Author Topic: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?  (Read 11884 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #60 on: 20 June 2019, 11:27:23 »

The problem going by big general eras is that they're so big. TRO Succession Wars has units that were extinct for half the Succession Wars. It also includes units that weren't introduced until the Succession Wars were nearly over.

The Hatchetman was introduced in 3023 so it's available in 3025. It isn't available in for most of the Succession Wars. And yes, the fluff in TRO:Succession Wars says when the Hatchetman was introduced but it being in book called "Succession Wars" gives the impression that it is available thorough the Succession Wars.  The Talos was used up until the early Succession Wars so it also wouldn't be available for just about all of the Succession Wars.

Going by year though you know that the units are available. Players would still know what era it is. A reprint of TRO:3025 could easily have "Succession Wars" printed on the cover. Better yet it could have Fourth Succession War era put on it so new players have an even better idea of when to use it.

Going by year also makes it easier to back fill in all unit types. Star League era mechs can be put in TROs dated during the Star League. Reunification era units can be put in TROs dated for the Reunification War. For example the Mk1 LAMs could be in TRO date that fits their fluff, like 2705 or something.

So to be clear, I do not have TRO Succession Wars so I have not seen what is inside or made as part of the OOC introduction but I would imagine it has the same as many of the current books which is to explain the eras and I think offer links to the website & MUL.  The mech entries may also have the icons for the 5 Eras that would be covered in the book- Reunification War, Star League, Early Succession Wars, Late Succession Wars-LosTech, and Late Succession Wars- Recovery.

The new player is not going to care that the era is that big- they are going to care about 'OMG, so many mechs in here!' Also complaining about mechs that are extinct for most of the Succession Wars, like that Talos, is a big strawman argument since all it takes if they are playing any sort of game where the fluff matters is- 'found it in dusty warehouse under a label AgroMech parts' and BOOM its not extinct for them in that game.

Using 'year' TROs does not let you know what units are available- the Savage Coyote was built in '59 (in FMWC) but was not in TRO 3060, it was in TRO 3067.  Same TRO had the Hellfire (appeared FMCC), which was built in '58 . . . which means it was theoretically missing from 2 TROs.  We also had the Cronus, which had a version that was out in the early 3000s, and had a L2 tech version but did not 'appear' in earlier TROs.  TROs have NEVER been strictly 'this is what was made between the last year of the previous TRO and now.'  IF a new player digs in enough to want to get into the story fluff, then the book is going to point them to the website which will lead to the MUL and they can then pick up the timeline- IF they want.

The beauty of TRO Succession Wars as a starting point for new players is it provides a bundle of mechs that they can then play on a relatively equal footing- BV.  They do not need to try to track down the 3 different books and entries in 4 or more to play.

As for a large number of TROs in print, a 3O+ year old game with thousands of units is going to have a lot of TROs. They should be available to players. Yes there's PDF but ebay and used book stores shouldn't be the only way to get print editions.

TRO Succession Wars and its follow on Clan Invasion along with IMO expected other 3 I mentioned do exactly that . . . it puts a omnibus TRO in print, that can be kept in print- just like the Beginner & GoAC Box- so that the foundational products can be kept in print easily.  It makes a LOT more business sense, both from financial and beginner friendly, to have a single TRO covering a era instead of 4 or 5 that by your suggestion a company would have to try to keep in print.  It may not be what you associate with the BT IP, but its a better business approach that is newbie friendly.

The last sentence of my post you quoted is sort of the point, you keep the information flow simple and something they can relate to . . . you may understand the explanation in the previous sentence rattling off all the intricacies and TRO dates but often times that sort of answer is enough to make someone look for a simpler game.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #61 on: 20 June 2019, 11:29:26 »
Pretend you are a new player.  You have just purchased the Game of Armored Combat, and want to know more about the different units you can use.  In the short story included in the box, you have learned that the Succession Wars are still ongoing, but don't have much of an idea about for how long and the only years mentioned in the short story are around 3000.

You approach the boom shelf.  You see a dozen books, all called "Technical Readout" and then four digits you can at least infer is supposed to be the year.

