What mechs would be family heirlooms?

[SCC]

The Wasp is IIRC the single most common mech in the Inner Sphere.  Replacement parts for one are going to be very easy to come by: everybody's got the mech so everybody's going to be making parts for it.  The Scorpion, by comparison, is extremely rare and as a quad it uses a bunch of parts that are radically unlike those used by any other mech.  Parts are going to be far, far harder to come by and consequently more expensive.

Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.

[mbear]

Mechs became family mechs in a lot of ways. Early on they could be gifts from a grateful state. Often, a single Mechwarrior or even a unit would flee the state they worked for, taking their mechs (and often a dropship) with them. Rarely nobles would straight up purchase them from the manufacturer (this evening during the 3rd Succession War when manufacturing couldn't keep up with demand).

I haven't been through the whole thread, but didn't the SLDF let mechwarriors and pilots who were mustering out purchase their units? That would be one way to get a 'Mech.

[RifleMech]

Your sentence said that there where lots of parts around so somehow repairing a Wasp was wroth it, but somehow the parts weren't around to repair a Scorpion.

This on the other hand is fundamentally unworkable with what we are shown of how the BT universe works with regards to parts for 'Mechs, the more specific you make 'Mech parts to make this argument work, the less variety there will be in actualy 'Mech designs.

Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.

The Wasp has been in production since it was introduced. The Scorpion hadn't been produced since the 2nd Succession War. By 3025 Houses were scrapping Scorpions for parts. Steiner completed scrapping in 3026. House Davion started scrapping Scorpions in 3039.
The Family Scorpion I mentioned above was to be scrapped but the pilot left to be a merc. Kuritan Scorpion pilots are being told in 3025 that their mechs won't get more parts. So yes it's easier to get Wasp parts than it is to get Scorpion parts. That doesn't mean they're not unobtainable. Scrapped mechs and salvage make parts available for mechs with no factory production. One could also fabricate replacement parts if one has enough money. The questions are does one have the c-bills for the parts and does one want to spend it? The Houses have the money but don't spend it. The Merc with the family mech had the money and used. Still, even if one can get the parts it could take a while to do so. The mech could be in need of repairs for a while before new parts can be obtained.

There is a another option. If parts can't be found or made one could turn the Scorpion into a FrankenMech. It wouldn't surprise me if some Scorpion pilots did just that. However, you need good techs to do that and good techs require money. You'd also be making an already rough ride even rougher, unless you use matching legs.

You might not have any choice but to fight someone in another, heavier, 'Mech, the lighter your 'Mech the sooner it happens. Take your example of a Periphery planet, when someone in a Phoenix Hawk shows up you options are run, if you can, or die fighting him.

A system where it is noted that the majority of companies fail. If you can your buddies form a merc company with your 'Mechs, if you get your 'Mech shot out from under you, you likely aren't getting a new one, and the large units that are properly constructed with the resources to actually provide one may not be hiring guys like you.

True there might not be a choice but to fight then that's a risk a mechwarrior takes.

True you might not get a new one. Even house pilots might not get a new mech. That's why being disposed is a fear.  That is also a risk a mechwarrrior takes.

[Kovax]

The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?

The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive.  The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated.  If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.

[RifleMech]

The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?

The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive.  The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated.  If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.

I think the answer would be how valuable that unit is to the house? If they're important the House will spend the time and money to repair the unit. If they're not important then they won't. LAMs were important so they did. Scorpions weren't so they didn't.

[massey]

Here's the problem with that statement: There are thus no parts for a 'Mech design that's been out of production for years, so how come people keep digging them up and putting them back into service. Lack of parts interchangeability also means that I want as few designs as possible, so I'm only ever going to have one design for a certain role, if that.

It depends who you are.

