Author Topic: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles  (Read 12704 times)

RifleMech

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Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« on: 30 March 2019, 21:49:20 »
I have no idea why I never thought about this before but do the Clans use wet navy vehicles? If yes, are they SLDF vintage,  upgrades. newer Clan tech vehicles or a mix? Also who would crew the vehicles,  warriors, Solama , police?




Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #1 on: 30 March 2019, 21:54:30 »
I don't know if any homeworlds are water-rich, but surely many IS Clan-occupied worlds are.

Due to the non-expeditionary nature of water vessels, they'd probably be paramilitary and solhama use only.

As for what the boats would be: probably whatever was taken/ absorbed from the locals.  Probably a low priority to upgrade with clan-tech.
« Last Edit: 30 March 2019, 21:56:17 by Tai Dai Cultist »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #2 on: 30 March 2019, 22:01:24 »
i would assume yes, but only where required. we've been told of at least one homeworld where there are extensive subsurface aquatic facilities, which would pretty much require submarines and boats to defend. (same world is where the diving work exoskeletons that inspired the Elemental BA were extensively used, both world and exo's being mentioned in the Undine fluff)

we're also told of the world of Roche, where stars of submarines faced off as part of a trial where the Diamond Sharks fought foir (and won) the plans for the Undine BA from the Goliath Scorpions.
« Last Edit: 31 March 2019, 11:41:25 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #3 on: 30 March 2019, 22:51:57 »
TRO:Vehicle Annex Revised. P233

Atlaua Coastal Cutter:


Baleena IIC:

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #4 on: 30 March 2019, 23:18:04 »
I have no idea why I never thought about this before but do the Clans use wet navy vehicles? If yes, are they SLDF vintage,  upgrades. newer Clan tech vehicles or a mix? Also who would crew the vehicles,  warriors, Solama , police?

They have a very few mentioned by name and yes; as with other vehicles, principally crewed by Solahma.

I have two accounted for in my AU; so they were originally sourced from SOMEWHERE, but I have no idea where now.

One is a IIC-version of the Baleena and another is the Atlua coastal cutter.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #5 on: 31 March 2019, 01:10:52 »
The Pentagon Worlds have extensive ocean coverage.  Dagda specifically has installations, or atolls, as well as undersea mining.  If a wet navy would be anywhere, the Pentagon Worlds would be the place.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #6 on: 31 March 2019, 01:40:08 »
What's the source for the Baleena IIC please? Can't find it on the MUL nor on Sarna.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #7 on: 31 March 2019, 02:16:08 »
The Pentagon Worlds have extensive ocean coverage.  Dagda specifically has installations, or atolls, as well as undersea mining.  If a wet navy would be anywhere, the Pentagon Worlds would be the place.
That was the name i was trying to remember from the Undine fluff. My copy of FM:warden clans is buried, and sarna didnt include the name.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #8 on: 31 March 2019, 02:50:04 »
What's the source for the Baleena IIC please? Can't find it on the MUL nor on Sarna.

It is two posts before yours.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #9 on: 31 March 2019, 03:36:36 »
It is two posts before yours.
Thanks.  xp  (Sigh. Baby. Sleep deprivation.)
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RifleMech

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #10 on: 31 March 2019, 05:53:24 »
Thanks everyone! :)

So the Clans do use wet navy vehicles with solhama crews. It seems like Clan Goliath Scorpion is the main user of boats and subs although other clans do make use of some. It also seems like they make do with upgraded equipment. Which would kind of make sense since its such a small part of their military.

Is that about right?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #11 on: 31 March 2019, 10:30:51 »
IIRC there ws something in Wars of Reaving that the Sharks defending Paxton (?) where they activated like 10 Provisional Clusters there were some Naval Units to aid their Undine Battle Armor. I'm away from my books or I'd source it.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #12 on: 31 March 2019, 12:03:11 »
Imagine they might have Mauna Keas or Mantas, either original SLDF equipment or IICs, and maybe some homegrown designs.  This gives me some ideas...
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #13 on: 31 March 2019, 13:02:55 »
cleanup
« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:35:15 by Easy »

RifleMech

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #14 on: 31 March 2019, 21:38:31 »
I figured the SLDF would have taken boats and subs for expoloration, fishing, and such. And I can see the Clans keeping them for such purposes. I can see the SLDF bringing combat vessels in case of dragons and sea monsters. I can see the Clans defending their interests. I'm just not sure how. Most combat seems to take place on dry land. I guess that water combat happens more often than we hear about. I'd guess that the personnel would mostly be freebiths or Solhama?

I'm guessing most clans wouldn't invest in OMNI tech for their surface fleets?

Would the Clans use larger combat ships?  Presuming Kerensky brought any? Which I would think he would because they can operate for long periods. But would. the Clans use them or would they be,mothballed?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #15 on: 31 March 2019, 22:04:40 »
Didn't TRO 3055 Upgrade mention an underwater variant of the Peregrine?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #16 on: 31 March 2019, 23:37:55 »
IIRC there ws something in Wars of Reaving that the Sharks defending Paxton (?) where they activated like 10 Provisional Clusters there were some Naval Units to aid their Undine Battle Armor. I'm away from my books or I'd source it.

"Activated"? As with a reserve unit?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #17 on: 01 April 2019, 13:37:08 »
Between Undine suits and all the -U omnimech configs, its pretty clear they recognize the need to fight in the seas and oceans. From there its just a matter of typical Clan dislike of vehicles.
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RifleMech

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #18 on: 02 April 2019, 06:53:04 »
They recognize the need but how often did it happen and how did they carry it out? The Undine and U-OMNI Configs are relatively new.

For example, the year is 3030 and Clan Fluffy Bunny wants to take over Clan Goldfish's Island chain on Krypton.
What does Clan Goldfish defend with? What will Clan Fluffy Bunny's Commanders bid to take the Island Chain? 

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #19 on: 02 April 2019, 08:15:42 »
The thing to remember is that the Clans aren't stupid. They're very weird, and sometimes they do very stupid things, but they're not STUPID. The Omnimech is the pinnacle of a Clan warrior's possible equipment in-general, but they acknowledge the need for other, lesser units- thus standard Battlemechs, combat vehicles, even artillery (ewwwww). They may not LIKE using it, and it may be a stain on one's honor to be the one using it, but it still exists- because it has to. Not all situations call for an Omnimech solution, and there aren't enough of them to cover every job anyway.

Another thing to remember is that TROs tend to be comprehensive when it comes to Mechs and such, but it's not hard to imagine that there's a lot of solutions to problems that haven't made it to a TRO over the years- whether it's a one-off refit of a Mech on some backwater world, a specific upgrade to an assault tank to turn a particular one into a command vehicle, a few fighters modified by a merc unit to reduce ammo dependancy, a small production run of a light tank for a local militia... or a Clan naval unit.

So what would they look like, these 'unseen' naval craft? Would the Clans commit resources to refitting a Mauna Kea that came along on the Exodus? Would they produce new ones if they needed? Design something entirely new? (Not all worlds' oceans and seas are the same, so it stands to reason you'd build based on the conditions at-hand rather than commit to a cookie cutter approach). Maybe something larger, a Clan equivalent to the Jordmungand or something along those lines? (Again, if your world needs a hefty solution to waterborne problems...)

I know the 'if it works for your game...' answer sometimes rankles people, but it's true- if you want the Jade Falcons to have an aircraft carrier, go nuts and raise a green bird flag up the mast.  :thumbsup:
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #20 on: 02 April 2019, 08:36:29 »
Honestly, I could see some Clans building large ships, especially on worlds with a multi-Clan presence, or where the geography makes it easy for hidden Bandit ports to be set up. These vessels would likely be staffed by the lowest of the low in thewarrior caste(even police would see action more often), and equipped with crap guns(hey, a use for Improved ACs!), but they would still be able to deter ToPs for maritime goods either en route or in port.

Carriers are probably out because I can't see even the Cobras sinking the resources needed for one into what would still be a third-line unit, but corvettes or destroyers? That actually sounds rather plausible.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #21 on: 02 April 2019, 09:15:33 »
The Exodus featured three CAAN regiments, so they may use stock SL designs and antiques.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #22 on: 02 April 2019, 09:32:44 »
Arrr matie.  What be forces be ye defending yon undersea platform with?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #23 on: 02 April 2019, 09:59:06 »
cleanup
« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:32:15 by Easy »

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #24 on: 02 April 2019, 10:13:19 »
Perhaps other CAAN regiments chose to stay in the Inner Sphere.  I'm counting only three that chose to go with Kerensky to the wilds of the dark deep periphery.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #25 on: 02 April 2019, 10:29:38 »
cleanup
« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:22:33 by Easy »

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #26 on: 02 April 2019, 10:35:24 »
I know the 'if it works for your game...' answer sometimes rankles people, but it's true- if you want the Jade Falcons to have an aircraft carrier, go nuts and raise a green bird flag up the mast.  :thumbsup:

Found one for the Falcons . . . it just needs to be repainted . . .



side note- apparently a bunch of GI Joe cosplayers got together to go to one of the aircraft carrier museums and take staged pictures of the take over, Joe vs Cobra . . . pretty funny.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #27 on: 02 April 2019, 12:55:48 »
"Activated"? As with a reserve unit?

Possibly. The Sharks did use that "-1 testing" to keep extra warriors around.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #28 on: 02 April 2019, 16:46:04 »
Im sure if they did, its not huge like the ships in the Inner Sphere.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #29 on: 02 April 2019, 16:58:07 »
Im sure if they did, its not huge like the ships in the Inner Sphere.

Size is not as big a deal, the limitations with wet navy ships is crit space.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #30 on: 02 April 2019, 17:17:50 »
The Exodus featured three CAAN regiments, so they may use stock SL designs and antiques.

IIRC Op: KLONDIKE made at least one mention of the Pentagon Powers using Wet Navy ships
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #31 on: 02 April 2019, 19:53:11 »
I would think there would be freighters and tankers. Like the one from the TRO:VA the examples.  With that said it depends how often resources are trialed. I'd think they wouldn't involved them. It would trial them elsewhere where. I would think a coastal star would be using hovercraft if they were seaborne force with maybe point of conventional aircraft.  Submarines would be rare. I do remember reading mini subs being used but i don't remember.
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Jellico

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #32 on: 02 April 2019, 22:33:52 »
The advantage of naval units is combat persistence. They can stay on station a long time.

Now Battletech military operations are based on elite small units being dropped into targeted scenarios. Think precision bombing vs carpet.

This combat style does not suit blue navy ships. Ships are suited to policing work. The question then is how much hull you need to do your policing. It is hard to see a need for more than a 20K LHD type vessel. A 500 ton patrol boat is mostly adequate.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #33 on: 02 April 2019, 23:19:34 »
I've been looking all over Operation Klondike and so far I've found Hailes Commonwealth had 11 coastal cutters, one of which was sunk. Everything else is either infantry or mechs. At least that I can find.


In regards to the three CAAN regiments, is that a grand total of CAAN personel or three regiments plus an unknown number of battalions and companies?  It also does seem like much equipment survived the Pentagon wars survived with only 11 cutters (so far) in Klondike it doesn't seem like much CAAN equipment survived. Unless some were lost in a cache. (Maybe the same ones Wolf's Dragoons got their LAMs from?)