Do you pick:

-2750
-3025
-3026
-3039
-3050
-3055
-3058
-3060
-3067
-3075
-3085

Hmm.  None of those match what year you know.  Half of them look like they're from the 80s (because they are)  You could pick one at random and open it up to see what's inside, then another, then another.  What the hell is a Snub-Nose PPC?  What are MMLs?  What does ECM do?   Why does this Locust look different than the one you have?  There are no answers, you need another book for that.  You are not told which book.  Frustrated, you set the books back down and might try later.  Maybe.

Now pretend the TROs are organized by era.  You walk in, and sitting on the shelf is TRO Succession Wars, along with Star League, Clan Invasion, FedCom Civil War, Jihad, and Dark Age.  You don't know what any of those other ones are, but Succession Wars sounds familar!  All of the Mechs you've been playing with are right there.  This must be the right book.

You buy it and leave.  Next time, secure in the foundation of your new hobby, you resolve to pick another one to see what else there is out there.
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Adrian Gideon

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #62 on: 20 June 2019, 11:39:09 »
“But Scotty, I’ve been playing for 35 years and that doesn’t affect me. But change does. New players—new customers—need to bend to 35 years of OOP products so we can be on the same page.”
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #63 on: 20 June 2019, 12:28:29 »
“But Scotty, I’ve been playing for 35 years and that doesn’t affect me. But change does. New players—new customers—need to bend to 35 years of OOP products so we can be on the same page.”

I like you.

Anecdotal story time: I've got two kids. I've played Alpha Strike with both of them (started them young and it was what they could handle.) After they showed some interest thanks to my horridly-painted minis, I offered to get them some minis of their own. I got them each two things: a lance pack of plastic mechs, and a box set of pre-painted, cartoonishly large Clickytech minis. I then sat down with them and helped them paint the minis in their lance pack, and secretly touched them up a bit after they went to bed. So, given that they had both, and even had some agency in making the lance pack minis their own, wanna guess which ones come down from their rooms 90% of the time when they want to play? The Clickytech ones. Why? Because they look better. No other reason, just that. My son KNOWS that his Neanderthal is going to get murdered before it can get into range with that hatchet, and he STILL brings it every time because he loves the way it looks.

Next story: I took the boy with me to Origins recently and walked him around the CGL booth while I bought every new battletech thing I could find (Yes, I have a problem.) Know what his favorite thing was in the whole booth? The T-Shirt with the full-color image of the Red Duke's marauder on it.

My point in all this, other than encouraging people to brainwash their kids into liking BattleTech, is that many people (especially younger ones) are very visual. Fantastic art really is enough to get people interested in a product. Hell, the large-sized minis at the CGL game area and the man-sized Awesome got as much attention and as many people stopping for a look as the actual game tables did while I was at Origins. If those large-sized minis had been painted, they would have needed a mop to deal with all the drool! Modern art that is comparable in quality to competing products in the market is absolutely important. It isn't the ONLY thing that's important, but it is more than just nice to have. It is necessary. It isn't necessary to re-do ALL of the mech designs, but they certainly need to do some of them to keep up with the times. That's just good business.

Oh, and to respond to some earlier comments I missed:

Jenner IIC: Don't like it. It's better than the original Jenner, but too cartoonish and un-interesting for my taste. I still prefer the MWO version to the tabletop IIC version.

IWM making the 25mm infantry: I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that the only reason it is happening, and also the only reason new vehicle minis are made at all, is due to fan funding. They aren't being made outside of folks putting up money up-front to make it happen. Like it or not, Mechs are the star of the show in BattleTech.

Adrian Gideon

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #64 on: 20 June 2019, 12:38:49 »
What’s the initial draw to a faction? The political-socioeconomics?
The logo and the colors.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #65 on: 20 June 2019, 12:42:58 »
What’s the initial draw to a faction? The political-socioeconomics?
The logo and the colors.

Can confirm.

