Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 194286 times)

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1170 on: 09 November 2018, 09:51:03 »
What's our current budget? I've been waiting for an update?

I've had 14 Billion in the past as the standard but got 24 last turn, I also invaded a new planet...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1171 on: 09 November 2018, 10:01:18 »
What's our current budget? I've been waiting for an update?

I've had 14 Billion in the past as the standard but got 24 last turn, I also invaded a new planet...

TT

Your budget for turn 7 (2410-2419) listed at the bottom of turn 6, is 24B

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1172 on: 09 November 2018, 11:20:50 »
What's our current budget? I've been waiting for an update?

I've had 14 Billion in the past as the standard but got 24 last turn, I also invaded a new planet...

I jacked up the RWR, MH, and TC budgets to compensate for the new tech system, and to let you have a bit more resources to play with (because the old budgets left you a little too close to the edge). So yes, it's $24B - have fun!

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1173 on: 09 November 2018, 11:44:18 »
Yes. I'll update the OP.
It looks like there is a different bug, although this may (?) only affect the TC.  Instead of Ceiling-1, you want Floor with a special case at 20.  something like:
=if(R22=20,0,0.1*FLOOR.MATH(R22/$R$28))
With the current form:
=MAX(0.1*(CEILING(R22/$R$28)-1), 0)
it underestimates the fire control tonnage at 40, 60, 80, etc... weapons.

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1174 on: 09 November 2018, 14:59:27 »
 :drool:

He..hehe..hehaha..buhahahAHAHA!

 >:D

-Ahem-

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1175 on: 09 November 2018, 16:03:17 »
I originally planned to, and inquired about, taking over the Rim Worlds Navy. A nice blank sheet to get into this to little attention. But, due to popular request that the big players be filled, I decided to flip the bird.

Starting the current turn, I am taking over stewardship of the Free Worlds League. Or at least its Navy.
Hello again, everyone.

I'll take a bit to get acquainted, starting with reading up on my own forces.


...And just now, when the smaller players got more budget. A pity. But I figured, I just need to endure 65 turns and I can follow Thomas Marik and really turn some heads.  >:D
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1176 on: 09 November 2018, 16:38:19 »
Stupid purple byrd! Don't eat me!

Welkome... neighbor?

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1177 on: 09 November 2018, 20:31:38 »
Welcome sir, in desperate need of someone to distract Ze Germanz

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1178 on: 10 November 2018, 12:32:46 »
It looks like there is a different bug, although this may (?) only affect the TC.  Instead of Ceiling-1, you want Floor with a special case at 20.  something like:
=if(R22=20,0,0.1*FLOOR.MATH(R22/$R$28))
With the current form:
=MAX(0.1*(CEILING(R22/$R$28)-1), 0)
it underestimates the fire control tonnage at 40, 60, 80, etc... weapons.

Silly me. I had the right formula on the nose arc, but didn't copy it down the column. Should be fixed now.
=IF(R20>$R$28, 0.1*FLOOR(R20/$R$28), 0)

I originally planned to, and inquired about, taking over the Rim Worlds Navy. A nice blank sheet to get into this to little attention. But, due to popular request that the big players be filled, I decided to flip the bird.

Starting the current turn, I am taking over stewardship of the Free Worlds League. Or at least its Navy.
Hello again, everyone.

I'll take a bit to get acquainted, starting with reading up on my own forces.


...And just now, when the smaller players got more budget. A pity. But I figured, I just need to endure 65 turns and I can follow Thomas Marik and really turn some heads.  >:D

Well, bird is the word, after all...

Welcome aboard!

---

Discussions of the Ares Convention within the Terran Hegemony's highest ranks have primarily focused on ensuring that the threat of nuclear weapons cannot be used by inferior powers to stop overwhelming Hegemony forces. As such, the Hegemony is considering a declaration that it would guarantee the treaty, and punish any violations with overwhelming force, to ensure that nuclear warfare never becomes accepted as a common tactical approach.

The Navy feels that its ongoing refit programs are sufficient to keep its fleet in fighting trim, and so the two new designs for the 2410s are both intended as logistical support ships.

Analysis of combat in outlying regions has shown a distressing tendency towards large numbers of JumpShips used to support ground operations, and then being left almost totally undefended for days or weeks. The Protector class is designed to protect against the inevitable loss of these ships if attacked. Far slower than any other naval vessel, the Protector cannot reach 1g even at full burn, and thus is impractical for routine transport between planets. However, it is faster than the JumpShips it's assigned to guard, and equipped with extremely sturdy armour and a range of weaponry well-suited to the defence of unarmed ships against raiders. It also carries a large fighter wing and advanced sensor systems to enhance the rather anemic sensors on typical JumpShips, while the unit cost has been kept low through the assumption that DropShips will be available on the escorted ships, and do not need to be docked to the Protector itself.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Protector
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $6,510,624,004.00
Magazine Cost: $127,438,000.00
BV2: 53,159

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 1.0
Maximum Thrust: 1.5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
16 Naval AC 30
16 Naval Laser 55
32 Capital Launcher Barracuda
32 LRM 20 (IS)
64 Machine Gun (IS)

Class/Model/Name: Protector
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 30,000
Thrust
Safe: 1.0
Maximum: 1.5
Controls: 1,250
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (12 Integrity) 226,250
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 55
Structural Integrity: 150 75,000
Total Heat Sinks: 2544 Single 2,255
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 5000 points 2,040
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 690 pts Standard 1,500
Fore: 110
Fore-Left/Right: 120/120
Aft-Left/Right: 120/120
Aft: 100

Dropship Capacity: 0 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 2 200
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 45 315
Life Boats: 45 315

