What mechs would be family heirlooms?

[Greatclub]

Some mechs are more survivable than others. Some have too little armor, some go too slow, some are just too big a threat to not draw copious amounts of aggro.

For example, I'd expect more Marauders to survive to be handed down than Warhammers. Warhammer is an infighter with far too little armor on the legs, with more ammo bombs. Marauder wants to stay in the mid-range and snipe.

What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?

Not:
Wasps, stingers - Anything that dies to a single large laser needs to be off the list
Jenner - Just has nothing going for it survival-wise except speed.
Hunchback - Needs to get in people's face. Not fast enough to get out.
Rifleman, jagermech - At least they're mid-liners, but that's not enough to save them.
Victor - As with the hunchback, but with thin armor for it's size.

Things I'd expect to live forever
Valkyrie - lives in the backline, mobile, decent armor
Griffins - same, but better.
Ostsol- flashbulbs, fast.
Archers - Backliners with very heavy armor
Grasshoppers - just need to ditch the LRM ammo...
Awesome - most irritating thing to kill in 3025.

What do you think?

[Daryk]

I think that list is a great start!

I think Ostscouts (used properly) would last for generations, while Spiders would die much too easily.

Centurions would have a decent chance of being passed down, or at least better than a Trebuchet.

While I absolutely agree about stock Jenners being easy to kill, I think the opposite about Uparmored Jenners.  Three more tons of armor makes all the difference.

[dgorsman]

I'll have to disagree on the OstScout.  Being so valuable for what that do, they would be considered state assets and not awarded.

Atlas and Battlemasters, being common high-level command units, would also be property of high prestige families.

[RifleMech]

I would think just about any mech can be a family heirloom depending on several things.

Is service history - Does it serve on the frontlines or garrison duty?
How good the pilots are. - A better pilot is more likely to bring the mech back than a poor pilot.
If they can keep their mech hidden and until they can get it off planet if their side looses the battle. If they can't it won't stay in the family.

The big question is how functional is the family mech? It'd be easier to get parts for a Wasp than it would be for a Scorpion.

[Greatclub]

Yeah, but on average.

The chaos Irregulars have a mongoose that has been handed down seven generations; it's noted that it is an anomaly. The foxes teeth had a warhammer driver with a heirloom mech, which he lost. Arden Sortek went through three or more Victors, so even if the first was a heirloom (Unknown), the last one was unlikely to be.

Any mech could be handed down, but which are the ones that could be reasonably expected to?

Also, do we have solid information on how somebody could come into possession of a mech? Is it by grant or purchase only, or could salvaging or legitimately finding one (followed by service) lead to ownership? Does that change by era?

[Robroy]

Don't forget that in universe, mech pilots pretty much operated under forced withdraw rules, especially in the Third SW.

Very different then the way most (or some, depending who you ask) players play on a table.

[Bosefius]

Early in the game it was stated (I believe) that the vast majority of mechs were heirlooms. It wasn't until the discovery of the Helm core that this changed, states increased production to the point that most mechs were property of the military, not the family. By the time of the Clan Invasion, and beyond, family owned mechs are the minority.

Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).

[SCC]

Early in the game it was stated (I believe) that the vast majority of mechs were heirlooms. It wasn't until the discovery of the Helm core that this changed, states increased production to the point that most mechs were property of the military, not the family.

This is very much an earlier thing. In Battledroids I don't believe there was any production of new 'Mechs, but this had changed by the time 2nd ed came around, and was likely and thing of the past when 3025 and the first House books came out.

Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).

Here's the other thing, the 'Mech has to remain in the family for several generations for it to become a heirloom, and for any design with low armor, 4 to 6 tons minimum, to moment you encounter any sort of heavy fighting your ride is toast, so designs that don't meet these criteria aren't going to become heirlooms because they don't last long enough.

[dgorsman]

Hmmm... with the low intensity fighting, raids, and ransoms in the period, would there actually be that level of heavy fighting on a regular basis?  According to the lore, MechWarriors would surrender and be ransomed back, or run away (strategic advance to the rear) prior to that kind of catastrophic destruction.

[SCC]

Hmmm... with the low intensity fighting, raids, and ransoms in the period, would there actually be that level of heavy fighting on a regular basis?  According to the lore, MechWarriors would surrender and be ransomed back, or run away (strategic advance to the rear) prior to that kind of catastrophic destruction.

