Do the Clans use wet navy vehicles

[beachhead1985]

The Exodus featured three CAAN regiments, so they may use stock SL designs and antiques.

IIRC Op: KLONDIKE made at least one mention of the Pentagon Powers using Wet Navy ships

[Wrangler]

I would think there would be freighters and tankers. Like the one from the TRO:VA the examples.  With that said it depends how often resources are trialed. I'd think they wouldn't involved them. It would trial them elsewhere where. I would think a coastal star would be using hovercraft if they were seaborne force with maybe point of conventional aircraft.  Submarines would be rare. I do remember reading mini subs being used but i don't remember.

[Jellico]

The advantage of naval units is combat persistence. They can stay on station a long time.

Now Battletech military operations are based on elite small units being dropped into targeted scenarios. Think precision bombing vs carpet.

This combat style does not suit blue navy ships. Ships are suited to policing work. The question then is how much hull you need to do your policing. It is hard to see a need for more than a 20K LHD type vessel. A 500 ton patrol boat is mostly adequate.

[RifleMech]

I've been looking all over Operation Klondike and so far I've found Hailes Commonwealth had 11 coastal cutters, one of which was sunk. Everything else is either infantry or mechs. At least that I can find.


In regards to the three CAAN regiments, is that a grand total of CAAN personel or three regiments plus an unknown number of battalions and companies?  It also does seem like much equipment survived the Pentagon wars survived with only 11 cutters (so far) in Klondike it doesn't seem like much CAAN equipment survived. Unless some were lost in a cache. (Maybe the same ones Wolf's Dragoons got their LAMs from?)

Even if most CAAN boats and subs survived in mothballs there doesn't seem to be a lot of equipment for the Clans. I would think that they would have to make new vehicles. I don't think they'd spend any more resources than necessary though. I think they might want some frigates or destroyers but I'm not sure about bigger. Although a carrier would be cool. I also don't think they'd have the latest equipment. I think they'd get hand me downs from other units. Depending on the Clan and their needs, I can easily see naval unit's best equipment being Improved weapons.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah. The issue of three regiments being even able to cover the number of ships in the Exodus fleet remains, though. Are Fleet Marines, in other words, the contingent of Marines on each Warship and Transport, organically part of a CAAN unit attached to that ship or Fleet, or are they counted organically part of that ship's crew, don't wear CAAN patches and aren't really CAAN Marines at all? Would it be too much administrivia to keep a parallel Marine command operating companies of Fleet Marines all over the place?

This is obviously more like a narrative gap than a math problem. How many wet-navy vessels the Exodus fleet carried with them might depend a lot on the answers, though.

Warship Security/MP/Marines have nothing to do w/ CAAN Regiments.

CAAN units are designed for Island Hopping essentially & are deployed on Water Rich (Dominated) worlds.




As for the OP.

My guess is the Exodus probably had quite a few of those SLDF Subs with them.  (Manta & something else IIRC)  (~100-ish at least I would think so any clan could have a couple/few)

I'm not sure how many large tanker ships would have been taken as that is a HUGE ship to be placed inside a dropship for transport.   (Maybe 1-2 per clan tops in the beginning)

I very much doubt any major Carrier/Battleship sized Waterships were included at all, but, maybe something like the Silverback Cutter from TRO:VA IIRC.

[rebs]

IIRC Op: KLONDIKE made at least one mention of the Pentagon Powers using Wet Navy ships

The Goliath Scorpion section about Naomi Dejerassi single-handedly taking an atoll features small craft that took her and her team to the atoll.

[dgorsman]

Large ships mean large crews, like Warships.  And like those and conventional vehicles it's about fighting as a team.  For the individual oriented performance of the Clans that's not so desirable.

I would see more small trials taking place between Elementals on the deck of targeted transport vessels, or some version of safecon for islands or underwater facilities.  Where's the honor in hiding your forces somewhere an attacker can't even get to them?  Of course if a challenger *does* have the resources for naval or underwater combat, then game on.

[Drewbacca]

Golden Century has Clan Mongoose defending their capital enclave I believe with wet navy ships.

[RifleMech]

The Goliath Scorpion section about Naomi Dejerassi single-handedly taking an atoll features small craft that took her and her team to the atoll.

The only thing that section says is that ocean going vessels known as atols where were floating islands were made. The Goliath Scorpions arrived at Kepler Atoll by shuttle. So the SDLFinE at least retained the ability to make ocean going mobile structures.

Large ships mean large crews, like Warships.  And like those and conventional vehicles it's about fighting as a team.  For the individual oriented performance of the Clans that's not so desirable.

I would see more small trials taking place between Elementals on the deck of targeted transport vessels, or some version of safecon for islands or underwater facilities.  Where's the honor in hiding your forces somewhere an attacker can't even get to them?  Of course if a challenger *does* have the resources for naval or underwater combat, then game on.