Crew And Passengers:
41 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 410
104 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 728
92 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 644
374 Bay Personnel in 2nd Class Quarters 2,618

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) FL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AR 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) AL 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
8 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 16 (1.6-C) Short-PDS 4
4 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) Aft 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) FR 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) FL 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) AR 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) AL 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) LBS 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 LRM 20 (IS) RBS 24 48 (4.8-C) Long 40
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 LBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval Laser 55 RBS 340 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 4,400
4 Naval AC 30 FR 400 1200 (120-C) Long-C 14,000
4 Naval AC 30 FL 400 1200 (120-C) Long-C 14,000
4 Naval AC 30 AR 400 1200 (120-C) Long-C 14,000
4 Naval AC 30 AL 400 1200 (120-C) Long-C 14,000
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda FL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AR 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda AL 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360
4 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 40 80 (8-C) Extreme-C 360

Ammo Rounds Mass
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 15600 78
LRM 20 (IS) Ammo 1920 320
Naval AC 30 Ammo 1600 1,280
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 320 9,600

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
35,000 Cargo, Standard 35,000 2
8,700 Cargo, Refrigerated 10,000 1
6 Bay Small Craft 1,200 2
144 Bay Fighter 21,600 8
2 Bay Conventional Infantry (IS), Foot 10 0
NCSS Large 500

The Newgrange is intended to offer logistical support to fleets on deep strike operations. It mounts no meaningful weaponry(only small defensive installations), but it's equipped with repair facilities sufficient to repair any ship expected to be in the Terran inventory for the foreseeable future, with a massive cargo bay to support its operations, and facilities for some 7,000 repair crew. While the ship is far too expensive to operate in large numbers, the goal is to attach one to each of the three principal fleets, to support any long-range operations which may be necessary.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Newgrange
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $42,842,306,004.00
Magazine Cost: $30,280,400.00
BV2: 25,902

Mass: 2,000,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3.0
Maximum Thrust: 4.5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
384 Machine Gun (IS)
96 LRM 20 (IS)

Class/Model/Name: Newgrange
Mass: 2,000,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 360,000
Thrust
Safe: 3.0
Maximum: 4.5
Controls: 5,000
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (39 Integrity) 905,000
Jump Sail: (8 Integrity) 130
Structural Integrity: 50 100,000
Total Heat Sinks: 893 Single 0
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 25000 points 10,200
Fire Control Computers: 346
Armor: 830 pts Standard 2,000
Fore: 110
Fore-Left/Right: 120/120
Aft-Left/Right: 120/120
Aft: 100

Dropship Capacity: 6 6,000
Grav Decks:
Small: 0
Medium: 0
Large: 4 2,000
Escape Pods: 600 4,200
Life Boats: 600 4,200

Crew And Passengers:
89 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 890
356 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 2,492
80 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 560
120 Bay Personnel (included below)
200 1st Class Passengers 2,000
7000 2nd Class Passengers 49,000

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
48 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) FR 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) FL 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) AR 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) AL 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
48 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 96 (9.6-C) Short-PDS 24
12 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) Aft 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) FR 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) FL 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) AR 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) AL 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) LBS 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120
12 LRM 20 (IS) RBS 72 144 (14.4-C) Long 120

Ammo Rounds Mass
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 56080 280
LRM 20 (IS) Ammo 6000 1,000

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
450,000 Cargo, Standard 450,000 4
17,400 Cargo, Refrigerated 20,000 4
24 Bay Small Craft 4,800 6
2,000,000 Naval Repair Unpressurized 50,000 1
250,000 Naval Repair Pressurized 18,750 1

The elderly Dart-class cruisers have been removed from front-line service as WarShips entirely. They are now designated "armed transports", to reflect their substantial cargo-carrying capacity, generous DropShip complements, and slow speeds.

Phased upgrades of the fleet also continue through the 2410s. The two hulls selected for upgrades are the Monsoon and Essex.

The Monsoon is a large and powerful ship, but its firepower is lower than should be expected from a ship of that scale. The Cameron-era obsession with on-board cargo space has been scaled back to allow for a sufficiently powerful primary battery to justify the title of "battleship" against any conceivable opponent. The fighter wing has also been scaled up modestly, and a modern missile defence system has been added, though the dual-purpose naval lasers have been removed entirely. The Monsoon II will rely on its escorting Vincents, Quixotes, and fighter craft to target small opponents and act as a screen for enemy firepower, and will instead focus its own firepower exclusively on the enemy's battle line. As befits a flagship, the Monsoon II has also received an electronics upgrade, and now carries the same advanced sensor system as previously used by the Bonaventure.

The total cost of these changes is severe, both financially and in terms of the carrying capacity of a Terran fleet. However, the new ship models of the last two decades are expected to be able to deal with the cargo needs of the fleet even on deep-strike missions, and the clearer contrast between combat and non-combat ships should improve the fleet's overall efficiency.

12x NAC/35 + 8x NAC/30 -> 24x NAC/35 (broadside)
40x NL/45 -> 72x Heavy NPPC (nose/aft/quarters)
3x White Shark -> removed
Nil point defence -> 64x MG
8 small craft + 18 fighters -> 12 small craft + 72 fighters
Standard sensors -> LNCSS
295 kton cargo -> 80 kton cargo
$14,556m -> $16,498m

The Essex was designed primarily as a gun-carrying ship, but its armour was far too weak to stand in any sort of serious combat, and its guns were also badly under-powered for the role. Due to this confusion of roles, the ship was previously removed from production entirely under the Cameron regime, but the 20 old Essexes stayed in service. A final decision on this class was needed, and Echohawk's new government decided to retain and modernize the Essex instead of scrapping it outright. Rather than up-gunning it and allowing it to be picked off by any plausible enemy, it was instead converted to a fleet carrier, where its thin armour and poor structural strength would be less of a vulnerability, and where it could more effectively serve as an asset for the fleet. Only the lightest naval lasers were retained as capital weaponry, though as usual a modern point defence system was installed.

