects a power play between Yori and her Gunrei.

I mean, she built an entire regiment without Toranaga knowing, which is described as her becoming independent of his control.

Did a quick skim-through of Shattered Fortress, and I don't think Yori's as powerless as that. More like she needs Toranaga and does respect him as a capable leader of her armies, but is also making it clear that she is the Combine's ruler and gaining the popular support to back that up.

As mentioned above, the fact Yori raised a whole unit without Toranaga's knowledge indicates she has allies elsewhere, and for all his annoyance with her at times the Kanrei himself still obeys her directives. Of course, unless any fiction comes out we're not seeing into the characters' heads, and things may change if the Combine's fortunes take a turn for the worse. Which I suspect is going to happen when the ilClan era arrives.

[Iracundus]

The Chesterton area is in 3151 the only area the Capellans gained from the Suns compared to 2750. The Sirdar PDZ and much of the border planet's were Capellan in 2750. I agree with you that the map in 3025 is more important for comparing the borders between the Capellans and the Sun's, but he is correct.

I use the 2750 borders because that was the peacetime border and the time right before the start of the wars when all the states were considered roughly on par with each other, and ignoring all the worlds that dropped off the map in the course of the SW. 

Although the Confederation temporarily gained New Syrtis, it has since lost it, and it has gained Chesterton, which while of great symbolic significance to the Confederation, is still ultimately just 1 world.  There is a whole block of worlds up to Quittacas and Stein's Folly that were originally Capellan that are still in FedSuns' hands.  In terms of material resources and value, those worlds add up to more than Chesterton.  As a practical realist, I would prefer those worlds over the single world of Chesterton.  As an aside, the 2750 Confederation border with the FWL has still also not been quite restored in 3151.

In 3025, the universe started with the Confederation already as the boxer on the ropes barely clinging to life (and getting further pounding in 4th SW), and its backstory is almost one of incessant loss.  While the FedSuns had initial 1st SW setbacks, its story since then has been mostly of triumphs or at least steady advances with very little of its original territory ever being lost to anybody by 3025.  If there were to be some form of reset, I would prefer one where all the states ended up more or less equal, and not one where one state is on life support as designated loser while another is the developer anointed winner.  I don't see the Confederation or the Combine truly conquering the Suns, but I don't see the Suns being put back to an equal standing as a bad thing.  If the SW were a foot race, the game started in 3025 with the Suns almost a lap ahead, and the Confederation running in reverse for a lap. 

The Suns have spent the last decades in both game time and real time losing territory because they were built up to be this unstoppable military juggernaut that won whatever it put its mind to before so something had to be done to pare back the gains in order to maintain the setting.  Perhaps STL doing most of the regaining in his lifetime was ham handed writer fiat, but the alternative might have been several centuries of incompetent rulers (like a Suns equivalent of Dainmar Liao?) and mistakes with the Confederation and Combine nibbling away at the Suns.  That alternative could have led to supporters of both sides being dissatisfied.   The craziness of Caleb Davion was another ham handed way of making the Suns stumble that I think could have been done better or more subtly.  The trope of the insane ruler has been used too often IMO for all Houses as the explanation for less than successful rulers. 

As for the Combine, I can easily see a civil war or shadow war between Toranaga and Yori, and this is what gives the Suns a breather or opportunity to regain territory.  Succession crisis/struggle for the throne and digesting conquests for both Combine and Confederation is what I see saving the Suns from total disintegration, even if the Suns don't necessarily regain all lost worlds.

[Minemech]

 Do not underestimate the symbolic import of the Confederation holding Chesterton. Its conquest may have affected morale more than the reclaiming of Liao. I agree that it is shortsighted from a strategic perspective, but the Chancellor needs capital to highlight his Tianming.

[Iracundus]

Do not underestimate the symbolic import of the Confederation holding Chesterton. Its conquest may have affected morale more than the reclaiming of Liao. I agree that it is shortsighted from a strategic perspective, but the Chancellor needs capital to highlight his Tianming.