If I'm Duke Jerkface in the year 3035, and I have 10 regiments of mechs, and have to decide what mechs to try and obtain, then I'm not going to focus on the Scorpion.  If my men happen to stumble across a functional one, that's fine.  But if I only have one in my entire force, at a certain point it gets easier to just scrap the thing and replace it.  I'm not going to make any special effort to keep it going if there's a better replacement available.

On the other hand, let's say I'm Farmer Jones' son.  One year we have a real dry spell, and the pond in the old back pasture starts to dry up.  Oh look, there's a metal thing sticking up out of the dirt in what had been the bottom of the pond.  We dig it up and find out it's a Scorpion battlemech.  100 years ago or more some guy failed a piloting roll, fell into the water, his cockpit breached, and he drowned.  Now I've got a fully functional battlemech just as soon as I can replace the electronics inside (or maybe just dry them out if they're milspec).  To me, that Scorpion represents extreme social mobility.  I can go from some poor farmer's son, to a nobleman if things work out okay.  But this is my only mech.  No matter how bad it sucks, I'm going to do everything in my power to make it work again.  Then I probably need to join a merc unit or something to legitimize my find.

Thinking of it that way, I'd say that as time goes by (and the tech recovery starts), the weird rare mechs are more likely to be heirlooms than to appear in regular House units.  As soon as House Davion has an option to get rid of that last handful of Clints, they probably will.  Scrap that sucker and replace it with another Enforcer or something.  But to people where that's their only mech, it's worth any effort to keep it operational.

[glitterboy2098]

even better, foist those Clint's (or Scorpions or whatever) off on some newly elevated lower nobility so that the nobles have to pay the costs of maintaining it and you still get the option of calling them up for military service when you need extra mechs.

though in terms of spare parts i suspect that there are few parts that can't be adapted from something else.. we've seen often that myomers, gyros, T&T systems, etc. can be macguyverred to work with mechs that they were not manufactured for. so even if that Scorpion doesn't have an intact factory any more, odds are a lot of its non-structural parts can be replaced by taking parts off other mechs then reworked to have the right adaptors and software patches and such. and even structural stuff can probably be fixed with custom tooled parts.
would it be more expensive? yeah. (mechs like the scorpion, clint, etc should really have the "non-standard parts' quirk during the succession wars) but it would be doable. and all the more reason to get those mechs into the hands of nobility or mercenaries rather than let them become hanger queens in a military unit.

[mmmpi]

The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?

The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive.  The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated.  If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.

The otherside of your first argument though is when resources outstrip production capacity.  If you have the resources to make X mechs, but only have the capacity to build x-y mechs, then you have y resources that can be used to update and repair harder to service, but still useful machines.  This goes away if you can build more factories/production lines, but that hasn't been the case for the Inner Sphere for most of the succession wars.

[SCC]

The question that a House military has to ask is: does it pay to dedicate the money, rare equipment, and skilled labor to fabricate custom replacement parts for some obsolete unit, or is the money better spent on buying new equipment that can still be cranked out in moderate volume at much lower cost?

The Wasp still has sources of new parts, so fixing one is a matter of ordering the parts and waiting until they arrive.  The Scorpion requires either finding someone who has scrapped their Scorpion for parts, and hope that the part you need is still in reasonable condition on theirs, or else paying premium prices to have a replacement part custom fabricated.  If you have a Scorpion in need of a few parts, it may be worth more as replacement parts, for the few people who still refuse to give up on their old rides, than as a repairable but currently non-functional 'Mech.

The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.

[Kovax]

The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.

Partially correct.  It can use SOME existing parts.  Try finding a set of front leg actuators for a 55 ton 'Mech that DIDN'T come from a Scorpion, because the front and rear legs are structurally different.  I'm pretty sure that there are some other sub-systems unique to the design (for example, the engine isn't shared by the other 55 tonners), although other items can be substituted easily enough (or in some cases regardless of the difficulty) with sufficient quantities of whatever pass for duct tape and chewing gum in the 31st Century.