But Clans do use vehicles, some more enthusiastically then others. They also use warships and jumpships so crewing smaller ships shouldn't be a problem. Having them or not...?

The point of hiding your facilities is so you won't have to trial for them. If your enemies found out about it though you'd need to defend them. Using tactics and terrain to your advantage is a part of combat and I think all Clans understand that. I don't think putting a giant "Hit Me" sign out so they can see it is very honorable either. Of course they could always trial for a map to the base first.  ;)

Golden Century has Clan Mongoose defending their capital enclave I believe with wet navy ships.

Thanks. :) Unfortunately it doesn't say what those were. :(

[Weirdo]

The point of hiding your facilities is so you won't have to trial for them. If your enemies found out about it though you'd need to defend them. Using tactics and terrain to your advantage is a part of combat and I think all Clans understand that. I don't think putting a giant "Hit Me" sign out so they can see it is very honorable either. Of course they could always trial for a map to the base first.  ;)

You don't have to hide a base to make it safe from Trials, just make it impractical to take with proportionate forces. Since an important base will have frontline forces sent after it, that means mechs. So if your base is underwater and below the crush depth for mechs(note that even small conventional subs can go much deeper than mechs quite safely), and give it a couple Morays, then you make it impractical for most Clan forces to attack, yet you can still make the base's location public and nobody can accuse you of keeping resources hidden.

[RifleMech]

You don't have to hide a base to make it safe from Trials, just make it impractical to take with proportionate forces. Since an important base will have frontline forces sent after it, that means mechs. So if your base is underwater and below the crush depth for mechs(note that even small conventional subs can go much deeper than mechs quite safely), and give it a couple Morays, then you make it impractical for most Clan forces to attack, yet you can still make the base's location public and nobody can accuse you of keeping resources hidden.

Didn't the Jade Falcons hide their LAM and other genetics experiments in a mountain facility for Falcon breeding?

[Weirdo]

It wasn't hidden, the Jaguars knew exactly where the facility was. Not knowing about a place and not caring about it are two very different things.

Not knowing what's going on inside said facility? That's 100% the Jaguars' fault.

[beachhead1985]

Even if most CAAN boats and subs survived in mothballs there doesn't seem to be a lot of equipment for the Clans. I would think that they would have to make new vehicles. I don't think they'd spend any more resources than necessary though. I think they might want some frigates or destroyers but I'm not sure about bigger. Although a carrier would be cool. I also don't think they'd have the latest equipment. I think they'd get hand me downs from other units. Depending on the Clan and their needs, I can easily see naval unit's best equipment being Improved weapons.

We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.

[Wrangler]

We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.

I was under the impression that the force structured as highly mobile force which it move quickly and deal with most terrain challenges including water in particular.

[rebs]

That's a good summation as to CAAN capabilities. But that still doesn't answer what kind of equipment they tended to have.

[RifleMech]

It wasn't hidden, the Jaguars knew exactly where the facility was. Not knowing about a place and not caring about it are two very different things.

Not knowing what's going on inside said facility? That's 100% the Jaguars' fault.

They probably didn't care about a facility for breeding birds. Breeding cats though they might have paid more attention. Besides they'd already swiped all the mechs the Falcons had stored outside. Why pay more attention?

We still have very little real idea what kind of equipment; specifically the extent of the Naval Assets, that a CAAN might field.

Going through Sarna I've got CAANs using armored vehicles BattleMechs, hovercraft, fighters, and blue-water warships. I could swear I read they also had LAMs. I would think that they also have infantry. Regiments seem to have specialties which include underwater combat, low gravity, underground combat, urban combat, and amphibious landings. So what is assigned to one regiment might not be whats assigned to another.

Other than that who knows?  How would larger warships fit into the regiment? Would they be individual units with 4 to a lance or would they be considered in the same way as dropships would for other units? Transportation and base of operations?  CAAN regiments do get reassigned so size would be a factor. Destroyers can be carried in a dropship but can any bigger ship?

[Wrangler]

I can only tell you what SLDF (original) house books said in CAAN (Combined Armor, Air, and Naval Regiment) origins which started in 2316 while part older Terran Hegemony (see pg 17). Initially they used Jump Troops and Hovercraft and had their own JumpShips. Like others said, House book was brief on their description aside from them employing, BattleMechs, tanks, hovercraft, fighters, and water warships. (SLDF p. 134) 

The Field Manual SLDF (p13) repeats this basic layout of the now Divisions, "Cavalry, armored, aerospace and naval regiments are trained in aquatic operations and are the only SLDF units with integral blue-water naval assets." The Regiments Special Abilities in the Rules Annex dues adds more, except that individual units are skilled in boarding dock or grapple.  There only quick mentioned of the CAAN in action in the Reunification War.