Taking back so many other worlds from Republic and FedSuns would provide that political capital justifying his Mandate of Heaven IMO.

Although the symbolic significance of Chesterton to the Confederation might be of use to the First Prince as a bargaining chip.  Maybe secure an armistice in return for Chesterton?  That would allow the Suns to fight a 1 front war against the Combine, though of course this would open Julian up for criticism for "selling out" the people of Chesterton and embolden critics within his regime.

[Minemech]

Taking back so many other worlds from Republic and FedSuns would provide that political capital justifying his Mandate of Heaven IMO.

To the Confederation, Chesterton has always been a part of the kingdom, a part that has been trampled upon by barbarians. This is unjust. It is up to the Chancellor to restore order as part of his mandate.

[VensersRevenge]

I use the 2750 borders because that was the peacetime border and the time right before the start of the wars when all the states were considered roughly on par with each other, and ignoring all the worlds that dropped off the map in the course of the SW. 

Although the Confederation temporarily gained New Syrtis, it has since lost it, and it has gained Chesterton, which while of great symbolic significance to the Confederation, is still ultimately just 1 world.  There is a whole block of worlds up to Quittacas and Stein's Folly that were originally Capellan that are still in FedSuns' hands.  In terms of material resources and value, those worlds add up to more than Chesterton.  As a practical realist, I would prefer those worlds over the single world of Chesterton.  As an aside, the 2750 Confederation border with the FWL has still also not been quite restored in 3151.

In 3025, the universe started with the Confederation already as the boxer on the ropes barely clinging to life (and getting further pounding in 4th SW), and its backstory is almost one of incessant loss.  While the FedSuns had initial 1st SW setbacks, its story since then has been mostly of triumphs or at least steady advances with very little of its original territory ever being lost to anybody by 3025.  If there were to be some form of reset, I would prefer one where all the states ended up more or less equal, and not one where one state is on life support as designated loser while another is the developer anointed winner.  I don't see the Confederation or the Combine truly conquering the Suns, but I don't see the Suns being put back to an equal standing as a bad thing.  If the SW were a foot race, the game started in 3025 with the Suns almost a lap ahead, and the Confederation running in reverse for a lap. 

I understand where you are coming from. I'm not going to pretend to agree because I am a Fed Suns fan, but I do understand where you are coming from. But 3025 is, even if I don't care much for the era myself, the basis of how people see the Battletech map and it's balance. And people see planet's like Bell as Davion planets because of that. I'm not saying that Julian Davion should push them back to Kittery again, but the 2750 borders simply aren't what people think of when they think of national borders.

[Iracundus]

I understand where you are coming from. I'm not going to pretend to agree because I am a Fed Suns fan, but I do understand where you are coming from. But 3025 is, even if I don't care much for the era myself, the basis of how people see the Battletech map and it's balance. And people see planet's like Bell as Davion planets because of that. I'm not saying that Julian Davion should push them back to Kittery again, but the 2750 borders simply aren't what people think of when they think of national borders.

I used to be a FedSuns and FedCom fan in my younger days but switched sides because I felt sorry for the underdog, that kept getting beat up non-stop in their backstory and in the 4th SW, and the developer favoritism started to grate on my nerves.  I mean the white hatting, where the Davion/Steiner characters were pretty obviously the protagonists that the reader was "meant" to cheer for even if they didn't win in the end.   

Actually I have always thought of the 2750 borders as the original national borders, even from the very beginning when FASA had not released the original borders, as that was the most objective indicator of the progress of each state and their claim to First Lord, so please don't assume your position is the default one for everyone.  For me the 3025 situation was always an "unnatural" one resulting from the exhaustion of all the states, and their inability to do much more than raid.

[Colt Ward]

Which is the point, they have not been the favorite for 25 years- but that image still sticks with them.