As said, there comes a point in most armies where it costs more to repair or maintain the old beast than to replace it with a currently manufactured machine.  Eventually, the difficulties of servicing adapted or custom-made replacement systems, aging equipment that can't be replaced, and other increases in expense and difficulty begin to multiply, and the unit becomes unreliable in combat or simply unrepairable.  For the local noble who can't get a replacement 'Mech without being on a 30 year waiting list, the point where you need to scrap it (or sell it to someone who is willing to maintain it at any price) is a lot further down the road than for a well-financed top-tier military unit, and likely to be somewhere in between for a militia unit or reasonably successful mercenaries.

[Orin J.]

plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!

[Sartris]

plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!

and send your agents to hunt down and purchase as many crates as they can find.

[Colt Ward]

Well, a good machine shop should be able to build about anything given time and materials.  The problem is when its exotic materials to create the replacement as part of the creation of the material.  Some alloys are only formed grudgingly from their constituent parts, so you end up having the metals separate b/c they get heated by a cutting torch or laser cutter, so the material changes properties.

[Sartris]

Sometimes buying parts is cheapest. Just because you can build something doesn’t make it the best option. It also denies your enemies and rivals who might need them the resources

[glitterboy2098]

plus if you're a noble you can probably afford to devote some of the local infrastructure to custom machining parts for you beyond the extremely limited facilities mechs can drag around with them. That Merlin has a shoulder assembly you can't get off the rack? invest in a company to build joint asssemblies and have them hand-produce you a couple as part of the contract!

Merlin would probably be a bad example here, since it is so new that parts certainly would be available.

[deathfrombeyond]

What mechs do you think would've been common family heirlooms?

Not:
....

To me, a piece of military hardware goes from being a weapon or whatever to an heirloom when its primary function is ceremonial/decorative.

Thus, I don’t understand all these restrictions on what an heirloom ‘mech should be.

[Colt Ward]

May not be the best term for it, but I am not sure we have a better one for a weapon that is handed down through generations.  I think the general agreement is that it does not blow up if looked at cross-wise and has a chance to escape bad situations.  General parts availability is a plus.

[RifleMech]

The otherside of your first argument though is when resources outstrip production capacity.  If you have the resources to make X mechs, but only have the capacity to build x-y mechs, then you have y resources that can be used to update and repair harder to service, but still useful machines.  This goes away if you can build more factories/production lines, but that hasn't been the case for the Inner Sphere for most of the succession wars.

That's why salvage is such a big deal during the succession wars. It's another source of parts besides maxed out factories.

The thing is from what we see that obsolete unit takes the same parts as a newly designed unit, so there's no need to divert labor, it can use existing parts.

If there's a factory making parts then a unit isn't obsolete.  You're also limited in what parts you can use from existing units on obsolete ones. The only body locations that can be used from a Wasp to rebuild a Scorpion are the side torsos and head. This is because the Scorpion is heavier than the Wasp and a Quad. You'd have to take legs off another 55 ton mech to replace a Scorpions legs.

Partially correct.  It can use SOME existing parts.  Try finding a set of front leg actuators for a 55 ton 'Mech that DIDN'T come from a Scorpion, because the front and rear legs are structurally different.  I'm pretty sure that there are some other sub-systems unique to the design (for example, the engine isn't shared by the other 55 tonners), although other items can be substituted easily enough (or in some cases regardless of the difficulty) with sufficient quantities of whatever pass for duct tape and chewing gum in the 31st Century.

As said, there comes a point in most armies where it costs more to repair or maintain the old beast than to replace it with a currently manufactured machine.  Eventually, the difficulties of servicing adapted or custom-made replacement systems, aging equipment that can't be replaced, and other increases in expense and difficulty begin to multiply, and the unit becomes unreliable in combat or simply unrepairable.  For the local noble who can't get a replacement 'Mech without being on a 30 year waiting list, the point where you need to scrap it (or sell it to someone who is willing to maintain it at any price) is a lot further down the road than for a well-financed top-tier military unit, and likely to be somewhere in between for a militia unit or reasonably successful mercenaries.