Chose Clan Steel Viper because cool snake, migrated to Clan Ghost Bear because sweet winter camo and bears.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #66 on: 20 June 2019, 12:43:03 »
My friend was in charge of a Marik unit on Multiplayer BattleTech and I was conscripted. I stayed for the soft glow of raging dumpster fires

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slh

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #67 on: 20 June 2019, 12:50:43 »
What’s the initial draw to a faction? The political-socioeconomics?
The logo and the colors.

Not me, but then that was back when "choose a faction" wasn't as prominent a thing, so it came as a side effect of story/universe rather than something that was expected to be done.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #68 on: 20 June 2019, 13:15:04 »
What’s the initial draw to a faction? The political-socioeconomics?
The logo and the colors.

Honestly, I was initially drawn to the Lyrans when I was a neophyte because they were the protagonist faction in the old Crescent Hawks PC games which introduced me to the setting.

Colt Ward

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #69 on: 20 June 2019, 13:28:57 »
Do you pick:

-2750
-3025
-3026
-3039
-3050
-3055
-3058
-3060
-3067
-3075
-3085

It gets worse, which when I started counting them up was made clear . . . because you have 3057, VA & Prototypes, then you have things like Revised and Upgrades for 3050, 3055, 3057, 3058.  I know some stores I had visited over the years had a 3058 and 3058 Revised sitting together b/c the stocker did not know the difference (bookstore) or care about it either.  Oh and 3145 & 3150 . . . so something like 22 published TROs before we get into PDF exclusives.
Colt Ward
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nckestrel

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #70 on: 20 June 2019, 13:42:31 »
Poor Project Phoenix.
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Colt Ward

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #71 on: 20 June 2019, 13:46:30 »
See?  yet one more . . . and I thought I had gotten all of them that were published.  Thought remembering Prototypes was a feat, yet let Phoenix slip.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #72 on: 20 June 2019, 14:39:32 »
Poor Project Phoenix.

It has Prototypes to keep it company.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #73 on: 20 June 2019, 15:05:50 »
What’s the initial draw to a faction? The political-socioeconomics?
The logo and the colors.
You really need to qualify that with a "usually" or "for most people" (which is exactly what a profit seeking entity needs to consider).  The political-socioeconomics is in fact what drew me to the Federated Suns initially (seriously, a libertarian paradise, granted only at the federal level... individual worlds vary widely... which is exactly the point).  Yellow is probably my least favorite color, and green is my favorite.  And yes, the Capellans are my least favorite Great House.

Point taken on modern mass marketing, but don't expect a lot of grognard sympathy.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #74 on: 20 June 2019, 15:08:26 »
I would have if I were worried about pedantry, but there isn’t any of that on this forum, so I’m in the clear.  ;D
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #75 on: 20 June 2019, 15:14:20 »
Heh... just don't not expect to not be called on it by SOMEONE around here...  ^-^

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #76 on: 20 June 2019, 16:08:02 »
It has Prototypes to keep it company.
DropSips and JumpShips was also missing.

Colt Ward

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #77 on: 20 June 2019, 16:09:05 »
Did TRO3057 and TRO3057r
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

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worktroll

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #78 on: 20 June 2019, 16:20:15 »
Point taken on modern mass marketing, but don't expect a lot of grognard sympathy.

And grognard sympathy may be proportional to grognard dollars. Between "I already have enough of X", "I won't buy anything that isn't focussed on faction X", "I won't buy anything which doesn't focus on period X", and "I won't buy anything which includes faction/period Z", many - not all, but I would argue a very significant proportion - of grognards are not peak buyers.

My reasonably large collection of books, boxes, and minis - which I accumulated since 1984 - does not give CGL any revenue.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #79 on: 20 June 2019, 16:29:09 »
Good point on revenue, but I would like to point out all the "fan funding" IWM pulls in, and the fact that a number of self-identified grognards have kept the flame alive through the darkest times.  Grognards shouldn't be completely ignored, even if they're not a majority opinion.  The effect hardened minorities can have on a community shouldn't be forgotten due to a long list of Rule 4 reasons.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #80 on: 20 June 2019, 16:37:41 »
Most grognards seem pretty happy with the new Classics. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #81 on: 20 June 2019, 16:38:51 »
They’re literally having a Kickstarter in featuring the most recognizable symbols of  grognardism (allowable by international patent law) and a return of the entire line to the game’s roots, I don’t see much to lament in an alleged forgotten status

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #82 on: 20 June 2019, 16:56:32 »
And neither point is in conflict with mine...