[Iracundus]

Which is the point, they have not been the favorite for 25 years- but that image still sticks with them.

One has to consider the magnitude of the favoritism.  They almost swallowed up the Confederation.  All the years since have been essentially undoing what was handed to them in one fell swoop with the 4th SW.  Even when Victor failed in the books, I still got the sense of "oh he meant well" flawed hero.

From the beginning, the FedSuns started off in a stronger position and were seen as maybe even the eventual winners.  I admit that was sort of why a younger me sided with them before I fully appreciated the different sides or the necessity of there being no final winner if the setting were to continue.  I don't see the FedSuns being reduced from their dominant starting position as anything more than bringing things back to an equilibrium state. 

It's like making things equal between the Empire and Rebellion in Star Wars by giving the Empire back a Death Star like how it started back in 1977.  Except that the starting position was anything but equal.

[Minemech]

Even when Victor failed in the books, I still got the sense of "oh he meant well" flawed hero.

As a general rule, this is common when things are read from the protagonist's point of view. It is quite easy to read Victor as an obnoxious, and self-centered brat who views himself as too good for House Davion--he thinks that he is the Star Lord. Gavin Dow cryptically says as much when Victor returns to Comstar.

[Guardsman]

Not just New Avalon- at one point the ONLY March Capital they had was the newest for the Periphery March.

And the FedSuns/FedCom has been taking it since the mid-90s while Sunny & Co have been a miracle workers since then.

It truly is a sight to behold when you combine the engineering skill of Montgomery Scott and the fighting prowess of Duncan MacLeod.

[James Bedford]

Does anyone have a nice colored map of 3150 lying about?  Sarna.net seems to, as their entries for each planet uses the most up to date map in the profile, but I can't find where they are getting that map.  It sure looks nice though, what they got.

[Zeruel]

I've coloured the map from shattered fortress, I dunno if you can call it a nicely coloured one compared to the one on sarna.net, but if you want it, send me a pm

[MarauderD]

Bit of a thread necro, but pretty interested in this.

ilClan is nigh.  What happens to the rapidly shifting borders of the Inner Sphere powers once the Republic becomes the holding of the ilClan?

Do you all think fighting will accelerate or stop?  We know the Capellans are going to get involved on Terra--potentially getting mauled or maybe just playing spoiler.  Will the DCMS get involved at all?

A few folks thought that Stone would demand help from the FedSuns, which really doesn't seem possible due to how thin they are.

What do you all think?

[Decoy]

I reread a splinter of hope recently to make sure I wasn't imagining things regarding certain characters. All it will take for the FedSuns to go down is a bit of threatening language.

[Colt Ward]

 . . . Operation Eruptio has happened.  The Drac front is in chaos- especially with the Dragoons leaving their service, maybe even some having to fight their way out- while the Cappies are focused on the Republic border.  Heck, they are probably in their best position Dec 3150 than they have been since Caleb died.

[Decoy]

You haven't read Splinter of Hope, have you, Colt? It ends on basically Julian going "I'll be a good boy, Danai. Please don't hurt me. Please."

[Colt Ward]

Yes I have . . . and what is the date of that book?  The new characters in that book were fine but Danai, her old friend who commanded the Dynasty Guard, and Julian are all unfortunately portrayed as different characters than they were in MWDA.  Julian is not in top form during that meeting.

For timing IIRC its roughly mid-way in Shattered Sphere . . . the Capellan front stabilized and Daoshen is looking to the Republic- which is handing him a lot of pain.  Which is why I said that by the time Shattered Sphere ended, Dec 3150, the FedSuns is in their best position since Caleb died.  It is not the beginning of the end but perhaps it is the end of the beginning.

[MarauderD]

Stability on the front between Davion and Liao would give the 'Davion Irregular' forces we ready about the best chance to reconquer the Dragon's Tongue region.

As for New Avalon, I'm assuming the DCMS will go razed earth on their way out.  My poor Valkyrie factory.