For most 'Mech most likely not, but for anything with low armor like I said won't last long, a Wasp gets into a fight with a Phoenix Hawk and gets it's by the Large Laser and it's game over for the Wasp pilot, he can't retreat, if nothing else happens chances are his family's not getting that Wasp back.

[Colt Ward]

Also remember all those SLDF divisions that went over to the various Houses, their mechs were how they ended up with lands and titles . . . eventually.  Except for the Dracs, we know any SLDF (why?) that joined them had their mechs taken for the elite Drac formations and they got scraps to replace.

[Frabby]

I don't subscribe to the idea that light, poorly armored 'Mechs wouldn't be family heirlooms.

As has been said above, the spare parts situation is much better, to the point where you may be able to keep a Wasp running where a Scorpion is lost to maintenance shortfalls.

But it's also fallacious to base the overall assumption on gamebord performance/longevity. When all you have is that Wasp, then you stay the hell away from things that can dent it. After all, a Wasp is plenty enough to terrorize, subdue and thus rule over most neighborhoods in a universe where a lance can supposedly defend a planet and the total number of functional 'Mechs on a given planet is a two-digit number at most, outside of capitals, staging worlds and factory worlds.

And if you're a merc (or a House retainer - much the same thing really), then there will be a clause in your contract that makes sure you get a replacement 'Mech if and when your own heirloom 'Mech is lost in the line of duty, much like Ardan Sortek got a new Victor after losing his on Stein's Folly. That's really the only reasonably explanation as to why light 'Mech pilots would often take great risks in gameboard terms and go up against much stronger opponents. They plainly wouldn't do that in a situation where their 'Mech was irreplaceable.

[SCC]

As has been said above, the spare parts situation is much better, to the point where you may be able to keep a Wasp running where a Scorpion is lost to maintenance shortfalls.

This sentence contradicts itself

But it's also fallacious to base the overall assumption on gamebord performance/longevity. When all you have is that Wasp, then you stay the hell away from things that can dent it. After all, a Wasp is plenty enough to terrorize, subdue and thus rule over most neighborhoods in a universe where a lance can supposedly defend a planet and the total number of functional 'Mechs on a given planet is a two-digit number at most, outside of capitals, staging worlds and factory worlds.

You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.

And if you're a merc (or a House retainer - much the same thing really), then there will be a clause in your contract that makes sure you get a replacement 'Mech if and when your own heirloom 'Mech is lost in the line of duty, much like Ardan Sortek got a new Victor after losing his on Stein's Folly. That's really the only reasonably explanation as to why light 'Mech pilots would often take great risks in gameboard terms and go up against much stronger opponents. They plainly wouldn't do that in a situation where their 'Mech was irreplaceable.

Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.

[Starfury]

Any Mech could be an heirloom. There are plenty of examples in both the novels and the sourcebooks, ranging from Sergeant Tracy Maxwell Kent of the Gray Death Legion's Phoenix Hawk to Hanse Davion's Battlemaster, to Yen Lo Wang.  As for family access, it's going to vary more by region, wealth and production than anything else.  Wasps, Locusts and such would be super common given how large the production runs were, followed by the 55 ton animal trio, the Phoenix Hawk, Centurions, and so on. Heavies and assaults are far more rare. 

Of course the feudal Mechwarrior families start to vanish as the Succesion Wars draw to a close and the Clans destroy units wholesale. The increase in production/technology and death of older personnel makes professional armies more appealing to the various powers, and the families are forced to upgrade, go merc, sell off their equipment, or fade away.

[RifleMech]

This sentence contradicts itself

You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.

Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.

No he's saying that some mechs, like I did earlier, that some mechs have a greater availability of spare parts than others. There's far more Wasps than there are Scoprions so it'd be easier for a family to keep a Wasp functioning than it would be a Scorpion. That said Scorpions can be a family mech. There's one in 3025. There's also a Stinger LAM that's a family mech.


I don't see why. It wouldn't require a great Wasp pilot to take over a neighborhood. I'm also not sure how well trained the pilot would need to be to run away in the face of bigger opposition. Breaking contact in a Wasp after taking a hit from a large laser might require a better pilot though.

True, there's always ways a family could lose their mech with no replacement. That's why being dispossessed was a big fear for mech pilots. They'd even take mech to avoid being without one.

[Frabby]

This sentence contradicts itself

Probably a misunderstanding, as RifleMech wrote above.

You're proposing something that this likely impossible, that contradicts the basic mentality of MechWarriors, and that most would likely not be well trained enough to perform.