When it comes to replacing individual Scorpion leg actuators with actuators from another design I don't think they'd do that. They'd have to redesign the entire limb to get it to work and I think you'd still end up with a rougher ride. It'd might be easier to just replace the entire limb that just the actuator. Either way as long as the rest of the limb works I think the pilot would just have to live with it and hope it doesn't suffer more actuator damage.

And it does happen in canon where a House will sell a mech that they deem no longer worth repairing. Even when the unit is still in production. There's an example in SB: Sword and Dragon.  A family bought a mech the House scrapped and rebuilt it. I think it's a Javelin.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It actually is possible to modify a mech's internal structure to make a peace fit on a chassis of a different size. The Cataphract, Marauder II, and numerous Frankenmechs demonstrate that.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

  Anything could survive to be passed down, even the most fragile models. Some mechs were made in such large numbers that keeping them repaired would be easy, no matter how many times it needed to be dragged from the field.

 A mechwarrior may not be thrilled with inheriting an old Stinger or Jenner, but it's better than nothing.

[Greatclub]

You can't inherit confetti, which is pretty much explicitly what happens if an unCASEed ammo bin gets hit. Strategic operations, 175.

Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.

Thus, why I think some some mechs would be inherited in frequency out of proportion to their extant numbers. A lot more Wasps would be inherited than Grasshoppers. A much higher percentage of Grasshoppers would be multi-generation.

[RifleMech]

It actually is possible to modify a mech's internal structure to make a peace fit on a chassis of a different size. The Cataphract, Marauder II, and numerous Frankenmechs demonstrate that.

I don't think the Marauder II would be a FrankenMech since it was a new Mech based on plans of the Marauder.  The Cataphract Prototype though was a FrankenMech that used parts made for other mechs. It was also produced in a factory though which I think sets it apart from the majority of FrankenMechs. The Cataphract had to have the internal structure altered to be lighter or heavier depending the body location. Most FrankenMechs just use the limbs as they are. 

  Anything could survive to be passed down, even the most fragile models. Some mechs were made in such large numbers that keeping them repaired would be easy, no matter how many times it needed to be dragged from the field.

 A mechwarrior may not be thrilled with inheriting an old Stinger or Jenner, but it's better than nothing.

The Mech inherited might not resemble what it did when it first walked off the factory floor though.

You can't inherit confetti, which is pretty much explicitly what happens if an unCASEed ammo bin gets hit. Strategic operations, 175.

Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.

Thus, why I think some some mechs would be inherited in frequency out of proportion to their extant numbers. A lot more Wasps would be inherited than Grasshoppers. A much higher percentage of Grasshoppers would be multi-generation.

Being splody depends on if the ammo bin suffers a hit or not. Also a mech with one leg missing isn't dead. It can still move. I also think that most Bug Pilots would not tangle with more heavily opponents and would retreat when damaged. I know sometimes it doesn't happen but if Bug Mechs died so quickly I don't think they'd still exist in such high numbers.

[deathfrombeyond]

Stingers and Wasps can get unrecoverablly exploded from a single large laser hit, or have legs torn off by a PPC. A succession war Marauder that takes an early left torso TAC is just as dead-dead.

Assertion:

A wasp/stinger is just as capable of being passed onto the next generation as a more combat effective ‘mech. In fact, I would actually say that a wasp/stinger has more chance to become an heirloom since most people wouldn’t want to risk putting them in the thick of battle like they would a marauder.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think the Marauder II would be a FrankenMech since it was a new Mech based on plans of the Marauder.  The Cataphract Prototype though was a FrankenMech that used parts made for other mechs. It was also produced in a factory though which I think sets it apart from the majority of FrankenMechs. The Cataphract had to have the internal structure altered to be lighter or heavier depending the body location. Most FrankenMechs just use the limbs as they are.