12x NAC/10 + 10x NL/45 -> removed
Nil point defence -> 48x LRM-20, 96x MG
12x small craft -> 6x small craft, 360x fighter
134 kton cargo -> 108 kton cargo
$5,983m -> $5,996m

BUDGET: $775,000m
Shipyards - Terra 7>8: $80,000m
Maintenance(@100%): $295,998m
R&D(Newgrange, Protector, Monsoon II, Essex II): $58,605m
Upgrades(16x Monsoon II, 20x Essex II): $31,332m
2x Newgrange: $81,684m
12x Protector: $78,192m
6x Charon: $50,094m
900x small craft: $9,000m
15,000x fighter: $75,000m
Research(5A, 5M, 5S): $15,000m

Remaining: $95m

---

Edit: To piggyback on Marcus' naval estimates, the THN now has:
- 133.79 MT of front-line combat ships, of which:
> 107.78MT in modern ships(Vincents and Quixote/Black Lion/Lola/Monsoon/Essex IIs)
> 26.01MT in the form of un-modernized ships (Dreadnoughts, Aegises, and Cruisers)
- 14.7 MT of support combat ships (Bonaventures and Vigilants), with 6MT(Protectors) under construction
- 21.44MT of transport and support ships(Potemkins, Charons, Newgranges, and Darts), with 8.2MT under construction

Yards: 1x8/3x6/5x4/11x3/3x2/10x1

Their designs are intentionally specialized in odd ways, overcosted, and not especially optimal. They also don't spend much on training, and their best fleets are slow too. But still, that's a beatstick of a fleet. All five great houses combined have 77.49MT of fleet units, for reference. (The Echohawk coup killed 16.76MT of ships, which is more than anyone except the LC has in their fleet). And this is after I've spent two turns building zero new front-line WarShips. I am so glad I didn't let a human player have the TH...
« Last Edit: 10 November 2018, 14:26:07 by Alsadius »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1179 on: 10 November 2018, 14:13:09 »
The Monsoon refit looks a lot like the Tyr refit writ large.  Not sure how the lack of on-board PDS/AAA will work out.
« Last Edit: 10 November 2018, 14:15:54 by marcussmythe »

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1180 on: 10 November 2018, 15:07:39 »
W.r.t. the Newgrange, the rules don't directly say that a negative dropship capacity isn't allowed, but I had always assumed that.  Looking over TR3057, apparently this is not the case for various repair yards, so the maximum capacity of all repair bays can exceed the tonnage.

UnLimiTeD: great to have you :-)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1181 on: 10 November 2018, 20:39:20 »
Yes. I was seriously considering creating a fleet of transformers that can fold into itself.
Alas, technology isn't advanced enough yet.
Were the rules on Grav Decks changed so warships can mount large ones?

Are there any plans to reduce machinegun spam or encourage ship sizes that can't be neatly divided by 250000?
« Last Edit: 10 November 2018, 20:49:01 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1182 on: 10 November 2018, 21:38:41 »
Believe that warships are limited to 250m grav decks.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1183 on: 10 November 2018, 22:05:19 »
The Monsoon refit looks a lot like the Tyr refit writ large.  Not sure how the lack of on-board PDS/AAA will work out.

If it gets used in the way the TH predicts, it should be fine. Remember that it does have 64 MG, 72 ASF, and 6 DS, so it's not totally naked even if it was solo. In a fleet, it should work well enough. However, if the escorts get stripped away, the THN could have a very bad day. (I'm imagining their morale cracking in a bad battle, the Vincents turning tail, and the Monsoons getting left naked, for example). Specialization is a good strategy if you can make sure that you always have the right specialized tool for any given job, but it does tend to fall apart if you bring a knife to a gunfight.

W.r.t. the Newgrange, the rules don't directly say that a negative dropship capacity isn't allowed, but I had always assumed that.  Looking over TR3057, apparently this is not the case for various repair yards, so the maximum capacity of all repair bays can exceed the tonnage.

It's not really abuseable. The KF rules say you can't jump anything with a jump drive, and the repair bay rules say that you can't thrust with anything inside (unless it's a reinforced bay, but that tech doesn't exist yet). Despite being a bay large enough for its own mass, it also won't be able to self-swallow - it could carry a McKenna, but not another Newgrange. (There's no explicit rules for this, but meh. It's good to be GM.)

Yes. I was seriously considering creating a fleet of transformers that can fold into itself.
Alas, technology isn't advanced enough yet.
Were the rules on Grav Decks changed so warships can mount large ones?

Believe that warships are limited to 250m grav decks.

Huh, you're correct. I was going by the canon Newgrange, which has 4x 500m grav decks, but it seems that those are illegal now. Didn't notice that.

House rule: They're okay on repair ships, because of their ridiculous girth. If you're big enough to totally envelop a battleship with its own 250m grav decks, you're big enough to have your own 500m grav decks. The same can also be true of other ships that are unusually large for some reason. Given that big grav decks have no game-rule advantages I know of, feel free to use them whenever you feel that they're appropriate.

Are there any plans to reduce machinegun spam or encourage ship sizes that can't be neatly divided by 250000?

Re MG spam, my current plan is to change the stats on the AMS to be less spammable, and then make the MG slowly go obsolete thereafter. It's a long-term fix, but it's the only thing I can really do without causing chaos.