[Decoy]

Yes I have . . . and what is the date of that book?  The new characters in that book were fine but Danai, her old friend who commanded the Dynasty Guard, and Julian are all unfortunately portrayed as different characters than they were in MWDA.  Julian is not in top form during that meeting.

And yet it is canon. Until the day that TPTB chooses to uncanonize it, that is the Julian we have. If this is the Julian we have, you can understand why my hopes are so low.

[MarauderCH IIC]

Do you all think fighting will accelerate or stop?  We know the Capellans are going to get involved on Terra--potentially getting mauled or maybe just playing spoiler.  Will the DCMS get involved at all?

What do you all think?

In a Wolfnet Radio podcast, Brent Evans said something very interesting concerning this. He commented that with the HPG network down, who is even going to know that a battle for Terra has been fought and will the winner want that info to get out immediately? Is whichever clan that wins just going to broadcast it to the IS or are they going to take time to consolidate their strength? Maybe the winner puts the wall back up?

[Metallgewitter]

Though how do they put the wall up again when the main resource for the wall (KF batteries if I remember correctly) is drying up? Unless Stone's plan was to bait the most dangerous opponent in and then trap them within the Republic by simply destroying all information on how to slip through the walls.

[warhammer74]

I call anything after 3100 BS The Davions would not Have lost New Avalon to the snakes.  Just my Opinion.

[vaderi]

I call anything after 3100 BS The Davions would not Have lost New Avalon to the snakes.  Just my Opinion.

How do you figure? I'd argue that it's frankly impressive they haven't lost more given how much they lost at Palmyra and fighting a war on two fronts. Also worth noting that the Combine has basically stripped their Dominion border of troops and the FedSuns are in a 1st Succession war type situation without the benefit of a Kentares Massacre. They also spent more than one year without central leadership after having spent most of a decade centralizing supply and Command Chains.

[Colt Ward]

The FedSuns also bought into Stone's disarmament more than their neighbors.  The Cappies just hid gear in the mountains while the Dracs maintained the whole Bushido thing . . . and Katana took a lot of Republic forces with her to the Combine along with a few years steady MAD II production.

[VensersRevenge]

But wasted limited 'Mech slots to build the Scarecrow instead of using combined arms. Their entire thing.

[MarauderD]

I need to see New Avalon returned to the AFFS, and some of the Dragon's Tongue reconquered.  Then I'll be sure we're headed in the right direction.  For some strange reason Tancredi also bothers me--I feel like New Ivaarsen, Tancredi, and a few other planets may have symbolic importance as well as strategic importance.

[truetanker]

This is what happens to Davion fiat!

It gets eaten up and your sad.

Hey at least you guys can say for sure where and what happens to you, me otoh, have no information about the Homie clans...

Which hurts... WoRS, of which I don't have, is all the info I gots!

But years of Davion fiat is 3025!  ;D

( Fun rant over, no harm feelings meant. )

TT

[VensersRevenge]

This is what happens to Davion fiat!

It gets eaten up and your sad.

Hey at least you guys can say for sure where and what happens to you, me otoh, have no information about the Homie clans...

Which hurts... WoRS, of which I don't have, is all the info I gots!

But years of Davion fiat is 3025!  ;D

( Fun rant over, no harm feelings meant. )

TT

I genuinely don't care that House Davion is on the back foot in the Dark Ages, although I will admit being the only Successor State to have their capital occupied by a non Word of Blake faction is a little grating. We never got to occupy Sian after all. What annoys me is the fact that our being on the back foot is explained as drawing down the military during the Pax Republica, but we began building the Scarecrow?!

[Colt Ward]

This is what happens to Davion fiat!

This gets old . . . FedSuns have been catching it for over 25 years IRL and nearly 100 years in game time, but folks love to trot out this BT trope.


