BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst Game Labs Demo Team => Topic started by: Joel47 on 08 August 2018, 18:33:12
-
We've been doing giant games for quite a while, so it's time to try something new. We're switching to a one-on-one league format, which will allow us to get complete games in while also allowing players to bring more than two units.
Not interested in a campaign but want to get a game in? I'll be bringing a few forces you can borrow, or you can make a new force each time just for that battle without worrying about the bookkeeping of a campaign.
Player continuing from the old campaign? Send me your force changes by the day of the game (there's a section in the rules; see the link below).
Scenario: Meeting Engagement
Location: Game Depot, August 25 @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 7100 BV for 4 units (other unit counts have different amounts -- see rules link)
Carried Infantry: Count as units for this battle.
Victory Condition 1 - Destroy one enemy unit (400 SP) Crippled units count as half, damaged units count as one quarter.
Victory Condition 2 - Destroy a second enemy unit (400 SP) Crippled units count as half, damaged units count as one quarter.
Salvage: The first player to two victory conditions is considered to hold the field; alternately, if one player is in sole possession of the field they may claim salvage. Choose one crippled or destroyed enemy unit still on the field; bonus is 40% (immobile)/20% (crippled)/10% (destroyed) of the unit’s purchase price in SP. (Note: Players do not actually capture other player’s units. This is just a simulation for points.)
Force Composition: See the campaign rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11X_BJb9u1OrqrnZn_9MaICt7IdXq1p0Ls7e6FtcwJas/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11X_BJb9u1OrqrnZn_9MaICt7IdXq1p0Ls7e6FtcwJas/edit?usp=sharing)
Force Composition, Short Version: Create a mercenary force according to the rules (or ask the GM for one). Pick some units from that force to bring to the battle (4 units = 7100 BV; the full rules have other options).
Terrain: Each player gets to pick a map sheet (there are some restrictions -- see the rules). Battles will be played on two mapsheets.
-
Good first games! From observation and feedback, I'll be changing a few things; feel free to discuss them (and anything else campaign-related) here.
- Change map placement. I'm thinking: 1. Roll off. 2. Loser places the map they selected in one of three positions -- vertical left, vertical right, horizontal near. 3. Winner places the map they selected in the remaining "slot" in either of the two orientations. 4. Game starts; winner wins round 1 initiative automatically. (We need to remove the overpowered-with-the-right-map home edge selection. This way you it's gone, but you still can't determine more than half of your opponent's home edge.)
- Formal rules for unit withdrawal. My ruling (which I'll only change with good reason) is: Units exiting their home edge count as crippled for victory conditions. Units exiting any other edge count as destroyed for victory conditions, and are out one game (or one game more should they need repairs)
- Base pay. We need something to help out the losing players -- it's a little harsh to make almost nothing if you lost a 2k SP unit.
- Surrender. We need to change it so that the winning player doesn't feel cheated out of potential pay. I'm considering a one-round delay, though the "base pay" change above this may fix it. Suggestions?
- Increasing the "correct miniature" bonus. It's pretty low; I'm thinking of doubling it. Also changing the faction bonus to a flat bonus like the miniature bonus, instead of a percentage.
-
RE Base Pay:
Maybe something where a percentage of the destroyed unit's SP is given back to the player after another game. Kind of like reinforcements are on the way. I do see a potential cause of frustratrion when one of the destroyed units is heavily modified. Maybe allowing the player to repurchase it at a discount later without having to wait for the refit time would help.
Another thing I had mentioned was to award players SP equal to the difference of the screnario BV limit and their force's BV. Just wanted to make sure you didn't forget about that suggestion.
-
I absolutely agree with the thoughts on Base Pay & Changing "Bonuses" to be flat amounts v/s percentages as I mentioned in our earlier rules discussions.
The Faction, Era, Paint, Mini awards won't mean much if they are based on 0 earnings and really performance should have Zero bearing on conforming to those rules/selection criteria.
For Base Pay I'd make that 25-50% of the planned award.
So yesterday's 400+400 would have actually been...... 200Base+300+300 or 400Base+200+200?
I like the map placement changes that we discussed & the new 3 position system.
I did think of 1 alternative option.
Perhaps 1 option should be that the first placer can choose which map they place in the 3 sections v/s just their own map choice?
Then dice off for initiative like normal for round 1? Or give the looser the round 1 initiative?
I noticed that Surrender gives the bonus only if the victor doesn't have all of the current objectives so if you win objectives & they surrender then there is still no bonus SP.
I mention this because that is different from what we talked about yesterday after the game so just looking clarification on it.
-
I don't know about the other 3 games but I found the speed of our new 1v1 game to be much faster.
We got in 8 rounds v/s the old 4-7 & that was with calling the game a solid hour early.
Everyone else was done a full hour ahead of when we were it seemed.
I think this means there was a lot of "melee" going on with a "last man standing" effect.
For what its worth, I think that means that the 4 map option (provided we don't have more than 8 attendees) will get longer games for people since it would give more room for maneuver & I hope we shift to that option.
-
After Action of 4th Game (SW Table)
Force East (GM provided for non-campaign player) AKA: "PPC Palooza" 4 Mechs
Awesome-9Q (3/4)
Marauder-9M2 (4/5)
PhoenixHawk-8CS (3/?)
Kabuto-7B (4/5)
(This force seriously had me worried, minimal ammo, Zombies & Speed, all sorts of range...... If they get inside or take out a spotter I'm screwed)
Force West (Me) "My HQ Unit, Omega Force, customized over the last 2 years for all sorts of C3 & Tag love, but not that much raw firepower over all, & semi fragile w/ XLs & Vehicles"
Rifleman-II-3N-DRefit (CO, 3/4)
Firestarter-O-PPods (3/5)
Ontos-Standard-DRefit (4/5)
Crow-Dragonfly (4/5)
2 Maps = River Valley & Desert Hills.
I won the dice off & placed River Valley near me sideways with L5 hill furthest & large forest closest.
My opponent placed Desert Hills near himself & declared that his home edge.
I won initiative on Turn 1 by default & also got it on Turn's 2 & 8, I don't think I got it at all on Turns 3-7 but maybe 1 in there, IDK.
Turn-1
Everyone moves on at a run except the Crow, I don't think there was any fire on either side, maybe some long shots at the Crow at +5
Turn-2
Ontos gets out past the trees & Crow makes a beeline for the enemy rear area to TAG the Marauder for LRMs that nick the head.
Firestarter splits TAG & Plasma fire between the Kabuto & Pixie.
Return PPC fire was minimal as it was still long range for all but the Kabuto.
Turn-3
Rifleman gets out of the River & takes a ridge to lay down fire on the Kabuto which survives PPC/Cluster shot & split fire from the Ontos.
Firestarter snipes the Awesome w/ Plasma.
PPC return fire gets more accurate but still minimal.
Turn-4
Pixie takes massed fire from Ontos & Rifleman & is still standing. (Dang these speedsters are getting lucky & I'm 0 for umpteen on crit rolls)
Kabuto flanks Ontos to deliver a mobility hits, doh, down to 2/3 speed, and takes out the turret stabalizer, double DOH.
Firestarter tags the Kabuto with a Plasma Rifle to the FACE, oh, that's warm in there now.
Turn-5
Rifleman turns on Awesome & its a battle of 80 tonners w/ Quad 10 Point taps to see who hits harder. Pixie bounces into the Rifleman's rear & opens up the LT w/ a Snubbie.
Ontos lays into Marauder with 2 more head hits knocking out the pilot & sending it to the ground (We forget to record the 4th hit from fall as his wake up roll was made on a 7 instead of 10)
Kabuto behind Ontos for backshots but Firestarter gets point blank with the Kabuto to alpha strike+kick & he survives! Return kick from Kabuto is the only damage FS takes all game.
Crow hides on lost initiative as 2 Heavy/Assault mechs are on the prowl & in range.
Turn-6
Ontos & Rifleman dump fire into the Awesome while Pixie Parks & puts another Snubbie into the LT(R) of the Rifleman.
(Okay this just got dangerous & I screwed up my declarations & fired on the Awesome instead of the Parked Pixie in woods, DOH)
Kabuto gets last move continues to stab at Ontos from behind while leaving some woods in the way of the FS's return fire.
Marauder rolls to wake up on 7 (Should have been 10 in hindsight)
Crow still hides as Awesome moved last.
Turn-7
Rifleman remembers to target the Pixie behind him this time & cores it w/ the last of his 8 Slug rounds (I started w/ 80% ammo loads based on our usual short game times, back to cluster)
Firestarter's fire/kick are wasted as they were also on the Pixie.
Awesome takes indirect fire from the Ontos thanks to a TAG in the back by the Crow & finally cracks that armor open on the LT.
Turn-8
Ontos spins turret around to fire on Kabuto, first LPPC shot finishes off the XL so the 30 SRM's following it are not rolled.
Rifleman & Firestarter hammer the Awesome while return fire has opened up both Arms & CT of the Rifleman in addition to the open LTR.
Rifleman looses Shoulder & an LB10X while Awesome looses entire LT/LA & takes head hits from Snubbie & Cluster. Falls down for more damage.
The Game is called early with about an hour of play time still remaining. Nice to get in more rounds & still finish earlier than usual.
Pixies is CT-Cored & Kabuto lost its XL.
Marauder is wounded but with open sections & pilot hits.
Awesome lost a Torso w/ half its firepower & heatsinks & pilot is out cold.
Ontos & Rifleman both suffered critical hits & are out next game. Rifleman had 3 internals left in the side torso (rear) thanks to that bouncy Phoenix Hawk. Very nice version, new to me.
Firestarter lost leg armor from Kabuto Kick while the Crow was untouched thanks to dodging PPC fire & a lot of hiding.
It took me till turn 7/8 to actually roll an 8+ for crits, hitting those would have speed up the win.
On the other side, the PPC boats took a little too long getting into Medium/Short range & their early fire suffered for that & it could have been much worse off for the Ontos & Rifleman had they taken more concentrated fire.
-
RE Base Pay:
Maybe something where a percentage of the destroyed unit's SP is given back to the player after another game. Kind of like reinforcements are on the way. I do see a potential cause of frustratrion when one of the destroyed units is heavily modified. Maybe allowing the player to repurchase it at a discount later without having to wait for the refit time would help.
I want to see what the economics look like in play before paying for repairs, but I do like the idea of being able to recreate a custom with a reduced refit time. You've done the work once; you did keep notes, right? ;)
As far as reducing destroyed units, having a "the game ends when one player reaches two victory conditions" rule should reduce that. Mercenaries rarely fight to the death -- there's no money in it!
Another thing I had mentioned was to award players SP equal to the difference of the screnario BV limit and their force's BV. Just wanted to make sure you didn't forget about that suggestion.
I had it written down, but wanted to think on it before bringing it up. But since you mention it, 1:1 is certainly too high -- think about the effect of "I bring 200 BV, and immediately retreat" on gameplay. Lots of SP, totally pointless, "why did you even drive to the store" battle. But 10% might be a good balance -- you get a few extra points if you're having trouble getting the BV correct, but it's not economic to try and lowball your force.
For Base Pay I'd make that 25-50% of the planned award.
So yesterday's 400+400 would have actually been...... 200Base+300+300 or 400Base+200+200?
Yeah, 200 base + 300/victory condition sounds about right.
I like the map placement changes that we discussed & the new 3 position system.
I did think of 1 alternative option.
Perhaps 1 option should be that the first placer can choose which map they place in the 3 sections v/s just their own map choice?
Then dice off for initiative like normal for round 1? Or give the looser the round 1 initiative?
How's this for balance:
Player 1 chooses a map from the two.
Player 2 places the remaining map anywhere except horizontal-far (i.e., setting the opponent's entire home edge).
Player 1 places the map they originally chose in either fitting orientation.
Player 1 wins round 1 initiative.
That's even more even than my previous (post-game) thought. I think player 2 is still the "winner," but it further prevents the "I bring a very wet map to split the board/make my artillery unreachable/etc." Speaking of that, I added a few "wet" maps to the banned list in the rules.
I think if I leave off all salvage and just use a "hold the field" victory condition that will be fine.
I noticed that Surrender gives the bonus only if the victor doesn't have all of the current objectives so if you win objectives & they surrender then there is still no bonus SP.
That was to keep the "runaway" payoffs out. But since the (unstated) intent was for games to end in the end-phase of any round in which a player had both victory conditions, getting both would pay better than getting one plus enemy surrender. So if game-end is better spelled out, I can lose that verbiage.
I'll start considering 4-map games once I get a bit more of a baseline for how things are going. Or if a majority asks for it.
-
I had it written down, but wanted to think on it before bringing it up. But since you mention it, 1:1 is certainly too high -- think about the effect of "I bring 200 BV, and immediately retreat" on gameplay. Lots of SP, totally pointless, "why did you even drive to the store" battle. But 10% might be a good balance -- you get a few extra points if you're having trouble getting the BV correct, but it's not economic to try and lowball your force.
I heard you mention something like this yesterday.
I suggest the following.
If you are at least 1 full bracket (300 BV) less than your cap for # of units.
So say you bring 3 mechs (7400 BV allowed) but fit your BV into the 4 mech amount (7100) when you could have brought another unit or more BV, then you get a bonus.
Myself, I'm thinking something like 6/1 or 50 SP for being 300 BV less than allowed amount sounds like a good starting amount.
Call in Clan Bargaining, or call it Merc Thriftiness of using enough to get the job done w/o using up fuel & food deploying too many troops.
I'm unlikely to ever bring that much less unless I just don't have a unit that fits the BV I need & don't have the SP to buy another, but if people want to try fighting w/ less, then more power to them. And it is a decent compensation for those who don't have a complete roster or who just want a challenge of winning with less.
Another example:
I bring an uber clan death machine w/ elite pilot for 6499 BV in a single unit.
But single unit BV is 8K & 6 Unit BV is 6500. So I am 5 "brackets" below & get a bonus of 50x5 = 250 SP for bringing such an out numbered/under BV'd force.
-
How's this for balance:
Player 1 chooses a map from the two.
Player 2 places the remaining map anywhere except horizontal-far (i.e., setting the opponent's entire home edge).
Player 1 places the map they originally chose in either fitting orientation.
Player 1 wins round 1 initiative.
That's even more even than my previous (post-game) thought. I think player 2 is still the "winner," but it further prevents the "I bring a very wet map to split the board/make my artillery unreachable/etc." Speaking of that, I added a few "wet" maps to the banned list in the rules.
So the "winner of the dice off" chooses the first map but places it 2nd & gets initiative.
Meanwhile the loser takes the remaining map & gets to choose the placement first.
I like that since as we discussed home edge was potent but w/ that removed then 1st map placement is potent but now its balanced against choice + initiative.
This feels good to test for next game.
-
I think if I leave off all salvage and just use a "hold the field" victory condition that will be fine.
Personally I like the salvage.
I think most everyone does.