Re ship sizes, I trust the players not to max-min too relentlessly, and to use their powers in moderation, for the sake of a realistic and mutually satisfying game. (Or, if you want the serious answer, no. I figure 250kt is granular enough that it's not too egregious, and that's also too fundamental to easily change.)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1184 on: 11 November 2018, 06:44:33 »
To solve that, a bit of brainstorming:

  • Building ships below the size cap for a yard is cheaper - f.Ex. for 2% lower, -1% cost. Capped at -2.5%, could be raised with technology
  • Fitting the above, maybe extra techs that reward mass production with extra production capacity or an additive cost reduction?
  • I'd recommend assuming that every Warship or armed jumpship automatically has limited, integral point defense. Say, +5 MGs or later 2 AMS per ship (I think you mostly roll the entire fleet for missile strikes, so no point in adding them to a facing).
  • Missile Strikes above an arbitrary number, say, 100 Missiles, are slightly easier to hit, assuming it's also more missiles than the ship has Point defense to bring to bear on them.
  • Repeated Missile interceptions in a single turn, from a single ship, degrade in efficiency, preferably more on larger PD-batteries. This and the above would encourage having multiple ships for the task.
  • I still think a softcap/effective limit on guns per facing, or how many can be fired at once, would do us good. Even if a large ship can fit far more bays, surface area doesn't increase as fast as volume.
  • Actually, may not add a tech for a 1-shot screenlauncher earlier in the techtree, and also dissect the important techs like EMC and bracketing into multiple levels?

Regarding Grav-Decks: Why a newgrange does that, you needn't envelop another ship. It could very well just be a skeleton repair scaffolding.
Indeed, I was planning for a ship that could fold open said repair facility for field repairs on other ships.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
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Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1185 on: 11 November 2018, 15:19:32 »
To solve that, a bit of brainstorming:

  • Building ships below the size cap for a yard is cheaper - f.Ex. for 2% lower, -1% cost. Capped at -2.5%, could be raised with technology
  • Fitting the above, maybe extra techs that reward mass production with extra production capacity or an additive cost reduction?
  • I'd recommend assuming that every Warship or armed jumpship automatically has limited, integral point defense. Say, +5 MGs or later 2 AMS per ship (I think you mostly roll the entire fleet for missile strikes, so no point in adding them to a facing).
  • Missile Strikes above an arbitrary number, say, 100 Missiles, are slightly easier to hit, assuming it's also more missiles than the ship has Point defense to bring to bear on them.
  • Repeated Missile interceptions in a single turn, from a single ship, degrade in efficiency, preferably more on larger PD-batteries. This and the above would encourage having multiple ships for the task.
  • I still think a softcap/effective limit on guns per facing, or how many can be fired at once, would do us good. Even if a large ship can fit far more bays, surface area doesn't increase as fast as volume.
  • Actually, may not add a tech for a 1-shot screenlauncher earlier in the techtree, and also dissect the important techs like EMC and bracketing into multiple levels?

Regarding Grav-Decks: Why a newgrange does that, you needn't envelop another ship. It could very well just be a skeleton repair scaffolding.
Indeed, I was planning for a ship that could fold open said repair facility for field repairs on other ships.

Those cost drops seem impractical. Too much bookkeeping, not enough benefit. If this was a computer game I'd be all over it(and I've mulled about similar ideas a few times, actually), but when we have to track everything more or less by hand, I shy away from rules like that.

I'm not sure what benefit integrated PD has, given that nobody except the THN has built ships lacking PD, and the THN really needs no help.

Diminishing returns to scale are definitely a part of how I've been conducting battles, both for the missile count and for PD. I don't have firm rules here, admittedly, but the principle is one I've been using.

Soft caps on weapon counts might be nice, but I don't know how to add them in a way that's better than what the fire control rules already do. (Fire control rules aren't very good, of course, but given that it needs to be compatible with existing designs and keep to the spirit of BT, I don't have better)

Splitting techs might make sense, and I've intentionally left a few slots open to allow for it if I come up with good ideas down the line.

Re the Newgrange, you're right that enveloping the ship to be repaired in a full-clamshell mobile shipyard is unnecessary. However, it's a THN ship, and "excessive overkill" is basically their modus operandi. If they're dropping $43B per ship on it(or more like $57B with R&D costs, given the low production run), then it'll have bells and whistles not dreamed of by mortal man.

Edit: An idea for fire control is coming to me, which might be better in some ways. If the fire control limit is 20, you can have 20 capital weapons and 20 light weapons per facing. You can go over that, but 21-40 is a -1 to hit, 41-60 is -2 to hit, and so on. No fire control mass, just to-hit penalties. Of course, I'd need to define "to hit" in the context of PD systems, and I might want to scale the number by ship size somewhat, but it could possibly work.

That said, I don't like it much right now. It's a fairly big change to the rules, it requires a big spreadsheet change, it messes with existing designs, and it doesn't really accomplish much that needs accomplishing right now. Likewise, I've been thinking over the army thing, and I'm not really a fan. It'll be happening in the background, but it doesn't need to move to the foreground. I may do a similar background effect of diminishing returns to more MGs(in whatever form that takes fluff-wise), but a big rule change like that may be overkill.
« Last Edit: 11 November 2018, 16:16:45 by Alsadius »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1186 on: 11 November 2018, 17:08:44 »
Well, I figured multiplying the final price wouldn't be that hard, but I suppose it is a minor concern at worst. Throwing out random ideas has the disadvantage that most of them won't be any good. I mainly see the vast majority of designs in the future to be built after the corner-posting principle, with excessive amounts of PD, limited integral fighter support and little to no dropships, and larger ships always being better for everything until you reach fire control inefficiency. I can work with that, but I wanted to share that concern before

I honestly have no idea how you conduct battles, so you might indeed factor in things to counteract rules shenanigans. Of course, that also means that will inevitably have a bias towards how you think a fight should go down, but don't we all?