Back to the original topic . . . IMO the biggest border question marks would be the Lyrans out near Son Hoa, Lyran's Falcon border, and if Nikol will be as respectful of the Wolf border as her mother was before.  Trillian, and Nikol to a lesser extent, have some rather quiet borders with the Wolves & Falcons focused towards Terra for at least a year or two.  Trillian should be using this time to restore order and bring whatever that took Son Hoa away back into the fold.

Nikol with a stable border with the Wolves can work the Periphery, unaligned worlds and the neoTrinity border . . . especially since the Cappies are distracted.  Heck, for all Stone spoke with Julian he should have been sending the same sort of negotiation with Nikol- hit the Cappies and get concessions like acknowledging the League's control of Irian.

[truetanker]

Colt~

It's a Grognard joke.

Most new players wouldn't understand it, but apparently your one of us!  :thumbsup:

And that's what make it funny, someone defending the stupid, but true, joke.

Like how a hundred labors can carry a single 2000 lb. metal nail to meet their yearly quota of copper for their Chancellor!
( House Liao Sourcebook, FASA #1624 )

TT

[Jaim Magnus]

I genuinely don't care that House Davion is on the back foot in the Dark Ages, although I will admit being the only Successor State to have their capital occupied by a non Word of Blake faction is a little grating. We never got to occupy Sian after all. What annoys me is the fact that our being on the back foot is explained as drawing down the military during the Pax Republica, but we began building the Scarecrow?!

Well, it could be worse. Tharkad was held in such poor regard that not one, but TWO Clans up and left after conquering it and killing the Archon.

[Colt Ward]

Well, do not forget Alaric also left with the paintings . . .

 . . . but both Clans ended up leaving because one did.  In some ways Tharkad is a foreshadowing of what will happen on Terra- except Alaric will not be leaving.  The Wolves will get their pick of the invasion areas (Australia into SE Asia to drive to Europe?) leaving the Falcons to land in places the Wolves do not want immediately.  Malvina will not see it that way though, and not have Beckett to whisper to her about WHY Geneva is open to her attacks.

Falcons choke on the Geneva chicken bone, Tara attempts to halt the Wolves' thrust led by Anastasia (who kills or captures Tara), Alaric battles Stone for his remnants and then the newly expanded Wolf touman (now swollen by the surviving Republic troops) get to wipe the Falcons . . . Anastasia kills Malvina, or they kill each other . . . in a reverse repeat of 3057, the Wolves declare the battle on Terra was the ilClan absorbing a challenger with Stephanie Christu as the surviving Falcon leader falling to Alaric.

[Decoy]

I'm going to add a little thought to this because it's a theme in battletech that hasn't been used lately.

The Julian on June (Herein referred to as "Noodle") is a double. The real Julian ("Gigavictor") is on Terra. Wasn't Gigavictor the one who defeated Alaric when they were wargaming during Victor's funeral? It would also explain the many discrepancies between Gigavictor and Noodle. For example, in the beginning of Splinter of Hope, he's reminding himself why Gigavictor would fight. It also explains why the Republic sent a doctor out to help fix up Noodle. Someone might notice the switch. Or they could have switched Gigavictor back with Noodle. Imagine being told that some guy messed things up and that they needed to chop off a leg and some fingers for it.

[Colt Ward]

Eh . . .

I do not think we would have gotten the scene showing off the Dawn Guard in their bunker.

[MarauderD]

Eh . . .

I do not think we would have gotten the scene showing off the Dawn Guard in their bunker.

I think the best we can hope for with Julian's injury is it makes him more a Hanse style "leading through planning" and less a Victor style "jump in my assault mech and win!" type First Prince.  I think the injury/maiming will probably change him for the worse, but it could bring out good qualities as well.  We'll see what the writers do with it. 

[Frogfoot]

Julian Davion getting home by punching his way through the Confederation (stopping over at Terra on the way) and then not only liberating New Syrtis but defeating the CCAF's second attempt to capture it is probably my favourite storyline of Shattered Fortress. What happens to him after this? Well Daoshen Liao - a mad Liao with delusions of divinity and a capable successor in the shape of his sister in the wings - seems narratively positioned to get stomped flat by someone soon. If not Stone then Julian, and if not Julian then someone else.