Hold the field is a find 2nd goal for some matches but the fun of salvage aside from bonus is also the up/down nature of it that is reflected in a merc campaign.
Some days you get the Locust, some days get the Atlas, and some days, everything on the map got nuked to oblivion. >:D
-
The problem with salvage is that the winner wants to keep going to destroy more stuff. So if someone surrenders, we need some recompense commensurate with average salvage. I think we have that, but every winner from this weekend wanted more. Removing it removes the complaints. I can leave it in, but then I'll probably be a little less polite when people say, "But I was one round away from killing that Atlas!" 8)
-
Question.
What does ejecting cost/get you right now?
I agree that killing just for salvage is kind of being a D.
I'm thinking if you are in danger of being completely destroyed, then Ejecting costs you more repair time but the unit then isn't lost completely right?
So for example, if my Gunslinger has been stacked on the CT & is in danger of being cored for good & removed from my roster, then I can retreat, & risk being killed, or I can eject right then, and save the mech at the expense of having to repair the destroyed cockpit for 2 games?
So right now we have the following options?
Option-1 - Pull back & take cover for less incoming fire. (Standard Repairs)
Option-2 - Retreat off the home edge giving the enemy "cripple" credit. (Standard Repairs)
Option-3 - Retreat off another edge giving the enemy "kill" credit (Standard + 1 Extra Game of Repairs)
Option-4 - Eject in place (2 Games Repairs for Head Destroyed Unit)
Option-5 - Surrender the game (Standard Repairs & Forfeit 1/2 current earnings)
Do I have that right?
If I'm understanding it correctly then I think that is a solid selection of options.
I would add that if 2 conditions are met by 1 player then the game doesn't "have" to end, but that the other player can call it w/o a "surrender" at any time after that.
That way if its close they can continue to play but if its not then it can be ended early & avoid the "hunt for salvage" issue.
Might be needed for a situation where its 2 pristine mechs v/s 3 shredded mechs & a come back is possible.
-
Those are the options, yes, with the note that options 4 & 5 are only available during the end phase.
I might need to clarify the "soft edge of the world" vs "retreat." Basically, intent -- did you skid off, get pushed off, or are using a "virtual" hex to get a back shot? Then you're not retreating. Are you trying to run? Retreating.
-
Meh, I'd like to think that one is a given there.
If your coming back on the next turn then your not retreating ;)
-
See, "Arguments, heading off ahead of time." Page 78 of the "Guide to Good GMing." ;)
-
The next game will be September 22nd. It will be the same "stand up fight on 2 maps" we did in August, but with rules tweaks as are being discussed here.
That should be enough of a baseline let us start playing around with scenarios come October.
-
Another proposal that came from a discussion with a potential player:
Add to the faction bonus options:
"Themed" forces gain a bonus (amount TBD*). Example themes:
- "No bipeds" -- all units are mechs/protomechs/battle armor with three or more legs**
- "Treadhead" -- all units are vehicles
- "Ammunition is a liability" -- no units carry ammunition (even untracked ammunition such as infantry weapons)
* I'm thinking equivalent to just the base faction bonus, not faction + era. It might stack with faction, but then I'd have to get really strict with what constitutes a "theme."
** This is the one from the aforementioned discussion. I said something like, "A unit of all tripods & quads? I'd want to give a bonus for that."
-
I'm toying with the idea of allowing recovery vehicles to increase salvage amounts if they're taken as part of the force. They wouldn't have to be on the battlefield, but they'd count against the BV total. That would make them a gamble -- do you go in "short" in the hopes of increased profit?
Something along the lines of:
"For each full ton of cargo space, the player holding the field gets 5 SP. The other player earns 1 SP for each full ton. The cargo-carrying unit counts as part of the player's BV total, but it may be left off-board; in that case, it does not count against the player's unit count."
-
So it is better to have a trio of flat bed trucks (30 tons of cargo space, so +150 SP if I win) than a trio of armoured flatbeds (18 tons of cargo, so +90 SP). The first trio is are cheaper as well (6 vs 12 PV). As a general idea it looks cool, but maybe they should be deployed?
-
Hm, I hadn't thought of the issue of multiples. What if I cap it at one? I know that doesn't address your point, but deploying has its own set of problems, starting with initiative sinking and ending with "someone with TAG and LRMs decides to give you a very bad game." What if losing vehicles take some damage proportional to their carrying capacity? That would prevent the "army of flatbeds," as you'd probably lose a few.
Background: The previous version of the campaign had repair vehicles reducing by one game the repair time of one damaged unit. The problem with that became that they were basically an automatic purchase -- there was no reason not to have one (other than a small outlay in Support Points). When I was first doing the rewrite I addressed that with a maximum unit count, but anything restrictive enough to matter would have been too restrictive. So I deleted them entirely. I'd like to bring them back (along with MASH vehicles) if I can come up with a way where it's still a decision, not an automatic selection.
-
I like the idea from a "fluffy" standpoint. Every Mercenary unit, or any unit in general, should have some sort of logistics train. From a mechanics standpoint I'm not sure how you integrate non - combat vehicles outside of some sort of mission goal.
I think a MASH truck could be done more easily. It counts towards your BV, but not your unit count, isn't on the board and let's you spend a number of SP to heal wounds or "replace" lost infantrymen after the battle. Repair trucks could be done in a similar fashion. Trade SP for faster repairs. Maybe have it cost SP rather than BV to bring them and you can heal an extra wound/trooper or reduce repair time by one game.
Boosting salvage after a battle is trickier because there's no danger of they're not in the table and if they're on the table it's basically a cheap movement sink that hides in the back. Either way they're an auto take with no real downside or tradeoff. A mission parameter where you have to defend the truck, or have it at a certain location by the end of the game might work.
-
So it is better to have a trio of flat bed trucks (30 tons of cargo space, so +150 SP if I win) than a trio of armoured flatbeds (18 tons of cargo, so +90 SP). The first trio is are cheaper as well (6 vs 12 PV). As a general idea it looks cool, but maybe they should be deployed?
FYI.
Flat Bed Truck has 6 tons of Cargo, not 10.
Flat Bed Truck (Armor) has 4 Tons of Cargo, not 6.
-
I'm toying with the idea of allowing recovery vehicles to increase salvage amounts if they're taken as part of the force. They wouldn't have to be on the battlefield, but they'd count against the BV total. That would make them a gamble -- do you go in "short" in the hopes of increased profit?
Something along the lines of:
"For each full ton of cargo space, the player holding the field gets 5 SP. The other player earns 1 SP for each full ton. The cargo-carrying unit counts as part of the player's BV total, but it may be left off-board; in that case, it does not count against the player's unit count."
Hm, I hadn't thought of the issue of multiples. What if I cap it at one? I know that doesn't address your point, but deploying has its own set of problems, starting with initiative sinking and ending with "someone with TAG and LRMs decides to give you a very bad game." What if losing vehicles take some damage proportional to their carrying capacity? That would prevent the "army of flatbeds," as you'd probably lose a few.
Background: The previous version of the campaign had repair vehicles reducing by one game the repair time of one damaged unit. The problem with that became that they were basically an automatic purchase -- there was no reason not to have one (other than a small outlay in Support Points). When I was first doing the rewrite I addressed that with a maximum unit count, but anything restrictive enough to matter would have been too restrictive. So I deleted them entirely. I'd like to bring them back (along with MASH vehicles) if I can come up with a way where it's still a decision, not an automatic selection.
Since you ruined(banned) the fun of my "Hover Assault" beach landing force.
This is how I will ruin(break) this idea. :)
Hazard Materials Recovery Vehicle (Salvage Bed), 600 BV for 500 SP, yes please.
Loss of 10% BV for gain of 50% SP ....... Yes Please >:D
I think the "short BV by bracket" idea for the small bonus we discussed above doesn't have the risk factor involved in bringing the stats of the recovery vehicle chosen into the equation & the imbalances that that would create.
Not a huge fan of the "theme" idea, but, if you do go with that, then let me know, I have a dream about a completely customized Quads/Vtol force to take on a hills map that will be impervious to Arm/Leg hits & never moves but uses C3 & Clan ERLL's so that it doesn't have to move.
I'm sure I can substitute Tarantulas for the Vtol's to spot with, it moves 8/12/8 so should be fine. :D
Yes, I know, I'm the reason we can't have nice things. ;)
-
This is how I will ruin(break) this idea. :)
Hazard Materials Recovery Vehicle (Salvage Bed), 600 BV for 500 SP, yes please.
Loss of 10% BV for gain of 50% SP ....... Yes Please >:D
I thought I said "no trailers." Must have been via PM. Try adding "must be able to move under its own power." And, to be perfectly clear, "Max one cargo vehicle; trailers and other add-ons count as separate vehicles." Since trailers are the heavy-haulers, that should keep the ratio in check. You can bring a trailer if you want, but it'll just sit there.
...And now I'm picturing a mech pulling a giant little red wagon loaded with salvage.
I think the "short BV by bracket" idea for the small bonus we discussed above doesn't have the risk factor involved in bringing the stats of the recovery vehicle chosen into the equation & the imbalances that that would create.
Right, that one is pretty much a lock on being added, as it also mitigates the problems some have with getting their mission forces right up to the BV cap.
Yes, I know, I'm the reason we can't have nice things. ;)
Indeed. :P
-
Will any of these be applicable to September's game?
-
That's what we're discussing.
Map placement changes: Definitely something; if I hear no objections, my original proposal is in.
Formal rules for individual unit withdrawal: Definitely in, because it doesn't change anything other than being explicit.
Base pay: Still under discussion, but likely in some form.
Surrender changes: Still under discussion.
Change in "correction miniature" and faction bonuses: Definite. Mini bonus changed to 20/mini, with a cap of 80. All painted the same is another +80. Faction bonus changed to +40/+20 instead of percentage. (Amount for faction bonus still under discussion, but that feels right.)
Understrength bonus: Definitely. 10% of unused BV (round down). (Hellraiser's stepped system is cool, but it sounds like too much work.)
Salvage vs "Hold the field": Still under discussion.
"Funky force theme" bonus: Still under discussion.
Salvage bonus for cargo carriers: Still under discussion, unlikely (but interesting from a fluff perspective).
MASH bonus for infantry recovery: Proposed above, not yet fleshed out.
I've updated the rules with the mini/faction/understrength changes. Also added the map placement changes, since that's unlikely to change.
-
Understrength bonus: Definitely. 10% of unused BV (round down). (Hellraiser's stepped system is cool, but it sounds like too much work.)
I would think 10% of Unused BV sounds like too much work.
Because it means if you come in 20 BV short now your adding 2 SP to the earned total.
That just sounds like a lot of Record keeping adjustments for tiny little SP amounts.
With my suggestion you don't get any bonus SP till you are at least 300 SP short.
It just seems odd to give out "pennies" because the 2 "budgets" are separated by a nickle/dime etc etc.
-
But the math is easier, and all players have to do is put it on the game report sheet. (BTW, I'm drawing up a game report sheet -- much like the purchases form, having standardized data makes my life easier.)
-
Thanks for the fun games today Joel!
It seemed like there were a few good battles going on around the tables.
Table SW
2 Non-Campaign Players v/s Each other.
Table NW
GM Joel v/s Non-Campaign Player
Table SE
Lóng zài wù zhōng w/s "Team JJ"
Table NE
Kartr's Kavaliers v/s League of Indiscriminate Justice
Mission: Destroy the Enemy (Don't get destroyed)
SP Awards
Base Pay: +200
Kill 1 Enemy: +300
Kill 50% Enemies: +300
Painted Correct Mini: +20 Each (Max 80)
Force Matching Scheme: +80 SP
Force Faction Completeness: +40 SP
Force Era Single: +20 SP
BV Below Limit: +10% of BV Shortage
-
Brief rundown on the NE Table with the Kavaliers v/s League battle.
Maps: 2 Maps with long edges towards players
Large Lakes was the Kavaliers home edge.
Mountain River was the League home edge.
Kavaliers force: BV 90+ below 6800 BV Limit for 5 Units. (Mechs & Fulcrum in 3 man C3 Network)
Battlemaster-M3 (4/5)
Wolverine-9W2(r) (3/4) (A-Class Customization swapping 2xLPPC for 1x SNPPC
Fulcrum-III (4/5)
Maxim (BA Field Refit) (4/5)
Inner Sphere BA Squad (4) - Small Lasers (4/5)
League force: BV 160+ below 7100 BV Limit for 4 Units.
Flashman-8K (3/5) (C-Class Customization, Heavy Ferro + Plasma Rifles/ERSLs)
Jagermech-7F (4/5)
Wolverine-7M (4/5)
Hermes-4S (4/5)
Initiative:
Turns 1,2,9 Went to the Kavaliers
Turns 3,4 Went to the League
Turns 5-8 I don't recall, but mostly flip flopped a bunch.
With 3 Fast Units, designed to take advantage of the water, a C3 Network w/ better range weapons, & an edge in initiative sinks for the Kavaliers v/s Raw Firepower & BV with the League this looked to make for an interesting fight. And it very much was with both sides being unsure if they were winning or loosing at any given point for most of the fight.
Quick turn by turn from memory.
Round-1 - Move on, no fire that I recall
Round-2 - The Fulcrum & Hermes are in range after the Hermes crosses the river into woods & connects 1/3 on MPLs v/s the Fulcrum while taking fire to the Right Arm. Maxim drops off the BA just West of the Mountain
Round-3 - Fire from everyone, most of it at range. Maxim crests hill & survives massed fire from the entire League Lance but is immobilized.
The ECCM from Kavalier's Wolverine & Fulcrum are completely countering the ECM from League Jager & Hermes. C3 Fire begins landing accurately.
Round-4 - The League now splits fire between both Hovers & the BA. Maxim still alive. Hermes & Jager take fire.
Round-5 - Fulcrum takes motive for 1/2 MP. Hermes looses RA. Maxim (Pillbox) is still alive & shooting SRM6 each turn.
Round-6 - Maxim finally dies from a Hermes Kick that followed fire from Hermes/Wolverine, Flashman/Jager open up on the KK-Wolverine which takes Leg TAC to lower actuator.
Victory Condition-1 achieved for League. (4 Damaged) Jager looses 1 RAC.
Round-7 - Kavaliers focus fire on the untouched Flashman to ensure damage to all League units for Victory Condition-1.
Kav's Wolverine Jumps & Falls over in trees but is unhittable while prone.
Battle Armor squad destroyed. Victory Condition-2 achieved for League. (2 Destroyed, 3 Damaged) Hermes ran away to avoid fire at exposed XL. Jager LT XL & Ammo exposed.
Round-8 - Fulcrum escapes off home edge. Wolverine Stands up & Sprints towards the home edge, takes fire & falls over again. Hermes runs back towards fight.
Round-9 - Wolverine & Battlemaster both escape off home edge - No fire, Game Over.
This fight was fun & swingy as each side would take or give a critical point of damage that would expose or degrade something every turn.