Even if most CAAN boats and subs survived in mothballs there doesn't seem to be a lot of equipment for the Clans. I would think that they would have to make new vehicles. I don't think they'd spend any more resources than necessary though. I think they might want some frigates or destroyers but I'm not sure about bigger. Although a carrier would be cool. I also don't think they'd have the latest equipment. I think they'd get hand me downs from other units. Depending on the Clan and their needs, I can easily see naval unit's best equipment being Improved weapons.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #34 on: 03 April 2019, 00:38:28 »
Yeah. The issue of three regiments being even able to cover the number of ships in the Exodus fleet remains, though. Are Fleet Marines, in other words, the contingent of Marines on each Warship and Transport, organically part of a CAAN unit attached to that ship or Fleet, or are they counted organically part of that ship's crew, don't wear CAAN patches and aren't really CAAN Marines at all? Would it be too much administrivia to keep a parallel Marine command operating companies of Fleet Marines all over the place?

This is obviously more like a narrative gap than a math problem. How many wet-navy vessels the Exodus fleet carried with them might depend a lot on the answers, though.

Warship Security/MP/Marines have nothing to do w/ CAAN Regiments.

CAAN units are designed for Island Hopping essentially & are deployed on Water Rich (Dominated) worlds.




As for the OP.

My guess is the Exodus probably had quite a few of those SLDF Subs with them.  (Manta & something else IIRC)  (~100-ish at least I would think so any clan could have a couple/few)

I'm not sure how many large tanker ships would have been taken as that is a HUGE ship to be placed inside a dropship for transport.   (Maybe 1-2 per clan tops in the beginning)

I very much doubt any major Carrier/Battleship sized Waterships were included at all, but, maybe something like the Silverback Cutter from TRO:VA IIRC.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #35 on: 03 April 2019, 00:43:05 »
IIRC Op: KLONDIKE made at least one mention of the Pentagon Powers using Wet Navy ships

The Goliath Scorpion section about Naomi Dejerassi single-handedly taking an atoll features small craft that took her and her team to the atoll.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #36 on: 03 April 2019, 01:16:38 »
Large ships mean large crews, like Warships.  And like those and conventional vehicles it's about fighting as a team.  For the individual oriented performance of the Clans that's not so desirable.

I would see more small trials taking place between Elementals on the deck of targeted transport vessels, or some version of safecon for islands or underwater facilities.  Where's the honor in hiding your forces somewhere an attacker can't even get to them?  Of course if a challenger *does* have the resources for naval or underwater combat, then game on.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #37 on: 03 April 2019, 06:26:07 »
Golden Century has Clan Mongoose defending their capital enclave I believe with wet navy ships.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #38 on: 03 April 2019, 08:02:48 »
The Goliath Scorpion section about Naomi Dejerassi single-handedly taking an atoll features small craft that took her and her team to the atoll.

The only thing that section says is that ocean going vessels known as atols where were floating islands were made. The Goliath Scorpions arrived at Kepler Atoll by shuttle. So the SDLFinE at least retained the ability to make ocean going mobile structures.


Large ships mean large crews, like Warships.  And like those and conventional vehicles it's about fighting as a team.  For the individual oriented performance of the Clans that's not so desirable.

I would see more small trials taking place between Elementals on the deck of targeted transport vessels, or some version of safecon for islands or underwater facilities.  Where's the honor in hiding your forces somewhere an attacker can't even get to them?  Of course if a challenger *does* have the resources for naval or underwater combat, then game on.


But Clans do use vehicles, some more enthusiastically then others. They also use warships and jumpships so crewing smaller ships shouldn't be a problem. Having them or not...?

The point of hiding your facilities is so you won't have to trial for them. If your enemies found out about it though you'd need to defend them. Using tactics and terrain to your advantage is a part of combat and I think all Clans understand that. I don't think putting a giant "Hit Me" sign out so they can see it is very honorable either. Of course they could always trial for a map to the base first.  ;)



Golden Century has Clan Mongoose defending their capital enclave I believe with wet navy ships.


Thanks. :) Unfortunately it doesn't say what those were. :(

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #39 on: 03 April 2019, 08:45:14 »
The point of hiding your facilities is so you won't have to trial for them. If your enemies found out about it though you'd need to defend them. Using tactics and terrain to your advantage is a part of combat and I think all Clans understand that. I don't think putting a giant "Hit Me" sign out so they can see it is very honorable either. Of course they could always trial for a map to the base first.  ;)

You don't have to hide a base to make it safe from Trials, just make it impractical to take with proportionate forces. Since an important base will have frontline forces sent after it, that means mechs. So if your base is underwater and below the crush depth for mechs(note that even small conventional subs can go much deeper than mechs quite safely), and give it a couple Morays, then you make it impractical for most Clan forces to attack, yet you can still make the base's location public and nobody can accuse you of keeping resources hidden.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #40 on: 04 April 2019, 04:50:57 »
You don't have to hide a base to make it safe from Trials, just make it impractical to take with proportionate forces. Since an important base will have frontline forces sent after it, that means mechs. So if your base is underwater and below the crush depth for mechs(note that even small conventional subs can go much deeper than mechs quite safely), and give it a couple Morays, then you make it impractical for most Clan forces to attack, yet you can still make the base's location public and nobody can accuse you of keeping resources hidden.

Didn't the Jade Falcons hide their LAM and other genetics experiments in a mountain facility for Falcon breeding?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #41 on: 04 April 2019, 08:23:50 »
It wasn't hidden, the Jaguars knew exactly where the facility was. Not knowing about a place and not caring about it are two very different things.

Not knowing what's going on inside said facility? That's 100% the Jaguars' fault.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #42 on: 04 April 2019, 23:37:10 »

Even if most CAAN boats and subs survived in mothballs there doesn't seem to be a lot of equipment for the Clans. I would think that they would have to make new vehicles. I don't think they'd spend any more resources than necessary though. I think they might want some frigates or destroyers but I'm not sure about bigger. Although a carrier would be cool. I also don't think they'd have the latest equipment. I think they'd get hand me downs from other units. Depending on the Clan and their needs, I can easily see naval unit's best equipment being Improved weapons.

We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #43 on: 05 April 2019, 06:00:30 »
We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.
I was under the impression that the force structured as highly mobile force which it move quickly and deal with most terrain challenges including water in particular.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #44 on: 05 April 2019, 06:05:37 »
That's a good summation as to CAAN capabilities. But that still doesn't answer what kind of equipment they tended to have.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #45 on: 05 April 2019, 06:27:58 »
It wasn't hidden, the Jaguars knew exactly where the facility was. Not knowing about a place and not caring about it are two very different things.

Not knowing what's going on inside said facility? That's 100% the Jaguars' fault.

They probably didn't care about a facility for breeding birds. Breeding cats though they might have paid more attention. Besides they'd already swiped all the mechs the Falcons had stored outside. Why pay more attention?



We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.

Going through Sarna I've got CAANs using armored vehicles BattleMechs, hovercraft, fighters, and blue-water warships. I could swear I read they also had LAMs. I would think that they also have infantry. Regiments seem to have specialties which include underwater combat, low gravity, underground combat, urban combat, and amphibious landings. So what is assigned to one regiment might not be whats assigned to another.

Other than that who knows?  How would larger warships fit into the regiment? Would they be individual units with 4 to a lance or would they be considered in the same way as dropships would for other units? Transportation and base of operations?  CAAN regiments do get reassigned so size would be a factor. Destroyers can be carried in a dropship but can any bigger ship?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #46 on: 05 April 2019, 06:54:14 »
I can only tell you what SLDF (original) house books said in CAAN (Combined Armor, Air, and Naval Regiment) origins which started in 2316 while part older Terran Hegemony (see pg 17). Initially they used Jump Troops and Hovercraft and had their own JumpShips. Like others said, House book was brief on their description aside from them employing, BattleMechs, tanks, hovercraft, fighters, and water warships. (SLDF p. 134) 

The Field Manual SLDF (p13) repeats this basic layout of the now Divisions, "Cavalry, armored, aerospace and naval regiments are trained in aquatic operations and are the only SLDF units with integral blue-water naval assets." The Regiments Special Abilities in the Rules Annex dues adds more, except that individual units are skilled in boarding dock or grapple.  There only quick mentioned of the CAAN in action in the Reunification War.

I do remember something too about them using LAMs, i may glanced through the books too quickly to catch it.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #47 on: 05 April 2019, 09:46:15 »
Based on that, I could see at least some of the Clans fielding hovercraft, Undines, plus a small contingent of ships and submarines as well.  But that's limited to Clans with interests that are ocean-bound, like the Goliath Scorpions or the Diamond Sharks. 
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #48 on: 05 April 2019, 10:17:58 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:18:22 by Easy »

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #49 on: 05 April 2019, 10:34:44 »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #50 on: 05 April 2019, 11:44:58 »
Based on that, I could see at least some of the Clans fielding hovercraft, Undines, plus a small contingent of ships and submarines as well.  But that's limited to Clans with interests that are ocean-bound, like the Goliath Scorpions or the Diamond Sharks.
Sea Foxes. I would think too.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #51 on: 05 April 2019, 15:33:18 »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #52 on: 05 April 2019, 16:19:16 »
You use any spheroid DropShip with sufficient cargo tonnage, and land it on land adjacent to water hexes. Unloading your large ship will takequite a while, but the moment it ceases to be cargo and becomes a unit it game terms, it begins play in those water hexes. Bingo, no need for landing ships in water, which is a VERY bad idea, by the way.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #53 on: 05 April 2019, 16:32:28 »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #54 on: 06 April 2019, 07:05:48 »
It occurs to me that what a CAAN brigade or regiment would really want is some sort of large Dropship that can land on water and deploy and recover vessels and boats and then take off again.

I am not up on what water landing rules are for large Dropships, or whether any of them would float, probably not.

snip

Rules for water landings are in Strategic Operations. I think Aerodynes can land in water okay but its riskier than landing on land. Spheroids though take damage when they take off again. Unloading boats and subs then becomes easier. The loading and unloading of ships though would be more complicated. The easiest way I can think of is to move the ship into a drydock with a trailer on the bottom. Water is removed and ship lands on the trailer. Then the trailer is moved onto the dropship. Unloading would be the reverse. Faster would be getting the dropship in to the water and floating the ship on and off. I'm not sure how to do that without damage. Landing on a submersible mobile structure maybe? Is that legal?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #55 on: 06 April 2019, 13:00:47 »
The Rapier Patrol Destroyer fluff mentions modified Mammoth dropships carrying two Rapiers in their cargo hold.
It would be a fitting quirk for the Mammoth to be excempt from water damage because of its engine pods being mounted high above the water line.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #56 on: 06 April 2019, 15:03:20 »
That's a good summation as to CAAN capabilities. But that still doesn't answer what kind of equipment they tended to have.
More than likely a lot of Hovercraft, WiGE vehicles and the like, it's unlikely that the SLDF would have invested in systems that are too big to comfortably dropship on a Lion class, with probably a stronger-than average combat drop capability and a heavier than normal air-wing.  (Naval line-of-battle seems kind of illogical when someone can drop a shot from orbit...)

what is very UNlikely is much in the way of submarine assets.  Such machines tend to be difficult to transport on a dropship, and relatively few worthwhile targets are located in deep water.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #57 on: 06 April 2019, 15:10:19 »
what is very UNlikely is much in the way of submarine assets.  Such machines tend to be difficult to transport on a dropship, and relatively few worthwhile targets are located in deep water.