I do remember something too about them using LAMs, i may glanced through the books too quickly to catch it.

[rebs]

Based on that, I could see at least some of the Clans fielding hovercraft, Undines, plus a small contingent of ships and submarines as well.  But that's limited to Clans with interests that are ocean-bound, like the Goliath Scorpions or the Diamond Sharks. 

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[Wrangler]

Based on that, I could see at least some of the Clans fielding hovercraft, Undines, plus a small contingent of ships and submarines as well.  But that's limited to Clans with interests that are ocean-bound, like the Goliath Scorpions or the Diamond Sharks.

Sea Foxes. I would think too.

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[Weirdo]

You use any spheroid DropShip with sufficient cargo tonnage, and land it on land adjacent to water hexes. Unloading your large ship will takequite a while, but the moment it ceases to be cargo and becomes a unit it game terms, it begins play in those water hexes. Bingo, no need for landing ships in water, which is a VERY bad idea, by the way.

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[RifleMech]

It occurs to me that what a CAAN brigade or regiment would really want is some sort of large Dropship that can land on water and deploy and recover vessels and boats and then take off again.

I am not up on what water landing rules are for large Dropships, or whether any of them would float, probably not.

snip

Rules for water landings are in Strategic Operations. I think Aerodynes can land in water okay but its riskier than landing on land. Spheroids though take damage when they take off again. Unloading boats and subs then becomes easier. The loading and unloading of ships though would be more complicated. The easiest way I can think of is to move the ship into a drydock with a trailer on the bottom. Water is removed and ship lands on the trailer. Then the trailer is moved onto the dropship. Unloading would be the reverse. Faster would be getting the dropship in to the water and floating the ship on and off. I'm not sure how to do that without damage. Landing on a submersible mobile structure maybe? Is that legal?

[CVB]

The Rapier Patrol Destroyer fluff mentions modified Mammoth dropships carrying two Rapiers in their cargo hold.
It would be a fitting quirk for the Mammoth to be excempt from water damage because of its engine pods being mounted high above the water line.

[Cannonshop]

That's a good summation as to CAAN capabilities. But that still doesn't answer what kind of equipment they tended to have.

More than likely a lot of Hovercraft, WiGE vehicles and the like, it's unlikely that the SLDF would have invested in systems that are too big to comfortably dropship on a Lion class, with probably a stronger-than average combat drop capability and a heavier than normal air-wing.  (Naval line-of-battle seems kind of illogical when someone can drop a shot from orbit...)

what is very UNlikely is much in the way of submarine assets.  Such machines tend to be difficult to transport on a dropship, and relatively few worthwhile targets are located in deep water.

[CVB]

what is very UNlikely is much in the way of submarine assets.  Such machines tend to be difficult to transport on a dropship, and relatively few worthwhile targets are located in deep water.

And yet TRO3086Supp. says

the Manta and Moray [submarines] were jointly designed under contract to the SLDF for service in their CAAN regiments

[Cannonshop]

And yet TRO3086Supp. says

I didn't say "Wouldn't have any" I said there wouldn't be MUCH.  of course they're going to have SOME.  Now, as to whether they brought a whole bunch of them (Plus the tooling to make more) with them on Exodus?  depends more on whether or not the line developer gets really "Into" wet-naval warfare as a 'thing' (because the Clans always have to have the best of every class, even when it makes zero sense or requires a rules revamp for them to get it. it's a rule just like "you roll dice for initiative".)

more than likely you might see one to four of them even GOING on exodus, and that's as survey equipment.  (assuming Kerensky actually put thought into the idea of establishing his colonies rather than everyone starving to death in interstellar space.)

but it's vanishingly unlikely that the Clans would have a luftenberg-equivalent, or some of the larger wet-naval assets that the Davions like to use in heavy rotation, not when it's more 'efficient' to keep colonists near easily-obtained mineral deposits and fertile regions close to shore.  (particularly, easier to control your lower castes by limiting their movement to areas that favor your dominant unit types.)

Highly-centralized economies with strict caste systems don't tend to invest in situations where that control is put at risk-and an archipelago surrounded by deep water is easier to patrol with WiGE vehicles, than to control with v-hulls or catamarans, because the WiGE vehicles will be faster than anything they might be sent after, aren't hampered by dirt, sand bars, or submerged rocks, and can cover a larger area with fewer bodies more efficiently. 

Further, they might even CALL such vessels "Cutters" because that's the ROLE they play.  a fast, below-frigate littoral vessel for customs enforcement, close-to-shore search and rescue, and coastal law enforcement missions.

this isn't to say subs aren't present-they likely are, but large ones are going to be most likely absent, just on account of most Clan worlds have shallow (at best) seas, rather than extensive coverings of deep water, and most Clan facilities will be near the shore (for efficiency's sake).

[CVB]

I was only talking about CAAN equipment, not clan subs.