In the end, both teams achieved condition-1 by damaging every opponent unit. (.25 * 4 = 1 "Unit")
The League picked up condition-2 after taking out the Maxim & BA (1*2+.25*3 = 2.75 "Units")
Had the hits landed on the exposed XL's of the Jager/Hermes the League would have been down 50%, meanwhile the Kavaliers were dealing with building damage on the Wolverine & Fulcrum that might have gotten worse if the game went on longer.
Death Toll (Repairs Needed)
League:
Flashman & Wolverine had armor damage but both available for next game.
Jagermech out 1 Game (October?) & available in November?
Hermes out 2 games (Oct/Nov) & Available in December.
Kavaliers
Battlemaster & Fulcrum had armor/motive damage but both available next game.
Wolverine & IS BA-Small Laser out for 2 games & Available in December
Maxim is destroyed & removed from roster.
SP Awards
Base Pay: +200
Kill 1 Enemy: +300
Kill 50% Enemies: +300
Painted Correct Mini: +20 Each (Max 80)
Force Matching Scheme: +80 SP
Force Faction Completeness: +40 SP
Force Era Single: +20 SP
BV Below Limit: +10% of BV Shortage
Kavaliers = 200+300+0+80+0+40+?+9 = 629 SP (Unsure about Era bonus here, possible +20 more due?)
League = 200+300+300+40+0+0+0+16 = 856 SP
-
That game was a lot of fun and far closer than I was expecting given the (slight) BV imbalance and the fact that I was running vehicles vs an all 'Mech force. It also felt far more "BattleTech" like given that my entire force was from my mercenary unit and once we started loosing too much combat effectiveness we pulled back rather than fight to the last man. Helluva lot of fun!
A couple of thoughts:
1. I really like the unified force, painted and faction bonuses (I don't have era bonus) because it turned the slight loss (560 SP for a new Maxim and Crew vs 509 SP gained) into a slight profit (I earned 629 SP, or 69 SP profit after I replace my transport). That said, I am a little concerned that it might become too profitable. If I'd had the unified force paint I'd have gained another 80 SP for 200 SP from bonuses. That doubles my base pay just for showing up. I get the "fluff" reason for it, I like the extra SP, I just think an eye should be kept on it.
2. Movement Sinks and infantry. Right now Joel has the sliding scale for BV vs #Units in order to prevent people from bringing a bunch of cheap infantry to act as movement sinks. Talking about it with him and Hellraiser last night after the game got me thinking. What if the restriction was for units that have 3MP or less and no transport/not carried? My thought is that slow moving units without serious long range firepower cannot really contribute to the fight, but fast infantry like VTOL or Hover, or infantry in a transport can either spot (the former) or be offloaded to create forward firebases (the latter) and contribute to the fight. Slow infantry in transports also have the disadvantage that they cannot easily retreat if the battle goes against them and would be more likely to be forced to surrender or be sacrificed to cover their 'Mech allies.
-
1. At one point I felt the bonuses were too small actually, at least when compared to the choice limitation, but now I'm liking them combined with the base pay.
It means that even if you have a HORRID day with dice or just get out maneuvered you can still pull off some decent SP to help compensate for destruction or un-achieved goals.
The Max bonus is 220 (80+80+40+20) which is just over 25% of the max payout in base/goals. So its significant w/o being overpowered.
2. This kind of goes back to how we had it before, which was "Carried Infantry Doesn't Count".
I think his goal was to avoid making it so that bringing a bunch of mobile infantry doesn't give you automatic initiative sinks (regardless of if they are contributing).
For example.
My Taranis are Sllooww at 1MP, but even after an Omni drops them off to contribute to the fight but are STILL a sink because there is little "tactical" movement that I can do with them.
They are still almost always going to move first & allow my other more potent units to move later.
With his current suggestion of having some games that allow a +2 Units for "Free from Force Size Count" we would still get boosted infantry #'s w/o it making every other game a free sink for having an Omni in your force. Basically its keeping the Omni's & MagClamp BA in check against force size bloat.
-
I get that what you're saying about them still being a movement sink once they're dropped off, but I don't know if I entirely agree. You're still paying for them BV wise, you still need something that can carry them, they're actually contributing to the battle rather than just sitting by the edge of the map and not doing anything. Infantry are always going to be something of a Movement Sink given the way the rules work, this lets people actually bring infantry more frequently which allows for more "capture objective" type missions that need infantry to take and hold locations.
Also I may have "Dennis'd" the upgrade rules >:D
-
Glad people had fun!
Rules change discussion:
Map placement changes: I think they worked well. I think player 2 has a slight advantage, but player 1 might have an advantage for certain force mixes.
Formal rules for individual unit withdrawal: People who had questions yesterday please read the rules and see if I was clear in spelling it out, or if I need to add more text.
Base pay: Worked well.
Surrender changes: I think a reminder is necessary that once your opponent has completed all their objectives you can retire from the field with no penalty.
Change in "correction miniature" and faction bonuses: I like it. I don't think it's too much, because if you own a mini and that unit gets destroyed in game, it helps buy a new one.
Understrength bonus: Easy enough with the AAR worksheet.
Salvage vs "Hold the field": Still under discussion. I like the simplicity of objectives instead of salvage, and prefer not having the "hard feelings" of having your salvage points escape off the edge.
"Funky force theme" bonus: Too much thought.
Salvage bonus for cargo carriers: Tabled unless someone has a good idea.
MASH bonus for infantry recovery: Proposed above, not yet fleshed out.
Increased repair times for Clan/Mixed tech units: In a discussion today with Kartr_Kana about upgrades, we realized that there were many cases where converting a unit to mixed-tech was actually advantageous as the smaller (crit-space-wise) Clan equipment meant an E-grade refit could be shifted to a D-grade for the same time in the bay and less SP (as well as replacing all the energy weapons with better ones during the process). So I'm doing something, and that something is probably "all Clan/Mixed tech units have one game added to their repair time for damage." I might allow removing that penalty for a separate E-grade refit ("improve unit quality level").
-
Increased repair times for Clan/Mixed tech units: In a discussion today with Kartr_Kana about upgrades, we realized that there were many cases where converting a unit to mixed-tech was actually advantageous as the smaller (crit-space-wise) Clan equipment meant an E-grade refit could be shifted to a D-grade for the same time in the bay and less SP (as well as replacing all the energy weapons with better ones during the process). So I'm doing something, and that something is probably "all Clan/Mixed tech units have one game added to their repair time for damage." I might allow removing that penalty for a separate E-grade refit ("improve unit quality level").
This one is going to have to be explained to me because E-Grade refits affect very little in the game, (CASE, TSM, & Quality Refurbishments), so I feel like there is some confusion based on my emails w/ Kartr.
Near as I can see what he wants to do is only Class-C & doing Class-C via Clan Tech would Double the SP Cost & (effectively) the # of Games Missed.
As far as the Beam weapons being "free", its still double the SP & the MASSIVE increase in BV that means that unit is no longer in a 5 unit force as you scrap a Medium Mech (etc) to pay for the Assault going up 50% in BV costs.
Based on what he wants to do, E-Grade should never even be in the equation.
-
Class E Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change the type of myomer installed, install CASE, and/or increase the unit’s Quality Rating one level. It also allows moving internal structure slots around without changing the type of structure.
In this case it was an internal structure slot moving. However, re-reading his particular case, it doesn't apply as he wanted to move armor slots. That's a D. And if it had been Endo-steel, it would have been an F (changing structure type). So we can drop the increased repair times for now (even though it does feel "right" given the fluff).
-
In this case it was an internal structure slot moving. However, re-reading his particular case, it doesn't apply as he wanted to move armor slots. That's a D. And if it had been Endo-steel, it would have been an F (changing structure type). So we can drop the increased repair times for now (even though it does feel "right" given the fluff).
Okay, that makes sense if it was IS v/s Armor.
Also, to clarify.
1. Armor = C, not D.
2. Per your Rules, Clan Tech already does add an Extra game. As does any changing of tech/rules level.
Changing tech levels from Intro to Standard, from Standard to Advanced/Experimental, and from Inner Sphere to Clan (or Hybrid) adds one game to the refit time.
I agree with this one & wasn't arguing against it, just trying to clarify the confusion.
3. Also, the moving of IS/TSM/Armor "slots" is actually 1 grade easier than full on replacement per a question I asked 7 years ago & got answer from TPTB.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10776.0
-
On a different rules note, I think I found some clarification to the "salvage v/s destroyed" issue that came up last weekend.
So the rules 3.4.3 say
Any unit not Truly Destroyed (SO p175) can be Salvaged
Salvage value of a destroyed unit is 25% of purchase price
Salvage value of an immobilized/abandoned unit is 50% of purchase price if crippled,
75% if not (e.g., pilot killed without head destruction, “Crew Killed” vehicle critical).
Rules 4.1.1 say
Salvage bonus (if field held):
Choose one crippled or destroyed enemy unit still on the field;
bonus is 40% (immobile)/
20% (crippled)/
10% (destroyed) of the unit’s purchase price in SP.
I think I had 4.1.1 in my head while J.S. was reading 3.4.3 on his phone.
I am thinking the "Destroyed" in 4.1.1 is "Mission Destroyed", as is 3 engine hits.
Not Truly Destroyed (CT-Cored)
And Not Completely Destroyed (Death by Area Effect Weapons or Un-CASE'd Ammo Explosion)
At one point I know a 10% for Truly Destroyed was in there when Destroyed was 25%, but I don't see it in either of the versions I'm reading now so maybe there is another version between 3.4.3 & 4.1.1.
Am I reading it right that the 10% in 4.1.1 is just "Mission Destroyed" & you actually get 0% for Truly & Completely Destroyed?
-
Yes, if the salvage bonus is in play. It wasn't for Saturday's game, and I'm still torn on it. On the one hand, it can be fun. On the other, you have longer battles (having to track shots going into units already mission-killed to check for CT destruction) and the frustration caused by surrender before significant salvage is generated.
-
Ok, glad we have clarity on that one.
Hmm, I feel your give up 1/2 of awarded SP for Surrender is more than fair to compensate for them not generating salvage.
The CT issue shouldn't be too huge since its probably not a ton of extra rolls.
Maybe the one clarification that might be needed is if the Surrender bonus is just for Victory Conditions or does that include Base Pay as well.
As long as Base Pay is included in that then I would say the trade off for "Surrender" v/s "Salvage" for any given game is probably good enough.
I'd keep Salvage now at your lesser amounts & know that if they retreat early then at least some SP is still rewarded.
-
Hmm, I feel your give up 1/2 of awarded SP for Surrender is more than fair to compensate for them not generating salvage.
But remember, they can surrender without that penalty if their opponent has achieved all available victory conditions. Now with "destroy X enemy units" as conditions there will probably be something to salvage, but that's not always going to be the case.
-
But remember, they can surrender without that penalty if their opponent has achieved all available victory conditions. Now with "destroy X enemy units" as conditions there will probably be something to salvage, but that's not always going to be the case.
True, but if you've already got Base & 2 Conditions locked up then your doing OK for SP earned so missing out on salvage sometimes isn't a huge issue.
Salvage shouldn't be a guarantee. It should depend on Mission, Tactics, & Dice Luck. Sometimes they line up, sometimes they don't.
I forgot there was no salvage last game, but, normally taking out the Hover that I did for a full Kill isn't what you want to do since its free SP, but the dang thing wasn't getting abandoned & was smack dab in the middle of my forces tossing SRMs at things w/ exposed XL's & Ammo.
I was thinking I'd loose out on SP for it but it was better than letting it stay alive & take out my 70 ton gunboat mech.
Not quite the same as retreating but I still made a choice that would have cost me SP normally.
And it was solid Salvage being only Immobile & L2 Tech. (500 * .40 = 200)
-
So.... It turns out all the GD Standard models I thought I had are GD Scout. On the battlefield is there any practical reason to run a large number of GD Scouts or should I try and trade them for GD Standards?
-
Do you mean the Miniatures?
I didn't even realize they had 2 different models if that is the case.
There has only ever been 1 mini of GDL BA that I recall.
Or do you mean in the campaign you have them on your roster?
I'd just use them as whatever you want.
As for using large #'s of them on the game board.
If your running a mission that needs Active Probes then they are a great way to blanket an area in probes.
But that is about it.
-
Yeah the minis, IWM currently has two GD minis the Standard which looks like the GD Standard and the GD Legion which looks like the Scout. The weird thing is that GD Scout doesn't have integrated weapons but the mini and the artwork show an integrated weapon on the right arm.
Can they carry infantry weapons in armored gloves? So that they have some firepower? Otherwise Probes and spotting for indirect fire are the only things I can see using them for. They seem really good in a story driven sense, because they could enter facilities or ships and use their armored gloves to activate weapons and other tech, but that has zero table top application.
-
Yeah, I find it hard to believe they made the "Scout" armor 20 years ago & gave it a modular weapon mount when the scout uses gloved hands & rifles.
That new GDL "Standard" is clearly the Standard but I don't see that as making the other one the scout when it doesn't look right to me.
-
It gets weirder, GD Standard was added to IWM in May 2008 and GD Legion was added in February 2016... I'll be running Legion as Standard for a while, but eventually I'll get some proper Standard and run Legion for Scout and Infiltrator (assuming Infiltrator doesn't get its own model in the mean time). If I take a hit on accurate models, I'll take the hit, but I'll probably use IS Standard most of the time to avoid that.
-
The next game will be Nov 17th. Sorry for the long gap between games; had to line up my open weekends with Game Depot's. Scenario soon.
Tired of waiting? Go play in the weekly game at Imperial Outpost! :)
-
The next game will be Nov 17th. Sorry for the long gap between games; had to line up my open weekends with Game Depot's. Scenario soon.
Tired of waiting? Go play in the weekly game at Imperial Outpost! :)
But but.... that's like.......on the west side! :'(
I can't possibly be expected to drive that far. ;)
-
League Campaign Game
Scenario: Information is Ammunition
Location: Game Depot, November 17 @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 7100 BV for 4 units (other unit counts have different amounts -- see rules link)
Carried Infantry: Count for BV, but do not count against the unit count until they exceed the number of non-infantry units..
Victory Condition 0 - Start the battle (200 SP) This is forfeited if you damage a building from the outside.
Victory Condition 1 - Occupy a building for 3 consecutive rounds (200 SP) You can only score a building once -- sitting in it for 6 rounds doesn't score any more points, nor does occupying after your opponent has looted it. If more than one infantry is an occupier, they can all attempt VC2 (but only score VC2 once per building).
Victory Condition 2 - Exit the map with an infantry unit that scored VC1 (200 SP) Halved for exiting an edge other than your home edge. This does not count as fleeing the map. Can only be scored once per building, even if you had two stands of infantry inside for VC1.
Victory Condition 3 - Destroy one enemy unit (100 SP) Crippled units count as half, damaged units count as one quarter.
Victory Condition 4 - Destroy half the enemy units (200 SP) Crippled units count as half, damaged units count as one quarter. "Half" is by number, not by BV or tonnage. Carried infantry that didn't count against your opponent's unit count also doesn't count when determining how many "half" is, but it still counts for destroyed units.