Edit: Where do I actually build space stations?
In yards, as well?
And I suppose I need a tug to move them?
« Last Edit: 11 November 2018, 17:19:42 by UnLimiTeD »
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
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Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1187 on: 11 November 2018, 17:52:46 »
Well, I figured multiplying the final price wouldn't be that hard, but I suppose it is a minor concern at worst. Throwing out random ideas has the disadvantage that most of them won't be any good. I mainly see the vast majority of designs in the future to be built after the corner-posting principle, with excessive amounts of PD, limited integral fighter support and little to no dropships, and larger ships always being better for everything until you reach fire control inefficiency. I can work with that, but I wanted to share that concern before

I honestly have no idea how you conduct battles, so you might indeed factor in things to counteract rules shenanigans. Of course, that also means that will inevitably have a bias towards how you think a fight should go down, but don't we all?

Edit: Where do I actually build space stations?
In yards, as well?
And I suppose I need a tug to move them?

As you say, throwing around random ideas has a low success rate. Don't let my disagreements stop you from doing the same again - I try not to go too crazy here, but it's fun to think crazy sometimes.

I conduct battles based on feel, tbh. I don't have any hard-and-fast rules, which may be why I frustrate people with occasional inconsistencies.

As for building stations, they're assumed to be built on-site. They don't require any yard space. They're inherently a lot more limited than ships, so I don't mind giving people the ability to dream big.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1188 on: 11 November 2018, 19:38:27 »
Does anyone have the editor links for my current ships?
Easier to recreate them if I can just get the plans. ^^
Though I suppose I can do that by hand if need be.

Going by feel, the most successful strategy is probably being as cost effective as possible, as numerical superiority invokes stronger feelings of win than minor advantages in quality, and in case of loss, it's a lower repair bill.  ^-^
Speaking of random ideas, ... no actually, let's not. But, what effect does cargo space have on maintenance?
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1189 on: 11 November 2018, 20:17:16 »
Does anyone have the editor links for my current ships?
Easier to recreate them if I can just get the plans. ^^

Try this:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61764.msg1455413#msg1455413
Just replace Maingunnery for you... I believe Lang can rewrite the players name for you even if the OP was different. Though only a MOD can fix any posts, best thing we can do is replace his name for yours. But the updated fixes would be your takes. Including if you just re-post them in your name.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1190 on: 11 November 2018, 21:38:52 »
THIS HAS BEEN RETCON'D FOR TURN 8

End Turn 6 Budget: 3 Billion, 855 Million
TAXES and Loot: 24 Billion

Beginning Turn 7: 27 Billion, 855 Million

Retcon:                                      2.574 Billion, Scapha II upgrade
Periphery Aid Package:             1 Billion, helping the Illyrian Palatinate, rebuild
Maintenance:                             4 Billion ~ 120% ( or close to that )
Buying, Cyclone-clones, Davion:   .250 Million ( these are pirated clones so nah!  :P ) 50 fighters / 5 Ala @ 10 ASF each ( Cyclonas- latin )
Buying, Kutai, Kurita:   5 Billion in Germanium no less! ( Notice: this is my way of using the yakuza-owned Terada Warship Yards as my supplier, fluffiness eh?  ;) ) ex-DCA Trondheim

End Turn 7 Budget: 15 Billion 31 Million

Story time...

Marian Action News Network ( MANN )
Illyrian Palatinate
Marian Hegemony Command HQ

Prefect O'Hara, commander of Second Legio, continues to patrol the heavily dense surroundings in hope of finding any remaining rebels. General Tanner had forwarded his recommendations for her to take the prized Aquila rank. Following her completion of the campaign on Illyria, her next a order of business would be to establish a permanent garrison of troops of which she'll hopefully would lead. Time will tell.

{ Meanwhile elsewhere... }

A lone independent tramp jumpship freighter crossed the fluctuated space border form FWL, carrying the news of a new Terran Hegemony mandate. The one about the makings of War and it's consequences, including the use of Nuclear weapons on a target. It will arrive transmitting several important coded messages to the outlining stations before leaving a week or so later back into the black inky void of known space...

Said messages were sent, decoded and forwarded to the Legatus Cornius, now Prefect Cornius, current Commanding officer of Collegium Bellorum Imperium, Special Division under direct command of Imperator Pi. His assignment is to improve as much of the HAF as possible, using Foreign and Domestic technologies. His most recent improvement was a clone copy of House Davion's Cyclone Aerospace fighter, naming it Cyclonas, it would hopefully lead the way towards future tech and more resources. His somewhat illegal endeavor might cause alarm, but it was considered a bold move none the least. Currently two Ala are assigned to Alphard and Vi with the other three are assigned to the Yards as fast interceptors for protection. Plans are currently underway to replace majority of the fighters with faster designs.

FLEET ACTION:

First Fleet: aka Alpha, currently on patrol
Alphard is a Scapha II, leadship Alphard Task Force
Spica is a Scapha I, Spike
Trojan is a Trojan II, scoutship for ATF
Neapolis is a Kuati, picket ship for ATF

Second Fleet: aka Beta, currently over Illyria
Vi Unitatis Thru is a Scapha II, leadship of Vi Task Force
Pompeii is a Trojan II, Scout for VTF
Ignis is a Scapha I, Fire

Lothario Fleet: aka Delta, currently over Illyria
Pride of Lothario is a Scapha I
Frozen Myst is a civilian jumpship, commands Tenara 1

Fleet Tenders: aka Tenara 1 < Latin for Tender >
Using numbers... generic jumpers so Invader-like.