And yet TRO3086Supp. says
Quote
the Manta and Moray [submarines] were jointly designed under contract to the SLDF for service in their CAAN regiments
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #58 on: 06 April 2019, 15:24:39 »
And yet TRO3086Supp. says


I didn't say "Wouldn't have any" I said there wouldn't be MUCH.  of course they're going to have SOME.  Now, as to whether they brought a whole bunch of them (Plus the tooling to make more) with them on Exodus?  depends more on whether or not the line developer gets really "Into" wet-naval warfare as a 'thing' (because the Clans always have to have the best of every class, even when it makes zero sense or requires a rules revamp for them to get it. it's a rule just like "you roll dice for initiative".)

more than likely you might see one to four of them even GOING on exodus, and that's as survey equipment.  (assuming Kerensky actually put thought into the idea of establishing his colonies rather than everyone starving to death in interstellar space.)

but it's vanishingly unlikely that the Clans would have a luftenberg-equivalent, or some of the larger wet-naval assets that the Davions like to use in heavy rotation, not when it's more 'efficient' to keep colonists near easily-obtained mineral deposits and fertile regions close to shore.  (particularly, easier to control your lower castes by limiting their movement to areas that favor your dominant unit types.)

Highly-centralized economies with strict caste systems don't tend to invest in situations where that control is put at risk-and an archipelago surrounded by deep water is easier to patrol with WiGE vehicles, than to control with v-hulls or catamarans, because the WiGE vehicles will be faster than anything they might be sent after, aren't hampered by dirt, sand bars, or submerged rocks, and can cover a larger area with fewer bodies more efficiently. 

Further, they might even CALL such vessels "Cutters" because that's the ROLE they play.  a fast, below-frigate littoral vessel for customs enforcement, close-to-shore search and rescue, and coastal law enforcement missions.

this isn't to say subs aren't present-they likely are, but large ones are going to be most likely absent, just on account of most Clan worlds have shallow (at best) seas, rather than extensive coverings of deep water, and most Clan facilities will be near the shore (for efficiency's sake).
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #59 on: 06 April 2019, 15:45:23 »
I was only talking about CAAN equipment, not clan subs.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #60 on: 06 April 2019, 17:15:22 »
I was only talking about CAAN equipment, not clan subs.

thing is, the same holds true for the Star League (tm).

the CAAN are structured as regiments, which is a formation that really works best with what kind of force?

I mean, figure this way: How many Regiments would you need to man a Nimitz-class carrier? this is a ship whose base crew is bigger than some Divisions, never mind the full carrier group (cruisers, destroyers and frigates) necessary to have a viable combat command.

This tends to suggest the CAAN units are mostly brownwater stuff, or Littoral units-relatively small (by comparison with modern naval requirements) equipment and units, mostly designed around patrol and enforcement (More a mix of Coast Guard and Marine Corps than an actual, blue-water navy).

That in turn suggests their equipment's going to be on the lighter side to start with, with an emphasis on fast reaction forces.  (Wiges and light gear) with very little investment in heavy duty blue-water equipment (the Manta is what, fifty tons?), with the biggest units probably being WiGEs to fill the transport/cutter role (large ones, using support vee rules) and an emphasis on air-power and rapid deployment. (after all, where are they going to be used?  we have DROPSHIPS now...)

this in turn suggests the Clans would not tend to evolve large, ocean going combat commands simply because what are they going to fight over?  where are they going to fight? whom are they going to fight? under what conditions would they need it? what kind of equipment would be suitable for those conditions?

we know a few things; shore bombardment is right out for at least a century.  Likewise for depth charges or nautical mines (because minefields are only useful if the enemy uses a lot of heavy shipping, duh...)

so it's likely that the MOST you'd see (going back to the original topic) is a few heavier WIGE type vessels (probably termed 'cutters' for the role) doing the coastal patrol route, some Mantas, and navalized armor suits with appropriate equipment.  because that's what they NEED given the hothouse nature of Clan warfare and their top-down system.  any larger naval threat would be handled by airpower except in the most unique of circumstances (in which case, that's why they kept the Manta around.)

the presence of a large planetary surface bound asset like a Luftenberg relies on a tech loss that makes wet naval units viable, and a population distribution that makes them viable and useful.  a planet with large oceans and a large population that's widely distributed and maybe not the most unified, for example.

such as Skye, or pre-McKenna Earth, but not the Clan homeworlds, where even with the population divided, ti's also small and dependent on fixed location resources.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #61 on: 06 April 2019, 20:11:59 »
Question...  What does CAAN actually stand for?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #62 on: 06 April 2019, 20:40:02 »


This tends to suggest the CAAN units are mostly brownwater stuff, or Littoral units-relatively small (by comparison with modern naval requirements) equipment and units, mostly designed around patrol and enforcement (More a mix of Coast Guard and Marine Corps than an actual, blue-water navy).


Except that the canon text specifies "Blue Water" which, if it has the same meaning in the BTU as it does in real life means; ocean-going large vessels.

Also; the crew requirements are not the simple indicators of unit size we might like; really there is no need for there to be a close relationship between the name of a given organization and it's size or combat power. As a practical matter; it really has more to do with tradition than anything else.

The real size-limitations would have more to do with the largest extant dropships of the day and their greatest allowable cargobay mass and the overall dimensions of the ship(s) in question.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #63 on: 06 April 2019, 20:48:10 »
Bottom line is that we don't have a lot of canon data on the OP.

Likely; the Clans would have a few stars total of littoral and riverine fighting ships; mainly for soverignty preservation and bandit/pirate hunting on worlds in which they have coastal territory. In addition; if they have underwater installations; I would expect again; a few stars *total* across an entire clan of submersibles; either SLDF leftovers/reproductions/IICs or tailored designs which can calso carry cargo and battle armour.

Any/all of these vessels might indeed fall under the Clan's Policing/Security Demicaste and their missions might also include watch work doing survielance/reconnisance/surveying missions.

I too would expect large vessels inthe capital range to be vanishingly rare or non-existant and one-off ships in the frigate-cruiser range to be uncommon, but not unknown. Almost everything would be old, cheap and poorly maintained, unless it had just come into service to replace something else.

An exception might be vessels serving or doubling in the PTS defence role with appropriate capital/sub-cap weapons.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #64 on: 06 April 2019, 21:10:08 »
To put it down on paper; i can see a given Clan`s Water World complement to look something like this;

Naval HQ Star Alpha

-Point 1
one-off Light Cruiser or fast/small command suitable carrier (not converted from a frieghter).
one-off light carrier converted on the slips from a frieghter (Conv AC come from another organization, likely spends most of it's time laid-up, if it exists at all)
-Point 2
Small-Class Assault Ship #1 (These probably rely on Super-Heavy Buffalo-like hovercraft for ship-to-shore, but can nose-in with a ramp to land mechs or ground vehicles and infantry)
Small-Class Assault Ship #2
-Point 3
Tanker/Tender #1
Tanker/Tender #2
-Point 4
SupVee-scale Sub with capital/subcapital missiles (one-off/SLDF leftover)
Escort sub 100-150t range
-Point 5
Surface Escort 75-10,000t range
Surface Escort 75-10,000t range

Naval Patrol Nova Beta

-Point 1
Blue Water Patrol Craft 1000-5000t range
Blue Water Patrol Craft 1000-5000t range
-Point 2
Blue Water Patrol Craft 1000-5000t range
Blue Water Patrol Craft 1000-5000t range
-Point 3
Littoral patrol craft 75-1500t range
Littoral patrol craft 75-1500t range
-Point 4
Littoral patrol craft 75-1500t range
Littoral patrol craft 75-1500t range
-Point 5
Large Hydrofoil Patrol Craft
Large Hydrofoil Patrol Craft
+5 Points of Jump Infantry (But extra capacity to haul additional Solahma stars of BA and leg infantry)

Reserve Naval Star Gamma

-point 1
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
-point 2
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
-point 3
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
Riverine patrol/combat vessel 20-100+ tons
-Point 4
Multirole/Patrol Sub 50-150t
Multirole/Patrol Sub 50-150t
-Point 5
Multirole/Patrol Sub 50-150t
Multirole/Patrol Sub 50-150t

Some caveats;

-think small-run classes of ship, common across many Clans
-figure on additional PGC/solahma/police troops which would be available or even accustomed to working with these assets regularly
-this is just a get-the-idea, but figure on a larger force duplicating Stars Beta and Gamma; ie/ more patrol assets and not another large frigate/light cruiser flag/command ship or carriers. In a smaller force; Alpha probably gets burned first.
-it's pretty easy, if you want; to rapidly convert frieghters to light/assault carriers if you really really needed to and even to convert back later.
-realistically; you'd need a lot more than this to manage even a moderate ammount of coastline or ocean/inland sea/great lake on a world with casually hostile neighbours. This is why the Clans have never gotten rid of the Dark caste.
-Figure on supplmenting all this with dollops of water-world/3rd-world-style naval mech/motorised infantry.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #65 on: 06 April 2019, 22:40:06 »
The Rapier Patrol Destroyer fluff mentions modified Mammoth dropships carrying two Rapiers in their cargo hold.
It would be a fitting quirk for the Mammoth to be excempt from water damage because of its engine pods being mounted high above the water line.

I'd be open to giving it an amphibious landing quirk.


And yet TRO3086Supp. says

Actual CAAN units  :)

Would a regiment be assigned to a landing craft or the landing craft to the regiment?  BT often lists dropship as a transport lance. Would blue navy ships follow that?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #66 on: 06 April 2019, 23:01:06 »
I'm curious.  What percentage of a Clan naval vessel's crew do you think would be lower caste?  Medical would be Scientists, Techs would probably run engineering, and there'd probably be a Merchant quartermaster and some laborers doing cleaning and mess duty, right?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #67 on: 06 April 2019, 23:37:03 »
That'd be my guess. Isn't that what the Clans do on their space warships?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #68 on: 07 April 2019, 02:01:18 »
I mean, figure this way: How many Regiments would you need to man a Nimitz-class carrier? this is a ship whose base crew is bigger than some Divisions, never mind the full carrier group (cruisers, destroyers and frigates) necessary to have a viable combat command.

This tends to suggest the CAAN units are mostly brownwater stuff, or Littoral units-relatively small (by comparison with modern naval requirements) equipment and units, mostly designed around patrol and enforcement (More a mix of Coast Guard and Marine Corps than an actual, blue-water navy).

For a BT style Nimitz carrier?  A crew of 322, not including embarked pilots or techs, or crews for hovercraft or small boats like Monitors.  Which means its more like a 4 company battalion.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Luftenburg

For the mentioned pair of destroyers carried in a Mammoth?  Each ship crews around 120 not including jump infantry assets, so the pair of destroyers works out to one battalion . . .