[Colt Ward]

It is Danai naming her new mech after Julian that I find a head scratcher . . . Republic kills Daoshen (who moved closer to the front), Republic dies to the Wolves . . . Danai hooks up with Julian for the long awaited rise of the Confederated Suns?

[MarauderD]

It is Danai naming her new mech after Julian that I find a head scratcher . . . Republic kills Daoshen (who moved closer to the front), Republic dies to the Wolves . . . Danai hooks up with Julian for the long awaited rise of the Confederated Suns?

Cool concept, but culturally incompatible.  Remember how the Draconis March reacted to Victor and Omi?  I think the same thing would happen all over again, wouldn't it?

[Frogfoot]

Cool concept, but culturally incompatible.  Remember how the Draconis March reacted to Victor and Omi?  I think the same thing would happen all over again, wouldn't it?

Maybe, but then the Capellan Marchers don't have Angela Hasek to rally around any more. If the Fedsuns can't retake New Avalon then New Syrtis will be the new capital.

[Decoy]

Danai would name a 'mech Julian because she owns Julian. Why do I get the feeling I'm the only one who read A Splinter of Hope?

Julian looks good in bullet points. When TPTB choose to write him, he appears to be weak, timid individual, who will go any direction he is pushed. I got the distinct impression if Danai went 'Psych! GET OFF OF MY WORLD" he would've done it.

[Colt Ward]

Danai would name a 'mech Julian because she owns Julian. Why do I get the feeling I'm the only one who read A Splinter of Hope?

Julian looks good in bullet points. When TPTB choose to write him, he appears to be weak, timid individual, who will go any direction he is pushed. I got the distinct impression if Danai went 'Psych! GET OFF OF MY WORLD" he would've done it.

Because that is not the Julian we had through . . . 5-10 novels?  The abrupt character changes we got in both of those novellas were very annoying.  Until Splinter, we did not even have Liao-level pathological hatred of the FedSuns.  Her old comrade leading the Dynasty Guard had not exhibited that behavior either.  The last look we had at Danai IIRC had her being really questioning of her universe when she finds out her 'siblings' big secret.

[Decoy]

Tell you what. Get them to de canonize Splinter of Hope and I'll drop it. The basic outline can occur, but the novel itself needs to be officially decanonized. Call it a bad holovid version of events or something. However, the official version needs to be that is NOT what happened. Otherwise, this is the Julian we have.

[Colt Ward]

Tell you what. Get them to de canonize Splinter of Hope and I'll drop it. The basic outline can occur, but the novel itself needs to be officially decanonized. Call it a bad holovid version of events or something. However, the official version needs to be that is NOT what happened. Otherwise, this is the Julian we have.

Eh it gets written off as POV . . . and Julian's not even the worst MWDA character in that regard- the DA novels from one author has seriously caused problems with one character's continuity.

Besides IIRC most of Julian's time is observation from the POV of Danai and the Falcon descendant.

[Metallgewitter]

Just a question: what happened to Erik Sabndoval-Gröll the current Regent? My last point is FM 3145 and there he was somehow trying to hold the suns together. Did he stay  probably die on New Avalon? Or did he join Julian in his "Goverment-in-Exile"? To me he was one of the more interesting characters (and somehow funny a Sandoval loyal to New Avalon instead of Robinson first).

[Decoy]

Eh it gets written off as POV . . . and Julian's not even the worst MWDA character in that regard- the DA novels from one author has seriously caused problems with one character's continuity.

Besides IIRC most of Julian's time is observation from the POV of Danai and the Falcon descendant.

*shrugs* I can't ignore it, especially the bits that are from Julian's thoughts and POV.

