3145 Era unit discussion

[jackpot4]

The biggest beauty of all Sartris is that if you want those restrictions are your table, do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you want old gear gone, don't use anything except this era's TRO mechs, the nuseen, and the new tech variants.  You and your group have 100% control over the games and restrictions you have at your table.  For example, our group banned the use of C3, TAG, alternate ammos, and a few other things because of how gamey they get. 

For someone like me that loves so many points across the entirely of the universe's lifespan and loves using my imagination it have no hesitation or difficulty explaining why a House unit would want to produce a Star League Royal mech.  Why would you just use a bunch of modern glass hammer XL engines and gyros?  Why not go with a reliable zombie mech that has stood the test of time, both from 2800 to 3150 and 35 years in our time? 

I could draw a parallel to the last season of Game of Thrones (SPOILER), one huge issue was where the army she attacked King's Landing with came from.  Easy, a couple companies of Unsullied were holding Casterly rock, ports, and bridges between the North and South.  Groups of Dothraki were patrolling South of Winterfell to ensure they were not sneaked up on by Cersei.  They then rallied as Jon marched South.  I have been chewed out multiple times online because I had to create that very easy to comprehend narrative rather than be told it in the show. 

New players have it easy to join.  They borrow units, explore sarna, check out IWM, they can play with other's mechs to start and get a feel for speed, lasers, missiles, autocannons and more.  If they want, they can be like me, I purchase mainly because I like the look of a mini.  The weaponry may play some part but I will field a mech I love the look of 9 times out of 10 and it is even better when there are multiple variants to choose from. 

Like I said, family mechs, hordes of House and Clan mothballed mechs, Star league caches, retooled factories, etc. etc. all leads to the widest variety of mechs available in universe right now in 3150. 

[Sartris]

The biggest beauty of all Sartris is that if you want those restrictions are your table, do it.  No one is stopping you.  If you want old gear gone, don't use anything except this era's TRO mechs, the nuseen, and the new tech variants.  You and your group have 100% control over the games and restrictions you have at your table.  For example, our group banned the use of C3, TAG, alternate ammos, and a few other things because of how gamey they get. 

here's the thing. the game has to be sold to people. it has to be coherent and make sense and flow nicely. the current mess of 3500 units doesn't do that. i've dug through the game's material for years trying to find inroads. the real solution is to cut the fat.

New players have it easy to join. 

sorry. i snorted so hard i almost woke up the baby. i mean it is now with the new paradigm but helping an agent organize events for the years before that? lmao.

[Adrian Gideon]

Sartris is very close to enlightenment. The last level to attain—the one that is nearly unattainable—is the realization that arguing these truths with people is wasteful of one’s time and energy.

Or maybe there is no spoon, or something.

[Scotty]

Sartris is very close to enlightenment. The last level to attain—the one that is nearly unattainable—is the realization that arguing these truths with people is wasteful of one’s time and energy.

Or maybe there is no spoon, or something.

I got a pretty good kick out of this post.

I also wouldn't mind having a stable of designs that are widespread enough and common enough to form the core of any given state military that are maintained throughout the ages with variants that are both visually relatively consistent but also that have a modern variant in all ages of play.  Outside that core group having dozens or hundreds of here-one-decade-gone-the-next 'Mech designs that add era-specific flavor on demand isn't an outrageous burden on the game.

tl;dr if I show a new player the Game of Armored Combat the selling point should be "This is the box set for BattleTech" and not "this is the box set for BattleTech but mostly just in 3025 and after that most of these designs don't see much use"

[Colt Ward]

For example, our group banned the use of C3, TAG, alternate ammos, and a few other things because of how gamey they get. 

For someone like me that loves so many points across the entirely of the universe's lifespan and loves using my imagination it have no hesitation or difficulty explaining why a House unit would want to produce a Star League Royal mech.  Why would you just use a bunch of modern glass hammer XL engines and gyros?  Why not go with a reliable zombie mech that has stood the test of time, both from 2800 to 3150 and 35 years in our time? 

Like I said, family mechs, hordes of House and Clan mothballed mechs, Star league caches, retooled factories, etc. etc. all leads to the widest variety of mechs available in universe right now in 3150.