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rapier_(Patrol_Destroyer)

Which means a SLDF CAAN Division could field a single 'regiment' that was a carrier and four escorting destroyers.  Then a regiment of marines, air regiment operating off the carrier & island bases, and finally maybe a mixed regiment of small patrol ships, subs, and base operators.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #69 on: 07 April 2019, 03:49:24 »
For a BT style Nimitz carrier?  A crew of 322, not including embarked pilots or techs, or crews for hovercraft or small boats like Monitors.  Which means its more like a 4 company battalion.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Luftenburg

For the mentioned pair of destroyers carried in a Mammoth?  Each ship crews around 120 not including jump infantry assets, so the pair of destroyers works out to one battalion . . .

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rapier_(Patrol_Destroyer)

Which means a SLDF CAAN Division could field a single 'regiment' that was a carrier and four escorting destroyers.  Then a regiment of marines, air regiment operating off the carrier & island bases, and finally maybe a mixed regiment of small patrol ships, subs, and base operators.

and how are you going to TRANSPORT that?  you also need to account for the shipyard equipment to reassemble it on the target planet, because that's boat you can land dropships on (and you'll need to transport that shipyard equipment, because ti probably isn't going to be there unless you're occupying New Avalon, or Donegal or somewhere with enough large, heavy industry to assemble it.)

"They don't make dropships that big."

and there's no strategic or tactical purpose for the SLDF to have, much less field, such units.  Remember, during the Star League, the Terran Hegemony had a massive tech edge, and nobody had yet fallen back to the point that even poor planets lacked satellite coverage, viable airfields, and nobody was building deep undersea colonies.

Large seagoing combat vessels in the BTU of that period would be hobbyist vanity projects.  it's ridiculously easy to track something large moving through water even in the present day-look for wakes and you've got the ship's course and heading.

look at the situation as if you, yourself, were responsible for accounting for the funds (which are not unlimited and must support a force deployed over multiple star systems)

The odds favor those funds going to more Battlemech regiments and supporting assets, or more black-navy ships, or more dropships that can carry more generalized forces.

leaving the "navy" (wet navy) as somewhat underfunded-this is relative, of course, but the direction would be toward deployable, multi-use forces that can be placed relatively quickly.  likely a heavy reliance on aerospace and WiGE units, and units that fit a standard military dropship.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #70 on: 07 April 2019, 09:42:57 »
Question...  What does CAAN actually stand for?


Combined Armor, Air, & Naval

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #71 on: 07 April 2019, 11:21:00 »
and how are you going to TRANSPORT that?  you also need to account for the shipyard equipment to reassemble it on the target planet, because that's boat you can land dropships on (and you'll need to transport that shipyard equipment, because ti probably isn't going to be there unless you're occupying New Avalon, or Donegal or somewhere with enough large, heavy industry to assemble it.)

"They don't make dropships that big."

and there's no strategic or tactical purpose for the SLDF to have, much less field, such units.  Remember, during the Star League, the Terran Hegemony had a massive tech edge, and nobody had yet fallen back to the point that even poor planets lacked satellite coverage, viable airfields, and nobody was building deep undersea colonies.

Large seagoing combat vessels in the BTU of that period would be hobbyist vanity projects.  it's ridiculously easy to track something large moving through water even in the present day-look for wakes and you've got the ship's course and heading.

look at the situation as if you, yourself, were responsible for accounting for the funds (which are not unlimited and must support a force deployed over multiple star systems)

The odds favor those funds going to more Battlemech regiments and supporting assets, or more black-navy ships, or more dropships that can carry more generalized forces.

leaving the "navy" (wet navy) as somewhat underfunded-this is relative, of course, but the direction would be toward deployable, multi-use forces that can be placed relatively quickly.  likely a heavy reliance on aerospace and WiGE units, and units that fit a standard military dropship.

Well; like I said above: I think the max size of the ships in a CAAN would be dictated by the largest landing-capable dropships of the era.

Unless or until we get real details on the CAANs; we won't know anything more for sure.

All we really know is that the CAANs did have blue-water assets; as laid out in Canon, but what that really means in practice, we do not know. Maybe in the BTU; it just means "Not Black-Water, ie/Space".

In terms of budget; I put nothing past the SLDF/Hegemony. Once you have a black navy fleet of HUNDREDS of battleships; what is a couple trillion in niche bluewater warships anyways?

For myself; what I am picturing is a very large organization; 4-5 ""III"-sized subunits or MORE with a little bit of everything thrown in.

Amphibious wheel and track
Marine Infantry (1Bn Minimum, plus Spec Ops and a Para Company)
Hover
WIGE
VTOL
Conv AC
ASF
Mechs to include LAMs
and large and small naval vessels of all types.

I further expect that Some CAANs would be optimized for different environments; hostile as well as Riverine. Possibly there would even be a CAAN variant for Blue Water, Littoral (Green Water) AND Riverine warfare.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #72 on: 07 April 2019, 11:33:20 »
The Lyrans transported several Lufts to other planets from where they were built as you mentioned likely in sections.  The Rapiers were moved whole and launched from the special Mammoth- and that was during the Succession Wars.

I never said this was for a easily deployable CAAN, merely that if it were being slugged into a TO&E how it could fit defensively.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #73 on: 07 April 2019, 11:38:40 »
All of the CAAN regiments were royal.  So we can.conclude they had cutting edge tech.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #74 on: 07 April 2019, 13:10:13 »
All of the CAAN regiments were royal.  So we can.conclude they had cutting edge tech.

"Cutting edge" is the point.  How were wars being fought in the Star League era? what was the emphasis? 

Combined Armor, Air, & Naval



so what does that translate to?  look at teh order.

Combined

Armor: we have units like the Prowler, (amphib tank), a multitude of hovertank types (just peruse every TRO since 3025, plus the 2750), we've had WiGE added to the game and support vees, and some of the canon WiGEs would certainly fill the same roles that a fast cutter would fill, plus being very well adapted to a navalised role by the basic construction rules.

Air:  integrated air assets seems likely, but those can be run from ground bases, or dropships just as easily (perhaps more easily) and at less cost than building a fleet of carriers that are largely non-portable, highly vulnerable, and relatively slow.

Naval: so far, we have a single Naval unit of the right vintage-and it's basically a submersible tank that weighs in at a whopping fifty tons, and was also clearly built for a very specific, narrow purpose. 

For Dropships, we don't really have a canon "Modified Mammoth" of the right vintage to haul anything bigger-the Davions have one, but it post-dates the collapse of the Star League, and the Lyrans may have built larger wet-naval vessels, but those are shipped in sections as cargo and take quite a bit of time to assemble at the destination.

Two CAAN regiments accompanied Kerensky on the Exodus.  I submit to you, that these were probably (Likely) to be units whose largest bit of kit, was a large WiGE designed witht he capability to drop  or service medium-sized vehicles, accompanied by their integral air-wing which was likely to be land-based, and their armor formation, which was probably units made up of Prowlers and hovercraft. 

This would cover the primary duties of a CAAN formation (enforcement and defense in littoral areas). what would be missing, would be the large wet-naval units they really don't have any need to possess or strategic value in the Star League era.

Technically, this would, indeed be a 'blue water' force-but the blue waters involved would be close to land, because that's where everything it might be useful to guard with naval forces would be located in the Star League era (with some operations conducting interdiction and putting the boot to the neck of swampies and coastal hillbillies, drug enforcement, and Search and Rescue.)

one of the reasons the Lyrans never built more than 13 Luftenbergs, is that they're really not very good or useful war machines, but they do cost a lot of capital for exceedingly narrow and hampered capability.

essentially, they're yachts for noblemen you want to keep away from the front while still letting them claim combat command status.  at best they're impressive to a coastal raiding force, and can certainly lob shells 25 kilometers inland, but that's not very far, and being as they are floating on a hostile environment, they're exceedingly vulnerable to attack from above.

oh, and sinking.

the SLDF seems unlikely to invest significant resources into a program of building surface naval ships, an the Clans even less so.  the term "CAAN", when broken down, suggests a mobile strike arm, more akin to an actual Marine combat command in layout and structure, which precludes them from being a static emplacement (which by the definitions of interstellar war, large naval vessels would be), but with a specialist mission (land on the water part of a water world, and go a-viking on offense, conduct maritime surveillance and coastal interdiction while on defense).

these suggest a premium on mobility.  (supported by the Manta's stats, combat power was sacrificed for speed).

this premium on mobility fits well with Clan tactical thinking as well.  (even the Star Adders tend to field somewhat quicker designs than their proposed inner sphere opponents in any given weight class or by firepower).

Large WiGE vehicles deploying on combat drops makes sense, as does a force organized around marine landings with dropships.  the available dropships fit this doctrine, and it's a doctrine that is likely to work in the Star League era and during teh Klondike era and golden century, because doctrine influences engineering.  Clan doctrine doesn't run in directions that would favour large wet-naval assets, and when they do make wet naval assets, they'd be likely to focus on systems that fit with some agreed upon methodology of warfare.

hence, the various suits derived for undersea mining that branched out into the Elemental, Undine and other armors, the attempts to develop undersea 'mechs (The Peregrine's peculiar armor configuration), and a heavy emphasis on hover and air vehicles, with some remnant use of existing, proven League era designed (and most likely Wing in Ground Effect type) 'cutters' being the largest units built-because they're barely portable and most of the seas are shallow in the Clan worlds.

WiGE vehicles, you see, can outrun weather systems.  large hulls really can't.

of course, now that I've said all that, they're going to drop a bunch of world war ii dreadnoughts and supercarriers on us all in the fiction, just wait, you'll see...
« Last Edit: 07 April 2019, 13:27:46 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #75 on: 07 April 2019, 13:27:28 »
Except we also know CAANs occupied and defended coastal/underwater Castle Brians.  Long/well enough to welcome back Kerensky when his forces returned after Aramis did his thing.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #76 on: 07 April 2019, 15:49:04 »
"Cutting edge" is the point.  How were wars being fought in the Star League era? what was the emphasis? 

So first of all; the Hegemony and later SLDF fought literally every kind of war; the very fact that the CAANs and a dedicated sub-organization to train, support and supply them existed establishes that combat in settings other than land-locked areas and high atmosphere was an important and re-occuring theme.

Two CAAN regiments accompanied Kerensky on the Exodus.  I submit to you, that these were probably (Likely) to be units whose largest bit of kit, was a large WiGE designed witht he capability to drop  or service medium-sized vehicles, accompanied by their integral air-wing which was likely to be land-based, and their armor formation, which was probably units made up of Prowlers and hovercraft. 


I submit to you that your assertion is possible. It is equally possible that the two fully-formed CAANs showed up for exodus alongside various odds and ends either with or without any or all of their equipment. It is additionally possible that the SLDF took various large naval vessels with them, ready to go and in kit-form, with and without surviving crews, just in case.

We are sadly limited by about 100 tons or more in the size of the WiGE we can build and this limits their capabilities. I personally think this should be errata'd to 500 tons. I am unaware of any capability to "Drop" WiGE larger than 100 tons.

This would cover the primary duties of a CAAN formation (enforcement and defense in littoral areas). what would be missing, would be the large wet-naval units they really don't have any need to possess or strategic value in the Star League era.

This is an assertion without substantiation. I can see a lot of use for large naval vessels in the SLDF-era and beyond for all powers. Even the rather fragile things we can make in the current rules are tough enough for most purposes and can mount heavy firepower and serve as barracks, berths and mobile support without risking dropships that can land on water, but don't like it.