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #83 on: 20 June 2019, 17:58:14 »
You know, CGL gets nothing out of fan funding minis? IWM does.

And I'm totally cool with that, because a) it helps IWM, and b) helps keep those grognards happy, who may buy CGL stuff. But let's be honest - the availability of a Bellerephon isn't going to get CGL any new fans buying things.
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Adrian Gideon

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #84 on: 20 June 2019, 18:12:47 »
The fan funding argument breaks apart when you look at it closely. It’s actually been a point of contention for some time. But I don’t have time to get into it right now, I’ll let others die on that hill.
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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #85 on: 20 June 2019, 18:38:24 »
Interesting... I look forward to hearing the arguments given that this whole industry is focused on the long tail... nobody in gaming is selling Coca Cola, cars, or anything else truly mass market.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #86 on: 20 June 2019, 18:56:03 »
Sure people are! Monopoly, Cluedo, jigsaw puzzles. You find it in WalMart, it's mass market.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #87 on: 20 June 2019, 19:41:28 »
Not exactly the gaming industry I meant, but point taken.

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #88 on: 21 June 2019, 13:21:35 »
I have no idea why this community is so cagey when it comes to aesthetics, I stopped posting fan art here because some one always needs to point out what I'm doing wrong   

Your comparing games based off historical events to a game that's science fantasy.

I'm saying that units from one era shouldn't necessarily have the same aesthetics as units that are brand new.



So to be clear, I do not have TRO Succession Wars so I have not seen what is inside or made as part of the OOC introduction but I would imagine it has the same as many of the current books which is to explain the eras and I think offer links to the website & MUL.  The mech entries may also have the icons for the 5 Eras that would be covered in the book- Reunification War, Star League, Early Succession Wars, Late Succession Wars-LosTech, and Late Succession Wars- Recovery.

If you're going to just put an icon on the units entry page, does it matter what TRO year it's printed in? And why put it in Succession Wars if its only available in Reunification War?


Quote
The new player is not going to care that the era is that big- they are going to care about 'OMG, so many mechs in here!' Also complaining about mechs that are extinct for most of the Succession Wars, like that Talos, is a big strawman argument since all it takes if they are playing any sort of game where the fluff matters is- 'found it in dusty warehouse under a label AgroMech parts' and BOOM its not extinct for them in that game.

There's a difference between choose your unit and fight games and using canon forces games. New players do read the fluff so they are going to notice things like availability. Yes, there's always the mislabeled unit found in a warehouse or some other reason for a player to use an extinct machine. However they're still not going to be generally available, especially if they haven't been introduced yet. A Player playing Kuritan forces isn't likely to have a Von Rohrs in 3000 as they've been extinct nearly 500 years, nor are they going to have knock off Hatchetman as they won't be introduced for another 23.



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Using 'year' TROs does not let you know what units are available- the Savage Coyote was built in '59 (in FMWC) but was not in TRO 3060, it was in TRO 3067.  Same TRO had the Hellfire (appeared FMCC), which was built in '58 . . . which means it was theoretically missing from 2 TROs.  We also had the Cronus, which had a version that was out in the early 3000s, and had a L2 tech version but did not 'appear' in earlier TROs.  TROs have NEVER been strictly 'this is what was made between the last year of the previous TRO and now.'  IF a new player digs in enough to want to get into the story fluff, then the book is going to point them to the website which will lead to the MUL and they can then pick up the timeline- IF they want.

