Author Topic: How about some IWM plastics?  (Read 15699 times)

DarkSpade

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How about some IWM plastics?
« on: 13 March 2019, 18:23:26 »
It's pretty clear that a lot of us would love to see more plastic mechs.  There's a another thread asking about it seemingly ever other day.  We also know there's a number of reasons why Catalyst can't produce them to the level we'd all love to see.

But what about IWM?   Yeah they only deal in metal minis, but so did reaper for a long time. Not to mention Privateer press, Wyrd, and many other companies.  They've already got the experience with minis, the phone number of a lot of talented sculptors, and most importantly, the rights to make battletech minis.

Who knows, if it worked out maybe they could even change their name to Resin Zephyr Plastics!
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carlisimo

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #1 on: 13 March 2019, 19:06:26 »
I’m surprised IWM didn’t switch to resin when tin prices spiked.  I’d be happy if all new minis were resin instead of metal; it doesn’t chip nearly as easily and it’s easier to fix mold lines.  Granted, you can’t just start pouring resin into molds for metal minis (see: GW’s Finecast adventures), but for future products, why not?  Labor costs?  Hazardous materials?

I don’t expect rigid plastic to be financially feasible, with a few possible exceptions.  But I’m not sure about that - Wyrd’s been able to release plastic sprues for Malifaux, and they’re not high volume sellers. 

Please none of that flexible plastic that CGL is using in the new box sets.  It’s great in that it allows some of the molding flexibility of resin or metal (allowing what would be undercuts in a two-piece mold), but there’s always a lot of cleaning up needed and the material is particularly difficult to work with.

dgorsman

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #2 on: 13 March 2019, 19:33:05 »
I've *never* found it easier to fix mold lines in plastic.  I've also seen fewer on metal casts.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #3 on: 13 March 2019, 20:51:16 »
Plastic doesn't mold to nice edges or hold the details as well. But economics of scale flat out prohibit it. BattleTech doesn't sell in the volume to justify the investment or start up costs and each mold would cost thousands of dollars.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #4 on: 13 March 2019, 21:20:07 »
would we be able to fan fund a sculpt for $800?

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #5 on: 13 March 2019, 21:55:19 »
would we be able to fan fund a sculpt for $800?

Nope

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #6 on: 13 March 2019, 21:57:54 »
That’s a no from me, dog

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speck

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #7 on: 13 March 2019, 22:00:22 »
I’m surprised IWM didn’t switch to resin when tin prices spiked.  I’d be happy if all new minis were resin instead of metal; it doesn’t chip nearly as easily and it’s easier to fix mold lines.  Granted, you can’t just start pouring resin into molds for metal minis (see: GW’s Finecast adventures), but for future products, why not?  Labor costs?  Hazardous materials?

I don’t expect rigid plastic to be financially feasible, with a few possible exceptions.  But I’m not sure about that - Wyrd’s been able to release plastic sprues for Malifaux, and they’re not high volume sellers. 

Please none of that flexible plastic that CGL is using in the new box sets.  It’s great in that it allows some of the molding flexibility of resin or metal (allowing what would be undercuts in a two-piece mold), but there’s always a lot of cleaning up needed and the material is particularly difficult to work with.

Biggest reason there was no switch is the $$$$$ required to do so.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #8 on: 13 March 2019, 22:10:50 »
I’m surprised IWM didn’t switch to resin when tin prices spiked.

Ral Partha did try resin back in the day. They kind of sucked.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #9 on: 13 March 2019, 22:17:46 »
Ral Partha did try resin back in the day. They kind of sucked.

Those where done by another company for Ral Partha back then.

carlisimo

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #10 on: 13 March 2019, 23:45:41 »
Biggest reason there was no switch is the $$$$$ required to do so.

I had no idea. (Not that I would.) I guess I just assumed resin and metal were similar to work with, other than needing to design the gates differently (is that the right word? Channels?). And the equipment that melts either material; I hadn’t thought of that until now.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #11 on: 14 March 2019, 07:07:02 »
Resin (rather than plastic) has similar up-front costs to metal, but is also an expensive material, like tin, and what I have heard is that it wears out the molds faster than metal does, driving up production costs. I don't know for sure how the economics stack up vs. tin in the 2019 market, but I would bet that it is not different enough to justify the cost for IWM to switch.

For injection-molded plastic, I think Speck and others have answered fully already.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #12 on: 14 March 2019, 11:58:25 »
IIRC, a big problem with Ral Partha's blue resin was that it was far more viscous than liquid metal, which meant more miscasts and bubbles. And unlike metal, the resin couldn't be thrown back in the melting pot for re-use.

Plus, yes, I recall hearing it ripped up the moulds more than metal too.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #13 on: 15 March 2019, 15:36:30 »
I know this has been said before, but:

Pros of metal:
  • Cheap mold
  • Miscast parts can be remelted
  • Cheap production machines
Cons: material is more expensive, human worker needed

Metal is great for: low numbers, high detail. Average cost remains approx the same as the unit count increases.