[PsihoKekec]

Just a question: what happened to Erik Sabndoval-Gröll the current Regent? My last point is FM 3145 and there he was somehow trying to hold the suns together. Did he stay  probably die on New Avalon? Or did he join Julian in his "Goverment-in-Exile"? To me he was one of the more interesting characters (and somehow funny a Sandoval loyal to New Avalon instead of Robinson first).

It would make sense to move him and some government functions to Markesan before Kuritan assault, just like the government was moved during Jihad.

[Decoy]

Erik Sandoval was running things from Remagen when the newest Kuritan Uberleet death regiment hit the world. Poor Kestrel Grenadiers. For such an Elite unit, they have such a bad record.

[Metallgewitter]

Whelp sounds as if even one of the longer living DA characters bites the dust. That's too bad. From what I hear about the "new" Julian he might have need Erik to help him

[Decoy]

Oh. Erik made it out, by the skin of his teeth. Should've said that.

[Cannonshop]

Erik Sandoval was running things from Remagen when the newest Kuritan Uberleet death regiment hit the world. Poor Kestrel Grenadiers. For such an Elite unit, they have such a bad record.

No worries, this is just the run-up before Yori loses her damn mind and goes stupid and the next Steiner-Davion superhero shows up to roll things all the way back to 3025 borders through the power of friendship and universal love of Devlin Stone/Clan Wolf/whichever.

[Metallgewitter]

Oh. Erik made it out, by the skin of his teeth. Should've said that.

Good to know.Though it sounds like it wasn't a St Andre situation where the cavalry hits at the right moment but rather a "Kurita stomps everything and he left on the last Dropship" huh?

[Nerroth]

Clan Goliath Scorpion
3067: 6 worlds (all shared)
3075: 10 worlds (3 exclusive, 7 shared)
3085: N/A, expelled after getting caught with their pincer in the genetic cookie jar

As of Operational Turning Points: Hanseatic Crusade, their most recently-attested numbers would be:
3085: 9 worlds (from their initial conquest of Nueva Castile)
3140: 16 worlds (adding 7 new colony systems which had been founded by that date)
3141: 45 worlds (adding 29 conquered worlds of the former Hanseatic League)

Numbers aside, the Scorpions also benefit from not having been affected by the Blackout: the HPG network on their pre-Hanseatic Crusade planets remains intact. Although, as a point of technicality, it hasn't yet been clarified as to whether they would also be able to expand the network to cover the former Hansa planets without incident.

[vaderi]

Danai would name a 'mech Julian because she owns Julian. Why do I get the feeling I'm the only one who read A Splinter of Hope?

Julian looks good in bullet points. When TPTB choose to write him, he appears to be weak, timid individual, who will go any direction he is pushed. I got the distinct impression if Danai went 'Psych! GET OFF OF MY WORLD" he would've done it.

Given that I just finished it about 10 days ago, I've got to ask, which book did *you* read? I certainly didn't get any of the impressions that you are quite insistent exist. Honestly Danai felt like the one who got the short end of the stick in ASoH with regards to characterization. Given our differing experiences, can you point out the places that gave you the feeling that Julian was a weak and timid individual?

[MarauderD]

No worries, this is just the run-up before Yori loses her damn mind and goes stupid and the next Steiner-Davion superhero shows up to roll things all the way back to 3025 borders through the power of friendship and universal love of Devlin Stone/Clan Wolf/whichever.

Whatever it takes.  I'll take author-granted superpowers over occupied New Avalon any day!

[Alexander Knight]

No worries, this is just the run-up before Yori loses her damn mind and goes stupid and the next Steiner-Davion superhero shows up to roll things all the way back to 3025 borders through the power of friendship and universal love of Devlin Stone/Clan Wolf/whichever.

That's a lot of unfounded faith right there, I tell you what.  ;)

[Colt Ward]

No worries, this is just the run-up before Yori loses her damn mind and goes stupid and the next Steiner-Davion superhero shows up to roll things all the way back to 3025 borders through the power of friendship and universal love of Devlin Stone/Clan Wolf/whichever.