Technically, this would, indeed be a 'blue water' force-but the blue waters involved would be close to land, because that's where everything it might be useful to guard with naval forces would be located in the Star League era (with some operations conducting interdiction and putting the boot to the neck of swampies and coastal hillbillies, drug enforcement, and Search and Rescue.)

This is tricky. We do not know what "Blue-Water" really means in the BTU. It's never been canonically defined as having any limited definition. What we do have are the modern naval doctrines which establish that "Blue Water" in our world does not mean what you think it does; specifically over-the-horizon and outside what we now think of as "territorial waters". TPTB could well say that it specifically means "not-space". While it's been used that way, we do not know if that is *all* that it means. Especially when applied to what well may be a "Blue Water" Naval Specialist unit.


[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green-water_navy]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-water_navy[url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green-water_navy

[/url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown-water_navy[/url]

These are all terms that have specific meanings IRL. Unless or until TPTB establish further clarity on the subject of CAANs, we won't know.

the SLDF seems unlikely to invest significant resources into a program of building surface naval ships, an the Clans even less so.  the term "CAAN", when broken down, suggests a mobile strike arm, more akin to an actual Marine combat command in layout and structure, which precludes them from being a static emplacement (which by the definitions of interstellar war, large naval vessels would be), but with a specialist mission (land on the water part of a water world, and go a-viking on offense, conduct maritime surveillance and coastal interdiction while on defense).

The SLDF are the same people who brought us all manner of cool nonsense. I would rule nothing out. The Clans; you are probably right; but they don't care for anything that is not Mechs, ASF or Elementals. Thus my model of about 3 stars *per Clan* of wet naval forces. But a CAAN could be as easily a mobile defensive force, tailored to a given world, or a dedicated antiguerilla force. You tailor your doctrine to the situation and your tools to both.

WiGE vehicles, you see, can outrun weather systems.  large hulls really can't.

Large Hulls don't really *have to* outrun weather systems, especially if they are Subs; whereas a WIGE would *need to* get away or under cover, just the same as VTOLs or Fixed-Wing would. In fact; the larger the hull, as a rule; the easier time it has weathering a storm (at least to a point), thus the term.

of course, now that I've said all that, they're going to drop a bunch of world war ii dreadnoughts and supercarriers on us all in the fiction, just wait, you'll see...

Man, I hope so! And some serious rules errata on Naval SupVees. Ours seem to have been laid out as per warships of the last 60 years, which are virtually naked of any passive protection. Whereas the principle value of a real battleship was always it's portection and defence in depth.

We also need free heat-dissipation that increases with displacement and if someone develops SF-tech super conductors we can bleed heat directly into the water and reduce damage from laser weapons and flamers!

I think that, overall; the CAANs likely had access to several classes of ship that would, like a Rapier; fit inside a Mammoth. Landing droppers on water is uncomfortable, dangerous and tricky; but if you can't take a joke, then why did you join the navy? I'd not *leave them there* like the GDL was forced to; but once on-world they could be replaced as bases and barracks by the ships they dropped off. While we're mucking about with Mammoths, we could even use a modified Mammoth as a landable assembly point/slipway for laregr ship sections as well. Probably need about a Bn of Engineers with heavy equipment working around the clock to make a launch ramp; but maybe not if we're the SLDF and we can build mobile ship-launching SupVees.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #77 on: 07 April 2019, 16:26:18 »
Except we also know CAANs occupied and defended coastal/underwater Castle Brians.  Long/well enough to welcome back Kerensky when his forces returned after Aramis did his thing.

How hard would that be though?  if the installation's close enough to the surface to use 'mechs, then it's not going to need significant ships, if it's deep enough to require submersibles, it's going to be easily cut off and forces aren't really necessary to retake it, so much as having a squadron with depth charges available to nail anyone dumb enough to leave.

this is the problem with your underwater installation-water disrupts radio, which means it can be cut off from communication, it's harder to move through than vacuum, and exerts crushing pressure at depth, making it easily cut off from resupply, and hard to sally from since sound travels much, much better in water, than on land, making stealthy exits questionable at best.

an underwater 'castle' can be held indefinitely-if it's not worth taking in the first place.

which is really the problem with fortress strategies to begin with-the defender loses all initiative and must rely on outside forces to lift the siege before he or she runs out of food or fresh water, and maintaining a siege in this case would be simplicity itself-if the fortress is close enough for 'mechs, then it's close enough for 'mech forces to take, and if it's deep enough to require submersibles, it's easily cut off (actually relatively easy to cut off either way.)  Position a small blocking force of appropriate composition, and those regiments are stuck in a situation where they have neither the initiative (meaning the enemy knows exactly where they have to go to exit and can prepare a killing box), nor the ability to act outside the castle.  (it's cut off from the rest of the planet, making it effectively a non-problem, since taking action independently simply gets loyalist troops killed.)

in such a situation, the CAAN regiments have effectively sealed themselves in their very own custom POW detention facility, one without external supply and no means to impact the progress of the war outside.

remember, the strongest prison has the locks on the INSIDE of the door.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #78 on: 07 April 2019, 18:19:42 »
cleanup
« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:12:16 by Easy »

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #79 on: 07 April 2019, 21:01:54 »
If the CAAN's fortress is a hole in the ground with a warship grade manhole cover for a roof, sure. If it's not, if it's located near an important asset, like a factory, or a city, or the Panama Canal, or Gibraltar, or the Strait of Hormuz, or on a mountain top, where they can observe things for long distances, use long-range artillery to deny the enemy freedom of movement and other supply blocking dynamics, participate in the communications war and offer moral and intelligence support to friendlies running around in the woods, then there are plenty of reasons to build a fortress. This is outside the scope of the OP, however, and deserves a separate topic, which I would be happy to participate in.

Mountain tops are out of the scope, unless they went inland (in which case they're even MORE dependent on regular equipment like tanks and 'mechs and LESS invested in wt naval vessels).  Factory is the same thing-withdraw the support infrastructure and the factory will be a ghost town and it might not even hurt production that much in 2766.  Panama Canal zone or Straits of Hormuz are both locations that pin a naval force in place and can be turned into a box canyon/killing box for the defenders.  This is a madman who had zero issues using nukes during his takeover, meaning that essentially, that fortress becomes a ready made detention facility and tomb, depending on whether he wants to spend time reducing it to the Keep or not. 

see, there's this trick where you cover the exits with quick-setting concrete after sniping the gun emplacements...

which can be done using math, at a safe distance, because guess wehre the details on those brian forts are stored?

in siege warfare, you only need to contain the enemy, and that's a much easier job if you remember the basic rule of fortified positions:

"If you make it too hard to get in, you can't get out."

Thus how there could be whole divisions inside the Amaris Empire that had zero impact on the war in spite of being very close indeed to critical points that could have ended it quickly and much more cleanly.

A brian fort is basically a bunker complex.  Cover the exits, knock out active sensors and antennas, and it's just an armored box.  (this can be done with a broad and dare I say dizzying array of options-just out of the stock designs available at the time.)

The troops within are there to wait for rescue.  That's how fortresses work.

There are only two reasons to devote the resources to reduce it and take it-either (a) it contains something critical that your side needs and can't get cheaper or easier somewhere else, or (b) you're short of manpower and can't afford the troops to keep it contained, in which case you're not waging a siege, but an extended raid, because you don't have the forces to keep the enemy bottled in on their own.

Amaris let those brian forts stand, in loyalist hands, which suggests strongly that they weren't worth the resources to storm.  This in turn means they're NOT sitting on critical, can't-live-without-it infrastructure.  What you do as Amaris, is rotate training units under supervision to maintain the quarantine after destroying the base's ability to communicate (not hard, nail the antennae and seal the entrances) and let the SLDF hold-outs train your green troops for you-as live fire range targets, with a backup of veterans to deal with any actual attempts at breakout.

see the situation now?  an Elite force CAN be pinned down by recruits, if their position is thoroughly compromised, and it's guaranteed those positions came pre-compromised shortly before the coup.

The heroic myth of the Bastion is just that-a myth.  This is why cities stopped building walls around themselves-because a walled in city is a killing box, and a fortress is only good so long as it can pin down the enemy's stronger forces long enough to be relieved.  aka the Maginot line wouldn't have worked in 1914 any better than it worked in 1939, and Brian forts are nothing but a hyped up version of the same concept.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #80 on: 07 April 2019, 21:36:28 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:12:35 by Easy »

RifleMech

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #81 on: 07 April 2019, 23:27:40 »
I don't know why the SLDF wouldn't have dropships to carry large ships and subs in. Not just for military but civilian needs as well. Larger is more stable and has greater endurance. They can also provide the infrastructure needed to construct facilities on the island. Something you can't do if the dropship is parked on it.

Having subs is also important for exploration, collection of resources, and recovery of other sunken units.

Why not mountaintops? Islands have mountains. Some of the fiercest fighting, in history has been to take island mountain fortresses.

Can an underwater base even be attacked from orbit? I also don't see a worry if the base is close enough for mechs to walk to. They, and presuming other attackers, are going to have less endurance than the defenders. They'll use some up just getting there and will need to keep some in reserve to get back. That limits their combat endurance.
Like another famous battle involving an island nation defended by aircraft.

As for their TO@E. CAANs could use large fixed wing aircraft for patrols. They could also use airships for long range patrols.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #82 on: 08 April 2019, 02:50:29 »
I don't know why the SLDF wouldn't have dropships to carry large ships and subs in. Not just for military but civilian needs as well. Larger is more stable and has greater endurance. They can also provide the infrastructure needed to construct facilities on the island. Something you can't do if the dropship is parked on it.

Having subs is also important for exploration, collection of resources, and recovery of other sunken units.

Why not mountaintops? Islands have mountains. Some of the fiercest fighting, in history has been to take island mountain fortresses.

Can an underwater base even be attacked from orbit? I also don't see a worry if the base is close enough for mechs to walk to. They, and presuming other attackers, are going to have less endurance than the defenders. They'll use some up just getting there and will need to keep some in reserve to get back. That limits their combat endurance.
Like another famous battle involving an island nation defended by aircraft.

As for their TO@E. CAANs could use large fixed wing aircraft for patrols. They could also use airships for long range patrols.

IF those units were militarily viable, and IF they were technically sound, and IF they could be used reliably.

at the moment, we know the SLDF didn't have those kind of dropships. Until a TRO pumps one out, they will continue to not have them.

one of the things they would require, is a navalization feature for dropships of that size, and consider that a ship big enough to deploy a Luftenberg is going to be as big as the Warship it's docked to.

maybe in some cases bigger.

Keeping that in mind, wouldn't it make more sense to just make your dropship water-landing capable and use it?  (thus being able to redeploy at a moment's notice after recovering your transported vehicle assets?)

and wouldn't it make more sense to use dedicated research subs for submarine research, and dedicated salvage tugs for salvage work, than trying to do all of it AND shoot at...nonexisting bad guys?

there's no MISSION for a large deepwater navy in the Star League, and LESS mission for it on the Clan Homeworlds, and the expense of supporting one is hideously expensive, even by SLDF standards.

esp. when you're only going to get around 5% of your worlds with it, because the rest don't have the right kind of bodies of water. (check the tables sometime.)