Plastic pros:
  • cheap material
  • Automated
  • bad material can be re-used
Cons:
  • High machinery cost (north of $500,000)
  • High mold cost ($10,000+ is not unheard of per mold)

What plastic is best for: High volume of a limited number of designs. It can make them faster than metal, and the material is pennies. The more you make, the cheaper the unit cost.

Resin pros:
  • High detail
  • Low machinery cost
  • fairly low mold cost
  • Light, and fills space very well
  • strong
Cons:
  • Can lack fine details
  • High material cost
  • difficult casting
  • time sensitive (Resin must be used before it hardens)
  • cannot reuse waste
  • brittle

Resin is best used for: Larger pieces that need to be lighter. Larger pieces that need big voids filled. Low volume, as cost stays consistent over time.
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DarkSpade

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #14 on: 15 March 2019, 17:04:37 »


BattleTech doesn't sell in the volume to justify the investment or start up costs and each mold would cost thousands of dollars.

But CAV does?
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #15 on: 15 March 2019, 17:08:50 »
Reaper is a much bigger company

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #16 on: 15 March 2019, 19:43:24 »

But CAV does?

Doesn't CAV also have you using multiples of the same sculpt? Let's face it, if we could purge the line down to a dozen or two designs, plastic would be much more feasible.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #17 on: 15 March 2019, 20:40:14 »
But would we want that?
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DarkSpade

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #18 on: 15 March 2019, 20:45:43 »
I'm not expecting IWM to just ditch metal over night or to ever swap the entire catalog to plastic.  If we want plastic battletech mechs though, I'd think they'd be in a better position to deliver than most.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #19 on: 15 March 2019, 20:58:38 »
If we want plastic battletech mechs though, I'd think they'd be in a better position to deliver than most.
Considering all the information given above, how so?

DarkSpade

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #20 on: 15 March 2019, 21:43:00 »
They're already in the minis making business, and more importantly, they've already got the license to do so for Battletech.  At worst, they have all the same hurdles Catalyst has, but without the restriction of only making box sets.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #21 on: 15 March 2019, 21:56:30 »
Is there any mini that sells well enough to justify the costs of switching to plastic?
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #22 on: 16 March 2019, 00:27:54 »
Is there any mini that sells well enough to justify the costs of switching to plastic?

No.  There's a reason Catalyst gets box sets produced overseas by companies that already have the equipment.

In order to break even on plastics, IWM would have to be able to move tens of thousands of units and that just doesn't happen.  When the archive existed in its precious incarnation, a mini was archived when it sold fewer than five units in a year.  The volume just simply isn't there.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #23 on: 16 March 2019, 08:02:25 »
And A LOT of units got archived.

How far are we off from commercially viable 3D printing? If models are moved in such small quantities, it’s a quality concern?

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #24 on: 16 March 2019, 08:15:16 »
Is there any mini that sells well enough to justify the costs of switching to plastic?

No.

abou

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #25 on: 16 March 2019, 11:01:12 »
Not to dogpile, but BattleTech as a game does not require a lot of minis on the board to play. So there just isn't the demand. Maybe IWM could do a plastic Atlas or Timber Wolf, but only maybe. Even then one or two minis wouldn't make up the cost of investment.

IWM had to do Kickstarters for the Spectral LAMs and for their Chaos Wars phase and none of those combined raised the millions they would need for plastics. It just simply can't happen. Reaper can do CAV plastics, but they already had the machines and therefore only needed the molds.

Sorry, man, just not financially viable.

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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #26 on: 16 March 2019, 19:52:41 »
I'm not sure that its even worth the cost for this, but, the ONE thing I can think of that might be worth making in plastic......... is the Hex Bases themselves.

Is a single mold & you need them for all the minis.  (Assuming the mini isn't made with one)

Simple cast, & mass quantity.

Not that I think even that one option is worth the switch, but if I had to think of 1 thing they could "possibly" look to do, it would be those.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #27 on: 16 March 2019, 22:52:00 »


IWM had to do Kickstarters for the Spectral LAM’s

And that kickstarter was After they had blown through several thousand raised by fans in a traditional manner looking into metal alternatives just for the Master.

So its not just that plastics are not viable on a spreadsheet. THEY TRIED on a small scale and couldn’t get off the ground
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #28 on: 17 March 2019, 00:57:07 »
I'm not sure that its even worth the cost for this, but, the ONE thing I can think of that might be worth making in plastic......... is the Hex Bases themselves.

Is a single mold & you need them for all the minis.  (Assuming the mini isn't made with one)

Simple cast, & mass quantity.

Not that I think even that one option is worth the switch, but if I had to think of 1 thing they could "possibly" look to do, it would be those.

Ral Partha Europe, and IIRC Chessex, already make plastic hexbases. Just saying.
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Re: How about some IWM plastics?
« Reply #29 on: 17 March 2019, 10:35:20 »
Ral Partha Europe, and IIRC Chessex, already make plastic hexbases. Just saying.

Interesting.  I was unaware of this.

Are they connected with IWM?

Or were just saying that so I can go get some from them? :)

Either way, its maybe the 1 area where IWM might be able to turn a profit investing in plastics.  Maybe.   I'm not sure even that is worth the cost.  But it does fit the bill of simple & mass quantity.
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