The point is that it's canonically possible to refit a mech using limbs from a different mech, even if the donor doesn't match the tonnage of the base mech.  There's another example in Record Sheets: Unique Mechs- a Gunslinger that got refitted with the right arms from a pair of Zeuses, meaning that it's not only possible to refit a mech with arms from a different mech, it's also possible to stick a right arm onto a mech in place of a left arm.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Being splody depends on if the ammo bin suffers a hit or not. Also a mech with one leg missing isn't dead. It can still move. I also think that most Bug Pilots would not tangle with more heavily opponents and would retreat when damaged. I know sometimes it doesn't happen but if Bug Mechs died so quickly I don't think they'd still exist in such high numbers.

  As a war gamer, I think its funny when BT players have no concept of reconnaissance units. My first character played a light mech pilot in a mercenary unit and led their recon lance. He was employed as a merc for 10 years and NEVER fired his weapons in combat. He was in dozens of battles but he was recon, doing his job properly. His mech was in his family for five generations. Most of the Bug Mechs are light, fast machines designed for recon duties, not as battlefield workhorses.
  In every campaign, I place a priority on blinding my opponent, which means taking out his recon elements. If the enemy cannot track my movements or determine my numbers, I will be able to choose when, where and the conditions of battle. Recon elements are the most valuable units when a campaign starts and remain valuable until the last shot.

  Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.

[Greatclub]

  As a war gamer, I think its funny when BT players have no concept of reconnaissance units. My first character played a light mech pilot in a mercenary unit and led their recon lance. He was employed as a merc for 10 years and NEVER fired his weapons in combat. He was in dozens of battles but he was recon, doing his job properly. His mech was in his family for five generations. Most of the Bug Mechs are light, fast machines designed for recon duties, not as battlefield workhorses.
  In every campaign, I place a priority on blinding my opponent, which means taking out his recon elements. If the enemy cannot track my movements or determine my numbers, I will be able to choose when, where and the conditions of battle. Recon elements are the most valuable units when a campaign starts and remain valuable until the last shot.

  Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.

Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.

Assertion:

A wasp/stinger is just as capable of being passed onto the next generation as a more combat effective ‘mech. In fact, I would actually say that a wasp/stinger has more chance to become an heirloom since most people wouldn’t want to risk putting them in the thick of battle like they would a marauder.

Look at the number of bugs in the earliest products. Here. That's four bugs in the black widows and just as many in the foxes teeth. Elite units.

Bugs are too common for them to be relegated to recon duties. Unfortunate, but even spotting duty puts them in the line of fire.

Edit - Bugs used as intended would survive forever. Bugs used expediently would die horribly. My read is that by 3025 there's no choice but to use them expediently or run the risk of losing a battle to somebody who does.

[deathfrombeyond]

Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.

:: shrugs ::

The game doesn’t always model the universe lore perfectly.

There’s no real incentive for a clan player to use zellbrigen, but the lack of incentive in the game doesn’t mean that the concept of zellbrigen doesn’t exist or is rarely practiced.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.

  I find set games boring. Playing to win without consequences is easy, especially after I figure out what I have to kill to score the most points. My group has run several campaigns that put all of the players' war gaming skills and doctrines to the test, including playing under enemy radio jamming of the entire battlefield, or as insurgents on a blockaded planet. I'll tell you, the set battle players never did well in the long campaigns, because they threw their units into the first battles and left it up to the dice to decide the outcome. I once captured one of the enemy upper level commanders and thought it would be better to release him, he was so incompetent.

[Sartris]

we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop

you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.

[dgorsman]

Shouldn't be too hard for a GM.  Good recon work (from players or OpFor) results in either less or weaker enemy forces in future battles.  Failure to stop enemy recon results in more concentrated assaults or lack of reinforcements.  Failure in or not performing recon results in ambushes or desired target not found.