Care to explain? You can rule a periphery planet with a Wasp. Why would you put the 'Mech in danger in a fight against any other opponents that low-tech infantry?

Assuming that the Merc company you joined isn't destroyed, leaving your family high and dry, or that the structure isn't such that there are no 'Mechs to give your family, or that your employer or the house military you joined doesn't find some other way to short you, family owned 'Mechs are not going to be good choices, the contract says they have to give you a 'Mech, well there going to give you the one they want the least.

Obviously. There's a million pitfalls to being a mercenary and this is one of them; but at the same time this is handwaved into a workable mercenary business in the BT universe by ComStar and later the MRBC being a fair arbitrator of mercenary affairs. So we can expect suitable clauses in the fine print of the standard MRB/MRBC forms. You can still lose a lot (right down to your life) but fear of being dispossessed won't keep you from mercing out this way.

[Orin J.]

the only things that stand out to me for heirloom status are 1: not possessed of any critical design flaws that would impede maintain it (Stares meaningfully at a Clint) 2: not boasting any sort of highly valuable function where the military would feel the need to force turnover of the 'mech for the good of the state (like the Rifleman's anti-air radar).

But i'd bet most 'mechs that are maintained for a long time by a family would be medium or light 'mechs with a good nod to range and mobility, to better let them retreat as needed to avoid losing the 'mech to damage. most heavy and assault 'mechs would mostly be too expensive to keep up with being that they're frequently placed on the front lines. sure you might find things like the Goliath or Banshee sometimes, but an Awesome is gonna end up expensive to repair fast and i'd bet a private owner that needs to maintain their own ride for combat would see some real advantages in a deal to swap it for a Griffion if it means they can get a deal in supplies for a while and the state gets to fill out their assault forces.

[Daryk]

I could totally see a stock Banshee being handed down again, and again, and again...  ::)

[massey]

I think there would be tons of Wasps and Stingers that were heirloom mechs.

First of all, you've got to think about how they're being used.  If that Wasp is all that stands between you and being dispossessed, then you aren't going to risk it unless you have to.  You are on a scouting mission and you see a Phoenix Hawk on the horizon?  You radio back that you've located the enemy, and you are disengaging.  You are going to stay like 3 mapsheets away if you can help it at all, and the closer he gets the more you are going to try to break LOS and get the hell out of there.  Of course, the Phoenix Hawk pilot is likewise not especially keen to engage you, because his mech is an heirloom as well.  If he knows you've got a Griffin about 5 miles back, he's only gonna chase you so far.

Most of your Wasp's actual battles are going to be things like this:  3 squads of rebels are trying to raid a supply depot.  They have some trucks that they've bolted armor panels onto.  Show up, blast the trucks, pick off the rebels with your medium laser, and if one of them has a missile launcher shoot him first.  Then return for repairs.  99% of your fights are extremely low intensity.  The only time you willingly engage another mech is when you think you're going to win (which is very infrequent for a Wasp pilot).

[snewsom2997]

Some mechs are more survivable than others. Some have too little armor, some go too slow, some are just too big a threat to not draw copious amounts of aggro.

For example, I'd expect more Marauders to survive to be handed down than Warhammers. Warhammer is an infighter with far too little armor on the legs, with more ammo bombs. Marauder wants to stay in the mid-range and snipe.

What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?

Not:
Wasps, stingers - Anything that dies to a single large laser needs to be off the list
Jenner - Just has nothing going for it survival-wise except speed.
Hunchback - Needs to get in people's face. Not fast enough to get out.
Rifleman, jagermech - At least they're mid-liners, but that's not enough to save them.
Victor - As with the hunchback, but with thin armor for it's size.

Things I'd expect to live forever
Valkyrie - lives in the backline, mobile, decent armor
Griffins - same, but better.
Ostsol- flashbulbs, fast.
Archers - Backliners with very heavy armor
Grasshoppers - just need to ditch the LRM ammo...
Awesome - most irritating thing to kill in 3025.

What do you think?

Heirlooms
Marauders (Even with the paltry armor)
Warhammers (Especially the 6D with extra Armor)
Thunderbolts (Zombie Mech all around)

These three are more than likely tough and valuable enough to last long enough to be passed to the next generation.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wasps, Stingers, and Locusts could easily become heirloom mechs simply for the fact that they're not big threats on a battlefield and consequently not priority targets.

[Elmoth]

Archer. 100k produced. Some of those need to be in family hands.

[Daryk]

I don't think anyone would question that assertion...