#2 -  " Duo "
#3 -  " Tres "
#4 -  " Quattuor "
#5 -  " Quīnque "

Fleet Tenders: aka Tenara 2
Republic of Justice is a civilian jumpship, commands Tenara 2
#7 - " Septem "
#8 - " Octo "
#9 - " Novem "

* Ex-DCA Trondheim, Kutai-class, now MHS Trondheim.

Current Jumpship forces attached: RoJ and Octo; Beta and Novem; Alpha, Septem is attached to Delta.

Code: [Select]
Cyclonas Aero
IS TW non-box set
80 tons 
BV: 1,210
Cost: 4,802,653 C-bills

Movement: 6/9
Engine: 320
Heat Sinks: 13

Structural Integrity: 8
Armor: 241 (Ferro-Aluminum)
                        Armor
-----------------------------
Nose                       73
Left Wing                  60
Right Wing                 60
Aft                        48


Weapon                         Loc  Heat
----------------------------------------
Machine Gun                    NOS     0
Machine Gun                    NOS     0
SRM 4                          NOS     3
SRM 6                          RWG     4
AC/5                           RWG     1
SRM 6                          LWG     4
AC/5                           LWG     1
Machine Gun                    AFT     0
Machine Gun                    AFT     0
Machine Gun                    NOS     0
Machine Gun                    NOS     0

Ammo                           Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
SRM 4 Ammo                     NOS    25
SRM 6 Ammo                     RWG    15
AC/5 Ammo                      RWG    20
SRM 6 Ammo                     LWG    15
AC/5 Ammo                      LWG    20
Machine Gun Ammo               AFT   200

(  >:D You all know me... I have something up my sleeve... )

Pi

( Friendly reminder, PAGE 40 folks! ) Edit: Spelling errors.. perfect now!  ;)
« Last Edit: 19 November 2018, 18:14:39 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1191 on: 11 November 2018, 21:49:20 »
Taurian Concordat 2410-2419 (designs list)

Kannon
When news of the battle at Kannon first reached the Taurian Concordat in 2401 it was assumed that later reports would correct it. When the more complete and comprehensive reports filtered in over 2402 it was still a shock.  Despite more than one wise-crack about 'paper mache Lyran fighters', a serious study was required.  Shannon Bream was again tapped by Lena to lead that study.  The Kannon study produced three conclusions:
  • Something went quite wrong with the command and control of the missile tidal wave.  Apparently, each Atago shot down was killed 5 times over.  Exactly what went wrong is pure speculation, but the apparent unwillingness of the Lyran fighters to even use their on-board weapons suggests this can only be the product of massive incompetence at the command level.  Although the TCN has had a healthy respect for Lyran design starting with the Shu, it seems Lyran commanders are incompetent, traitorous, or both.
  • Naval Lasers are far more effective in an anti-Aerospace roll in major battles than previously expected.  Estimates suggest the Naval Lasers of the DC fleet sometimes hit and destroyed multiple fighters in a single shot.  That's good news for the Taurian Concordat which has chosen Naval Lasers as their primary energy weapon.
  • Every major battle is, in the end, decided by a wall of battle, a form of combat that the TCN is woefully unprepared for.  The highest priority should be placed on providing a credible strategically mobile wall of battle capable of decisively determining the outcome.
In 2403 Lena Wilhight retires after 23 years, confident that Shannon Bream can take over effectively.  Shannon immediately commissions new designs to address learnings from the battle of Kannon.

Building the Wall
Even with a substantial increase in budgets projected for the coming decade, the disparity with greater powers requires careful design tradeoffs.  Two budget approaches were investigated: a refit of existing warships and a variant of the Taurus I taking advantage of the TC experience with massive fire control.  The former was eventually discarded as infeasible given the unfortunate weakness of small warship armor.  The design winner was the Nova.  While the armor could not be improved, the Capital Weapon array features a massive battery of 38 NL55s arrayed around 9 NAC 20s spread across 3 bays.  All of this firepower is carefully arranged so that a Tick can nestle amongst it without being harmed.  The combined firepower is 3 times more than a Taurus I at extreme ranges and brutal in NAC 20 ranges while retaining the customary smothering TC missile defense. 
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Nova Destroyer Station
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $630,030,000.00
Magazine Cost: $8,740,000.00
BV2: 44,707

Mass: 100,000
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust: .75 (with Tick)
Maximum Thrust: 1 (with Tick)
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
38 Naval Laser 55
9 Naval AC 20
1000 Machine Gun (IS)

Class/Model/Name: Nova
Mass: 100,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 1,200.00
Thrust
Safe: .75 (with Tick)
Maximum:         1 (with Tick)
Controls: 100.00
Structural Integrity: 1 1,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 3770 Single 3,677.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 40000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 13,360.00
Armor: 315 pts Standard 393.00
Fore: 65
Fore-Left/Right: 60/60
Aft-Left/Right: 45/45
Aft: 40

Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Escape Pods: 41 287.00

Crew And Passengers:
47 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 470.00
18 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 126.00
214 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 1,498.00
35 Bay Personnel 0.00
164 Steerage Passengers 820.00  (Marines and a few extra)