Special Terrain & Setup Rules:
- The only allowed maps are Battletech, Open Terrain 1 & 2, CityTech, & City Ruins.
- After the maps are placed, each player puts a building anywhere on the enemy map sheet, Player 1 first.
- After the players have placed their buildings, the GM will place a 3rd building.
- All buildings are 1-hex level one Heavy buildings.
- Not all units have to deploy at the start of the game. Players may wait until combat units have made the battlefield a safer place for their squishy friends.
Not interested in a campaign but want to get a game in? I'll be bringing a few forces you can borrow, or you can make a new force each time just for that battle without worrying about the bookkeeping of a campaign.
-
Sounds like a lot of swarms coming out to play. >:D
-
I don't like that >:D Hellraiser. What are you up too?
-
Story Post
Loyalty, Marik-Stewart Commonwealth, 3126
Colonel Kartr maneuvered his Wolverine down out of the makeshift 'Mechbay of the Kavaliers' DropShip, the Mule-class "This Isn't My Job," and towards the garrison hangars across the tarmac. The rest of the his mixed company would be coming off of the DropShip during the next couple of hours, but for now it was just him, O'Corgley in his BattleMaster and Corporals Maeland and Konstantine in their Fulcrum IIIs as well as a platoon of battle armor sweeping the area with improved sensors.
He clicked his mic on, "Network check." Looking at a secondary screen Kartr confirmed that his C3 module was running and registering it's connection to the master computer in O'Corgley's machine. The two tank commanders quickly confirmed their connections were up as well. "We're in the green boss" O'Corgley confirmed.
"Very good. Konstantine, Maeland establish and start patrolling a perimeter, 'Corgie you're their overwatch. Coordinate with Lt. Sanderson and his 'Crunchies.'"
"WILCO. Where are you going boss?" O'Corgley's response made Kartr smile, the MechWarrior was a fellow Taurian from the Calderon Protectorate and the national disregard for rank was refreshing.
"The advanced party has a berth waiting for me in the hangar and our new employer is there watching the evolution. So look smart and pass the word, while I do the hard work." With that Kartr clicked off. This was going to be a good gig, working security for Kallon Industries grounside plant. The pay was excellent, they had an option in the contract that allowed them to take missions from the planetary government as long as the plant wasn't threatened. If everything went well he'd be able to afford another dropship, a military one this time, one of the new Seleucus-class vessels Kallon was manufacturing at the Nadir jump point. A good gig indeed, time to meet the client and start earning that paycheck!
Summary:
Due to the frequent raids between former FWL states during the first half of the 3120s, Kallon Weapon Industries decided to hire mercenaries to bolster their corporate security forces. In 3126 Kartr's Kavaliers signed a defense contract with Kallon Weapon Industries to defend the companies production plants on Loyalty in the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth.
Kallon's planetary facilities are focused mostly on producing components for the Partisan tank and Partisan AA vehicle. Given the low priority they allowed Kartr's Kavaliers to sign a subsidiary contract with the planetary militia to provide support.
-
I don't like that >:D Hellraiser. What are you up too?
Don't look at me, I'm not the one w/ 7 squads of BA in his TO&E.
Even with your Wolverine & 1 Squad missing the next 2 games it looks like the remaining 6 Squads are more than enough to keep things interesting this month.
Is that 3 Maxims I see on your roster? Or is one of those the destroyed one & its only 2 remaining? Either way that is plenty of APC mobility.
PS. I think you over paid for the Drillson, if that is just the L1 tech 3026 variant then it should only be 250 SP.
PPS. Your BattleMaster refit should only take 1 Game at Class-C, unless you went Clan Tech with the upgrade, which based on the SP cost you did not.
-
It's two Maxims and a Maxim Mk II. The C3s replaced the field refit you destroyed in the last game. I do think you're right about the Drillson and BattleMaster though.
-
Oh and it's 9 squads... 3 IS Standard, 3 Gray Death, 2 Marauder BA and 1 GD Scout 😝
-
Scenario edited - VC 0 is now forfeit if you damage a building from the outside. (The intent was to prevent deliberate destruction of buildings to keep the enemy from scoring points without penalizing infantry for engaging in combat within the structure.)
-
Scenario edited - VC 0 is now forfeit if you damage a building from the outside. (The intent was to prevent deliberate destruction of buildings to keep the enemy from scoring points without penalizing infantry for engaging in combat within the structure.)
How is this changed exactly?
So basically before it was possible to damage/destroy the building by hammering it with Infantry Weapons while Outside it?
That is how I'm reading it so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm trying to think of why you would want to destroy the building before you get your points out of it. As points are bigger per building than the 0-Award
I guess if you somehow had some UBER luck w/ your own units v/s the enemies units & were able to get into every building on the map by Turn-1/2 & then stop the enemy from getting in there for at least 1-2 turns... and then when you leave on the 4th round of being in there, you drop the building behind you & deny the enemy all 600+ points, then it might be worth it.
But 1-Its kinda Richard-ish, and 2-That is some serious luck to pull that off more than once, and 3-Its totally against the fluff of the mission.
-
Yeah, it's a corner case, but just in case some "Richard," as you put it, with a fast APC and some SRM infantry can't nuke a building out of spite.
-
Okay, just wanted to make sure I was understanding what you were seeing.
I think maybe a Maxim-I with 4 Platoons of Foot SRM Infantry might have been able to drop a HEAVY building in 2 rounds of fire.
Maybe 3 Squads of Grenadiers in the same Maxim-I could also pull it off.
90 Point Heavy Buildings don't go down easy compared to our normal Medium/Light selection of buildings chosen for "destroy" missions.
I'd almost like to see someone try it & stand outside in clear terrain with infantry........ for my Plasma canons & Flamers to BBQ >:D
/ticks off fingers counting the # of D6 damage that can be accrued in open terrain. ;)
-
To clarify, shooting at the building is what we are trying to stop with that ruling right?
For example, A running mech that skids on all the concrete on these maps & does damage that way doesn't forfeit the VC right?
Or Dislocation from Push/DFA, or Side-slipping hover/vtol, etc etc etc, isn't an issue.
Just clarifying what you mean by damage, AKA, its shooting at it, or more specifically causing it collapse/be destroyed & deny someone else VC that you're discouraging.
And finally, since your attempting to stop "Richard-ness". Can you rule that placing the building underwater would also be illegal since that isn't spelled out.
But oh the joy of having to attack it Scuba infantry ;)
-
While the basic purpose of that rule is to prevent winning via building destruction, it's also to avoid other "alternative" means of building entry. For instance, one could drive an APC into the building to dump infantry directly into cover. If I say "deliberate" I can see someone setting up an "accidental" skid to have the same effect; therefore, any damage forfeits the VC. If you push an enemy into it, it's your fault; if you skid into it, you should have driven more carefully.
And yes, I'll mention at game time that the building must be placed in a clear or paved hex. No rubble, trees, or water. (But it need not be on level 0.) But now I want to do a "Dropship salvage" mission where the dropship crashed into deep water. >:D
-
Ok, I've changed my mind.
I hear by formally disagree with this rule now.
Preserving the building I can get behind, but removing perfectly valid "tactical" entry methods I can't. You always tell us you want the best TACTICS to win.
The SWAT team doesn't preserve your door jam when they raid your house...........They shoot the hinges out or blow it with a breaching charge.
If I'm willing to risk the 13+ PSR & take damage to my vehicle then I should be able to ram my APC through the front class window dang it. ::)
It does occur to me that I likely would never get back out of the building after being immobilized as shards of class & window frame pierces my hoverskirt, xp, but I at least want the option of being stupid.
This is America. ;D I wanna get my redneck on. :D
I have it all planned out.......... the sounds of a swamp boat fan, the hoots & howls of laughter coming from Marauder BA (Possibly a few screams of fear), as my Savannah Master once again approaches at 200+ KPH & delivers on time better than the Domino's driver.
Round 1, in the building, now, how do we get out? We don't know..... we leave that for the Generals to figure out.
-
Note to self.
If you arrive at Game Depot & there are a bunch of strangers at your BattleTech table....
It's not that they are at your BattleTech table, it's that you are a week early.
Note to self.
This is the 2nd time in a decade you have shown up on the wrong day.
Perhaps senility is setting in.
Note to self.
You wouldn't be there on the wrong day if we had weekly games.
Yes yes, its Joel's fault for not having weekly games.... If we had weekly games you'd always arrive on the right day.
Note to self.
Commence plan to bribe Joel's family to let him have weekly games.
Teenagers are greedy & in need of money. They would probably quit soccer for $20.
Note to self.
You are also greedy & in need of money. Form a new plan. Learn how to read.
Sigh.... I really did swear we were playing on my 4-day weekend. :-[ :-[
Ah well, I guess I'll have to actually do my homework before its due. DOH!
-
My daughter hasn't played soccer for several years now. Other stuff, though... Especially at this time of year. Not counting my daughter's stuff, I have four concerts in eight days at the start of December. (And I know this because I USE MY CALENDAR. ;) )
-
Cal...en....dar.... ?
What is this word?
No really, I did use it, I swear when I checked it a month ago that I was glad it was on a 4 day weekend. And then never rechecked the game day message. :-[
Which is why I think senility is setting in. :))
-
Thanks again Joel for the games yesterday.
6 players came out to play, a bit lower than normal which lead to 3 games all with fairly similar results.
In each game it sounded like 1 of the players got into the buildings faster or with more infantry, OR, had a serious edge in firepower that lead to some heavily damaged mechs early. Which lead to the damaged or slower force taking the points they had & pulling out early so we finished up fairly quickly.
At my table the "Lóng zài wù zhōng" of the Capellan Confederation faced off against the "The League of Indiscriminate Justice" of Terran Corridor Mixed Heritage.
The CC Mercs arrived with about an Augmented Lance of Mechs & support units totaling 7 combat squads.
Wolverine WVR-8C
Dervish DV-6Mr
Ebony MEB-11
Gùn GN-20A Prime
Po Heavy Tank w/ Precision Ammo
Shen Long BA (SRM4)
Amazon BA (MRR?)
The League arrived with a Platoon each of Battle Armor & Motorized infantry escorted by a mixed lance of Medium Mechs & Hovercraft.
Wolverine-6M (Custom F-Grade - Endo/TSM)
Firestarter-OB (Custom Plasma Rifle Pods)
Maxim (Custom F-Grade - XL)
Savannah Master (Custom F-Grade - XL)
Marauder BA Squad
Taranis BA
Hauberk BA
Heavy Inf (Lyran Urban Response)
Both maps were the original Battletech box set maps connected on long edges with long edges also being the home edges.
They mirrored each other so the mountains were all clustered in the middle.
The CC came in from the West & the League from the East.
All 3 HQ buildings were laid out in the middle between mountains, 2 to the north half, 1 to the south.
Turn one was mostly everyone deploying & some small range fire that missed.
All Infantry/BA were mechanized with something except the Shen Long who with their speed were on the ground & moving towards the south building.
The Maxim made it to the "Middle" slightly north building & dropped off the Hauberks outside it while the Savannah Master with Marauders clinging to the outside got to the southern HQ building.
Turn 2 saw 2 BA inside the buildings while the Firestarter reached the northern most building & the Maxim shot down to the Southern building to drop off the Urban platoon to back up the Marauders.
Added fire came in but was still fairly minimal
Turn 3 saw the first serious fire start to happen but much of it missed w/ high movement mods on everyone.
The Amazons which had been dropped off early so they wouldn't be shot up at the door of the North building were sandwhiched by the Firestarter & Maxim on the NW Hill & while most of the fire missed they did take a pair of Medium Lasers which would be important later.
The Wolverine tried to play with the Dervish at close range from behind & took out an LRM rack but missed the TSM kick, rolling 6 v/s a needed 7.
Turn 4 had both CC Merc BA entering the far North & South buildings and lots of interior shooting commenced.
The Marauders took a pounding from the Shen Long while they & the Moto Infantry returned fire.
Meanwhile the Amazons unloaded on the larger Taranis & took massive return fire that killed 1/2 the squad.
The CC forces surrounded & group fired on the Firestarter ripping open the RA, RT, & landing an AC10 to the CT.
Critical hits took out a DHS & the Guardian ECM while twin Plasma Rifles resulted in a heat spike of 9 leaving the mech wounded & the pilot baking at 14 heat.
The Firestarter & Hauberks in turn combined to immobilize the Po & crit for an AC10 weapon malfunction.
The Wolverine took out some furry on the Gun with a TSM kick that went in the leg & came out the CT leaving the machine as spare parts.
The Tank crew abandoned the vehicle rather than spend a turn w/o movement or weapons.
Turn-5
Saw the Amazons decide discretion was the better part of valor & they jumped back out of the Northern building & behind cover from the Taranis.
The Shen Long again traded a massive # of SRMs at the Marauders killing 1 & leaving the others damaged before being wiped out by return Marauder/Urban Platoon fire.
The Firestarted jumped away to some woods on a hill to get out of the kill zone it was in & cooled off.
The Wolverines tangled with laser fire exchanged & a TSM kick stripped the leg of armor but left the structure intact.
Turn 6 saw the entire CC force pull back off home or side edges since they lacked infantry to get the computer drives & continued fighting would just lead to mutual destruction of mechs.
The Repair bill looks like this.
Ebony-11 - Pristine (Ready next game)
Wolverine-8C - Armor Damage (Ready next game)
Dervish-6Mr - (1+ Crits = Out 2 Games for Repairs & Side Edge retreat)
Gùn-Prime - CT Cored (Removed from Roster - Salvage 10% SP in spare parts)
Po - Immobilized/Abandoned (Crippled & out for 1 game)
Shen Long - Destroyed (Out for 2 games in the med bay)
Amazon BA - 50% Casualties (Out for 3 games in the med bay with side edge retreat)
Wolverine-6M (Armor Damage - Ready next game)
Firestarter-OB (1+ Crits - Out for 1 game)
Maxim (Pristine - Ready next game)
Savannah Master (Pristine - Ready next game)
Marauder (25% casualties - Out for 2 games)
Taranis (Armor Damage - Ready next game)
Hauberk (Pristine - Ready next game)
Heavy Inf (Pristine - Ready next game)
Pay Day Totals.
Lóng zài wù zhōng
Take the field = 200
VC-3 (Destroy 1 enemy, Cripple 2 enemies, or Damage 4 enemies) = 100
Faction, Era, Painting, & Short BV bonuses = ?
Salvage Gun Parts = ?
Total was between 400-500 IIRC.
League
Once the mech lance retreated the field was open for sweep of all 3 buildings.
All VC Conditions total 1700 SP
4 Painted minis & 10+ SP short game to +81 SP for 1781 Total IIRC.
The CC had a serious edge in raw firepower as seen by how 1 round saw the Firestarter go from pristine to ripped open.