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #83 on: 08 April 2019, 05:40:41 »
Fluff for the Triumph Class DropShip says (this prior to the rules clarifying how DropShips interact with water) that they were utilized to drop naval combat vehicles (like the Neptune, stuff fits in a Vehicle Bay) for water vehicle deployment.  The apparently a unpublished fluff variants (modified) to launch naval vehicles was used.  If you want keep TRO:3057 Revised as valid source. (p. 46).

Hopefully they can. Without it you'd have use cargo for everything to transport anything that sails.

I'd imagine the Clans that have some need to deploy combat vehicles that exclusively operate on the water, would use such a dropship.  Given how rarely, they would be use on a raid or Trial of Possession, i'd think they just stash them as cargo because its not big stompy Mech.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #84 on: 08 April 2019, 06:56:29 »
Two things:

1: Check FM:SLDF. The League fought everybody, in every kind of war possible. They fought House forces. They fought Amaris forces. They fought page forces. They fought "pirate" forces. They fought Periphery forces. These engagements ranged from minor police actions all the way up to multi-divisional engagements.

2: No specialized DropShips are needed to carry naval vessels. A ship can land on(or taxi to) any patch of land that is adjacent to sufficiently deep water, and deploy a boat directly, without ever getting its gear wet. Yes, not all worlds/theaters have such convenient ports. Identifying problems like that and solving them are why generals exist. They either get the port built, deploy the ships from further away, or decide not to deploy them at all. Making decisions like that is literally a general's job.

There. Now some actual debate can happen. You're welcome folks, carry on.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #85 on: 08 April 2019, 09:27:40 »
IF those units were militarily viable, and IF they were technically sound, and IF they could be used reliably.

at the moment, we know the SLDF didn't have those kind of dropships. Until a TRO pumps one out, they will continue to not have them.

one of the things they would require, is a navalization feature for dropships of that size, and consider that a ship big enough to deploy a Luftenberg is going to be as big as the Warship it's docked to.

maybe in some cases bigger.

Keeping that in mind, wouldn't it make more sense to just make your dropship water-landing capable and use it?  (thus being able to redeploy at a moment's notice after recovering your transported vehicle assets?)

and wouldn't it make more sense to use dedicated research subs for submarine research, and dedicated salvage tugs for salvage work, than trying to do all of it AND shoot at...nonexisting bad guys?

there's no MISSION for a large deepwater navy in the Star League, and LESS mission for it on the Clan Homeworlds, and the expense of supporting one is hideously expensive, even by SLDF standards.

esp. when you're only going to get around 5% of your worlds with it, because the rest don't have the right kind of bodies of water. (check the tables sometime.)



They've been used reliably for more than a century.  :-\  For fixed wing aircraft, there is the Mosquito Radar Plane and Torrent Heavy Bomber, see TRO:VA, both of which where used by everyone including the Clans.

Air ships are good on worlds very water rich worlds where ships aren't practical. See the Dawn Treader Airship fluff in TRO:VA.  There's no reason the SLDF, or the Clans, wouldn't use airships on similar worlds. Or on worlds that are very mountainous. There's also no reason the SLDF wouldn't have had their own version of the Schatten Surveillance Airship (TRO:VA). They had the Bug Eye Warship (TRO:2750). Why not an airship?

As Wrangler said  there's the Triumph. Also just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't exist.

As Weirdo said, you don't need specialized ships to carry naval vessels. Although I would say that anything over 200 tons might since they don't actually have a vehicle bay bigger than that. Still dropships don't have to land in water to deploy them.

Do we know that there isn't anything in the oceans that won't eat the subs or boats? There are certainly sea animals big enough to destroy a ship. See the fluff for the Ahab Whaler in TRO:VA. There could also be pirates, or other forces on the planet that weren't known about.

As for missions, again there's defending and attacking bandits, dark caste, pirates and other not so nice people who'd attack your interests. There's deep sea drilling, mining, farming, fishing, and research. There's  rescue missions. Exploration. Terra forming.  There's all kinds of reasons the SLDF and the Clans would want ships and subs for. The rewards would justify the expense of ships to defend such places.

That just means that large ships aren't going to be on every planet. Still, if there are waterways on the planet though there should be a means to patrol and defend them.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #86 on: 08 April 2019, 10:43:00 »
As Weirdo said, you don't need specialized ships to carry naval vessels. Although I would say that anything over 200 tons might since they don't actually have a vehicle bay bigger than that. Still dropships don't have to land in water to deploy them.

You still don't need specialized ships. Use the rules for loading units in bulk cargo. It'll take a while, that's all.

Since naval vessels(even small ones) can never be combat dropped, a vehicle bay simply gets you a convenient repair cradle and the ability to load/offload very fast. It is never a requirement to haul boats around(or any other kind of vehicle, for that matter).

The Mammoths used by Rapiers are specialized in fluff only. Any Mammoth can do the job.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #87 on: 08 April 2019, 12:08:41 »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #88 on: 08 April 2019, 12:21:27 »
I personally feel the assets as of Clan Invasion will likely be limited, to small naval base combat vehicles, submarines, and hovercraft.
While at the Dawn of the Clans, Operation Kodiak, they had more Star League related assets.  Anything large, i suspect such as the Silverfin Class Cutters, which could have been (unless new source is found) were either transported or locally manufactured in the Pentagon Worlds.

There hasn't been a lot information about wet navy assets, Inner Sphere is more likely employ them. It wasn't until the Handbook series begun, and came out TRO Vehicle Annex there hasn't been any larger naval-base vehicles (aka official Naval (Surface) support Vehicles or Naval (Submarine) Vessel Support Vehicles). As for the Clans, they have none with exception the Silverfin/Silverback Cutters.  It's reasonable to believe there are freighters/tankers on rare oceanic worlds in the Kerensky Cluster, however there no fluff or canon source supporting it.
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RifleMech

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #89 on: 08 April 2019, 23:05:04 »
I would love to see a product focusing on CAAN regiment detailing organization and equipment used. I'd love products focusing more on just land warfare. Maybe with some specialized tech. I know that's not likely but I can hope.


I think the SLDG took some larger ships and subs but most would be in the 100 ton or less category. I think the early Clans used what was left over from the Pentagon Wars and storage, divided up among the Clans that wanted them. Later on those Clans would build newer vessels to replace the lost and keep up with the demands of the service.
I'd guess the home world Clans are more restrictive now with Clan military commanding all vessels. If not that, having surface warships to enforce their will.The IS Clans I think would learn the value of having a blue water navy and depending on the Clan be expanding accordinly. It be a great place to let freeborns and IS populace serve.


You still don't need specialized ships. Use the rules for loading units in bulk cargo. It'll take a while, that's all.

Since naval vessels(even small ones) can never be combat dropped, a vehicle bay simply gets you a convenient repair cradle and the ability to load/offload very fast. It is never a requirement to haul boats around(or any other kind of vehicle, for that matter).

The Mammoths used by Rapiers are specialized in fluff only. Any Mammoth can do the job.


Rules wise, I agree. :) You don't need a special dropship.  Fluffwise though you'll need to make some modifications to carry warships. Othewise Super Heavy Mechs could just walk off the dropship instead of being shipped in pieces. Either way the dropship is still going to be landing next to the water to deploy the ship.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #90 on: 09 April 2019, 07:43:29 »
I would love to see a product focusing on CAAN regiment detailing organization and equipment used. I'd love products focusing more on just land warfare. Maybe with some specialized tech. I know that's not likely but I can hope.


I think the SLDG took some larger ships and subs but most would be in the 100 ton or less category. I think the early Clans used what was left over from the Pentagon Wars and storage, divided up among the Clans that wanted them. Later on those Clans would build newer vessels to replace the lost and keep up with the demands of the service.
I'd guess the home world Clans are more restrictive now with Clan military commanding all vessels. If not that, having surface warships to enforce their will.The IS Clans I think would learn the value of having a blue water navy and depending on the Clan be expanding accordinly. It be a great place to let freeborns and IS populace serve.



Rules wise, I agree. :) You don't need a special dropship.  Fluffwise though you'll need to make some modifications to carry warships. Othewise Super Heavy Mechs could just walk off the dropship instead of being shipped in pieces. Either way the dropship is still going to be landing next to the water to deploy the ship.

I posted something of a challenge in the vein of this, in the aerotech design forum, to see if there were ANY edge-case rules that could be used to build a dropship capable of moving an intact Luftenberg, after Weirdo posted this:

You still don't need specialized ships. Use the rules for loading units in bulk cargo. It'll take a while, that's all.

Since naval vessels(even small ones) can never be combat dropped, a vehicle bay simply gets you a convenient repair cradle and the ability to load/offload very fast. It is never a requirement to haul boats around(or any other kind of vehicle, for that matter).

The Mammoths used by Rapiers are specialized in fluff only. Any Mammoth can do the job.

Basically, because the Luft fits the grand scale thinking of the SLDF at the time.

(and, of course, the statement about how the SLDF fought everything, all the time.)

because...i wanted to see if it could even be done within the ruleset as it exists, and I am really not that great at bending construction rules to get things I want.

but there are players who are good at that, and could prove my guess incorrect.

now, here's the thing; doctrine.

The SLDF has a definite organizational DOCTRINE.  They like to be mobile (on an interstellar scale), and when they aren't, they like to have fixed installations that they can relieve quickly with those mobile forces. Makes kinda sense, doesn't it?

they had Caspar Units and Brian Fortresses, but until Word of Blake decided to revive the ballistic missile sub, they didn't have those.  which would seem to be the logical thing for the CAAN regiments, if they were a large navy, to possess-a planetary defense battery that can submerge and move, surface and strike, and submerge again would be a pretty decent augment to ground bases firing defensively into orbit.

but they didn't have it.

raises the question of 'why' and the answer is obvious: because at the time of the STAR LEAGUE, such a large surface/submarine vessel would be absurdly easy for an enemy in orbit (or with orbital coverage) to detect, track, and destroy quickly.

that and the 'fin' series cutters? really aren't very good ships for anything but terrorizing the local fishermen or escorting customs and Health inspections on freighters.  Their armament, while military grade, is also ridiculously short-ranged by 19th century standards, much less 26th or 28th century standards, and they can't support missions like beach landings.

this in turn suggests their role was (again) more akin to police even in the days of the SLDF.  to have a viable surface warship, you almost have to have what is considered artillery in the main game (Arrow IV, Thumper, Sniper, or Long Tom, or since Tac Ops, Cruise Missiles). this is because of "Horizon" ranges.

or you have to be a submarine/mini-submarine using torpedoes, because with a sub you can actually GET into range without the other guy evading.

that in turn suggests the cutters were 'Reserve unit' or even 'homeguard' level units-effectively non-regular formations or formations that serve the same function as the Guardia Civil in spain (paramilitary police).

because thus far, we have ONE actual military wet-NAVAL design that was Star League exclusive, and actually has a definable REGULAR operational purpose, plus two designs that are basically tax collection vehicles.

but....we have LOTS of hovercraft from the SLDF era, lots of hovers designed FOR the SLDF and manufactured elsewhere, and lots of Hovercraft in Clan vehicle formations.