I never said TROs should be this is what was made in this year. TROs are not sales catalogs offerings. But if its in the TRO by year you knew it was available. Every unit in TRO:3025 is available in 3025. That doesn't mean that there aren't more units available. It even says so in the Introduction, "The latest in a series..." TRO:3026 follows it. It being the latest means there's TROs that come before it. TRO:3025 being the latest also means that it doesn't cover every unit available. TRO:3025 even says that, "It's beyond the scope of this book to include every known war machine." So there shouldn't be any problem with a mech being introduced in 3005 not being included until TRO:3039 as we're only getting a glimpse of what's available. A whole list is for other products and the MUL.


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The beauty of TRO Succession Wars as a starting point for new players is it provides a bundle of mechs that they can then play on a relatively equal footing- BV.  They do not need to try to track down the 3 different books and entries in 4 or more to play.

And you couldn't do that with with older TROs?  ??? Most units in TRO:Succession Wars are from TROs 3025, 3025R, and 3039. Why not just reprint TRO:3039 instead of printing a whole new TRO?


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TRO Succession Wars and its follow on Clan Invasion along with IMO expected other 3 I mentioned do exactly that . . . it puts a omnibus TRO in print, that can be kept in print- just like the Beginner & GoAC Box- so that the foundational products can be kept in print easily.  It makes a LOT more business sense, both from financial and beginner friendly, to have a single TRO covering a era instead of 4 or 5 that by your suggestion a company would have to try to keep in print.  It may not be what you associate with the BT IP, but its a better business approach that is newbie friendly.

It doesn't make sense to give units that aren't available. And unless all the other units are going to be retconned out of existence, you're going to need more TROs to include them. So you're still going to have multiple TROs. Why not be more accurate with the TROs? If by year is too much, why not by war? Why not a TRO: Third Succession War with every unit included being used at some point in that war? And why not include Introduction and Extinction Dates in the entry? Why make players look up that information?



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The last sentence of my post you quoted is sort of the point, you keep the information flow simple and something they can relate to . . . you may understand the explanation in the previous sentence rattling off all the intricacies and TRO dates but often times that sort of answer is enough to make someone look for a simpler game.

What's more simpler than, "These are some of the units available at this date?" Why give me a book that's suppose to have units available and then find out they're not?  It'd be telling me TRO:1945 gives me units available during WWII and then telling me I can't use the Sherman until 1942?

Scotty

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Re: So when do we see the new 3050/3055 art?
« Reply #89 on: 21 June 2019, 13:32:20 »
EDIT: to make empty-quoting myself less obnoxious looking, this quoted post was not formulated as a guess.  It also addresses everything you just posted except for "what about units not available during <year>?", to which the answer is "A new player probably doesn't know enough to arbitrarily restrict units by year, and even if they do they're not required to."

Pretend you are a new player.  You have just purchased the Game of Armored Combat, and want to know more about the different units you can use.  In the short story included in the box, you have learned that the Succession Wars are still ongoing, but don't have much of an idea about for how long and the only years mentioned in the short story are around 3000.

You approach the boom shelf.  You see a dozen books, all called "Technical Readout" and then four digits you can at least infer is supposed to be the year.

Do you pick:

-2750
-3025
-3026
-3039
-3050
-3055
-3058
-3060
-3067
-3075
-3085

Hmm.  None of those match what year you know.  Half of them look like they're from the 80s (because they are)  You could pick one at random and open it up to see what's inside, then another, then another.  What the hell is a Snub-Nose PPC?  What are MMLs?  What does ECM do?   Why does this Locust look different than the one you have?  There are no answers, you need another book for that.  You are not told which book.  Frustrated, you set the books back down and might try later.  Maybe.

Now pretend the TROs are organized by era.  You walk in, and sitting on the shelf is TRO Succession Wars, along with Star League, Clan Invasion, FedCom Civil War, Jihad, and Dark Age.  You don't know what any of those other ones are, but Succession Wars sounds familar!  All of the Mechs you've been playing with are right there.  This must be the right book.

You buy it and leave.  Next time, secure in the foundation of your new hobby, you resolve to pick another one to see what else there is out there.
« Last Edit: 21 June 2019, 13:36:04 by Scotty »
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