The League had the edge in fast deployment of Infantry however & in this case, speed & numbers helped a lot.
It seemed to be a similar type situation elsewhere with the far north game having infantry hold 2-3 buildings but having the mechs outside being out gunned leading to destruction & retreat of the escorts.
The middle game had a surprise entry of a SuperNova-4 to the battle showing everyone what our first Clan Assault in the campaign can do, which is kill... everything.
-
My original plan of running the next Game Depot game on December 15 isn't going to work (Xmas party I didn't know about). Would people prefer:
- I whip up a scenario and reserve the tables, and you go on without me. (I can drop off maps and get everyone started.)
- I reserve the tables and announce an open play day, or some other (non-campaign) scenario.
- We play Sunday the 16th.
- Happy holidays; see you all in January.
-
4 Day weekend, School finally over, I want to play.
I would prefer 1 or 3 so we still get in a campaign game.
That said, any of it will work.
-
I'm good with 1 or 3 as well.
-
I Think that 3 or 1 sounds better.
-
Loyalty, Marik-Stewart Commonwealth, Fall 3126
1st Lt. Sula Babushian maneuvered her Shadow Hawk down the low foothills that surrounded the wide flat valley that Kallon had built its test site. A JumpShip had entered the system by pirate point 39 hours ago putting the planetary defenders on alert. Just over an hour ago Bonne Temps traffic control had calculated the DropShip’s trajectory and determined that “Bonne Flatts” was the most likely place for the raider to put down. “Bonne Flatts” was Kallon Industries property, which meant it was Kartr’s Kavaliers responsibility, and with Colonel Kartr still on light duty after the last raid, she was the senior officer with a ‘Mech fast enough to reach the site before the raiders.
“Babe, Firecracker” Lt. Latakara’s transmission crackled through through Sula’s headset, the distortion minimal despite the ECM that Latakara’s Hatchetman was putting out. “Firecracker, this is Babe. Send it.”
“Babe I count four, repeat four ‘Mechs moving towards the flats.” Lt. Latakara, ‘Firecracker’, sounded eager, almost hungry as she reported. “Looks like two Rifleman, a Phoenix Hawk and…” The transmission cut off as Latakara tried to make out the fourth ‘Mech.
“Firecracker, Babe. I copy two Rifleman and a Phoenix Hawk. Do you have an ID on the fourth ‘Mech?”
“Negative Babe, I’ve never seen one that looks like it, and they’re too far away for my computer to get a solid ID, but they’re moving fast towards the east field control bunker.”
“Copy that Firecracker.” Sula opened up the throttle on her Shadow Hawk, the beak like head of her “Project Phoenix” model leaning into the run. “‘Dust Devil Two’ head west and drop your ‘crunchies’ at the west control bunker. ‘Bus Three’ you’re with me, we’re heading to the main research bunker.”
‘Dust Devil Two’, a Fulcrum III hover tank with Marauder battle armor clinging to it like barnacles, raced up next to her and veered off, fans blowing the eponyms dust as they ramped up to full power. At just over 150km/h they were practically guaranteed to reach their objective before the opposing forces. ‘Bus Three’, a Maxim Mk II, paced her as she hit 75km/h, keeping her covered in its ECM bubble. While 75km/h was not her best speed, any faster and she’d risk dislodging the Marauder battle armor clinging to her ‘Mech.
They’d come down the service road from the main Kallon facilities and it spilled them out of the low foothills and forests just under half a kilometer from the main research and monitoring station. Within twenty seconds she was bringing the Shadow Hawk to a fast stop next to the bunker’s entrance. Opening a commline to the squad clinging to her she said, “Everyone off! Take and hold that bunker.”
Switching her comm channel, as she felt the battle armor release their clamps and drop away, she called over to Bus Three, “Bus Three, Babe. Drop the machine gunners here at bunker alpha, then Firecracker and I will screen you so you can make the run to bunker charlie.” She saw the Maxim slide up next to the building, hugging it to prevent the enemy units from firing on it or the squad of Inner Sphere Standard battle armour that was charging down the rear ramp.
A call from Firecracker pulled her gaze up and away from the dismounting infantry. “Uh Babe, Firecracker one of those Rifleman isn’t…” Firecracker’s Hatchetman was dropping into a stand of trees, fire from her jump jets scorching the trunks as laser fire crackled past the ‘Mech. “My computer is reading it as a ‘Glass Spider’!” Sula could hear the Hatchetman’s rotary autocannon spinning up for a long burst and the hint of fear that Latakara couldn’t quite hide.
It was fear that was starting to trickle down Sula’s spine as well. They’d already been heavily outmassed before, at least two sixty ton mechs to her fifty-five tonner and Latakara’s fourty-five tonner. Now one of those sixty tonners the raiders were driving turned out to be a Clan ‘Mech! ‘Dust Devil Two’ was a solid combatant, but the Maxim mk II alongside her wasn’t armed with anything worth counting and there were two other ‘Mechs in the blue livery of the raiders. Her unit probably wouldn’t be able to do much more than secure any data they could and then pull back to the heavy element that was still twenty minutes or more away. And with the range and hitting power of that Clan ‘Mech they’d be hard pressed to do even that!
“I read you Firecracker” she responded. “Stay mobile, we only have to keep them distracted long enough for the infantry to pull the data drives and wipe the servers.”
“Copy that, Babe. Computer identifies the other two as a Crusader and a Battle Cobra, Inner Sphere…” The rest of Firecracker’s transmission disappeared into the ripping thunder of her RAC vomiting 105mm shells towards the blue ‘Mechs. Sula triggered her own jump jets, now that the infantry was clear, and vaulted over the building as her own rotary cannon began to spin up.
“Bus Three, Babe. See if you can whip around bunker charlie and drop your crunchies.” As she landed she saw Latakara come flying out of the copse she’d been hiding in, clear the Battle Cobra and land right by the Glass Spider. She almost cheered as the daring Hatchetman’s rotary cannon tore chunks out of the clan ‘Mech, but the subsequent swing of the heavy hatchet missed the Battle Cobra as it stepped forward and shed some sort of battle armour that had been clinging to it.
Her Maxim Mk II raced forward and spat a pair of missiles that cratered into the Rifleman, while ‘Dust Devil Two’ lashed out with its PPC but missed the Glass Spider. Firecracker wasn’t so lucky as her foe. The Glass Spider lashed out with most of its laser scoring deep gouges across the unfortunate Hatchetman, before twisting and slashing at the Maxim Mk II with its remaining pulse lasers. Most of the attackers other shots missed, apparently thrown off by Latakara’s insane choice to rush her Hatchetman into the middle of a full lance of enemy machines.
Lt. Sula kept her ‘Mech unpredictable as she leaped towards a stand of trees, her rotary autocannon burning through ammo at a high rate. Unfortunately the enemy seemed less interested in her as ‘Bus Three’ took a pair of solid hits from the Rifleman’s light autocannons. She heard screaming in the background as the corporal in charge of the flame thrower squad commed her, “Babe, ‘Flamer 6’. We are going to need a medivac, we have a casualty from that last hit.”
Her mind racing Lt Sula replied, “Copy that, stabilize him and prepare to fall back.” Making up her mind she opened a commline to her entire force. “All units prepare to fallback as soon as the bunkers are sanitized.” She continued to hammer at the Glass Spider with her rotary autocannons and lasers as her units acknowledged her orders. ‘Dust Devil Two’ speared one of the enemy battlesuits with it’s PPC while ‘Firecracker’ charged past the enemy Rifleman and turned to bring her heavy hatchet to bear. For a second Sula thought that Latakara had succeeded in avoiding most of the enemy firepower, then she saw unknown battle armor disappear behind a solid wall of smoke. “Firecracker LOOK OUT!” She screamed into the comm and for a second she thought the Hatchetman might evade the worst of that terrible volley of missiles.
Lt. Latakara heard the warning too late. She glanced out the left side of her cockpit canopy to see the pall of missile smoke billowing around the battle armor she had been ignoring and tried to throw her ‘Mech to the side. The hatchet in her right hand was already hurtling towards Rifleman’s vulnerable rear armor and the momentum was too great for her to overcome. Stumbling, she tried to compensate, but it was too late. The missiles hammered on her ‘Mech, blasting armor then cratering internal structure. Suddenly she heard the computer warning her of containment failure and she felt the heat spike in the cockpit, a stunningly loud explosion slammed her back in her command chair as one of the enemy missiles slammed into the Hatchetman’s head. Then, before she could even gather her wits, two more missiles cracked open the reactor of her ‘Mech and the automated ejection system rocketed the Hatchetman’s head up and away from its stricken body.
Sula watched the head of the Hatchetman shoot skyward and knew there was no chance for her surviving machines to stop the enemy lance. The best they could hope for was to deny the enemy forces access to the files they’d undoubtedly been sent to steal. ‘Bus Three’ had just disappeared behind bunker charlie and would be able to clear the far side and make the dash to safety in the next couple of moments. Then she noticed the Rifleman, that ‘Firecracker’ had been focusing on, twist and unleash a full salvo at the retreating Maxim Mk II. For a second she thought the tough little APC might survive, but incredibly accurate autocannon fire hammered into the same spot over and over again until it plowed into the ground. Things were going from bad to worse and for a moment she though everyone aboard must have been killed, then she saw armored figures cut their way out of the wreckage with their battle claws and sprint towards the bunker. First three and then four more, they disappeared inside the bunker, the orange glow of hellfire preceding them. Still she was going to have to extract the rest of her people.
“‘Dust Devil Two’, Babe. Your passengers should be almost done by down, get back and pick them up.” She commed as she threw her ‘Mech backwards on pillars of fire. “‘Gunners One’, Babe. Your ride is down. I need you to start withdrawing back towards the forests. Avoid enemy contact and regroup with the second detachment as quickly as possible.”
“Copy that, Babe. We’ve also got the data from the drives here we’ll take that with us.” She breathed a small sigh of relief. At least they were going to secure most of the sensitive data that Kallon had tasked with protecting. The loss of the east bunker wasn’t going to reflect well on her, or the Kavaliers, but at least the research bunker and its valuable testing data weren’t going to fall into raider hands. “‘Marauder One’ I’m going to pick you boys up and we’re in a bit of a hurry!” She called to the other battle armor squad in the research bunker.
“We read you Babe. We’ll be waiting and ready!” Something smashed into her ‘Mech and the machine almost tumbled out of the sky. A quick glance at her monitors showed her that one of the jumpjets in her torso had been smashed shut by an autocannon round from the Rifleman. “Negative ‘Marauder One’ I just took heavy damage. I’m not going to be able to make pickup. Get back in the bunker and hold till the relief column gets here.”
“Hold until relieved. Aye.” The almost bored response was somehow heartening as she stumbled into a run towards the hills she’d come out of at the start of the fight. The Marauders were tough battle suits, they’d hold up against anything that tried to root them out of that bunker. ‘Dust Devil Two’ was picking up the squad of Marauders and they’d extract behind her, regroup with Lt. Lorenz “Antman” Antinian and his column then drive the raiders back to their DropShip and off world.
She was well away from the fighting when her comm crackled to life. “Babe, Marauder Two. ‘Dust Devil Two’ clipped a tree, we’ve got the crew and we’re dispersing into the forest. Enemy forces are moving on bunker bravo.”
“‘Marauder Two’ I copy. ‘Marauder One’ keep me apprised of the enemies actions.” The force commanders voice crackled through Staff Sergeant Mourad’s helmet. “Marauder One-Six I copy.” He replied reflexively. His small squad, fire team really, had moved back into the bunker and now he was watching a full lance of BattleMechs mill around bunker bravo. The two squads that were aboard ‘Bus Three’ when it died had reported contact with an enemy battle armor squad in bunker charlie. Then almost immediately after they reported the enemy squad had fallen back towards the DropShip and flight recorder drives were missing. He’d ordered them to holdfast, they’d be safer in a bunker than trying to engage BattleMechs in the open.
“There’s the battle armor boss.” One of his troopers reported as the enemy battle suits dashed from bunker bravo and clambered back aboard one of their BattleMechs.
“Think they’ll call it quits or come here?” Asked one of the other troopers “I’d like to actually get some today instead of just babysit electronics.” The soldier continued.
“Well that ‘Mech is moving towards us… Scratch that they’re all moving towards us!” The first trooper interjected.
“That answer your question, Charlie?” Mourad said. “Alright its four on four, but we’ve got the advantage being in here so lets put them in the ground and earn that combat pay.”
The four Marauders opened fire on the enemy battle armor as it dismounted. Support PPCs and recoilless rifles tore chunks out of the heavy clan armor, but none of the enemies actually went down before they breached the bunker’s entrance. Once inside the fighting got brutal as both sides unleashed what would have been anti-tank weapons in a previous age. Protected by their heavy armor SSgt Mourad’s Marauders managed to gain the upper hand and kill or incapacitate all four of the clan suits though not without losses. Their battle armor out of commission and more Kavaliers showing up on long range radar the raider ‘Mechs pulled back to their DropShip.
Summary
Jason's force heavily out massed me as he had a Glass Spider, Battle Cobra (IS), Rifleman with four Light AC/5s shooting precision ammo, and a Crusader vs my Hatchetman, Shadow Hawk, Fulcrum III and Maxim Mk II. I had the advantage in infantry terms though, with two squads of Marauder BA, one of IS Standard MG, one of IS Standard Flamers and one of Gray Death Standard (LRR) as well as fast transport capabilities.
I was too aggressive with the Hatchetman, though poor rolling on Jason's part kept her alive for the first couple of turns and then the Corona BA fired 30 SRMs at the Hatchetman spent edge to re-roll the clusters for and wound up getting something like 24 hits. That breached the left and center torsos and scored three engine crits as well as a head hit putting the Hatchetman down.
I'd already decided I was going to start pulling everything back and rely on having held the two bunkers to his one keep my score up. Then the Rifleman knocked out the Maxim Mk II, which lead to a lot of confusion about what happens to infantry carried by APCs. Joel eventually ruled that we were going to use "mechanized infantry" rules from the BA section which only killed off one suit of Flamers. The IS Standard Flamers and GD Standard LRR squads rushed into the bunker hoping to "reset" Jason's counter. Joel said that it wouldn't reset and I couldn't kill his BA that turn, so Jason scored the bunker and moved his squad off the field the following movement phase.
Shadow Hawk took a JJ crit as it was falling back so I decided to move the Marauder BA back into the bunker and force a stalemate while moving the IS Standard (MG) off the field to score the objective. Fulcrum went to pick up the other Marauder squad and extract them to score another objective. Fulcrum fails a driving check (rolls 4 needs 5) and skids into light woods and is immobilized. Marauder BA dismounts. Jason's mechs hammer on the Fulcrum and score something like two more immobilized results and a stunned result, Fulcrum returns fire to no effect. Fulcrum crew bails out at the end of the round.