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
38 Naval Laser 55 Nose 3230 2090 (209-C) Extreme-C 41,800.00
9 Naval AC 20 Nose 540 1800 (180-C) 22,500.00 with 360 rounds
200 Machine Gun (IS) FL 400 (40-C) 100.00  with 4000 rounds
200 Machine Gun (IS) FR 400 (40-C) 100.00  with 4000 rounds
200 Machine Gun (IS) AL 400 (40-C) 100.00  with 4000 rounds
200 Machine Gun (IS) AR 400 (40-C) 100.00  with 4000 rounds
200 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 400 (40-C) 100.00  with 4000 rounds

Equipment and Bays:
5595 tons Cargo (Tick + supplies for a year) 1 door
7 Smallcraft bays (6 Crestbreakers and 1 David) 4 doors

Maximizing Aerospace Fighters
Testing revealed that the ghost fighters concept is viable against stationary opponents.  While invading forces are near-stationary for the time of a land invasion improving the targeting is essential.  Dusting off the warship refit designs, a new concept for the Kutai was created---an up-engined raider fast enough to avoid other ships with a sensor suite providing deep visibility into the battlefield.  The design was such a radical rethink that it was given a new name: Matador.  The Matador is designed for survivability through speed and massive point defense.  With 4.5g of acceleration, no fighter bearing missiles can close with it.  For unburdened fighters, the heavy strike 4.5g designs common in warship combat cannot close either as the Matador can always boost perpendicular to their closing velocity.  The Matador is designed to operate alone using it's overwhelming strategic speed and sensors to provide a comprehensive view of the battlespace and act on opportunities as they arise.   When forced into combat, the Matador is designed to literally run circles around an opponent while strafing with naval lasers.
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Matador Raider
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $4,948,132,000.00
Magazine Cost: $4,379,000.00
BV2: 27,179

Mass: 200,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 6
Maximum Thrust: 9
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
12 Naval Laser 55
1558 Machine Gun (IS)
30 LRM 20 (IS)

Class/Model/Name: Matador
Mass: 200,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 72,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 6
Maximum: 9
Controls: 500.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (6 Integrity) 90,500.00
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 40.00
Structural Integrity: 40 8,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1200 Single 776.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 20000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 1,891.00
Armor: 120 pts Standard 160.00
Fore: 16
Fore-Left/Right: 18/18
Aft-Left/Right: 23/23
Aft: 22

Dropship Capacity: 0.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Escape Pods: 54 378.00

Crew And Passengers:
64 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 640.00
21 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 147.00
289 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 2,023.00
10 Bay Personnel 0.00
154 Steerage Passengers 770.00  (Marines and a few extra)

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
6 Naval Laser 55 AL 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 AR 510 330 (33-C) 6,600.00
10 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 20 (2-C) 5.00
10 Machine Gun (IS) FL 20 (2-C) 5.00
10 Machine Gun (IS) FR 20 (2-C) 5.00
500 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 1000 (100-C) 250.00
500 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 1000 (100-C) 250.00
500 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 1000 (100-C) 250.00
14 Machine Gun (IS) AL 28 (2.8-C) 7.00
14 Machine Gun (IS) AR 28 (2.8-C) 7.00
10 LRM 20 (IS) FL 60 120 (12-C) 100.00
10 LRM 20 (IS) FR 60 120 (12-C) 100.00
10 LRM 20 (IS) Nose 60 120 (12-C) 100.00

All MGs have 100 shots and all LRMs have 24 shots

Equipment Mass
NCSS Large 500.00
Cargo                                      1983
Smallcraft bays                           2  (1 David, 1 Cargo)

Information
The Siesta highway's success has encouraged the TCN admiralty to search for additional methods to squeeze out reaction time, finding several sources.
  • The admiralty has pre-arranged response policies based on threat structure with the Protector up to and including mortal threats to the TC.  This eliminates delays in coordinating with Taurus.
  • The Fleet base is shifting to Diefenbaker from Midale since Diefenbaker offers single jump access to half of all TC colonies, including the entirety of the Pleiades cluster.
  • Related to the move, the Siesta highway network is going to be adjusted to centralize on Diefenbaker with a slightly tighter solution.  This changeover will happen quite slowly and be publicized so as to avoid disrupting or stranding merchant traffic.  New build Siestas will first be used, with old ones deprecated until traffic is driven to zero.  Merchants that violate the deprecation will be time-penalized on refills so it's in their best interest to switch over to the new network.
  • The TCN has advised reaching agreements promoting trade and peace with the UHC and all parties have agreed with agreements signed at Malagrotta.  The Malagrotta accords provide a formal declaration of non-aggression, protocols for fair trade, and judicial mechanisms for settling any disputes which may arise in the future.  As a gift, the TC is creating a Siesta highway network connecting the disparate planets of the UHC and integrating them with the spinward TC.  For the TCN, this provides a deeper information network, improves speed of transmission through higher merchant traffic, and substantially improves the threat environment for the spinward TC.  (See attachments for maps.)
The above changes reduce the the most active frontier to 5 or fewer jumps from Diefenbaker pushing reaction times down to less than a week.

Logistics
A logistics simplification program is run, reducing all ammo-using weapons to LRMs for ASF scale weapons, machine guns for point defense, and NAC/20s for capital warfare. This simplifies ammunition requirements while providing particularly long engagement ranges.  To support this effort, a Rager refit is created and applied systematically.
Code: [Select]
90 ton Rager II Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Weight: 90 tons
BV: 1,840
Cost: 5,978,205 C-bills
Movement: 6/9
Engine: 360
Heat Sinks: 10
Fuel Points: 400 (5.0 tons)
Structural Integrity: 9
Armor: 403 (Ferro-Aluminum)
Nose: 121
Left/right Wing: 101
Aft: 80

Weapons Loc Heat
2x LRM 15 NOS 5
3x Machine Gun NOS 0
4x Machine Gun RWG 0
4x Machine Gun LWG 0
Machine Gun Ammo: 200 shots
LRM 15 Ammo: 48 shots

Ares Conventions
The TCN admiralty regards nuclear weapons as an essential tool for asymetric warfare in the defense of the Concordat against determined assault by the greater powers of the Inner Sphere.  As such, they suggest simply copying the language of the UHC with the additional proviso that the TC will not engage in first use against civilian targets.