So . . . paid for in BV, paid for in BV, sometimes paid for in BV or weight, and other things are 'gamey?'  Its funny b/c general player opinion I have seen is that C3/C3i is rarely worth it in BV matched games- especially since at that rules level ECM is not able to go ECCM mode, so 'easy' counter.  TAG only matters if you have Homing artillery or SG ammo- the latter is a major fluffy point for the League.  Alternate ammos, especially ACs, if not used negates a lot of post-3050s designs that use the old style ACs- already addressed SG

And mechs in 3145 use XL & XXL engines and XL Gyros to do things they previously could not . . . the Gunsmith uses a XXL engine and a XL Gyro to do things the 3025 Locust cannot easily achieve . . . and would eat your Black Knight 6 (reliable flashbulb SFE zombie) for breakfast on most terrain.  I think the Havoc would as well- just has XL- and it would spot you a couple hundred BV.  Or to keep it in the same weight bracket- the Lament 3R, XL Gyro & Engine though the BK would get some pilot improvements.

[Sartris]

Sartris is very close to enlightenment. The last level to attain—the one that is nearly unattainable—is the realization that arguing these truths with people is wasteful of one’s time and energy.

Or maybe there is no spoon, or something.

it's most on-brand for me to make the wrong decision that most resembles the right one and then stare off into space as the curb your enthusiasm music plays in the background

[Scotty]

So . . . paid for in BV, paid for in BV, sometimes paid for in BV or weight, and other things are 'gamey?'

iATMs have a BV.  It is identical to regular ATMs.  Clearly that's an issue, but strictly speaking they still have a BV.  Your point requires the underlying assumption that BV is inherently balanced at all extremes, which I'm sure several people on this board would gleefully dispute.

jackpot4's group has identified a selection of areas where, BV or not, certain equipment and combinations are seen as unfair or un-fun.  I'm sure that arguing about it is going to change their minds.

EDIT: and that's not even getting started on the tangent that I'm pretty sure started out as a pretty major misinterpretation of jackpot4's point in the direction of "you shouldn't use new things" when he was definitely saying "sometimes you want the durable stuff".

EDIT AGAIN: for mistaking who was being quoted

[Sartris]

not my group. we didn't use C3 because we hate math. and ecm. but mostly math.

[jackpot4]

3500 units?  I have Solaris Skunk Werks, have been all over Sarna, and been playing for 5 years, it has never felt like a massive heap of information to dig through for variants.  I may go variant by variant on the one I am excited about at the moment, I see one, all I think is......."well that's stupid", then I jump to the next one and forget about it. 

Should a new player ask about the mechs in the box sets I would just say they have variants that work in the early eras and variants that run well in the current era.  You start to get back into the argument of players and their effort/time/etc. they dedicate to the hobby.  If they want to play and dedicate the time they can get a grasp on how the game works.  Pick a mech you like the look of, look at the variants, find one you like.  Do that 4 times, you have lance, play them together, think about how it went, try other variants next time, expand from there.  To me it is an incredibly simple and easy process.  I really think people are overthinking this and trying to get waaaaaay too much info in waaaaaaay too fast.  Uncle Atom even covered this topic.........Pa-Chow....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d7p_6D-bmo

And to echo Scotty yes, that was my point.  I love the Lament, Gunsmith, Vulpes, etc.  But I also love the Royals. 

[Sartris]

you're arguing for a paradigm that no longer exists, sorry. from all indications your experience is not typical - the new product line bears that out.

[mbear]

To me it is an incredibly simple and easy process.

I think this is the point Sartis is trying to make: To you it's an easy process. For others, maybe not so much.

[Sartris]

I think this is the point Sartis is trying to make: To you it's an easy process. For others, maybe not so much.

absolutely this. i've taught the game to a fair number of people over the years i'd consider the average BT customer. the sheer number of resources and information caused far more anxiety than excitement. there's plenty of research that shows people make better decisions (indeed, make a decision in the first place) with less information. the new player experience should offer a taste with clear pathways to more. not a firehose they have to adjust themselves.

[FrozenIceman]

I have Solaris Skunk Werks

SSW has been obsolete for half a decade and is unsupported.  The equipment has not been updated for the latest eratta and the BV 2.0 calculations diverge by as much as 10% per unit.  I recommend switching over the Mega Mech Lab, it is the only tool I have come across that calculates (and matches the MUL) the numbers properly (I verified via hand calculations for infantry).

Love it or hate it, SSW will not provide an even playing field for your games.

[jackpot4]

What is the link for Mega Mech Lab?  Is it the sourceforge place that google brings up?

[Sartris]

they use github now but always have the latest builds at https://www.megamek.org/

[jackpot4]

I saw there was a forum for the program.  Just ran an initial test and the BV is the same as SSW, Ill look into some other units.