Over the next three rounds the Marauder BA move through the woods getting more and more difficult to hit until they're blocked (1 heavy and 1 light intervening) and make it off the board. Jason moves his Corona BA into the far bunker and we start "fast forwarding" because I have nothing that can shoot at him and he doesn't want to shoot the bunkers. Basically we just skipped the three turns it took for him to search the bunker and score the objective and the two turns to move the BA out, and pick them up.
Once his BA dismounted by the central bunker we started rolling dice again. I did some decent damage to his battle armor as they dismounted, but not enough to kill any of them. He moved into the building and almost killed a Marauder, while I killed one of the Coronas. That was his last shot of SRMs so the next turn it was his 3 recoilless rifles and three heavy flamers vs my 8 support ppcs, 4 recoilless rifles and 4 anti-personnel weapons. He finished off the Marauder who was out of armor and another one that had only two points left. My fire killed all three Coronas.
We called it there. Had a lot of fun and Jason was a great opponent.
-
which lead to a lot of confusion about what happens to infantry carried by APCs. Joel eventually ruled that we were going to use "mechanized infantry" rules from the BA section which only killed off one suit of Flamers.
I found it! It's the table on the bottom right of page 223.
-
I found it! It's the table on the bottom right of page 223.
SWEET! I think we basically did that except we flipped the numbers and counted 1-2 as destroyed and 3-6 as survived rather than 1-4 survived and 5-6 destroyed.
-
I don't know how I didn't see that table when I was reading the "Mounting" section.
I mean, its RIGHT THERE.
Also, page 224 of mounting also notes that the Vehicle does have to spend MP again when picking up infantry.
So its not the Infantry MP like we were thinking.
-
Make sure you have the latest errata when checking MP for mounting and dismounting infantry.
-
So I see 3 votes above for "1 or 3" and nothing for 2 or 4.
Has there been an consensus on what will be happening & when?
-
I'll be dropping stuff off and getting things going, then leaving. I'll keep the scenario on the simple side.
Sorry for the recent lack of communication - I have four concerts in eight days, starting this evening. Sanity will be restored after.
-
Sounds hectic.
Good Luck,
May the Force be with you,
When in doubt, drink till you feel happy :)
-
I'll be dropping stuff off and getting things going, then leaving. I'll keep the scenario on the simple side.
Sorry for the recent lack of communication - I have four concerts in eight days, starting this evening. Sanity will be restored after.
Have fun, don't worry about us.
-
Scenario for December 15: https://mailchi.mp/892737d4eb59/tat0azt8gq-1354249 (https://mailchi.mp/892737d4eb59/tat0azt8gq-1354249)
-
Did you intend to leave in the lines about infantry ?
-
Yep. A little variety.
-
As usual, thanks for the fun game Joel! :thumbsup:
We had 7 players & GM Joel show up so we split off into our new 1v1 format with 4 battles going on.
I don't know how all the games went but I think at least 3 of them were pretty close.
I believe the matchups were as follows.
Game NE = Lóng zài wù zhōng v/s Non-Campaign Player.
Game SE = GM Joel v/s Kartr's Kavaliers
Game NW = Little John's Merry Men v/s "Team JJ" (Unit Name to be determined)
Game SW = The League of Indiscriminate Justice v/s our newest recruit playing a Wolf Dragoons (Dark Age Era) force. (Unit Name to be determined)
Not sure how the NE game finished, but I believe the Kavaliers held the field on the SE game despite loosing the BattleMaster.
The NW Game saw IS-BattleCobra-F get cored in a slugfest of a fight. Both sides had objective #1 & possibly both had #2 (Waiting on a rules answer from Joel.)
The SW Game was also a slugfest that saw both teams obtain both objectives.
The breakdown was as follows.
League Force: 1 Mech, 3 Vehicles, 2 Carried Infantry, 7049 BV
Gunslinger-2ERD
Heavy LRM Carrier (Custom-D-Grade)
Zibler-A
Cavalry VTOL (Custom-F-Grade)
Taranis BA
Jump Infantry - Special Forces
Dragoons Force: 3 Mechs, 1 Carried Infantry, 7393 BV
Atlas-K3
MadCat-III-3
Osiris-3D
Fa-Shih-Support-Plasma x5
Maps: Connected on Long Edge in East/West positions.
River Valley: Western Map with Mountain on the East side of River. West Edge was League Home Edge.
Lake Area: Eastern Map with River flowing to the south. East edge was the Dragoon Home Edge.
Turn-1 Dragoons move on first from east edge southern end. League moves up on from the southern west edge opposite the Dragoons.
The Zibler & Cavalry move up the river & drop off both infantry on the North end of the mountain.
The MadCat-III fires on the Heavy LRM Carrier from 21 hexes & connects with an LRM-20 to score first blood.
No return fire possible from the League
Turn-2 The Osiris charges the mountain while the MadCat runs through the forest & the Atlas takes a rear hill to look over the forest.
The League Infantry move out & fire on the Osiris while the Gunslinger jumps over the river to take the hill. The Cavalry end runs to the enemy rear.
Turn-3 The damage is showing. The Osiris takes massive fire from the Heavy LRM Carrier (23 of 60 SRMs connect), but in turn the HLC is immobilized just as it reaches light woods. The Gunslinger starts landing Gauss rounds. The Infantry continue to lay out crit seeking love.
Meanwhile the Dragoons are landing Gauss, ERLL, & Clan ERPPC/LRM fire more & more accurately.
Turn-4 Dragoon Fa-Shih are hammered by combined fire from the Taranis & Zibler while scorching some Taranis suits. The Osiris has been de-legged & de-armed & does more damage as it keeps trying to stand. The Zibler is immobilized by the Atlas as it attempts to backstab the MadCat-III. The Gunslinger has taken stacked damage on the RT & is in danger of loosing the XL. The HLC has structure showing after repeated rounds of fire from all 3 Dragoon mechs. Both immobile tanks shut down & bail out in the end phase as both will not live through a round of Atlas fire.
Turn-5 The MadCat & Gunslinger both pull back behind cover to preserve exposed engines. But the Osiris finally stands & gets dropped by the Gunslinger who misses with both Gauss but connects with 3 ERML to core the CT. The Infantry & Cavalry combine to crit the MadCat out with destroyed ST & 1 crit on CT engine.
Turn-6 The Atlas is looking for payback & charges forward to kill the gunslinger who continues to backpedal behind the mountain top so he slams the Cavalry with an alpha strike but only does armor damage.
Meanwhile the Infantry take the lead & charge down the hill hammering the Atlas with laser & rifle fire joined in by the Cavalry's lasers.
The Atlas fails its PSR & goes down south of the Mountain.
Turn-7 The Atlas stands back up & faces off against the infantry & Cavalry again & gets critted in the Streak ammo to blow out the CASE & loose the ST.
Game Over.
Butcher's Bill (Repair Times)
Dragoons:
Osiris is cored & removed from roster w/ spare parts refund. Pilot is alive & will need a new mech.
Atlas & Madcat are both XL destroyed, Out for 3 games each. Atlas pilot also took 4 pilot his w/ that ammo explosion so he'll be doing a 3 game concussion protocol.
The Fa-Shih are out destroyed & out for 2 games healing.
League
The Heavy LRM Carrier & Zibler were both Immobile & suffered a crit so either of those cost a game but don't stack + Bail Out adds 1 game so out for 2 games each.
The Cavalry & Taranis lost armor, ready for next game.
The Jump Platoon took 1 wound & will be healed up by next game.
The Gunslinger backed off before taking any crits to the exposed RT so is ready for next game but was a ML shot away from destroyed & out 3 games. (Discretion is the better part of valor & all that.)
SP Awards (Memory might be off)
League = 200+300+300+20 Painted Mini+5 Short 51 BV = 825 SP
Dragoons = 200+300+300+40Faction+20Era+60PaintedMinis+0ShortBV+60SalvageOsirisParts = 980 SP
Fun game all around today.
-
Not sure how the NE game finished, but I believe the Kavaliers held the field on the SE game despite loosing the BattleMaster.
They did. The Hammerhands was badly mauled and the Marauder BA squad was one guy in a suit full of holes, but the jumps-seven Wolverine was pristine. We figured my Warhammer would have escaped with the Longbow sacrificing itself for covering fire, because I didn't have the accuracy to deal with that Wolverine.
The NW Game saw IS-BattleCobra-F get cored in a slugfest of a fight. Both sides had objective #1 & possibly both had #2 (Waiting on a rules answer from Joel.)
What's the question?
-
We put it on the results sheet but we are looking for clarification on "Crippled"
There was a vehicle that had been -1 Motived down to 0 MP.
But I seem to recall that having 3-4 -1's to be down to 0 MP is not the same as the 12 result of "Immobile".
I seem to recall that you don't take the -4 to hit penalty.
So we are wondering if that counts as Immobile for Crippled per the Forced Withdrawal rules.
Basically it came down to did that vehicle count as Damaged or Crippled for victory points because it was the difference of 175% v/s 200% & getting VC #2.
-
They did. The Hammerhands was badly mauled and the Marauder BA squad was one guy in a suit full of holes, but the jumps-seven Wolverine was pristine. We figured my Warhammer would have escaped with the Longbow sacrificing itself for covering fire, because I didn't have the accuracy to deal with that Wolverine.
What's the question?
The Hammerhands actually had no internal damage at all, but all the armor on one arm was gone and it was getting pretty thin elsewhere as well. But with Jump 5 and plenty of ammo left he was a solid threat still.
-
Ah, I see. You were pretty worried about the Hammerhands -- I thought he was worse off because of that.
Basically it came down to did that vehicle count as Damaged or Crippled for victory points because it was the difference of 175% v/s 200% & getting VC #2.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59524.msg1366796#msg1366796 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=59524.msg1366796#msg1366796)
1. No, it wasn't crippled.
2. I need to come up with some more detailed "crippled" rules if I'm going to keep using that as a victory condition.
-
The rest of Forced Withdrawal / Crippled is pretty clear.
It's just that final bit about immobilized that is iffy, which is why I assume they have removed it.
-
I didn't hear since Joel left early but was there ever an announcement about the next game?
Do we have a Date or a Mission Type/Description?
-
Last we heard is it will most likely be on January 12th. No confirmation or scenario description yet.
-
The next game is theoretically Jan 12, but I haven't posted anything because I haven't gotten a proper confirmation from the store.
As for scenario I'm working on something scout based, if I can make it make sense as a symmetrical scenario.
-
We could treat it the way I "thought" game 1 was going to go back in 2016.
You have to Recon a building while at the same time trying to stop the enemy from doing the same.
Similar to the Capture Data scenario from November but with BAPs & Visual Scans.
Allow urban maps again, & put a bunch of buildings around the middle.
Maybe even pull out the 4 maps option I mentioned if we don't get a turn out of 9+ just to spread things out a bit more.
That scenario was the whole reason I purchased the Rifleman-II as part of my initial force.
LBX + BAP seemed like a good combo for that scenario when I thought we had to both Recon & Protect.
-
That's about what I was thinking. Thanks for reminding me about the urban option - things are easier, fluff-wise, if it's a city.
I wonder how many of the "buildings included" city maps I have...
-
I might be able to find my Citytech cardboard counters if we need them & I also have some foam inserts 1 hex wide that can be plopped down for buildings if needed on the blank maps.
-
I've got buildings, I just wanted to avoid the time & hassle of "assembling" maps. Maybe I'll tear my office apart looking for my copy of Heavy Metal Map.
-
The next game is theoretically Jan 12, but I haven't posted anything because I haven't gotten a proper confirmation from the store.
Confirmed. I'll get the scenario details out once I've recovered from holiday travel.
-
Scenario: Spy vs Spy
Location: Game Depot, January 12 @ 1pm
Scenario Basics:
BV limit: 7100 BV for 4 units (other unit counts have different amounts -- see rules link)
Carried Infantry: Count for BV, but do not count against the unit count until they exceed the number of non-infantry units.
Victory Condition 0 - Start the battle (200 SP) This is forfeited if you surrender or flee the field before 4 rounds have elapsed.
Victory Condition 1 - Find one enemy cache (100 SP) This can be scored up to four times.
Victory Condition 2 - Keep a cache hidden (100 SP) This can be scored up to four times.
Caches: Each player will get twelve markers. Four will be caches; the remainder are dummy markers that score no points. They must all be placed in building hexes at the start of the game (after map placement, but before round 1).
Scanning: A marker can be scanned in the following ways.
Entering a hex reveals any marker in that hex.
At the end of a non-infantry unit's movement, one adjacent marker is revealed.
A unit can forgo its weapons fire to reveal up to three adjacent markers.
Active probes (Beagle, etc.) work as rules 2 & 3, above, but within their range instead of just adjacent hexes. (Unless blocked by ECM.)
Maps: The following maps are the only maps allowed.
City (any with buildings -- not the old Citytech maps)
Drop Port 1 & 2
Military Base 1 & 2
Seaport 1 & 2
WWE 2018 #4
Not interested in a campaign but want to get a game in? I'll be bringing a few forces you can borrow, or you can make a new force each time just for that battle without worrying about the bookkeeping of a campaign.
-
I don't know what the WWE one looks like, now I'm curious.
I have some of the others & will bring a couple/few to add to the choices.
-
When you say "enter a hex", do you mean enter the building or literally just enter the hex to reveal the marker in that hex?
Also, what happens if a building is destroyed?
-
BA Active Probe and Improved Sensors count as Active Probes? (Assuming the former does since its on the name)
Piggybacking on csimian's question, can a VTOL with Active Probe just blast through the area scanning and score the objectives?
-
I don't know what the WWE one looks like, now I'm curious.
Now that the Worldwide Event is over, the maps are a free download: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/252030/BattleTech-MapPack-WWE2018-Terrain-Set (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/252030/BattleTech-MapPack-WWE2018-Terrain-Set)
I have some of the others & will bring a couple/few to add to the choices.
Cool, thanks -- I only have singles for some of them.
When you say "enter a hex", do you mean enter the building or literally just enter the hex to reveal the marker in that hex?
Enter the building. If the caches could be discovered by someone flying overhead the aerospace jockeys wouldn't need you groundpounders.
Also, what happens if a building is destroyed?
Hadn't thought about it. How does this sound?
- Non-cache building hex: Building is destroyed as normal.
- Cache building hex: The cache is not revealed. Neither team scores it, either as "discovered" or "undiscovered."
BA Active Probe and Improved Sensors count as Active Probes? (Assuming the former does since its on the name)
The BA "Light Probe" counts, with a range of 3 (its normal range). Improved Sensors count as well, with a range of 2.
Piggybacking on csimian's question, can a VTOL with Active Probe just blast through the area scanning and score the objectives?
The above answer should cover it. It can scan one hex per turn.
-
A unit can forgo its weapons fire to reveal all adjacent markers.
Active probes (Beagle, etc.) work as rules 2 & 3, above, but within their range instead of just adjacent hexes. (Unless blocked by ECM.)
This makes it sound like a probe can reveal all markers in its radius. Is that correct (assuming no ECM interferes)?
Is scanning optional if you enter the building?