Actually, the signs are that Yori is going to let the Warlord have enough rope to hang himself since he managed to overextend the DCMS.  If the Bears ever moved, the Combine would be in for a world of hurt.  DCMS units, particularly the Hikage, fighting the Capellans on Northwind might be all Yori is waiting for . . .

 . . . Besides, the FedSuns have no more Steiner-Davions and the 3050 map did change from the 3025 map- they swapped worlds in 3039.

[Zeruel]

If the Bears ever moved, the Combine would be in for a world of hurt.

the Bears are hibernating again *sigh*, they're not going to do anything unless poked, and the Combine knows it...

[Colt Ward]

the Bears are hibernating again *sigh*, they're not going to do anything unless poked, and the Combine knows it...

Well, you did get to beat on the Horses and Falcons for abandoned Wolf OZ worlds.

Indications are you will get to hammer on the Horses some more too.

[Jellico]

Very slim pickings there. The good ones went to the Horses. Indeed the Horses got a solid industrial boost leading up to 3150.

[Metallgewitter]

Very slim pickings there. The good ones went to the Horses. Indeed the Horses got a solid industrial boost leading up to 3150.

But the Horses would ned to staff the plants which are now empty with their own techs and engineers so I would wager it might take a while until planets like Tamar or Weingarten reach their full production potential again. But hey at least the Horses will have some of the best wines in the IS  ;D

[Colt Ward]

Eh, the Wolves did not evacuate whole planets- they took the cream of the castes, particularly the younger members.  So if you were some 50 year old factory worker . . . odds are you are still living near that factory even if the needed molds, dies, and other tooling got pulled.  IIRC the RecGuides already talk about the Horses getting some of that production going again.

[truetanker]

Um,

AGE does not have an impact here :

Why you ask?

It's not that the young were taken. yes more where taken but they needed experienced young. So that 50 year old with 30+ years making that widget, would be taken and assigned to a batch of 20 year ones as the Supervisor. And the clans do live 100+, they have the tech but to die young is an achievement to pass on their Codex, and possible Remembrance line.

TT

[Metallgewitter]

Eh, the Wolves did not evacuate whole planets- they took the cream of the castes, particularly the younger members.  So if you were some 50 year old factory worker . . . odds are you are still living near that factory even if the needed molds, dies, and other tooling got pulled.  IIRC the RecGuides already talk about the Horses getting some of that production going again.

That might be true. I checked the FM and it seems that the Wolvs left the heavy equipment and the workers behind. they took their best scientists, technicians and probably all of their technical data with them. So the Horses might just hit the power button and the factory runs again (unless the Wolves left some bugs behind). Could the Horses actually produce Mechs that were iconic to the Wolves in the "after-Jihad-era"? The FM 3145 indicates otherwise

[Ruger]

That might be true. I checked the FM and it seems that the Wolvs left the heavy equipment and the workers behind. they took their best scientists, technicians and probably all of their technical data with them. So the Horses might just hit the power button and the factory runs again (unless the Wolves left some bugs behind). Could the Horses actually produce Mechs that were iconic to the Wolves in the "after-Jihad-era"? The FM 3145 indicates otherwise

They are currently making Timber Wolf OmniMechs (and Mad Dog OmniMechs) IIRC.

Ruger

[Colt Ward]

Um,

AGE does not have an impact here :

Why you ask?

It's not that the young were taken. yes more where taken but they needed experienced young. So that 50 year old with 30+ years making that widget, would be taken and assigned to a batch of 20 year ones as the Supervisor. And the clans do live 100+, they have the tech but to die young is an achievement to pass on their Codex, and possible Remembrance line.

TT

Yes, Age does . . . the easiest way to spread acculturation is to bring a breeding population rather than oldsters.  But trumping that is what is in Bonfire of Worlds where they talked about bringing the young cream of the crop among the farmers & techs.