[CrossfirePilot]

I could totally see a stock Banshee being handed down again, and again, and again...  ::)

I totally see that.  "should we invite Chaucy on the raid?", "No man, he has that stupid banshee that he thinks is the shiznit! and we all know we would be better served by filling that extra dropship bay with ammo and TP"

Reminds me of a kid that was given an old station wagon in high school and spent his time talking about how it was hotter than a camero…

So even though his mech is 400 years old, it has seen exactly 3 battles

[Colt Ward]

So Eric Forman is a Banshee pilot?

[DOC_Agren]

Warhammers, Tbolts, Archers, Battlemasters, any of the 3025 55 tonners,  Centurion, Panther

but post clan invasion, most military went back to profession military so most privae mechs would be in the hands of Mercs

[glitterboy2098]

Imo, any mech made before about 3000ad could be a family mech, when you consider things like warriors being rewarded some land and title to their ride in return for merit. But i suspect many would have been former SLDF machines originally. Also that if lost, a family mechwarrior probably got priority on anything salvaged, which could mean ending up with a bit of a white elephant.

Post clans the family/personal mech still exists, but it mostly appears in relation to higher nobility and war heroes.

[SCC]

Probably a misunderstanding, as RifleMech wrote above.

Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.

No he's saying that some mechs, like I did earlier, that some mechs have a greater availability of spare parts than others. There's far more Wasps than there are Scoprions so it'd be easier for a family to keep a Wasp functioning than it would be a Scorpion. That said Scorpions can be a family mech. There's one in 3025. There's also a Stinger LAM that's a family mech.


I don't see why. It wouldn't require a great Wasp pilot to take over a neighborhood. I'm also not sure how well trained the pilot would need to be to run away in the face of bigger opposition. Breaking contact in a Wasp after taking a hit from a large laser might require a better pilot though.

True, there's always ways a family could lose their mech with no replacement. That's why being dispossessed was a big fear for mech pilots. They'd even take mech to avoid being without one.

This on the other hand is fundamentally unworkable with what we are shown of how the BT universe works with regards to parts for 'Mechs, the more specific you make 'Mech parts to make this argument work, the less variety there will be in actualy 'Mech designs.

Care to explain? You can rule a periphery planet with a Wasp. Why would you put the 'Mech in danger in a fight against any other opponents that low-tech infantry?

You might not have any choice but to fight someone in another, heavier, 'Mech, the lighter your 'Mech the sooner it happens. Take your example of a Periphery planet, when someone in a Phoenix Hawk shows up you options are run, if you can, or die fighting him.

Obviously. There's a million pitfalls to being a mercenary and this is one of them; but at the same time this is handwaved into a workable mercenary business in the BT universe by ComStar and later the MRBC being a fair arbitrator of mercenary affairs. So we can expect suitable clauses in the fine print of the standard MRB/MRBC forms. You can still lose a lot (right down to your life) but fear of being dispossessed won't keep you from mercing out this way.

A system where it is noted that the majority of companies fail. If you can your buddies form a merc company with your 'Mechs, if you get your 'Mech shot out from under you, you likely aren't getting a new one, and the large units that are properly constructed with the resources to actually provide one may not be hiring guys like you.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.

The Wasp is IIRC the single most common mech in the Inner Sphere.  Replacement parts for one are going to be very easy to come by: everybody's got the mech so everybody's going to be making parts for it.  The Scorpion, by comparison, is extremely rare and as a quad it uses a bunch of parts that are radically unlike those used by any other mech.  Parts are going to be far, far harder to come by and consequently more expensive.

[mmmpi]

Pretty much any mech could be a family mech.  While heavies and assaults are bigger targets, they're also tougher, and lighter mechs won't cross them, even if they're heaviily damaged.  Lights exist in greater numbers, while mediums are tougher and even more numerous.

What it ultimately comes down to though is:  Is the mech in question still in production?  Or at least still having parts made?

If so, then you're more likely to see them as heirlooms.  Time and attrition would wear away at the numbers of OoP designs, reducing the likely hood of encountering one.  Meanwhile, bug mechs are built in enough numbers to keep them in circulation, even if the pilots get stuck fighting things they shouldn't.

Most common however, would be either trooper mediums, who's numbers and tough armor keeps them going in the face of what they might run into, such as vindicators, enforcers, and centurions, or the four 55s (Griffin, Shadowhawk, Wolverine, and Dervish), which can outfight most things lighter, and outrun anything they can't fight easily.