What will the building CFs and levels be?
When placing markers, are you limited to placing them on your own map?
-
A unit can forgo its weapons fire to reveal all adjacent markers.
Active probes (Beagle, etc.) work as rules 2 & 3, above, but within their range instead of just adjacent hexes. (Unless blocked by ECM.)
This makes it sound like a probe can reveal all markers in its radius. Is that correct (assuming no ECM interferes)?
Yes, but I didn't think far enough ahead when I wrote that. I just edited it to be "max 3".
Is scanning optional if you enter the building?
I guess. Why wouldn't you want to?
What will the building CFs and levels be?
All the listed maps have the buildings on them already, so "as shown on map."
When placing markers, are you limited to placing them on your own map?
No.
[/quote]
-
RIP unjammable Bloodhound Probe scanning everything within a 17 hex circle :( :violin:
-
The BA "Light Probe" counts, with a range of 3 (its normal range). Improved Sensors count as well, with a range of 2.
The above answer should cover it. It can scan one hex per turn.
Point of order.
BA Probe & Light Probe are not the same thing & have different ranges.
BA Probe is full range Beagle that the GDL Scout Suit Carries & is 4 Hexes per the TW Rule Book & Previous Rule Books.
Light Probe is the Clan Protomech 1/2 size model & it has a Radius of 3 hexes.
-
So to clarify ranges.
Infantry = Same Hex (Radius-0) (Inside Building)
Vehicle/Mech Regular Sensors = Radius-1
Improved Sensors (BA) = Rad-2
Clan Light Probe = Rad-3
Beagle Probe (BA Probe) = Rad-4
Clan Probe = Rad-5
BloodHound Probe = Rad-8
-
Yes, but I didn't think far enough ahead when I wrote that. I just edited it to be "max 3".
Actually you wrote "Adjacent-3" which IMHO kind of defeats the purpose of the probes.
As it is, you'd have to be crazy to have all your markers right next to each other.
Why is it not able to sense the entire radius?
Its not like ECM has a limit on how much it blankets & with ECM overriding BAP its entirely possible to shut them down completely.
I think the Probes should get every chance they can to actually pull off a multi-marker check on both sides of the unit.
I say go with the first wording as it was written.
-
Probes reveal up to 3 non-ECM'd caches within their radius. It's not going to be "everything in radius" because the higher-end probes could scan everything on a mapsheet just by not shooting. That ends the game in 2-3 turns. I'd rather not make ECM a "must-take."
-
So just to clarify, ECM only blocks probes from scanning markers. ECM will not stop a unit from scanning a hex they enter or are adjacent to. Correct?
-
Correct.
-
Thanks again GM-Joel for the fun game as usual! :thumbsup:
We had 7 players turn out with Joel filling in the 8th slot for 4 games going on.
Each on a 2x1 map set up of urban terrain.
NW Table = Gonlar's Crusaders v/s Merry John's Little Men
SW Table = Team JJ v/s Non Campaign Player
NE Table = The League of Indiscriminate Justice v/s Polish Brigade
SE Table = Lóng zài wù zhōng v/s GM-Joel
As GM-Joel said, the blood gods were appeased today.
I think the Little Men did some major damage to the Crusaders & took the map.
Team JJ was the longest game but ended up keeping 2 buildings hidden while claiming the map as the NPC player retreated with only a Legionnaire left alive.
I'm not sure how the Cappie Mercs & GM-Joel finished up.
The League v/s Brigade break down is below.
Quick summary of the NE Table battle.
Maps were Sea Port with water facing West, the Brigade's home edge, & Military Base w/ wall to the East, at the League home edge.
Polish Brigade Forces: 3 Mechs, 1 Hover, 2 BA
Thunder-Custom Yankee (3/4)
Komodo-2 (3/5)
Phoenix Hawk-3PL (3/5)
Maxim-II (4/5)
Inner Sphere Std BA (LRR) *4 (4/5)
Golem Support BA *4 (4/5)
The League of Indiscriminate Justice Forces: 2 Mechs, 3 Vees, 3 BA
Menshen-O-J (Custom Pods - JJs) (4/5)
BlackHawk-KU-OG (4/5)
Ontos-Fusion (Custom C3M/MML) (4/5)
Crow-Dragonfly (4/5)
Beagle-Tag (4/5)
Marauder BA *4 (3/5)
GD Standard-LRR *4 (4/5)
GD Scout *4 (4/5)
The Polish Brigade has a very nasty TO&E with lots of Skilled pilots, TC's, Pulse/Precision & this force was typical of it.
The League force had less skills or accuracy to make room for lots of electronics that the mission called for.
Turn-1 Enter the map - No fire. Maxim drops of Golems around a rear batch of buildings.
Turn-2 Get closer - Crow makes a very deep end run behind the Golems & scans 3 rear buildings to find 1 cache. I think the Pixie might have tried a LPL shot at it but missed.
Turn-3 Things get interesting as real fire commences.
Phoenix Hawk jumps onto a heavy building & exchanges fire with the KU who misses most of the return fire. KU also uses the Bloodhound to scan 1 building, gets lucky & finds a cache.
Beagle makes an end run past the Kimodo & Pixie to drop off BA & scan a building while targeting the Golems w/ TAG. (Another Lucky Guess for a cache)
The Golems & Maxim open up on the Beagle & score multiple motive hits leaving it Immobile deep in enemy territory. The crew shuts down & surrenders in the end phase.
Crow moves over to a middle trio of buildings & scans 3 to find the 4th cache.
Menshen moves up & the Thunder rounds the corner to exchange fire taking an AC20 to the leg & some ERM/MPLs. Ouch.
MenShen TAGs the Thunder in return & opens up with 8 Medium Lasers while the Ontos rains down 45 LRMs. Lots of small fire scattered over the Thunder.
Turn-4 Phoenix Hawk takes cover in trees near the Kimodo while the Marauders move in to the same trees. Maxim moves up & drops off ISBA near the Marauders.
KU moves down the street to face the Phoenix Hawk at Point blank range, only to have the Kimodo walk through 2 light buildings to join the Pixie facing the KU (Ouch, this is gonna hurt)
All that fire left the KU with holes & 1 DHS crit while the Maxim is immobilized with Crew bailing out. Pixie took a Kick from the KU after it shot at the Kimodo in the building. KU misses PSR & burns edge to reroll to avoid falling over while surrounded by a full platoon of Mechs & BA.
The Thunder hit reverse & backed up down the street. Menshen jumped behind to block exit while Ontos continued to Indirect fire because of all the buildings. No TAGs locked so most of the LRMs missed from Crow spotting against the Thunder. The Menshen went 1/7 with ML's but it reduced the CT-R armor which will mean something next turn. AC20 missed the Menshen.
Turn-5: The KU jumps over a building to try to escape the BA while the Kim pursues & Pixie takes up position to hit the KU & cover Menshen movement options
The Thunder heads forward again to try & get fire on the KU as well but can't quite clear the buildings.
The MenShen jumps to the top of a building to fire on Kimodo rear & penetrates both Side torsos going 4/8 on MLs.
Thunder misses the Menshen w/ AC20 again but fire from MPL & Pixie sheers off the Menshen RA completely on a crit 12.
Golems wound the Marauder BA while Marauders fire on the ISBA but can't finish any of them off. ISBA flamer the Marauders & cause building hex to collapse finishing of 1 BA Trooper.
Kimodo hammers the KU again killing 2 BA that were still riding it while the KU goes 0/4 on the Kimodo.
The Ontos brings down 45 LRMs on the Thunder for the 3rd round in a row & breaches the rear torso. Another Crit-12 roll this turn doing 2 Engines & a Gyro.
The Thunder falls over on its Rear & does a 3rd engine crit destroying the mech.
At this point the Brigade calls the game w/o penalty as its after Turn-4 & 1 side had achieved both VC's.
The Death Toll was impressive for a game w/o any "Truly" Dead units. As Joel said, "the blood gods are pleased" >:D
Polish Brigade is out 3 units for a total of 6 games.
Thunder - 3 Games (Destroyed Engine)
Maxim - 2 Games (Immobile & Abandoned)
Kimodo - 1 Game (DHS Crit) (I think this is the 3rd unit anyway)
League damage was even more impressive loosing 5 units for a total of 8 games.
MenShen - 2 Games (5+ Crits)
Beagle - 2 Games (Immobile & Abandoned)
GD Scouts - 2 Games (2 BA destroyed)
Black Hawk KU - 1 Game (1 DHS Crit)
Marauder BA - 1 Game (1 BA destroyed)
In hindsight these maps have FAR less open area that we first thought, as you look closer at them you start to see that the buildings have no paths moving through them & this made for a very cramped playing area. This lead to brutal close range exchanges & everyone but the Crow moving slower for fear of skidding into buildings.
The League came prepared for Recon & got very lucky in guesses on buildings early.
The Brigade was doing far more damage till the final round when LRM clusters tore open the rear torso of the Thunder killing it by engine crits.
Had the game kept going I feel like we would have been down to Phoenix Hawk v/s Ontos/Crow in a couple more rounds.
-
Glad you enjoyed it.
Next game is Feb 9; scenario coming soon.
-
I've received a number of (mild) complaints lately, notable in that people all have different ideas of what this campaign should be. There's a spectrum of roleplayer <--> wargamer, and as designed this campaign caters toward the latter (unless you don't care if you lose). So I'm scrapping it and starting over once I figure something out. I'm leaning toward redefining "campaign" as "a series of linked scenarios in a set era," with each campaign lasting 5-6 games (resetting for the next). I can't have huge amounts of refitting and pilot improvement and still support casual players -- and it's my job as a demo agent to bring new people into the game.
Since the Beginners box set should be out in a few days, the next game will have one table doing some 3025 scenarios, and the other table... well, I'd like to set up a big Alpha Strike game on my new airfield map; any takers?
-
I am interested in reading whatever linked escenarios you are thinking about to steal ideas for my own games. :) Bed together luck with the new series of games!
-
Continuing as-is is definitely out. The current version is too unfriendly to new and casual players. It was not my intent to create a tournament-level game, but that's what I did. It's mainly the fault of me trying to shoehorn in all the various eras and tech. I think the basic structure works, but advanced/experimental tech (even stuff that's "standard" in 3150) increases the complexity of force design (the "rock/paper/scissors" effect) beyond the ability of a new or casual player. Additionally, with no unit cap players who have earned a lot of SP aren't encumbered in the slightest by different missions, but a newer player would find them very difficult (e.g., scouting -- someone who can buy a stack of Angel-equipped units has a huge advantage over someone who cannot, and the game is over before it's begun).
The whole thing is complicated by the small player-base -- this isn't 40K or WarmaHordes, and I really can't afford to alienate people. The end product needs to be easy enough for anyone to join (e.g., GM-provided forces should be viable), the options need to be reduced (lots of Advanced/Experimental stuff removed), and there needs to be a drawback to specialization.
My current pondering runs something like this:
- Total reset. If nothing else, that kicks any imbalance issues down the road a ways.
- Unit cap of "one Union", which is nominally 12 mechs + 2 fighter bays. Mechanically, call it 12 bays that hold anything, 2 vehicle bays, sub-20-ton units take half a bay, and up to four non-mechanized infantry platoons for free. This keeps "stable" sizes under control, and makes specialized units less useful.
- Set the timeframe as "immediately post-Jihad." That gives the widest unit availability without getting into advanced/experimental complexities and imbalances. If you want to do a Dark Age/RotS unit that's fine, but advanced/experimental tech doesn't work. (Maybe come up with a short list of "harmless" advanced/experimental tech.)
- (Maybe) Lose the ECCM advanced rule. If I wanted to play "EW Officer" I'd play Harpoon. I realize that kind of shafts C3 forces, but I'm OK with that.
- Separate pilot improvement from support points by going (back) to some sort of XP system. Maybe allow the hiring of up to 3/4 to offset this.
- Allow clan and hybrid tech, but make purchase and modifications much more expensive as well as increasing repair time. Putting Clan weapons on all your IS units shouldn't be an automatic choice.
- Decrease the cost of replacing a destroyed unit. Easy with stock units; harder to compute/justify with heavily-customized ones.
- Re-work infantry healing. You should be able to replace a small percentage without any down-time, but a totally-destroyed unit should take longer, or have to be replaced.
-
The overall problem I'm dealing with is differing expectations. Scenarios are easy if I also control force design, but then it's just scenarios, not a campaign. Lots of choice sounds good, until you realize that some players are so much better at choosing than others that it's not a game, just a slaughter. Proposing a "gentleman's agreement" to keep forces "sane" is too open to interpretation, so the way to go is to shrink choice back down again.
Another issue I have to work around is attendance. With a less formal campaign, you play when everyone can get together; having to, instead, deal with whomever shows up limits the "sequential battles" aspect. I can't do anything about that, though, so it's something to work around. (Family & work trump gaming. Always.)
Then there's the issue of game structure. The current (ex-current?) method is more like tournament play. I think I can fix some things by specifying map choice; while that raises the issue map map count (there are very few map arrangements where I can guarantee, by way of owning, enough maps for everyone), if I specify the map as "This, or something similar" I can get away with it. So that removes one way in which a battle is lost before initiative is rolled; another is force design. The previous post has some ways to help that. What I'd really like to do is chained scenarios so that you have to have a balanced force -- many mission-based scenarios break down if a player can craft the perfect force, but if the same force has to fight multiple battles... Of course then you have the problems of being stuck with a poorly-designed force (i.e., a longer cycle before you can fix mistakes) and dealing with damaged/destroyed units, as well as the aforementioned varying attendance.
Unfortunately, the campaign structures in the various Battletech supplements tend to be either player-vs-GM (effectively) or a single campaign (in the military, not RPG, sense) that's implied one-vs-one. At cons, outside of actual tournaments everything is a "big game," which we're trying to get away from because we don't get enough rounds in.
So the pondering continues... :bang:
-
You may have reached analysis paralysis. Whatever you do, don't conclude that the only way to win is not to play...
The idea of linked scenarios with a fixed force is interesting, but what happens if a significant portion of your force is taken out in a mission?
-
I mentioned that.
You may have reached analysis paralysis. Whatever you do, don't conclude that the only way to win is not to play...
Not paralysis, just re-listing everything for rubber ducky analysis.
The idea of linked scenarios with a fixed force is interesting, but what happens if a significant portion of your force is taken out in a mission?
I think I mentioned it -- I don't have an answer, which is why I was looking at just smaller overall forces. If everyone is limited to a reinforced company there's less optimization. It does increase the value of omnis, though, and if someone has a bad couple of games they'll be very limited in what they can bring in the next game.
Another parameter I'd like to get rid of is the fixed BV, but I don't think I can do that without losing the PvP aspect. That's why I had the idea of having everyone play two games -- once as player, and once as GM. I don't think people want to try to finish a game in 2.5 hours, though, which is why I've pretty much discarded it.
-
In regards to 12 units.
I'm not showing anyone had 12 units at the end.