This is highly suggestive of SLDF (including CAAN) doctrine.  remember, even the NAME includes the term "Armor"-and at the time the usage didn't mean PA(L) suits.

It meant armored surface vehicles.

I submit to thee, therefore, that CAAN units were probably NOT what you would term a 'Navy' in the present day sense, so much as a Marine Corps with divers.

after all, you can't respond to a land-based pirate attack (and most would be-it's a crash situation for most dropships to hit waterways) if your main guns can't even reach the beach.  basically you're going to be highly ineffective, and very expensive to build and maintain for being that highly ineffective.

to do the job of piracy prevention, or to do really ANY full-bore 'we're fighting the enemy' mission from a boat, you need to be able to reach at MINIMUM 5KM inland-and that's just to support a beach assault landing where the beach is close to deep water.

This in turn suggests that while the men might be worth taking, and the Tanks and choppers and aircraft certainly would be worth taking, the need for that cargo space to be devoted to food and families strongly implies that large wet naval vessels likely were not worth taking.  it even suggests that relatively small ones, like cutters, would be better left behind in favor of things like drinking water and food.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #91 on: 09 April 2019, 08:10:48 »
Well, the original question would is what would Clans, (early Clanners at that, later modern ones) be using.

Anything bigger than a Hovercraft, would be properly out of the question. They would have built anything they needed bigger on whatever world they were on.  Going on about what Blue Water Navy forces, including the CAAN which went with Kerenseky to isolated Colonies is minor issue.

Everything we've ever read about and has been published said, we only got this with a Division/Regiment scale.  TRO:VA on entry of Meabh Heavy Cruiser, mentions that this Lyran ship was built as a replacement for the Star League bluewater ships which were used to protect underwater bunkers and later the Davions made the much smaller Neptune-Class Submarines for the same purpose since those bunkers were now rare(?). The Meabh entry tells us SLDF had bluenavy big ships.  Clans tolerance for not wasting resources, would say big honking ship would be waste for combat purposes (i would think).

If the Clanners felt there was material need for (or Star League in Exile would more likely have built them) would used a existing design in their data cores and pump it out as needed.  I doubt it.  I love blue water stuff, but Battletech does not focus on stuff like that. Its which (in my opinon) is why vehicles on that scale were usually left as a abstract reference.

I think this should close this up, were drifting far away from what Rifleman's question. 
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #92 on: 09 April 2019, 08:17:37 »
they had Caspar Units and Brian Fortresses, but until Word of Blake decided to revive the ballistic missile sub, they didn't have those.  which would seem to be the logical thing for the CAAN regiments, if they were a large navy, to possess-a planetary defense battery that can submerge and move, surface and strike, and submerge again would be a pretty decent augment to ground bases firing defensively into orbit.

but they didn't have it.

raises the question of 'why' and the answer is obvious: because at the time of the STAR LEAGUE, such a large surface/submarine vessel would be absurdly easy for an enemy in orbit (or with orbital coverage) to detect, track, and destroy quickly.
I figured that something the size of a Wyrm would be detectable from orbit, so long as it wasn't too deep but never realized that orbital assets can see subs anywhere.  And I certainly never realized that no amount of water will protect a sub from an orbital strike. 

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #93 on: 09 April 2019, 09:47:18 »
Since the Atols the Clans fought over during Operation Klondike were mobile structures I'd say that the SLDF did bring some large ships for exploration and construction. And defense, cause they're military. Most I think were lost during the pentagon wars or in mothballs. After that the Clans built or pulled from storage as needed. I do think they'd have the lowest priority though.

I do think the SLDF had more than just what we've seen so far. They'd probably the equivalents to everything we have now and even more advanced versions. Unfortunately we haven't seen them. :(

I also think CAANs TO@E would vary depending on their location. I know the SLDF like to have whole battalions or more of the same unit but that doesn't feel right for CAANs. Whole companies maybe but not a whole battalion. There's just too much variety in terrain that they'd need to cover. I think  CAANs stationed at rivers might have more tanks and boats and less subs while those at harbors could have more boats and subs and more hovers and no tanks. Those stationed at islands could have larger ships or even airships to move more of their personnel around. Those off world would also have their own needs to deal with. And I can see the SLDF using carriers since the CAANs who spend more time out at sea would need to land their fighters somewhere.



I'm going to have to look up the rules again. I remember subs could be tracked but I didn't think you could shoot them from orbit.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #94 on: 09 April 2019, 10:20:18 »
I figured that something the size of a Wyrm would be detectable from orbit, so long as it wasn't too deep but never realized that orbital assets can see subs anywhere.  And I certainly never realized that no amount of water will protect a sub from an orbital strike.

They cannot . . . questions about satellites being able to detect subs 10-50m underwater . . . but that is IF the sky is clear, and IF they are looking in the right place, at the right time.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #95 on: 09 April 2019, 13:05:23 »
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #96 on: 09 April 2019, 15:48:52 »
They cannot . . . questions about satellites being able to detect subs 10-50m underwater . . . but that is IF the sky is clear, and IF they are looking in the right place, at the right time.

WITH 21st century technology tehy can reach 10-50 meters.  what's it going to be in 2500?  The principle has already been proven to work and is used for deep ocean mapping now.  Something displacing that much water is going to be detectable through cloud cover by 2500.

and if you can detect it, and track it?  you can target and destroy it.  The only option for a submerged vessel is not to surface to where it can launch its payload, which in turn, makes it what?

tactically and strategically irrelevant.

Further, do you really think they wouldn't coordinate orbital coverage with tactical strike bombers to deliver nuclear depth charges? amaris already demonstrated how much respect he had for the Ares Conventions by using nukes in urban areas.  a 5KT nuke delivered over a deep oceanic abyssal? do you really think he wouldn't to eliminate a high-value enemy asset?  Seawater is a great way to limit neutron spray and avoid a lot of the long-term problems associated with nuclear testing, in most ways it's safer than setting them off in atmosphere, and Depth charges work by creating overpressure shocks.  (kinda like tossing dynamite into a pond to stun the fish.)

point being, maybe the reason our only canon STAR LEAGUE sub is 50 tons is because bigger is just a liability at the time of the STAR LEAGUE?

It's important to remember a couple things; the 'Great Houses' had a period of tech loss before the Terran Hegemony initiated the Star League-because they were colonies.  This is also why the Periphery was technically behind the Houses.

Then everyone lost a shit ton of tech after Kerensky left.  Big wet-naval becomes viable when the tech to neutralize it quickly and easily ceases to be common or available.

but that tech was common AND available when the STAR LEAGUE was at its height.

you know, right before Stephan Amaris decided to put a shot through his Sovereign's head, and before General Kerensky decided to storm off in a huff when the Houses wouldn't put him on the throne.

It is doubtful that the exodus would waste tonnage and volume carrying equipment that isn't either militarily viable, nor useful, when taking off to found their bandit kingdom.  further, it's unlikely they'd HAVE such a choice to make.  The CAAN regiments included some wet naval assets, but the more important consideration is what would be effective 'blue water' naval for the Star League era, in the technological situation OF the Star League era and the strategic dispositions OF the star league era, from the perspective of the most technically advanced and refined forces of that era.

Because that's the material the Clans had to build off of.  not the relics, not the junk, not the garbage, the BEST.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #97 on: 09 April 2019, 16:09:25 »
Whoa, there. By that logic, there are a lot of things that every faction has but really shouldn't. Unless you want to assert that the Seen, Unseen, Reseen, Re-Engineered, Okay, Now Were Sure, BattleMechs were literally disappearing into and out of existence in-universe as the events of this world affected that one.

"Operation Holy Shroud".  one of the side effects would be making previously non-viable ideas viable again.

sort of how if you suddenly regressed to mid/early 19th century (say, losing the ability to manufacture machine guns and smokeless gunpowder in large scale) massed formations of troops walking shoulder-to-shoulder would again be a viable strategy for overcoming an enemy, rather than just relieving your own overpopulation problem.

or if, say, you lost 99.99% of the petroleum refining capability world-wide? well...steam power ground vehicles, blimps, and horses become militarily viable again...as front line units.

and Horse-drawn transport and horseback reconaissance hasn't been militarily viable since Germany invaded Poland except in very narrow edge cases (an artillery unit in WWII in italy used horses and mules to assault an axis position, and horses were useful scout vehicles in Afghanistan-against al Quaeda, but only because they were being used by special forces.)

but you don't have to go that far.  Lose the tech to maintain guided missile systems and suddenly big-gun dreadnoughts become viable combatants again.  Not just coastal support platforms, but for sinking other (military) ships as primary units.  lose the ability to build reliable jet engines and you get the same thing.

Comstar did a LOT of damage to the Inner Sphere, so much that things that shouldn't work, do.







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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #98 on: 09 April 2019, 17:08:19 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 15:03:38 by Easy »

Cannonshop

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #99 on: 09 April 2019, 18:04:39 »
Holy Shroud isn't that thoroughly documented either. Seems like it throws the matter into a Game Master's hands, and we're back to my table, your table, again, as if it were unsolvable. I'm not ready to get behind a default 'did exist, or not' based on a Holy Shroud card, which, btw, is not going to affect the OP at all since Holy Shroud didn't extend to the Clan Homeworlds and was exposed to the Inner Sphere eventually, anyways.

my point ws the tech-loss from Holy shroud made big wet-naval units viable, and the Clans (as you point out) didn't lose that tech, by simple elimination then, they don't have a NEED for large vessels any more than the SLDF did (and in fact, had LESS need, since the settlements would have been mostly inland to make best use of landing space for dropships.  Flatlands are the river deltas of interstellar colonization when you have enough ships to haul your entire population.)

basically,

Star League Era: big wet navies are useless
Succession wars and Holy Shroud: Inner sphere, big wet naval vessels are now useful-for a time.

Exodus: See:Star League Era
Golden Century: still not viable except as enforcement on lower castes (and you don't need particularly big ships for that.)

Result:
Aside from some replicated copies of the fin series cutters on VERY populace worlds, the Clans probably don't have wet navies to speak of, and those cutters are likely rare one-offs.

Meanwhile, the rest of humanity who LOST all that juicy tech knowledge now has a use for large wet naval assets. ergo, you get Luftenbergs and you get that transportable Davion boat, and you get that battleship, and you get the WoB's big ass ballistic missile sub.

Because the tech could only become viable again, with the loss and stagnation eras of technology in the Inner Sphere.  Clans didn't have the tech loss, ergo, they had no reason to invest in developing large wet naval assets, they don't even have the population to need to cover such a thing, and they're in 'enclaves', which means they don't have the need to cover large uninhabited areas on a planetary surface (that are also a hostile environment not only for humans, but for technology in general) the way the Lyrans would need to cover Skye or Alarion-hence why there are a few copy-cutters.  For fast response, the Clans have ample lift capacity (Dropships) and the ability to reach anywhere on a planet's surface, from anywhere in a matter of minutes to hours.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #100 on: 10 April 2019, 04:03:01 »
Okay. I looked at the rules and unless the latest version has changed the rules on Satellite Imagers only a couple can see underwater and the best depth is 3 so finding subs isn't going to be that easy.