[Empyrus]

SSW is for most part reasonable still when it comes to BV calculations.
If it is not, one can just look up the correct BV from MUL and ignore SSW's reported BV.

And to echo Scotty yes, that was my point.  I love the Lament, Gunsmith, Vulpes, etc.  But I also love the Royals. 

This reminds me, i need to check which Royal designs are available circa 3150. A lot got put back into production during the Jihad but which ones stayed?

[Sartris]

A limited number it appears. The Ostroc and Highlander are on the IS general list. Some factions have more than others but it’s not a huge number (one to five-ish)

[SCC]

SSW is for most part reasonable still when it comes to BV calculations.
If it is not, one can just look up the correct BV from MUL and ignore SSW's reported BV.
This reminds me, i need to check which Royal designs are available circa 3150. A lot got put back into production during the Jihad but which ones stayed?

If resources existed to put the Royals back into production then how did RetroTech become a thing?

[dgorsman]

You're not making Royal designs in a refit facilty (especially sourcing the advanced weapons, engines, etc. from off world and possibly destroyed factories), but certainly RetroTech with simpler equipment. Making several of the latter for every one (maybe, maybe not if supplies are unreliable) of the former is probably the better choice.

[nckestrel]

If resources existed to put the Royals back into production then how did RetroTech become a thing?

The same way Hesperus II makes Berserkers while the Marian Hegemony struggles to make a Centurion CN9-A.  The Inner Sphere is not a single place.

[Sartris]

If you look at the objectives series you see why they went with retro tech. The sheer number of lines they opened gave the quantity a quality all its own

[mmmpi]

I must be missing something - I don't get it.   ???

This was pretty much what I was planning to do.  Buy the coolest model of whichever mech I wanted to run, and just use a time period appropriate record sheet for it.

[mmmpi]

absolutely this. i've taught the game to a fair number of people over the years i'd consider the average BT customer. the sheer number of resources and information caused far more anxiety than excitement. there's plenty of research that shows people make better decisions (indeed, make a decision in the first place) with less information. the new player experience should offer a taste with clear pathways to more. not a firehose they have to adjust themselves.

The other side of that is that more options isn't bad.  Sure, limit them during the introduction.  Show them the stuff that's common in the era your group plays, but once they're set and familiar, then let them explore the wider, larger game universe. 

[Sartris]

Diminishing returns. What’s the difference between 2000 and 3000 variants? It’s not just exploring, it’s getting ten new load outs to contend with at a game you’ll never see again. To a new player, that just feels unfair. and remember that “new” in terms of BT fans is probably based around the CGL takeover. If you caught on right away congrats you’re not typical. The other nine went on to something else. I see plenty of new book lots on eBay that are clearly people who put in about $500 and bailed.

Not every model has to work in every era. The MUL team’s approach is a more cautious prune  than I’d do but it’s on the right track. Especially now that the majority of the line’s efforts are going into the succession wars and clan invasion. If future eras were so popular they wouldn’t have literally shuttered the line for a year and gone to one dark age sourcebook every blue moon. It may well be nearly two years between shattered fortress and ilclan. Too many units. Too much gear bloat. Too many fans alienated by the story. After seeing what TPTB have going, I’m a convert. The line shouldn’t go from curated garden to the Wild West of unit selection. It’s the same fatal problem, just delayed a step.

For the classics porting forward, the problem is that because of the HG settlement, there are no variants for non-Phoenix designs after 3051. The easiest solution would be to just sort of forget about project Phoenix and be like “yeah... corean was wilin out on LSD in the 3060s and turned out some really... interesting prototypes but rest assured most in the field looked like the originals”

[mmmpi]

In your opinion.

[Sartris]

Thanks I wasn’t sure I was getting that across by stating clearly subjective viewpoints   ::). In my opinion your opinion is harmful to the health of the game. Do what you want and home but it’s not the way forward. We’ve got ten years of slippage to show for it. Tiny print runs, diminishing product output. Too many crowds to please. We’re well past due for the spring cleaning we’re finally getting.

[mmmpi]

Then I suppose you have metrics for that?

Because frankly, the other suggestions were far better than yours. 

[Sartris]

In your opinion. You want to preserve the way you play reflected in the rules. That may not be the best for paying CGL’s bills.

Metrics: they moved away from what you want at the base of the line. The waves will reach other eras in time.

[Weirdo]

** mod notice **

Tone things down a few notches. Now.