Brand new players who had already lost several units had 18+.
I started with 9 back when we started with 8K, the point of going to 20K was to allow people to expand so losses were not painful.
2 years into the campaign the largest forces were 25-30 units, many of which were small infantry platoons & BA squads
If brand new players were having issues when they could form forces a couple dozen strong then how is limiting them to 12 going to help?
My thoughts:
1. I'd still like to try 4 maps per game both for more room to maneuver & to not place so much pressure on what single map is picked & how its laid out.
2. TacOps gear. I think a very small amount of it is good stuff. Mostly weapons & ammo. The ECM/AP options is just the normal stuff on steroids & I'd be fine w/o it.
3. I like the ECCM rule. W/O it C3 is just wasted tonnage & massively overpriced BV.
4. The infantry healing was for simplicity. Honestly, they are so cheap its not like your penalized for buying new other than the points you invested into skills. Which would be fixed if we just turned skills into the purchase cost. The 300 for a single skill up for a 100 BV platoon was the expensive part. If instead we purchased it at 120 BV for a 3 Gunner then it would be fine.
Perhaps track XP to gauge WHEN the unit is able to skill up & link cost to the BV so skilling up that Atlas-8D costs more than the Locust-1V.
-
If brand new players were having issues when they could form forces a couple dozen strong then how is limiting them to 12 going to help?
Analysis paralysis. Having lots of options and choices doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing. Accessibility is key here -- I want new players to have fun, not be clubbed like baby seals. (The same goes for experienced but casual players -- some people just want to show up and play.)
A reduction in unit count would require a reduction in repair time as well, of course.
That said, force size limits might not be necessary if I remove a lot of the toys and the power of customization. Part of the problem is that BV is imperfect, and thus customization means a better force. Another problem is that a lot of the TacOps stuff doesn't have points. (That's all going away, though. Ammo is just a huge list to beginners... until they get hit with stuff they don't know exists. I'm going back to the old way with a couple of useful TacOps rules like floating crit, but design rules are limited to TechManual.) Finally, a large force size is just insurance against losses if the scenarios are simple. Scenarios that require active probes, or hands/cargo space to carry stuff off, or infantry to take buildings... I think a big part of the problem was scenarios other than "meet in the middle" -- I really don't think they're compatible with a campaign like this.
Really, the idea behind a force limit is to make it so that a new player is competitive with an experienced player (outside of player skill). A new player faced with piles of clantech and exotic ammo isn't coming back; the Battletech population is too small to let that happen.
-
Precision ammo can still be problematic, and that's in TW.
-
Yeah, that's a tough one. It was introduced to make autocannons more relevant, but its penalty -- half shots per ton -- is only a penalty for some designs. Even with customization you can get around it by squeezing in an extra ton of ammo. If I were the BV overlord, it would have an extra cost just like semi-guided.
On the other hand, it's in the main rulebook, as opposed to the wall-of-text that is TacOps. (And if I pull precision, I'm also pulling semi-guided, which I think causes much more imbalance and hard feelings.)
-
I'm OK with nixing SG. I'd rather have more players than not. As for precision ammo, there's a reason why I took the Rifleman 6D: LAC 5's and lots of ammo. It doesn't even need customization.
-
I don't see an issue with Precision ammo once you consider that ALL Ammo using units are over BV'd to begin with for any design that has to use more than 1 ton of ammo.
If it packs 2 tons of ammo, or more, its now over BV'd v/s Energy weapons. (So basically every AC20 & LRM20 unit in the game & many AC10/LRM15 & a few AC5/LRM10)
Precision goes a little way towards balancing them against the BV calculations used for Energy weapons.
-
The more I look at BattleTech, the less it looks like a proper "wargame" and the more it looks like an RPG like D&D. The game really seems designed around players vs a GM, rather than players showing up and duking it out over mission objectives. I guess the lack of official missions in the core rules should have been my first clue.
So working on that assumption (BattleTech is structured as an RPG not as a wargame) how do we come up with a system that lets each player be the GM for their opponent while simultaneously being a player in their own story?
1. Balanced Forces: you have to be able to provide "NPCs" for your "PC" (opponent) to battle through to achieve their objectives, while simultaneously having the forces necessary to battle through your "GM's" forces to achieve your victory as a PC.
2. Asymmetrical Missions: not every "Group of PCs" (Player and their force) is going to have the same goals or story that their opponent has. Missions should reflect this and avoid a symmetrical match up where both forces are trying to achieve the same objectives. Instead both players have a unique primary objective which scores the most points, and they have a secondary objective to prevent the other player from achieving his objective.
3. Unique missions or stories for each player is way too much work for Joel: Roughly divide the players into two groups, treat each group as a single player and use the 1v1 command tracks to determine what missions Team A and Team B have for that month.
-
Ideally, that would be the case. Like any RPG, you need to get all the players on the same page -- just as you don't want to mix someone looking for a political intrigue campaign with another who just wants to kill orcs, we have a mix of player desires and play-styles here. Some want to chronicle the trials and tribulations of their mercenary company; others want to craft the perfect military machine; and still others just want to blow up giant robots. There's nothing wrong with any of these. It is, however, difficult to provide for all those types in a single campaign. As I mentioned earlier, we haven't the playerbase to have multiple campaigns.
At first I read your #3 as "do many-vs-many games," because we've tried that and it doesn't work, either. Then I realized what you're suggesting -- continuing to pair off 1-vs-1 but with asymmetrical scenarios in which each person's primary goal is different, and their secondary goal is to prevent the other player from completing their primary goal. I like that, but it still leaves the logistical issues of:
1. Everyone has to hit a BV target. (That's what we have now, and I'd love to get rid of that.)
2. A large differential in force construction skill or ability is insurmountable in play, leading to the "Why did I show up?" feeling.
3. Accessibility - force design rules need to be simple enough that a new player can easily handle the math, and make a competitive force from day one.
I can live without #1, but this rewrite should fix #2 & #3 (especially #2), or what's the point? I think to accomplish #2 a dramatic reduction in tech/rules complexity would work (maybe set it in 3025 for a while?). For #3, dropping SP and doing everything in BV might help (I've had to carefully explain and re-explain the two point systems to several players).
-
I think BV is the way to go, the question is how much.
My unit is over 40K in BV with 7K SP available to spend...... but that is also 2 years of games & 2 full lances of salvage in there.
Taking skills & adjusting forces to hit BV size goals........ maybe 25K each to start?
And I encourage not spending it all at once & then not having enough to pick up a later unit that you realize you missed the first time around.
The only issue I see at present with using BV is having a skilled up pilot loose his ride & then get another ride for more BV than he started with.
Easy fix to that is if you are changing out pilots/rides that you have to replace with same or lesser BV ride. OR. You pay the difference for the skill up on the new ride.
Example in case that isn't clear.
500 BV L1 Light Mech + MW Hotrod. (2/4) = x161% = Cost 805 BV for mech + pilot.
Light Mech cored but HotRod ejected. Replacement Mech = DireWolf-Prime WARNING WARNING.
HotRod already being 2/4 would be a free skill up compared to hiring another warrior w/ the D-Wolf.
So either you pay the D-Wolf-Prime value at 2/4 ( minus the 305 you payed to skill up the Light Mech) or you put HotRod in the same mech he lost & get a different pilot for the D-Wolf.
-
I think the solution to the pilot problem is to go back to XP for improvement. Make 4/5 free, and each game give each participating pilot/crew/squad/platoon a point of XP, plus a "free XP" point that can go to anyone (call it simulator time).
Then it's just figuring out costs...
-
Which leaves people complaining about not having anything but 4/5.
Which lead to you giving out a trio of 3/4 last game.
And still people were going to 2 Gunners w/ TC quickly.
I say make them buy it with BV & if someone wants a 0/0 let them have it.
I like eating 0/0 for lunch on our tiny maps >:D
-
1. A BV target for the mission? I mean yes, of course they have to, otherwise the game is unbalanced towards the player with more BV.
2. So I have an idea, but it really depends on our Noble GM and his Unlimited Armies of DOOOOOM!
Split forces. Each player builds two forces, Offensive Line and Defensive Line. The two forces have to meet a certain combined BV threshold as well as fall within a certain range. These units deploy differently, OL deploys during the movement phase of Turn 1 as normal and their role is to move towards the primary objective and secure it. The DL deploys during the movement phase of turn 2-3 (depending on the scenario) and their job is to stop the opposing OL.
So if our BV Limit is 15,000 and the OL has to be 8,000-9,000 BV then the DL has to be between 6,000 and 7,000 BV. This can vary by scenario and mission. So if you have a Recon Mission, you might only get 5,000 BV (or less) but your opponent has an Assault Mission so you get 10,000 BV for your DL.
Where Joel comes in is the Defensive Line. Since he knows the scenarios beforehand he can bring some pre-generated Defensive Line forces for players who either don't have enough units, aren't confident in their force building skills, or think they need a hard counter for Hellraiser ;). From a fluff perspective the forces that Joel provides would be the regular forces from the organization that hired the Player's mercenaries.
This lets Joel ease the introduction of new players (he can over BV them if they're going up against a particularly tough veteran), give players who don't have good list building skills experience fielding forces that are both better (hopefully) and different than what they would have put together themselves and allows him to have list counters available if necessary.
With two forces per side and (theoretically) larger forces we'd probably want go up to larger sized maps.
3. I'm not really sure what's wrong with the current force creation rules, other than after a new player gets some experience they want to swap out their entire list... but that's not really force creation issues, it's lack of experience. Which is hopefully mitigated by #2.
-
Hellraiser -
For pilots, I'm thinking the pilot/crew comes with the mech/tank. If it's 3025, that's how it is -- a lot of the time mercs were pretty much contractors, and the individual mechwarriors where subcontractors who bring their own tools (the mech or the tank). Then cap it at 3/4, because anybody better wouldn't be hanging out with you. ;)
Kartr_Kana -
1. When it's Player-vs-GM you don't have to have a set BV, you just have to tell the GM so the OpFor matches. If I could find a way to get back to that, I would.
2. Despite what you may have heard, I have a life outside Battletech. :drool: Aside from the extra work for me, those are some pretty big games you're talking about. Testing would be required.
3. - The easy availability of clantech (no reason not to retrofit everything)
- The SP/BV thing being complex (you might not find it so, but as "tech support" I assure you it is)
- The very act of having to create, from scratch, several groups that all hit the BV target is a little intimidating to new players
I'm toying with dramatically reducing the whole "repairs" system. That reduces my role as Accountant-in-Chief, and also gives me more leverage to cap force sizes.
-
aren't confident in their force building skills, or think they need a hard counter for Hellraiser ;).
Honestly, I think 15K is going to be far too large a fight.
We don't have enough room to maneuver as it is & people are getting pounded by focused fire at close range.
Who knew that spending 30 minutes the weekend before the match to figure out what I want to bring the following week & figure out if I have access to that RS to print was overpowered & causing a strain.
I think my new method of force creation will be to random 2D6 some Intro Tech F-Grade RATs w/o consideration for what minis I own & have painted available for the game.
Sorry, that might have had some sarcasm in there.
I'm still trying to figure out how my force that didn't have 2-Gunners or Clan Tech was the problem child force.
Honestly I'll probably be skipping all the record keeping & customization in the future & just bring a different pregen force each time.
-
I'm still trying to figure out how my force that didn't have 2-Gunners or Clan Tech was the problem child force.
Not the, just one. Note that I've targeted clantech as something that needs serious restrictions. But to answer your question, semi-guided and HARM missiles. You have a great counter to all the 2-gunner clantech forces, and the counter for you (fast stuff) will get obliterated if they draw anybody but you.
-
Hellraiser -
For pilots, I'm thinking the pilot/crew comes with the mech/tank. If it's 3025, that's how it is -- a lot of the time mercs were pretty much contractors, and the individual mechwarriors where subcontractors who bring their own tools (the mech or the tank). Then cap it at 3/4, because anybody better wouldn't be hanging out with you. ;)
I'm toying with dramatically reducing the whole "repairs" system. That reduces my role as Accountant-in-Chief, and also gives me more leverage to cap force sizes.
I agree the Pilot/Crew comes with the vehicle.
My point about swapping was in using BV as the basic cash for this next system.
Advancing through experience v/s BV is still giving veterans the ability to field more/better pilots v/s a newcomer which I assume will be a problem.
Which is why I was saying people should be able to buy what they want so that even someone joining a year from now can buy a 2/4 Pilot instead of starting out with all 4/5 against someone elses 2 lances of 3/4's.
I think reduced repairs can only help so that when someone is blown out of their mech they don't loose 2K in $$ & fall behind.
-
semi-guided and HARM missiles.
What did you call it before? Perceived advantage?
I can't begin to say SG doesn't have uses.
But, 45 Tubes with a 4-Gunner isn't exactly the cat's meow in fire-support. I only fielded it maybe 5-6 times in 2 years.
HARM? I'm not sure what that is unless you mean ARAD, which I fired like 1-2 salvo of since TACOps rules were allowed 4 months ago.
I'm still having a hard time buying into SG being used 1 in 3-4? games as being game breaking compared to all the times I played w/o the tank.
-
Yeah, ARAD.
And yes, it's perceived advantage. The "OMG, how do I fight this?" factor that makes them think the game is over before it starts. Reducing the choices may handicap the better players some but I think overall it's good for the game. Battletech is, at its core, beer & pretzels. (If you want a more complex game, I can dig into my pile of historical rules...)
-
Is there a mission decided yet? Tech Range?
I'm voting for 4th SW, Wo39, or Clan Invasion........ basically before the tech explosion of 3060 Weapons.
Something w/ units from TROs 3025-3058
-
That's what I'm thinking, too. Start with 4th SW, and if things go well see about adding small amounts of advanced tech in 3039.
I'm working on an outline; I'll share it in a few days.
-
This is getting more complex than I'd hoped. In the meantime, this game will hopefully tide people over:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64824.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=64824.0)
-
FYI game today at 1pm!
-
Is there a date set for a game in May?
-
May 18th (two weeks). Posting the scenario is on my to-do list for today.
-
Doing a King of the Hill. I've had a couple of people request some sort of double-blind game, but I'll have to really sort out the use of blip counters before I try that.
-
Double blind is more of a at home thing or better yet on Mega Mek.
I think that might be very annoying to handle at a store with 4 separate games going on.
Not to say I don't like DB, I do, but just that it really is handled best by MM or with a 3rd party GM for every table.
-
I've done it once, and I'll never do it again. The simulated version where you use one map and each player has 2+ blips per unit sounds interesting.
-
Scenario 1 - Finders Keepers (Total Warfare)
Saturday, July 20
Game Depot AZ
3136 S McClintock Dr
Tempe, AZ 85282
Scenario 2 - ...It Simply Means the River Bends (Alpha Strike)
Saturday, Aug 3
Game Depot AZ
3136 S McClintock Dr
Tempe, AZ 85282
All minis, maps, terrain, and record sheets will be provided.