Deployments
The Matadors will patrol the jump network.   The Nova and Taurus I fleets will be based at Diefenbaker ready to respond to emergencies as/when they arise.  About half of the Aerospace Fighters are based with the fleet while the other half are scattered across the worlds in defensive bases.  Heavily Industrialized worlds have 2 air divisions of ASF, Industrialized worlds have an air division of ASF, major colonies have a flight of ASF, and minor colonies have an ASF wing.

Budget
The TCN has decided to increase the readiness of all frontline forces {ASF, Warships, Taurus I, and Nova} (OOC to 120%).  In addition, the TCN has decided to deeply emphasize strategic mobility by radically increasing pay, schooling, and other support for astrogators (OOC, represented by 1%).
Code: [Select]
Cost/unit #active Maintenance percent
Kutai 6092 2 1474 121
Marathon 621 7 435 100 All in Taurus orbit
Independence 4567 0 0 0 Mothballed
Fighters 5 1685 1011 120
Smallcraft 10 312 312 100
Mother 933 6 565 101 1 servicing Siesta network, 5 ready for action
Taurus I v2 346 5 208 120
Tick v2 235 5 118 100 1 per Taurus I, 1 per Nova
Light DS 300 8 0 0 8 mothballed
Siesta 131 20 262 100
Siesta Tanker 160 1 16 100
Total Maintenance 4401
The Matador and Nova are the primary new designs.
Code: [Select]
Prototyping costs 2784
Matador refit 2474
Nova refit 315
                  
Most of the budget goes towards building the new Nova class destroyer stations.
Code: [Select]
New Construction 14780
Matador 0 2 0 Refit
Nova 630 8 5048 New Build
Mother 933 3 2799 New Build
Fighters 309 1545 All Ragers
Smallcraft 156 1560
Siesta 131 6 786 One supports the fleet as a collier, the others build out the UHC jump network
Tick v2 235 10 2350 8 for the Nova class, 2 for the Taurus Is
Taurus I v2 346 2 692 Host ground forces
The TC has made a strategic decision to increase research by a factor of 8.
Code: [Select]

Research (Advancement) 1000
Savings from last turn -2
Savings for next turn 40

Edit: The TCN will lobby with the Protector to shift the army's transport budget to the TCN.  The TCN can transport and simultaneously land a regiment at a lower cost than the army's Dropship/Jumpship approach (2.5B instead of 2.8B).  When landing in two waves is acceptable, this can further drop to 1.25B instead of 2.8B.   Just tell us how many regiments of army transport are required and give us the budget.
Edit: Small update to Matador & added links.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1192 on: 11 November 2018, 22:02:04 »
...Beginning Turn 7...

You have two Turn 7s.  One here and one here.  The new overrides the old?

Also: the offer was 4 Billion for the Independence (not the Kutai).  Still want it?

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1193 on: 11 November 2018, 22:07:06 »
> Look elsewhere... <

TT
« Last Edit: 11 November 2018, 22:27:04 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1194 on: 11 November 2018, 22:56:00 »
Matador can't be that fast if it's a Kutai variant, thrust can only be adjusted +/-1 from the base design.

Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1195 on: 11 November 2018, 23:23:45 »
Matador can't be that fast if it's a Kutai variant, thrust can only be adjusted +/-1 from the base design.
Huh, did the language on the refit rules just change?  My recollection (which I read pretty carefully) was that there are constraints on SI and tonnage but not on thrust, with variants having different rules that constrained thrust but relaxed SI & tonnage constraints.

I can roll with it, but I'd like confirmation before redoing my turn.

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1196 on: 11 November 2018, 23:30:33 »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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Lagrange

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1197 on: 11 November 2018, 23:49:21 »
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rzh-GEbKmiqNfPPj-zQj-9ZqiWKz11MmtqM73815wOo/edit#gid=1453108897

Under Items for Purchase
Bottom page, line 24.
Yes, I know where the wording is.  I just want to know if this change is official.  Previously, a refit was not a variant. 

I'm also unclear on whether a variant of a variant is allowed to have thrust change by 2. 

Depending on answers, you may yet get a Kutai  :)

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1198 on: 12 November 2018, 03:55:01 »
Quote
Must do R&D for variant of the ship(=50% of new model's cost) before refitting.

That part of refitting has always been there as far as I recall.

Meanwhile my budget has been adjusted, due to sales to the Marians.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #1199 on: 12 November 2018, 04:16:45 »
Try this:
...
Ah, no, I just wondered if someone still has a filled online spreadsheet of the design or something. Guess I'll just recreate them by hand before modifying them. Need to be able to have something I could potentially refit the old ships to, but possibly also a new design to adapt to a changing battlefield. I have a rather ... small force list. 2 ships?
Btw, did maingunnery put a list of names for existing ships down somewhere?
They are named after existing planets, but I don't know which, as of yet.

What was the ruling on fighters now? Last I've read was a 40/1 ratio of std. to capital damage, and ... I think that's still too much. I'd recommend 20/1, with fighters dealing half damage against capital armour, so as to not kill dropships before they are even developed.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2018, 05:32:12 by UnLimiTeD »
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