The SLDF could still use large warships. Submersible fortresses come to mind. The SLDF certainly had the means to build them. Even those in Exile did. They made the Atols which were man made islands. And if your space warship can hit an ocean ship, the ocean ship can hit back. "Smaller" warships would also be useful in rescue operations. As to why build them, to protect the oceans from attack. That's a lot of area not covered by ground fortress guns, leaving a big hole in the planet's defenses. Surface warships would help fill those holes. But for all we know the SLDF stuck with what could be carried on a dropship and left everything else to the Militia. We just don't know.

Early Clans probably made do with what was left and other vehicles. I doubt all the Pentagon Powers were happy about losing. And there's the Bandit Caste for most of Clan history, plus the HW Clans would want to make sure there's no more of the Scientist Casts troops about. Patrol and protecting waterways and resources are a legitimate military operation. The Clans would spend some resources on naval units. They would also spend resources on larger ships for rescue and recovery. You can't land a 30 ton VTOL on a 40 ton cutter. So yes I can see the Clans building a destroyer sized ship instead of causing damage to their dropships by making them land and take off from water. I can also see them using airships for the same reasons. They might even be preferable since they can cover land as well as water.

Space warships don't matter much either since they're typically the first things bid away. There's a limited number of warships and they can't be everywhere. That reduces the worry of ortillery. Also the IS Clans are going to use surface ships for the same reasons the IS does. Patrol, counter insurgency/smuggling, attack, defense, rescue, exploration, fishing...etc. They have a lot more territory to cover they're going to need units to do that. Again airships are also a viable counterpart or alternative to surface ships.

That leaves the questions of; what did they have, was it upgraded, what replaced it or added to it, what were they armed with, and who crewed them?

I don't think the Clans paid too much attention to wet navy needs for most of their existence. I believe the Clans did use them but used the bottom of the barrel in terms of crews. I believe they were also the last to be upgraded. After the Clan Invasion I think they were still some of the last to be upgraded but they were upgraded. What they're upgraded with though IS, Clan, or Mixed Tech, I don't know.  Depending on the Clan, I think they'd be crewed by solhama, freebirths, and IS citizens. I think the HW Clans would still crew the surface vessels with solhama and freebirths but I think they'd be upgraded too. After all you never know if there's any more of the Scientist Casts rebels out there. Plus they'd want to keep a closer eye and tighter grip on the civilian cast. That'd mean better sensors and heavier weapons.


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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #101 on: 10 April 2019, 08:57:01 »
Taking things back towards the original topic... if we envision the use of a Jordmungand-style wet-navy warship in the service of some Clan or other on a water-heavy world, what does that end up looking like in terms of operation? I don't mean how fast it is or what weapons it has, I mean who runs it and how? Is it warrior caste? Or is it warriors in command of, say, merchant caste crew (since it's likely in service to protect shipping operations and the like), sor tof an officers/crew situation? And in terms of Clan organization, does it fit in a niche the way a Dropship does in terms of Points/Stars, or is it just kind of its own thing?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #102 on: 10 April 2019, 09:17:07 »
I would expect any crewed vessel larger than a combat vehicle to follow the same model as Clan DS/WS- while a warrior may pull the trigger (or push a button) on the weapons console, its going to be laborers and techs who man the ship.  Force structure wise . . . I would think all warriors hold 'officer' type positions, but they would be what we consider gunnery/command branches.  Navigation, Engineering, Coms, any other station would be manned by 'warrants' as the highest rank & staffed by techs and laborers.

I also think the reason we would never see them mentioned in a FMCC/WC style book as part of the force run down is they would fall into the PGC/para-military police formations.  So the Scorpions on Roche have a small destroyer that patrols their fisheries and offshore mining dome zones.  Probably uncomfortably for most of the crew (think Zec description) and it likely has excellent sensors for finding subs or mechs trying to encroach, some torpedoes or depth charges, token surface weapons- likely just some LPLs to deal with hovers, and maybe some decent AA.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #103 on: 10 April 2019, 10:00:22 »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #104 on: 10 April 2019, 10:11:20 »
Taking things back towards the original topic... if we envision the use of a Jordmungand-style wet-navy warship in the service of some Clan or other on a water-heavy world, what does that end up looking like in terms of operation? I don't mean how fast it is or what weapons it has, I mean who runs it and how? Is it warrior caste? Or is it warriors in command of, say, merchant caste crew (since it's likely in service to protect shipping operations and the like), sor tof an officers/crew situation? And in terms of Clan organization, does it fit in a niche the way a Dropship does in terms of Points/Stars, or is it just kind of its own thing?

switching gears from my previous argument, I'd have to agree, but I'll go you one step further.

Wet Naval is the bottom rung.  Once you've dropped from the 'mechwarrior/aerospace fields for being too old, and you've booted your last boot as a grunt Solahma infantryman, and you're too old to be a Klan Kop, (or if you're aerospace phenotype), then you get to pursue the exciting career of being a Gunner's Mate third class on the next available wet-naval vessel, and if you can survive long enough in the job, you might climb the ranks to being a gunnery officer, or even a ship's officer again.

maybe.  Assuming the guy above you finally dies.

Unless it's a large sub, because guess what's great for teaching someone how to instrument-fly a dropship?

I kind of expect Clanner wet-navy types are silver-haired oldsters, whose hips and joints hurt every morning cycle, with loads of experience in all sorts of other kinds of warfare, but maybe not enough talent to gracefully progress onward to death in an honorable (or quietly peaceful) manner just yet.

as for the rest of the ratings, well...

I could see Warriors that actually test-down winding up as Bosuns/able seamen after a short training course (Laborer caste) along with healthy young laborers who maybe ALMOST tested high enough for infantry service in second-line formations.  Engineers would be techs, maybe even talented ones with a special sort of mania the rest of us see only in Navy types who make it a lifestyle instead of a stepping stone.

basically young lower-caste and REALLY old warriors.

The 'Star Commander' of a ship like a Jormy would be this old guy, probably wears a big pea-coat over his Clan Solahma Fatigues, with a crusher cap and a pipe (even if he doesn't smoke), a Beard, and a death-wish view of risk.  The kind of guy who'll take it into the teeth of a storm because he has no other nearby enemies to fight so why not?

I imagine such officers probably have a rep among their clansmen, regardless of WHICH clan (except maybe the Scorpions), for being blitz-raging-nuts.  Nuts to the level of "Don't duel him, you won't get any glory for winning and you'll be humiliated if you lose."

of course, this isn't a universal, because lifestyle Squids and lifestyle Bubbleheads are freaking weird people, so the only ones seen as potentially MORE mentally unbalanced would be the exceedingly rare Trueborn or talented Freebirth as a young man who volunteers for it.

Such officers would be seen as some shade of absolutely, completely, and totally insane.  Such a person might also be able to become incredibly, insanely competent, and eventually get his or herself drafted to learn the controls of a proper interstellar warship or combat dropship..for being so insane (Scorpions seem likely with this, though I could see it happening to the Diamond Sharks too...) because they'll do things nobody else would crazy  (or possibly stupid) enough to pull off.



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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #105 on: 10 April 2019, 10:51:36 »
Hm . . . a training cruise on a wet navy ship could be part of the training program for a dropship assigned to the touman or a Clan's warship.  It teaches certain habits and mindsets that will carry over even if all the technology does not.  While the sea is not really forgiving, its infinitesimally more forgiving than the void.

Sort of like looking at the arguments about who would control actual space ships . . . sure the USAF flies planes, but the USN has the institutional mindset and experience.  Especially sub protocols.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #106 on: 10 April 2019, 11:09:26 »
I'll note that if the Clans do indeed have larger wet navy vessels, it seems likely that most of the crew would be from lower castes, just as happens with Clan space navies.
At least, IIRC, Clan space ships are usually crewed by some warriors as command crew, and rest of the tasks handled by Merchants or presumably Labor castes.

Obviously ignore what i'm saying if i'm wrong.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #107 on: 10 April 2019, 11:38:05 »
I'll note that if the Clans do indeed have larger wet navy vessels, it seems likely that most of the crew would be from lower castes, just as happens with Clan space navies.
At least, IIRC, Clan space ships are usually crewed by some warriors as command crew, and rest of the tasks handled by Merchants or presumably Labor castes.

Obviously ignore what i'm saying if i'm wrong.

Not sure why everyone keeps saying ships need merchants . . . the ship is going to need techs & laborers to operate, and maybe a small selection of merchants to make folks operate.  Break down would be-

Engineering-  Techs to handle maintenence, Damage Control, engine operations, or any other systems
Chiefs/Bosun/Seamen-  Laborers who nearly tested into tech caste, larger ships might have some Elemental blood but definitely not assigned to any subs; they will assist ChEng with grunt work.  They will also form the gunnery, missile and torpedo crews under the guidance of a warrior (somewhere) at the top of the chain of command
Supply-  here are your merchants, the folks managing inventories and giving out spare underwear
Nav & Sensors- Scientists overseeing techs

Honestly, crew would probably be something like 40% Tech, 40% Laborer, 10% Merch, 5% Warrior and 5% Scientist.

Besides Roche or Dagda, whichever world the Scorps did their underwater mining on, I would also expect surface ships on York as part of the Spirits fanatical defense.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #108 on: 10 April 2019, 12:02:17 »
Not sure why everyone keeps saying ships need merchants . . . the ship is going to need techs & laborers to operate, and maybe a small selection of merchants to make folks operate.  Break down would be-

I'm only saying that because that's what i vaguely recall.
As for the reasons, i figure it is because the Merchants travel most in space (or at all) from non-Warriors within the Clans. And also because they're the most logistically-oriented of all Clanners.

But i suppose it might make more sense for Warriors to command Merchants who command teams of Laborers. Or Techs? Uh... the chain of command gets kinda weird when it involves non-military people.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #109 on: 10 April 2019, 12:06:02 »
Or when you do not have logical links b/c of caste differences-  how many DS were lost in battle b/c a warrior commanding the ship did not listen to his Chief Engineer b/c he was a tech?
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #110 on: 10 April 2019, 12:18:34 »
The same can be said of Clan space navies.  One warrior comanding a crew of techs is bound to have negative consequences due to communication and relationships between castes.
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #111 on: 12 April 2019, 08:47:55 »
So if the Clans use wet navy ships for black navy training and later solhoma duty how close could the bridges and C&Cs on surface ships be made to resemble those on space ships?

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #112 on: 12 April 2019, 09:34:27 »
So if the Clans use wet navy ships for black navy training and later solhoma duty how close could the bridges and C&Cs on surface ships be made to resemble those on space ships?

Look at current pictures of CICs to get a idea.

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #113 on: 13 April 2019, 04:24:12 »
Look at current pictures of CICs to get a idea.



So pretty darn close.  :thumbsup:  So training and solhama duty for black navy is a good use for wet navy units. Cool! :)

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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #114 on: 14 April 2019, 08:08:25 »
TRO:Vehicle Annex Revised. P233

Atlaua Coastal Cutter:


Baleena IIC:

Wow, I have had this book for ever now and never even looked at p233 lol
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Re: Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles
« Reply #115 on: 14 April 2019, 20:02:34 »
Unfortunately nether vehicle is listed on the MUL, nether been assigned battlevalue or even record sheet.

Seems alot the Revised listed units don't have entries either.  I think they were posted on Sarna because they were waiting for MUL entry to be added and hoping for distant year Record Sheets be made for them and other stuff. 
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